I honestly do not think this performance tempo is consistent with other research done and evidence found. Lots of the slow movements by Beethoven and Mozart are inspired by chorales or opera arias. At this tempo, it's not naturally singable anymore. The singers, no matter how good they are, would be out of breath before the end of each phrase. Beethoven also gave a description to the slow movement as "cantabile" which means a smooth singing style. At this tempo, especially on period instruments, the note keeps disappearing before the next comes in. The top melody line does not connect and there's no legato at all.
Whatever, to me it sounds more natural, more rational and more enjoyable. Don't you think the industrialised modern times could have make us try to play faster ? It's just a theory of mine. I have no musical knowledge but music is my religion, if ever I had one...
Alberto! This was a _MASTERFUL_ perfomance. The absolute control one must have over his fingers to pull off that II mvt. at 54 is incredible! I know because I am working on it ... and it's TOUGH!
In most recordings, the Adagio movement sounds a little sad, but here, it sounds like you’re really beaten down, exhausted, and have come to the end of yourself. I don’t know if that is the mood Beethoven had in mind. But if it was, this tempo conveys it.
@@AuthenticSound I'm afraid so. It's like listening to a singer who stops to breathe between every pair of notes. With the weaker sustain of historical instruments, exaggerating a slow tempo takes away all the sense of involvement in the line. Had beethoven's earlier sonatas been intended to last so long there's no way that we wouldn't have heard some kind of corroborating evidence.
Can't wait to hear this! This will be a mind blowing experience. Every movement will! The original clavichord recording has been one of my favourites, and finally the new WBMP version is here! ... in a few days more. Well there's time to dig up the third movement I've been learning on/off for months (it is a hard piece for me! :D) and practice that while waiting! On top of my current piece and routines of course!
I waited for this so long. For me the first movement will be the most interesting to hear at that tempo. The third movement I myself play at least partially close to WBMP, just like my father did based on artistic choices, so I already know how this makes so much more sense for that piece.
In a note written on the manuscript of his song "Nord oder Süd" Beethoven wrote: "100 according to Mälzel, but this must be considered applicable only to the first bars, for sentiment also has its tempo and cannot be completely expressed by this number." also he wrote to his editor about metronome markings: "the deuce take everything mechanical" Letter to B. Schott (19 August, 1826)
Having heard this whole beat recording, the “normal” recordings sound too fast now. But I think the ideal tempo would be a little faster than how it’s played here.
i've heard this sonata my entire life. often replaying it in my mind. it is surprising how different it feels at a slower tempi. sounds familiar. but it is not the same experience. notes are more clear and subtle. a different sonata for sure.
Surely the tempi is close to Czerny's metronome in sbmp, not this, because he was his closest pupil, and I suppose Czerny heard Beethoven playing hundreds of times, my humble thought.
All debate about whole or single beat aside, I'm somehow turned off by this interpretation. Can't quite put my finger on why, but after 5 minutes, I completely lost my interest. As a point of comparison, I much prefer the recording made by WIm himself on the clavicord published back in 2014.
I respect your comment, because it is honest. I have the same problem with the tempo, I’ve been struggling with it throughout this journey of Beethoven piano sonatas. I always feel like the extreme contrast is gone, and the momentum that gets built up when it can go much faster is higher, and more impactful. However, I just smoked some weed for the first time in a long time, and I’m listening to this performance of the pathetique, and its almost like a totally different piece. I’m enjoying this actually, its like you can zoom in on the music and have a totally different point of view on what the experience is.. anyway, I can relate to you a lot. The sonata no. 3 is very difficult for me to get behind, that one especially loses contrast and momentum, and the third movement of the hammerklavier sonata I feel doesn’t work either. It’s lacking the structure it has when played faster, you can actually perceive the melodic harmony, just gets lost at the slower tempo unfortunately, but now that I’m seeing the no.8 in this different way I think I’m going to give these other sonatas another listen, perhaps they do work I just wasn’t seeing it for what it is... I’m open but still not totally sold.
Glenn H Rollinglenn Tiedemann in one of the comments here below, refers to the deep meaning of the (French) word "Pathetique". I would add that the parallel (German and Italian) word "Pathos"', involves by definition some sort of exaggeration it its outer performance. So, from that point of view, 'exaggeration' in slowing 'too much' the tempo, even without referring to Czerny's MM and the WBMP - is the right thing to do in performing this Sonata by Beethoven. And you have done it perfectly well, together with other means of expression, Alberto. Bravo! Your 'limping' (inegalite') at the beginning of each bar in many sections, however, impairs my ability to completely enjoy your (otherwise) beautiful interpretation. All the best and success.
Ooooh, I’ve been waiting for this one! Yay! This was the first of the sonatas that I’ve ever played so it is very special to me, I’m so excited to hear it performed in whole beat!
Im soon gonna upload a video of me playing the sonata. Because I feel the recording is a bit too slow in some parts and he uses sooo much rubato. Beethoven known to keep the tempo very strict. Also I'm playing the sonata with Werckmeister tuning and with A = 420-430hz. It really feels different this way
Why the complete stop after the first triplet of every single quaver, in the slow movement? Does the slow tempo not already make it sound fragmented enough? Could anyone seriously sing along with such a flagging accompaniment? If there were to be a performance that could make the concept seem credible, I'm afraid this isn't it. It simply comes across as musically under-prepared. For a very slow performance to convince, it would have to carry the ear between notes.
Listening to it again, there are so many details that I never really noticed in any faster playing of it, the variations of the secondary parts, especially in the left hand, some of which I don't think are ever really played that way at the current average speeds of performance. There is so much that becomes clear at these tempos. The "cantabile" of the second movement is a different kind of singing - I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of the "bel canto" of the kind I grew up hearing is a serious distortion too - I think a lot of that may become clear when this practice is brought to Chopin who I am finding was a far different composer too. I wish I were in my 20s finding this out, though I'm sure it would have made me a far more controversial teacher than I've been if I'd taught it. The video about Liszt confessing to being a "charlatan" was one of he pivotal ones for me. He ties so much of it together, having known Beethoven, Czerny, Chopin, etc.
The second movement is really too slow for my taste. Nevertheless, I must give you credit for staying WBMP all the way. Many of your criticizers cite this second movement as a counterargument, but you show that you are consistent and stay behind it, even in this second movement.
@@burr69: *WRONG.* The entire point is that it's *NOT* subjective, this is a reconstruction of what the composer actually intended *OBJECTIVELY* speaking. The only reason it sounds slow to you is because you're accustomed to the clownish and laughable speeds these pieces have ended up being performed at.
@@hoon_sol What someone thinks sounds good is subjective. What the composer notated is objective. You didn’t understand what I said. Just because Beethoven notated it to be played like a slug doesn’t mean that’s what sounds best, because that’s entirely up to the listener. So to call what I think sounds good clownish is just gate keeping a genre of music that has been suffering from people like you
Fascinating. A different piece from the one it's usually played as being. "Brio" not meaning "play this as fast as your fingers can". I suspect the sonatas that got the most play (and perhaps most abuse) are the ones that seem strangest. Given the evidence of how seriously Beethoven and Czerny took the MMs for his music and the impossibility of playing this piece twice as fast as this (and retaining any musicality or meaning) this must be what was intended. If that means we have to change our conception of it, well, that's what respecting a composers' intent often requires.
There is no 'impossibility'. Many pianists have played perfectly well using the correctly marked Czerny tempos, so no logical case remains. Czerny himself wrote about the opening Grave 'we could only indicate the beats of the metronome in semiquavers' .. now it seems to me this cannot be intended to mean anything other than 1 beat (92) = 1 semiquaver. Which is already a very slow tempo.
@@stringph If you mean that they played a single-beat rendition of the MMs that either Beethoven or Czerny published for the Beethoven sonatas, no, they didn't, not even close. You should listen to what Wim Winters says about the Hammerklavier, especially the fastest recording by Stephan Möller on a modern piano that is far more capable of playing fast than the pianos available to Beethoven or Czerny, it falls considerably below the MMs interpreted in single-beat. There are no recordings that do what is claimed. They don't exist.
Sometimes I like the slower sound, othertimes not. It's hard to believe this is really what was intended, just on hearing alone. I do think most classical Performances these days are too fast; but maybe the truth really lies in the middle.
@@roberacevedo8232 In my opinion if the historical tempo theory is correct then performing artists like Beethoven would have played 15% faster than this. Give a tempo that is achievable by the home pianist at the time, then you need to pay to see the incredible live performance. Well, the other theory that my piano teacher believe is that composers at the time hated the metronome, and when forced to add a marking by publishers would deliberately put ridiculous tempo's on.
