Jerry Walls: What's Wrong With Calvinism, Part 1
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- Опубліковано 18 лют 2013
- Part 2: • Jerry Walls: What's Wr...
In this edition of the Evangel University Guest Lecture Series, Dr. Jerry Walls of Houston Baptist University addresses the "What's Wrong With Calvinism." The lecture was made possible in part by a generous donation from the Society of Christian Philosophers.
© 2013 Jerry Walls. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
God has shown me how wrong Calvinism is when I asked Him for wisdom regarding His love for people here on earth. I am just glad I went straight to the source of love and hope rather than wasting time hearing men debate theologies they came up with. Praise God for his steadfast grace and love 💗
You are not supposed to base your doctrines on emotions. You are supposed to base your beliefs on the scriptures.
@@nerychristianI don't see anywhere in that comment above about them relying on their emotions. They say "God showed me" and they don't elaborate on how God showed them, but I would be willing to bet it wasn't through emotions but rather through the plain reading of God's word. Ezekiel 33:11
It feels like being gaslit when discussing theology with Calvinists. Thanks for helping me understand better why.
677
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Perfectly said.
That’s how I feel. They always push back in such a way to cause one to feel like a dummy. That’s why these type of lectures are so important in helping us to realize we’re not crazy. Their doctrine is incoherent.
Test every spirit. Read the Bible and don't let people use emotional arguments. The heart is Deceitful above all else
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'
how clear can you get.
@macolyis yes i agree ,but ALL men are given Grace john 1 verse 4-9 - we are all have the Light of Christ ,so thats why GOD says i command ALL men Everywhere to Repent.acts 17-30 Paul goes on to say that God appoints the Times and Places of mans habitation and HE did that.so we might Seek and find HIM ,though HE is Not Far from anyone of US!
@macolyis i said john 1 verse 4-9 says in HIM was Life and the life was the Light of all mankind!! verse 9 the True Light gives Light to everyone who comes into the World!! Paul underscores this when he says all men are without any Excuse not to believe as we all have the Light of Conscience and the Light of Creation within us!! The context is that Everyone possesses Gods Light but man is a Practical Sinner and we do the evil,but we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. john says Brethren i tell you Not to sin,BUT if you do ,you have an advocate an that is Jesus Christ.Despite our sin nature,when we put our trust in HIM and believe, we are SAVED from all Sins past and present .But for those who walk in the darkness an reject Christ there is no hope for them. WE who have trusted Christ -ITS like we are on a ship headed for Heaven ,we slip onboard but never overboard as Christ will never let us GO. So sinners we are but we have a Savior!!
@@macolyisis'nt Christ set you free from the cross? did he gives you an opportunity to live an ever lasting life by sheding his blood? does the preachers told? that is the works of the Holy spirit... turn you heart to God and believe... dont expect the magical feeling. The african eunich read the bible and believes what the bible says, Philip baptise him. He get saves. the difference is some believe the message with their heart, and some do not believes with their heart. Paul told us to believe in our heart we should not believe our faith. we should believe the object of our faith. that can carry us throught.
Brother @macolyis let me say it this way. changes of heart and faith are like coin having two sides it goes hand in hand. why people cannot put their trust in christ is that they are not willing to change their heart unto GOD thats the reason why they cannot believe. without changing heart no one can put their trust in Christ finished work. bible says. Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads to salvation.
I feel so lucky to have someone speak so coherently and cleanly on this matter. Thank you Jerry!
You believe in luck?
I believe God doesn't want you to be DECIEVED into this satanic doctrine, your not lucky.
This is the most incoherent view on Calvinism I’ve ever heard
Definitely @@rickmethven4374
@rickmethven4374 Please give your coherent veiw. Also, be sure to check the calvinist he quoted and others to see if they agree with what he calls consistent Cavinism. I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between . I've been studying the Bible and I'm praying often on salvation and how it works as best we can understand on this Earth. I will always kneel to the authority of the word. I'd be interested in what you have to say and your biblical proof text.
All my thoughts well organized into a coherent presentation, keep on the good work Jerry Walls.
I'm thinking the exact same watching this.
The The best
Me too:)
Fear not Jerry, you may have been elected and yet know it.
It seems odd that he would gloss over Total Depravity while talking about the importance of freedom in the rest of the presentation-- since the Calvinistic understanding is that man is born in a state where he needs to be made able to respond positively. Yes, pretty much all Christians agree that man is a sinful creature, but the Calvinists take it further by saying that sin blinds them to the truth unless enabled by God to see.
I agree. I thought he was conceding too much on the topic of Total Inability. But the T in Tulip was the first big crack in the edifice that led me out of Calvinism. I kept finding scripture that was urging sinners to choose righteousness, to trust God and to repent. If God was behind the scenes withholding regeneration from the people He was calling to repent and believe then you could not trust Him. If his word is his revealed will, but He has a secret will that is contrary to His revealed will then you cannot trust scripture. These things led me to trust the God of the Bible and to reject Calvinism.
@@nathancjarrett You just had a mistaken view of Calvinism - and if what you described was your view, I’m glad you stopped thinking that way - whether you wanted to call it Calvinism or whatever. I just hope this hasn’t prevented you from mining the theological riches t that can easily be found within the world of Calvinism/reformed theology.
@@PaDutchRunner Yes, one of the challenges everyone has in this discussion is being careful not to argue against a false version of someone else's position. I am aware that many in the Reformed church do not hold to all 5 points of Calvinism, and do not affirm exhaustive divine Determinism. And I certainly have fewer points of contention with these brothers. However I do think that the 4 point Calvy and the person who tries to affirm Determinism solely with respect to Soteriology while softening their stance on other moral decision making, are attempting to affirm 2 contradictory systems. If you don't affirm E.D.D. or Limited Atonement you may still believe you can consistently affirm some version of Reformed theology, but I think if you examine the doctrines that remain, you will find it necessary to affirm these other beliefs as well. Or, if you find as I have that the Biblical text cannot support these, then you will have a number of Calvy proof texts that you will need to reexamine to see if they truly say what the Reformed theologians have been teaching. I think many who call themselves Calvinists are holding non Calvinist beliefs in some areas, and they often don't understand why non Calvinists are arguing against a thing that is very different from what they have experienced first hand in their nominally Calvinist church or Bible study.
@@nathancjarrett Are you able to profit from reading the puritans, Dutch reformed, etc?
@@PaDutchRunner so I have a Reformed background. I've read some Surgeon, and in school I had to read some Jonathan Edwards, but I haven't really gotten into Puritan theologians. I'm currently focused on trying to understand the writings of the Church fathers, and trying to understand what was actually transmitted from the apostles to the generation after them. I'd be willing to read some John Owen at some point, but I haven't gotten to that yet.
Both thorough and concise, not to mention astute and gracious, this is the best treatment of Calvinism I've found. I'll be referring people to this a lot, I think. Thanks a ton!
I agree completely!
I was in a ministry with a guy that was a Calvinist. We discussed theology sometimes. Calvinism was one subject. I said John do you believe God tells the truth? Of course. He said. I said do you think your pastor tells the truth? And preaches God’s truth as in the Bible. Yes was his answer. I said then your pastor would stand up in the pulpit and say to his listeners some of you will go to Heaven and some will go to Hell and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.
God decides everything.
yes....in Adam all die.....you can thank Adam for that; John Calvin didn't have anything to do with it...What you are really mad at is that the consequences of Adams 1 sin were so severe....1 sin caused the fall and damnation of the whole human race....that also speaks to how HOLY GOD REALLY IS!!!!......what the Arminian won't admit is that words like Predestined, Called, Chosen, Elect that appear throughout the New Testament make absolutely ZERO sense if man has free will and can come to Christ on his own.....If free will were true; then those words are not necessary at all. So the Arminian has to make up all kinds of nonsense to even explain what words like predestined, called, chosen, elect even mean. Many of the disciples hated, what you call Calvinism, when Jesus taught it in the 1st Century. Just read John 6:64-66.....it says that many of his disciples no longer followed him....so nothing has changed in 2000 years.....
