What?? The clarinetist didn’t suffocate? Impossible! Surely this isn’t truly in whole beat... Okay but seriously now, this is so beautiful... Thank you for this heavenly music, Wim and friends!
The comment below gives precisely the right words to describe the heavenly weight the slower tempo places upon the music! "The first movement has a delightful lilting quality that is completely lost at the "normal" tempos we hear today. It's like the morning strolls in the country that Mr B loved so much." Indeed the opening D-Eb "pushes" become radiant and grand and gentle, like the rays of the sun peeking above the horizon during a soft dawn. Never have I heard them before so... at peace. @27:56 the crushing plodding of the piano and the keen of the high cello finally gives that passage the weight and tragedy it deserves.
Here I am, returning to this trio once again, this time on Thanksgiving Day 2020, more convinced than ever that this tempo is what the great master had in mind when he composed this work.
I'm currently marking exams online in lockdown. This was just what I needed in the evening - meditative, for me anyway, unlike the striving, which I often associate with Beethoven - and also enjoy at other times. Thank you to all involved!
I wasn't sure about your theory.however, I gave this piece a try and it's my first time listening to it too. Then I listened to a mainstream recording and it awfully sounds like its coming from a circus show. I can't listen to any other recording except yours and the tempo really makes sense now.
That's often the case with pieces one haven't heard before. The reason most people like their Beethoven extremely fast is because we've only ever been exposed to fast recordings.
As I listen to it as a musician, it feels wonderful. The meaning of each note clear, and I have time to feel it deeply. The moods come and go at a human pace. I will leave the musicology to you, but I wish to complement you on the musicianship and expression of this music. I was deeply moved.
What is remarkable----the story goes---is that Beethoven could not invent a melody for love nor money, but--if he were given or borrowed a melody could elaborate on it endlessly. The conclusion appears to be self-evident. I would hope to learn from those who know whether there is any truth to the premise
Remarkable, memorable performance! One can hear the drama of the music unfold, with all its inner parts. A music professor I once had remarked that if a piece is played TOO fast, one cannot hear the music. I can really hear your music!
Having never heard the piece - or if I did, hadn't noticed - or having never looked at the score for which tempi, etc., It was perfect Beethoven, and the coordination and technique of the team involved were supreme. Having failed at a recording today myself - of the Mozart of all things ... geez - I really hand it to you trio for your concentration, poise, and musicianship. This is Beethoven; this is music!
@@thomashughes4859 Absolutely! A famous concert pianist said he always felt uncomfortable playing Mozart in concerts because he felt vulnerable due to no place to hide. When I applied to UMass-Lowell, my audition included Mozart's Fantasy K457/475 in c, and so impressed them they let me in hands down! :-)
The sound's combination of these 3 specific instruments is amazing and the construction of the movements' tempi (especially at the beginning and the last movement at 1:02"43. which I call the 2 mysterious picks of this Trio) - is superb! I've never heard this kind of interpretation to this Trio. Bravi!!!
Wim, Congratulations to you and your amazing colleagues. I very much enjoyed the session and suspect I will listen many more times. This is pure excellence.
Wonderful. The first movement has a delightful lilting quality that is completely lost at the "normal" tempos we hear today. It's like the morning strolls in the country that Mr B loved so much.
Mount Olympus!! I have to admit, this sounds like the kind of Performance Practice summer meetings at Rhodes College here in Memphis at which I had the good fortune to meet and speak with Christopher Hogwood in person, albeit briefly. He wasn’t very interested in the doings of a Pipe and Drum Band on Long Island, I guess
This research gets more interesting every time you post a new performance. This one with the appropriate clarinet and cello is fascinating. The 3rd movement is quite revealing, especially to a piano teacher of advanced beginners.
The sustained legato of winds and strings compared to keyboard instruments enable a easier transition to historical tempi. One is carried along as on a magic carpet.
I think most people forget how fragile these early instruments were. Playing quickly would have given them a pounding! Plus this clarinet wasn't that far removed from an advanced chalumeau, which used mainly recorder fingerings! One thing more, since life back then was slower than today, would they have considered this "slower" more normal than slower? Also, many musicians back then we're amateurs; very few full timers unlike today. Plus, pitch was probably determined more by these early instruments than the performers.