@@allisterbrimble1 The first one is possible. The second one is ridiculous with everything pointing against it. Time and time again we have seen that all the composers were dead serious about the mm and wanted you to play in tempo.
I think that part should be play at 200 bpm( im learning it and i practice at 190 bpm to arrive at 200), but at this point the tempo would be "presto", so "Allegro molto e con brio" would be 170-180 bpm, because "Allegro" is like 130-160 bpm, but much pianists like playing this part at 230 or more than 230 bpm, but i like the sound at 200 bpm
@@louiscouperin3731 i practice in 4/4, because it's a more regular beat than 2/2 so i can bring the tempo and don't lose it. In the grave section i set the metronome to 25 bpm. I only write a wrong number at the end of the other comment
Allegro means cheerful and con brio means with vigor. Italian movement descriptions have nothing to do with tempo, but rather setting the mood/tone of the piece.
I play this sonata for years now, not properly but with pleasure and just for me (and my wife if she's listening). But I had, more or less, the meanstream tempo in my head, because I heard it, and liked it (it's rarely the case). And... this tempo is a revelation ! This is soooo gooood!!! Everything is way much stronger, moving, every detail makes sense, everything becomes logic and musical. I'm gonna try it on my piano very soon.
Earlier this year I played the 2nd movement of this sonata at my piano class's annual recital, at about 69 BPM, even faster than Czerny's tempo in Half Beat (like most pianists I've heard). Then, about 2 months ago I discovered Czerny's edition of the Beethoven sonatas on IMSLP and tried his metronome setting for this movement. I personally thought it worked very well, but my mother and my teacher (both of whom I love immensely, and who are completely on board with WBMP) agreed that it was too slow. So I thought this particular eighth note = 54 might actually be Half Beat, and after listening to this recording, I have to say I'm still not sure.
music appreciation the same I felt with the second from the Apassionata... with three listenings I became used to it. I think it has to do with custom. Just my thoughts
Initially I liked the super-slowed-down Grave, but after studying this piece for a few months I find the end of the first movement (the Grave before the Adagio e cantabile starts) to be more powerful when the Allegro molto e con brio is played at an exhausting pace. I prefer to save my tears for that moment, instead of getting carried away with grief by the end of the first page. My favorite performance I've found on youtube is by Annie Fischer. Some people seem to ignore Beethoven's dynamics, but she really puts her whole body into it when necessary! For now my RSI has me playing whole-beat speeds, which is part of the appeal of watching these vids, but I hope to catch up to the likes of her someday.
The mood is so more serious/black/introspective/grave at slower speed! Not manic. Very moving... I'm so used to the (all previous?) pianists speeding through the "school zone", so have to listen to this interpretation more than once to change my memory template:) Thank you for posting!
Really refreshing to hear this slow interpretation. I still prefer the modern style but it certainly makes a lot of sense to explore different tempi. Will definitely listen to the other Beethoven sonatas as well
yes, and singers feel really at ease. It is another thing to bring them on the channel though, also they read the comments and fear the telephone won't be ringing for future concerts (also that's the world we musicians live in - but not enough realize)
@@AuthenticSound Really? I left the conservatory due to a myriad of reasons, but I didn't know the classical music industry was so petty. Although I remember meeting a professor who was really early in the legitimate baroque playing style like 30 or 40 years ago and it was hard for him trying to use different temperaments and no vibrato while being taken seriously as a musician. Anyways, I'd didn't imagine a single performance could be so impactful, playing once here dosn't meant that they won't be able to play at a faster tempo later.
Very interesting (and enjoyable)! From the opposite extreme, Alexandra Dovgan celebrated Beethoven's 250th birthday four days ago by posting a video of her performance of this PS. She gets through the Adagio Cantabile in 4 mins 13 secs, which I believe to be a new record. She was triple counting!
This is fascinating and it certainly reveals subtleties that are lost when the sonata (esp the last movement) is played at break-neck speed. But should we also infer, by the same reasoning, that Beethoven's symphonies, piano concerti and string quartets are all played twice as fast as Beethoven intended?
He is a very good pianist in my opinion, however, the tempo doesn't sound natural which effects the emotional aspects of the piece. I have seen this piece performed live by some of the Greatest pianist who ever lived in the last 35 years and never heard one even close to playing it like this at this tempo and interpretation.
@@olofstroander7745 Good I second your opinion. "Unauthentic Sound" is one of the most non-musical personalities I have ever encountered. This is a completely ridiculous performance. I have a lot more respect for Beethoven than this. We are being trolled.
@@JoeLinux2000 Yeah I was very confused by what he was saying in some of his videos at first, but when I started watching some of these performances his theories made even less sense. I've played this sonata myself and the way he plays it just sucks all of the life out of the piece. There's no way this is what Beethoven had in mind
@AuthenticSound I am not expert but I find this version to take all storm as well as sincerity out of this piece. Its slowly hacking away in a weird way. The strange rubato (sounding almost like dotted eights and sixteenths) in the first movement makes it loose it's flow. It almost also sounds like the Alla Breve in the fast parts of the first movement is now counted as 4/4 which further increases the feeling of hacking through it. You claim in an arrogant way that you more know about the perfomance of Beethoven than any other. Take Schnabel for example: "Schnabel's pedagogical lineage included Beethoven himself. When he was around ten years old, he began studying with Theodor Leschetizky, who was a student of Carl Czerny, who was in turn Beethoven's student, close friend and assistant." His recordings sound nothing like this. And take Beethoven Scholars like Igor Levitt and his interpretations! Sounds nothing like this. I would bet that Schnabel is closer than you are! If one notes this lineage of teachers to Beethoven (2 of them between). Was it Czerny ot Leshetizky that decided to double the tempo according your reasoning?
Wow, this is great. The Grave actually sounds as i would imagine a Grave should (so slow that everything stands by itself somehow). And then suddenly the allegro introduction really shines. Wonderful! It is no longer just a sea of harmonies, you can actually follow the themes and narrative of the piece As always, it would be nice to see some of your own interpretations. I know this is supposed to be a tempo reconstruction, not interpretation. But it does feel a little flat at points, as some have noted in the comments.
it is in fact an interpretation, just one based upon a given tempo to start from. the 2024 version has been recorded a few weeks ago and will answer to the questions you raised. release in short, stay tuned 👍
Let's put WBMP and halfbeat on the back burner for now. Let's just look at the MM#'s and the note values and compare them to the Italian tempo words. M I: Allegro [di] molto (forget the con brio for now as it's a "character" or "mood" word, not a tempo) = Minim @ 144 M III: Allegro = Minim @ 96 The "[di] molto" is 150% faster than the Allegro in this piece according to Czerny. Beethoven does the rest with note values. The tempi are "identical". Why? Beethoven uses the quaver at 144 in M I. Beethoven uses the triplet quaver at 96 in M III. The notes per second are equal. Back to the back burner now: So, the question you ask yourself is, is Allegro ever 9.6 notes per second in 1798? According to the _ABSOLUTE_ sources I have access to, both Drs. Young (1800) and Crotch (1812) say resoundingly _"NO!"_ Unless you have another understanding or way to read the Metronome of Maelzel or the pendulum inches of those before and after the MM, you are stuck with an undocumented possibility (halfbeat) or a compleatly reasonable (documented) fact that Allegros were between 4 and 7 notes per second, never higher. You must go to the upper limit, and then allow the composer to use time signatures and note values to adjust the tempo of the piece. If you want to play as fast as you can or feel like, that's _FINE_ !; however, it is not _AUTHENTIC_ or the _INTENTION_ of the composer. You have to deal with that reality. Sidebar: The Adagio cantabile in 2/2 is at 6.75 measures per minute, but Beethoven uses semiquavers, not quavers; so the tempo is equivalent to an adagio of "C" time signature using quavers according to Quantz. That puts the triplet eighths at 81 per minute or 1.35 nps, which is 1/4 of the tempo of both movements. Pretty fast, in fact, considering that adagio is half of andante, which is half of allegretto, which is half again of allegro. The Grave is literally "DEAD SLOW"; however, Beethoven uses up to a quasihemidemisemiquaver (128th note). Beethoven takes care of the tempo; all you need to do is OBEY him. Hm ... obedience ... Adam and Eve ... hm ... cogitate on that. P.S. - Yes, friends, musicians used to think and organise music just like I have done here. Do you think Bach had time to sit and rewrite his music for the Lutheran Masses? Nope. Busy guy! He, like most musicians, can write out of their heads alone. That part of "Amadeus" was literally correct. Music was the last of the sciences to be learnt after: Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric, Arithmetic, Geometry, & Astronomy ... only then would you _DARE_ learn the science of music to become a "Licentiate Teacher".
