Im not even a baseball fan but I love this movie. It needed the drama they created to lay out the point on how they were changing the game. So one of the old timers had to be the “villain”.
Yeah. Didn’t really mention Chavez and Tejada much at all either. Those five were a huge reason the A’s were a great team that year. Moneyball, while it was an entertaining movie, made it seem like Billy Beane took a complete cast of misfits he got off the Bill James waiver wire and made them into a World Series contender.
They also forgot the epilogue, in which, after a few decades of penny-pinching and doing everything on the cheap, never having any superstars, the team became a sad, homeless joke.
Read Lewis's book, Beane did not wake up one day believing in Sabermetrics, it was a years-long process in his evolution as GM. Howe was hired specifically to implement the front office's strategy for the roster they assembled. NO ONE ever argued with Beane, people feared his temper that stems from his desire to win. So don't view Moneyball as 'real life', only parts of it are real, see it as a parallel experience to the extremely insightful original book.
There had to be an antagonist. The amorphous blob called MLB cannot be the enemy. Every MLB game has some "old school" guy that ends over dramatized into either the protagonist or the antagonist. My favorite aspect of this movie is the docu-drama style. Very well done.
I read an article in which Howe reported that he was supposed to be in the movie itself, but then they wanted real actors portraying those roles instead. So I got the impression that Howe agreed to have his name used for the movie because he was going to portray himself, but when he got replaced he had no idea that he was going to be one of the antagonists. I think if the movie really wanted to make some unnuanced villain out of the A's manager, they should've changed his name. It's not like Peter Brand was a real guy.
In reality art probably was a lame duck manager, because he was in real life, Hollywood just over focused it as part of the story, probably one of the best seasons a lame duck manager ever had.
Art Howe got a raw deal. By all accounts Art was a solid dude and not the sour dude Seymor Hoffman portrayed. Great actor by the way (RIP). Great movie. Please tell me Beane gave the guys the business when they were partying after a loss really happened. *silence* that's what losing sounds like. Please
It was still Phillip Seymour Hoffman's greatest role, tour de force performance. I believed he actually was a MLB manager irrespective of whether it was Art Howe.
Art Howe got a raw deal. I got to talk with him at the A’s Fanfest in 1999. Polite. Respectful. Easy to talk to. He even took the time to talk to my son. The Art Howe in that movie is anything like the REAL Art Howe.
@@carltonbanks5470 Because it's a great movie. Viewers in general do not care if this scene or that scene really happened. It's about being engrossed in a story with compelling characters and dialogue.
I know the movie isn't totally accurate, but I still love it! Also, my dad caught a Billy Beane foul ball in the Kingdome in Seattle way back in the day, and he never lets me forget it! :)
For what its worth, I never felt like the film portrayed Art as one of the bad guys. To me it read like he was a really good manager, forced to adjust to an entirely new understanding of the sport. And given that the next season was inexplicably not promised for him, he pushed back and made choices any other manager would have at the time, instead of bowing down to every one of Billy's controversial decisions. Also the way PSH played him allowed the viewer to really feel for the character. I was always rooting for Art in the movie
He was the only old-schooler that you felt sorry for. His ‘you’re killing this team’ line was the one moment where the audience really doubted the system
It is because people don't understand nuance. Art acted like any seasoned manager would in the film who had no contract next year and the front office trying to micromanage him.
Keep in mind Moneyball was a nominee in 2012 for Best Picture! Sure, it plays with reality a bit for dramatic effect. But it’s a class film that I recommend to non ⚾️ fans as well.
I'm a big fan Of Art Howe, growing up in Houston, Howe was the every day thrid basemen in the mid to late 70's, good hitter and fantastic glove, he was also part of the last out for Nolan Ryan's 5th no hitter, Dusty Baker bounces out 3rd to 1st; Howe to Denny Walling!
I will say it has some of the best attention to detail of any sports movie I’ve ever seen. The Fox Sports Net decal on the outfield wall, the Greg Papa audio, everything from that era was depicted perfectly
I thought "moneyball" was a good movie, but they really did do Art Howe dirty. A lot of the scenes there never happened, but picture most true-story based movies to change the story to some extent.
It's a great movie, even if it is loose and fast with the facts. Like the old adage: when the fact becomes legend, print the legend. Art Howe is a good dude, and I remember that even us none A's fans outside the Bay Area were genuinely happy with how he managed his team. And what a fun team that was to watch.
Holywood always does this, understandably.... movies need drama, villain's and character development.... in regards to Art he was sort of a villain, and David Justice not being on board to be a leader straight away was character development for him to go from unwilling to willining
Yeah, they need a narrative arc so you have to take creative liberties. I think they walked the line of portraying the spirit of the real life events while telling a great story very well. They don't portray Art as a bad guy at all either. He's portrayed as a guy who feels disrespected and on the verge of being cast out with the trash even though he's always done his job well. He isn't included in discussions and his opinion isn't respected. They show that all the guys like him and he treats them really well. One of the big issues between Billy and Art is Art not playing Hatty at first and Art says: "I like the guy. Really. But first base is the moon to him" Another issue with him and Billy is his contract where Art says: "A one year contract means the same thing to a manager as it does to a player. There's not a lot of faith there, and that's odd coming off a 100 win season." "If you don't win the last game of the season, no one is gonna care" "So.. it's on me now?" "No. It's on me" When Billy trades away players to force Art to play the team his way, Art responds: "You're killing this team." He's not portrayed as a "villian", he's a true antagonist. He just fundamentally disagrees with our protaganists beliefs, but he isn't a bad person in the slightest. And Art should be happy he got Philip Seymour Hoffman to portray him. The man was a legend and he gave that role so many layers
If you are a good writer that understands nuance, you do NOT need to make so many simplistic liberties with the truth. They could have let the antagonist simply be their slow start to the season, and more focus on the minnesota twins playoff series.
