The TRUTH about Box and Papers - Buying and Selling Watches
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- Links to Chrono24 - bit.ly/2YAedYW
Rolex Submariner - bit.ly/30PmL0R
Omega Speedmaster - bit.ly/2CcuI61
Rolex GMT Master II Pepsi - bit.ly/3egD0Id
Cartier Santos 2656 - bit.ly/2C3O4db
How important are box and papers? - This is one of the many neverending debates that we have in the watch world. It's neverending because answers are always based on people's opinions on the importance of box and papers when buying and selling pre-owned watches.
The guys over at Chrono24 have shared some data, facts on the topic of Box and Papers. This data shows how much more watches cost with box and papers. Watches like the Rolex Submariner, Rolex GMT Master II Pepsi and Omega Speedmaster.
How important are box and papers to you when buying watches?
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Links to Chrono24 - bit.ly/2YAedYW
Rolex Submariner - bit.ly/30PmL0R
Omega Speedmaster - bit.ly/2CcuI61
Rolex GMT Master II Pepsi - bit.ly/3egD0Id
Cartier Santos 2656 - bit.ly/2C3O4db
I have seen so many grade A clone watches with cloned movements (even an expert may be fooled with naked eyes). Fake papers and boxes selling for genuine price. I never ever looked at second hand/ grey market ever since. i wonder how many franken watches/ cloned watches there are circulating in the market out there.
yeah... if you want warraty, ownership and want to sell them one day...
Definitely a lot I'm saddened to say. I'm extremely careful, even when dealing with people that I've known for years . Baring a long term relationship with someone I've known for a long time , I tend to stick to an AD .
Great content, and good advice.
Cheers Paul.
Hey Adrian thanks so much for this video, it really took a lot of doubt of my shoulders! My best regards from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mx.
I like what Breitling is doing with the digital ownership certificate. If they do it correctly, those will be much harder to duplicate.
That’s a very good point.
Agreed - this is probably the future for all makers.
Junkers does the QR code on the back of their watches as well.
I agree 100%, the fact in 2020 every watch from a Casio to a Patek doesn't come with digital ownership/registration makes me think there is something rotten in the state of Denmark. I'm being very cynical in assuming that expensive watches are great for international money laundering purposes and addressing this in a meaningful way with input from the big players would cut the new buy market off at the knees has nothing to do with it.
@@stueyx I am not sure I would go that far, but I know for high dollar jewelry purchases, most people jump from one country to another to avoid tax. This would eliminate that loophole, so it would impact sales.
In my opinion the most important thing about having B&P is that it makes it less likely that the watch was stolen. Of course it's not impossible that even a "full set" could be taken in a home burglary - but that must be a less common scenario.
for me its the most important reason to have box and paper, the watch could’ve been lost or stolen
Can everybody drink a shot when Adrian says 'Box and papers' please? I'm drunk already... 🥃
Haha. 🍻
😂😂😂👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Great comment Mr Chow!
Remi ds me off a game we used to 'play' - whilst watching an episode of Dallas, if a character has a drink, you have a drink. Pissed in an hour! 🍷
i feel like without box and papers, im missing the complete package. So when im spending thousands on a watch i want the whole thing.
Correct! That’s part of the fun!
So many rolex's with no papers its kind of tainted the brand a little for me. So many rolex's have no history.
Depends on how many specimen of that watch are available, how rare it is in this condition
It's often cheaper to buy rolex without papers though :p
Buy from an Italian dealer. They got all the boxes and papers you need.
I’ve heard a saying - “Focus on buying the dealer and not just the watch!”. In a “fluid” collection this would be key for me, because a dealers reputation would help trace provenance and ensure overall condition!
Great video Adrian, very enjoyable that. From a retailers viewpoint I always sensed the less the customer knew about watches and what he was potentially buying, the more important B&P were to him. The more experienced and the more informed buyers were (IMHO) rightly more concerned about condition. The most astute buyers of all, would show immense patience whilst trying to achieve both. Was very pleased to hear you say that condition is the most important thing to you, as for me that's a good message to spread. Cheers.
Thanks for watching Paul and I appreciate you mentioning the video in yours. 🍻
Paul Thorpe Watch Dealer could not agree more ! (And I’m still a rookie who looked for b&p)
I just wanna say, your intro music is one of the best. Love it.
Good video. Thanks. I went looking for a 2531.80 Bond and made sure it had the papers. Boxes for those old Omegas are generally toasted now because of the cheap pleather so if you find a perfect box, its likely just a repro. I found a new timber Omega box which is lovely.. yes it doesnt match but nicer for display.