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 What I think I hear your saying is that since the Italian tempo word "grave" means that the tempo is too slow. Please help me understand what you mean by further explaining your reasoning; I am interested in your understanding of this Italian tempo word ; thank you.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 I believe you meant "grave" instead of "largo". I've looked up the Bulow edition. If I remember, he's a 3rd generation away from Beethoven, viz., Czerny, Liszt, and Bulow. Bulow's tempo - no matter how you slice it - is exactly 1.5 times faster than Cerny's. Now, Bulow states that the 4th measure last "nonuplets" should be played in strict time, and playing the first four notes as 128ths, and the last five as a quintuplet. In SBT, the first four notes would pass by at 18.4 nps and the quintuplet (5/4) would increase to 23 nps. I do not think that this could be kept strictly in time as Bulow suggests. Can you tell the different between 18.4 and 23 Hz? This would be a "best guess" at most. As a point of reference, the lowest A on the piano beats at 27 Hz. This quintuplet would in fact produce its own "note" within the human audible range. Now, using the _Whole Beat Metronome Principle_ , we would have 9.2 and 11.5 respectively. Can we know for sure? No. Each person would need to determine for himself is he can keep better the 18.4/23 or the 9.s/11.5 division of the "128ths" in strict time. Back to Czerny, whose tempo is 1.5 X slower ... it seems even a bit more sound that ~6 nps/7.333 nps is capable of being played in strict time even with the nonuplet in place. What are you thoughts on these data?
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 So, if I have you right (don't worry about English - if you'd like to converse in Spanish or my "poor" French - at the moment - we can - sadly, I know no other languages except for Latin, which I can poke around in), I understand that the Bulow SBT method would be too fast, and that even the WBMP would be too fast, and that we're unsure about why Beethoven used these 128ths, and finally that Alberto's is even a wee bit too slow for your tastes. And of course, you're referring only to the Grave part where Alberto is concerned; do I have this right?
It sounds like music. I listened to some pianists playing Chopin at practice speeds, and I finally like his music. I honestly think it sounds like noise played at the breakneck speeds of competitions.
OMG, I've developed my own tempo system with clearly defined rules and ratios for tempo words and for the 2nd movement I made a prediction. Though it says 2/4, as it uses 32nd notes as the smallest structural note values and 2 harmonies per bar it's clearly more like a 4/8. So I would start with 30 for the quaver as an adagio speed (16th note = 60) but since it's very ornamented and cantabile as it's style, it's obviously got to be slowed down a touch. How much so I wasn't sure, so I took 2 predictions. The first being 53 for the 16th note if it slows down a lot, and 57 if it only slows down a little bit. And I settled on 57. Then I went to this video to find the "correct" answer and in whole beat it reads 16th note = 54. I'm so proud that I've managed to reach an almost exact answer.
Great ! Very balanced and deep tone.I play the first movement in 1/2=152(WBMP) according to an later Czerny edition,but i must say i like your tempo more.
I have watched many several of your videos and a few of these performances. I find it so hard to digest the entire possibility that what we have come to know about Beethoven being a dynamic composer is somehow completely lost with these recreations. I am thoroughly befuddled and awash with sadness. Could it be that, what we are using to measure (a minute), could have POSSIBLY have been and imprecise measurement due to the non-standardization of timepieces of that time? Help me out here, I am finding it so difficult take this in, to the fullest extent. Many KUDOS to Alberto Sanna for his kind and, shall I dare say, herculean efforts. Thank you reading.
Hi Wim, I saw a video the other day of Symour Berstein giving a masterclass lesson on this sonata, specifically the 2nd movement, and the guy he was teaching was not using the pedal (like Alberto here) and Bernstein complained it was "dry". The guy said he rather liked dry sometimes and Bernstein's response was "you play it your way, I'll play it Beethoven's way." Needless to say he was playing it much to fast compared to whole beat. Regarding the dry complaint, he also went onto say that the notes with a bow and staccato dots (portato) were meant to be played with a fully depressed key and then raising the hand off of the key whilst holding the sound open with the pedal. And I knew that was wrong given your video about moscheles saying it was meant to be without pedal and giving the note 2 thirds of the notes value indicated. Firstly, do you know when Bernstein's idea of portato first came from? I suspect it's something like the late 19th century and has just stuck around. And secondly, how can people be so confident that they're playing "Beethoven's way" when, to my mind at least, they've never checked what they think, they just assume it's true because everybody else does? I appreciate this is a bit of a random question but any insight would be useful
Nice playing! Wim always emphasizes that you cannot play very fast on this piano because of the action. Please make a video comparing the action speed of period instruments such as the clavichord and harpsichord with modern concert grands. Also, what do you think of this performance? (ua-cam.com/video/-A1a8PCQfP0/v-deo.html) It is not played by a well-known virtuoso, but it is still faster than Czerny's speed. Did they increase the speed digitally or modify the action of the piano? It seems unbelievably fast.
I've been anticipating this one! The pathos is so often treated as mere unhappiness - it needs to express the "deep down in your bones" pain and total lack of hope - a true emptiness! IMHO the Adagio e Cantabile is too frequently too "upbeat" (emotionally). I believe it should express deep longing and separation. The rest of this work seems to me to express the chaos that results from hopelessness. This should be eye and ear-opening !!!
Movements 1 & 3 sound actually quite nice if played at 2x speed. So I really like Czerny's tempo here, it is still a bit slower than many pianists play it. Levit for example plays the Grave too slow and the Allegro con brio too fast (in my opinion.) The Adagio is, for my taste, too slow even at 2x speed. Interesting that Czery suggests it so slowly.
Rather pathetic answer from your side ;) but since this is a really great sonata, maybe you just wanted to express the same about my answer? ;) btw: what Alberto plays here is always too slow (at least according to Czerny). Sorry for breaking the news.
You were acquainted I suppose? No, you just heard retellings of retelled stories about him. He put this metronome number HIMSELF. Czerny, Moscheles, Ris were his pupils and made similar metronome marks
This "Pathetique" is my most favorite work from Beethoven. But the story mentioned by Beethoven is completely gone by lowering the tempo so much. Tempo and sound are one in creating the right mode to vibrate the according emotions. This doesn't mean that tempo need to be exact a metronome tempo, and a very low tempo can give new technical insights of the work. Nevertheless, my appreciation for the pianist, because it is certain not easy if you are used to play the second piece of this part against a tempo 152 -160, and then playing the complete work at this slow tempo.
No one has lowered the tempo. This isn't a "slow" tempo. This is being played at the tempo Beethoven intended. This is the -right- tempo. If anything ruins Beethoven's story, it's the ridiculously fast tempo most people typically perform this piece at.
Can someone please tell me whats the difference between this recording and wims older recording on the clavichord is? Why did he play it faster in the old recording? Im confused...... :
I guess my bias is showing on this one as I was already very familiar hearing it played about 10% or more faster. First one I've watched where it was a bit of a challenge.
Hello Mr. AuthenticSound , have you ever done research about the A = 440Hz? It seems that in the past piano's were tuned at 432Hz (e.g. Verdi). Now with the electronic keyboards, it is easy to tune at 432Hz. and a lot of people think that classic pieces sounds better at this lower frequency.
432 was not really that common in the past. standard pitch was not really a thing for the 19th century. Every country had their own standard and the pitch changed in the same country during the century. Pitch in France varied between 435-448 and pitch in the UK varied between 425-456 all during the same century
@@sofiadahlen1187 Thank you very much for answering, Sofia! Therreason for asking this is because AuthenticSound did a lot of research about the tempi. But in audio, tempi has a lot common with frequency. So it is possible that the composer of a piece has set his tempo in order of the frequency his piano was tuned. Suppose that Chopin's piano was tuned at 448Hz when he wrote his "Funeral March" with as tempo "Lento". Then I think it would be possible that he had determined the tempo as "Larghetto" in case his piano was tuned at 435Hz.