2 verses in the Bible commonly misunderstood and misinterpreted are I Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9......I Tim 2:4 means that God desires that ALL kinds of men to be saved; not ALL men to be saved.....Its the same word where it says that the love of money is a root of ALL kinds of evil; not the love of money is the root of ALL evil. And ALL kinds of men will be saved in that heaven will be represented by all nations, tribes and tongues..... on 2 Peter 3:9 you have to look to the first verses of I and II Peter and they say that they are addressed TO GOD's ELECT. So 2 Peter is saying that God desires that NONE of the ELECT shall perish; it is not saying that God wants to save ALL men. God did not desire for Hitler to be saved ; for example.....nor the Antichrist; nor the false prophet....etc.....God wants ALL His Elect sheep to be saved; and they will be; not one more and not one less. Jesus clearly said that ALL the Sheep get saved......John 6:37-39 "37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
@@timclark2925 What Calvinists won't admit is that "predestined" and "elect" relate to individual salvation exactly zero times. Every time it relates to the plan, the process.
Context kills gnosticism, including Calvinism.
@@timclark2925 You just added words to scripture, nowhere does it say that God wants all kinds of people, He says He wants ALL. DO NOT PERVERT SCRIPTURE.
It's funny when I think about all of this. Biblically, Jesus Christ paid the penilty for all of our sin( eternal seperation from God in hell). I mean all of our sins( past present future), it would not makes sense if died for all but one. So when someone is saved, they are saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves but a gift from God, not by works lest any man should boast. I think this is pretty clear scripture on how a man is saved. If I am saved by the finished work of the cross, and I trust in Jesus Christ alone to take me to heaven when I die how can I lose it when I didn't work for it? How can I pay the penalty for sins when it is already been paid? I'm not saving me, Jesus is saving me. I am trusting on him to take me to heaven... I just don't understand why people have a hard time understanding this. Scripture also sperated salvation from service. Salvation is a gift, Service is working. You don't serve to get saved, you get saved to serve.
Brittany Nguyen You spell it out very nicely. I do wonder though how that works in practice. If I am saved, how do I know it? By confessing Christ as Lord? If that makes me saved, then what do I have to do to STAY saved? Anything? Can I sin and repent, over and over again? Watch porn, tell God I am sorry (and really mean it) and the next week commit more sin, repent again, over and over again, and STILL be saved by faith alone in the finished work of the cross?
If repentance means committing to staying clean from sin by praying, reading scripture, going to church - in other words, committing to works to lead a life of righteousness, doesn't that mean that works plays some kind of role in salvation?
If works play no role in salvation, it is all a matter of accepting Christ, wouldn't that mean I could say, "Jesus died for me, and I accept Him as Lord," and still be saved even though I never prayed, went to church, or read the Bible?
Works are evidence of faith. So if you have faith, you will intrinsically do good by spreading the faith and helping others.
your saved Unto good works never by them. we are always Sinners but Jesus takes on all those sins All the time but like a real father he wants to US to acknowledge them to HIM. We must also be very bothered when we sin.This is very important.
David Collins. Great points. Just one question. In James 2 he raises the question: What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith SAVE them? . and he goes on to answer the question: You see that a person is considered righteous (justified) by what they do and not by faith alone.
sorry guys, but scripture is very stubborn on that line
I'm wondering if you understood the presentation. Both Arminians and Calvinists believe exactly what you have described. The question that is brought to bear is ...
Who first chooses that one will be saved.
~ According to Arminians, it is the man (each of us individually).
~ According to Cavinists, it is GOD who has chosen long before our existence.
I used to think it was the former. Naturally, probably we all do. But after having studied this issue for several years, I now see much more Biblical evidence for the latter. Many Proof Texts that seem to contradict Calvinism, when seen in Literal forms and in Context, I see now support this view (which I call Sovereign Grace).
Wonderful, wonderful presentation .
Ambiguous Calvinism or Effervescent Grace is one of most heretical attacks on God’s character possible. You do more good than you realize with this video. Thank you.
Dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
Believein1 Did the Early Church Believe the Doctrines of Total depravity and predestination?
There are a number of websites and UA-cam videos (some quite terrible, others a bit scholarly, yet equally terrible) that attempt to dissuade investigative readers to believe that, except for Augustine, or at least until the “time of Augustine”, that the early church did not believe in the depravity of man, in unconditional election and/or a sovereign predestination,
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace.”
Origen: “Our free will…or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner.”
Eusebius (A.D. 330): “The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed.”
Augustine (A.D. 370): “If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?…O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power…Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ…What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us…Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God’s; how can they find it, I know not.”
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): “Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself…Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness…There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord…Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect…”
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation.”
Ignatius. A.D. 110 To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the God.
Justin Martyr: “In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation.”
Ignatius speaks of two sorts of persons, signified by, “two pieces of money; the one belongs to God, and the other to the world; which have each their own characters upon them, and every one shall go to his own place,”
Irenaeus (A.D. 198): “God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life…Being predestined indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever.”
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not [an earthly] place, but the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church…If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election…You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood.”
Cyprian (A.D. 250): “This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach.”
Ambrose Of Milan (A.D. 380): “In predestination the Church of God has always existed.”
Augustine (A.D. 380): “Here certainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, ‘You did not choose Me, but I chose you’ (John 15:16).”
Very well done presentation. I better understand Calvinism now.
No, you don’t. Lol. Read a reformed book from legit theologians, not Flowers or this guy.
Both Reformed Covenant Theology and modern Dispensational Theology ignore or pervert the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. The term "new covenant" is not found in the confessions of Reformed Covenant Theology, but it is found in the Bible multiple times. "Calvinism" started when men were trying to get their children into an Old Covenant relationship with Christ.
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.
.Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
Flowers was a Calvanist for 10 years & then he left it. He's trustworthy.
As I see things the biggest problem with Calvinism is what it says about God, and the same thing could be said about any incorrect doctrine. All correct doctrine must harmonize with what we know about God as revealed in Christ, who said “When you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father.”
His point that ends at 47:10...This is how Calvinism maintains its credibility; by using the rhetoric of universal love in a way that their theology does not support. Bunker busting bomb!
You don't get things such as love, gratitude, patience, etc. without the presence of evil and adversity.
Why not?
@@christophersnedeker2065 Patience imply you have to endure and wait for something better, that imply there's something worse in the first place. Real love imply that you have a choice to not love. Gratitude imply that you have seen worse and were liberated from it.
Great lecture, very informative :) Thank you for your work, may God bless you as you continue it!
awesome video....go ask your calvinistic preacher if God has chosen his family for salvation and listen to his response..
I asked my former pastor (a Calvinist) and he said he doesn't tell his children that they might not be elected. He told me "salvation is of the lord, I will never tell my children they could be dammed to hell. that's up to God to decide". Therefore he only tells his children that they need to repent and that God would do the rest if they are elected.
I still think my former pastor means well and I still love him and pray for him.
@@David24476 I am not sure what kind of Calvinist your former pastor is but a knowledgeable Calvinist would not tell his children that "they need to repent and that God would do the rest if they are elected." A Calvinist would believe that their repentance would be the result of God's work in their hearts but that would not be part of the message they need to hear. The concept of election forms no part of our evangelistic message. Our message is simple. God has promised pardon and justification to everyone who will confide in His promise. He is able to make such a promise based on the infinitely valuable and abundantly sufficient redemptive work of Christ. No sinner has ever existed who would be denied pardon and justification if they trusted God's promise and repented of their hostility toward God. The gospel is not for elect sinners but for sinners as sinners.
Thank you. Very instructive lecture
57:24 According to Calvin, questioning Calvin is the same as questioning God: "No one can disprove the doctrine I have expounded except he who pretends to be wiser than the Spirit of God." --John Calvin (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.155 in the two-book collection "Calvin's Calvinism")
i would like reference to JI Packer quote about bona fide. I cant find it.
They come from his book "Evangelism and the sovereignty of God" which I just read for a class, a lot of the quotes were familiar
@@iKentine what part?
@@koriclaypool9548 They're scattered throughout the whole book, but chapters 1& 2 specifically have a lot
@@iKentine i will look ty
I thought this sounded familiar. Then I realized that I had heard it all before from the excellent book "Why I Am Not A Calvinist." It's nice seeing the face of someone whose book influenced my own thinking.
DarthBobCat that’s so said but i get it you been deceived
@@flamingooneleg77
Calvinism: The doctrine that believes Christ isn't who He claimed to be nor is capable of doing what He said He would do.