I really enjoyed this more than a lot. Chamber music has always been my favorite genre, and I've heard this performed before but it was a typical performance without life. This one held me at the edge of my seat because each at moment the music had something to offer.
@@JérémyPresle I've looked into wbmp with an open mind, researched it, and there's a great deal of evidence to the contrary. Like how symphonies from the time took about the same amount of time to be played as they do in modern day. I just didn't feel like writing all of it in a UA-cam comment to someone who is wrong but thinks they're right. It's not like what I say will change your mind, or vice versa. Here's an interesting video on how Beethoven used tempo. ua-cam.com/video/tIrQZZV-cyo/v-deo.html
Come siete bravi! This is the first time I have actually enjoyed this work. The choice of tempi and thus the enabling of the different articulation marks must have had something to do with it.
This tempo completely makes sense. These were pieces that were meant to be danced to. Now imagine 17th century fat and unfit royals trying to dance to something twice as fast.
Why in the world should the 8th note get two ticks in the slow movement? Wim, please explain! This is highly impractical. I would really appreciate a response.
Well played ! I really admire Mr. Miani's breath control ! Lips and lungs of steel ! :-) Must be very difficult to control such a "basic" instrument. Bravo ! The trio sounds very satisfying musically at this tempo however I do have my doubts that this slow interpretation of the historical "tempo de menuetto" is feasible, given the nature and (well documented by contemporary dance masters) steps of the historical dance. Once something is specifically marked "tempo de (a dance)" the meaning seems fairly clear that it refers to the pace at which the specified dance is, or was, danced. Nevertheless, well played as an illustration of double beat tempo realization.
you must know there were more than one minuet at the time. You had the old early 18th c style that got featured in 'orchestral' music (or piano...) and the new style dance menuet, much slower, like this one. See, all those facts matter!
@@AuthenticSound Of course I know that the tempo of dances change over time and with regional variations. True of waltzes, polkas, mazurkas, verbunks and every other traditional ballroom or folk dance with a wider dispersion :-) Usually radical differences in tempo either way (much faster or slower) though are reflected in changes to the steps themselves e.g. the fast Viennese waltz vs the English slow waltz, the Szekler verbunk vs the Moravian etc. I myself have never seen a historically documented (via dance notation by contemporaries) version of a minuet which would fit the tempo de minuetto of your recording. I know I couldn't possibly do the minuet I had learned when I belonged to a baroque dance class years back at that speed. If you have seen an authentic (period) version of a minuet danced at that slow a speed I take your word on it :-) I don't pretend to be a classical dance historian or to have seen every dance in the world. By the way, have you read the comments by Pianolainstitute on his technical analysis of the tempos on the tempo authenticated (by Grieg) piano rolls that he posted on your Peer Gynt video's comment section ? They make interesting reading with regards to what the marking indicated about historical performance practice at the time as well as how tempos were calculated from the rolls, A valuable external resource I think :-) Anyway, don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the recording of the trio and thought you all played well interpreting the music at the double beat tempo.
@@AuthenticSound Equal Temperament is really a 20th century thing---it didn't become standard until 1917. There is evidence that Mozart was using 1/6 comma Meantone. I know it's a big deal to change the temperaments, but it would be interesting to see what effect they have on tempo---I think I know what the answer will be: ua-cam.com/video/rOFlvUJHreg/v-deo.html
@Henry, be careful now... equal temperament was already described in the earliest sources we have, fretted plucked instruments in the 17th century were most often tuned in ET, Werckmeister describes ET in 1708, Neidhardt in 1724, Mattheson, CPEBach 1756, Barthold Fritz 1756, Turk 1789,... It pretty much was a standard for the 'elite' musicians keyboard players from ca 1700, certainly 1720. Did you really think I haven't study that as a clavichord player :-)?
@@AuthenticSound Certainly not my intention, and I apologize if it came across as such. No, I just wanted to say that since unequal temperaments were so common, it might be interesting to see what effect they have on the music, particularly with tempo. In the video I linked to (because some others might find it interesting) the the piano technician mentioned that when playing the Chopin Marche Funebre (B-flat minor) in Young Well Temperament he was forced *by the piano* to play slower, and when playing the same piece in 12-tone Equal Temperament he had to play faster to retain interest because the chords were so uniform and bland. I have heard this from other players as well. So, basically, my question is: has the now universal standard of 12-tone ET contributed to the acceleration of tempi as a means of retaining interest and to cover over the lack of color?