@@anmeirdi It is an intressting theory to think about. I can of course just talk from my personal experience playing in a vide variety of pitches ranging from a=396 - a=448. I have not this far seen any corellation with playing slower while tuning to lower frequencies. This has been especially true for keyed instruments like organs and cembalos since the techique doesn't change with different pitches. There is a small difference with the possible speeds if we concider early french baroque flutes tuned at a=396 compared to later flutes tuned higher. But that difference is small and is caused by the fact that the lower tuned flute is bigger so the fingers have to stretch a bit more. Hope that is a good anwser :)
@@anmeirdi I would for pianos deffinetly not think it plausable that tuning 13Hz lower would be a reaso for a difference from Lento to Larghetto. Though that's quite easy to test
@@sofiadahlen1187 thanks for the comprehensive answer! These thoughts about the correlation between speed and frequency arose because I myself tend to play a piano piece faster when I play it (just as a test) an octave higher. I don't know if other pianists also experience this, especially with fast piano pieces. If you have friends who also play the piano, you could check this by asking them to play a fast piano piece (eg Chopin's minute walz). First one octave lower than the score, then one octave higher than the score. If the lower is played slower than the higher one, their could be a relationship between the tuned instrument and the given tempi in the past. Best regards, Dirk
It makes so much sense in whole beat.. when Beethoven asks for those 128th notes in the Grave section, most people just play them as one big slur because they had started the movement way too fast and then it’s too late to adjust. So funny how we just ignore those little bits that don’t work because of incorrect tempo choice instead of trying to solve the problem!!! Same with the ornaments in the hand crossing sections.. in single beat they are so rushed and barely pronounced accurately, but in this tempo they are very graceful and elegant.
Maybe it could even be the reason/one of the reasons that this sonata is called pathetique, due to the incredibly un-usual tempo, also compared to other WBMP piano sonatas of Beethoven you have on this channel (e.g., Hammerklavier, Waldstein, etc)
Alberto, I was already wondering how you would play the first 3 notes of the rondo. Im not really an expert with notation, but because of the grouping in 3 I tought at first, that it is meant to be a triplet (Because unlike in Chopin eg., where a triplet is marked with a 3, I always have to interpret a triplet in Beethoven by matching the note value to the bar or observing the grouping). But I was unsure after I realized, that I could not find a single Interpretation, where it is played as a triplet. In your version, it kinda sounds like a triplet at first, but then again, it could be because of the timing-accentuation of the following note (inegalite). How did you read this opening bar in terms of rhythm?
Beethoven was a very economical composer. Saying that he didn't write pedal so you shouldn't use it would be completely wrong. I really miss the pedal in this performance
Have you tried to play on period instruments, especially the older ones? You do not need the pedal most of the time, really. The legato comes from the fingers. Sure, you can wish for more pedal, but do you have any source that says that Beethoven used the pedal a lot? Or that Beethoven wasn't very specific about pedal use when he is specific about it in f.ex. his 4th piano concerto or the sonata op. 106? You should also take the history of the piano pedal into consideration for this. The damper pedal had to be operated with the hand to start with. Probably only with Stein pianos (=Mozart or early Beethoven) you get a knee pedal to be operated with the leg. That means that the pedal was only used for special effects to begin with. Imagining arriving in 1798 when this piece was written: What are your odds that you will find a brandnew piano with a good pedal? (Please be also aware that the kind of piano that Alberto is playing is more than a decade younger than that date.) My guess: People probably also played this music on harpsichords and clavichords if there was no piano around.
@Jonathan Ross Ok, I have had a look around, and I have found a Ph.D. about the topic! (core.ac.uk/download/pdf/4832691.pdf ) It seems you are right - I am sorry for doubting you, Floris. According to Czerny, Beethoven used the pedal quite a lot, and he seems to have enjoyed experimenting with the effects the pedal could make. There must have been quite a few beautiful pianos around Vienna. :-) He doesn't write pedal marks down before 1801, so for finding a period way of pedaling, one needs to look to the slightly older Beethoven and/or to some of his contemporaries.
In my opinion the third movement is perfect in this tempo. The first movement also makes perfect sense. It will, however, take me a while to get used to the second movement.
It took me a year and playing lots more Adagios to come to grips with this. As one of the first pieces I ever learnt, imagine having to rewire childhood memories to conform to the truth of how "extremely slow" Adagios are. (Saint Saenz). Then the fact that the little "run" in 64ths and subsequent cadence never sat right. I think I'll see how other mainstreamers solved this problem. Great post!
I know the sonata very well. I learned it many years ago and studied it over and over again. It is very difficult for my habit to listen. But I have to admit, so much makes more sense here, slowly, clearly, transparently. But: We need to talk about agogic. It may be a matter of taste, but with all the love, in some places it's too much, the music stumbles, "hiccups". Let me say in conclusion, overall impressive. A bold and justified interpretation.
@@JérémyPresle yes you are right, lets go in details: maybe 4:21 the first note of four gets to much room. Its okay for me to give some weight on, but that's so much that I lose the expected end-point of the tirade. Also 5:36 , it produces a moment of standstill, of glide. In my opinion good in a closed peace or when its meant so , but i can not arrange it with con brio. Even in the "slow" playing I would prefer an agitative feeling, at least in this "scene".
I understand you're saying this. Problem though is that the modern way of reading a metronome can not be demonstrated in a sufficiently big % of pieces to really challenge our reading here which is, contrary to what you might have learned, very well proven to be historically accurate. Hope this helps!
The Adagio seems at a wrong tempo to my ears. No flavour with these slow repeated notes. The melody loses its attractiveness. The whole beat theory seems not making sens with this movement. To my ears anyway. Very interesting tho’.
Can we not find in the literature of the 18th and early 19th centuries about musical performances any description of the DURATION of the ACTUAL PERFORMANCE of a certain composition that will indicate to us how fast the tempo was of that actual performance?! Similarly, can we find a reference to the actual duration of a Beethoven concert of known program where the specific compositions are known?
I honestly do not think this performance tempo is consistent with other research done and evidence found. Lots of the slow movements by Beethoven and Mozart are inspired by chorales or opera arias. At this tempo, it's not naturally singable anymore. The singers, no matter how good they are, would be out of breath before the end of each phrase. Beethoven also gave a description to the slow movement as "cantabile" which means a smooth singing style. At this tempo, especially on period instruments, the note keeps disappearing before the next comes in. The top melody line does not connect and there's no legato at all.
Underrated comment
You may like to read "Beethoven in his own words" He was influenced by more than what you seem to suppose. For example, Palestrina's sacred music.
Whatever, to me it sounds more natural, more rational and more enjoyable. Don't you think the industrialised modern times could have make us try to play faster ? It's just a theory of mine. I have no musical knowledge but music is my religion, if ever I had one...
I totally agree.
A singer is taught how to breath, don't you worry!
Alberto! This was a _MASTERFUL_ perfomance. The absolute control one must have over his fingers to pull off that II mvt. at 54 is incredible! I know because I am working on it ... and it's TOUGH!
masterful performance!
Fascinating: the "fast" parts in the first movement sound at times like the Andante from op. 28.
Half-speed practice session?
In most recordings, the Adagio movement sounds a little sad, but here, it sounds like you’re really beaten down, exhausted, and have come to the end of yourself. I don’t know if that is the mood Beethoven had in mind. But if it was, this tempo conveys it.
That ending.... So perfect in this tempo 👌🏻 It always sounded so abrupt and unresolved, well not anymore!
Very impressive that the pianist managed to continue for the full duration without dozing off, given the level of engagement with the musical line.
you feel good after writing this line of crap? If yes, good. Use that energy to get a life.
@@AuthenticSound I'm afraid so. It's like listening to a singer who stops to breathe between every pair of notes. With the weaker sustain of historical instruments, exaggerating a slow tempo takes away all the sense of involvement in the line. Had beethoven's earlier sonatas been intended to last so long there's no way that we wouldn't have heard some kind of corroborating evidence.
Wat een verademing in deze waanzinnige wereld! Dank je Wim en Alberto!
How can someone be so delusional to think that this is how fast Beethoven intended for his pieces to be played.
Can't wait to hear this! This will be a mind blowing experience. Every movement will! The original clavichord recording has been one of my favourites, and finally the new WBMP version is here! ... in a few days more.
Well there's time to dig up the third movement I've been learning on/off for months (it is a hard piece for me! :D) and practice that while waiting! On top of my current piece and routines of course!
I waited for this so long. For me the first movement will be the most interesting to hear at that tempo. The third movement I myself play at least partially close to WBMP, just like my father did based on artistic choices, so I already know how this makes so much more sense for that piece.
In a note written on the manuscript of his song "Nord oder Süd" Beethoven wrote:
"100 according to Mälzel, but this must be considered applicable only to the first bars, for sentiment also has its tempo and cannot be completely expressed by this number."
also he wrote to his editor about metronome markings:
"the deuce take everything mechanical" Letter to B. Schott (19 August, 1826)
Beautiful,splendrous.Thanks.
The second movement doesn't seem so slow after one gets accustomed to the time. It just feels right!
Having heard this whole beat recording, the “normal” recordings sound too fast now. But I think the ideal tempo would be a little faster than how it’s played here.
i've heard this sonata my entire life. often replaying it in my mind. it is surprising how different it feels at a slower tempi. sounds familiar. but it is not the same experience. notes are more clear and subtle. a different sonata for sure.
Beautiful.
I don't think Beethoven provided metronome markings for this, so it should be played at a tempo that makes sense, which this ain't.
