how long until we don’t need limiters anymore?
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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I'm not limiting for loudness, I just don't like too much headroom, I like the feeling of things glued together.
The only challenging part of mastering is how loud can you push your mix without destroying your sound.
Also the constant assumption that your music will only/always be consumed by normalized streaming services rubs me the wrong way. I buy most of my music from Bandcamp and Beatport for example, no normalization. Then there's live music to consider which is particularly relevant for electronic music, no normalization. Sure there's a volume knob but you can only really go as loud as the true peaks with that anyway, average loudness over time is still relevant. I dare you to try fit a dubstep song mastered to -40LUFS in that mix...
@@fiachnaodonnell7895 True, I love Bandcamp and as you said, it sucks that other live services are "fixing" your mix for you.
Loudness is a part of an artist, artistic work, it tells about the artist's characteristics.
@@fiachnaodonnell7895 100%
@@fiachnaodonnell7895 fax
@@deadlyrobot5179 I agree with you on the part that streaming services shouldn't change how the track sounds. However that's not what loudness normalization does. It just turns the whole track's volume down to match the perceived level of others, or more precisely, a loudness target like -14 lufs. It's just like adjusting the volume knob before the track starts.
I understand why you'd think that as the related terminology is so sloppy. One says loudness and they could be talking about dynamic range or peak levels, though this is inaccurate at best... and if you go to the settings of your TV and turn on "volume normalization" it's just a very bad sounding compressor. So yeah, I don't blame you.
I'd personally have to agree with the many comments arguing to just give a song what it needs. Some songs just sound fantastic overly loud and squashed. Others definitely need a lot of dynamic range. I think a tool such as a limiter can always prove itself useful, given the right context. If it sounds good, it is good.
They sound fantastic becaus ethe mix and the song is good - DESPITE being squashed and overly loud. Not because of it. Like a supermodel with pimples. Despite, not because of. Common hobbyist mistake.
@@techreviewz87 cool story bro , let me know when your next 'pro' banger drops, yeah?
@@KonJonnorMusic I'm not in music production. I work for a label. These are the jokes Mastering Engineers tell me, when they laugh about hobby nerds such as you :)
@@techreviewz87 ah makes sense, you get told what to think. Labels are dying, and for good reason! Full of sheep like yourself! 😆
Forget streaming loudness standards.
Give the song what it needs.
More dynamic does not necessarily mean better.
+1 some music literally is not written to have dynamic range, wall of sound etc, so why would engineers try to make it so it does
Are the people who're considering lowering these numbers chugging down beer through their ears or are they suffering from tinnitus?
I’ve got to say I mastered a song of mine to -14 lufs then released it on streaming platforms based on your video explaining why it’s good to do that and I was not satisfied with how it sounded. It just sounded weak in comparison to other songs on Spotify. I know now that that was due to a lack of compression and limiting in the mix but now I aim for between -12 and -9 lufs because that gives me the sound I want and I don’t notice the fact that the songs get turned down. I think you should do a video explaining why limiting the proper amount before setting the lufs volume is important because I got the wrong idea from your previous video explaining this and I’m sure other people have too.
Yeah, the loudness wars have changed.
Now it's not "How loud can you make this shit on a meter" it's more "How fat and loud sounding (perceived level) can you make this track without detriment when level matched" - honestly, I'm loving where we're at, the main problem is lack of standardisation across platforms on the distributors end.
By the way... 2 Bus processing isn't 'mastering' (sounds condescending, but genuinely. If you're a young producer, get a taster from a pro end guy. Mastering engineers aren't just slapping limiters on for level, it's an art. If you don't follow what I'm saying, you don't master, you process the 2 bus).
Imo, caring about loudness nowadays (at least for streaming) more than as a rough measurement for getting your sound "in the ballpark" is a mistake.
The problems come when you sacrifice quality to chase some number on a screen, and this goes both ways. If you make a track -4 lufs purely for the sake of loudness, it will sound too squashed. If you make a track -14lufs purely to match a target, it will likely sound too open, not glued, etc. So if you happen to create a great sounding track that sounds best to you at -8, what's the problem? There is no inherent "penalty" to having your track turned down to MATCH the others. Because you made it louder there is less headroom and less transient energy, but that is a decision you made, presumably because it sounds good. So again, what is the downside?
This is why I hate the term "loudness penalty". It totally misses the point of loudness normalization, which is to empower creators to care less about the loudness, and more about the SOUND.
Dude no real commercial track is at -14 haha they are all at like -10 to -8! Watch real mixing engineers talk about this like Jon Castelli! He literally talks about how he aims for -10 LUFS but sometimes his tracks get to -8. -14 is the biggest load of bullshit I don’t know where it started and why the streaming services themselves keep mentioning it. Measure the tracks literally streaming straight from Spotify and they all are higher than -14 lol.
