The majority of the big manga fandoms are extremely toxic, it just depends on where you are interacting with the fandoms. UA-cam is generally relaxed compared to Twitter, which is just a toxic mess most of the time
Just Twitter things. There's a reason why it is now owned by a despicable excuse for a human being. Because it's a cesspit that attracts that sort. A world without Twitter is a better world.
Dude, that's a twitter problem, not a big manga fandom problem. Every topic that ever existed was and is toxic on twitter. And every fandom big enough will have some black sheep 🤷♀️
@@sleepyseraNah some fandoms are just that toxic MHA, AOT, Naruto, FMAB, and One Piece are pretty toxic just depends where ur at Twitter and Tiktok also IMDB but MHA is in a class of its own tbh
I used to be so engrained in fandoms and the number one thing that I realized it did was make the stories that I love less enjoyable. Like maybe I loved an episode of TV, but then I would go online and see everyone else in the fandom say things like "this show has lost itself, nothing about this is good. This character sucks, blah blah blah." and then my mind would subconsciously start to see that episode that way. So now, I just try to enjoy something by myself, and maybe once I have completed a series, then I will look up content about it.
Years ago I liked watching Earth Final Conflict, yet when someone made a comment about how fake x and y looked I couldn't not see those flaws, destroying my enjoyment of the show.
I understand what you're saying. I don't want to deal with mean or dangerous people when I'm having a discussion. However, I don't want discussions to be echo chambers either. There are many rude individuals out there, and I would not recommend engaging with them. You should also report anyone making death threats. We need to be careful that we are not associating those with critical opinions with these rude/dangerous individuals though. The phrase "toxic fandom" is just too easy to use against people with valid criticisms. It allows us to disregard those valid criticisms without reflecting on them.
oh this is a mood. Then its kinda like why are they watching the show lol, that is what I wonder to myself. Sometimes I read webtoons really far and that one really negative person continues to be negative in the comment section and I am just like bro why are you still here xD? Usually I'm stubborn with my feelings and opinions so while it doesn't sway me usually I feel really drained by the lack of analysis and constructive immersion then I enjoy it far less. It makes you feel alone.
@@timmeyer9191I think you missed the point a little, it’s more that engaging in a fandom before or during consuming the media can make you see flaws that you wouldn’t have normally seen, ruining the piece. For me, I never watched GoT, though obviously I couldn’t avoid the discussions, so when I eventually tried watching it, I just couldn’t get through it knowing that the end sucked and stopped at season 2. The opposite of this is the Witcher, I watched the show before engaging in any discussions or other material and loved it. It was only after, when I played the game and read the books did I realize all the flaws in the show.
@@evilemuempire9550 I think I would rather have honest reviews. Time is a precious commodity, and I (and many others) cannot give every book, tv show, or film a chance. We just don't have the time, so we need to filter it somehow. Honest reviews from people that have seen/read it are a good way to accomplish this filtering. Much better than established entertainment media which are more akin to PR firms. Flaws in the entertainment does not mean one cannot still enjoy the entertainment. I hear the negative and positive reviews, but it is up to me if I enjoy it or not. I can admit scenes in GoT were too dark and the storytelling became rushed, but I still watched it and could still see good qualities in it overall. You don't have to like everything about the entertainment to enjoy it. On the flipside, I gave Netflix's live action version of Cowboy Bebop a chance, but I had to stop midway. To me, it was very poorly written and I should have stopped earlier than I did. Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep has some homophobic remarks, but it is still a masterpiece of poetic slang & a great mystery too. Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None is my favorite book as it pretty much invented the modern thriller, but it was originally published with a racially insensitive title. If we need to believe our entertainment is perfect in order to enjoy it, we may need to rethink our standards. If we consume entertainment we don't like because we believed the positive hype/promotion, are we sheep?
I would argue that it proves details matter way more than context. I don't need to know the conversation you are I having. I need to know the details of what you mean. Terrible character is just kind of meaningless. Is his moral character terrible? Is he presented without depth? or is the archetype he represents repulsive to you?
@@robertblume2951 Those would be better ones to phrase that and get more attention from ppl who disagree. That creates a lot of space for a good and interesting conversation
@@robertblume2951 I think the reason why the commenter labeled this under context with Merphy quoting it is because, in the video, Merphy likes Iroh and is doing an impression of what a theoretical iroh hater would say. With this quote singled out, it would make someone think that Merphy holds an opinion that she does not actually have.
Honestly the best way that I’ve found non toxic communities is to just go straight to the meme communities. I just recently watched breaking bad and Neon Genesis Evangelion, and loved both, so I went on Reddit but the main subreddits seemed to be a lot more aggressive and sensitive when it came to people misunderstanding things about them, but the more meme specific communities were a lot more open to questions and things that I didn’t understand about the shows. Maybe it’s because the meme specific format kinda discourages taking things like that too seriously.
That's actually really valid. Humor brings people together, and it can make new fans feel welcome in a space that's been there for years or even decades. It also makes it easy to write off "bad" interactions or "wrong" opinions by just saying "yeah, whatever, it's just a meme. No need to take it so seriously." While yes, some content is very personal to some people, we should all remember that it's just a game. Just a story, or just a movie. It's okay to have different opinions, and a fun format can help reinforce that.
That's what I did with One Piece as well.Main subreddit is too preachy sometimed,other subreddits are toooo toxic.Only the meme one was balanced enough for me to join.And as if they have soo much time on their hands,they discredit and show discontent towards other subreddits.It's just become a cesspool of constant toxicity being spewed by fans of the same series on one another
I think gatekeeping might be among the most frustrating toxic fandom traits to me. When I get into a fandom, I want to both talk about it with other fans AND bring more people in. I've had a few times when I've tried to get friends interested into various things I'm passionate about, and they've been unwilling, because they took one step and were immediately attacked for not already knowing decades-worth of lore, and, like, that sucks.
There's a huge difference, though, between, "Hey, please get interested in this thing I like because you'll like it, too," and "Hey, please get interested in this thing and join this fandom to interact with other people in it because I swear, we're not all crazy." There are fandoms I'm into where I would absolutely tell someone, "Yes, watch this thing, but holy hell, stay away from the fandom by any means necessary."
People are vicious when it comes to their fandoms. This is why I enjoy your channel so much. You are honest and have even not enjoyed some of my faves, but I love the way you handle and discuss these things.
I have gotten really into reading serialized novels and stories on Royal Road. Unfortunately, I have noticed a horrible pattern with many of those stories. 1) Author puts out story. Story is good. Story takes off. 2) Author starts Patreon to make a little money for their efforts. 3) Author keeps making great stories. 4) Author finally makes enough from fan subscriptions they decide to "Go Pro". 5) Big spending fans start making "suggestions" for how they think the story should go. 6) Author starts adding little bits of fan service to the story. Quality goes down. 7) Author makes a change to the story that violates the headcanon of some big spenders. Usually involving ships or politics. 8) Toxic Big Spending fans go ballistic. 9) Toxic Fans Unsubscribe from Patreon. 10) Author changes story to pander to the angry toxic fans, because bills gotta get paid. This gets REALLY extreme when relationships are involved. One author actually refused to have his main character get in ANY relationships just to avoid getting brigaded by the toxic pukes that tended to invade.
Honestly that last author is my guy. I am honestly annoyed with how many harem stories are out there so more Solo heroes is great as far as I am concerned. As to the rest I only see the end result of that stuff when it hits kindle unlimited so it doesn't bother me to much.
@@robertblume2951 Right? I am getting so tired of reading stories that start out great, and then suddenly take a sharp left turn into fanservice land. *Results driven MC gets stuff done, growing and maturing for 100-300 chapters* Suddenly, a wild multispecies poly harem appears! Half the chapters are become about the social dynamic of the harem, with excessive focus on the hijinks of the ditzy large chested/well endowed catboy/girl. Reader: wtf just happened? I mean, sure. Throw a relationship or two in the mix if you want. Whatever. AS LONG AS IT HELPS THE CHARACTER GROW. In HWFWM, the MC has one or two relationships, but the focus is on the MC, and those relationships contribute to growth. Same with Defiance of the Fall. Randidly Ghosthound after the rewrite also purged a lot of the confusing relationship stuff. I liked BtDEM until the great reset, where it became some kind of strange politics infused Harry Potter-esque school dating anime, and the protagonist de-matured by 15 years. And if you don't like it in any way, the core fanbase calls you an -istPhobe In another story I was reading, it had a good plot with decent stakes and system, and then BAM! the focus shifted to the MC getting romantic with a 4-eyed talking cat. Just confusing.
@@pjpleiss Dude. I totally got your back. Not familiar with those acronyms you threw out but totally familiar with those scenarios you laid out. I still read a few authors with series like that but put them down once they lose the story focus.
@@robertblume2951 Just for a decent story recommendation, HWFWM is "He Who Fights With Monsters". Good progression fantasy story with a main character that doesn't get tied down in relationship drama unless it is specifically for the character's growth. He also gets powerful while still being constantly challenged. He's also pretty self aware when he starts acting like an emo edgelord and everyone mocks him for it. The story isn't done yet, but I wouldn't be shocked if the protagonist basically becomes some kind of divine being at the end.
@@pjpleiss Got a friend named the Fuzzy Jew who loves that one. Got a recommendation from a coworker too. It's decent but I got annoyed with the main character and nope out when it seemed the silver haired girl was gonna be a love interest. Didn't really like her either. I am kind waiting for a different series by shirtaloon. I liked the story and writing so I am hoping he comes out with another one soon so I can give him a second shot.
As someone who has been interested in manga/anime, kpop, and books and tv series with large fanbases for many years, I had to get away from online fandoms since there was too much negativity and toxic positivity. Especially in kpop-yeesh. Now I just enjoy things myself or with irl friends who may like the same things. And of course follow content creators like you who are fun and create interesting discussions.
I left a fandom once because of a discussion over wether an asset that was left out of the game counted as canon (I don’t think it does cause it’s not in the final game, but we were discussing it). The conversation turned into them telling me my opinion is invalid because I wasn’t abused as a child (the left out asset implied the abuse of a character). I’m sorry, you mean to say I’m not entitled to an opinion because I lack real life trauma? I took my happy childhood and ran away from that fandom! (Thinking back, that person probably just wanted to see themselves in a character, but there was no reason to be so rude about it)
This is the issue I have with calling fandoms toxic, most times people label a fandom as toxic, it's because of one interaction like this. That whole fandom isn't toxic, that guy who argued with you is just an asshole.
@@spencercorpuz oh it wasn't just the one person, it was everyone in that chat. Though I understand what you mean, but sometimes it only takes one bad experience for someone to feel unwelcome (though you're right, that entire fandom wasn't toxic, I just didn't care to hang around there anymore)
Here’s a good tip. Generally the toxicity is on a sliding scale based on age groups. I have found fandoms of 35 yo+ WAAAAY more wholesome and enjoyable than the younger groups. Politics doesn’t really play a factor but cultural values do as well. If they are 35+ and non-western I tend to have a good time. That means non-English speakers. I’m glad I found my wheelhouse of wholesomeness and stayed there.
That’s my experience with the 2016 ghostbusters. Lol I got the extended version where they curse in it… and still will never regret it. Love the 💩 outta that movie. Lol
You know...I clicked on this video expecting specific fandoms to be called out (and looking forward to it), but I'm really glad it wasn't. This was such a lovely video and I like this attitude.
my first experience of toxic fandom weas the early 2010s naruto shipping wars on tumblr. i had to remove myself from fandom for the sake of my own sanity as a 15 year old who literally did not give a shit about who should end up with who.
I had this experience with ATLA recently. My brothers started watching the show for the first time, and it remi ded me how much I love it. So I got on to soci media to look around the fandoms and my goodness. I couldn't go one post without seeing some crazy drama or ship wars. Like, Kataang shippers and Zutara shippers have just been going AT it. It's so frustrating. I just want my fan content, is that too much to ask??