Surely the tempi is close to Czerny's metronome in sbmp, not this, because he was his closest pupil, and I suppose Czerny heard Beethoven playing hundreds of times, my humble thought.
All debate about whole or single beat aside, I'm somehow turned off by this interpretation. Can't quite put my finger on why, but after 5 minutes, I completely lost my interest. As a point of comparison, I much prefer the recording made by WIm himself on the clavicord published back in 2014.
Agreed
I strongly disagree with this interpretation. This type of performance is not compelling
I respect your comment, because it is honest. I have the same problem with the tempo, I’ve been struggling with it throughout this journey of Beethoven piano sonatas. I always feel like the extreme contrast is gone, and the momentum that gets built up when it can go much faster is higher, and more impactful.
However, I just smoked some weed for the first time in a long time, and I’m listening to this performance of the pathetique, and its almost like a totally different piece. I’m enjoying this actually, its like you can zoom in on the music and have a totally different point of view on what the experience is.. anyway, I can relate to you a lot. The sonata no. 3 is very difficult for me to get behind, that one especially loses contrast and momentum, and the third movement of the hammerklavier sonata I feel doesn’t work either. It’s lacking the structure it has when played faster, you can actually perceive the melodic harmony, just gets lost at the slower tempo unfortunately, but now that I’m seeing the no.8 in this different way I think I’m going to give these other sonatas another listen, perhaps they do work I just wasn’t seeing it for what it is... I’m open but still not totally sold.
I smoke weed to listen to that too, kkkkk and I like very much, especialy the first alegro....
Glenn H Rollinglenn Tiedemann in one of the comments here below, refers to the deep meaning of the (French) word "Pathetique". I would add that the parallel (German and Italian) word "Pathos"', involves by definition some sort of exaggeration it its outer performance. So, from that point of view, 'exaggeration' in slowing 'too much' the tempo, even without referring to Czerny's MM and the WBMP - is the right thing to do in performing this Sonata by Beethoven. And you have done it perfectly well, together with other means of expression, Alberto. Bravo! Your 'limping' (inegalite') at the beginning of each bar in many sections, however, impairs my ability to completely enjoy your (otherwise) beautiful interpretation. All the best and success.
I don’t mean to come off rude or snobbish, but you must do « Pathétique « instead of « Pathetique » !
@@louiscouperin3731 Thanks for drawing my attention.
Thanks for explaining it.
Ooooh, I’ve been waiting for this one! Yay! This was the first of the sonatas that I’ve ever played so it is very special to me, I’m so excited to hear it performed in whole beat!
Im soon gonna upload a video of me playing the sonata. Because I feel the recording is a bit too slow in some parts and he uses sooo much rubato. Beethoven known to keep the tempo very strict. Also I'm playing the sonata with Werckmeister tuning and with A = 420-430hz. It really feels different this way
Here is the link for my first attempt
ua-cam.com/video/sH69uJLWu78/v-deo.html
Why the complete stop after the first triplet of every single quaver, in the slow movement? Does the slow tempo not already make it sound fragmented enough? Could anyone seriously sing along with such a flagging accompaniment? If there were to be a performance that could make the concept seem credible, I'm afraid this isn't it. It simply comes across as musically under-prepared. For a very slow performance to convince, it would have to carry the ear between notes.
Listening to it again, there are so many details that I never really noticed in any faster playing of it, the variations of the secondary parts, especially in the left hand, some of which I don't think are ever really played that way at the current average speeds of performance. There is so much that becomes clear at these tempos. The "cantabile" of the second movement is a different kind of singing - I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of the "bel canto" of the kind I grew up hearing is a serious distortion too - I think a lot of that may become clear when this practice is brought to Chopin who I am finding was a far different composer too. I wish I were in my 20s finding this out, though I'm sure it would have made me a far more controversial teacher than I've been if I'd taught it. The video about Liszt confessing to being a "charlatan" was one of he pivotal ones for me. He ties so much of it together, having known Beethoven, Czerny, Chopin, etc.
@Chlorinda Your singing teacher must have had an interesting notion of legato.
@Chlorinda Unless you're in your fifties, I've been teaching music longer than you've been alive.
@Chlorinda They don't seem to have any trouble producing a legato with minimal input from me.
The second movement is really too slow for my taste. Nevertheless, I must give you credit for staying WBMP all the way. Many of your criticizers cite this second movement as a counterargument, but you show that you are consistent and stay behind it, even in this second movement.
Sounds perfect to me, exactly what Beethoven intended. Anything faster just sounds clownish and stupid.
@@hoon_sol That’s entirely subjective, to me this sounds like a someone sight reading the piece for the first time because it’s so jarringly slow
@@burr69:
*WRONG.*
The entire point is that it's *NOT* subjective, this is a reconstruction of what the composer actually intended *OBJECTIVELY* speaking.
The only reason it sounds slow to you is because you're accustomed to the clownish and laughable speeds these pieces have ended up being performed at.
@@hoon_sol What someone thinks sounds good is subjective. What the composer notated is objective. You didn’t understand what I said.
Just because Beethoven notated it to be played like a slug doesn’t mean that’s what sounds best, because that’s entirely up to the listener. So to call what I think sounds good clownish is just gate keeping a genre of music that has been suffering from people like you
@@hoon_sol Maybe you’re mad cause you can’t play it that fast and elegantly 🤔
Love it! Wish I could hear this tempo in Live performances! Would be very interesting
Fascinating. A different piece from the one it's usually played as being. "Brio" not meaning "play this as fast as your fingers can". I suspect the sonatas that got the most play (and perhaps most abuse) are the ones that seem strangest. Given the evidence of how seriously Beethoven and Czerny took the MMs for his music and the impossibility of playing this piece twice as fast as this (and retaining any musicality or meaning) this must be what was intended. If that means we have to change our conception of it, well, that's what respecting a composers' intent often requires.
There is no 'impossibility'. Many pianists have played perfectly well using the correctly marked Czerny tempos, so no logical case remains.
Czerny himself wrote about the opening Grave 'we could only indicate the beats of the metronome in semiquavers' .. now it seems to me this cannot be intended to mean anything other than 1 beat (92) = 1 semiquaver.
Which is already a very slow tempo.
@@thomasdent742 That is a statement that is ridiculous, point me to the recordings.
Start with Backhaus and Schnabel, I guess. Backhaus well represented the late 19th century German tradition.
@@stringph If you mean that they played a single-beat rendition of the MMs that either Beethoven or Czerny published for the Beethoven sonatas, no, they didn't, not even close. You should listen to what Wim Winters says about the Hammerklavier, especially the fastest recording by Stephan Möller on a modern piano that is far more capable of playing fast than the pianos available to Beethoven or Czerny, it falls considerably below the MMs interpreted in single-beat. There are no recordings that do what is claimed. They don't exist.
Sometimes I like the slower sound, othertimes not. It's hard to believe this is really what was intended, just on hearing alone. I do think most classical Performances these days are too fast; but maybe the truth really lies in the middle.
There is no middle in a number, it's this or two times as fast the average.
@@roberacevedo8232 In my opinion if the historical tempo theory is correct then performing artists like Beethoven would have played 15% faster than this. Give a tempo that is achievable by the home pianist at the time, then you need to pay to see the incredible live performance. Well, the other theory that my piano teacher believe is that composers at the time hated the metronome, and when forced to add a marking by publishers would deliberately put ridiculous tempo's on.
Allister Brimble all your opinion.
Let’s check for evidence!
@@allisterbrimble1 The first one is possible. The second one is ridiculous with everything pointing against it. Time and time again we have seen that all the composers were dead serious about the mm and wanted you to play in tempo.
"Allegro molto e con brio"
I think that part should be play at 200 bpm( im learning it and i practice at 190 bpm to arrive at 200), but at this point the tempo would be "presto", so "Allegro molto e con brio" would be 170-180 bpm, because "Allegro" is like 130-160 bpm, but much pianists like playing this part at 230 or more than 230 bpm, but i like the sound at 200 bpm
+Fabio Mangone 20 bpm???
@@louiscouperin3731 i practice in 4/4, because it's a more regular beat than 2/2 so i can bring the tempo and don't lose it. In the grave section i set the metronome to 25 bpm. I only write a wrong number at the end of the other comment
Allegro means cheerful and con brio means with vigor. Italian movement descriptions have nothing to do with tempo, but rather setting the mood/tone of the piece.
@@ExAnimoPortugal I don't know about you, but this rendition doesn't really sound vigorous nor lively.
Beautiful playing!