I remember Art Howe from when he managed the Astros....all I remember is that he seemed pretty laid back, easy going type guy, that everyone liked. Besides P.S. Hoffman not looking like Howe at all, I didn't think Howe was like that at all. It seemed to me, that Hoffman was was just playing a stereotypical coach/manager, and that he never spoke with Art or studied his character. Other than that, I thought it was a pretty good movie...despite not being a fan of Pitt. BTW, one of my favorite baseball movies is Mr. Baseball with Tom Selleck.
@@kevineiford2153 every team recognizes the stats that are more important. The Dodgers and Yankees care more about OBP and OPS than BA, unlike they did in the past. Doesn't mean they're using the 'moneyball' strategy tho The fuckin devil rays seem to be tho. O's too an extent. But that's just financially. The "moneyball" strategy in terms of how it was portrayed is long extinct nowadays
The thing people don’t get is that it isn’t interesting to have a movie or tell a story that has no conflict, is it more interesting to have David Justice just be on board with his role on the team or have to be convinced to lead the team?
You have an architypical story model in your head and force the reality in it, because it is not interesting enough. So, by molding it, the reality becomes unreal and you have created fictional universe with its own characters and rules. They do it in so called biopics, but it would be honest to just call them fiction, because they are not based on reality but fictional story models.
I hope Art Howe can understand that even though his portrayal may be inaccurate, he never in the movie came across as wrong or stupid. I think he acted entirely within reason in the film. At no point did a decision made by that character not make sense. His motivations may have been presented as counter to B.B.'s but that isn't inherently villainous or anything.
This is a great movie, period. Like it’s not just a great baseball movie. Brad Pitt and Philip Seymour Hoffman (RIP) are world class actors and Jonah Hill was excellent. Chris Pratt is always great, this was one of his earlier movies I believe before Guardians.
I agreed with Dave Stewart completley. The depiction of Manager Art Howe in "Money Ball" was an absolute disgrace. I worked for the A's for many years as an Usher in Guest Services. Art Howe treated people with respect and dignity. He would be at fan events and greet everybody at every table. He is a warm hearted and kind man. Not the unfeeling prick that he was depicted as in the movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman just mailed it in. I can't believe that an Actor who was in so many great movies like "Boogie Nights", "Capote", "Owning Mahoney", etc. had to take a drab part like this. .....If they needed a villian that bad NY Yankees Owner George Steinbrenner would have been perfect. Have George read the paper and scream "I will destroy that F'ing money ball concept of the west coast. Screw Beane and his small market team." Than have George throw an expensive bottle of Champagne right through the window. Audiences coast to coast would have loved that. ....Please ask Beane if he hated Art Howe that much, or if some Hollywood big shot made them depict Art Howe that way. I have friends in Texas who say they will never forgive Beane for making a good man into such an A-Hole.
@@BIueharvest I agree with this comment. PSH gets his direction from a director, a script, and a producer. You can't blame him for reading the words from the script he was given...
I’ll 3rd what the 2 commenters before me said. Yeah, it was BS how they portrayed Howe, but don’t put it on Philip Seymour Hoffman. And I don’t think it was Beane’s doing, either.
Hollywood shoehorns this and other true stories into the “Sports Underdog” framework because audiences like it. Rocky punches meat, Daniel waxes cars, and Billy Beane uses statistics. You need a villain whether there was one in real life or not. It was a very good movie.
I think anyone who was following baseball back in 2002 and remembers that A’s run knew the first time they saw the movie that they took some creative liberties with it, but that’s fine. At the end of the day, most of those creative liberties were just played for comedic effect or for a bit of added drama. They still did a great job of capturing the overall feel and vibe of that season and tell the story. Their job is to make an entertaining film that’s captivating from start to finish. And some creative licensing may have been required in order to make a better overall movie and I think that’s fine
I’m old enough to have seen Art Howe on TV playing for Houston in the 70’s. PSH was a terrific actor (in the right roles) but he was no more Art Howe than Gordie Howe in Moneyball.
I also like that in their Fenway conversation, Beane congratulates John Henry on hiring Bill James, to which Henry rejoins something like, "I don't understand why someone hasn't hired that guy sooner."
Hollywood has a history of bastardizing stories. Very good movie, I watch it regularly and I have heard often the portrayal of Art Howe was deplorable. I remember when the movie When The Game Stands Tall, about the De La Salle Spartans in Concord and their streak of 151 games, so many parts of that movie took place over 10 years but they forced it into a one season campaign. I get the point but I would have preferred the producers to use a fake school name. Basically nothing of that movie was accurate.
