SA80 History: L85 A1 vs A2 (and the coming A3)
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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At last, we have reached the L85A2, when the rifle was finally made into something reliable and effective. In 1995, after extensive public scandal from the L85A1's shortcomings being blatantly exposed in the first Gulf War, Heckler & Koch was given a contract to retrofit the rifles. At the time H&K was owned by British Aerospace, so this remained an arguably British program. The H&K retrofit consisted largely of subtle changes to materials, tolerancing, and finish, but it would lead to very significant improvements in performance (these were the ares where the original Enfield design team had the least experience).
The new A2 rifles were introduced into service starting in 2001, and have receiver widely positive reviews. This is the rifle that the L85 could have and should have been from the very beginning. In addition, further improvements will likely lead to an A3 variant in the relatively near future. Currently the main improvement is HK's "A3" (not yet a government designation) upper receiver, which is stronger and has an improved optics mounting rail.
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Eh, the only thing that needed to be fixed was the trigger, lower reciever, magazine, bolt, gas piston, charging handle, extractor, hammer, and springs; sure all of those are required for a gun to work properly, but whatever
EdM240B
You forgot pistol grip, butt plate and hand guard
basically every single component except for the barrel and receiver and even that had to be modified in some way i would consider that a huge change
"But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, the education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what else did HK do?"
@@AshleyPomeroy Never expected to see a Monty Python reference here. Made me chuckle :)
“Basically, the entire bloody gun needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, but it’s a good weapon I swear.”
H&K : So... What do you wanna fix
British : L85A1
H&K : What's the problem?
British : Yes
they kept the cuteness
I dunno, I think the L85 form to be "cute".
-CFW. Magic- I think the sa 80 is the most beautiful modern day military rifle
A3 is here
www.forces.net/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image/public/new%20rifle.jpg?itok=JyebSBc8
H&K: The rifle....after all these years?
UK: Always.
@@magic_cfw I have a fondness for bullpups, and I can't even really say why. Wish I could shoot one…
How bloody annoying is it that most of HK's fixes were the kind of quality detail work that should have been done in the first place? ;-(
The Wicked Witch of the West (Thatcher) had sold off all our manufacturers to the highest bidder and everyone was on strike so then they all shut down. Then she pushed the weapon into service before it was even finished and everyone was wondering why it didn't work. Only took 30 years to get it fixed because nobody wanted to spend any money on putting it right
Or should have been done continously as part of the continued support of the weapons. We dont give F16s new names eventhough the ones still flying only really has the frame in common with the original.
He clearly explained the new names are to make the new parts clearly distinguishable.
@@AidanMillward Thatcher was the best thing to ever happen to the UK if it wasn't for her the UK would still probably be 90% coal power today with all parties terrified to change anything like Australia's political parties are today.
More annoying that they were mostly caused by penny-pinching which resulted in them needing to practically replace 90% of the parts anyway, meaning it cost MORE in the long run. Typical British government.
This A2 is actually very good, I once put 5 mags through it in Afghan during a contact, even after t had been caked I dust.
I mean it's basically a bullpup AR-18 at the end of the day so if you design it properly (like the L85A2 does) it should be a very reliable firearm.
@Microwave just do as your screws tell you to, its a good weapon and you'll probaly end up using the A3 soon if you get through Training which Is practically the same weapon.
@Microwave good luck with it man I wish I could've got in but due to a medical issue (damaged patella tendons) I didn't get in but that was a couple years back now but I'm going in to be an instructor with the cadet force instead but good luck man I've got a lot of mates who have went through Harrogate and a couple who have now finished phase 2 training, if I may ask what regiment you going into?
@Microwave it's heavy compared to the M16 but very effective
On ex had to get rid of blank rounds put 23 full magazines through before a stopage. As long as its well oiled it will be no problem in my experience .
The most heartbreaking statement ever "Enfield didn't have a lot of experience designing firearms".
Enfield have more experience than many arms manufacturers, blame the m.o.d for cost cutting and rushing it into service
@@matthewfindlay2242 That's the tragedy of it all and I suppose BAE systems had a finger in the privatised pie. Shame they didn't develop the EM-2 and stop adopting whatever useless bloody round the Americans have set their heart on this week.
@@T8Hants
Thank you very much, Thatcher.
@@T8Hants You do realize that 5.56 was developed in the late 70s, and was standardized by NATO in Oct 1980, right? That's almost 40 years with the majority of our military light rifles using a single cartridge.... I suppose you have a point if you're looking at *all* US military rifles, but they don't all do the same job, no?
@@Forge64 In 1951 with the EM-2 Britain had a bull pup, intermediate round firing rifle that was apparently thirty years ahead of its time. The adoption of 7.62 NATO was a retrograde step, which it took the thirty years to recover from. Had the Janson had that thirty years for continual development, undoubtedly we would have avoided the errors the early SA 80 suffered from. However because the US must have its own way, we went backwards for political reasons, not technological.
"We have a legimate proof that this is an A1 Rifle , because the buttplate has broken off"- ;DD Made my day
made me smile as well :D
Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud.
im surprised that's all that fell off
If the gun's broken when issued, or if it punches you in the face the moment you try to fire it, it's probably an A1.