I play this sonata for years now, not properly but with pleasure and just for me (and my wife if she's listening). But I had, more or less, the meanstream tempo in my head, because I heard it, and liked it (it's rarely the case). And... this tempo is a revelation ! This is soooo gooood!!! Everything is way much stronger, moving, every detail makes sense, everything becomes logic and musical. I'm gonna try it on my piano very soon.
Earlier this year I played the 2nd movement of this sonata at my piano class's annual recital, at about 69 BPM, even faster than Czerny's tempo in Half Beat (like most pianists I've heard). Then, about 2 months ago I discovered Czerny's edition of the Beethoven sonatas on IMSLP and tried his metronome setting for this movement. I personally thought it worked very well, but my mother and my teacher (both of whom I love immensely, and who are completely on board with WBMP) agreed that it was too slow. So I thought this particular eighth note = 54 might actually be Half Beat, and after listening to this recording, I have to say I'm still not sure.
music appreciation the same I felt with the second from the Apassionata... with three listenings I became used to it. I think it has to do with custom. Just my thoughts
Initially I liked the super-slowed-down Grave, but after studying this piece for a few months I find the end of the first movement (the Grave before the Adagio e cantabile starts) to be more powerful when the Allegro molto e con brio is played at an exhausting pace. I prefer to save my tears for that moment, instead of getting carried away with grief by the end of the first page.
My favorite performance I've found on youtube is by Annie Fischer. Some people seem to ignore Beethoven's dynamics, but she really puts her whole body into it when necessary! For now my RSI has me playing whole-beat speeds, which is part of the appeal of watching these vids, but I hope to catch up to the likes of her someday.
Good work! Just turn it up to 2x speed and it sounds almost as fast as Beethoven intended.
The mood is so more serious/black/introspective/grave at slower speed! Not manic. Very moving... I'm so used to the (all previous?) pianists speeding through the "school zone", so have to listen to this interpretation more than once to change my memory template:) Thank you for posting!
Well said.
@@tatianakouracheva3532 you are entitled to your opinion and preferences.
A brave musician, Alberto!
Really refreshing to hear this slow interpretation. I still prefer the modern style but it certainly makes a lot of sense to explore different tempi. Will definitely listen to the other Beethoven sonatas as well
Fantastica genious greeting from Aalborg Denmark thank you for the project
Bravo, Alberto! That was a breathtaking performance in all its pathos.
Wunderschoen!!! Vielen Dank!!!
Have you tested your theory on Lieder / other vocal music? I feel that would reveal a lot.
yes, and singers feel really at ease. It is another thing to bring them on the channel though, also they read the comments and fear the telephone won't be ringing for future concerts (also that's the world we musicians live in - but not enough realize)
@@AuthenticSound Doesn't the language stop making sense under a certain tempo threshold?
@@AuthenticSound Really? I left the conservatory due to a myriad of reasons, but I didn't know the classical music industry was so petty. Although I remember meeting a professor who was really early in the legitimate baroque playing style like 30 or 40 years ago and it was hard for him trying to use different temperaments and no vibrato while being taken seriously as a musician. Anyways, I'd didn't imagine a single performance could be so impactful, playing once here dosn't meant that they won't be able to play at a faster tempo later.
Very interesting (and enjoyable)!
From the opposite extreme, Alexandra Dovgan celebrated Beethoven's 250th birthday four days ago by posting a video of her performance of this PS.
She gets through the Adagio Cantabile in 4 mins 13 secs, which I believe to be a new record.
She was triple counting!
This is fascinating and it certainly reveals subtleties that are lost when the sonata (esp the last movement) is played at break-neck speed. But should we also infer, by the same reasoning, that Beethoven's symphonies, piano concerti and string quartets are all played twice as fast as Beethoven intended?
Single Beat tempi are but rarely played, since they are too fast.
I like the metronome effect that you put in some of the parts
I loved it!
He is a very good pianist in my opinion, however, the tempo doesn't sound natural which effects the emotional aspects of the piece. I have seen this piece performed live by some of the Greatest pianist who ever lived in the last 35 years and never heard one even close to playing it like this at this tempo and interpretation.
That's because no pianist today cares about what Beethoven had in mind...
@@olofstroander7745 Good I second your opinion. "Unauthentic Sound" is one of the most non-musical personalities I have ever encountered. This is a completely ridiculous performance. I have a lot more respect for Beethoven than this. We are being trolled.
@@AuthenticSound a lot of musicians dedicated their whole lives for Beethoven's music, but you are the smartest guy in the world, of course...
@@JoeLinux2000 Yeah I was very confused by what he was saying in some of his videos at first, but when I started watching some of these performances his theories made even less sense. I've played this sonata myself and the way he plays it just sucks all of the life out of the piece. There's no way this is what Beethoven had in mind
@AuthenticSound I am not expert but I find this version to take all storm as well as sincerity out of this piece. Its slowly hacking away in a weird way. The strange rubato (sounding almost like dotted eights and sixteenths) in the first movement makes it loose it's flow. It almost also sounds like the Alla Breve in the fast parts of the first movement is now counted as 4/4 which further increases the feeling of hacking through it.
You claim in an arrogant way that you more know about the perfomance of Beethoven than any other. Take Schnabel for example:
"Schnabel's pedagogical lineage included Beethoven himself. When he was around ten years old, he began studying with Theodor Leschetizky, who was a student of Carl Czerny, who was in turn Beethoven's student, close friend and assistant."
His recordings sound nothing like this. And take Beethoven Scholars like Igor Levitt and his interpretations! Sounds nothing like this.
I would bet that Schnabel is closer than you are!
If one notes this lineage of teachers to Beethoven (2 of them between). Was it Czerny ot Leshetizky that decided to double the tempo according your reasoning?
Did I miss something? Why is this much more slower than the clavichord version? i mean, I am not disapointed but it doesn't convince me at all.
Also de catabile is delightful
It makes the music more intense.
I wish I could hit a like separately for each movement. BRAVO!!
Wow, this is great. The Grave actually sounds as i would imagine a Grave should (so slow that everything stands by itself somehow). And then suddenly the allegro introduction really shines. Wonderful! It is no longer just a sea of harmonies, you can actually follow the themes and narrative of the piece
As always, it would be nice to see some of your own interpretations. I know this is supposed to be a tempo reconstruction, not interpretation. But it does feel a little flat at points, as some have noted in the comments.
it is in fact an interpretation, just one based upon a given tempo to start from. the 2024 version has been recorded a few weeks ago and will answer to the questions you raised. release in short, stay tuned 👍
Let's put WBMP and halfbeat on the back burner for now.
Let's just look at the MM#'s and the note values and compare them to the Italian tempo words.
M I: Allegro [di] molto (forget the con brio for now as it's a "character" or "mood" word, not a tempo) = Minim @ 144
M III: Allegro = Minim @ 96
The "[di] molto" is 150% faster than the Allegro in this piece according to Czerny.
Beethoven does the rest with note values. The tempi are "identical". Why? Beethoven uses the quaver at 144 in M I. Beethoven uses the triplet quaver at 96 in M III. The notes per second are equal.
Back to the back burner now: So, the question you ask yourself is, is Allegro ever 9.6 notes per second in 1798? According to the _ABSOLUTE_ sources I have access to, both Drs. Young (1800) and Crotch (1812) say resoundingly _"NO!"_
Unless you have another understanding or way to read the Metronome of Maelzel or the pendulum inches of those before and after the MM, you are stuck with an undocumented possibility (halfbeat) or a compleatly reasonable (documented) fact that Allegros were between 4 and 7 notes per second, never higher. You must go to the upper limit, and then allow the composer to use time signatures and note values to adjust the tempo of the piece.
If you want to play as fast as you can or feel like, that's _FINE_ !; however, it is not _AUTHENTIC_ or the _INTENTION_ of the composer. You have to deal with that reality.
Sidebar: The Adagio cantabile in 2/2 is at 6.75 measures per minute, but Beethoven uses semiquavers, not quavers; so the tempo is equivalent to an adagio of "C" time signature using quavers according to Quantz. That puts the triplet eighths at 81 per minute or 1.35 nps, which is 1/4 of the tempo of both movements. Pretty fast, in fact, considering that adagio is half of andante, which is half of allegretto, which is half again of allegro.
The Grave is literally "DEAD SLOW"; however, Beethoven uses up to a quasihemidemisemiquaver (128th note). Beethoven takes care of the tempo; all you need to do is OBEY him. Hm ... obedience ... Adam and Eve ... hm ... cogitate on that.
P.S. - Yes, friends, musicians used to think and organise music just like I have done here. Do you think Bach had time to sit and rewrite his music for the Lutheran Masses? Nope. Busy guy! He, like most musicians, can write out of their heads alone. That part of "Amadeus" was literally correct. Music was the last of the sciences to be learnt after: Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric, Arithmetic, Geometry, & Astronomy ... only then would you _DARE_ learn the science of music to become a "Licentiate Teacher".