Sorry you had this experience. My interpretation has always been that the fans are just having fun (my personal favourite ship is zukka), especially since zutara fans usually acknowledge that yes kataang is cannon, so they just do their own headcannons and enjoy their own takes
The best fight is if ATLA is better than LoK. I'm old enough to know that it's a matter of personal taste so I never engage. I know what I love and I don't need to fight someone about it. But bring up that topic and it will go round in circles
My favorite fandom is the ASOIAF fans. Not because they are not toxic they are but because after 12 years of no content for the mainline series books, they have gone insane with theory crafting. I love the books but chefs kiss Tyrion is a time traveling fetus is such amazingly dumb creativity.
My conspiracy theory is that GRRM loves disrupting classic fantasy tropes. What is a bigger trope than that the author will finish it? He is doing this ON PURPOSE!
When we LOVE something, we move through two extremes. At first we love everything about it but over the years we keep thinking and we find flaws and things we wish the creators would make with our favorite characters. And when they don't deliver what we want or expect, love turns into hate. Because those are two ways to feel attached to something. We need to be careful with the way we feel about stuff. Being critical is great, really, but we have to look ourselves to notice when we become toxic fans. It's not so easy to realize.
After years witnessing, being subjected and yes, also being somewhat toxic during my younger days, as a rule I avoid interacting with fandom outside my circle of close friends. Perhaps the worst thing I been subjected to (because I really don't care about them so I get dragged into it because of my indifference) are ships wars or people being so obnoxious about their ships with the early 2000's being the worst time for me.
Shipping is, at least in my opinion, genuinely the dumbest thing in fandom, and they get so heated about their headcannon. I genuinely don't understand shipping to begin with, so their investment in it is an act of mental gymnastics I don't think I'll ever be able to perform
@@warwicknaude5563 I have no issues with people shipping or shipping itself. Is just annoying how people take it too far and even attack others because either they do not care/ship the same characters or have a different ship.
@@CCZor I'm with you on not having a problem with it, at least for the most part. I don't understand it and think it's kinda stupid, but as long as they're not being toxic about it I don't care. Problem is, as you said, people take it to far.
@@warwicknaude5563 to stop this we need to start in our education, ppl have been taught they are meant to find someone with them and sexual “true love” is one of the most important aspect in a person’s life and success. Ppl are literally being praised if they “die for love”. We also see this shipwar phenomenon in girls more because some old fuck just can’t stop putting this “love is all you need” mindset into female toddlers via brainwashing them with princess love stories
personally the way i've found positive spaces for me is by finding people and communities that fit my vibe that aren't tailored to specific fandoms. spaces where people don't share fandoms but feel free to introduce each other to things
PREEEEEACH Merphy lol It's just about being polite and finding something about the series you do agree on. i find a lot of disargeements and toxicity isn't even really about the thing but really about in-group dynamics, ego and projection.
A good video, I've begun to get paranoid when I see the word "toxic" from creators I like. It's gotten to be one of those words that people like to throw around a anyone who disagrees with them no matter how respectful or disrespectful they are about it but this was a well made video and you actually went into the fact that toxic positivity exists. A lot of people seem to want to avoid talking about it at all. Like it's as simple as "oh but see they're being positive about the series and that makes them the 'good' ones". It's nice to see it actually being addressed.
Thank you for making a more nuanced video than is typically released on this subject. My simple suggestion to drastically reduce the toxicity in modern fanbases is to stop inserting modern day issues into past works. It is divisive and counter productive.
You always have to consider the source if somebody I know is derogatory it might bother me but if it is just a random person I'm a lot more likely to let it roll off my back.
This is why I love brandon sanderson and his Fandom, especially especially especially 17th shard. Their whole crew are amazing, and try so hard to keep it not toxic in either way, they're good about it.
Merphy, I've found the 1% theory to be very true. I've found great people at every online community I've been a part of, and there are always a few stinkers. I think the main thing that's been a problem for me is that rare person who puts the most negative interpretation on my words and motivations possible. I try to check that in myself and assume the best in other people. It's sometimes hard though, not gonna lie. But we only see a small fraction of what a person is reflected in the little comment they post, and it's good to try to remember that.
There's no such thing as "toxic fandoms". Only toxicity in any/all online discourse. Nerdrage is part of being a passionate fan. And people who can't handle disagreement over fandom are not fans, but fanboys/fangirls. I learned a lot about the difference between fans and fanboys thru my own experience of being both. The great thing about the internet, is that it does provide a space to vent, and to risk being toxic as you give unfiltered opinions on things you love and hate. It can devolve into pure bashing and unproductive antagonism... but you just have to walk away, mute, etc. when it does. If you just want to geek out without people trying to poop on your party, then in-person book clubs, conventions, or private online groups should be your outlet... not comment sections, forums, or other public online spaces. That's the place for fans to divide into teams and battle... like sports fans... which are a much more primeval type of fandom. Soccer fans riot over soccer. Surely, nerds getting salty online is supremely benign, and silly if you compare it to that.
Oh fandoms can be such special places but they can also be an on fire garbage can. I haven't tried many book fandoms post-Potter but I'd hope they're more the former
I’ve been a huge Transformers fan for decades, and I largely disconnected from the online fandom around the time the first live-action movie came out. I completely agreed with most of the criticisms, and to this day those movies remain my most hated iteration of the franchise (which is saying a lot when versions like Energon and Kiss Players also exist). But the ways many people were voicing those complaints were absolutely vile, and then in response a number of sites overcorrected with toxic positivity and started banning any criticism whatsoever of the films regardless of how it was expressed. It got to a point where I didn’t feel comfortable on any of the sites I used to frequent. I definitely didn’t want to interact with the toxic haters, but couldn’t feel welcome on a site where I couldn’t express my many criticisms of the movie, and it felt like those had become the only two options so I just walked away
Recently became completely obsessed with One Piece and had to scrounge around to find friends who’d read it to dump my opinions on and talk about it with lol
@@cowboybarbaryn1302 I spent two months trying to get my friends to watch One Piece, then immediately started gushing about another anime they need to watch.😭
There are a couple of guidelines which I find helpful in navigating fandoms. 1) Keep your fandoms separate from the real world. No arguing about politics and religion within the fandom and don't project your real world values on fictional works. Judge characters according to the standards of the world the author has established. Also good people can enjoy messed up fantasy worlds just like messed up people can enjoy idyllic settings. 2) Know the demographics of your fandom. For example if it skews younger, know that there'll be more toxic and troll posts. Leave the arguing with 12 to 16 year olds to their peers. A lot of it is them just testing their limits and getting angry over it just gets a rise out of them. In the first place never has anything good come from any online debate with more than three replies and counterreplies. Ignore it, let them feel victorious and they will grow out of it eventually. Most of us did. 3) Stay away from groups with a mission other than having fun. Whenever a subset of a fandom turns into a love or hate fest for a project it's time to avoid that subset. It can be fun in the beginning, but after a short while those echo chambers get increasingly toxic and soon everyone who doesn't share the dominant opinion will leave or get banned. 4) I forgot the most important rule: Twitter is a cesspool. Avoid it, whenever possible.
@@natalimoinaYou are free to think so. I for one am part of a number of fandoms where a large part of the people have vastly different political beliefs than I do and I've seen how polarized things have become. Keeping politics and religion apart from the rest of the fandom, avoids a large part of that polarization. There's a mob mentality on Twitter- I guess X now, which isn't nearly as bad on youtube imo
Probably this is a me thing, but I find it difficult to talk about books/series/etc. online. Say, on various discord servers, I sometimes feel like an outsider intruding on a conversation between friends. Not because they are mean or unwelcoming. Actually everybody is mostly nice. It's just that people there have history and they know each other, while I am completely new, and I have no idea how to be a part of those conversations. Sometimes I do get into a genuine conversation on Reddit, but I rarely encounter those people again. The majority of my experience on Reddit goes like this "here's a thing you should check out - Thanks, I will,. Could you tell me more?" and that's it, so there's not much to build from here. I want to emphasize that I'm not blaming anyone, it's just the way I am. Which is kinda strange because I'm not shy and rather open in everyday life But as the result, I'm yet to find a fandom to be a part of and I mostly watch videos on UA-cam.
You are so not alone there. I feel 'behind' joining any kind of established community. That feeling is unpleasant and causes me anxiety because I feel like an, as you said, outsider/intruder. I'm that way in real life, too. Being introduced into an established friend group is tense and unpleasant and I have to REALLY want to be there to put forth the effort to overcome it. I want to make online friends, but it is really a struggle for me.
@@drinkbooks in real life what helps me is knowing one or two people in the group before meeting them all, but coming to an already established group barely knowing anyone there never worked out for me too. If you ever figure this out I'd love to hear how 😅
Omg! It's nice to find someone that understands! You are not alone! It's not just an "yours thing"... I feel exactly like that too. I usually end up just watching videos on youtube, looking for fan contents just as comics and fanfics, reading comments and seeking different opinions online... And talk a LOT to myself about these fictions I love. It feels strange to talk with online people, it's just like you said, I feel like an intruder somehow. The only people that I can blurt out are myself and the very few friends that are also fans of the fictions I love. And even then, it's once or twice. But... I think that being a part of a fandon doesn't means interacting with other fans, but spending more time with the content you love. Searching videos, fan contents... It also counts! I say that because I entered the Undertale fandon, and for the first time, I think I feel like a truly part of the community. Not that I interact much, but it's so enjoyable seeing the love in people's works, the same as the one I have... They are so creative. There are characters that aren't canon, that don't appear in the game itself, but everybody know and take as real. Alternate universes, that everyone (or most of them) believe to exist in this same fictional world, but anyone who had just finished the game and moved on wouldn't even hear about those. And... Knowing this, that there are new things yet to explore, more theories yet to blow my mind... This is what made me continue in this fandon, even one year after finishing the game. This is what makes my experience with undertale much more precious. And makes me feel welcomed, since last year. Even still feeling like an intruder in discord servers. Anyway... I hope you can, someday, feel like a part of some fandon. 🍀 Ps: sorry for any grammar mistake, I'm from Brazil, so english is not my native language...
as someone who doesn’t have this problem, it’s about how you look and engage, which is often based on the type of person you are. You have to be able to just filter out like 90% of shit out there
The most toxic thing in any fandom are the people who decide their head canon is ACTUAL canon. It happens a lot with the shipping community to the point that they actually harass the creators if they go a different way as the series goes on. Those people actively make enjoying art a chore.
Sadly that’s how the majority of medias make money nowadays, it works very similarly to hosts/prostitutes tricking their customers into thinking they are the one special via giving out small hints but never making any actual commitments (so their customers will spend more
With all due respect the headcanon ppl are definitely not the most toxic part of fandoms (maybe the power ranking ppl), at least not the shipping community. Most ppl are not acting as if their ships are canon, bc they obviously know they aren't. And just bc ppl write fanfic, draw fanart and talk about how some characters could be read as queer. None of that is toxic and even if some ppl don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not valid or meritful. A lot of ppl consume the story like the canon intents and then again with their indulgence glasses on. There are toxic sub groups but that goes for every fandom and every sub community. The rep the shipping community gets is pretty unjustified and def not fair/negatively biased from what I've seen about all these dudes on YT making their whole video essays about stuff like that. Which is interesting that they somehow have problems with their fav getting shipped with each other but hentai subreddits (that are actually bad), not a word towards this. Lets be honest it comes mostly due to bigotry and outsiders just tunnel vision filtering through to the toxic ppl (ignoring all the massive amount of quality content and then also acting as if things that are at worst cringey and second hand embarassing are already problematic and braindeeaad and just generalizing a whole community. It's really annoying. The only communities where ppl would actually go to a creator about ships would be in shows were romance actually is canon and an issue. Which is an issue itself if we talk about shonen, bc shonen mangaka can't write romance for the most part. Which also hangs with the fact that they can't write female characters and good dynamics between dudes and dudines. And i think considering and regarding shonen, lets be honest the canon couples are more bad than good in a lot of cases. A lot criticize which is valid if a couple is canon, it becomes more than valid to discuss the sense of the couple. Of course there are ppl that get toxic thats true, and those are just unneccessary! Harassing creators is just not it. But apart from ATLA I don't think creators would be involved or having to face the wrath of the fandom. xD And I love aang and katara but they just can't act as if they didn't create these vibes between zuko and katara (who had just more chemistry imo). Their own fault to write a character with a one sided crush that is used as a running gag.