The film was good because it took creative liberties. That has to be done in order to make a good narrative drama. It's not about being 100% true to the facts, it's about being true to the heart and soul of the story.
i thought Art Howe was dead lol i was spooked when i saw him. for some reason i remember hearing he died. maybe im thinking of Phillip Seymour Hoffman lmao
David Justice: "None of my scenes were real, but that's what Hollywood does" Scott Hatteburg: "It was great man, I got to meet Chris Pratt and Brad Pitt!!!" But, on a more serious note, I think it's pretty admirable they all spoke willingly and without needing to about Art Howe and how they thought of him as a manager and person he was on the real squad.
First off. Loved Moneyball. Have watched it many times. I didn’t mind Art Howe in the movie. There were scenes where he asked Billy straight up what was going on in the organization. Also the scene where he told Hatty he was up for Byrnes, was pretty cool. All time classic film.
It was a movie based on history yes but it wasn't a documentary. Seems like with David Justice I put in to move the plot along to explain things the audiences not necessary to recreate real life scenes. Art they probably needed some sort of villain so coach drew the short end of that stick
Art howe in the movie looks like the players manager the players make him out to be but idk if they what we happening behind the scenes because usually what happens between the brass should stay between them.
Art Howe was definitely disappointed in his portrayal of the movie but now today he even chuckles about it and says ahh man it’s Hollywood I completely understand the drama and the magic of the film and the fans absolutely loved it and so did I he even admits that it was hell of good movie.
I want to know what Hatteberg thinks of the scene at his home. It has the best lines in the movie... Beane: It's not that hard, Scott. Tell him, Wash... Washington: It's incredibly hard. Hatteberg: You want me to take Giambi's spot at first base? Beane: Yup. Hatteberg: What about the fans? Washington: Yeah, maybe I can teach one of them... And the scene ended on a tear-jerking emotional moment... Overall, the best scene in the movie.
At the 3:39 mark, don't be raggin' on the movie FEVER PITCH. It stars Jimmy Fallon and Drew Barrymore in a romantic comedy with a baseball backdrop. It was filmed around the Boston Red Sox winning the actual World Series. Good movie and your girl will like it too.
This movie not having Mulder, Zito and Hudson as a major point is like making a movie about the 2001 Patriots and just having Tom Brady be a background extra.
@@heyuncledev Except Tejada(MVP), Chavez, and Dye aren't featured literally at all either. The movie focuses on Hatteberg, Jeremy Giambi, and David Justice whom were a small part of the teams success with a small combined WAR. The problem is the movie focuses on analytics around OBP instead of focusing on the actual reason the team was good. You can't make a Bulls movie only focusing on Steve Kerr without any MJ or Pippen or a Yankees movie focusing only on Scott Brosius and Jim Leyritz. The truth is those 3 players probably had less than 10% to do with how good that team was. It's an extremely misleading movie for what made that team actually great instead it focuses on some scrubs who were okay additions but not even close to why they were successful.
I heard Manager Art Howe hated the movie on how he was portrayed. In the movie you can see Art and Billy Beane had an odd relationship as GM & Manager. In reality they had a great relationship and really didn't have too much conflict
“Nah man the Yankees are paying half your salary….thats what the NY Yankees think of you. They’re willing to pay 3.5 million just to play against you.”
It was a good movie, but I was disappointed they did not have Hudson, Mulder, and Zito. The pitching is what got them there. Not the hitting. Its remarkably hard to get 3 aces for that cheap. It should have definitely been apart of the story, but explaining WAR in simple terms to the viewer was probably too difficult because you couldn't say "They get on base." "They're better than an average replacement player" Just doesn't have the same ring to it. Also that team was World Series worthy. Not just American league worthy. It reminded me a lot of the 2003 Marlins. I knew my Yankees were going to lose to whomever came out of the NL because we lacked pitching (& still do). The Cubs would have beaten us that year as well. Which is why Cashman should have been fired back in 2004 for refusing to bring in pitching for 20 years! He must have watched the movie & never figured you need pitching!
Never understood the hate that Phillip Seymour Hoffman's portrayal got. I thought they did a good job showing his toughness and desire not to be pushed around. Besides, in the films climax, Howe is shown fully supporting their system, which is shown to be the reason why they won that last game.
Just gonna say, I don't play baseball. I work on contracts in another industry and that scene where Hatteberg gets signed hit home for me. Pun fully intended. I guess it doesn't have to be actually what happened, but there is an understanding in the storytelling that resonates outside of baseball.
I hope that Jason Giambi hasn't seen this movie, and I hope he never does I doubt he'd ever want to see his late brother cast in a negative light ever again
While true stories can be great on their own, the creation of an antagonist can make them more appealing to the masses. Hoffman did an excellent job in his role, whether it was accurate of Howe or not- Hoffman simply makes the overall story better. When the A’s go on to win that streak, Hoffman allowed the viewers to be much more vested by having made it seem like Beane was required to overcome hardship and obstacles in getting the lineup he wanted on the field. Think about how boring it would be if everyone on the team bought in from day 1. Hoffman helps make the movie great real or not- RIP.
Art Howe was a great coach. That team had a stud rotation and brought in a stud closer from the Jays in Koch. Not to mention Chavez, Dye,Justice, Tejada. The movie was garbage but they did have some of the best shot scenes in any sports movie. Specifically the hatteberg home run scene.