Deceived?
Calvinism cannot coexist with the gospel. There is no assurance for the believer. The message of the cross must be removed. The end times judgement is for nothing more than show. The word "believe", which in itself requires making a choice, must be removed from all scripture.
C'mon man! Deceived?
@@djohnson3093 Wow! What a brilliant display of profound ignorance, You clearly have no clue what Calvinists believe and have affirmed and denied in our major confessions of faith.
@@TheBereanVoice No need to look beyond their gross corruption of the Gospel of Christ to see what Calvinists believe - hint: It's certainly not the Truth that set's one free!!!
@@caroldonaldson5936 Perhaps you can indicate one point on which the message we preach differs from the message the apostles. If you can't, you need to ask who it is that has grossly corrupted the gospel. I can show you many ways in which synergists have departed from the apostolic message.
The Calvinist are the post modern gnostics. Instead of a secret handshake, we are offered up a warped view of God’s righteousness and our inability to make a decision by faith (like Abraham) to follow Him. This doctrine of election and predestination excludes “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” The very existence of a command is that the person who hears it will make a choice to do so or not. Knowing who will and who will not obey the command is superfluous because God knows the answer. It is the invitation that excludes excuses for not obeying and the judgement that follows for failing to do so.
John 17 : 5 " Father, glorify me in Your own presence with the glory which I had with You before the world began."
"He had with you before the world began" in the sense that his being in the father's presence in the present tense, guaranteed from the beginning that he would be glorified in his father. Again, Calvinists gloss over the nuances of grammatical constructions, honing in on a single meaning when the construction of the sentence does not logically guarantee it.
@@ScottRachelson777 Jesus in his Bible is saying to me God thought everything out before time began and right there I can't undesrstand that timelessness and also God is One uncreated, so that's another mystery. God is the arhitect of everything and when He was ready he created = thought ot Jesus and begat him, made him to manage the putting in place the PLANS. Jesus is subject to time I am the Alpha and Omega where as God isn't and that reality puts the complete lie to the demonic Nicene creed that satan demands be dogmatised in order to explain away Jesus's ability to destroy his dreadful work ie the dismissal of demons, the cleansing and sourging of lower human natures.
@@ScottRachelson777 solid eisegesis.
You just made all that up, it’s nowhere in the text. Calvinists of old were better suited in the Greek and thats definitely not what they saw that verse meant.
@@florida8953 You are a brainwashed Calvinist, so of course, you think it's eisegesis. I'm not surprised. It's like expecting a radical Muslim to see that Jesus is God or a JW that Jesus is eternal and that being born of man doesn't negate that fact. These groups are all bound up in the mind and so their spirits are blind as a bat.
@@florida8953 Calvinism is clever. Walls points that out.
44:50 I'm not finding that verse in 2 cor 2:16. It says something different.
I know God commands me to share the Gospel. God only can convert the sinner.
I am not overly committed to Calvinism, but the Bible certainly speaks on predestination. I watched this video in hopes that Dr. Walls would give scriptural evidence against Calvinism but he did not. If the Bible isn’t the basis for truth, then what is?
Yes, the Bible is truth. But election was pertaining to Israel in context
Good for you, Jennifer. You’re seeking truth while being discerning at the same time. Not many Christians are like that anymore and it’s really hard to change your mind in such a stubborn culture. About a year ago, I too was not committed fully to Calvinism and it was really picking my brain. My answers came from listening to RC Sproul and his scripture-filled analysis of predestination. A year later and I find Calvinism on every page of the Bible. It’s been a truly heartwarming discovery. I know it’s been 2 years since you posted this so hopefully you’ve found some answers :)
@rickmethven4374 I see that predestination has more to do with those who *are saved* and in Christ... they are predestined for Heaven and all things described there for them.
Those who haven't trusted in Christ are not "in him" and are predestined for Hell and all that is described there.
It doesn't have so much to do with *who will be saved*
So before I trusted in Jesus, I had one destination ahead of me. AFTER I trusted Jesus as my Savior, I have a different and better (pre) destination. My destination has changed 😊
That's what I read..
FWIW, many years later: Arminianism accepts predestination. Goes something like: "God chose for those He foreknew would answer to His calling."
It certainly makes more sense than the mental gymnastics needed to swallow down Calvinism.
@szilardfineascovasa6144 I think Predestination has more to do with those who are already saved. Not who will or won't be saved.
Perfect factual information about the misunderstanding of Calvinist who misunderstand and misrepresent the word of god into their own understanding of scripture
I am so grateful this popped up in my feed today.
I'm not completely trough the video, so I may be premature in my remarks, but i find it interesting that his arguments so far are with what he admits is an inconsistent Calvinism. Perhaps he will address consistent Calvinism at some point.
I cannot bear to listen to this guy, not Christianity at its best.
You say (correctly, s as I understand it) on Calvinism there must be a bunch of damned people for God to get maximum glory. But Arminianism doesn’t fare any better. It has its own hostage situation: on Arminianism, there must be some damned people, or else there is no free will, and there is no real love.
Evangelical Universalism answers all the problems, and is the Biblical answer.
Universalism is not biblical
I do find this very interesting. It seems that his video is quite misleading. The video is titled What's Wrong With Calvinism, yet he only used Calvinists' specific quotes and rebutted them. When he used a quote from the author of Calvinism- John Calvin- and the original document of Calvinist doctrine 'Institutes- he used it to rebutt what these Calvinists said. He also assumed a lot of things from a few word statement spoken by human. ALSO, he not once accounted for God's wrath on his people. He should have asked 'How can God be loving if he incurs wrath on His people?'
@@micahfurtick3310God doesn't have wrath for his people.1 thessalonians 1:10
I never really understood Calvinism myself but am interested to know if certain personality types are more drawn to this kind of theology than others. Anecdotally, I've never really seen a Calvinist exhibit high levels of empathy for example and they tend to be much more risk averse than others which leads to the kind of closed-mindedness that in my opinion is quite damaging. I guess it's really hard to tell which came first whether it was the Calvinism that requires you to suppress empathy and become risk averse or whether it is being naturally lacking in empathy and being risk averse that predisposes someone to embracing Calvinism. This may seem like a strange angle to come from (the whole personality type thing). I do just wonder sometimes the psychological impact of having a vision of God who is ultimately opposed to the notion of possibilities and who presents himself to us (from the human perspective) as an apparently amoral certitude who defines his notion of goodness in a way irreconcilable with the definition of good I have come across in any human language. Why not use the English word "evil" for the Calvinist God if that seems to fit better? I'm aware that Calvinism has always been an easy version of Christianity to caricature due to the moral repulsion felt by most people who encounter it, at least for the first time. Hopefully I'm not leaning too heavily on those caricatures to make my argument, but if I am I'm open to correction. Again anecdotally, I've never really found a Calvinist whose life I would feel compelled to imitate in any significant way. Is it too harsh of me to question the tree if the fruit seems mostly distasteful?
I'm in a PCA church but I must admit I find Calvinism a nightmare. I'm desperate to find arguments that Calvinists have misunderstood essential things but I want truth, above all else.
I believe it is according to His mercy. I guess that makes me a Calvinist. Maybe you can examine me? 🤔
You are right my friend I agree
@@urawesome4670 I agree - I'm reformed because I'm convinced I am hopelessly lost without the grace of God and I don't understand WHY HE WOULD PICK ME because I feel like has chased me my whole life and he will never stop. I love my Lord.
I think I understand what you mean, but also, think: the great majority of people on the planet (or who have You Tube) could not care any less about this topic, even many “Christians” or some may not have the intelligence to grasp its intricacies. I what I mean is that the mere fact that you’re here actually interested in this subject matter (and not bashing it, like some atheists like to do) represents at least a care and love for God such that you are willing to expand your understanding above and beyond what most others would do. I would venture to say that if you ask most Christians whether they embrace Calvinism or Arminianism, they wouldn’t even know what you were talking about. I attempted to explain the difference to my wife the other day and her head almost exploded, and I was unsaved before I met her, and but for her, I would probably remain unsaved (but not according to Calvinist, lol). I think the personality types would break down like this: cerebral/academically-inclined literalists= tend toward Calvin; heartfelt/emotional/romantic?= Arminian. Hard to pinpoint, because we all have Jesus in common....isn’t that enough?? That’s what my beautiful wife would say.