@@boylocosv yeah I had to figure that one out the hard way.
@@boylocosv The streaming services mention it, because it's a threshold for quality.
If a track is -2.0 Dbfs and -14 LUFS, it's 100% the codecs and stuff 100% won't distort or fuck with the sound. Anything above is a gamble. (Usually a gamble worth taking, because it might sound good, whereas -14 usually definitely won't sound good)
Is that mic stand adjustable? My neck hurts just watching this
Fantastic video. I never thought of this before.
You should have.
@@HOLLASOUNDS you speak truth
I hate the sound of overly dynamic mixes/and or masters.....have it too quiet and you can't hear the sustain in lower level sounds, have it too loud and the transients are painful and could damage your ear drums. It's so annoying that these boomers are trying to force their old ass opinions onto the newer generation of music (specifically Ian Sheppard, f*ck that guy....he's the reason these companies imposed loudness restrictions on DSPs). Music from before the loudness era sounds so shit and weak compared to the more dense stuff.
hahah boomers, well its indeed opinionforcing. maybes much more dynamic indeed does not sound better but these older guys really have just become ignorant about it and act as if its an objective truth.
-8 LUFS is perfect for streaming platforms my songs get released through a label on most major streaming platforms and have had no difference in sound quality. -14 LUFS is not accurate at all and should not be used as loudness "standard" for spoify. A good example is dubstep artists, if you check the loudness in your DAW youll see most dubstep songs sit at -6 to -4 LUFS with next to no dynamics and it makes no difference on spotify. You can argue they make separate versions of the song for each streaming platform but nobody has time to make 10 different versions for each platform its unrealistic. Instead dont limit your creative possibilities because of a number, If it sounds good it will be good.
also, that music sounds like crap, and will never go anywhere :) lol...
When playing in clubs you want the tracks to be as loud as possible without peaking over 0db. Of course in a perfect venue with perfect sound systems you can turn up the volume but in shittier ones the tracks hit way harder when limited hard.
Secondly not everyone has the loudness normalisation feature turned on. When turned off, quieter mastered tracks sound so weak that there is an incredibly high possibility of not converting the listener into a fan.
@@Leviathan-mj8gi So you claim That when all Tracks aren’t limited meaning they peak around -14 Lufs there is no considerable loss in energy whatsoever compared to a -9lufs master?
@@Leviathan-mj8gi I’ve played in plenty of venues where the output gain is as high as I can go without clipping the mixer. In that situation, a track at -8LUFS is going to sound a whole lot louder than a track at -14LUFS.
@@Leviathan-mj8gi What are you talking about? Bring a limiter? Buy a better amp? I’m talking about volume differences between tracks. If all your tracks are sitting around a similar loudness, and one track is a few db quieter you will clearly see the loss of energy on a dance floor.
@@Leviathan-mj8giI thought we’d been through this… but often you don’t have extra headroom on the mixer. I don’t understand what the problem is with making sure your music fits in its genre.
@@Leviathan-mj8gi I was simply suggesting that you don’t want your mix to sound quieter than the rest of your genre if you want DJs to play it. I didn’t say anything about limiting it to mush.
i don't think it's a myth that limiting has always been about more than just loudness. even gain-matched your masters without a limiter will feel like they're missing something. we use compressors for timbre and to shape the dynamics. limiters can absolutely have the same effect because in the end they are just high-ratio compressors, for a practical example turn the threshold on your limiter way down over the top so you're getting a solid 9-12db gain reduction and just tinker with the release time and realise how changing the release time is completely changing the way the track breathes. my fav digital limiters atm are the waves series that let you prioritise certain bands for gain reduction and adjust release times on a multiband level, almost like an partial eq for how the limiter is activated. l316 and l3-LL are the ones i remember the name of off the top of my head. a color limiter like that is the final sauce on a master for me.
have you ever observed that music sounds different over the radio, it's because they have to run it through another limiter by law with a set of parameters in a certain guideline, and that gives it that 'radio sound'
perfect recipe to destroy your mixes. Keep going :)
Is really anyone caring about that? I feel like everybody is mastering as before. And songs still seem to be different loud.
Check anti negative for example or other extreme loud artists.
Correct me if in wrong..
to understand limiting, one needs to hear the actual harm any limiter does to a signal by adding distortion. Also, the spread of release, how it grooves with the music. Once you have the habit of feeling the song, the sound quality of the limiter, and the Delta value, it's going to be less of a "mystery" or "trickery". Sonible Smart Limit is great, so is FabFilter L2, but to use them both properly these things need to be practiced and understood.
LUFS is forced limitation to creative process.