I have an airsoft version, it's better made in Japan than the real thing. More reliable to!
"...And you'll note that we have definitive proof that this is a legitimate A1 rifle because the buttplate has broken off"
Come for the guns, stay for Ian
The A2 is a great rifle. I used mine a lot and never once had a miss feed. I cleaned and zeroed it well whenever I could. My only complaint is it's weight with the SUSAT attached and how it feels clunky to hold. Also the TMH pin had a habbit of wanting to come out.
Weight is a a pro aswell though , more weight makes it a more stable firing platform...... Sucks carrying it though
The Army must have changed then. I zeroed mine whenever the Army told me to at 0 dark thirty. I like my comrades were forced to do it. Range booked for 01100, be at the Arms Kote at 0530 to draw weapons.....
My only issue was getting smacked with the working parts because the idiot next to me pulled his TMH pin too far and it sprung out
@@dulls8475
"Range booked for 1100, be at the Arms Kote at 0530 to draw weapons"
And you should always be 15 minutes early, so 0515 to draw weapons, but only if you want to be at the back of the que, so 0500 then.
No breakfast? Warned through orders = cookhouse by 0430.
"Range booked for 1100" Arrive at range at 1030 and begin the REAL aim of the day - 10 hours of first aid and NBC "background activities".
Finally get to shoot at 1700 with a rifle you haven't seen for 4 months, freezing cold and piss wet through - blag a shite score on APWT and then another hour of trying to get the damned thing spotless before getting back on the old Dennis Javelin back to camp.
Another hours cleaning outside the armoury and then weapons hand-in.
Next day, warned through orders for dirty rifle, back to the block and three clicks to freedom.
@@digitalradiohacker That sums up range day perfectly. You should have got a mucker in the butts to only patch the bad shots and leave the prior guys good shots for you to claim. It did not always work as your mucker might leave 21 holes in after firing 20 rounds. My favourite is that we always had one guy who would shoot at the target next to his. Without fail...
Didn’t do forward assist
British squaddies: HEAVY HEAVY BREATHING
Wangy Mcwangg my thought exactly😂
Haha
Did you see the way he whacked tbe magazine in lol
In the A1 video he also says the SUSAT looks super tough and couldn't break.
*breathes in tritum deeply'
Is forward assist still a nessecary thing with the A2?
We need a mud test of the A1. Although this might actually fail the ''l'm gonna fire five rounds to make sure it works'' -part.
Five? 😤😂😂😂😂
It would probably break and not work before jamming
You'd be lucky to fire five rounds without malfunction from a brand new rifle
@@Beloroth Nonsense. This rifle is an effective club. Mud makes it slippy though so thats a problem.
If you say the word mud near it, it'll fail.
The A2 however will take anything you can throw at it.
We trialled the weapon during our Winter Deployment in Norway in `86 and genuinely thought we were trialing a prototype. The faults were obvious, cheap plastic furniture didn`t like the cold, the mag was shite, fell off, got bent, the sight was assembled in air and froze up after a day or so, ,after firing one or two rounds the bolt carrier could freeze as it moved forward and the firer took his finger off the trigger giving the impression the weapon was safe with a round chambered, body heat would then melt the carrier enough so it would then continue forward and fire the next round. So many blokes were getting charged for negligent discharge, it became SOPs to make safe after firing, how tactical is that? And on and on and on. As someone trained on the SLR, I was amazed by it`s accuracy, the way your group shrank was very impressive and as mountain and arctic troops , the sling was fantastic. Carry it on your back like a bergan, across your chest with the berg buckle to drop extra length or my preferred way, under one arm for skiing. I thought all of these faults could be/ would be fixed by the time the rest of the Corps were issued with it, but the only thing they fixed was the sights were later assembled in dry nitrogen to avoid the condensation freezing issue. I don`t care that it`s now a "better weapon" I don`t care how much they spend on it, they cannot "fix" it`s elephant in the room problem. This is not an ambidextrous assault rifle. Think about that.
And to support Phil`s post, HM Govt wanted to sell Enfield as a going concern with a full order book , it wasn`t Enfield`s fault.
The concept of the thing was great but the production, testing, some of the finer design choices were just awful and that's what made the A1 a piece of shit. The A2 is a great rifle though. All it took was redesigning basically the entire thing 😂
@@bradcogan8588 Its still the mini metro of the gun world, Maggie said that was wonderful as well. Sooner have FN SCAR !
I heard that plastic on the A1 also used to melt when first brought to the middle east
@@PaddyMorphimus They get pretty hot when shooting and I'm pretty sure the plastics are the same ones that were used on the A1s. I don't think it's the kind of plastic that melts, it seems like it would just go brittle with heat. I have had a couple of butt plates disintegrate on me.
@@PaddyMorphimus The insect repellent attacked the plastic !
"Let me show you the highlights of H&K's modifications'
_Proceeds to take the whole rifle apart piece by piece_
How the fuck do you get the text like that?
@@damianchristopher205 in my case, I'm typing on a Samsung phine with the default keyboard, and using " * " , " _ " or " - " at the beggining and end of words will alter their presentation. For _italics_ I use underscore, for *bold* I use the * , and so on.
Don't know if it works on other keyboards.