At 59ish he says God is only LORD/King after creation I dare say he has been from eternity past because God is immutable he doesn’t change all of his magnificent attributes have always been there he hasn’t gained or lost anything he is omnipotent before he created, he is love, he is righteous, he is absolute, self sufficient or autonomous, holy and all his other attributes have always been.
Was God the creator before He created?
@@BuildingApologetics Malachi 3:6 “For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.
If he was only creator after creation then that changed God from noncreator to creator and would not longer leave any accuracy in Malachi 3:6 and would nullify the doctrine of the immutability of God all of Gods attributes are eternal creation has just allowed them to be manifest. Is mercy and grace immutable attributes of God? Yes but they weren’t on display until the fall of man, and in full consummation at Calvary.
Here's the issue:
God desires His glory more than human autonomy.
Or
God desires human autonomy more than His glory.
The first sentence is correct.
The Arminians mistake is that they assume sinful man is able to objectivly judge whether God is good.
What a fantastic, exciting, deep professor. How I wish my professors were such!
Read Ken Wilson's recent book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism", if you want to understand the origin of this man-made doctrine.
One more thing... In the calvinist conundrum -- Why God didn't make everyone saved.. They do answer and they do put up a good fight, Romans 9:22 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory-… God... Sort of gives the answer calvanist can use...
So.. if Calvinism is incorrect.. What then do we do with rom 9:22 I've never labeled myself a calvanist but this verse just screams at you
Again with the argument where you say Man is responsible for his actions but also divinely controlled, Once again Calvanist aren't pulling this from thin air, God himself gives that example time and time again, In exodus, Moses tells pharoah if he does not let his people go he will punish pharoah with plagues etc.. Yet pharoahs heart was hardened to NOT let people go by GOD, then God punished him for not letting his people go! Even to the point of pharoahs first born dying.. Yet why did God tell us HE HIMSELF hardened the pharoah... And then punishd pharoah for his hardened heart or at least what he decided... So tell me.. How could we possible answer calvanist we can't just use your arguments.. They don't tackle scripture!
Oh and... Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose--even the wicked for the day of disaster.
Until a man does not understand that everything was created for God’s glory will continue think that Calvinism is wrong .
Calvinism is not simple in the Salvation issue Other groups have similar if not worse understanding on this issue . To be safe , make personal study . And ask the Lord for wisdom .
Amen 💗 I asked God to help show me His truth after coming across Calvinism and I know now that Gods will is for everyone to be saved but some of us choose to accept or reject His gift of enteral life through faith in Jesus Christ
I appreciate that Jerry gives a pretty fair presentation of the Calvinist position.
Having noted that, at 57:00, he says, “Now I believe God can do anything he wants to do, but there’s some things God can’t want to do.” The Calvinist claims nothing more for human beings. What Jerry’s statement suggests is that God has freedom of the compatibilist sort (he can do anything he wants, but can’t want to do some things, because of his nature), whereas he believes that people have (what Jerry would consider real) libertarian freedom? Are we "more free" than God?
Counterfactuals of divine freedom are different from those of creatively freedom. God cannot do evil, yet humans can, so in order for a Calvinist to frame issues this way, then they must be fully deterministic and incapable of resolving Mackie’s problem of evil
What you need to understand is that God gave man DOMINION over earth. Once you understand that you are on the right path
It ONLY makes sense that God gives people enough grace to love Him.
"To whom little is given, LITTLE is required. To whom MUCH is given MUCH is required."
Those who have not heard of Jesus, yet, with what little of the Grace of God they have received, do their best to feel the need for God, and love Him as best they know how, God will allow them to Salvation and the Atonement. Perhaps, when such a person, or a child dies, they are gently led to an understanding of Christ. If they truly have accepted the Grace of God, they will come to Christ after they die.
let me tell you why I reject his very sad doctrine of Total Depravity :
The reformed concept of Total Depravity means that all of mankind is evil and sinful to his very core so that every inclination of his heart is always evil all the time (see Genesis 6:5). "Total" means utterly, complete, 100%, a term you would describe to Satan, not to us, created in the image of God :-
(who so hated the world he despatched his demons to lead all gullible Christians to damnation, thinking there was nothing they had to than pompously declare, "I am saved."
REBUTTAL: But if man has been created in God’s image and not the devil, and God has freewill, then man must at least has been granted moral responsibility even though his heart is inclined towards evil. Logic and common sense demands God can exercise his Will anyway he chooses. If he asks us to freely love Him then granting us freewill is a necessary prerequisite.
A moral and just God who wants to judge us according to our deeds Matthew 16:27, could only do so if we are held accountable for our actions. Ergo, God must create us with a conscience to choose good over evil. Turn on the news and that become abundantly clear. Even atheists have an innate sense of what is good and just, right and wrong. That's why we see atheists giving time and resources to humanitarian causes (like hurricane relief.) If man was 100% evil, we wouldn't see this. I believe we are indeed sinful, just not totally depraved.
U - Unconditional Election
This doctrine asserts that even before the creation of the world, God had already chosen who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. So it completely takes man out of the equation and negates any free will.
And it teaches that the only people that respond to witnessing are those who are already chosen by God. Only we do not know who is chosen and who isn't so we must witness to everyone just in case and then see if they are one of the elect.
God doesn't play games and this would be one big very immoral game...it would be God saying "go preach the good news to everyone, but only I know who is saved and who isn't but you don't, so go try and see who accepts Me and then I will tell you if you were wasting your time or not.”
It isn't in line with the gospel message of "all who call upon the Lord will be saved." I know all the work arounds on this, but it is adding to scripture to say that the "all" who call upon the Lord are only the elect as they are the only one's who will call upon the Lord. The Gospel is free and available to everyone. Read it with discernment.
To be a Calvinist, you must accept that God created humans unable to reason.
Not that humans can error in reasoning, but rather man is unable to reason.
Once one accepts that belief, any contradiction can be accepted.
If mankind can come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Messiah apart from Spirit, then I'll believe you.
Matthew 16:15-17 ESV
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" [16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
John 3:8 ESV
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Is Dr. Walls adding something to his own definition of Compatibalist freedom at approximately 13:50. He states that the internal beliefs and desires are caused by something externally but his definition does not include this last fact. Now I think both Arminians and Calvinists believe that our beliefs and desires are at least somewhat caused or greatly influenced by things outside or external to ourselves. Our sin nature that has been inherited from Adam, thus external to ourselves, makes it impossible to choose anything but sin unless we receive grace from God. The Arminian clears this up with previent grace which is given to all men. However, I do not see that term or that concept in scripture anywhere. For the Arminian no one has free will until God in his previent grace causes all mankind to have freewill. Of course this God makes it almost impossible for some, especially compared to others, to choose to have faith. So God is not fair in the modern sense of the word. But does the question become is it fair for all men to be judged and receive a sinful human nature so that all men cannot choose to place their faith in God through Adam and his sin? Calvinists propose a way this might be fair. Is this where at least one huge part of the argument is? If it is fair then Dr. Walls whole talk falls flat.
I listened for 10 minutes. All I heard was someone hollering. There was not one audible word in that 10 minutes.
how would have responded Spurgeon to this guy argument?
you need a few centuries and more than a litte chat to prove calvinism wrong.
It takes five minutes to disprove- a lot longer to persuade people
@@josephchapman9575 When you have a false view of who God is and His character, you can "disprove" just about anything in the Bible.
I wonder if any if these are in the Bible
I really do appreciate this video and the others I have seen "debunking" Calvinism with logical contradictions. Here is my problem (I invite you to chime in if you have an educated opinion). How do you reconcile the multiple Bible verses that clearly indicate there are "elect" Christians???
See Beyond the Fundamentals Kevin Thompson
CHERRY PICKER.
What are people elected to? If you look to those verses that indicate that people are elected you’ll see that those people are elected to God’s service and purpose. They are not elected to salvation. Is there a verse (or better a passage) that you cannot reconcile?
Elect never refers to individuals being chosen for salvation in the Bible.
@@garyleemusic Yes, Election by God is always for a purpose of His. It is not no election, no salvation. The Bible’s says salvation then election
Yet. Not a single scripture used in this over an hour rant. I find that odd.