@@AuthenticSound right I wasn't sure if that was the case, I'll check later that source you are referring to. So interesting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I learn a lot with your videos
I remember his reply to that, a while ago... He said something like "It would probably be the most boring music ever" 😂 Personally I think he'd surprise himself if he tried, it tends to happen with writing at least.
@@surgeeo1406 It would still be interesting. Especially if he took it from the perspective of "whats the unique sound" I can make with this instrument.
Aside from the ridiculously slow tempi, the intonation leaves a lot to be desired (the very first chord is utterly out of tune), as does the ensemble. Articulations, dynamic developments of phrases, the sheer length of some notes are, to put it bluntly, badly synchronised. This piece would have benefitted from a whole lot more rehearsals. The clarinettist and cellist seem banished to eternal mp, lest they run out of breath/bow on longer phrases/notes. And over it all lies the silly, pointless, self-indulgent waving or Mr. Winter's left hand.
Thanks a lot Maestro! Since behind this comment I clearly feel a great musician, I will certainly take in serious consideration your words and work very hard on your suggestions to improve my technique!
@@AuthenticSound My grief is not with pianists conducting an ensemble from the piano, if that ensemble requires conducting. My grief is with affectations that serve no purpose other than showing how "expressive" the music is, or how much of an "artist" the performer is. My grief is with pretentious movements, hand, head, body or otherwise, that exist only for the purpose of making a show of oneself.
man you must hate Glenn Gould or Ton Koopman... your comment almost reads as if you really know...and poor me with all my show-off movements that I finally learn have no meaning. On a serious note, thank you but no thanks, I can manage don't worry
@@AuthenticSound Yeah, I find watching them really painful, but I fail to see how this has any bearing on the issue at hand. Doesn't matter whether I "know" or not, as you put it, though I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. What matters is that you put this video out on the internet for an audience to watch, and like it or not, I happen to be a part of the audience. Some people in your audience might not mind your hand-waving, others, like me, do. Reading through the comments on this video, it seems wrong to me for you to only be confronted with the feedback of your most ardent and uncritical fans. After all, like any musician, you're trying to get a product to an audience, and as shitty and unartistic this sounds: their approval of that product determines your income. So, whilst you don't need to agree with criticism, or like it, or whilst you might feel it's unwarranted, I have often found that seriously thinking about criticism will yield more results than offering sarcastic retorts, even if that criticism seems unfair or unjustified. And no, before you accuse me of condescending, I'm not making the effort of writing all this because I want to "help" you or because I think "I know better". It's because I hate seeing people contorting with insincere, affected movements on stage, it's because I hate having good performances ruined and bad performance made even worse by silly gestures, and I'd very much like for people to stop doing this, for young, impressionable musicians to copy such movements from their favourite artists. My goal is purely egotistical.