@@myrddrral thx, but I remembered seeing a part of it that was a different font size. Maybe I imagined it
Its super easy to take apart and re asemble
This reminds me of the Only Fools and Horses bit about Trigger's "old" broom that had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.
rudeboystu69 what? This makes no sense.
Lol that’s exactly what I was thinking!!
@@julianshepherd2038 It's the Ship of Theseus issue. The problem is two fold:
1: Identity doesn't have to be tangible. (It isn't tangible in itself!) So defining an object by something other than its material/substance is extremely common (e.g. its function). This is how 'my brush' can be different to 'a brush'.
2. The relationship between an object's identity and the pragmatic context of such identity can be seen in either direction: the history represents the ship or the ship represents the history, which then helps dictate which is more important to keep consistent/original/intact etc..
@Benghali In Platforms the joke is bureaucracy is 'thick' Trigger gets an award from his local government employers for having the same brush for so many years, in that time the brush head and handle were replaced so many times....it wasn't the same brush, like this weapon, so many parts replaced. Trigger is thick, but still outsmarted his employers.
@Bob 1 to be fair Bob the channel is mostly followed by Americans who have never been exposed to 'Only fools and horses' and with a name like 'Trigger' its easy to think of that part of a gun and be totally bemused. Do they call him 'Trigger' cos he carries a gun, no cos he looks like a horse.
I still have nightmares over the A1 during basic, if that version was to be introduced into service now the MOD would have so many law suits. I spent so long cleaning the thing and it still didn’t work. So many lads were given beastings because of that piece of shit because the British way is to blame the user and not the weapon system as the weapon system costs the government more to replace.
The MoD is a totally fucked up organisation of penny-pinching, inky fingered civil servants. It is logically to test the prototypes in all battlefield environments. Test the weapon to destruction, then re-engineer, then test again afterwards, if perfect put the weapon into mass productions. Easy, a child could think of it.
That's what the Russians do with the AK.
@@elizabethtamp1537 They do test stuff and then ignore they findings, the DMS boot for example gave soldiers trench foot in the Falklands. The high leg version was only got rid of recently. who would think a card board and leather dust / glue insole(feroflex) that never dry's out in the field is a good idea?
@@peterwait641 They ignore the findings if those finding go against their theories. Theory is always more important than reality. Also, they think that if you lie and pretend a thing is of high quality, that makes it high quality. What, soldiers are getting hurt or killed because of their own equipment? Well, it has to be their fault. Problem solved.
@@Ocrilat I served in the US Marines from 76 to 97, very little difference between our ways and yours.
@@johnmcclain3887 Well, I live in the USA, so they are probably the same.
What I'm talking about here is that what happened with this weapon (problems were ignored and covered up for years) is nothing new. The way I see it, it was and is a matter of their social class system, where upper-class theorists sneer at reality, and blame any problems with their theory in the field on the 'poor bloody infantry'. I'm mostly familiar with this from the 1920s and 30s, but it seems to me to fit that pattern.
Great review, I enjoyed your explanation. I used both the A1 and then the A2 whilst serving. The A1 was dreadful, the firing pin would regularly snap and the housing would very easily jam with live or spent cartridges. The upgraded A2 was a different beast and I never had any issues with it, it became a very pleasant accurate rifle to shoot.
I was lucky enough to be in service before and after the change's to the weapon system, the cocking handle was the single biggest change and made a huge difference. Oh and by the way the parts that are painted/sprayed red are so that the grunt's knew where to put oil when prepping/maintaining the weapon.
“Blimey! Can you make it any heavier?”
“Well we can hang a big Maglite on it.”
You've obviously never carried an SLR with a Starlight scope around the paddy fields........
I have humped an M60, various mortar components and a PRC 77 amount other things
That and you needed to add it's weight again in insulation tape just to keep the damn magazines from falling apart.
Starlight scope? Try an SLR with an IWS attached to the top. @@stuartjarman4930
The Radway Green mags were a special sort of shit. Had to tape the bottom up, so it didn't spring open.
MajorLongDong
I remember that. The bottom of 2 of my magazines had a tendency to pop out.
I was very happy with the A2 when I got issued it.
I had a double feed off one while using an L98A1. Fucking hated that gun.
Is that why you see tape on every mag in the papers? And thanks for your service
When i was based in South Armagh in 1999 and Londonerry in 2001 we all got issued Colt mags. Much more reliable.
On the RG mags yes. The H&K steel mags and Magpul E-Mags are much more reliable, never had an issue
I've shot the A1 and A2 as well as m16, M4, And the AUG. The A1 was horrific, but it was mainly down to the magazines . The mags originally made were tinny, thin metal construction and I was once told were supposed to be throw away made by the ammunition company radway green. As well the improvements you mentioned the new magazines really made a difference, I've shot this against its modern competitors and it isn't a bad rifle. It is very accurate, it's not brilliant on auto but in single shot it's very nice to shoot, us brits don't use auto much anyway as we are into Ammo conservation. I think when people slag it down they are mainly talking about the A1, which was pretty dire or using it on a video game....the Sa80a2 has served us very well. I've shot 800 plus rounds through this rifle in one sitting, as long as you look after it , will continue to fire.