Very well said!
@@makytondr8607 thank you. 🙏
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 What I think I hear your saying is that since the Italian tempo word "grave" means that the tempo is too slow. Please help me understand what you mean by further explaining your reasoning; I am interested in your understanding of this Italian tempo word ; thank you.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 I believe you meant "grave" instead of "largo". I've looked up the Bulow edition. If I remember, he's a 3rd generation away from Beethoven, viz., Czerny, Liszt, and Bulow. Bulow's tempo - no matter how you slice it - is exactly 1.5 times faster than Cerny's.
Now, Bulow states that the 4th measure last "nonuplets" should be played in strict time, and playing the first four notes as 128ths, and the last five as a quintuplet. In SBT, the first four notes would pass by at 18.4 nps and the quintuplet (5/4) would increase to 23 nps.
I do not think that this could be kept strictly in time as Bulow suggests. Can you tell the different between 18.4 and 23 Hz? This would be a "best guess" at most. As a point of reference, the lowest A on the piano beats at 27 Hz. This quintuplet would in fact produce its own "note" within the human audible range.
Now, using the _Whole Beat Metronome Principle_ , we would have 9.2 and 11.5 respectively.
Can we know for sure? No. Each person would need to determine for himself is he can keep better the 18.4/23 or the 9.s/11.5 division of the "128ths" in strict time.
Back to Czerny, whose tempo is 1.5 X slower ... it seems even a bit more sound that ~6 nps/7.333 nps is capable of being played in strict time even with the nonuplet in place.
What are you thoughts on these data?
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 So, if I have you right (don't worry about English - if you'd like to converse in Spanish or my "poor" French - at the moment - we can - sadly, I know no other languages except for Latin, which I can poke around in), I understand that the Bulow SBT method would be too fast, and that even the WBMP would be too fast, and that we're unsure about why Beethoven used these 128ths, and finally that Alberto's is even a wee bit too slow for your tastes. And of course, you're referring only to the Grave part where Alberto is concerned; do I have this right?
I'm still waiting for the second part of the Violin Concerto.
It sounds like music.
I listened to some pianists playing Chopin at practice speeds, and I finally like his music. I honestly think it sounds like noise played at the breakneck speeds of competitions.
OMG, I've developed my own tempo system with clearly defined rules and ratios for tempo words and for the 2nd movement I made a prediction.
Though it says 2/4, as it uses 32nd notes as the smallest structural note values and 2 harmonies per bar it's clearly more like a 4/8. So I would start with 30 for the quaver as an adagio speed (16th note = 60) but since it's very ornamented and cantabile as it's style, it's obviously got to be slowed down a touch. How much so I wasn't sure, so I took 2 predictions. The first being 53 for the 16th note if it slows down a lot, and 57 if it only slows down a little bit. And I settled on 57.
Then I went to this video to find the "correct" answer and in whole beat it reads 16th note = 54.
I'm so proud that I've managed to reach an almost exact answer.
Great !
Very balanced and deep tone.I play the first movement in 1/2=152(WBMP) according to an later Czerny edition,but i must say i like your tempo more.
Sorry honestly this performance seems ridiculously, even painfully slow to me.
What an amazing recording. The piece really comes alive at these tempi.
The second movement is one of my all-time favorites. 💕🎵💕
Glad you enjoy it!
This Sonata is as important as the Hammerklavier! Looking forward to it.
Great sonata. Really excited about this one.
I have watched many several of your videos and a few of these performances. I find it so hard to digest the entire possibility that what we have come to know about Beethoven being a dynamic composer is somehow completely lost with these recreations. I am thoroughly befuddled and awash with sadness.
Could it be that, what we are using to measure (a minute), could have POSSIBLY have been and imprecise measurement due to the non-standardization of timepieces of that time?
Help me out here, I am finding it so difficult take this in, to the fullest extent. Many KUDOS to Alberto Sanna for his kind and, shall I dare say, herculean efforts. Thank you reading.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 THANK you - I AGREE~ ♥ you're English is PERFECT :)
You're finding it hard to take in because the idea that these pieces were intended to be this slow is nonsense in the first place
I recalled that you played this before, Wim, and the 2nd movement was not that slow when you played it.
you're right, I recorded that in my 'pre-WBMP' days!
Hi Wim,
I saw a video the other day of Symour Berstein giving a masterclass lesson on this sonata, specifically the 2nd movement, and the guy he was teaching was not using the pedal (like Alberto here) and Bernstein complained it was "dry". The guy said he rather liked dry sometimes and Bernstein's response was "you play it your way, I'll play it Beethoven's way."
Needless to say he was playing it much to fast compared to whole beat.
Regarding the dry complaint, he also went onto say that the notes with a bow and staccato dots (portato) were meant to be played with a fully depressed key and then raising the hand off of the key whilst holding the sound open with the pedal. And I knew that was wrong given your video about moscheles saying it was meant to be without pedal and giving the note 2 thirds of the notes value indicated.
Firstly, do you know when Bernstein's idea of portato first came from? I suspect it's something like the late 19th century and has just stuck around. And secondly, how can people be so confident that they're playing "Beethoven's way" when, to my mind at least, they've never checked what they think, they just assume it's true because everybody else does?
I appreciate this is a bit of a random question but any insight would be useful
I like this. Its not autentic, but autenticity doesnt matter
why are you so sure it is not autentic, authentic meaning, the tempo at least close to what Czerny wanted?
Nice playing! Wim always emphasizes that you cannot play very fast on this piano because of the action. Please make a video comparing the action speed of period instruments such as the clavichord and harpsichord with modern concert grands. Also, what do you think of this performance? (ua-cam.com/video/-A1a8PCQfP0/v-deo.html) It is not played by a well-known virtuoso, but it is still faster than Czerny's speed. Did they increase the speed digitally or modify the action of the piano? It seems unbelievably fast.
I've been anticipating this one! The pathos is so often treated as mere unhappiness - it needs to express the "deep down in your bones" pain and total lack of hope - a true emptiness! IMHO the Adagio e Cantabile is too frequently too "upbeat" (emotionally). I believe it should express deep longing and separation. The rest of this work seems to me to express the chaos that results from hopelessness. This should be eye and ear-opening !!!
Agreed, Glenn! Too fast, and the Adagio cant. loses it's place in the f min. sect. Alberto super-did this thing! BOOM!
Magnifique
This is just lovely!
Pathetique! Absolutely Pathetique may I say, above all the second theme illustrate that. What a venture!
Movements 1 & 3 sound actually quite nice if played at 2x speed. So I really like Czerny's tempo here, it is still a bit slower than many pianists play it. Levit for example plays the Grave too slow and the Allegro con brio too fast (in my opinion.)
The Adagio is, for my taste, too slow even at 2x speed. Interesting that Czery suggests it so slowly.
wow, new benchmark: even single beat is too slow! Well, an answer really in line with this sonata: pathetic :-)
Rather pathetic answer from your side ;) but since this is a really great sonata, maybe you just wanted to express the same about my answer? ;)
btw: what Alberto plays here is always too slow (at least according to Czerny). Sorry for breaking the news.
Beethoven was much too impetuous and energetic a person to have wanted his music played so slowly.
You were acquainted I suppose? No, you just heard retellings of retelled stories about him.
He put this metronome number HIMSELF. Czerny, Moscheles, Ris were his pupils and made similar metronome marks
This piano (looks like a Schantz copy?) sounds excellent and would be really worth be played by a pianoforte player.
Just: love, love, love this. Thank you!
This is absolutely fantastic
Has it started yet ?
This "Pathetique" is my most favorite work from Beethoven. But the story mentioned by Beethoven is completely gone by lowering the tempo so much. Tempo and sound are one in creating the right mode to vibrate the according emotions.
This doesn't mean that tempo need to be exact a metronome tempo, and a very low tempo can give new technical insights of the work. Nevertheless, my appreciation for the pianist, because it is certain not easy if you are used to play the second piece of this part against a tempo 152 -160, and then playing the complete work at this slow tempo.
No one has lowered the tempo. This isn't a "slow" tempo. This is being played at the tempo Beethoven intended. This is the -right- tempo.
If anything ruins Beethoven's story, it's the ridiculously fast tempo most people typically perform this piece at.
Sorry, but for my taste, the second movement is TOO good
I wish i could play this well
Can someone please tell me whats the difference between this recording and wims older recording on the clavichord is?
Why did he play it faster in the old recording?
Im confused...... :
Becuse he was not know about wbmp
He was playing in the modern tempo interpretation
Changing the speed to times 2 makes it sound approvable. It becomes clear that in the slow movement his tempo-feel is way off.