I just googled "anti-Calvinist Bible verses" and came up with at least fifty. But I'll give you one of my favorites right here. At Mark 10:17 Jesus is asked by a rich young man, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus doesn't tell him, "Nothing. Just live till you die, and if you open your eyes in Hell, oh well..." No, Jesus ticked off several items in the Decalogue, and then finally told the man to give away all his possessions and follow Him, which seem to me to be some rather specific actions to secure salvation. If Calvinism were true, this would have been the perfect moment for Jesus to have told him about it.
Its about time people looked at calvinisms blatant supersissions and call out them.
God would never command men to repent if they where unable.
Repent of what?
Pride will keep them unsaved... The humiliation that they hold satanic doctrine will make them blind and keep on going to the lake of fire..
Friend, that was the same view Pelagius had when he debated St. Augustine. Pelagianism was soon considered heresy by the entirety of the Church in 415 AD. Read the debate summary to see the wisdom in Augustine’s response
@@rickmethven4374 This is the same err MacArthur spews.
@@laserfalcon Nobody said I do or don’t support MacArthur. We’re talking about the theology here, not mere men. If your theology is dependent on the men who teach it then your theology is in men, not theology of Word of God. Show me MacArthur affirming Pelagius and I’ll be more than happy to believe you. I simply stated a fact of history. If MacArthur affirms that, good for him
Calvinist or just people who try to interpret what the author of The Bible meant at the time they said it.
The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit.
@@douglasmcnay644
Yah and he wrote it on Greek and Hebrew a long time ago.
It all comes down to free-will-Best explained in the clearest book on this topic!-"Where Calvinism goes wrong!"
I think it all comes down to Gods character.
@@AlanaL3 amen 💗 and Satan does nothing but slander God’s character. God is a God of love and His will is for everyone to be saved 💗
@@SillyChickens222 If He WILLS it, then why isn’t everyone saved? If He wills something, it gets done. It can’t be stopped.
@@florida8953when God says he abhors the murder of innocent babies, he means it. He is not making what he abhors happen. Your thinking said all things that are, are because of God's will, but things that are clearly against God's will (as presented in Scripture) continue to happen. Your God is the embodiment of God and evil combined. You're syncretistic, as if God were a yin yang.
@@florida8953 Is He obligated to save everyone no questions asked?
Why was Michael Servetus burned alive by John Calvin? How can Calvin go to heaven being guilty of murder? Servetus' blood crieth in flames and seeketh justice just as Abel's blood. How then is Calvin different from Cain?
Love it! Inconsistencies = Mysteries
Because there are no mysteries with how God works and the Arminians have it all figured out amirite?
@@florida8953not ever non Calvinist is Arminian.
Why didn't God determine us to be good seems to be a question. Answer
Cause God planned to save by Grace through his son. That's what and how he wanted it
God DID create us to be good, but for love to be true and genuine, we created humans must have free will to choose it or not to choose it. Without this choice of genuine free will we would have been nothing but loveless automatons. The fallacy of Calvinism turns human beings into just that.
@@maryvalentine9090 But who are you to judge God? Read Rom. 3:3-4 (or the book of Job.)
Thanks for this great video 2023
There is a answer people are grasping for but cant get. Paul said it best and I agree that who can understand God and his ways, we can talk and think until we die but we dont have the mental ability to understand Him fully. This is where faith comes in, I have faith God wishes all to be saved, I hqve faith that God knows all things and is all powerful, I have faith God created us in His image and we have free will. I dont understand it all and only God can, that is why you cant pkease Gid without faith.
This is great, God bless you.
I'm trying to figure out how his definition of libertarian freedom holds up, that is in regards to human agents.
Walls' definition - *a free action that is not determined by prior causes or conditions. As he makes the choice, the agent has the power to choose A and the power to choose not-A, and it is up to him how he will choose.*
What does Dr. Walls mean by determined? Does he mean affected by or determined in some intellectual sense? Do individuals choose between A and -A in spite of particular conditions or prior causes? Not sure how a condition or cause (CoC), if we are referring to non personal CoC's (geography, economic status, etc.) could determine in any intellectual sense what human agents do, but I can see how such CoC's might affect one's choice. I of course could see how God ( a personal being) does determine one's choice, (eg. hardening of pharoah's heart, the stirring up the Assyrians, etc). He is an intellectual agent that has the power to determine, times, conditions, circumstances, cursing etc which of course have an effect on how humans choose.
If he means to say a free action that is not affected by prior CoC's I think that definition couldn't hold up at least for humans. There are many CoC's that have already been determined, human-ness, time and epochs, family, etc. These CoC's affect how human agents make choices. thus to say "human free will" is misleading. This is why I would make distinction between what non-Calvinist mean by "free will" in regards to humans vs. what Calvinists mean in saying that man's will is limited, by nature of him being man, a creation.
So under such a definition the only one who could, if we grant the definition, have such freedom is God. Needless to say I think his definition lacks some precision.
Regarding his argument I struggle to see how a Calvinist would be inclined to embrace the first premise. Much like his definition of libertarian free will it lacks precision. God loves everybody? How? In the same way? With the electing love of Christ? I don't believe that God loves everyone the same as is clearly seen in scripture, I don't believe that God loved Pharaoh like did Moses. Nor does it seem that God loved the Amalekites the same way he loved the Israelites. I think Calvinist would make distinction at this point regarding the nature of God's love towards human, rightfully so considering the biblical evidence.
quite sure this man's theology could not stand under the weight of cross examination
Where's the scripture.. why can't you go over all the verses like in john and romans and ephesians... how to you take all those verses?
To give a lecture like this without quoting or expounding scripture he follows his forefather John Wesley on the same subject It is not acceptable to say that he is going to do this subsequently. Not all may get to hear the next lecture.
ua-cam.com/video/D6rmrX5p44Y/v-deo.html it's really not too hard to find.
To write a critique like this without quoting or expounding scripture....
Nothing is wrong with Calvinism... however, what’s wrong with this lecture is that there wasn’t even one Bible verse until 43 minutes into the lecture, and how he never presented passages from scripture like John 6:37-45, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:1-14 and 2:1-10 that all support Calvinistic soteriology.
Why not go straight to Christ’s and the apostles’ teachings AKA scripture to refute Calvinism... oh wait, you can’t because it’s all throughout scripture. So much for that PhD if you can’t exegete scripture...
Although I do not care for much of what Jerry Walls has to say, I do agree that his critique of Packer and D. A Carson was helpful and sound. God does not love everyone on the same level and Christian pastors have no business declaring that He does. The only obligation that men have is to preach the Gospel to everyone without exception because, unlike God, they do not know who is actually among the elect. The Calvinist pastor should present the Gospel to all knowing that it will have the effect it was intended to have. Even Jeremiah was commanded to preach to those in particular who would refused to hear.
I appreciate your forthright attitude about whatever Calvinism actually entails.
Absolutly brilliant. Thank you from France !
Short answer to why I am not a Calvinist:
1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
To all those who call themselves Calvinists I would echo Paul's question, Was Calvin crucified for you? If anyone thinks this approach is frivolous I would reply two things: 1) that I also have a long answer, covering the many unbiblical aspects of Calvinistic doctrine. And 2). I have personally experienced the hurtful divisive effects of a prideful loyalty to Calvin that eclipsed a common fellowship in Christ. There is an individual, a brother in Christ, who has severed all communication with me because he could not convert me to Calvinism. We had discussed various aspects of "tulip theology" but our last communication was a conversation in which I brought up Calvin's involvement in the execution of Servetus. My friend angrily defended Calvin even though one of the "heresies" for which Servetus was burned at the stake was opposition to infant baptism, a charge for which I would be guilty and subject to execution if i had lived in Calvin's Geneva.
Historian Bernard Cottret summarizes Calvin's argument in a syllogism based on a lost letter: "Socrates is a man, and therefore mortal; Servetus is a heretic, and therefore combustible." Cottret also cites a letter from John Calvin on Servetus that says: "One should not be content with simply killing such people, but should burn them cruelly."
I forget who it was that asked, "How could a follower of Christ the Lamb act like such a cruel and ravenous lion?"
P.S. I'm not an Arminian either.