I'm into a lot of TTRPGS (tabletop rpgs like dnd and other similar games) and maaaaan I think that is probably the most toxic fandom I have ever experienced.
Sometimes I join groups dedicated to specific characters or ships, especially if they're the ones that get hated on a lot by the general fandom, and try to engage with my fellow fans. From time to time, I see that even among said fans, they can get toxic either 1) They hate a character/ship that's most loved by the fandom with the same energy that fandom hates the character/ship the group is dedicated to; basically being no better than the haters 2) They sometimes get so engrossed with the fanfic, or fanart of the characters or ships people create or sometimes fan edits of screenshots, that they lose sight of what's actually canon and what isn't. At first, I used to correct them or try to tame their passion a bit, but soon after I gave up because it's mentally exhausting. I definitely avoid the big public spaces for certain fandoms because of how toxic it can be and a lot of the times, they don't respect differing opinions.
When I mention what my favourite book is and has been for nearly 40 years people always have a go at me because how can I read that book when I was that young and people also don’t like it because it is a 1400 page book 📖 love you and your amazing channel ❤❤❤
I know a person that hates Iroh and is for a very stupid reason. She told me that she hates Iroh because he only cares for Zuko but never showed interest on helping Azula.
Thanks for the video Merphy! This was a fantastic discussion for sure! One of the best ways to find non-toxic spaces I've had was randomly finding Daniel's videos, and through him, finding yours as well! You two are really great, and though I'm obviously not having a discussion with y'all, it's still a really fulfilling way to debrief media, as well as learn about new things.
I have more experience with corporations labeling fans as toxic for disagreeing with their changes in the adaptations. I thought it was interesting you mentioned toxic positivity, that has definitely become more of a problem I think
As an author, one of the things I want to try to do is cultivate a very positive fandom space. I work really hard to make sure my Discord is a welcoming and honest place.
Good for you. I hope you can achieve that. However, there are some that believe positivity means the absence of criticism. Criticism is not a bad thing, but the way it is delivered can be. Two people can make the same criticism, but one can be more rude about it. It becomes easy to equate the criticism with the rudeness and disregard the criticism itself. But in no way do I excuse rudeness or encourage people to engage with rude individuals.
I believe I generally agree with you. Fandoms aren't toxic, that's far to broad of a blanket statement for me to accept. If a toxic person shows up to the conversation you can block, mute or just ignore them. If a group turns toxic, leave the group. Any further problems caused by sticking around is entirely your fault. I also think that too many people take a legitimate criticism of their beloved stories/characters as a personal insult, because they've wrapped too much of their identity to said story/characters, which I find to be far more toxic to discourse. I'm also glad you brought up toxic positivity, because that just outright kills any interesting or nuanced discussion you might have through an initial disagreement.
This feels similar to people fighting about politics (or any other very personal ideas) on social media - virtual spaces allow users to bring their worst selves to the "conversation," with little to no consequences. There is a tendency to forget that there are real human beings with real feelings and real lives on the other side of the screen. I've never participated in any online forums, but I did join an in-person book discussion for a specific book I was reading a while back, and it was one of the most pleasant, respectful communities I've ever been experienced. While online forums are sometimes the only option for certain fandoms, I think first seeking face-to-face interactions wherever possible is probably going to deliver healthier, kinder community... and I'm saying that as a mega introvert, haha.
The only difference is Politics often affects our lives in a very real way while Art does and can have an affect, it does not make policy and rules. But i agree we should be able to discuss stuff without being mean and rude to each other. And I understand peoples distate of politics in genneral added with someone being a dismissive asshole would absolutely turn a person especially an introvert off of it completly. As an aside I had to laugh at this guy who went after my brother because of a picture, and said oh you must live in your Moms basement. My brother handled it incredibly well I wanted to flame the guy. But the take away is judging a person online by a picture is an odd own lol
I’ve been in a few toxic fandoms. It’s amazing how the stress of those environments can spoil your enjoyment of something. As much as I love seeing other people creating art for things that I like, the older I get the more I feel like joining fandoms isn’t worth it. Sorry for the downer comment. Happy new year!
Oh dear, that's so true. There are some people in real life I never watch movies with because they will spoil the surprises beforehand, and then there are people I won't watch movies with because they'll spoil the experience afterwards. That goes double when there are multiple such people forming a community. Triple if it's online.
@@pRahvi0 Oh yeah. The internet brings out the worst in people. At least in-person communities have SOME social pressure to not be complete monsters, even if they're still mean.
I used to be keyed into forums/reddit/youtube discourse on stuff, but the negatives _far_ exceeded the positives. I'm glad I'm blind to online fandom these days. For example, one of the reasons I dropped Doctor Who back in 2012 was because of the fandom, which had deeply entrenched sides on which Doctor/showrunner/companion was superior to the others. But I started watching it again last year with my friend, and honestly talking to her and my sisters about it in real life is a much more rewarding experience, even when we're being negative. It's gotten to the point where even if I don't have anyone in real life that also reads/watches the same thing, I still won't join online discourse about it. It's really not worth it.
I used to never read anything but manga, but I think I kinda grew out of it since I read most of the good ones. However! For the past 2 years I have read about 50 fiction and your videos helped me a lot in shaping some of my opinions and I think that's great! In a way, your followers are kind of like a fandom in itself and a positive one too. I like it I think it's awesome so yeah thanks for that Merphy! :)
I don't know why other people's judgement matters that much. While I appreciate connecting to likeminded people, those that are toxic shrink in my eyes and their opinions with them.
It seems like TV show or movie adaptions can bring out the worst in fandoms (especially recently). And I have noticed that it is lessened the closer the author is to the production (being more faithful to their vision).
Because that generally means the show is good lol. Take RoP or the downward slide Star Wars is going. The Witcher as well. And worst of all. The last season of GoT
Honestly imo some of the least toxic fandoms I've been a part of have been ones that most aggressively gatekeep. Yeah if you're on the outside and refuse to learn the way of things you're going to be turned away and have a bad time, but if you're willing to clear the proper hurdles I honestly think gatekept fandoms are some of the most rewarding to be a part of, and fulfilling some more elevated requirements for entry into the fandom really has led to a more rewarding time as part of a member of said fandom. Not really an aggressive positivity thing either, but more a "unless you're actually showing a willingness to fully educate yourself on the series, not dip your toe into some surface level adaptations, only then will your opinion really matter, be it praise or critique." I guess it's not for everyone, but again, I suppose that's also kind of the point.
I can understand how we all can be a little toxic when we are passionate about something. I am still working on not being so biased towards a character, especially one that I hate. Sometimes I hate a character so much, I cannot see other people’s argument. I feel where I get toxic the most is when people really under estimate abuse of a duo/couple and call it “their dynamic” especially if it is a female character. If a male character did half of the abusive behaviors that the female does to a male character, he would get cancelled. If a woman does them, it is “their dynamic” or empowering. I can’t stand that double standard. So while we are all complicit in this from time to time, we can learn from it and change our behaviors. However, I do hate the gatekeeping and some fandoms not even trying to be open minded to other people’s perspectives. Defend someone or not. Just explain why and at least meet in the middle. That is my goal. At least, meet in the middle.
I found my space through fanfiction. I used to write D.Gray-man fanfics and was invited to join a Facebook group chat with a bunch of other authors in the fandom. We all became thick as thieves for about a year, meeting up in person at conventions, supporting each other's writing, making each other laugh, talking about life, etc. We drifted apart after two or so years. Now I'm a bit of a recluse and every fandom I join, I do so quietly and unobtrusively. The one, always positive interaction I have with other fans is when I write reviews for people's stories. They out here writing amazing works and I just want to make their day with a glowing review because I know how it feels to get that positive feedback. I feel a mildly parasocial kinship with fanfiction authors actually. I'm hopelessly obsessed with BBC Merlin and my fellow authors are still out there writing after we just passed the 10 year anniversary of the release of the last episode. I love my fandom.
I don't really interact much with fandoms, as I personally don't care much what others think UNTIL it effects what gets created from that property. Toxic positivity becomes a breeding ground for the creation of new toxic "canon" entries by the current owners of properties, and that is something I find to be toxic to the property as a whole, ruining what I once loved about it. Currently, the fandoms that are labeled "toxic" are labeled that way, at least in my opinion, by toxicly positive people. There are very large problems with the current entries into old properties, where the new stewards of the past are ignoring or actively working against the existing lore, to make stories that do not fit the property or subvert the original author's intent for their own reasons. I think those properties NEED "toxic" fans to bring the current owners back to reality and possibly put the properties back into the hands of stewards who care about what made them worth the fandoms that they created in the first place. (Yes, I think Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr. Who, Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings, etc, are being ruined right now, and my opinions would be considered "toxic" by the toxicly positive people who don't even understand proper storytelling basics.)
I'm an author. I enjoy communing with fans of writing and writers as well as conversations with other writers. I avoid anything toxic but I look forward to critiques and hearing the views of readers and my fellow writers. Fans help me understand what I need to do better.
Shortly after Alan Rickman passed away I felt sad and emotional, Like I had lost a friend. I've been watching his movies my entire life. Die Hard (10 years old), Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (8th grade), and Sense and Sensibility (20-ish) act as a sort of time stamp in my life. Even to this day Colonel Brandon is my favorite Austen hero. I joined a fan page to discuss the grief since normal people didn't feel the loss quite so acutely. I lasted eight hours. I referred to him as Snape and the moderator banned me. When I messaged her about it she went bat balls crazy and ranted about how disrespectful reducing him to a single roll was. After that I decided to love and mourn him alone.
that's why I don't join fandoms, I just rant to my friends about the things I'm reading until they want to read it too I do observe fandoms and, most of the times, the things I see convince me to stay in my own little fandom I've created with my friends
For me fandoms can be toxic in two different ways - inwards and outwards. And both of them suck. The first type is when people don't accept someone doesn't like their favourite book or series and are like "no, you have to try it again, you didn't get to the good part" or can't accept someone prefers other books. That's the problem many big and popular fandoms have, like Harry Potter of LotR. Sometimes when you tell a person you aren't into a critically acclaimed book they just can't understand it. And when fandom is toxic inwards, it's more about ship wars or character wars. That's what I hate about many anime/manga fandoms I'm a part of like Attack on Titan. People are constantly arguing about which character was right calling the other clowns or traitors. Or other fandoms arguing about whih character is the strongest or whether the adatation sucks. One of the things I hate the most is when a book/anime/any other piece of media becomes popular and some of the old fans are acting as if they were better than the new fans because "they liked something before it was popular". That's the thing with Chainsaw Man. Attack on Titan and many others. Acting as if someone wasn't a real fan because they have only watched something a month ago and you are in this fandom for seven years is awful because it makes new fans feel like they have to earn being in a fandom. The best fandom I've ever been into - but i think it isn't as present in the US - is the Gothic game fandom. But even there I've encountered some toxic people. What is sad about fandoms is that they really can ruin a series to me. I used to love Attack on Titan with my whole heart - and I still like it very much, it's one of my favourite anime - but I'm not engaging in discussions anymore because people tend to start arguing over characters or their decisions instead of discussing them. I like talking with someone who disagrees with my opinion but I hate it when it turns into calling each other idiots. Sometimes I feel embarassed for the fandom, like FMAB fandom not allowing any other anime to be called the best or HxH fans who can't accept someone doesn't like it.