I guess my bias is showing on this one as I was already very familiar hearing it played about 10% or more faster. First one I've watched where it was a bit of a challenge.
It does say Grave, after all. It's like using a microscope and taking in all the hitherto neglected details. Glenn Gould would have liked this.
Hello Mr. AuthenticSound , have you ever done research about the A = 440Hz? It seems that in the past piano's were tuned at 432Hz (e.g. Verdi).
Now with the electronic keyboards, it is easy to tune at 432Hz. and a lot of people think that classic pieces sounds better at this lower frequency.
432 was not really that common in the past. standard pitch was not really a thing for the 19th century. Every country had their own standard and the pitch changed in the same country during the century. Pitch in France varied between 435-448 and pitch in the UK varied between 425-456 all during the same century
@@sofiadahlen1187 Thank you very much for answering, Sofia! Therreason for asking this is because AuthenticSound did a lot of research about the tempi. But in audio, tempi has a lot common with frequency. So it is possible that the composer of a piece has set his tempo in order of the frequency his piano was tuned. Suppose that Chopin's piano was tuned at 448Hz when he wrote his "Funeral March" with as tempo "Lento". Then I think it would be possible that he had determined the tempo as "Larghetto" in case his piano was tuned at 435Hz.
@@anmeirdi It is an intressting theory to think about. I can of course just talk from my personal experience playing in a vide variety of pitches ranging from a=396 - a=448. I have not this far seen any corellation with playing slower while tuning to lower frequencies. This has been especially true for keyed instruments like organs and cembalos since the techique doesn't change with different pitches. There is a small difference with the possible speeds if we concider early french baroque flutes tuned at a=396 compared to later flutes tuned higher. But that difference is small and is caused by the fact that the lower tuned flute is bigger so the fingers have to stretch a bit more. Hope that is a good anwser :)
@@anmeirdi I would for pianos deffinetly not think it plausable that tuning 13Hz lower would be a reaso for a difference from Lento to Larghetto. Though that's quite easy to test
@@sofiadahlen1187 thanks for the comprehensive answer!
These thoughts about the correlation between speed and frequency arose because I myself tend to play a piano piece faster when I play it (just as a test) an octave higher. I don't know if other pianists also experience this, especially with fast piano pieces. If you have friends who also play the piano, you could check this by asking them to play a fast piano piece (eg Chopin's minute walz). First one octave lower than the score, then one octave higher than the score. If the lower is played slower than the higher one, their could be a relationship between the tuned instrument and the given tempi in the past. Best regards, Dirk
It makes so much sense in whole beat.. when Beethoven asks for those 128th notes in the Grave section, most people just play them as one big slur because they had started the movement way too fast and then it’s too late to adjust. So funny how we just ignore those little bits that don’t work because of incorrect tempo choice instead of trying to solve the problem!!! Same with the ornaments in the hand crossing sections.. in single beat they are so rushed and barely pronounced accurately, but in this tempo they are very graceful and elegant.
Maybe it could even be the reason/one of the reasons that this sonata is called pathetique, due to the incredibly un-usual tempo, also compared to other WBMP piano sonatas of Beethoven you have on this channel (e.g., Hammerklavier, Waldstein, etc)
I don’t understand, if you want an accurate performance why are you dumping the piece with choppiness and rubato and no dynamics ?
???
Alberto, I was already wondering how you would play the first 3 notes of the rondo. Im not really an expert with notation, but because of the grouping in 3 I tought at first, that it is meant to be a triplet (Because unlike in Chopin eg., where a triplet is marked with a 3, I always have to interpret a triplet in Beethoven by matching the note value to the bar or observing the grouping). But I was unsure after I realized, that I could not find a single Interpretation, where it is played as a triplet. In your version, it kinda sounds like a triplet at first, but then again, it could be because of the timing-accentuation of the following note (inegalite). How did you read this opening bar in terms of rhythm?
Beethoven was a very economical composer. Saying that he didn't write pedal so you shouldn't use it would be completely wrong. I really miss the pedal in this performance
Have you tried to play on period instruments, especially the older ones? You do not need the pedal most of the time, really. The legato comes from the fingers. Sure, you can wish for more pedal, but do you have any source that says that Beethoven used the pedal a lot? Or that Beethoven wasn't very specific about pedal use when he is specific about it in f.ex. his 4th piano concerto or the sonata op. 106?
You should also take the history of the piano pedal into consideration for this. The damper pedal had to be operated with the hand to start with. Probably only with Stein pianos (=Mozart or early Beethoven) you get a knee pedal to be operated with the leg. That means that the pedal was only used for special effects to begin with. Imagining arriving in 1798 when this piece was written: What are your odds that you will find a brandnew piano with a good pedal? (Please be also aware that the kind of piano that Alberto is playing is more than a decade younger than that date.) My guess: People probably also played this music on harpsichords and clavichords if there was no piano around.
@@claudiabatcke1312 sure, still dont think this is right though
@Jonathan Ross Ok, I have had a look around, and I have found a Ph.D. about the topic! (core.ac.uk/download/pdf/4832691.pdf ) It seems you are right - I am sorry for doubting you, Floris. According to Czerny, Beethoven used the pedal quite a lot, and he seems to have enjoyed experimenting with the effects the pedal could make. There must have been quite a few beautiful pianos around Vienna. :-) He doesn't write pedal marks down before 1801, so for finding a period way of pedaling, one needs to look to the slightly older Beethoven and/or to some of his contemporaries.
@@claudiabatcke1312 You are correct, Claudia. Wim and Alberto have videos that say exactly what you have said. Great post!
@@JérémyPresle pedal was mainly used for legato purposes that's where I miss them.
In my opinion the third movement is perfect in this tempo. The first movement also makes perfect sense. It will, however, take me a while to get used to the second movement.
It took me a year and playing lots more Adagios to come to grips with this. As one of the first pieces I ever learnt, imagine having to rewire childhood memories to conform to the truth of how "extremely slow" Adagios are. (Saint Saenz). Then the fact that the little "run" in 64ths and subsequent cadence never sat right. I think I'll see how other mainstreamers solved this problem. Great post!
I know the sonata very well. I learned it many years ago and studied it over and over again. It is very difficult for my habit to listen. But I have to admit, so much makes more sense here, slowly, clearly, transparently. But: We need to talk about agogic. It may be a matter of taste, but with all the love, in some places it's too much, the music stumbles, "hiccups". Let me say in conclusion, overall impressive. A bold and justified interpretation.
@@JérémyPresle yes you are right, lets go in details: maybe 4:21 the first note of four gets to much room. Its okay for me to give some weight on, but that's so much that I lose the expected end-point of the tirade. Also 5:36 , it produces a moment of standstill, of glide. In my opinion good in a closed peace or when its meant so , but i can not arrange it with con brio. Even in the "slow" playing I would prefer an agitative feeling, at least in this "scene".
Honestly sounds like you're playing the entire thing at half the speed because you're misunderstanding historic metronome markings in some way
I understand you're saying this. Problem though is that the modern way of reading a metronome can not be demonstrated in a sufficiently big % of pieces to really challenge our reading here which is, contrary to what you might have learned, very well proven to be historically accurate. Hope this helps!
Metronomes dont lie.
The Adagio seems at a wrong tempo to my ears. No flavour with these slow repeated notes. The melody loses its attractiveness.
The whole beat theory seems not making sens with this movement. To my ears anyway. Very interesting tho’.
So your 'ears' are a better guide than Beethoven's metronome markings? Ok.
I understand the double but why the rubato lol
Thank you
I want to hear an opera in WBMP. Tannhauser would be a good start.
Ha, ha, ha. The audience would be drinking hemlock before the third act.
N N Wagner despised the metronome and never included any metronome marks in his works.
@@brendanward2991 This is true only for the late works. Tannhauser has metronome marks written by Wagner
@@andreagregori3143 Really? I stand corrected. Thanks.
@@andreagregori3143 Correct. That is why I mentioned that opera.
Boringly slow. Your research is comical and wrong.
Can we not find in the literature of the 18th and early 19th centuries about musical performances any description of the DURATION of the ACTUAL PERFORMANCE of a certain composition that will indicate to us how fast the tempo was of that actual performance?! Similarly, can we find a reference to the actual duration of a Beethoven concert of known program where the specific compositions are known?
ua-cam.com/video/gsntpykv1jQ/v-deo.html
handel hwv 432 passacaglia please
Old video with Handel: ua-cam.com/video/fFX1jP2I5Qs/v-deo.html
@@AuthenticSound thanks, but i asked suite no 7 in g minor
Play at double speed and it will be all normal again!