It's a shame the directors decided to portray Art so poorly. Hate when they do that. Winning Time was a great show last year but they also portrayed Jerry West very poorly and unfairly...
Maybe the people that lived it, were not aware of how they really were. Not directly, but they were ignoring some of their character "flaws". Great movie.
Ironically the opposite message from moneyball. Billy Beane's scouting room was full of guys who thought they could build a winning team by listening to the crack of a bat
I think that the friction between Art and Billy in the movie was about the different authority that a coach and a GM have. Billy is trying to take the line up card but he knows he doesn't have the juice and he would never go over Art's head. Also when Art says that he is managing the team in a way that he can explain in job interviews, he is telling Billy "If your experiment doesn't work then I will be on the street." What's really telling is when Billy trades Pena, he gets what he wants and he totally takes any possible fallout off Art Howe's shoulders.
A baseball movie written by a guy who knows nothing about baseball, starring a guy who knows nothing about baseball. Brad Pitt has admitted as much. As a huge baseball fan, I found the movie cringe worthy.
If there’s no tension, if there’s no drama, no arguments, then it’s boring. At that point it would be a documentary and you tell me… how many documentaries have you seen in the big screen?
I’ll be honest, I never watched the movie and disliked Art. I thought they portrayed him as someone who did what he thought was best for the team, loved the players, and stood by his beliefs. I actually felt bad for him in the movie even though I thought he was wrong. I thought Hoffman portrayed him as a very honorable man.
Glad these guys stand up for Art.
He came to New York and became a mannequin in the dugout.
Im not even a baseball fan but I love this movie. It needed the drama they created to lay out the point on how they were changing the game. So one of the old timers had to be the “villain”.
@@bearmassaro To be fair, it's the 2003 Mets.
Perfect casting of actors for Hudson, Zito, and Mulder. Can't have the story without those guys in it. Wait a second.....
Yeah. Didn’t really mention Chavez and Tejada much at all either. Those five were a huge reason the A’s were a great team that year. Moneyball, while it was an entertaining movie, made it seem like Billy Beane took a complete cast of misfits he got off the Bill James waiver wire and made them into a World Series contender.
Not to mention MVP Tejada
and no mention of the league MVP Miguel Tejada lol
They also forgot the epilogue, in which, after a few decades of penny-pinching and doing everything on the cheap, never having any superstars, the team became a sad, homeless joke.
@@craighembree3101reginald martinez Jackson , Rickey , canseco , McGwire - bubkiss to you ?
Read Lewis's book, Beane did not wake up one day believing in Sabermetrics, it was a years-long process in his evolution as GM. Howe was hired specifically to implement the front office's strategy for the roster they assembled. NO ONE ever argued with Beane, people feared his temper that stems from his desire to win. So don't view Moneyball as 'real life', only parts of it are real, see it as a parallel experience to the extremely insightful original book.
Even head scout Grady came back a couple years later. The book is fiction but the movie is egregious
Beane has a desire to win? That’s hilarious
I think moneyball actually predated Beane. In moneyball the book, sabermetrics were being used by Branch Rickey in the 40's
You mean he didn't meet Pete/Paul DePodesta in a parking garage and call him a "good egg"
They’d been doing saber metrics for a whole decade leading up to the ‘02 season
There had to be an antagonist. The amorphous blob called MLB cannot be the enemy. Every MLB game has some "old school" guy that ends over dramatized into either the protagonist or the antagonist. My favorite aspect of this movie is the docu-drama style. Very well done.
I read an article in which Howe reported that he was supposed to be in the movie itself, but then they wanted real actors portraying those roles instead. So I got the impression that Howe agreed to have his name used for the movie because he was going to portray himself, but when he got replaced he had no idea that he was going to be one of the antagonists.
I think if the movie really wanted to make some unnuanced villain out of the A's manager, they should've changed his name. It's not like Peter Brand was a real guy.
The A's ownership should have been portrayed as the antagonist that they are. Not fair to Art.
Agreed. Criticism almost never falls in league front offices, owners and mgt. it’s typically on players and union. And even fans!
The truth isn't interesting enough!
In reality art probably was a lame duck manager, because he was in real life, Hollywood just over focused it as part of the story, probably one of the best seasons a lame duck manager ever had.
Art Howe got a raw deal. By all accounts Art was a solid dude and not the sour dude Seymor Hoffman portrayed. Great actor by the way (RIP). Great movie. Please tell me Beane gave the guys the business when they were partying after a loss really happened. *silence* that's what losing sounds like. Please
Ehhhhh. Art was a little dry let’s be fair.
I know it’s 10 months later but had to say it.
It was still Phillip Seymour Hoffman's greatest role, tour de force performance. I believed he actually was a MLB manager irrespective of whether it was Art Howe.
Hoffman was amazing. He and Robert Downey Jr are great.
It was definitely dramatized but yeah that’s how billy was.
Oh Wannnh….cry me a river.
Well now he and other players can go around and do laid interviews and talk about how he got a raw deal!
Art Howe got a raw deal. I got to talk with him at the A’s Fanfest in 1999. Polite. Respectful. Easy to talk to. He even took the time to talk to my son. The Art Howe in that movie is anything like the REAL Art Howe.