Yes. The more expensive the more important it is
WTS: Casio F-91W WITH box and papers - $2000
Steven Yoo 😂😂😂😂
Such a great video! Very insightful! Appreciate this.
The one that gets me is a nearly new watch without box or papers. That’s just odd and doesn’t fill me with confidence about the purchase. Yet you do see it quite a bit.
I’ve figured out the answer to that, a friend had his watch stolen and insurance company took box and papers from him. I’ve always presumed new watched without box and papers are insurance jobs
they couldve bought it from a grey market dealer.
JahoyDahoy exactly
I've heard that some don't include box or papers due to being purchased outside of the country (buyer leaves the box and papers to avoid paying tax).
Perhaps the seller is a flipper and or the AD is knowingly selling to flippers. In which case hiding providence is hiding the shady dealing but not illegal.
Great video once again Adrian, very informative and helpful. Thank you
To add to having the papers and receipt especially to specific buyers is knowing if you’re getting the watch straight from the first owner. Ben Clymer himself said he prefers knowing exactly where or who the watch came from and the story behind it. Getting a watch from the first owner gives you that “value”. Great video mate!
Thank you for an interesting discussion Adrian. I never really cared about box and papers (favouring the lower price) but I think I will start to look for papers as well 😊👍
There’s something so appealing about the neo-vintage era Rolex boxes & papers
As always, an excellent and informative video
That's actually a good video.
I'm proud of your growth.
Thanks a lot Aaman 👍🏻
For me it's about authenticity, and importantly also, the authenticity of the seller. It's rare in my opinion to have a watch like a Rolex originating within the last ten years that doesn't have its warranty card, box less so but also a factor. These are both good tools to have when deciding that the individual selling that watch obtained it genuinely, as well as it being genuine. Buyers of these watches generally appreciate that disposing of these items would be foolish, even a receipt would be helpful. Older, vintage watches, it's a nice to have but far more understandable when not present. As an owner of a Rolex gold sub that was ripped from my wrist after a savage beating in the centre of Barcelona a few years back, I can tell you that piece is making its way around the market without its papers now (I still have them) and if and when that piece gets its first Rolex service, it's current owner may well regret the lack of papers.
When you however have a watch you bought without box and papers and then want to sell it again or box and papers were lost through bad luck when moving home, then that does not constitute a character reference. Throwing them away would be foolish indeed. But their absence can be caused by many things.
Nice to see facts and figures on this subject thanks Adrian.
Extremely helpful! Thank you!
Another great video Adrian enjoyed watching it.
Cheers Andrew 👍🏻
Great video to show the stats, thanks for sharing that.
A, I always enjoy your finesse between sponsorship/opinions, got to make a living.
Great video mate. Spot on. And nice to see the Tobermory mug, their peated drop, Ledaig, is a fave.
Thanks for watching mate. Their 12 year old single malt is my favourite so far. 👍🏻
Great video! I spend 5 years in Dubai and it was normal practice that the locals would throw away everything except the watch, platinum, gold links included they bought to keep and obviously did care about the rest. Keep up the great video’s 👍
I put aside $1 every time he said "box and papers" and now I have enough to buy my first luxury watch. Cheers!
Your enthusiasm for watches is infectious, I’ve just bought my first luxury watch, an Omega Seamaster professional 300M in blue, I love it
Congrats Tony. And that’s a solid choice!
Very informative video. Thank you
Congrats on the sponsorship: it’s well deserved. I think the video was very good and summarises extremely well what many of us perceive and experience 🙂
I’m Alex S
solid contents, nice to watch. also nice that you got sponsored by Chrono !
Would like to see a percentage on the mistakes & missing text ( exact watch model, year of production, etc... ) on Chrono24 offerings LOL
I have box and papers for all of my collection, I also add to each piece the receipt for a service or anything else that has been done. This adds history to the piece and a timeline of it’s lifetime, in someways it helps tell a story.
This
Excellent topic. "Box & Papers" has become an industry in its own right: the Chrono24 stats show why! Ebay makes it easy to buy a box, fake/unsigned papers are a long standing issue, as is the factory extract statement being offered as original paperwork (it isn't). Overall I'd say a significant % of B&P don't fully stand up to scrutiny and I like your suggestion of looking for the original purchase receipt. Also other items (eg. original chronometer certificate) that could only have come with that specific watch and are too obscure to be faked. Buy the seller, buy the watch, look for B&P, in that order of priority.
Great analysis, will you be doing a video of that GS on your wrist?