I noticed something. When Jesus says the first shall be last, He is right. Find one of my "firsts" and rearrange the order of the comments from newest first. Who's last? 😉👍
@@bryanbarajasBB I see your point. I think you "see/feel/recognise" if male human beings are creating a (male) god (it's not a goodness!). Love is important for human beings! I think/feel if male human beings are creating a male god/love the result is a more male result than a human result. Humanbeingness is common for human beings. If male human beings emphasize more their humanbeingness all female human beings have a better life because their humanbeingness has more weight and place. Our planet earth is full of male ideas and needs more female ideas to become more human. So the humanbeingness for all human beings worldwide is connecting us all. The internet for all human beings worldwide from the 90s is now helping us all to show and recognise that we all have all the humanbeingness in commen. I remember that we discussed about the internet for all human beings in the ESG Erlangen Germany Franconia between 1993 and 1997. After the Viva TV Testphase with a Skype similar connection from Erlangen to cologne (the communication style was not appreciating humanbeingness, a typical behaviour of the new private TV broadcasting companies in the 90s in Germany). So the internet for all human beings was invented and for me already "there" (it just took time to make it reality) in my head. I was a teacher student and no IT nerd. I had ideas but couldn't realise them because of the existing structure of our society here in Germany. And I was tiered of fighting. There are many "silver backs" also in the 90s who were there even they had no "Internet for all human beings worldwide" in their heads. I had a peaceful and friendly idea of the internet for all human beings worldwide. And eg all religions would be challenged because of the internet for all human beings worldwide. To be honest and authentic was/is important for politics. I said during the Viva TV Testphase: I want to become Bundeskanzler of Germany. And what I am writing here should explain why I was careful to be a public person. All German laws and rules are challenged as regonal laws if you take the internet for all human beings worldwide seriously. The insight is enough for human beings who have an insight and they can act because of their insights. I didn't liked the Bonner Republik because of their medial appearance in TV etc. The gap of topics and the way of behaviour in the public media and in the society was feed backing each other. And I liked to have a normal life. I got attention in Bonn because of my idea for an internet for all human beings worldwide but the way the Bonner Republik reacted was special. A general income for all who want it was possible. And all the fighting was not necessary anymore. So I didn't understand why all politicians in the Bonner Republik couldn't have an insight to change to a better place. The form "Internet" was growing and the content was up to each human being worldwide. Each human being can choose how and when and with whom he/she/it wants to be connected worldwide. So eg the national idea or the religions (moral or ethic) the economic systems and public media appearance of human beings was changing the last 25 years. That was very likely but I couldn't predict the future of course. The "whole net" was not there already and the number of human beings would change and develop step by step. Difficult to say how. That was not my cup of tea. I just wanted to become Bundeskanzler. The idea was there and I liked to have a "normal life" and I liked the option to become Bundeskanzler of Germany. This long text tries to explain why I think a "female love" is important to combine the 4 elements. Humanbeingness connects us all nowerdays here in the internet. Bw Peter Babnik Viva TV inventor and Optimist 🙂
What?? The clarinetist didn’t suffocate? Impossible! Surely this isn’t truly in whole beat...
Okay but seriously now, this is so beautiful... Thank you for this heavenly music, Wim and friends!
The comment below gives precisely the right words to describe the heavenly weight the slower tempo places upon the music! "The first movement has a delightful lilting quality that is completely lost at the "normal" tempos we hear today. It's like the morning strolls in the country that Mr B loved so much." Indeed the opening D-Eb "pushes" become radiant and grand and gentle, like the rays of the sun peeking above the horizon during a soft dawn. Never have I heard them before so... at peace.
@27:56 the crushing plodding of the piano and the keen of the high cello finally gives that passage the weight and tragedy it deserves.
Here I am, returning to this trio once again, this time on Thanksgiving Day 2020, more convinced than ever that this tempo is what the great master had in mind when he composed this work.
Finally Beethoven that I enjoy hearing. Thanks. Very musical....
I'm currently marking exams online in lockdown. This was just what I needed in the evening - meditative, for me anyway, unlike the striving, which I often associate with Beethoven - and also enjoy at other times. Thank you to all involved!
Wonderful!
I wasn't sure about your theory.however, I gave this piece a try and it's my first time listening to it too. Then I listened to a mainstream recording and it awfully sounds like its coming from a circus show. I can't listen to any other recording except yours and the tempo really makes sense now.
That's often the case with pieces one haven't heard before. The reason most people like their Beethoven extremely fast is because we've only ever been exposed to fast recordings.
This is perfection, truly, beautiful in every way. Thank you Wim, Massimiliano, anonymous cellist, and Anja for your groundbreaking work. ❤️
Listening to the trio again. The Fritz sounds wonderful. We need more chamber music in whole beat!
I like this--It's a piece I'm not familiar with so it's a "virgin" listen for me. Now I can truly judge if it sounds too slow or not.
Great to read John!
This is really beautiful. Chapeau
As I listen to it as a musician, it feels wonderful. The meaning of each note clear, and I have time to feel it deeply. The moods come and go at a human pace. I will leave the musicology to you, but I wish to complement you on the musicianship and expression of this music. I was deeply moved.
thank you!
There are some moments of counterpoint here that are absolutely sublime. Beethoven's sense of melody is so gripping.