Oh lawd! 🤦🏽♂️
Calvinism was the theology of the Baptist Church in America from its founding. Arminianism came in in the latter half of the 19th century and has misled many like this man does. He is using human philosophy and Gods thoughts are higher than mans.
I loved this! He did an excellent job in a very gentle and loving way. As a Calvanist, I appreciated that. It seems though, that the entire crux of his anti-Calvanist argument was based on Whether God loves everyone, or mankind’s general definition of love. But the Bible answers this. Paul clearly told the church in Roman’s 9 that God raised pharaoh up for his own glory and, in the same chapter Paul answered the argument with a rhetorical question. “Can the potter make a vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”. That question is rhetorical for two reasons. The first reason is because of course the potter can make a vessel for honorable use and one for dishonorable..and the second reason is because Paul already showed the Romans that Paul had made pharaoh for his own glory..So, I’ll answer the “does God love everyone” question with a question of my own..Did God love Pharaoh? Remember, according to Mr. Walls definition of Love “truly to love someone is to desire their well being and to promote their true flourishing as much as you can”. Does creating a “vessel” for dishonorable use fit this definition of love? Did God love pharaoh?
Yes, remember in God's love there is kindness, compassion, mercy, sacrifice, justice, judgement, hell and heaven, to name a few.
God chose the Jews to carry his name (honored). However, the Gentiles (everyone else) he did not, you could say that the gentiles were raised at first for dishonor. When the words honored and dishonored are used it simply means one group or individuals were given preference over another or denied acknowledgement for whatever reason at whatever time in history. It does not mean that they were raised for destruction (forced into hell), or on the other hand, that they have automatic entrance into the Kingdom.
When you cherry pick scripture and not take in the whole council of God’s word, you can easily come up with all types of ungodly beliefs, cults and the like. You must realize that Pharoah’s heart was by choice already at a state of disbelief in a God whom Moses was proclaiming. Pharaoh had choices just as we do today.
This next passage might clear things up for you.
“The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).
Did God send a delusion just to deceive people, no scripture clearly states "for this reason" they beleive not the truth but a lie.
The delusion comes on behalf of people's own choices. Their sin if not repented of puts them back under the law out of grace,
not by God's choice but their own.
Remember the incidence of the snakes in Pharoah’s court. Pharoah’s magicians imitated the miracle of Moses's rod turning into a snake, not just one but several snakes. It was a counterfeit although at the time very real. Such as the case with Satan and his devices, very much real but yet a counterfeit to what God’s purposes and plans are. God as he did back then and does today send strong delusions to those who refuse to love the truth and obey as to be saved. In the Old Testament it was done by not believing through disobeying the prophets who spoke on God’s behalf. By choice people decide their own fate.
In Acts 3:25-26 we read,
And you are sons of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers when He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all the families of the earth will be blessed. When God raised up His Servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.
Did God forcibly turn Israel from their wicked ways. No, he provided the way into which they might believe in His Son. Although they were chosen to be a nation honored by God to carry forth his purposes early on, yet Israel still had to decide whether or not to obey. They were raised up to be a vessel honored by God. Every one of us are sown in dishonored, for we have all sinned. But those who obey and believe in the truth will be raised from dishonor to honor and seated with Christ in heavenly places.
God raised Pharaoh up as a vessel of dishonor. Not to force him into hell, but chose him to be a force of evil because he refused to believe in Moses a prophet sent by God to deliver his people, and also to fulfill his purposes. God is sovereign in his foreknowledge, not wanting anyone to perish, but all come into the fullness of Christ, whether by revelation through the prophets in the O.T or through Christ Jesus in this age. Pharaoh was already under a personal decision of disbelief and an unwillingness to know the one true God by choice.
In Exodus 8:15, 32; and 9:34, we are told explicitly that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so lets not put all the marbles on God's side.
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. Rom 2:4
God raises kings, presidents, prime ministers today as He did in the O.T for his glory, for His purposes and plans.
By no fault of our own, God does not purposely condemn to hell or eternally save to heaven.
If so Christ died for some, not all.
Remember your parents loved you by the hand of blessing and punishment/discipline.
Did God love Pharaoh, yes in love through justice and judgement.
Of course God loved Pharaoh. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath/destruction God used against the J--s, (don't want a hate speech strike for the geniuses at youtube) It does not logically follow the Pharaoh himself was a vessel of wrath unto himself or a personal recipient of Gods wrath as the Calvinist believes. He was simply a tool. There is no reason to assume he never believed. God hardened his heart, but for the express purpose of the aforementioned and not necessarily unto eternal punishment in hell.
Just something to chew on...
What about those who have never heard the general call, Jerry? Missionaries are unnecessary?
John 6, 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 12:32. And I,when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself
@@brendapfeil4584 Oh, wow, I have never read all of John. Everyone is is going to Heaven. 😎
@@tricord2939 not what that verse says at all. God is not willing that any should perish but that doesn’t mean that those who choose to reject Him won’t. Just as He draws everyone to Him there are those who will willfully turn away.
@@brendapfeil4584 Proof texting is a dangerous thing, you quoted “ALL”. In reply to John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
@@tricord2939
Yes, absolutely yes God must draw a person to Christ. How does He do it? The gospel is preached (Romans 10:13-14); The Holy Spirit ( John 16:8)
The Father sent His Son, the Word, the gospel, the Holy Spirit, and faithful preachers so that men would be drawn.
Literally a few verses up in John 6: 40 Jesus says, “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
And He EXPLAINS what He meant in John 6:44 later in verse 64-65. Those that wouldn’t believe and who would betray Him!! You have to read the whole chapter!
Interesting. I think that suggesting that God can't be love because He sends some people to Hell is a problem for the Arminian and the Calvinist. The question should probably be "why doesn't he send everyone to hell", since we all deserve it.
I wonder if anyone who has listened to Jerry Wall's talks or read his books have bothered to read Calvin? I have read an abridged edition of Calvin's Institutes. They are a marvellous clear, bible-based Christ-honouring work. I remain unconvinced by Jerry Walls because of Scripture but respect his position.
At the end of the talk the speaker said God cannot do anything but love. How are we to view Psalms 5:4-7 and 11:1-7 where God states his hatred toward certain individuals? Does this not undo the saying, "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner?"
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
7 But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You.
1 In the LORD I take refuge;
How can you say to my soul, “Flee as a bird to your mountain;
2 For, behold, the wicked bend the bow,
They bmake ready their arrow upon the string
To shoot in darkness at the upright in heart.
3 If the foundations are destroyed,
What can the righteous do?”
4 The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD’S throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.
5 The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6 Upon the wicked He will rain snares;
Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.
7 For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness;
The upright will behold His face.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ps 11:1-7.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ps 5:4-7.
The TULIP is treated as though it were a paragraph of scripture and part of the inspired text, and so doctrines are built around its precepts. They are just concepts that may contain aspects of truth but they are not true as biblical revelation to be embraced as a tenet of doctrine.
I agree
out of interest, would you say the same about the triune nature of God?
That's a good question. I will think on that for awhile and contemplate how it would relate in regards to the previous description that I made.
Kenneth Mcclurkin ok
Biblical revelation regarding the triune nature of God isn't stated so simply as the word "trinity" (which the bible never uses), but it does systematically reveal that 1. God is three persons, 2. Each person is fully God, and 3. There is one God. (Hard to comprehend but God really is three different things that are omnipresent, while being one God). The Calvinist principles, if taken in their full context and studied systematically from Genesis to Revelation, are not systematically revealed, nor consistent. The one compromise I will make is the idea of Perseverance of the Saints. Aside from a few select texts in Hebrews (which I think are taken out of context by hard-core Arminians), I believe true salvation is eternal. Aside from that, I think Calvinists have it wrong, especially in regards to election, atonement, and the resistability of grace. With regards to Depravity, I don't get too worked up. We're depraved to a certain extent, call it total or not, whatever. That being said, I also think it's important to remember that if Jesus is your forgiver and leader and you have genuinely declared those words in your heart and with your mouth, then whether it's a sovereignty thing or whether there is some free-will involved (you can see where I stand), we are all on the same team. What Jesus did, who He is, and what He does inside of us and through us, is what's really important.