I love the box and papers. Great video 👍
Great video as always. Im building up to a speedmaster pro. As its my first luxury one i want all the bells and whistles
Thanks Chrono24 for supporting Adrian and regarding box and paper with all this massive improvements in fake markets it becomes vital to have especially when we talk about something worth thousands however it’s personal decision as investments every one have different goals and needs
I absolutely love the F.P. Journe style of delivery, you get a traditional certificate but alongside it is a beautifully designed Flash drive which conveniently contains the Time-piece Information and a Digital Certificate.
Great video. You really nailed it. I have nine watches. Five have box and papers four the complete packet. My Rolex GMT has a service packet which I consider essential when buying a steel sports model. The rest of combinations of box and papers but I bought them pre owned and at heavy discounts like my Breitling Trans ocean 1959 limited edition. It retailed for 9k USD. I bought it for 4k. Don't care it was a new old stock orphan. Great watch but most likely wasn't and never be worth anything. Like he said pick your poison just make sure you buy what you love. I love my Breitling as much as the Rolex. But maybe the Rolex a bit more because I can hock it to make bail.
Brilliant, informative video! Keep up the great #content
B&J makes an interesting point that was breezed over and that is that a lot of us are on a journey through watch collecting. For our journey to be as transient as possible box and papers is a must. I think we all like to think we've 'the one' but getting there need not be made more difficult.
Brilliant video. Thanks.
Very interesting and informative video
Thanks for valuable information.
Without trolling comments.....lowest is watch head only below watch (with bracelet). Great video Adrian, with perfect time and excellent editing! You have really upped your own game here.
Great video, really enjoyed it! What is your opinion on no papers but recent service papers present instead?
Great video, and Chrono24 great for tracking the potential value of your watch collection, recently they added the box and papers update, and it does make a difference, which brings me to my point, what’s the key to there algorithm, is it average or mean value, based on individual reference, or does it include variations. My 42mm date just is currently showing well over valued ?
I like box and papers. Full set is icing on the cake but, wow, some of the prices! Adrian, I love the way you cut this video (especially the '...box and papers a lot' J-cut). Very slick, very watchable. Cool!
Thanks so much. Glad you noticed the edit. It took a while.
@@BarkandJack Well worth the effort. Great stuff. Looking forward to your next one :)
Same as you Adrian, I bought recently multiple watches with papers and box optionally ...
Excellent video
Great video debate A! As you said it's and will be a nvr ending debate....I personally prefer to have B&P, and given the choice everyone would, so it's a compromise to not have them.
In order of their importance - 1. Papers 2. COSC certificate 3. Spare links 4. Manuals 5. Box. No. 1 and 2 are irreplaceable, No. 3 can be purchased from service center, No. 4 and 5 can only be purchased from grey market.
That’s exactly how I see it. 👍🏻
Hi Adrian, thanks for yr videos always interesting and humourous - what do you think of the yacht master 16622 ? supposed to replace the sub in the 90's and than ... didn't. However an interesting piece in my opinion - same mvt and pretty much under the radar ... a bit like the explorer II ... would love to hear your views about it - cheers !
It would be really interesting to see a video on selling a watch privately (dos and don’ts) or to a preowned dealer.
I bought my preowned 2009 Navitimer with Box and Papers. The "papers" was only the warranty booklet.
So I reassembled a full set from various sources. Manual from Israel. Slide rule bezel instructions and practice wheel from California. A hang tag, Breitling polish cloth and the little yellow document boxes that fit in the well under the inner box from a French website. And finally, the card about the Bakelite box from Italy.
For the COSC certificate I had to get a replacement for my Navitimer through my AD. The AD verified the watch and took the serial number, then two weeks later they received the certificate. It cost about 80 GBP.
It was a little bit bonkers, but I'm a completionist.
The thing can be summarized as follows:
Watches above a certain price have their individual serial number, so having the papers that certify or guarantee their origin and authenticity not only gives peace of mind to the buyer, but will also facilitate their possible future sale and, therefore, together with the possession of the original box, their total value also increase. In principle, logically, the ideal is, then, to have the "complete package" (watch + papers + box).
Now, how important is it to have the original papers and box when we buy a used / second-hand watch? The answer is somewhat complex but at the same time simple, because it depends mainly on two factors: whether you want to keep the watch or if you plan to resell it in the future, and most important of all: its price (because in the end everything depends on the price).
I do not mention the aesthetic (cosmetic) and functional condition of the watch because for me that is a "must", that is, every watch I buy must be in perfect or almost perfect condition, regardless of whether it comes with papers and box or not.
If your intention is to buy a piece to use for a while and then resell it, it is obvious that having the papers and the box will facilitate the task of resale, especially the more valuable the piece is. After all, if you buy it at a fair price, the piece will easily maintain its value and you will not lose money even if the purchase price was higher than if you had bought it without papers or box. Furthermore, it must be taken into account that luxury brands generally revalue over time.