#cancelLUFS
Of course limiter isn't just for loudness it's artistic choice to make it sound what's considered to be these days a "modern" sound and even if streaming service turns it down by 30dB if it doesn't use limiter to do that but just lowers the level transparently people will still use limiters to push things past -8RMS at least with EDM and Rock and other loud genres because it will get the quiet and loud part closer and quiet parts will sound louder also some people prefer that large sound even if it isn't the most dynamic sound.
I don't think it's good or bad it's the producers choice but what I think is good that people will sacrifice the quality of sound for loudness less and less, because at least people even if they choose to use limiter will use it only to a point where it's beneficial for the sound not just make it loud and that's important I don't think it's good idea to strictly follow any standard because they are constantly changing, but using limiters musically, for subtle glue, more impact is the way to go nowadays which is very fortunate that it's again about the music itself not the loudness to fool our ears for few minutes and then end up with headache, but for more sustainable longer and more enjoyable listening sessions.
Multiplier. Any thoughts on Baphometrix's opinion that true peak limiting is a moot point. Given most modern DACs won't create audible distortion and lossless FLAC streaming will likely soon become ubiquitous. Interested to hear your opinion?
I don't think mastering limiters will be going anywhere tbh. They have a sound that people are familiar with (rightly or wrongly). You also have to factor in that people still buy music and don't just stream it, so producers are still going to want their track that little bit louder than the one you've just played. Hence why releases are still coming out above -8LUFS regardless of Spotifys -14 LUFS.
not every producer "is still going to want his track that little bit louder than the one you've just played"... it just seems pointless now
@@danielweirdone You're probably right, but I suspect a vast majority will. If you play some owned tracks that are all mastered to -8 LUFS and you set your volume to the right level, then you play a track at -14 LUFS, it's just going to sound weaker. The average punter won't know the reason why it sounds weaker, they'll just know they've got to get up and turn the volume up.
Also, if you're releasing a track at -14 or lower, then you're going to be using very little compression in the mix stage as well, or the track will be louder than -14 before it gets to mastering. Compression in mixing adds energy to the track, thicker drums, bass, vocals etc. If you don't use any, you're removing energy. You'll have a very dynamic track, but it'll lack impact compared to a track with less dynamics, that's been turned down to the same overall volume. It's genre specific too. Rock, pop, EDM etc, needs energy and impact, jazz, folk and classical, not so much.
Your voice is super boomy in that space.
2 minutes saying that in the future we wont need limiters just to make an ad about an AI limiter is a bit weird
Its dumb to not limit at all. Usually your will have too much dynamics in your tracks an they will sound small and whimsy on spotify. Go the happy medium and master to -9 peak. thats plenty dynamic.
LMAO, that is definitely not a happy medium. That' the noob's / nerd's way of mastering too hot. The standards are there for a reason, and mastering engineers tell you to use them for a reason.
What system would you like to see replace inter grated LUFS? Also, does this mean the end of the loudness wars? Recently saw that my favourite macabees album was brickwalled, particularly on spit it out.
What do you mean by Brickwalled? You mean over compressed?
@@HOLLASOUNDS Basically means the waveform looks exactly the same from start to end, filled maxed out in volume. Just imagine 99-100% of a song capped at 0dB
@@neek01 Ahhhh I see, not sure why I still dont get the commen terms after 15 years producing.
Loudness wars ended 8 years ago. Did you just discover Spotify in 2022, lmao?
Man there are still artists on Spotify that are louder then those exteem loud dubstep tracks and stuff ...like really, really, really, really.... reeeaaaaalllly ...loud.
i did some comperisons today with normal loud tracks, mp3's from normal tracks downloaded from beatport and cd or what ever ..from 6 or even 4 rms.
And this artist on Spotify today was even louder!
I thought what the heck ...how !?
Maybe it's still not leveld (turned down) if you turn of normalization in the spotify options...i don't know ...i thought share it.
I also can post the artist name here and link, but i do not now if that's allowed and very polite.
Cheers.
I would love to know it! And I think the community here will too. So please feel free to do so. :)
If you turn the damn feature off it won't work dummy
@@visionsfromgn-z1157 Wel it's that guy that this evening gives a workshop at Dawnation man haha ..TYNAN.
So if your interessted,.. i think he's gonna show quite some tricks i think.
..i checked again and really loud ass f$#7, just like the loudest mp3's pushed to the limit.
But think it works for all artist.
You can still just change normalization and loudness in the settings easy peazy and nothing special after all...also on Soundcloud you can push it if you want,,
its 8 rms,.. but somtimes they are not turning it down.
If you just mix , and mix , and upload and upload till the mix works.
Sometimes noyt leaving 1 db headroom and even upload mp3 on there sounds beter,...just try every time...and listen.
I am not saying it's good or bad and you should buy yeah..
you asked for it and there are no rules..just preferences and taste.
Hell even that Izotope Ozone can hold you back when you take it too serious..