He did get a raw deal. The writer only interviewed him for 10 minutes. They made Howe the villain.
So did Grady Fuson.
I mean just cause he was nice all the years prior doesn’t mean he wasn’t on board with the moneyball strategy like it was done in the movie
His skill style was accurate… old mentality. Behind the times.
I just absolutely hate that they completely ignore that they had the best pitching rotation in baseball with Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and Mark Mulder.
They also had Miguel tejada
Fr bro, they did the defensive side of that team dirty asf
@@CPAClass2010 And Chavez and Dye.
They ignored this and did Art dirty. Why do people keep saying it's a great movie then??
@@carltonbanks5470 Because it's a great movie. Viewers in general do not care if this scene or that scene really happened. It's about being engrossed in a story with compelling characters and dialogue.
Art Howe seemed so sad 😭
Yea, I really feel bad for him. That must suck
Yeah that would suck being portrayed as a villain
I know the movie isn't totally accurate, but I still love it! Also, my dad caught a Billy Beane foul ball in the Kingdome in Seattle way back in the day, and he never lets me forget it! :)
For what its worth, I never felt like the film portrayed Art as one of the bad guys. To me it read like he was a really good manager, forced to adjust to an entirely new understanding of the sport. And given that the next season was inexplicably not promised for him, he pushed back and made choices any other manager would have at the time, instead of bowing down to every one of Billy's controversial decisions. Also the way PSH played him allowed the viewer to really feel for the character. I was always rooting for Art in the movie
Exactly! Perfectly said.
But in reality, Howe apparently understood and bought in to what Beane was doing. But the movie needed an antagonist….
He was the only old-schooler that you felt sorry for. His ‘you’re killing this team’ line was the one moment where the audience really doubted the system
It is because people don't understand nuance. Art acted like any seasoned manager would in the film who had no contract next year and the front office trying to micromanage him.
he actually did have a contract for next season that was just a plain lie in the film
RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman
Unfortunately he was a heroin junkie.
Keep in mind Moneyball was a nominee in 2012 for Best Picture! Sure, it plays with reality a bit for dramatic effect. But it’s a class film that I recommend to non ⚾️ fans as well.
Great to see the Legendary Dave Stewart after all these years; Class Act & Dominant underrated Playoffs Star
I'm a big fan Of Art Howe, growing up in Houston, Howe was the every day thrid basemen in the mid to late 70's, good hitter and fantastic glove, he was also part of the last out for Nolan Ryan's 5th no hitter, Dusty Baker bounces out 3rd to 1st; Howe to Denny Walling!
I will say it has some of the best attention to detail of any sports movie I’ve ever seen. The Fox Sports Net decal on the outfield wall, the Greg Papa audio, everything from that era was depicted perfectly
I watched a number on Moneyball clips last month. They were so good I actually bought the movie! Watched it 3 times.
Also agree with Dave Stewart, For Love Of The Game is awesome!
For Love Of the Game is my fav baseball movie of all time and one of the most ignored or under rated movies of all time
I thought "moneyball" was a good movie, but they really did do Art Howe dirty. A lot of the scenes there never happened, but picture most true-story based movies to change the story to some extent.
It's a great movie, even if it is loose and fast with the facts. Like the old adage: when the fact becomes legend, print the legend. Art Howe is a good dude, and I remember that even us none A's fans outside the Bay Area were genuinely happy with how he managed his team. And what a fun team that was to watch.
Holywood always does this, understandably.... movies need drama, villain's and character development.... in regards to Art he was sort of a villain, and David Justice not being on board to be a leader straight away was character development for him to go from unwilling to willining
Yeah, they need a narrative arc so you have to take creative liberties. I think they walked the line of portraying the spirit of the real life events while telling a great story very well. They don't portray Art as a bad guy at all either. He's portrayed as a guy who feels disrespected and on the verge of being cast out with the trash even though he's always done his job well. He isn't included in discussions and his opinion isn't respected. They show that all the guys like him and he treats them really well. One of the big issues between Billy and Art is Art not playing Hatty at first and Art says:
"I like the guy. Really. But first base is the moon to him"
Another issue with him and Billy is his contract where Art says:
"A one year contract means the same thing to a manager as it does to a player. There's not a lot of faith there, and that's odd coming off a 100 win season."
"If you don't win the last game of the season, no one is gonna care"
"So.. it's on me now?"
"No. It's on me"
When Billy trades away players to force Art to play the team his way, Art responds:
"You're killing this team."
He's not portrayed as a "villian", he's a true antagonist. He just fundamentally disagrees with our protaganists beliefs, but he isn't a bad person in the slightest. And Art should be happy he got Philip Seymour Hoffman to portray him. The man was a legend and he gave that role so many layers
If you are a good writer that understands nuance, you do NOT need to make so many simplistic liberties with the truth. They could have let the antagonist simply be their slow start to the season, and more focus on the minnesota twins playoff series.
I remember Art Howe from when he managed the Astros....all I remember is that he seemed pretty laid back, easy going type guy, that everyone liked. Besides P.S. Hoffman not looking like Howe at all, I didn't think Howe was like that at all. It seemed to me, that Hoffman was was just playing a stereotypical coach/manager, and that he never spoke with Art or studied his character. Other than that, I thought it was a pretty good movie...despite not being a fan of Pitt. BTW, one of my favorite baseball movies is Mr. Baseball with Tom Selleck.