I always tend to become a hermit, always an outsider. Groups of people are really not my thing even when I try to engage and integrate. I think this is a defect and I don't feel better about not belonging anywhere by the way. People identifying themselves by the groups "they belong to" have always been extremely weird to me. As if people couldn't be vastly different despite liking similar things sometimes, often for very different reasons. Fandoms, and mobs in general, can very often become cultlike in my eyes. There's always a time when you will inevitably have a very very unpopular opinion (which is fine, I don't need people to agree with me, nor do I seek their validation) and you will get attacked no matter how you approach it. Discussion is simply not allowed, cut short and you will get ostracized if you stand by your words, even if you're extremely respectful and accepting of other people's views. Groupthink, rudeness, condescending takes, always filter me eventually. The hermit way is lonely but incredibly liberating.
Great video! This conversation has been at the front of my mind lately because of some recent toxic fandom experiences that left me a bit over whelmed and questioning if just have really bad media interpretation skills (which I’m not ruling out 😅). It’s hard because I love hearing what other people think about the media that I love whether it’s positive or negative. But sometimes it’s hard to sort out legitimate criticism from the toxic stuff especially in larger fandoms with a lot of information and a lot of voices. All of those voices can make it difficult (for me at least) to figure out what you think.
I think sometimes it depends on certain people in fandoms. Fandom as a whole are simply passionate about their story and characters, and some fandoms are more vicious than others, but not THE ENTIRE fanbase is full of people like that. I hate Amazon's Wheel of Time adaptation because Robert Jordan's story favorite piece of fiction and i hate the changes the show made and i think those changes make the story so much worse, I joke with my friends calling the show Waste of Time because we dislike it, but I dont hate people who like the show. To a certain extent, I think gatekeeping is ok. I'm not talking about pushing out new people who are normal from joining in the fun and growing that fandom, I mean keeping it safe from people on Twitter who want to change everything. Think of it like this, some twitter person comes into a D&D game played by a group of fans, then this twitter person sees lots of stuff wrong with the game and wants to change everything to how THAT person thinks it should be, the fans are upset and liked the game how it was being played before and didn't like the changes being made, now the twitter person gets furious and calls them bigots and racists for simply not agreeing with how the game should be played, who wants someone like that joining? Sometimes gatekeeping can be frustrating and actually toxic, sometimes I think it's understandable. Keeping new people out who just want to enjoy the material like the rest of the fanbase is actually toxic, keeping people who want to actively hate the source material and want to complain about how racist and misogynistic it is, is ok. That's just my opinion. If we are talking about ships on the other hand yeah everyone is toxic lol.
Here for this! I was so excited after reading Name of the Wind in 2018/2019... I started to engage in online forums to discuss my theories and observations, only to be told in all the reply comments that my opinions were either "wrong" or already distilled by the community. Still excited for the third book, but wow what an angry and hostile community.
@Rum Ham Good choice, I wanted to keep reading the moment I finished the second book! The second book gets criticism but I loved it because it expands the world.
Had this happen with the tv series Buffy. (Long story short: Buffy series got me out of a very bad and extremely depressing place) I joined the Buffy reddit page and it was immediate downvotes for liking certain characters and ships and a lot hurtful comments combined that with the never ending spam of hate posts towards said favourite characters. It was a sad feeling, going to a big fandom page and finding an unmodded (in other words, the moderators there don't care) toxic page ruled by toxic individuals.
Just watched a few of your tropes vids, something i missed was time travel tropes, in my opinion this is even worse than reviving dead caracters, with time travel everything is off the table and reversable.
I’ve barely started the video, but I know I’ll really appreciate this video. I’m so scared to interact in online fandom spaces. Of course all the proship/antiship drama doesn’t help with my anxieties. But then I get so sad when I scroll through tiktok and see people meeting friends they’ve made online and just having a lot of fun
@@CarrotConsumer I mean, I see it elsewhere, discord, twitter, Instagram, that kinda stuff. It’s just one of those kinda bummer things where I’m like “damn, I want nerdy friends that I’m close to like that too” ya know? 😅 about had a panic attack though, I was at HolMat in Orlando a couple weeks ago and I saw some of the people I follow on tiktok but I was too scared to say anything 🤣
I know exactly what you mean! You see these people brought together by shared love of a piece of media and would love to have that, but then you see all the stories about people cast out for having a “wrong” opinio
I had a bad experience surrounding Rings of Power, youtubers and their comments section, and Tolkien fandom in general. I tried to like the show but couldn't get into it and thought it had a lot of problems. When I went online to discover what other people thought, People were so incredibly negative, scornful, derisive and toxic, and it went on for weeks and weeks. And then another side was accusing anyone who disliked the show of being misogynist, racist or a fascist. Which they often were, to be fair. I felt really caught in the middle. I even was accused of being a fascist at one point. I'm Jewish, so figure that out I guess...
So true about any Tolkien related fandom. I remember back in the day when the LOTR movies were coming out and the fandom was fighting over fanfiction. Also when the hobbit movies were coming out, there was so much conflict on Tumblr and people being passive aggressive.
Also, another major problem with fandoms is that some people make being a fan of X their entire identity, so if they hear an opinion they don’t like or run into someone who’s not as passionate about it as them, they feel their identity isn’t validated, so they go bonkers.
First, thank you for using the correct 'their.' Second, yep, you nailed it. There's also the people who consider themselves experts in whatever fandom, and it's, "Because I've amassed so much knowledge about X, I can look down on you and call your opinions wrong/stupid, and be completely condescending to you."
Poor boy. Keep being toxic about them deadlines and good luck. I walked away years ago because I went through this with Jordan and Melanie Rawn already.
Every fandom has potential for toxicity. As long as people are involved in the fandom, the potential for toxicity will exist. There's almost always one, or a few, who don't know how to express an opinion without being insulting or condescending towards those who disagree with them.
The worst people I have come across in several fandoms have been the ones who try and win arguments through moral purity. That is, state that a canon, or an aspect of canon, is morally corrupt in some way, and accusing anyone who disagrees (or even just anyone who likes it) of approving of the message they have stated that the canon has. The toxic version of begging the question, you could say. It has the power of completely devastating a fandom space. It has happened in every fandom I've been in or seen from the outside since around 2009-2010. I think it's interesting how the value of things like moderated spaces is becoming acknowledged now that fandom is fragmenting again (through places like discord, for example). Being able to keep a certain vibe in a space is something that can make or break a fandom experience, and I'm actually really happy that things seem to generally move in that direction. Imitating social media was the worst thing that ever happened to fandom. And you know, as someone who's been in fandom since the late nineties it's really funny to see chatrooms come around again! What's next, is mailing lists going to make a reappearance? Personal sites and webrings? Though personally I think the height of fandom was probably the journalling era, because for some reason those were the only sites who implemented real threaded conversations. I've never seen so much actual discussion between several people at once where it was always perfectly clear who said what to whom, and you could read it all in the same place. And the conversaions could go on for days! The only downside to discord is the real time aspect.
I have been around with some big fandoms, anime and kpop mostly and with both of them I had a massive burn out that wasn’t entirely due to the material itself, but from the exhaustion that came with the fandoms. In person, most of the time fandoms are great, there’s not usually as many issues. Online, (this varies but still) it is just an overload of issues, there’s not a single fandom I’ve been in where it didn’t have completely unnecessary controversy. I just enjoy what I enjoy on my own for the most part now.
Watching UA-cam videos & occasionally checking comments is only only interactions with fandoms so I don’t know what fandoms are like beyond 2nd hand impressions
It's hard to find "Good spaces." You're going to have those toxic people, especially with large series eg Cosmere, or well known series, eg Wheel of Time. I learn to ignore those things, and try and pick out certain people that DONT come off as toxic. Having people lay out why they like certain sections instead of stating "Youre wrong because" is a much healthier way to handle things, and though it's rare, it does exist, it just happens that you have to sift through some crap online now to prove it. Big thing? Large fan pages on social media? Good place to find some friends who enjoy the same thing you do, bad place to stick around and try and interact.
@merphynapier Iroh is not only a terrible character but perhaps the worst irredeemable character in animation because the undulating undulater undulated the undulate I love Iroh he’s one of the best characters of all time along with Corazon and WhiteBeard
I've noticed that a lot of fandoms I like, but others don't is because they saw one or two people hating on it so they go in very biased about it. I've gotten a lot of book recommendations from your channel and several other Booktube channels and even other social media platforms. I then try to avoid spoilers and other opinions especially if I am new to the series because I don't want to learn later that I could have found my new favorite book if I didn't listen to "influencers" about it before hand and discovered my own opinion later. All my own opinions though! Everyone read what you want to read 😀
I think the worst fandom stuff is people condemning anyone who enjoys an evil character. Or that liking a series with corrupt content means they’re disgusting people irl.
Yeah, dont drop your guard. My friend is an anime only watcher and just one wrong search and he got spoiled about something really major that even you have yet to reach. Some really big world changing things have been revealed to us in recent chapters, specially as we are so close to the end. So what I mean is, dont ease up and catch up quick :D
The majority of the big manga fandoms are extremely toxic, it just depends on where you are interacting with the fandoms. UA-cam is generally relaxed compared to Twitter, which is just a toxic mess most of the time
Twitter is a very toxic space.
Just Twitter things.
There's a reason why it is now owned by a despicable excuse for a human being. Because it's a cesspit that attracts that sort. A world without Twitter is a better world.
Kind of a silly take. You honestly think over 50% of all manga fandoms are extremely toxic people? No.
Dude, that's a twitter problem, not a big manga fandom problem. Every topic that ever existed was and is toxic on twitter. And every fandom big enough will have some black sheep 🤷♀️
@@sleepyseraNah some fandoms are just that toxic MHA, AOT, Naruto, FMAB, and One Piece are pretty toxic just depends where ur at Twitter and Tiktok also IMDB but MHA is in a class of its own tbh
I used to be so engrained in fandoms and the number one thing that I realized it did was make the stories that I love less enjoyable. Like maybe I loved an episode of TV, but then I would go online and see everyone else in the fandom say things like "this show has lost itself, nothing about this is good. This character sucks, blah blah blah." and then my mind would subconsciously start to see that episode that way. So now, I just try to enjoy something by myself, and maybe once I have completed a series, then I will look up content about it.
Years ago I liked watching Earth Final Conflict, yet when someone made a comment about how fake x and y looked I couldn't not see those flaws, destroying my enjoyment of the show.
I understand what you're saying. I don't want to deal with mean or dangerous people when I'm having a discussion. However, I don't want discussions to be echo chambers either.
There are many rude individuals out there, and I would not recommend engaging with them. You should also report anyone making death threats. We need to be careful that we are not associating those with critical opinions with these rude/dangerous individuals though. The phrase "toxic fandom" is just too easy to use against people with valid criticisms. It allows us to disregard those valid criticisms without reflecting on them.
oh this is a mood. Then its kinda like why are they watching the show lol, that is what I wonder to myself. Sometimes I read webtoons really far and that one really negative person continues to be negative in the comment section and I am just like bro why are you still here xD? Usually I'm stubborn with my feelings and opinions so while it doesn't sway me usually I feel really drained by the lack of analysis and constructive immersion then I enjoy it far less. It makes you feel alone.
@@timmeyer9191I think you missed the point a little, it’s more that engaging in a fandom before or during consuming the media can make you see flaws that you wouldn’t have normally seen, ruining the piece. For me, I never watched GoT, though obviously I couldn’t avoid the discussions, so when I eventually tried watching it, I just couldn’t get through it knowing that the end sucked and stopped at season 2. The opposite of this is the Witcher, I watched the show before engaging in any discussions or other material and loved it. It was only after, when I played the game and read the books did I realize all the flaws in the show.