The piss weak return springs I thought made a massive difference you could feel the bolt returning so much more crisply in the A2
Looking at the slow motion the brass reflecting charging handle seems to be a gift straight from heaven O_o
DesRoin
as a guy who had more than his fair share of hot brass getting inside his combat jacket, I can say it was.
still have scars from that.
Even better at .25 speed
Funny I thought the exact opposite. While nice footage that seems to not be very positive ejection. As long as the round hangs around in the bolts cycling it almost causes a stoppage. This is an example of how you want that spent case OUT and AWAY from the ejection port. Maybe not so far as a HK roller delayed rifle or a Dragunov but more definite than this anemic ejection that seems to rely on the charging handle in part. Weak design. Holy shit a terribly designed weapon.
Mad Jakal I can only assume the ammunition they were using was lower charge for less wear on rifles that are effectively museum pieces and since they’ve only got a ~30m range.
All my experience with the SA80 platform is that the cases eject much more vigorously than shown in the slow-mo footage Ian captured
@Mad Jakal yeh it really looked like that brass was liable to not want to leave.
Ill-conceived design, non durable materials and shitty welding?
Seems that the designers have worked for a British car manufacture before...
That was a cheap if perhaps accurate shot :P
Yes the UK taxpayer got fucked in the arse yet again !
Richard Maunder Nah. Tax never went up. They wasted their budget but the tax would have been the same either way
Tax goes up all the time when the UK lost over £800m per year in tax because of the hand gun ban in three parts of the UK 20 years ago they put more tax up on fuel, homes, parking etc , etc and now we have VAT at 20% as well. :( and your VERY right the Gov waste far too much taxpayers money because it's not there own money so they don't care how's it spent.
Richard Maunder Yes Tax goes up with Inflation but my point was we are already being screwed. We are always going to be screwed, Might aswell arch our backs and get on with it 😂 Also as an Ex-Navy (I hate this word because of the puns) Seaman I think the 2 great fuck off aircraft carriers we got that we cant even fill and the fancy Destroyers we have that have a bad habit of breaking down all the fucking time are prime examples of the government not giving a fuck
I loved my SA80 even had zero issues with the A1 but the A2 was an improvement. I was in 1990-2014 did Iraq in 90 then Bosnia twice UN & NATO, then GWOT back to Iraq 2003 & 07 & finally Afghan in 2013. SA80s served me well my entire life
Yes. I know a guy who was in the infantry and toured Northern Ireland twice, and used the A2. He liked it. Christian Craighead said it was like jazz music .. most people really hate it, but you find a few who love it! LOL!
I was waiting for the range officer to cuff his lug, for the lack of forwards assist.
Great vid! The rifle still gets shit because for its history, but it's now a very capable platform.
He also hit the bottom of magazine to lock it in place.
Barry Wanders What do you mean cuff his lug for not using the forward assist? I can't speak ENGLISH English so I've never heard that saying.
so a cuff of a lug is a smack around the ear, so on placing of magzine you tap/hit the cocking handle forward to ensure the first round is properly seated, even though this drill dates back to the a1 and was fixed for the a2
The mag and forward assist thing are remaining shadows of the old A1. You definitely don't need to do them in the A2 but it's just in case the ghosts of the A1 rear their heads 😂
About time the actual a3 was reviewed.
H&K takes two seconds to show up a committee's decades of "firearms" "development." Proof that you can't replace experience.
I wonder if when H&K's techs first looked at the SA80, if they all burst out laughing at all of the amateurish mistakes.
Well at the time H&K was British owned (not anymore, sold back to the Germans) so there was probably a few laughs followed by "look what the muppets did here!"
A gun put together by increasingly disillusioned engineers and techs who knew their jobs were about to be shitcanned. A problem most of the UK's industry suffered through/died under in the 70s/80s.
They wondered how they lost the war !
Bear in made BAE bought out Enfeild and made a fortune creating the crap, then bought H&K and made another fortune fixing the crap.
51WCDodge
I wonder how much of the A1's poor finishing was due to an unhappy workforce who knew they were going to be shortly made redundant by B.A.E
This has been a most insightful group of vids concerning the various British current rifles. Brilliant & thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it! There are a few more videos coming about other parts of the SA80 program...
Atlanta Chrome I just wish they would bloody make it ambidextrous! I'm not look forward to using it when I go into basic training in September :(
Ben Jones. It's really not that big a problem. Especially if you haven't been trained to fire a rifle left handed before. When I joined I'd occasionally fired some bolt action rifles and shotguns on ranges and hunting, and I'm a lefty. So it was a bit of a surprise for me that I didn't have any difficulty transitioning to the L85.
The most comprehensive and educational video of the L85s, by far! Thank you!
"Zees Englishers cannot buildt a single sing, correctly can zey, Hans?"
"Nein Otto, but zey are payingk us to fix zem! Das ist gut? ja?"
*efficient German chuckles follow*
Wanderer628 a british company but with German employees and with a German manufacturing facility
Good to know US ignorance is still a thing, it's funny how i had the honour of serving with some US soldiers and none of them came off like the ignorant kids you bump into online, maybe some national service would show you to have some respect for military history and all the men and women who gave their lives.