I enjoyed this teaching. It seems to me that mankind, since the beginning in the Garden of Eden, has had free will. God told Adam and Eve what to do in that day, but allowed them to do the opposite. When man was seduced by the serpent, he freely chose to listen to him instead of God. God never forced man to listen to Him and He even made another way for man, even in his disobedience. God loves us and desires ALL to come to repentance, but He doesn't force us or pick certain ones. His Word draws us in, but doesn't force us to accept His free gift. Makes sense to me and certainly paints a beautiful picture of the love God has for us, as demonstrated in Christ.
Derick Bland,
You seem to be majorly confused about what Calvinists mean when we deny free will. We do not mean that sinners are not able to choose contrary to what God has commanded or that they are able to make free, voluntary and meaningful choices that from the human standpoint change the outcome. People choose apart from external constraint.
No Calvinist believes that God forces anyone to believe.
You are correct that God desires the repentance of all. A holy being could desire nothing other than that. That is not the issue. The issue is whether He has determined to secure a people for Himself or if it is possible that all He has done for the salvation of His people will have been completely in vain. Calvinists simply believe that God is not merely one who wants to save and tries to save but one who actually saves whom He will and does so successfully and by Himself. He is not waiting for the sinner's cooperation. He graciously produces the sinner's cooperation by putting a new heart in us and giving us a new disposition toward Him.
That’s a misunderstanding of Calvinism that, I’m afraid, is very popular. The best way to go at Calvinists is to say they don’t believe in free will. It’s always sad to see someone shoot at it from such a wrong angle. Former Arminian speaking ✋
@@rickmethven4374
I have been uninvited or banned from attending a Calvinist church for believing exactly what J. Walls is teaching. Some believe that God pre determined who will be saved, others believe God has predestined all to be saved through Jesus. You can call it Calvinism or Arminianism but that is not the point. All who except the grace of God will be saved because Jesus’ death on the cross NECESSARILY was for all sin. Jesus’ death cannot be limited as it is SUFFICIENT to cover all sin. That’s how great Jesus is ! Our sin is evil, but His grace is sufficient to cover the sin of the world. Praise be to God!
Also, the only unforgivable sin is unbelief. Even Jesus marveled that souls that don’t believe ;
And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them.
(And he marveled because of their unbelief).
And he went about among the villages teaching.
Mark 6:4-6 - www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark%206:4-6&version=RSV
Your Unbelief is what keeps you from the grace of God.
@@jamesbrooks4374 I find it fascinating that you were “banned” from a church for believing in a certain view of Christianity. I wouldn’t commend any church for that. Either they’re a poorly mislead church or you’re being dishonest. I hope neither, and I’ll take your word for it. I pray you find forgiveness in your heart and that the church would reevaluate the treatment of their members. As for the conversation though, Calvinism and Arminianism have names for good reasons. Disassociating the names to their beliefs makes no sense to me, but call it what you like.
We agree when you say that all who accept the saving grace of God will be saved. That much is promised in scripture and a firm belief of Calvinists and Arminians alike. What we do not affirm is that that grace was meant to cover all sin- even unrepentant sin. It’s a nice idea that Christ covers all sin, but it is not the story of the Bible and He is not the God of the Bible, if you are correct. If you suggest that Christ died for ALL sin, then you must also suggest that Christ failed at saving those He died with intention to save. I’m curious if you would directly affirm this statement. (You would say that this is only due to their unbelief, and I would agree. The question is: why would an omnipotent God send His Son for those He KNOWS will not repent?)
You claimed that Christ dying for ALL sin is what explains “how great Jesus is!”, but what makes Him even greater is that He is JUST. Idk about you, but I’d rather have a Just God than one who attempts to save those who are unrepentant. Because God is just, He will not make atonement for unrepentant sin (which He foreknows), and therefore would be a different God from the God of the Bible if He sent His Son to die for unrepentant sin.
Arminians are assuredly brothers and sisters in Christ, and should not be thrown out of any church, ever. But I believe they are brothers and sisters in Christ because of an inconsistency in their own theology. I’m afraid that if they WERE right and people DID accept God’s gift on account of themself and not 100% on account of God, there wouldn’t be a single Christian on the planet. We’re just far too sinful. Praise God it’s not up to me whether or not I’m saved, and praise God that in His infinite wisdom, He is just and reserved His mercy for those He sees fit.
@@rickmethven4374
I can show you the email;
“It has been the decision of the pastor and chairman of the deacons to prohibit you from attending any activities at Pleasant Union Christian Church”
Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels not for humans created in God’s image. God did not create humans just to hate them, that would not be “just” as you say. I believe God fore ordained the World before creating it. In doing so, using His omniscience, God knew which world He would create would allow for the most free creatures to spend eternity with Him. In doing so, there are indeed humans that when given revelation from God would not accept His grace. But God didn’t damn them before creating them they freely chose to not worship the Creator.
My point about Calvinism and Arminianism was that mere Christianity is all that is needed for a rich and full relationship with our Lord, and Savior Jesus Christ. Reformed or Catholic doesn’t matter either. Not sure religion matters either. Just a tight relationship with our Creator. But one must get that right, no false god can save you. Only the True God can through the sacrifice of Jesus.
One more point I hope you grasp, Jesus’ death did take away the sin of the world. If there are millions of worlds in existence we don’t know about Jesus’s death was sufficient for the sins of those worlds as well. Nothing but the blood of Jesus can save and that blood is not inefficient unless it is rejected. Look at Satan and his angels
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe-and shudder.
James 2:19
But they don’t accept God’s grace do they ?
"All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men" (Matthew 12:31).
Sin is forgiven only because of Jesus’ propitiation on the cross. No one deserves salvation accept the sinless Christ, we now should love our Creator and Sustainer and our neighbors as ourselves, and sin no more.
I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Romans 12:1-2
To continue in sin is to crucify Jesus over and over and over again. Stop sinning! Confirm to Christ as our example.
Wasn’t that why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us?
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
John 14:15-17,21-24
This is doable through the Holy Spirit, not by our own strength.
Happy day brother! God bless and keep you!
An excellent presentation, but I think his definition of compatibilist free will at 13:40 doesn't sit well with me, I think it is more about the will being constrained by the sin nature rather than by psychological state or beliefs
His definition is verbatim my pastor’s.
My only problem with this is that the lecturer does not take into account many biblical passages where God chooses to do something sovereigly. Example Romans 9. Its hard to align any philospphy to fit biblical revalation.
Brilliant! This guy's logic is impeccable.
it is NOT mans logic that teaches the sure word of God- it is the Holy spirit!!!- 🎺 - get-with-it!!!
Dr. Wall's basic presentation of core calvinistic framework is correct, however he makes almost no effort to compare those tenants with the Bible. Instead, he Compares them with the opinions of prominent Calvinists, and in a very bizarre move, uses appeals to emotion to claim they're not viable. It's very strange if you think about it.
Who cares if John thinks that he loves his children more than God does?
Who cares if j.i. Packer doesn't get contradiction correctly?
Even if those were true statements (you'd have to actually ask those men and get their feedback), none of those factoids prove whether or not Calvinism is consistent with the Bible.
Technically, his whole approach thus far has been a strawman, since he doesn't even refute Calvin directly (let alone show Biblically why Calvin's position doesn't fly).
Walls would do much better if he spent his time showing from the Bible how Calvinism is not true, rather than making emotional Appeals to reject the opinions of prominent Calvinists.
The two are not the same.
Of course, you could strangle your granddaughter if you have a libertarian free will since your desires have nothing to do with the choices you make. Incidentally, your statement is a good illustration of what Calvinists mean we say sinners "cannot" receive the gospel. It is true in the same sense in which you believe you "could not" strangle her.
So God is good not becase he is good, but because he is God. Is it possible to speak of him without creating a monster?
@@vayabro1 God is good because He is good. He doesn't try to be good any more than the tries to be eternal.
Have you ever heard "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?"
Drag indicates unwillingness. Does the word ever have that meaning in the NT? Of course. That is not the point. The point is that the word ALWAYS signifies that which is effectual. The idea of dragging in terms of John 6:44 would be contrary to what Monergists believe.
Hearing they will not hear and seeing they will not see. Unfortunately Dr Walls has not or cannot hear it.