Moneyball was such an awesome, genius strategy. They never won any championships with it, but it was super cost-efficient and stuff.
Owned
But every team uses it now...
Did you copy paste the synopsis of the movie lmao fucking npc
@@kevineiford2153 every team recognizes the stats that are more important. The Dodgers and Yankees care more about OBP and OPS than BA, unlike they did in the past. Doesn't mean they're using the 'moneyball' strategy tho
The fuckin devil rays seem to be tho. O's too an extent. But that's just financially. The "moneyball" strategy in terms of how it was portrayed is long extinct nowadays
@@GavinOCo moneyball as I see it is using statistics rather than an eye test or intuition, not any specific strategy
I've seen the movie several times. I'm now reading the book. It's very different in many aspects. I recommend both.
Old man Justice
Still a great sports movie. Art Howe agreed.
did you ask David Justice if "Soda money" was a real conversation lol
I love how the whole movie trashed the scouting and development department who found and developed the team
@user-of9qq6op5u whatever they did, it worked. They drafted very well
I haven't seen it (yet) either, maybe one day ;-)
Art Howe just looks like a nice guy
Art Howe was a hell of a manager and also a player
Dave Stewart hasn't seen Moneyball? Unreal. Love that movie
The thing people don’t get is that it isn’t interesting to have a movie or tell a story that has no conflict, is it more interesting to have David Justice just be on board with his role on the team or have to be convinced to lead the team?
You have an architypical story model in your head and force the reality in it, because it is not interesting enough. So, by molding it, the reality becomes unreal and you have created fictional universe with its own characters and rules. They do it in so called biopics, but it would be honest to just call them fiction, because they are not based on reality but fictional story models.
People do get and essentially what they all said
I hope Art Howe can understand that even though his portrayal may be inaccurate, he never in the movie came across as wrong or stupid. I think he acted entirely within reason in the film. At no point did a decision made by that character not make sense. His motivations may have been presented as counter to B.B.'s but that isn't inherently villainous or anything.
This is a great movie, period. Like it’s not just a great baseball movie. Brad Pitt and Philip Seymour Hoffman (RIP) are world class actors and Jonah Hill was excellent. Chris Pratt is always great, this was one of his earlier movies I believe before Guardians.
I wish they had written a script with historical accuracy. They were trying to create tension where it didn't exist.
I agreed with Dave Stewart completley. The depiction of Manager Art Howe in "Money Ball" was an absolute disgrace. I worked for the A's for many years as an Usher in Guest Services. Art Howe treated people with respect and dignity. He would be at fan events and greet everybody at every table. He is a warm hearted and kind man. Not the unfeeling prick that he was depicted as in the movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman just mailed it in. I can't believe that an Actor who was in so many great movies like "Boogie Nights", "Capote", "Owning Mahoney", etc. had to take a drab part like this. .....If they needed a villian that bad NY Yankees Owner George Steinbrenner would have been perfect. Have George read the paper and scream "I will destroy that F'ing money ball concept of the west coast. Screw Beane and his small market team." Than have George throw an expensive bottle of Champagne right through the window. Audiences coast to coast would have loved that. ....Please ask Beane if he hated Art Howe that much, or if some Hollywood big shot made them depict Art Howe that way. I have friends in Texas who say they will never forgive Beane for making a good man into such an A-Hole.
I’m a Met fan. When Art was managing here he always was present at charity events and never had a bad word spoken about even in the tough NY media.
the actor didnt write the script or direct himself, its the screenplay, the producers and the director that assassinated his character
@@BIueharvest I agree with this comment. PSH gets his direction from a director, a script, and a producer. You can't blame him for reading the words from the script he was given...
I’ll 3rd what the 2 commenters before me said. Yeah, it was BS how they portrayed Howe, but don’t put it on Philip Seymour Hoffman. And I don’t think it was Beane’s doing, either.
@@aaronstark5060 exactly. The portrayal is the product of the script. Not much more you can say about it than that
David Justice one of the best swings in baseball!!
The big question is...what did AH think about the metrics, and how resistant was he to change?
Baseball fans knew he was a nice guy!
I'm guessing he was fine with it because the As had been using metrics throughout the 90's
He was hired to implement it.
Hollywood shoehorns this and other true stories into the “Sports Underdog” framework because audiences like it. Rocky punches meat, Daniel waxes cars, and Billy Beane uses statistics. You need a villain whether there was one in real life or not. It was a very good movie.
I think anyone who was following baseball back in 2002 and remembers that A’s run knew the first time they saw the movie that they took some creative liberties with it, but that’s fine. At the end of the day, most of those creative liberties were just played for comedic effect or for a bit of added drama. They still did a great job of capturing the overall feel and vibe of that season and tell the story. Their job is to make an entertaining film that’s captivating from start to finish. And some creative licensing may have been required in order to make a better overall movie and I think that’s fine
I’m old enough to have seen Art Howe on TV playing for Houston in the 70’s. PSH was a terrific actor (in the right roles) but he was no more Art Howe than Gordie Howe in Moneyball.