@@evilemuempire9550 I think I would rather have honest reviews. Time is a precious commodity, and I (and many others) cannot give every book, tv show, or film a chance. We just don't have the time, so we need to filter it somehow. Honest reviews from people that have seen/read it are a good way to accomplish this filtering. Much better than established entertainment media which are more akin to PR firms.
Flaws in the entertainment does not mean one cannot still enjoy the entertainment. I hear the negative and positive reviews, but it is up to me if I enjoy it or not. I can admit scenes in GoT were too dark and the storytelling became rushed, but I still watched it and could still see good qualities in it overall. You don't have to like everything about the entertainment to enjoy it.
On the flipside, I gave Netflix's live action version of Cowboy Bebop a chance, but I had to stop midway. To me, it was very poorly written and I should have stopped earlier than I did.
Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep has some homophobic remarks, but it is still a masterpiece of poetic slang & a great mystery too. Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None is my favorite book as it pretty much invented the modern thriller, but it was originally published with a racially insensitive title.
If we need to believe our entertainment is perfect in order to enjoy it, we may need to rethink our standards. If we consume entertainment we don't like because we believed the positive hype/promotion, are we sheep?
Merphy: "Iroh is a terrible character. This is why I hate him so much."
Proof that context matters.
I would argue that it proves details matter way more than context. I don't need to know the conversation you are I having. I need to know the details of what you mean. Terrible character is just kind of meaningless. Is his moral character terrible? Is he presented without depth? or is the archetype he represents repulsive to you?
@@robertblume2951 Those would be better ones to phrase that and get more attention from ppl who disagree. That creates a lot of space for a good and interesting conversation
@@robertblume2951 I think the reason why the commenter labeled this under context with Merphy quoting it is because, in the video, Merphy likes Iroh and is doing an impression of what a theoretical iroh hater would say.
With this quote singled out, it would make someone think that Merphy holds an opinion that she does not actually have.
@@Cardboard449 you could totally be right. Probably are in fact.
Honestly the best way that I’ve found non toxic communities is to just go straight to the meme communities. I just recently watched breaking bad and Neon Genesis Evangelion, and loved both, so I went on Reddit but the main subreddits seemed to be a lot more aggressive and sensitive when it came to people misunderstanding things about them, but the more meme specific communities were a lot more open to questions and things that I didn’t understand about the shows. Maybe it’s because the meme specific format kinda discourages taking things like that too seriously.
That's actually really valid.
Humor brings people together, and it can make new fans feel welcome in a space that's been there for years or even decades.
It also makes it easy to write off "bad" interactions or "wrong" opinions by just saying "yeah, whatever, it's just a meme. No need to take it so seriously." While yes, some content is very personal to some people, we should all remember that it's just a game. Just a story, or just a movie. It's okay to have different opinions, and a fun format can help reinforce that.
That's what I did with One Piece as well.Main subreddit is too preachy sometimed,other subreddits are toooo toxic.Only the meme one was balanced enough for me to join.And as if they have soo much time on their hands,they discredit and show discontent towards other subreddits.It's just become a cesspool of constant toxicity being spewed by fans of the same series on one another
Why do you give a shit what strangers think? Watch something if you want to.
Dude i haven’t watched Eva yet but I’ve seen some clips and the „everyone turned into Fanta“ meme is fuckin hilarious 😂
I think gatekeeping might be among the most frustrating toxic fandom traits to me. When I get into a fandom, I want to both talk about it with other fans AND bring more people in. I've had a few times when I've tried to get friends interested into various things I'm passionate about, and they've been unwilling, because they took one step and were immediately attacked for not already knowing decades-worth of lore, and, like, that sucks.
There's a huge difference, though, between, "Hey, please get interested in this thing I like because you'll like it, too," and "Hey, please get interested in this thing and join this fandom to interact with other people in it because I swear, we're not all crazy."
There are fandoms I'm into where I would absolutely tell someone, "Yes, watch this thing, but holy hell, stay away from the fandom by any means necessary."
Why do you give a shit what strangers are saying? Enjoy it if you want to.
People are vicious when it comes to their fandoms. This is why I enjoy your channel so much. You are honest and have even not enjoyed some of my faves, but I love the way you handle and discuss these things.
I have gotten really into reading serialized novels and stories on Royal Road. Unfortunately, I have noticed a horrible pattern with many of those stories.
1) Author puts out story. Story is good. Story takes off.
2) Author starts Patreon to make a little money for their efforts.
3) Author keeps making great stories.
4) Author finally makes enough from fan subscriptions they decide to "Go Pro".
5) Big spending fans start making "suggestions" for how they think the story should go.
6) Author starts adding little bits of fan service to the story. Quality goes down.
7) Author makes a change to the story that violates the headcanon of some big spenders. Usually involving ships or politics.
8) Toxic Big Spending fans go ballistic.
9) Toxic Fans Unsubscribe from Patreon.
10) Author changes story to pander to the angry toxic fans, because bills gotta get paid.
This gets REALLY extreme when relationships are involved. One author actually refused to have his main character get in ANY relationships just to avoid getting brigaded by the toxic pukes that tended to invade.
Honestly that last author is my guy. I am honestly annoyed with how many harem stories are out there so more Solo heroes is great as far as I am concerned. As to the rest I only see the end result of that stuff when it hits kindle unlimited so it doesn't bother me to much.
@@robertblume2951 Right? I am getting so tired of reading stories that start out great, and then suddenly take a sharp left turn into fanservice land.
*Results driven MC gets stuff done, growing and maturing for 100-300 chapters*
Suddenly, a wild multispecies poly harem appears! Half the chapters are become about the social dynamic of the harem, with excessive focus on the hijinks of the ditzy large chested/well endowed catboy/girl.
Reader: wtf just happened?
I mean, sure. Throw a relationship or two in the mix if you want. Whatever. AS LONG AS IT HELPS THE CHARACTER GROW.
In HWFWM, the MC has one or two relationships, but the focus is on the MC, and those relationships contribute to growth. Same with Defiance of the Fall. Randidly Ghosthound after the rewrite also purged a lot of the confusing relationship stuff.
I liked BtDEM until the great reset, where it became some kind of strange politics infused Harry Potter-esque school dating anime, and the protagonist de-matured by 15 years. And if you don't like it in any way, the core fanbase calls you an -istPhobe
In another story I was reading, it had a good plot with decent stakes and system, and then BAM! the focus shifted to the MC getting romantic with a 4-eyed talking cat.
Just confusing.
@@pjpleiss Dude. I totally got your back. Not familiar with those acronyms you threw out but totally familiar with those scenarios you laid out. I still read a few authors with series like that but put them down once they lose the story focus.
@@robertblume2951 Just for a decent story recommendation, HWFWM is "He Who Fights With Monsters".
Good progression fantasy story with a main character that doesn't get tied down in relationship drama unless it is specifically for the character's growth. He also gets powerful while still being constantly challenged. He's also pretty self aware when he starts acting like an emo edgelord and everyone mocks him for it.
The story isn't done yet, but I wouldn't be shocked if the protagonist basically becomes some kind of divine being at the end.
@@pjpleiss Got a friend named the Fuzzy Jew who loves that one. Got a recommendation from a coworker too. It's decent but I got annoyed with the main character and nope out when it seemed the silver haired girl was gonna be a love interest. Didn't really like her either. I am kind waiting for a different series by shirtaloon. I liked the story and writing so I am hoping he comes out with another one soon so I can give him a second shot.
As someone who has been interested in manga/anime, kpop, and books and tv series with large fanbases for many years, I had to get away from online fandoms since there was too much negativity and toxic positivity. Especially in kpop-yeesh. Now I just enjoy things myself or with irl friends who may like the same things. And of course follow content creators like you who are fun and create interesting discussions.
I left a fandom once because of a discussion over wether an asset that was left out of the game counted as canon (I don’t think it does cause it’s not in the final game, but we were discussing it). The conversation turned into them telling me my opinion is invalid because I wasn’t abused as a child (the left out asset implied the abuse of a character). I’m sorry, you mean to say I’m not entitled to an opinion because I lack real life trauma? I took my happy childhood and ran away from that fandom! (Thinking back, that person probably just wanted to see themselves in a character, but there was no reason to be so rude about it)
This is the issue I have with calling fandoms toxic, most times people label a fandom as toxic, it's because of one interaction like this. That whole fandom isn't toxic, that guy who argued with you is just an asshole.
@@spencercorpuz oh it wasn't just the one person, it was everyone in that chat. Though I understand what you mean, but sometimes it only takes one bad experience for someone to feel unwelcome (though you're right, that entire fandom wasn't toxic, I just didn't care to hang around there anymore)
@@rockyj885 This is completely valid.
Is the game FNAF? 😅
Here’s a good tip.
Generally the toxicity is on a sliding scale based on age groups. I have found fandoms of 35 yo+ WAAAAY more wholesome and enjoyable than the younger groups.
Politics doesn’t really play a factor but cultural values do as well. If they are 35+ and non-western I tend to have a good time. That means non-English speakers.
I’m glad I found my wheelhouse of wholesomeness and stayed there.
That’s my experience with the 2016 ghostbusters. Lol
I got the extended version where they curse in it… and still will never regret it. Love the 💩 outta that movie. Lol
You know...I clicked on this video expecting specific fandoms to be called out (and looking forward to it), but I'm really glad it wasn't. This was such a lovely video and I like this attitude.
my first experience of toxic fandom weas the early 2010s naruto shipping wars on tumblr. i had to remove myself from fandom for the sake of my own sanity as a 15 year old who literally did not give a shit about who should end up with who.
You have your word that you hate. I have come to hate the word toxic. That said, I agree with everything you said. Well articulated
I had this experience with ATLA recently. My brothers started watching the show for the first time, and it remi ded me how much I love it. So I got on to soci media to look around the fandoms and my goodness. I couldn't go one post without seeing some crazy drama or ship wars. Like, Kataang shippers and Zutara shippers have just been going AT it. It's so frustrating. I just want my fan content, is that too much to ask??
Sorry you had this experience. My interpretation has always been that the fans are just having fun (my personal favourite ship is zukka), especially since zutara fans usually acknowledge that yes kataang is cannon, so they just do their own headcannons and enjoy their own takes
The best fight is if ATLA is better than LoK. I'm old enough to know that it's a matter of personal taste so I never engage. I know what I love and I don't need to fight someone about it. But bring up that topic and it will go round in circles
My favorite fandom is the ASOIAF fans. Not because they are not toxic they are but because after 12 years of no content for the mainline series books, they have gone insane with theory crafting. I love the books but chefs kiss Tyrion is a time traveling fetus is such amazingly dumb creativity.
My conspiracy theory is that GRRM loves disrupting classic fantasy tropes. What is a bigger trope than that the author will finish it? He is doing this ON PURPOSE!
@@AustinBeeman Frank Herbert did it befrore him 😁(even if its technically scifi)
I used to be one of those theorizing idiots. Now I'm "finish the damn books" guy.
When we LOVE something, we move through two extremes. At first we love everything about it but over the years we keep thinking and we find flaws and things we wish the creators would make with our favorite characters. And when they don't deliver what we want or expect, love turns into hate. Because those are two ways to feel attached to something. We need to be careful with the way we feel about stuff. Being critical is great, really, but we have to look ourselves to notice when we become toxic fans. It's not so easy to realize.
Love is the origin of hate
As much as I shit on the series
"When one learns to love, he must also bear the risk of hatred"
-Midara Chuchiha
This is literally the moraculous ladybug fandom.
After years witnessing, being subjected and yes, also being somewhat toxic during my younger days, as a rule I avoid interacting with fandom outside my circle of close friends. Perhaps the worst thing I been subjected to (because I really don't care about them so I get dragged into it because of my indifference) are ships wars or people being so obnoxious about their ships with the early 2000's being the worst time for me.