Soren G well it wasn’t you was it. It was the US gov and Military at the time but ofc you want to talk like you he anything to do with it
It was British owned company not a British company the people that worked there where German so the guys who designed and worked on the parts and all that where most likely German. The more YOU know.
Wanderer628 british OWNED company, in German territory and with german staff. God how can people be so retarded is beyond me.
What insightful pieces of video. I've really been enjoying the SA80 "series" with all the attention to detail and the small revisions. Excellent work!
I love that "tactical flashlight" :D take it off and you got yourself weapon better and more reliable than riffle itself;)
Take out the batteries, and replace with a small flask of whisky.
@@richieb7692 Even better!LOL
Take out the second “F” and you’ll have the proper spelling of “Rifle” ;)
What’s a riffle?
@@abefroman8202 the sound of H&K counting their fees for the upgrades!
Love learning about the SA80, your videos on it are just superb. Your videos in general are superb, learn so much, you're a great educator of firearms!
“You can tell this is a genuine A1 rifle, as the butt plate has broken off”
Oh god the shame haha. We couldn’t even fix it ourselves the shhhaammmmeeeeeeeee
IIRC, H&K was owned by a British company at the time, so technically you guys did?
Keyword: owned. H&K has always been a German company.
@@bryanadkins6776I’ve only recently learnt this too
And it was basically built to the original specification, the original a1 was built in a rush by a dying Enfield that let numerous production faults pass quality inspection. However there were modifications made for the a2 as upgrades but none crucial as I remember it
this takes me back to the hours upon hours of cleaning my rifle.
I actually miss it. It was relaxing.
Endex with a boiled egg and zoned out with exhaustion, a lovely feeling.
@@dulls8475 it was definitely just the relief of it being over and finally being able to sit down and relax.
@@munky342 I always remember the weapon cleaning at Endex. Eating a boiled egg and the quite chatter of the blokes. Sort of subdued but happy. then into the 4 tonner and the long trip back to England from Senybridge where even the crap suspension could not wake us up.
@@dulls8475 mate, the old Daf 4 tonners were dogshit to be in. But nothing was getting between me and sleep by that point. I'd have thrown hands with my csm for 10 minutes kip 😂
The Magite is called 'Fakir'. Was used only in N.Ireland. Would be used when setting a vehicle checkpoint and the like to look for IED's placed at night.
MajorLongDong Odd name considering that means begger/penniless in many language.
That's it's actual name. Used it in Northern Ireland.
The 3 tours I did in NI, it was called "Streamer"
mac4564 why does the U.K feel the need to do tours of duty in its own back yard?
Mechanized Ape Because there was a small problem known as 'The Troubles'. The UK suffered from terrorism long before Islamic Terrorism was a thing.
+Forgotten Weapons, I would be really interested to know your final opinion on the L85A2? Compared to other rifles in use today.. Thanks you and great upload
I would also like to know Ian's opinion on bullpups and whether the "AR-15" of the future will be a well-made bullpup or not.
Can't believe I just watched the same upload again, 6 days later ffs
i think he touched upon the questions you asked in his latest two Q&A's to date. iirc, the A2 is a good gun, just too heavy in ian's opinion, since it's heavier than a fal. regarding the ar platform future, i remember him talking about internal advances over exterior, ie, better internals, but sticking with the tried and true design ergonomy. he seemed to think that bullpup might die out because it's too complex for the few advantages it offers as an assault rifle.
this is from memory, so please go check out his vids if you're curious. both are about an hour long and he answers a lot of questions in those vids, so i might've confused and combined a couple of details.
If they manage to fix the issues with ambi-(un)friendliness, trigger pull, and extra complexity - then maybe. But that for the time being seems physically impossible.
I've heard that fact about it being heavier than a FAL before, but honestly I don't know where it comes from as the L1A1 weight 9.6 lbs empty and the L85 weighs 8.4 lbs.
“We can prove it’s an A1 because the butt plate has broken off” Love how he’s so casual about it.
It's not just the weight that makes it controllable under full auto.
The pivot point for that while firing will be half way between the action and the butt plate.
Because of the great length between action and the foregrip you have much greater leverage to keep that rise balanced.
_"Give me a lever and a place to stand and I will move the earth."_
Archimedes of Syracuse
(c. 287 BC - c. 212 BC)
Also the idea with the left handed charging is that youre always in control of the rifle, as your right hand never leaves the pistol grip
"You'll note, we have definitive proof that this is a legitimate A1 rifle because the buttplate has broken off."
That shit had me rolling
I can't be the only one who tried to wipe away the dot on the wall.
Mister Bearpunch There was a dot on the wall?
Mister Bearpunch I kept wiping my phone screen but it was still there😂 not just me then. What’s with stupid annoying stuff on videos? Very interesting but OUT damn spot!! 😝
Lol I just tried
Was trying to scratch it when I say this comment
Back for a rewatch, that Maglight glued on the bottom always makes me smile 😃
Well, you can really see the difference the brass deflector makes in the slo mo shots.
Brought back some funny memories of the A1, especially the magazines, they’d burst open when firing, quickest mag dump ever 😭. Remember being attached to an Airborne unit when the A2 was shipped in, it was/is a good upgrade from the A1.