However, if your intention is to keep the piece (especially considering that this hobby leads us to buy many and very expensive pieces), the most advantageous thing (from a purely economic point of view) is to buy it at the best possible price, and this almost necessarily involves acquiring it "incomplete" (without papers or box), as long as the piece is in optimal condition and you are certain that it is authentic / original. After all, it won't be too difficult to resell it if the purchase price was substantially (or at least reasonably) lower.
In other words, if you know how to buy at the best price, it does not matter whether or not the piece has papers and a box if the final intention is to resell it after a while, since the resale price will also be in accordance with the acquisition price when it was purchased, therefore, in neither case will money be lost (there may even be a profit in either way). On the other hand, if you do not plan to resell the piece in the future, the best option (economically speaking) is to buy it cheaper (most likely without the original documentation).
In short: the most advantageous option, from a purely logical point of view, would be to always buy at the best (lowest) possible price, and that means, in most cases, buying "incomplete" pieces. However there are exceptions of course. Furthermore, this hobby involves a non-logical expense, since it is about emotions and not the brain. Although it never hurts to use logic with emotions as well. 😉
Great video
Great video . It needs a sea change on how people think . Sure it should be a little more desirable if it has box and papers but it becomes ridiculous.. As long as the watch is in decent condition and authenticity in guaranteed then this is the major factor . I think many of us are caught in a trap where we will only buy if it has box and papers because as you say most people realise it so much easier to shift if required with box and papers .
I ran into this questions when I purchased my 1st Pre-owned Rolex Explorer 114270, In the ended I decided to get one with full set, and I made a good decision.
This is a good video ya boi
Thanks mate. 👍🏻
For me it’s plus box and papers minimum and I feel it gives some idea of how the watch has been looked after not a firm point but part of my overall thinking. Naturally I would take all I could get and I love a receipt or service details.
I wouldn’t buy without papers probably not without the box.
Yea I guess it goes toward authenticity especially on the high end watches.
very good video!
Thank you 🙏, appreciate it
I always lean towards box and papers. Helps me feel better about the authenticity of the watch, even though it's not a guarantee.
Good vid. And, yes, I'm one of those people who could happily own 20 watches but I sometimes have to sell one to buy one. All part of the journey.
I love box and papers. It’s nice to see what companies display different types of box styles and Manuel’s.
i spoke w/ manuel, he said his time is much too limited for what you're suggesting
I recently bought a preowned Tudor Heritage Chrono, it came with everything , box, outer box , tags , service warranty card from Tudor, service receipt, extra Tudor nato , booklets, etc etc almost a full set , but it would be gold if it came with original purchase receipt. I much prefer buying a watch with box and papers if buying privately but if buying from dealer, I wouldn’t mind without box and papers because I trust them that the watch has been checked out and serviced before sale
I agree, the condition of the watch and the papers are the only things I care about.
I wanted with my first Rolex (one and done) to have box/papers and I waited. Thank God! It feels good having the complete set.
i wouldn’t buy a watch without box/papers because the watch COULD be stolen; which i don’t want to support. :) great video
Vital Unfortunately watches have come to my workshop for authentication/verification and have come back as stolen even with box and papers,
Vital watches are stolen with box and papers.
@@ivankerr3570 How can you determine if a watch is stolen?
Not important when buying as long as you are not paying for them, but very important when trying to sell at the best price.
are service papers important? I almost bought a batman yesterday, but it was serviced from Rolex in another country with no paper showing proof of service, so I didn't purchase the watch. Any thoughts?
If serviced by Rolex it should be very easy for the owner to get a copy. Agree if they had it serviced it would be nice to have and you’re taking a bit of a risk at that price point if it turns out it was never actually serviced.
@@MrEli204 yep I agree. I was buying it to enjoy and as an investment and thinking 5-10 years down the line if selling for sure the new buyer would want ALL the papers :)
Rolex service is not “free”.....basic service is $750+ so there must be a receipt and document of service provided plus a service pouch or case. It is highly suspect if no evidence is available if seller says the watch was serviced to imply a legitimate (i.e., non-faked) watch
I'm new to watches - looking to buy my first rolex . I don't know any AD's - no I'm on my own . for me - box& papers/ hang tag is a must. - all said, very hesitant in buying from the grey market . good luck ~ JDS/CT
They DO NOT MATTER, it only matters to the person buying. If you purchase a watch with no box and papers you can still authenticate with a cert from Rolex. If you send in your watch for service or anything else, Rolex sends it back with a list of repairs and that is just as good as the original papers in terms of authenticity. What matter is, whether or not the watch is authentic, not that it has papers and a box with it. If someone is willing to pay more because of a box and papers, that's their own preference.