I also like that in their Fenway conversation, Beane congratulates John Henry on hiring Bill James, to which Henry rejoins something like, "I don't understand why someone hasn't hired that guy sooner."
Hollywood has a history of bastardizing stories. Very good movie, I watch it regularly and I have heard often the portrayal of Art Howe was deplorable. I remember when the movie When The Game Stands Tall, about the De La Salle Spartans in Concord and their streak of 151 games, so many parts of that movie took place over 10 years but they forced it into a one season campaign. I get the point but I would have preferred the producers to use a fake school name. Basically nothing of that movie was accurate.
They didn’t say anything about Jeremey Giambi getting traded and what was behind that.
The film was good because it took creative liberties. That has to be done in order to make a good narrative drama. It's not about being 100% true to the facts, it's about being true to the heart and soul of the story.
Its a standard Sorkin script. You have a renegade going up against the system with his mathy smart sidekick saying some technobabble
i thought Art Howe was dead lol i was spooked when i saw him. for some reason i remember hearing he died. maybe im thinking of Phillip Seymour Hoffman lmao
You were thinking of nelson Mandela.. again twice
David Justice: "None of my scenes were real, but that's what Hollywood does" Scott Hatteburg: "It was great man, I got to meet Chris Pratt and Brad Pitt!!!"
But, on a more serious note, I think it's pretty admirable they all spoke willingly and without needing to about Art Howe and how they thought of him as a manager and person he was on the real squad.
First off. Loved Moneyball. Have watched it many times. I didn’t mind Art Howe in the movie. There were scenes where he asked Billy straight up what was going on in the organization. Also the scene where he told Hatty he was up for Byrnes, was pretty cool. All time classic film.
As far as I'm concerned Justice has been served!!!
is that world series champ dave stewart? I heckin love dave stewart!
It was a movie based on history yes but it wasn't a documentary. Seems like with David Justice I put in to move the plot along to explain things the audiences not necessary to recreate real life scenes. Art they probably needed some sort of villain so coach drew the short end of that stick
Art howe in the movie looks like the players manager the players make him out to be but idk if they what we happening behind the scenes because usually what happens between the brass should stay between them.
Art Howe was definitely disappointed in his portrayal of the movie but now today he even chuckles about it and says ahh man it’s Hollywood I completely understand the drama and the magic of the film and the fans absolutely loved it and so did I he even admits that it was hell of good movie.
I want to know what Hatteberg thinks of the scene at his home. It has the best lines in the movie...
Beane: It's not that hard, Scott. Tell him, Wash...
Washington: It's incredibly hard.
Hatteberg: You want me to take Giambi's spot at first base?
Beane: Yup.
Hatteberg: What about the fans?
Washington: Yeah, maybe I can teach one of them...
And the scene ended on a tear-jerking emotional moment... Overall, the best scene in the movie.
At the 3:39 mark, don't be raggin' on the movie FEVER PITCH. It stars Jimmy Fallon and Drew Barrymore in a romantic comedy with a baseball backdrop. It was filmed around the Boston Red Sox winning the actual World Series. Good movie and your girl will like it too.
Psssh. Beaver Pitch. Psssh.
Yeah I've heard that Art was always on board with the moneyball strategy.
I despise that movie because of the blatant inaccuracies in it, especially how they portrayed Howe. There was no need for that.
This movie not having Mulder, Zito and Hudson as a major point is like making a movie about the 2001 Patriots and just having Tom Brady be a background extra.
We're leaving out Jordan and Pippen but giving Rodman a 30 second cameo. Our movie follows Ron Harper and Steve Kerr.
@@calinator51 Oh come on, we all know the true star is Wennington!
Even had a McDonald's commercial.
The moneyball concept is strictly about hitting. If they made a movie about the Patriots special teams strategy you wouldn’t expect to see Brady
@@heyuncledev Except Tejada(MVP), Chavez, and Dye aren't featured literally at all either. The movie focuses on Hatteberg, Jeremy Giambi, and David Justice whom were a small part of the teams success with a small combined WAR. The problem is the movie focuses on analytics around OBP instead of focusing on the actual reason the team was good. You can't make a Bulls movie only focusing on Steve Kerr without any MJ or Pippen or a Yankees movie focusing only on Scott Brosius and Jim Leyritz. The truth is those 3 players probably had less than 10% to do with how good that team was. It's an extremely misleading movie for what made that team actually great instead it focuses on some scrubs who were okay additions but not even close to why they were successful.
Art Howe was definitely not onboard with the direction of the team. I’m sure he was/ is a nice guy but he wasn’t happy with the team management.
I heard Manager Art Howe hated the movie on how he was portrayed. In the movie you can see Art and Billy Beane had an odd relationship as GM & Manager. In reality they had a great relationship and really didn't have too much conflict
“Nah man the Yankees are paying half your salary….thats what the NY Yankees think of you. They’re willing to pay 3.5 million just to play against you.”
One of my favorite movies.
It was a good movie, but I was disappointed they did not have Hudson, Mulder, and Zito. The pitching is what got them there. Not the hitting. Its remarkably hard to get 3 aces for that cheap. It should have definitely been apart of the story, but explaining WAR in simple terms to the viewer was probably too difficult because you couldn't say "They get on base."