It’s actually mind boggling, the vast rift in experience and competence at design between these rifles’ designs
I don't know what it is but I really love the look of these guns compared to other military rifles across the world
My favourite gun. I know it's bad mechanically. But I just love the look. I was allowed to hold one when I wash around 12 (1992 at school) and it's forever been in my heart.
Ian...OUTSTANDING !!! This may be an overview but Its greatly appreciated as I never realized there were actually
earlier versions of this weapon that actually...worked ? The discontinued Bushmaster m17S also uses the AR180
bolt and piston.
The L85A1 was a dreadful weapon, but stoppage drills were on point as we were constantly clearing jams!
I love how they summed up the differences between A1 and A2 in Top Gear that the new one just works.
The black on the gas cylinder isn't black to distinguish between the A1/A2, its rust proofing. The same coat of paint that is on the barrel and other parts of the rifle. And with regards to the information on an A3 rifle, yes they have brought in A3 bodies but also there is actually an A3 rifle in testing now you can search it, it looks like an AR15 front end at the front which has replaced the DD rail system.
That mag light probably add 3 pounds to an already fairly heavy gun. Atleast H&K fixed this thing with the A2.
Would love to see a breakdown of the A3 variant to finish off this series on the SA80/L85.
Whilst I was on excercise in the Brecon Beacons a few years back, I was given the LSW to use. The mistake I made was not cleaning it, every two or three rounds meant a stoppage.
watching the case deflector work in slow mo is really cool!
"just those parts" yup just all the of the gun that does anything, just those parts, not much. I mean without those parts you have a metal box and a steel tube, but yeah whatever. XD
KyleNo4Mk2
A fancy rifled steel tube. But a useless fancy rifled steel tube.
Everytime he says gun my instructor screams in my head "its not a cannon and its not on a ship its not a f-ing gun!"
I know right :D
As the great author wrote: "This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for shooting, this is for fun." I won't elaborate further on the fun because of YT rules.
Except it actually is a gun. It falls into the legal category of a gun, and also don't forget that the British have a whole series of amateur gun clubs up and down the country where the firearms are all referred to as guns. They are, in fact guns. Just because an instructor gets his underwear in a twist doesn't mean he's right.
@@AG9229 In the army its a rifle, personal weapon, or gat. But not a gun. Of course once youre in reg no one really cares, youll just sound stupid.
@@NotAllBooksSmellNice really? So the army's word is law is it?
I used the SA80.. royal green jackets 1999... never had any issues with it . Keep it oiled. Never broke .great rifle
I did like the rate of fire for this one. Seems really stable and easy to control the amount of rounds let off before trigger release
Excellent video. The really important question is how the regular army accepted the weapon when it was so clearly defective. Territorials, who had to qualify APWT to receive the bounty quickly realised the issues but were dismissed as unprofessional STABS by the "professionals".
"This is a legitimate A1 rifle because the buttplate has... broken off." I just spat my drink.
I wish he'd review the LSW variant just for giggles. If he already had then awesome!
PenguinzFTW too true, another piece on British engineering excellence.
I just came from playing game called Squad realizing how well made and recorded sounds in that game are. It's just incredible.
I shivered a little with that right hand mag load.
Meanwhile in New Zealand the army has decided to completely replace the existing AUG A1 service rifles with an AR platform, while the Australians upgraded all of theirs to AUG A3s. How the NZDF got the money for this complete replacement I have no idea, but I suspect there is a bit of backroom bureaucracy involved.
CasInbound The NZDF's order to replace their entire stock of rifles was for less than 10,000 units.
9000+ angry Kiwis going full-auto is more than enough to convince most people to gtfo their island.
Omar Dumbrell The AUGs were more than capable of doing that. Considering our closest ally is also using an AUG platform it would have made more sense to stick with them and simply get upgrade kits, but for some reason they decided to buy a completely different rifle that requires different training.
CasInbound probably the deciding factor was compatability with their new designated marksmen rifles made by the same company.It makes sense to not have to train soldiers to use two completly different rifles.Plus if you do an image search of Aussie troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, half the time they're carrying ARs.Diggers I've spoken to who actually used the Austeyr in combat had a pretty low opinion of it.
But why though?
The Steyr system's awesomeness is supposed to be that it's an lsw, a dmr, a rifle, a carbine, an smg you can convert to 9mm if you get bored with .223.All we really need now is a pink one for the lady soldiers and a multicam tacticool edition with a bottle opener and an iphone charger. ;)
At the end when he was firing it, the ejection of the spent casing seemed fairly weak, compared to an AR15 platform. Is this typical with this rifle? It looked as if the charging handle was going to stovepipe a casing a couple of times.
Ian, thank you for doing these videos on the SA80 series. Even though it's right-handed & bullpup, how do you rate the L85 A2 overall now you've had a chance to put a few rounds through it?
Wow!!! That updated case kicker charging handle really works!!! In the high-speed shot it looks like it flexes a lot. I hope it is reinforced to prevent fatigue failures.
Can really see the utility of the changed charging handle. The deflector works amazing.
I do like the handguard on the A1 but damn the A2 is just far superior. It might not be the best rifle but the British forces have done great things with them.
Just imagine if they'd gone and adopted an AR180 instead: would've been a more reliable platform, and modernized Ar180s would be epic.
Sedan57Chevy that would have been epic!