Great information, thank you.
Older watch.... Say 2005 ( before the Rolex ‘boom’) no worries, not too concerned. If there is papers it’s a bonus. . But after that time when everyone is aware of the value.... why no papers. It immediately flags up questions. I’ve had stories of divorce and never allowed back in the house, moved office and the secretary must have thrown them out. I sold an old watch and gave the wrong box and papers away..... I’ve heard them all. 😂 As others have commented, a bit like a car.... if you have the old mot’s and all invoices it gives loads of confidence. I have a couple of classic cars and I’ve ironed the old mot’s and filed them all in matching sleeves, but I’m sad and a complete anorak! Have to cut this short now I have to count the number of stones on our shingle driveway.....
Great video Adrian, cheers!
Haha. Thanks for watching Mike. I was really surprised by the amount of watches with papers. It seems odd. But like you say, I can imagine things were very different before. Enjoy the counting. 🤣
Is there any way to find out how long an advert has been up for a particular piece, or, similarly, the average time advertised for particular pieces/ websites? Thanks in advance guys
Nice video Adrian, I have my dads invoice from mappin & Webb 1989 Rolex GMT master £1000 🤑 I keep it safe 👍 keep up the good work Matt.
Not only are they important if you plan to resell your watch someday, I also think box & papers represent an important accompaniment to a family heirloom. Sure, it's great to inherit your dad's watch. Now imagine you also have the box and paperwork to go with it, which includes your dad's signature on the bill of sale from decades ago. That, my friends, is something truly special.
I've shifted from flipping watches to buying pieces that my kids will inherit someday. So my boxes go directly into storage and my papers go into the safe. Easy as that!
IN WHICH SITUATIONS DOES THE BUYER SIGN THE BILL OF SALE?. SURELY THE SELLER WOULD SIGN?.
Buddy how do u rate the H Moser endeavour concept blue lagoon watch .. I’m looking at buying the same ... also does it hold its price over the years or a preowned is a better option . Pls help . Many thanks .
Good vid but you forgot to include rsc service papers as they ad a slightly different proposition cheers m
Great to see some actual statistics, good on Chrono24 for providing those. I’d never buy a used premium watch without papers, especially a Rolex, since that’s the brand most counterfeited. For the watches I’ve bought, all new from AD’s, I have everything, including receipts and either the original box it was shipped in or the bag I got at the boutique. But I don’t anticipate selling any of the three nice watches I have, so keeping all of the stuff just makes me feel good, I suppose. Looks like you got a haircut 😏.
Box is no big deal assuming I'm able to source a period-correct one myself. But I will not buy without papers. I'm too much of a perfectionist and all my watches, most purchased second hand, are full kit. I'm also lots of fun at parties.
Yes
Never liked and subscribed. 👀😬 until now, thank you!
Love your videos Adrian. I will literally buy whatever luxury watch you say I should buy, lol. Keep it up and thanks.
I think the box and papers percentage increase, is pretty much in line with watches you buy because you are a collector vs watches you buy because you like the watch.
Pretty good video actually Adrian, makes me think. If I were to have one watch for life, I'd definitely want the full set. But if I were to have one watch for life, I wouldn't care about the accessories.
Fantastic!
Does B&P (on a newer watch) include the actual manufacturer warranty? There are many listings on C24 that are listed as New B&P but without the warranty and no card. (And maybe the dealer warranty only). I wish C24 defined what listings must have to be listed a B&P and police the listings a bit.
Hey Adrian so im looking for an omega speedaster day date or mark 40 or triple date in the blue face, im going to buy it for myself and dont intend ever re selling it, would i need box and papers for that?
Please share a picture of that coffee mug, looks interesting.
Man you should make a video showing the best places in London to buy second hand watches or brand new but low price luxury prices.
Papers and boxes are important! Even I'm not selling any of it, but the thing is, boxes designs are so important!
circumstances, especially financial circumstances, can change at anytime, and things we once believed we'd never part ways with can become expendable. A luxury item is an asset, and I feel should always be treated as such.
It’s all down to whether or not you think you’ll sell it in the future.
Not sure the swing tag adds character….but the receipt for sure does
I have about 50 pieces, the last 40 ish or so since I got into collecting. All with box and papers as I bought them, some grey, some AD. Never bought a used watch myself, but if I did I Would want/prefer the extra stuff.
I am also into Hiend audio and bought a lot off secondhand but always with box and papers, because it tells me something about the care someone is giving to there belongings, no box and no papers, no deal