The amount of people who vilified Ron in Harry Potter because they thought Harry and Hermione should be together were nuts in the 2000s.
Shipping is, at least in my opinion, genuinely the dumbest thing in fandom, and they get so heated about their headcannon. I genuinely don't understand shipping to begin with, so their investment in it is an act of mental gymnastics I don't think I'll ever be able to perform
@@warwicknaude5563 I have no issues with people shipping or shipping itself. Is just annoying how people take it too far and even attack others because either they do not care/ship the same characters or have a different ship.
@@CCZor I'm with you on not having a problem with it, at least for the most part. I don't understand it and think it's kinda stupid, but as long as they're not being toxic about it I don't care. Problem is, as you said, people take it to far.
@@warwicknaude5563 to stop this we need to start in our education, ppl have been taught they are meant to find someone with them and sexual “true love” is one of the most important aspect in a person’s life and success. Ppl are literally being praised if they “die for love”.
We also see this shipwar phenomenon in girls more because some old fuck just can’t stop putting this “love is all you need” mindset into female toddlers via brainwashing them with princess love stories
personally the way i've found positive spaces for me is by finding people and communities that fit my vibe that aren't tailored to specific fandoms. spaces where people don't share fandoms but feel free to introduce each other to things
I'm glad you enjoy the One Piece fandom
*reveals X hidden under my bandage*
PREEEEEACH Merphy lol It's just about being polite and finding something about the series you do agree on. i find a lot of disargeements and toxicity isn't even really about the thing but really about in-group dynamics, ego and projection.
A good video, I've begun to get paranoid when I see the word "toxic" from creators I like. It's gotten to be one of those words that people like to throw around a anyone who disagrees with them no matter how respectful or disrespectful they are about it but this was a well made video and you actually went into the fact that toxic positivity exists. A lot of people seem to want to avoid talking about it at all. Like it's as simple as "oh but see they're being positive about the series and that makes them the 'good' ones". It's nice to see it actually being addressed.
Thank you for making a more nuanced video than is typically released on this subject. My simple suggestion to drastically reduce the toxicity in modern fanbases is to stop inserting modern day issues into past works. It is divisive and counter productive.
You always have to consider the source if somebody I know is derogatory it might bother me but if it is just a random person I'm a lot more likely to let it roll off my back.
This is why I love brandon sanderson and his Fandom, especially especially especially 17th shard. Their whole crew are amazing, and try so hard to keep it not toxic in either way, they're good about it.
Merphy, I've found the 1% theory to be very true. I've found great people at every online community I've been a part of, and there are always a few stinkers. I think the main thing that's been a problem for me is that rare person who puts the most negative interpretation on my words and motivations possible. I try to check that in myself and assume the best in other people. It's sometimes hard though, not gonna lie. But we only see a small fraction of what a person is reflected in the little comment they post, and it's good to try to remember that.
There's no such thing as "toxic fandoms". Only toxicity in any/all online discourse.
Nerdrage is part of being a passionate fan. And people who can't handle disagreement over fandom are not fans, but fanboys/fangirls.
I learned a lot about the difference between fans and fanboys thru my own experience of being both.
The great thing about the internet, is that it does provide a space to vent, and to risk being toxic as you give unfiltered opinions on things you love and hate. It can devolve into pure bashing and unproductive antagonism... but you just have to walk away, mute, etc. when it does.
If you just want to geek out without people trying to poop on your party, then in-person book clubs, conventions, or private online groups should be your outlet... not comment sections, forums, or other public online spaces. That's the place for fans to divide into teams and battle... like sports fans... which are a much more primeval type of fandom. Soccer fans riot over soccer. Surely, nerds getting salty online is supremely benign, and silly if you compare it to that.
There's also a lot of toxic negativity around certain words, too, like undulating, ululating, and moist.
Oh fandoms can be such special places but they can also be an on fire garbage can. I haven't tried many book fandoms post-Potter but I'd hope they're more the former
The MHA "fandom" on Twitter is like a nuclear waste dump
On insta, too
I’ve been a huge Transformers fan for decades, and I largely disconnected from the online fandom around the time the first live-action movie came out. I completely agreed with most of the criticisms, and to this day those movies remain my most hated iteration of the franchise (which is saying a lot when versions like Energon and Kiss Players also exist). But the ways many people were voicing those complaints were absolutely vile, and then in response a number of sites overcorrected with toxic positivity and started banning any criticism whatsoever of the films regardless of how it was expressed. It got to a point where I didn’t feel comfortable on any of the sites I used to frequent. I definitely didn’t want to interact with the toxic haters, but couldn’t feel welcome on a site where I couldn’t express my many criticisms of the movie, and it felt like those had become the only two options so I just walked away
My biggest fandom struggle is getting my friends to keep up with my rapidly shifting hyperfixations lmao
Recently became completely obsessed with One Piece and had to scrounge around to find friends who’d read it to dump my opinions on and talk about it with lol
😂
@@cowboybarbaryn1302 I spent two months trying to get my friends to watch One Piece, then immediately started gushing about another anime they need to watch.😭
Oohh!! I am looking forward to watching this! Hope you and your family had a great Christmas!
I hope you had a good Christmas as well. Have a happy new year.
There are a couple of guidelines which I find helpful in navigating fandoms.
1) Keep your fandoms separate from the real world. No arguing about politics and religion within the fandom and don't project your real world values on fictional works. Judge characters according to the standards of the world the author has established. Also good people can enjoy messed up fantasy worlds just like messed up people can enjoy idyllic settings.
2) Know the demographics of your fandom. For example if it skews younger, know that there'll be more toxic and troll posts. Leave the arguing with 12 to 16 year olds to their peers. A lot of it is them just testing their limits and getting angry over it just gets a rise out of them. In the first place never has anything good come from any online debate with more than three replies and counterreplies. Ignore it, let them feel victorious and they will grow out of it eventually. Most of us did.
3) Stay away from groups with a mission other than having fun. Whenever a subset of a fandom turns into a love or hate fest for a project it's time to avoid that subset. It can be fun in the beginning, but after a short while those echo chambers get increasingly toxic and soon everyone who doesn't share the dominant opinion will leave or get banned.
4) I forgot the most important rule: Twitter is a cesspool. Avoid it, whenever possible.
I cracked up at the twitter one, twitter scares me I have never joined it all I know is everyone seems angry there :c
first two are nonsense tbh, 3rd one is good, last one is too, but it's not like other platforms like youtube are any better
@@natalimoinaYou are free to think so. I for one am part of a number of fandoms where a large part of the people have vastly different political beliefs than I do and I've seen how polarized things have become. Keeping politics and religion apart from the rest of the fandom, avoids a large part of that polarization.
There's a mob mentality on Twitter- I guess X now, which isn't nearly as bad on youtube imo
Probably this is a me thing, but I find it difficult to talk about books/series/etc. online. Say, on various discord servers, I sometimes feel like an outsider intruding on a conversation between friends. Not because they are mean or unwelcoming. Actually everybody is mostly nice. It's just that people there have history and they know each other, while I am completely new, and I have no idea how to be a part of those conversations. Sometimes I do get into a genuine conversation on Reddit, but I rarely encounter those people again. The majority of my experience on Reddit goes like this "here's a thing you should check out - Thanks, I will,. Could you tell me more?" and that's it, so there's not much to build from here. I want to emphasize that I'm not blaming anyone, it's just the way I am. Which is kinda strange because I'm not shy and rather open in everyday life But as the result, I'm yet to find a fandom to be a part of and I mostly watch videos on UA-cam.
You are so not alone there. I feel 'behind' joining any kind of established community. That feeling is unpleasant and causes me anxiety because I feel like an, as you said, outsider/intruder. I'm that way in real life, too. Being introduced into an established friend group is tense and unpleasant and I have to REALLY want to be there to put forth the effort to overcome it. I want to make online friends, but it is really a struggle for me.
@@drinkbooks in real life what helps me is knowing one or two people in the group before meeting them all, but coming to an already established group barely knowing anyone there never worked out for me too. If you ever figure this out I'd love to hear how 😅
Omg! It's nice to find someone that understands!
You are not alone! It's not just an "yours thing"...
I feel exactly like that too.
I usually end up just watching videos on youtube, looking for fan contents just as comics and fanfics, reading comments and seeking different opinions online... And talk a LOT to myself about these fictions I love.
It feels strange to talk with online people, it's just like you said, I feel like an intruder somehow. The only people that I can blurt out are myself and the very few friends that are also fans of the fictions I love. And even then, it's once or twice.
But... I think that being a part of a fandon doesn't means interacting with other fans, but spending more time with the content you love.
Searching videos, fan contents... It also counts!
I say that because I entered the Undertale fandon, and for the first time, I think I feel like a truly part of the community.
Not that I interact much, but it's so enjoyable seeing the love in people's works, the same as the one I have...
They are so creative. There are characters that aren't canon, that don't appear in the game itself, but everybody know and take as real. Alternate universes, that everyone (or most of them) believe to exist in this same fictional world, but anyone who had just finished the game and moved on wouldn't even hear about those.
And... Knowing this, that there are new things yet to explore, more theories yet to blow my mind... This is what made me continue in this fandon, even one year after finishing the game. This is what makes my experience with undertale much more precious. And makes me feel welcomed, since last year. Even still feeling like an intruder in discord servers.
Anyway... I hope you can, someday, feel like a part of some fandon. 🍀
Ps: sorry for any grammar mistake, I'm from Brazil, so english is not my native language...
@@jasminsonlines4543 So happy that you found a place to belong! That's wonderful!
as someone who doesn’t have this problem, it’s about how you look and engage, which is often based on the type of person you are. You have to be able to just filter out like 90% of shit out there
The most toxic thing in any fandom are the people who decide their head canon is ACTUAL canon.
It happens a lot with the shipping community to the point that they actually harass the creators if they go a different way as the series goes on.
Those people actively make enjoying art a chore.
Sadly that’s how the majority of medias make money nowadays, it works very similarly to hosts/prostitutes tricking their customers into thinking they are the one special via giving out small hints but never making any actual commitments (so their customers will spend more
The head canon people that attack people for disagreeing with their head canon are eternally frustrating.
With all due respect the headcanon ppl are definitely not the most toxic part of fandoms (maybe the power ranking ppl), at least not the shipping community. Most ppl are not acting as if their ships are canon, bc they obviously know they aren't. And just bc ppl write fanfic, draw fanart and talk about how some characters could be read as queer. None of that is toxic and even if some ppl don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not valid or meritful.
A lot of ppl consume the story like the canon intents and then again with their indulgence glasses on. There are toxic sub groups but that goes for every fandom and every sub community. The rep the shipping community gets is pretty unjustified and def not fair/negatively biased from what I've seen about all these dudes on YT making their whole video essays about stuff like that. Which is interesting that they somehow have problems with their fav getting shipped with each other but hentai subreddits (that are actually bad), not a word towards this. Lets be honest it comes mostly due to bigotry and outsiders just tunnel vision filtering through to the toxic ppl (ignoring all the massive amount of quality content and then also acting as if things that are at worst cringey and second hand embarassing are already problematic and braindeeaad and just generalizing a whole community. It's really annoying.
The only communities where ppl would actually go to a creator about ships would be in shows were romance actually is canon and an issue. Which is an issue itself if we talk about shonen, bc shonen mangaka can't write romance for the most part. Which also hangs with the fact that they can't write female characters and good dynamics between dudes and dudines. And i think considering and regarding shonen, lets be honest the canon couples are more bad than good in a lot of cases. A lot criticize which is valid if a couple is canon, it becomes more than valid to discuss the sense of the couple. Of course there are ppl that get toxic thats true, and those are just unneccessary! Harassing creators is just not it. But apart from ATLA I don't think creators would be involved or having to face the wrath of the fandom. xD And I love aang and katara but they just can't act as if they didn't create these vibes between zuko and katara (who had just more chemistry imo). Their own fault to write a character with a one sided crush that is used as a running gag.