Sedan57Chevy XD
Sedan57Chevy well there has been an upgraded ar180 and it flopped...terribly
Sedan57Chevy also isn't the ar180 just a civilan version of an ar18? correct me if I'm wrong
The Howa Type 89 is the improved AR-18.
Forgot your forward assist when cocking m8
Frankly, I just wish I could get my hands on one someday. Perfectly fine with it being semi-auto version. I know that's a pipe dream.
The Armed forces were still using the A1 variant for training purposes when I left service in 2010. In my last Weapon Handling test I had to manually pull out a spent cartridge and re-cock the weapon 7 times. Amazing I passed really
It's the most shitiest weapon I've ever known (and had the displeasure of using - Back in the late 80's when I was in the TA Infantry) .
I bet the Lee Enfield was never 'upgraded' like the *SA80* back in my dads day, nor the *SLR* , which was introduced while my dad was in service and received with just as much enthusiasm as the *SA80* . But the difference between the three weapons is the *SA80* is the only one which needed, and *STILL* needs many upgrades and improvements before it will be fit for purpose.
I believe the move to the *SA80* was due to the theatre of engagement changed from open warfare to *FIBUA* . It would be very hard to swing an *SLR* round a doorway to engage the enemy compared to doing the same with an *SA80*
The A3 is much better, A2 isn't bad either.
I carried the L85A2 in both Iraq & Afghanistan, If Iraq was uneventful (Telic 13 was the last & we handed responsibility to US forces on leaving) Afghanistan was not & I had frequent opportunity to experience the 2-way range during which I never had any issues and found it a effective weapon with which to kill the enemy. Oh BTW I too was TA Infantry.
@@rikwilliams6352 I have to admit, my experience with the SA-80 is bias due to only having little contact with it over the SLR and hearing the storied of it's early life in the Army of being a total disaster, being bade of 'plastic' and melting in certain conditions. And it's constant jamming.
I was in 4 WFR C Coy in 1988 - 92 as it was just being re-badged from 2 Mercian, in Shirley, Solihull. I've seen on Google Maps that the building we used is no more and the area has now completely changed :-(
Uh... the Lee-Enfield was *definitely* upgraded ike the SA80 was. The 1907 upgrades, which was the "big fix" for the Lee-Enfield, consisted of: New Loading mechanism, new magazines, new front stock, new sights, and a redesigned chamber. Never mind the constant iterative upgrades that where made to the weapon system.
@@dernwine Thank you for the lesson on the Lee-Enfield. I didn't realise it went through the same revamping as the SA-80.
When I was given the A1, I hated it...but looked after properly, it was a very handy weapon and a decent work horse....the A2 is an excellent service rifle, i know from experience. Its all in the training, as well as the kit and british soldiers always make things work.
Warm weather testing on the A2 in Kuwait showed that it had one stoppage every 25’000 of live ammunition as that was all it was tested with both high and quality ammo unlike the A1
*lists off every part of the gun* "Other than that it was good to go" lol
I remember we had the A1 in training. The firing pins definitely did break and I also had a gas plug break on mine
I love these videos but I would have got my arse kicked if I had kept calling my rifle a gun!!!!
i know its a yr ago u posted this but i used to call mine a Gat lol didnt go down well with the ruperts lol.
@@BRUM9922 I went to the armory and asked for my gun (which was the Sterling SMG at that time)......when the NCO's started that ****, I showed them what was stamped on the receiver:
GUN
SUB MACHINE
9mm
L2A3
It may be your rifle but it's my gun ;)
Actually there is now an L85A3 Rifle being tested by some units in the uk right now.
As stated in the video, the A3 is just a new upper reciever on a A2.
Barrel changes too
@@darkiee69 It's really not. UK soldier here. Brand new sight, flash eliminator, front rail, picatinny rails, polymer mags (He used one of these in the shooting segment) and a few other bits and bobs. Google l85a3 to see pictures of the new version. It's still a bit arse heavy but as someone who has used one in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as exercises and ranges for 11 years, it's a fine weapon and served me well. In fact in 11 years I've only ever had one stoppage!
@@keffa1982 one of the other big changes to the A3 is the gas block has now been put underneath making it easier to hold for cqb
@@sunnycat69 Unlikely. They're not going to spend hundreds of millions of pounds improving the L85, only to ditch it a few years later. The design is sound, it just needed an experienced gun-maker to sort the details. Buying guns from other countries is not the answer, just ask America and their refusal of the FAL.
I was tasked w/ running the Harley Davidson Military Motorcycle Trials w/ the MOD in '91- 92, as I was there setting up a dealership repair shop in Dorking, county Surrey... They were still SA 80's then, and holy batshit, the squaddies hated those bastard things! All motorcycles had to have a carrier for this bullpup, and Harley was the only bike that had a fully enclosed scabbard. The early scabbard was canvas, and later a vacuum formed plastic unit. I still remember another manufacturer had an open clip-on gun mount w/ the muzzle pointing up, next to the rear tire... Jeebuz wept when the weapon was removed from the mount and test fired after a trip through the woods, on dirt roads. Need I say more............................
This whole series was fantastic. I know it may not be 'Forgotten' but it's nice to have someone with Ian's level of technical explanation discuss it!
how come these videos are hidden.. kinda?