What is remarkable----the story goes---is that Beethoven could not invent a melody for love nor money, but--if he were given or borrowed a melody could elaborate on it endlessly. The conclusion appears to be self-evident. I would hope to learn from those who know whether there is any truth to the premise
Remarkable, memorable performance! One can hear the drama of the music unfold, with all its inner parts. A music professor I once had remarked that if a piece is played TOO fast, one cannot hear the music. I can really hear your music!
The HEAVEN of this...thank you!
This is incredible!!! So much depth and passion. The skill demonstrated by all three players truly brings life to the music. How can you top this Wim?
Thank you for this. It would be very interesting to hear a double beat interpretation of the Grosse Fugue. Thank you again.
Having never heard the piece - or if I did, hadn't noticed - or having never looked at the score for which tempi, etc., It was perfect Beethoven, and the coordination and technique of the team involved were supreme.
Having failed at a recording today myself - of the Mozart of all things ... geez - I really hand it to you trio for your concentration, poise, and musicianship.
This is Beethoven; this is music!
The challenge piece isn't so easy in many subtle and not so subtle ways!!
@@Clavichordist John, Mozart is pure light, and no shadow exists under which any can hide. You got that right, my friend. 👍
@@thomashughes4859 Absolutely! A famous concert pianist said he always felt uncomfortable playing Mozart in concerts because he felt vulnerable due to no place to hide.
When I applied to UMass-Lowell, my audition included Mozart's Fantasy K457/475 in c, and so impressed them they let me in hands down! :-)
@@Clavichordist Great! I love your stories.
After hearing all those different kinds of instruments play using the wbpm, the next logical step should be to see how the human voice will fare.
Here you can hear Schubert in wbpm ua-cam.com/video/nKeLMyEheSY/v-deo.html
@@historicpiano411 Thank you for this.
The sound's combination of these 3 specific instruments is amazing and the construction of the movements' tempi (especially at the beginning and the last movement at 1:02"43. which I call the 2 mysterious picks of this Trio) - is superb! I've never heard this kind of interpretation to this Trio. Bravi!!!
I love this!! Would you record yourself playing some Bach on this piano?? I bet it would be lovely!!
this is heaven! Not only historical tempo but also 432 hz. Thank you so much ;-) !!!
._.
Wim, Congratulations to you and your amazing colleagues. I very much enjoyed the session and suspect I will listen many more times. This is pure excellence.
Hier heb ik van genoten Wim,😍
Ah, daar zie, mijn favoriete tante :-) (en nog zo'n 50 smiley's)
AuthenticSound ❤️
Wonderful. The first movement has a delightful lilting quality that is completely lost at the "normal" tempos we hear today. It's like the morning strolls in the country that Mr B loved so much.
Mount Olympus!! I have to admit, this sounds like the kind of Performance Practice summer meetings at Rhodes College here in Memphis at which I had the good fortune to meet and speak with Christopher Hogwood in person, albeit briefly. He wasn’t very interested in the doings of a Pipe and Drum Band on Long Island, I guess
Absolutely wonderful ! Great answer for those who had always insisted that wind and strings are impossible in whole beat !
Sounds almost like a completely different piece. Amazing how WBMP can affect our perception of historical music.
The most important aspect that shines through is that it becomes Human music, and not a suffocating, alien one from Adrenaline-land. :P
This research gets more interesting every time you post a new performance. This one with the appropriate clarinet and cello is fascinating. The 3rd movement is quite revealing, especially to a piano teacher of advanced beginners.
The sustained legato of winds and strings compared to keyboard instruments enable a easier transition to historical tempi. One is carried along as on a magic carpet.
Ben na het beluisteren van deze mooie uitvoering van plan bij het spelen van mijn instrument (luit) ook rustiger tempi te gaan nemen
I think most people forget how fragile these early instruments were. Playing quickly would have given them a pounding! Plus this clarinet wasn't that far removed from an advanced chalumeau, which used mainly recorder fingerings! One thing more, since life back then was slower than today, would they have considered this "slower" more normal than slower? Also, many musicians back then we're amateurs; very few full timers unlike today. Plus, pitch was probably determined more by these early instruments than the performers.
@@chlorinda4479 Is the human heart beat the same now, as in the historical past, about 60 per minute? Is that relevant in any way to historical tempi?
@@777rogerf I don't think so.
Now would you mind asking a question that is relevant to historical tempi?