What a great, balanced and nuanced view. Good job. 👍
Such a good and important conversation!!
I’ve unfortunately found the Harry Potter fandom pretty toxic when talking about it online. The Merphy fandom is quite nice though
Then there's the Percy Jackson fandom which is better and worse in different ways.
I don't talk online anymore about stuff I like I say read what thou wilt
I'm into a lot of TTRPGS (tabletop rpgs like dnd and other similar games) and maaaaan I think that is probably the most toxic fandom I have ever experienced.
Sometimes I join groups dedicated to specific characters or ships, especially if they're the ones that get hated on a lot by the general fandom, and try to engage with my fellow fans. From time to time, I see that even among said fans, they can get toxic either 1) They hate a character/ship that's most loved by the fandom with the same energy that fandom hates the character/ship the group is dedicated to; basically being no better than the haters 2) They sometimes get so engrossed with the fanfic, or fanart of the characters or ships people create or sometimes fan edits of screenshots, that they lose sight of what's actually canon and what isn't.
At first, I used to correct them or try to tame their passion a bit, but soon after I gave up because it's mentally exhausting. I definitely avoid the big public spaces for certain fandoms because of how toxic it can be and a lot of the times, they don't respect differing opinions.
When it comes to adaptations , studios have admitted to only caring about an I.P.'s popularity.
That is where Fans are right to feel exploited.
When I mention what my favourite book is and has been for nearly 40 years people always have a go at me because how can I read that book when I was that young and people also don’t like it because it is a 1400 page book 📖 love you and your amazing channel ❤❤❤
I think you are very right. Thank you for posting these videos. And thank you for putting up with my over-bearing Malazan encouragement.
I know a person that hates Iroh and is for a very stupid reason. She told me that she hates Iroh because he only cares for Zuko but never showed interest on helping Azula.
Thanks for the video Merphy! This was a fantastic discussion for sure! One of the best ways to find non-toxic spaces I've had was randomly finding Daniel's videos, and through him, finding yours as well! You two are really great, and though I'm obviously not having a discussion with y'all, it's still a really fulfilling way to debrief media, as well as learn about new things.
Excellent presentation. Thank you for a well thought out opinion
Oh boy I wish there were a list of toxic fandoms for me to avoid. Oh wait it's all of them once they got popular enough nvm.
I have more experience with corporations labeling fans as toxic for disagreeing with their changes in the adaptations. I thought it was interesting you mentioned toxic positivity, that has definitely become more of a problem I think
As an author, one of the things I want to try to do is cultivate a very positive fandom space. I work really hard to make sure my Discord is a welcoming and honest place.
Good for you. I hope you can achieve that. However, there are some that believe positivity means the absence of criticism. Criticism is not a bad thing, but the way it is delivered can be. Two people can make the same criticism, but one can be more rude about it. It becomes easy to equate the criticism with the rudeness and disregard the criticism itself. But in no way do I excuse rudeness or encourage people to engage with rude individuals.
I believe I generally agree with you.
Fandoms aren't toxic, that's far to broad of a blanket statement for me to accept. If a toxic person shows up to the conversation you can block, mute or just ignore them. If a group turns toxic, leave the group. Any further problems caused by sticking around is entirely your fault.
I also think that too many people take a legitimate criticism of their beloved stories/characters as a personal insult, because they've wrapped too much of their identity to said story/characters, which I find to be far more toxic to discourse.
I'm also glad you brought up toxic positivity, because that just outright kills any interesting or nuanced discussion you might have through an initial disagreement.
This feels similar to people fighting about politics (or any other very personal ideas) on social media - virtual spaces allow users to bring their worst selves to the "conversation," with little to no consequences. There is a tendency to forget that there are real human beings with real feelings and real lives on the other side of the screen. I've never participated in any online forums, but I did join an in-person book discussion for a specific book I was reading a while back, and it was one of the most pleasant, respectful communities I've ever been experienced. While online forums are sometimes the only option for certain fandoms, I think first seeking face-to-face interactions wherever possible is probably going to deliver healthier, kinder community... and I'm saying that as a mega introvert, haha.
The only difference is Politics often affects our lives in a very real way while Art does and can have an affect, it does not make policy and rules.
But i agree we should be able to discuss stuff without being mean and rude to each other. And I understand peoples distate of politics in genneral added with someone being a dismissive asshole would absolutely turn a person especially an introvert off of it completly. As an aside I had to laugh at this guy who went after my brother because of a picture, and said oh you must live in your Moms basement. My brother handled it incredibly well I wanted to flame the guy. But the take away is judging a person online by a picture is an odd own lol
I bought The Boneshard Daughter a few days ago because of your recommendation. It’s going to be my next read and I’m so excited!!
I’ve been in a few toxic fandoms. It’s amazing how the stress of those environments can spoil your enjoyment of something. As much as I love seeing other people creating art for things that I like, the older I get the more I feel like joining fandoms isn’t worth it.
Sorry for the downer comment. Happy new year!
Oh dear, that's so true. There are some people in real life I never watch movies with because they will spoil the surprises beforehand, and then there are people I won't watch movies with because they'll spoil the experience afterwards.
That goes double when there are multiple such people forming a community. Triple if it's online.
@@pRahvi0 Oh yeah. The internet brings out the worst in people. At least in-person communities have SOME social pressure to not be complete monsters, even if they're still mean.
I used to be keyed into forums/reddit/youtube discourse on stuff, but the negatives _far_ exceeded the positives. I'm glad I'm blind to online fandom these days.
For example, one of the reasons I dropped Doctor Who back in 2012 was because of the fandom, which had deeply entrenched sides on which Doctor/showrunner/companion was superior to the others. But I started watching it again last year with my friend, and honestly talking to her and my sisters about it in real life is a much more rewarding experience, even when we're being negative.
It's gotten to the point where even if I don't have anyone in real life that also reads/watches the same thing, I still won't join online discourse about it. It's really not worth it.
it feels like you want to say LOTR without saying LOTR😅😂
I used to never read anything but manga, but I think I kinda grew out of it since I read most of the good ones. However! For the past 2 years I have read about 50 fiction and your videos helped me a lot in shaping some of my opinions and I think that's great! In a way, your followers are kind of like a fandom in itself and a positive one too. I like it I think it's awesome so yeah thanks for that Merphy! :)
Thank you for supporting nuance in modern discussions about anything
It's a dying art
Exactly! People don't understand nuances anymore. The folks in Merphy's comments are some of the few on the internet who do.
Great video! Your perspective on toxic fandoms is the one true perspective, and anyone who has any problems with it is not a _real_ Merphy fan.
I don't know why other people's judgement matters that much. While I appreciate connecting to likeminded people, those that are toxic shrink in my eyes and their opinions with them.
It seems like TV show or movie adaptions can bring out the worst in fandoms (especially recently). And I have noticed that it is lessened the closer the author is to the production (being more faithful to their vision).
Because that generally means the show is good lol.
Take RoP or the downward slide Star Wars is going. The Witcher as well.
And worst of all. The last season of GoT
@Hououin Kyouma andor is really good
@@TobiasKryze Yep you should watch andor, its a bit slower start, but really grat, an i mean great.
Honestly imo some of the least toxic fandoms I've been a part of have been ones that most aggressively gatekeep. Yeah if you're on the outside and refuse to learn the way of things you're going to be turned away and have a bad time, but if you're willing to clear the proper hurdles I honestly think gatekept fandoms are some of the most rewarding to be a part of, and fulfilling some more elevated requirements for entry into the fandom really has led to a more rewarding time as part of a member of said fandom. Not really an aggressive positivity thing either, but more a "unless you're actually showing a willingness to fully educate yourself on the series, not dip your toe into some surface level adaptations, only then will your opinion really matter, be it praise or critique."
I guess it's not for everyone, but again, I suppose that's also kind of the point.
I can understand how we all can be a little toxic when we are passionate about something.
I am still working on not being so biased towards a character, especially one that I hate. Sometimes I hate a character so much, I cannot see other people’s argument.
I feel where I get toxic the most is when people really under estimate abuse of a duo/couple and call it “their dynamic” especially if it is a female character. If a male character did half of the abusive behaviors that the female does to a male character, he would get cancelled. If a woman does them, it is “their dynamic” or empowering. I can’t stand that double standard.
So while we are all complicit in this from time to time, we can learn from it and change our behaviors.
However, I do hate the gatekeeping and some fandoms not even trying to be open minded to other people’s perspectives.
Defend someone or not. Just explain why and at least meet in the middle. That is my goal. At least, meet in the middle.
Love your channel. Got here through One Piece, but your ideas and attitude are Great.
I found my space through fanfiction. I used to write D.Gray-man fanfics and was invited to join a Facebook group chat with a bunch of other authors in the fandom. We all became thick as thieves for about a year, meeting up in person at conventions, supporting each other's writing, making each other laugh, talking about life, etc. We drifted apart after two or so years. Now I'm a bit of a recluse and every fandom I join, I do so quietly and unobtrusively. The one, always positive interaction I have with other fans is when I write reviews for people's stories. They out here writing amazing works and I just want to make their day with a glowing review because I know how it feels to get that positive feedback. I feel a mildly parasocial kinship with fanfiction authors actually. I'm hopelessly obsessed with BBC Merlin and my fellow authors are still out there writing after we just passed the 10 year anniversary of the release of the last episode. I love my fandom.
I don't really interact much with fandoms, as I personally don't care much what others think UNTIL it effects what gets created from that property. Toxic positivity becomes a breeding ground for the creation of new toxic "canon" entries by the current owners of properties, and that is something I find to be toxic to the property as a whole, ruining what I once loved about it.
Currently, the fandoms that are labeled "toxic" are labeled that way, at least in my opinion, by toxicly positive people. There are very large problems with the current entries into old properties, where the new stewards of the past are ignoring or actively working against the existing lore, to make stories that do not fit the property or subvert the original author's intent for their own reasons.
I think those properties NEED "toxic" fans to bring the current owners back to reality and possibly put the properties back into the hands of stewards who care about what made them worth the fandoms that they created in the first place.
(Yes, I think Star Wars, Star Trek, Dr. Who, Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings, etc, are being ruined right now, and my opinions would be considered "toxic" by the toxicly positive people who don't even understand proper storytelling basics.)
I feel this channel is building a healthy community. That will stand up to toxic behavior
I'm an author. I enjoy communing with fans of writing and writers as well as conversations with other writers. I avoid anything toxic but I look forward to critiques and hearing the views of readers and my fellow writers. Fans help me understand what I need to do better.
Shortly after Alan Rickman passed away I felt sad and emotional, Like I had lost a friend. I've been watching his movies my entire life. Die Hard (10 years old), Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (8th grade), and Sense and Sensibility (20-ish) act as a sort of time stamp in my life. Even to this day Colonel Brandon is my favorite Austen hero. I joined a fan page to discuss the grief since normal people didn't feel the loss quite so acutely. I lasted eight hours. I referred to him as Snape and the moderator banned me. When I messaged her about it she went bat balls crazy and ranted about how disrespectful reducing him to a single roll was. After that I decided to love and mourn him alone.
Best way to keep a fandom from being toxic, limit it. Too many people to form bonds with leads to people treating one another poorly.
Just a quick FYI - I just checked and I didn't find anything online where somebody hates Iroh. So thankfully that is not a concern!😮💨
that's why I don't join fandoms, I just rant to my friends about the things I'm reading until they want to read it too
I do observe fandoms and, most of the times, the things I see convince me to stay in my own little fandom I've created with my friends
Solid analysis of an esoteric area. It’s when you go ”off-page” that I learn so much.