Because they are not quite finalized yet.
Forgotten Weapons thanks, at any rate good videos! finalised or not :) the cadet rifle video takes me back.
I used the A1 for many years in the Royal Engineers never had a problems
That's probably because you were using it as a lever and a hammer and not a weapon!
Thank you. I will have my old Belgian FN back please. Reliable and very powerful.
great series about the SA80! the only thing i am missing is some more information about the SUSAT (reticle, corrections, manufacturer,...)
SUSAT has a large triangle in the middle and range and windage adjustments are dials on the sight. As for who made it, I dont know
This is a link to a newspaper article from 2002, which is based on interviews with members of the trials and procurement teams for the rifle.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/oct/10/military.jamesmeek
A paragraph from that article:
An officer who trialled the weapon throughout the 80s argues that, fundamentally, the SA80 was not a bad design, and that the SLR, too, had its faults. "Of course, the previous weapon is the best ever, and the weapon you're going to get is wonderful, and what you've got now is absolute crap. This is typical squaddie talk. Even at its worst, the SA80 was twice as good as the weapon it replaced."
I remember fitting butt plates with steel inserts to the A1 around 1991. The sling loop used to pull through the soft butt plate sometimes but mostly they completely failed because the grunts would graunch the screws in as hard as they could going all the way through.
I have to say that I fired many thousands of rounds on ranges and can't remember any problems. Most of the external flimsy shit would break off easily but not while firing and most of that got modified over time. I can't help thinking that the H&K modifications were expensive tinkering. I didn't use it in hot sandy conditions though; that could be very significant.
Ha ha I remember making sling loops from welding rod and the attaching them to plates to alleviate the "pulling" out problem. That was in NI in 90-91
Couple of points:
On the firing selector R stands for (single) Round, at least, that's what we were taught. Don't know if it had another meaning, officially, but that's what we were taught.
You also observed in the L85A1 video that the safety was placed relatively ergonomically, but it also had a second benefit: it removed the trigger finger from the trigger when making the switch to ready, thus helping reduce negligent discharges. Also, the placement for making safe, if you used the right hand, meant reaching forward with the thumb which tended to mean you had to release your grip and again remove the trigger finger from the trigger.
As for the firing pins failing, I did have mine fail and that was as someone who only ever used theirs on range practices/training, being a support unit, aka REMF, and so very limited usage. Dread to think how many front line soldiers went through, especially out in the field.
I believe the R on the fire selector stood for repetition
Wish they'd release an L85 civilian legal rifle for the US gun market, it's a neat looking rifle and I've got British ancestry.
A. C. Most Americans do
Yeah the SA80 ain’t light well at least not for me BUT then again I’m only in cadets and 14 but my elbows do hurt after some drill with it
Another class video. No one like you on UA-cam. Superb sir.
You Sir, are an excellent historian, orator and demonstrator of weaponry. Well-bloody done.
I think I remember hearing something that the A1 was so bad that some units were given the old L1A1 SLRs as replacements until the A2 was ready.
Your off hand handling is really impressive Ian. !!
Superb video, thank you. BTW I'm a 1991 veteran and carried the LSW version of the A1.
I am a little confused that he thinks Enfield had no experience of making weapons. Enfield have been building weapons since 1807. It produced perhaps the greatest rifle of all time the Lee Enfield SMLE as well as the Henry Martini and the FN SLR.
I think it was designing weapons which was the point. What had Enfield actually 'designed' which was successfully adopted since the SLR? In any case, virtually all British weapons up to that point were based on foreign developments, Martini (which also had big problems fo detail build and design when first introduced)-Swiss, Lee-US, Bren-Czech, they were good at adaptation and inspired lateral thinking. But after getting the EM2 dissed actual new design seems to have been a rarity.
As someone who's in the British forces who didn't know much about these rifles and the differences, I thank you.
It's given me a much better appreciation and understanding of them. I'd heard the A1s were useless but that's before my time. With my experience of the A2, I've had no issues. Never had or seen an unexpected stoppage. Although I have had a couple of the butt pads disintegrate on me, I guess they're still made out of cheese and I once had to take a rifle back to the armourers in two pieces because one of the receiver pins had become stuck.
Next time I shoot I'll try to grab one with an A3 upper. 👌
Looks like you visited the UK on the one day it wasn't raining! Lucky you!
A1: lots of problems
A2: same Problems but now there’s a guard around the mag release so now there’s a slightly lower chance of your mag flooring itself in a fire fight
Anthony Swiss I have a friend who went through training for the army and when they were doing weapon training every time they went prone the mage you just drop out
Anthony Swiss it’s an awful rifle that is more dangerous to its user than what it’s pointing at but I would t have it any other way. I love the l85 and no other gun will take its place in my hear
Completely wrong. The mag catch guard was added to the A1 shortly after it was introduced (they certainly had them in 1990 when I first started using them). The A2 was completely reworked. 90% of the working parts were re-designed and it is now one of the most reliable rifles out there. The only real remaining issues are the weight and the right hand only thing.
Put 6 mags through an A1 lsw in support role then had to switch to single round and cocking it every time as the firing pin had chipped. The gold days when you had to carry a spare for almost every part when using an lsw