Thank you! Really a treasure. Congrats.
Belíssimo! Tocante, terno. Bravo! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 👏
I really enjoyed this more than a lot. Chamber music has always been my favorite genre, and I've heard this performed before but it was a typical performance without life. This one held me at the edge of my seat because each at moment the music had something to offer.
Bravo! What an absolutely delightful and enchanting performance! Thanks so much.
I missed the premiere while working on the WBMP challenge... However, this was beautiful and I didn't know there was a trio version of the Septet!
There's a piano solo version too, a much later translation by Rösler on IMSLP.
I mean just listen to the very beginning... It sounds utterly absurd slowed down this much. There is no way. I cannot believe it.
@@JérémyPresle you people are the Flat earther"s of music.
@@JérémyPresle I've looked into wbmp with an open mind, researched it, and there's a great deal of evidence to the contrary. Like how symphonies from the time took about the same amount of time to be played as they do in modern day. I just didn't feel like writing all of it in a UA-cam comment to someone who is wrong but thinks they're right. It's not like what I say will change your mind, or vice versa. Here's an interesting video on how Beethoven used tempo. ua-cam.com/video/tIrQZZV-cyo/v-deo.html
No matter right or wrong, the beginning of this is the most heavenly thing I ever heard.
You picked the only place everybody agrees on...
Come siete bravi! This is the first time I have actually enjoyed this work. The choice of tempi and thus the enabling of the different articulation marks must have had something to do with it.
May the 4th be with you. 😎👍
How did you comment this 4 days ago?
This is the closest we can get to time travel.
Astounding! Please, now the Kegelstatt trio, k.498!!!! It would be the perfect pair to this rendition!
This tempo completely makes sense. These were pieces that were meant to be danced to. Now imagine 17th century fat and unfit royals trying to dance to something twice as fast.
hahaha!
This tempo makes zero sense. The pauses are absurdly long... The phrasing is wrong, impulses in the wrong places... Etc. Awful, and very clearly WRONG
Beautiful!
Thank you! Loved it! :)
So much Mozart in this
Why in the world should the 8th note get two ticks in the slow movement? Wim, please explain! This is highly impractical. I would really appreciate a response.
to start, please check the tempo reality check, or search for the Beethoven 1808 concert on my channel, or Mersenne
Wonderful!
Well played ! I really admire Mr. Miani's breath control ! Lips and lungs of steel ! :-) Must be very difficult to control such a "basic" instrument. Bravo ! The trio sounds very satisfying musically at this tempo however I do have my doubts that this slow interpretation of the historical "tempo de menuetto" is feasible, given the nature and (well documented by contemporary dance masters) steps of the historical dance. Once something is specifically marked "tempo de (a dance)" the meaning seems fairly clear that it refers to the pace at which the specified dance is, or was, danced. Nevertheless, well played as an illustration of double beat tempo realization.
you must know there were more than one minuet at the time. You had the old early 18th c style that got featured in 'orchestral' music (or piano...) and the new style dance menuet, much slower, like this one. See, all those facts matter!
@@AuthenticSound Of course I know that the tempo of dances change over time and with regional variations. True of waltzes, polkas, mazurkas, verbunks and every other traditional ballroom or folk dance with a wider dispersion :-) Usually radical differences in tempo either way (much faster or slower) though are reflected in changes to the steps themselves e.g. the fast Viennese waltz vs the English slow waltz, the Szekler verbunk vs the Moravian etc. I myself have never seen a historically documented (via dance notation by contemporaries) version of a minuet which would fit the tempo de minuetto of your recording. I know I couldn't possibly do the minuet I had learned when I belonged to a baroque dance class years back at that speed. If you have seen an authentic (period) version of a minuet danced at that slow a speed I take your word on it :-) I don't pretend to be a classical dance historian or to have seen every dance in the world. By the way, have you read the comments by Pianolainstitute on his technical analysis of the tempos on the tempo authenticated (by Grieg) piano rolls that he posted on your Peer Gynt video's comment section ? They make interesting reading with regards to what the marking indicated about historical performance practice at the time as well as how tempos were calculated from the rolls, A valuable external resource I think :-) Anyway, don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the recording of the trio and thought you all played well interpreting the music at the double beat tempo.