Allthough it is really helpfull, just try diferent things and playback souces.
I think that and reference tracks and sound design and selection od sounds still is the inportent here..
Reference from the start is the trick here.
But a good 8 rms track i think is just in the middle of dynamics, punch, bass wide top end not sacrificing too much..less distorted on headphones when played loud.
(But less blasting trough speakers in the car)
And and sounds best most of the time Sometimes even louder.
Also keep in mind that some songs and genres sound better squashed then normalized then they would if you leave the dynamic range. the mix is an insanely important part of mastering. if everything is wildly dynamic before you start to master, you will have the hardest time getting your song to meet the loudness levels you want and have it sound good. For example, in hiphop and trap, you want your kick loud. if you just turn it up, it will over work your limiters and distort your song. but if you keep it quiet, it will lose its punch and wont stand out. so compressing your kick and eqing certain bands that help it stand out before you send it to your master will help achieve what you want.
Dude i like your attitude a lot more on your new videos. Extremely soothing and refreshing. Thx for your knowledge.
This is very off topic but does anyone know of any really good mic stands that won’t fall or slide down with quite a bit of weight on them?
Dan Warrel has much better loudness coverage, and isn't misleading his audience to aim for silly targets like -14. The vast majority of pop music will sound better at louder levels, and the platforms simply turn you down. Make your music sound as good as you can without worrying about LUFS, then just check that you are OVER the minimum for the platform.
Dan Worrall himself has uploaded a track playing at +2.3 LUFS on Spotify,
I don't think that even he knows what Spotify and other services are actually "turning down"/doing to the Audio, IF they actually do anything.
silly? Maybe google Integrated versus short term?
@@techreviewz87 Intergated!
Very interesting
Even though I make aggressive hard rock/metal type stuff, whenever I put anything but the mildest of compression on my master bus I always hate what it does and I end up taking it off. I've never used a limiter. I hate that "cramped" feeling you get. It doesn't make things feel more aggressive to me, it actually makes things sound smaller. Like a sort of angry chihuahua.
+1
As Glenn Fricker says: ~"You don't need to compress heavy guitars more, they're already compressed enough."
Dynamic range is everything for the other elements because we have these really "fat sausages" in our mixes for everything else to compete with. So compression in favour of Dynamics is to be applied to everything else. At least that's how I avoid the angry chihuahua effect lol
Right you do not need a limiter on the master cuz you can clip it. If you ain't redlining u ain't headlining
Everyone is NOT following these standards because it sounds weak AF
MAstering engineers do. But google integrated versus momentary loudness, so you get a better understanding.
@@techreviewz87 no, we definitely do not. we do what is best for the song, not for a spotify algorithm. deadly robot put it nicely
This is madness, it's about how you feel, what genre song in and etc. All this is stylistic choices, LUFS don't have anything with creative process.
LUFS is EVIL.. (sad to see that AI taking over, I remember times when UA-cam had no normalization and that's was best times.)
Loudness will decrease
*Laughs in producer/mixing engineer*
U look like ur medicated lol, I remember back in the day you were super ADHD
Love the vid👍
@Trent Kozelek who knows... Stimulants arouse people without adhd greatly.. but he could also gave in to the negative comments
@Trent Kozelek you better be joking :)
What about DJ's playing music live?
Don't use a limiter, use a saturator!
I've been confused af for years because of this: all i see is "streaming platforms" limits to -14, etc, etc, but go check the loudness of a song in spotify, tidal, etc and its going all the way up to -8 in some songs, like, I don't get it, whered u get that info, tracks are getting played at -8
go up to -8 that is the momentary oudness. There is also short term and integrated. Teh standards are for Integrated loudness, including your intro, breaks and everything.
@@techreviewz87 woah make sense thankyou
While I think the limiters won't go away in the near future, sound or music is definitely going to be "revolutionised" soon. In the end, quality ALWAYS wins.
You didnt mention the dj and club situation where loudnesswar is still a thing imo. What du you think about that?
Catch you on the plipady flip. Not sure what that means but I find the peak loudness and compression to get there very annoying to be honest.
Netflix reference doesn’t mean much. It’s the same for say audible. Music isn’t the same as a movie. If you have loads of just speaking with no music if you had this at -14 it feels weird, the space between dialogue is too loud. But of course you are then going to have action scenes etc so you need more dynamic range in a film 2h than you would in a 3min song.
Netflix is movie standards - like every movie you watch. It is very important.
could you speak normal. hate the whispering asmr stuff
Everyone told him he was speaking too fast and crazy b4 💀💀 man cant catch a break
@@xandy9727 tbh i like the relaxing style
@@wondir69 agreed
You can always leave this channel of you "hate" it. Please let us all enjoy the videos. :)
WTF is ASMR speak english lol!