For me fandoms can be toxic in two different ways - inwards and outwards. And both of them suck. The first type is when people don't accept someone doesn't like their favourite book or series and are like "no, you have to try it again, you didn't get to the good part" or can't accept someone prefers other books. That's the problem many big and popular fandoms have, like Harry Potter of LotR. Sometimes when you tell a person you aren't into a critically acclaimed book they just can't understand it.
And when fandom is toxic inwards, it's more about ship wars or character wars. That's what I hate about many anime/manga fandoms I'm a part of like Attack on Titan. People are constantly arguing about which character was right calling the other clowns or traitors. Or other fandoms arguing about whih character is the strongest or whether the adatation sucks.
One of the things I hate the most is when a book/anime/any other piece of media becomes popular and some of the old fans are acting as if they were better than the new fans because "they liked something before it was popular". That's the thing with Chainsaw Man. Attack on Titan and many others. Acting as if someone wasn't a real fan because they have only watched something a month ago and you are in this fandom for seven years is awful because it makes new fans feel like they have to earn being in a fandom.
The best fandom I've ever been into - but i think it isn't as present in the US - is the Gothic game fandom. But even there I've encountered some toxic people. What is sad about fandoms is that they really can ruin a series to me. I used to love Attack on Titan with my whole heart - and I still like it very much, it's one of my favourite anime - but I'm not engaging in discussions anymore because people tend to start arguing over characters or their decisions instead of discussing them. I like talking with someone who disagrees with my opinion but I hate it when it turns into calling each other idiots. Sometimes I feel embarassed for the fandom, like FMAB fandom not allowing any other anime to be called the best or HxH fans who can't accept someone doesn't like it.
I always tend to become a hermit, always an outsider. Groups of people are really not my thing even when I try to engage and integrate. I think this is a defect and I don't feel better about not belonging anywhere by the way.
People identifying themselves by the groups "they belong to" have always been extremely weird to me. As if people couldn't be vastly different despite liking similar things sometimes, often for very different reasons. Fandoms, and mobs in general, can very often become cultlike in my eyes. There's always a time when you will inevitably have a very very unpopular opinion (which is fine, I don't need people to agree with me, nor do I seek their validation) and you will get attacked no matter how you approach it. Discussion is simply not allowed, cut short and you will get ostracized if you stand by your words, even if you're extremely respectful and accepting of other people's views.
Groupthink, rudeness, condescending takes, always filter me eventually.
The hermit way is lonely but incredibly liberating.
Great video! This conversation has been at the front of my mind lately because of some recent toxic fandom experiences that left me a bit over whelmed and questioning if just have really bad media interpretation skills (which I’m not ruling out 😅). It’s hard because I love hearing what other people think about the media that I love whether it’s positive or negative. But sometimes it’s hard to sort out legitimate criticism from the toxic stuff especially in larger fandoms with a lot of information and a lot of voices. All of those voices can make it difficult (for me at least) to figure out what you think.
I admit that I have some toxic positivity tendencies. I’m aware of them, and I’m working on it.
I think sometimes it depends on certain people in fandoms. Fandom as a whole are simply passionate about their story and characters, and some fandoms are more vicious than others, but not THE ENTIRE fanbase is full of people like that. I hate Amazon's Wheel of Time adaptation because Robert Jordan's story favorite piece of fiction and i hate the changes the show made and i think those changes make the story so much worse, I joke with my friends calling the show Waste of Time because we dislike it, but I dont hate people who like the show. To a certain extent, I think gatekeeping is ok. I'm not talking about pushing out new people who are normal from joining in the fun and growing that fandom, I mean keeping it safe from people on Twitter who want to change everything. Think of it like this, some twitter person comes into a D&D game played by a group of fans, then this twitter person sees lots of stuff wrong with the game and wants to change everything to how THAT person thinks it should be, the fans are upset and liked the game how it was being played before and didn't like the changes being made, now the twitter person gets furious and calls them bigots and racists for simply not agreeing with how the game should be played, who wants someone like that joining? Sometimes gatekeeping can be frustrating and actually toxic, sometimes I think it's understandable. Keeping new people out who just want to enjoy the material like the rest of the fanbase is actually toxic, keeping people who want to actively hate the source material and want to complain about how racist and misogynistic it is, is ok. That's just my opinion. If we are talking about ships on the other hand yeah everyone is toxic lol.
Here for this! I was so excited after reading Name of the Wind in 2018/2019... I started to engage in online forums to discuss my theories and observations, only to be told in all the reply comments that my opinions were either "wrong" or already distilled by the community. Still excited for the third book, but wow what an angry and hostile community.
@Rum Ham Good choice, I wanted to keep reading the moment I finished the second book! The second book gets criticism but I loved it because it expands the world.
Had this happen with the tv series Buffy. (Long story short: Buffy series got me out of a very bad and extremely depressing place) I joined the Buffy reddit page and it was immediate downvotes for liking certain characters and ships and a lot hurtful comments combined that with the never ending spam of hate posts towards said favourite characters.
It was a sad feeling, going to a big fandom page and finding an unmodded (in other words, the moderators there don't care) toxic page ruled by toxic individuals.
Just watched a few of your tropes vids, something i missed was time travel tropes, in my opinion this is even worse than reviving dead caracters, with time travel everything is off the table and reversable.
Trolls are why I left all social media several years ago. Definitely recommend disengaging.
I’ve barely started the video, but I know I’ll really appreciate this video. I’m so scared to interact in online fandom spaces. Of course all the proship/antiship drama doesn’t help with my anxieties. But then I get so sad when I scroll through tiktok and see people meeting friends they’ve made online and just having a lot of fun
Maybe don't use tiktok if it's causing negative emotions.
@@CarrotConsumer I mean, I see it elsewhere, discord, twitter, Instagram, that kinda stuff. It’s just one of those kinda bummer things where I’m like “damn, I want nerdy friends that I’m close to like that too” ya know? 😅 about had a panic attack though, I was at HolMat in Orlando a couple weeks ago and I saw some of the people I follow on tiktok but I was too scared to say anything 🤣
I know exactly what you mean! You see these people brought together by shared love of a piece of media and would love to have that, but then you see all the stories about people cast out for having a “wrong” opinio
I had a bad experience surrounding Rings of Power, youtubers and their comments section, and Tolkien fandom in general. I tried to like the show but couldn't get into it and thought it had a lot of problems. When I went online to discover what other people thought, People were so incredibly negative, scornful, derisive and toxic, and it went on for weeks and weeks. And then another side was accusing anyone who disliked the show of being misogynist, racist or a fascist. Which they often were, to be fair. I felt really caught in the middle. I even was accused of being a fascist at one point. I'm Jewish, so figure that out I guess...
So true about any Tolkien related fandom. I remember back in the day when the LOTR movies were coming out and the fandom was fighting over fanfiction. Also when the hobbit movies were coming out, there was so much conflict on Tumblr and people being passive aggressive.
That's pretty much most UA-cam critique channel so far, would recommend watching TW Advice or nasu not critiques but still fun
Also, another major problem with fandoms is that some people make being a fan of X their entire identity, so if they hear an opinion they don’t like or run into someone who’s not as passionate about it as them, they feel their identity isn’t validated, so they go bonkers.
First, thank you for using the correct 'their.'
Second, yep, you nailed it. There's also the people who consider themselves experts in whatever fandom, and it's, "Because I've amassed so much knowledge about X, I can look down on you and call your opinions wrong/stupid, and be completely condescending to you."
@@kateworkman921 1. Lol thanks 2. Yeah those people upset me as well.
Toxic Fandoms are the worst.
I'm part of the ASOIAF Fandom and we are very toxic. I'm part of that toxicity. Finish the damn books, George!
Poor boy. Keep being toxic about them deadlines and good luck. I walked away years ago because I went through this with Jordan and Melanie Rawn already.
Every fandom has potential for toxicity. As long as people are involved in the fandom, the potential for toxicity will exist. There's almost always one, or a few, who don't know how to express an opinion without being insulting or condescending towards those who disagree with them.
The worst people I have come across in several fandoms have been the ones who try and win arguments through moral purity. That is, state that a canon, or an aspect of canon, is morally corrupt in some way, and accusing anyone who disagrees (or even just anyone who likes it) of approving of the message they have stated that the canon has. The toxic version of begging the question, you could say. It has the power of completely devastating a fandom space. It has happened in every fandom I've been in or seen from the outside since around 2009-2010.
I think it's interesting how the value of things like moderated spaces is becoming acknowledged now that fandom is fragmenting again (through places like discord, for example). Being able to keep a certain vibe in a space is something that can make or break a fandom experience, and I'm actually really happy that things seem to generally move in that direction. Imitating social media was the worst thing that ever happened to fandom.
And you know, as someone who's been in fandom since the late nineties it's really funny to see chatrooms come around again! What's next, is mailing lists going to make a reappearance? Personal sites and webrings? Though personally I think the height of fandom was probably the journalling era, because for some reason those were the only sites who implemented real threaded conversations. I've never seen so much actual discussion between several people at once where it was always perfectly clear who said what to whom, and you could read it all in the same place. And the conversaions could go on for days! The only downside to discord is the real time aspect.
I have been around with some big fandoms, anime and kpop mostly and with both of them I had a massive burn out that wasn’t entirely due to the material itself, but from the exhaustion that came with the fandoms. In person, most of the time fandoms are great, there’s not usually as many issues. Online, (this varies but still) it is just an overload of issues, there’s not a single fandom I’ve been in where it didn’t have completely unnecessary controversy. I just enjoy what I enjoy on my own for the most part now.
Watching UA-cam videos & occasionally checking comments is only only interactions with fandoms so I don’t know what fandoms are like beyond 2nd hand impressions
That's why I prefer not to be in any fandom, besides there would be too many and I don't have the energy to coexist with so many people.
It's hard to find "Good spaces." You're going to have those toxic people, especially with large series eg Cosmere, or well known series, eg Wheel of Time.
I learn to ignore those things, and try and pick out certain people that DONT come off as toxic. Having people lay out why they like certain sections instead of stating "Youre wrong because" is a much healthier way to handle things, and though it's rare, it does exist, it just happens that you have to sift through some crap online now to prove it.
Big thing? Large fan pages on social media? Good place to find some friends who enjoy the same thing you do, bad place to stick around and try and interact.
@merphynapier Iroh is not only a terrible character but perhaps the worst irredeemable character in animation because the undulating undulater undulated the undulate
I love Iroh he’s one of the best characters of all time along with Corazon and WhiteBeard
I've noticed that a lot of fandoms I like, but others don't is because they saw one or two people hating on it so they go in very biased about it. I've gotten a lot of book recommendations from your channel and several other Booktube channels and even other social media platforms. I then try to avoid spoilers and other opinions especially if I am new to the series because I don't want to learn later that I could have found my new favorite book if I didn't listen to "influencers" about it before hand and discovered my own opinion later. All my own opinions though! Everyone read what you want to read 😀
15:06 You've have wonderful experiences with _SPANDAMS?_
Well, I get what you meant, but what you said was pretty funny.
Another thing why the fandoms are toxic, it's because they feel their favorite shows had rushed endings.
I think the worst fandom stuff is people condemning anyone who enjoys an evil character. Or that liking a series with corrupt content means they’re disgusting people irl.
I started One Piece a few months ago and I'm currently on Chapter 1027, I can't wait to finally catch up so I don't have to worry about being spoiled
Chapter 1043 and 1044 is awsome.
You're close dude!!! Congrats on sticking with the series, it is peak fiction 🔥
Welcome to the weekly grind hahaha
Yeah, dont drop your guard. My friend is an anime only watcher and just one wrong search and he got spoiled about something really major that even you have yet to reach. Some really big world changing things have been revealed to us in recent chapters, specially as we are so close to the end. So what I mean is, dont ease up and catch up quick :D
What did u write abt MF and Ace
If there's one way I've accidentally spoiled myself it's trying to remember something and googling [character name], or perhaps [location]. DO NOT