Amazing
This was wonderful btw. Don't think I said anything first time around... any chance getting some Bach trio sonatas one day?
Interesting approach, I’m wandering what kind of tuning are you using for your piano, this doesn’t sounds like 12TET, am I wrong?
it's aimed at ET, but a fortepiano likes to 'wander' a bit and I then just try to keep it within margins
@@AuthenticSound Equal Temperament is really a 20th century thing---it didn't become standard until 1917. There is evidence that Mozart was using 1/6 comma Meantone. I know it's a big deal to change the temperaments, but it would be interesting to see what effect they have on tempo---I think I know what the answer will be: ua-cam.com/video/rOFlvUJHreg/v-deo.html
@Henry, be careful now... equal temperament was already described in the earliest sources we have, fretted plucked instruments in the 17th century were most often tuned in ET, Werckmeister describes ET in 1708, Neidhardt in 1724, Mattheson, CPEBach 1756, Barthold Fritz 1756, Turk 1789,... It pretty much was a standard for the 'elite' musicians keyboard players from ca 1700, certainly 1720. Did you really think I haven't study that as a clavichord player :-)?
@@AuthenticSound Certainly not my intention, and I apologize if it came across as such. No, I just wanted to say that since unequal temperaments were so common, it might be interesting to see what effect they have on the music, particularly with tempo. In the video I linked to (because some others might find it interesting) the the piano technician mentioned that when playing the Chopin Marche Funebre (B-flat minor) in Young Well Temperament he was forced *by the piano* to play slower, and when playing the same piece in 12-tone Equal Temperament he had to play faster to retain interest because the chords were so uniform and bland. I have heard this from other players as well. So, basically, my question is: has the now universal standard of 12-tone ET contributed to the acceleration of tempi as a means of retaining interest and to cover over the lack of color?
@@AuthenticSound right I wasn't sure if that was the case, I'll check later that source you are referring to. So interesting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I learn a lot with your videos
#WBMPclassic How about a tag like this?
Wim should compose for his pianoforte.
I remember his reply to that, a while ago... He said something like "It would probably be the most boring music ever" 😂
Personally I think he'd surprise himself if he tried, it tends to happen with writing at least.
@@surgeeo1406 It would still be interesting. Especially if he took it from the perspective of "whats the unique sound" I can make with this instrument.
Aside from the ridiculously slow tempi, the intonation leaves a lot to be desired (the very first chord is utterly out of tune), as does the ensemble. Articulations, dynamic developments of phrases, the sheer length of some notes are, to put it bluntly, badly synchronised. This piece would have benefitted from a whole lot more rehearsals. The clarinettist and cellist seem banished to eternal mp, lest they run out of breath/bow on longer phrases/notes. And over it all lies the silly, pointless, self-indulgent waving or Mr. Winter's left hand.
Yeah, imagine pianists in history conducting from the piano... what a ridiculous thought that would be....
Thanks a lot Maestro! Since behind this comment I clearly feel a great musician, I will certainly take in serious consideration your words and work very hard on your suggestions to improve my technique!
@@AuthenticSound My grief is not with pianists conducting an ensemble from the piano, if that ensemble requires conducting. My grief is with affectations that serve no purpose other than showing how "expressive" the music is, or how much of an "artist" the performer is. My grief is with pretentious movements, hand, head, body or otherwise, that exist only for the purpose of making a show of oneself.
man you must hate Glenn Gould or Ton Koopman... your comment almost reads as if you really know...and poor me with all my show-off movements that I finally learn have no meaning. On a serious note, thank you but no thanks, I can manage don't worry
@@AuthenticSound Yeah, I find watching them really painful, but I fail to see how this has any bearing on the issue at hand.
Doesn't matter whether I "know" or not, as you put it, though I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. What matters is that you put this video out on the internet for an audience to watch, and like it or not, I happen to be a part of the audience. Some people in your audience might not mind your hand-waving, others, like me, do. Reading through the comments on this video, it seems wrong to me for you to only be confronted with the feedback of your most ardent and uncritical fans. After all, like any musician, you're trying to get a product to an audience, and as shitty and unartistic this sounds: their approval of that product determines your income. So, whilst you don't need to agree with criticism, or like it, or whilst you might feel it's unwarranted, I have often found that seriously thinking about criticism will yield more results than offering sarcastic retorts, even if that criticism seems unfair or unjustified. And no, before you accuse me of condescending, I'm not making the effort of writing all this because I want to "help" you or because I think "I know better". It's because I hate seeing people contorting with insincere, affected movements on stage, it's because I hate having good performances ruined and bad performance made even worse by silly gestures, and I'd very much like for people to stop doing this, for young, impressionable musicians to copy such movements from their favourite artists. My goal is purely egotistical.
sehr hübsch!!!