"They're better than an average replacement player" Just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Also that team was World Series worthy. Not just American league worthy. It reminded me a lot of the 2003 Marlins. I knew my Yankees were going to lose to whomever came out of the NL because we lacked pitching (& still do). The Cubs would have beaten us that year as well.
Which is why Cashman should have been fired back in 2004 for refusing to bring in pitching for 20 years! He must have watched the movie & never figured you need pitching!
It's 2024 and this is the first time I've heard about the movie.
@breadandcircuses8127 not anymore someone stole it.
Never understood the hate that Phillip Seymour Hoffman's portrayal got. I thought they did a good job showing his toughness and desire not to be pushed around. Besides, in the films climax, Howe is shown fully supporting their system, which is shown to be the reason why they won that last game.
Checking in on Dec. 1, 2024:
Has Dave Stewart still not watched Moneyball?
It’s not about the team it was about the business in the movie the buss of the league.
I sat next to Dave Stewart behind the plate one night at the Metrodome when he was scouting. Not a nicer guy in the world!
No, David Justice said: "Not one of my scenes in the movie happened for real". He didn't say: "Not one scene happened for real".
Just gonna say, I don't play baseball. I work on contracts in another industry and that scene where Hatteberg gets signed hit home for me. Pun fully intended.
I guess it doesn't have to be actually what happened, but there is an understanding in the storytelling that resonates outside of baseball.
Moneyball is a philosophical movie. The themes in it are central to our lives. Beautiful movie.
It’s pretty funny how the movie acts like the AL MVP Miguel Tejada and the pitching rotation weren’t majors reasons for the A’s success.
Moneyball is a great movie for casuals that never watched that team with little baseball knowledge.
I hope that Jason Giambi hasn't seen this movie, and I hope he never does
I doubt he'd ever want to see his late brother cast in a negative light ever again
Little Big League is so underrated as a movie.
While true stories can be great on their own, the creation of an antagonist can make them more appealing to the masses. Hoffman did an excellent job in his role, whether it was accurate of Howe or not- Hoffman simply makes the overall story better. When the A’s go on to win that streak, Hoffman allowed the viewers to be much more vested by having made it seem like Beane was required to overcome hardship and obstacles in getting the lineup he wanted on the field. Think about how boring it would be if everyone on the team bought in from day 1. Hoffman helps make the movie great real or not- RIP.
Art Howe was a great coach. That team had a stud rotation and brought in a stud closer from the Jays in Koch. Not to mention Chavez, Dye,Justice, Tejada.
The movie was garbage but they did have some of the best shot scenes in any sports movie. Specifically the hatteberg home run scene.
I know a lawyer who tried to convince Howe to sue the movie producers and studio but he refused to do it.
Uhhhhh, it’s Hollywood. People acting like they don’t realize it’s Hollywood… 😂😂😂😂
Moneyball was a great movie based on a true story, but I don't really consider it biographical in any regard.
It's a shame the directors decided to portray Art so poorly. Hate when they do that. Winning Time was a great show last year but they also portrayed Jerry West very poorly and unfairly...
Maybe the people that lived it, were not aware of how they really were. Not directly, but they were ignoring some of their character "flaws". Great movie.
The Natural deserves to be on that list.
Trouble with the curve???? 🤮
He’s a pitcher. That’s a good pick from a pitcher’s perspective.
@@Snipes-76 from a filmmaker perspective it’s not a good pick.
Ironically the opposite message from moneyball. Billy Beane's scouting room was full of guys who thought they could build a winning team by listening to the crack of a bat
I think that the friction between Art and Billy in the movie was about the different authority that a coach and a GM have. Billy is trying to take the line up card but he knows he doesn't have the juice and he would never go over Art's head. Also when Art says that he is managing the team in a way that he can explain in job interviews, he is telling Billy "If your experiment doesn't work then I will be on the street." What's really telling is when Billy trades Pena, he gets what he wants and he totally takes any possible fallout off Art Howe's shoulders.
A baseball movie written by a guy who knows nothing about baseball, starring a guy who knows nothing about baseball. Brad Pitt has admitted as much.
As a huge baseball fan, I found the movie cringe worthy.
Just like holly weird screwed the Ford v. Ferrari story too.
It was a GREAT MOVIE!
How to build a losing organization, by billy beane.😂😂😂should've made the movie about Gene Michael and Bob watson.😎
I feel like the movie nailed Justice's character.
i’m glad everyone stuck up for their manager.. they made him seem like an asshole
This team should have won the world series
David Justice looking like a Puerto Rican reggaeton singer
If there’s no tension, if there’s no drama, no arguments, then it’s boring. At that point it would be a documentary and you tell me… how many documentaries have you seen in the big screen?
Great movie but they could have mentioned, oh I don't know .... Say ... The great pitching!!
I’ll be honest, I never watched the movie and disliked Art. I thought they portrayed him as someone who did what he thought was best for the team, loved the players, and stood by his beliefs. I actually felt bad for him in the movie even though I thought he was wrong. I thought Hoffman portrayed him as a very honorable man.
He said he was salt of the earth. He must've been very nice
A film based on a true story can really never be true to the real story. The drama always takes precedent.
For the Love of the Game is as brutal as the A’s are and as bad as the Colosseum has been for 40 years.