Second! Thomas, a distant third.
I noticed something. When Jesus says the first shall be last, He is right. Find one of my "firsts" and rearrange the order of the comments from newest first. Who's last? 😉👍
Thomas Hughes Touché! 😀
Third, i suppose
Celibidache fanboy detected
I'm the fifth element, Love! Ha!
Like in Frozen 2 when Elsa is the fifth element beside water wind earth and fire?
@@peterbabnikpunktde Bruce Willis, the Fifth Element or Saint Paul, first Corinthians, Love!😉👍
@@bryanbarajasBB so Elsa is female love and connecting all other 4 elements. Do you agree? Your both examples are typical male ideas.
@@peterbabnikpunktde God is love not genitals. Do you agree love matters not who or what your genitals are?
@@bryanbarajasBB I see your point. I think you "see/feel/recognise" if male human beings are creating a (male) god (it's not a goodness!). Love is important for human beings! I think/feel if male human beings are creating a male god/love the result is a more male result than a human result. Humanbeingness is common for human beings. If male human beings emphasize more their humanbeingness all female human beings have a better life because their humanbeingness has more weight and place. Our planet earth is full of male ideas and needs more female ideas to become more human. So the humanbeingness for all human beings worldwide is connecting us all. The internet for all human beings worldwide from the 90s is now helping us all to show and recognise that we all have all the humanbeingness in commen. I remember that we discussed about the internet for all human beings in the ESG Erlangen Germany Franconia between 1993 and 1997. After the Viva TV Testphase with a Skype similar connection from Erlangen to cologne (the communication style was not appreciating humanbeingness, a typical behaviour of the new private TV broadcasting companies in the 90s in Germany). So the internet for all human beings was invented and for me already "there" (it just took time to make it reality) in my head. I was a teacher student and no IT nerd. I had ideas but couldn't realise them because of the existing structure of our society here in Germany. And I was tiered of fighting. There are many "silver backs" also in the 90s who were there even they had no "Internet for all human beings worldwide" in their heads. I had a peaceful and friendly idea of the internet for all human beings worldwide. And eg all religions would be challenged because of the internet for all human beings worldwide. To be honest and authentic was/is important for politics. I said during the Viva TV Testphase: I want to become Bundeskanzler of Germany. And what I am writing here should explain why I was careful to be a public person. All German laws and rules are challenged as regonal laws if you take the internet for all human beings worldwide seriously. The insight is enough for human beings who have an insight and they can act because of their insights. I didn't liked the Bonner Republik because of their medial appearance in TV etc. The gap of topics and the way of behaviour in the public media and in the society was feed backing each other. And I liked to have a normal life. I got attention in Bonn because of my idea for an internet for all human beings worldwide but the way the Bonner Republik reacted was special. A general income for all who want it was possible. And all the fighting was not necessary anymore. So I didn't understand why all politicians in the Bonner Republik couldn't have an insight to change to a better place. The form "Internet" was growing and the content was up to each human being worldwide. Each human being can choose how and when and with whom he/she/it wants to be connected worldwide. So eg the national idea or the religions (moral or ethic) the economic systems and public media appearance of human beings was changing the last 25 years. That was very likely but I couldn't predict the future of course. The "whole net" was not there already and the number of human beings would change and develop step by step. Difficult to say how. That was not my cup of tea. I just wanted to become Bundeskanzler. The idea was there and I liked to have a "normal life" and I liked the option to become Bundeskanzler of Germany. This long text tries to explain why I think a "female love" is important to combine the 4 elements. Humanbeingness connects us all nowerdays here in the internet. Bw Peter Babnik Viva TV inventor and Optimist 🙂
Lush!
1.5 or 1.75 is the regular tempo