That was about Israel.....God gave them a spirit of stupor. read Isaiah 6
If we don't accept Gods undeserved Grace freely it would mean nothing.
Around minute 53:00 he says that God sends men to hell unconditionally. Calvinists do not teach that. They teach unconditional election, but not unconditional damnation. Damnation IS conditional, and the only condition is men's free will that goes against God. At the beginning he states that he agrees on total depravity issue and that that is not the problem with Calvinism, but he evidently does not understand what total depravity means.
By the way, where are Bible verses in all of this? He attacks Calvinism by logic. This whole debate over election comes from systematic Bible research. If you want to prove a doctrine as false, you have to use Bible as your standing point, not other theologian's phrases and proving them to be logically inconsistent.
link_music
Why do you believe Paul tried persuading men to believe the Gospel? Could Paul actually get more men to believe by appealing to their circumstances?.....
1Cor 9: 19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Thanks and God bless.
@@evanu6579
You think he caused people to believe?
I do all these things because of the gospel, so that I can be a participant in it.
1 Corinthians 9:23
Yes but according to the Calvinists no man can do good without irresistible grace, and if God refuses to give irresistible grace than he's like Pharaoh commanding to make bricks without straw, heck he's commanding to make bricks without clay.
Very well said
This is Calvinism.
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
Titus 3:5 KJV
It is according to His mercy.
If you are going to prove Calvinism, then you need to cite a verse that is not consistent with all of the views.
@@jimmyray5524 That passage seems to be consistent with both views
@@jimmyray5524 Thank you for your reply. I appreciate you disagreeing with me in an agreeable fashion. Allow me to be a bit slow/lenthened in my reply so that you can understand me and I can understand your position perfectly clearly. Also, I read the passage in esv and King James, and neither one seems inconsistent with Arminianism as far as I can tell.
Firstly, it seems to me that I have no point yet to prove as far as I am aware. I simply said "That passage seems to be consistent with both views", and it is simply the nature of the idea of "consistency" that we consider two ideas to be consistent unless or until we have a good reason to say that they are not. Therefore, since you brought up the passage as proof against Arminianism, the burden of proof remains solidly in your court.
"Mans free will and choice is not there!"
I am going to ask you to clarify what you mean by this. If you mean mans free will and choice is not explicitly taught there, then I agree. Yet, if you are going to use the absence of an explicit mention of this doctrine within the passage in question, then you also must reject Total Depravity since that is also not mention in the passage in question.
However, it is more likely that you meant that man's free will and choice is not possible given the passage. Yet, here still, I must ask you to further clarify. Do you mean all men or only some men (since the passage only mentions the man of God's council). One could take this as proof that the free will of only the believers is extinguished.
So what does this verse say (without going beyond the meaning of the text). It simply says that if God ordains for one of His followers to come from the far country, then it will come to pass. Notice what the passage does not say. It does not say every man, it merely talks about the one who executes His council. It does not say God always ordains where the man will go. It does not say God ordains everything the man does. And even for the man for whom God did ordain to come from the far country, the passage does not say the man cannot make other types of choices (such as when to come, what route to take, what supplies to bring, who to bring with him, what mood to have along the way, etc). Now maybe God determines some or all of these other choices too, but the passage does not address the issue.
@@jimmyray5524 Thanks sfor checking in. This seems to be a youtube issue. I did indeed reply to your comment "I disagree my friend. I believe the verse only supports Calvinism!". If you did not get my response, then let me know and I can repost it. On the other hand, if you did reply to my comment, then I did not get that reply, and you will have to repost it.
@@jimmyray5524 Alright, here is my reply reposted
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate you disagreeing with me in an agreeable fashion. Allow me to be a bit slow/lenthened in my reply so that you can understand me and I can understand your position perfectly clearly. Also, I read the passage in esv and King James, and neither one seems inconsistent with Arminianism as far as I can tell.
Firstly, it seems to me that I have no point yet to prove as far as I am aware. I simply said "That passage seems to be consistent with both views", and it is simply the nature of the idea of "consistency" that we consider two ideas to be consistent unless or until we have a good reason to say that they are not. Therefore, since you brought up the passage as proof against Arminianism, the burden of proof remains solidly in your court.
"Mans free will and choice is not there!"
I am going to ask you to clarify what you mean by this. If you mean mans free will and choice is not explicitly taught there, then I agree. Yet, if you are going to use the absence of an explicit mention of this doctrine within the passage in question, then you also must reject Total Depravity since that is also not mention in the passage in question.
However, it is more likely that you meant that man's free will and choice is not possible given the passage. Yet, here still, I must ask you to further clarify. Do you mean all men or only some men (since the passage only mentions the man of God's council). One could take this as proof that the free will of only the believers is extinguished.
So what does this verse say (without going beyond the meaning of the text). It simply says that if God ordains for one of His followers to come from the far country, then it will come to pass. Notice what the passage does not say. It does not say every man, it merely talks about the one who executes His council. It does not say God always ordains where the man will go. It does not say God ordains everything the man does. And even for the man for whom God did ordain to come from the far country, the passage does not say the man cannot make other types of choices (such as when to come, what route to take, what supplies to bring, who to bring with him, what mood to have along the way, etc). Now maybe God determines some or all of these other choices too, but the passage does not address the issue.
Citations please please
Always had trouble with pre-destination. Although, foreknew who would seems reasonable.
poseidon3032
If you have trouble with predestination, you have trouble with Scripture which speaks often of predestination.
@@TheBereanVoice Let me put it this way. Not in the way he explains that the Calvinists see it. Fore knowledge of who or who wouldn't receive the Gospel is completely different. There's probably tons of nuances that hasn't even been explained in this more or less simplistic critique of the subject. God is both justice and compassionate. Which can often be on the opposite end of the spectrum at times.
@@poseidon3032 If you wish to know how a Calvinist explains predestination, it is best to let a Calvinist explain it and not listen to the multitude of people who seem to delight in misrepresenting what we believe.
@@TheBereanVoice Well, that seems fair. By your defense of it, you seemed to be well versed. So what does it mean if Wells explanation is insufficient?
@@poseidon3032 It simply means that before God created the universe, He decided what He would either permit to occur in His world or cause [in the case of those things that are according to His revealed will] to occur. It does not mean that He meticulously and proximately causes all that occurs or that He has determined to do so
What is the point of telling Cain he must overcome sin if he supposedly was never able to overcome sin in the first place?? Calvinism is a load of (fill in the blank).
bud ekins When did God tell Cain to overcome sin?
Hi Speaks, it was in Gen 4:7. ."sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you MUST RULE OVER IT".
bud ekins ..ah, ok. thanks man!
Constant The God Rapper ..I been watching alot of your videos bro. I Thank God for working through you to get to me. keep the videos coming!
bud ekins- God gives us many commands that we of ourselves can not fulfill or obey. When you refuse to accept the gospel as explained by TULIP you reject Bible truth and show yourself still lost and in your sins. Seek the Lord that you might find Him. You have a false Jesus you have created and therefore you need to repent and ask God for true saving faith. Watch my many excellent videos that might help you.
I agree with Dr. Walter Martin, who was my instructor in Apologetics.Somewhere, in the mind of God, there is a perfect union between what God knows, ordains and what man is capable of responding to. Predestination does not have to mean that since some are chosen to be saved, others are necessarily CHOSEN to be LOST. [ Calvinism]. A logical deduction but NOT Taught in scripture.God is never illogical but He is a logical, far above man's ability to think and reason.You cannot resolve the sovereignty of God with the free will of man in any texts in the scripture...hebrew , greek, aramaic, english. At the same time, you cannot say that man willed his way to heaven. You cannot possibly discount and dismiss the dozens of scriptures that tell us that God has chosen us [ the elect] from the foundation of the world.The truth lies somewhere between Calvinism and Arminianism.Pray that God The Holy Spirit gives you peace and instruction on this important and fundamental doctrine. db
FYI, equal ultimacy is not the confessional position, and a minority of Calvinists at best hold to it.
Dana Brinkmeier,
Calvinists do not teach that the reprobate are CHOSEN to be lost.
I know it's 4 years, but at lease you are prepared to LISTEN to truth.
The scriptures Declare:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 (KJB) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
You will notice that those that PERISH, perish because they DID NOT receive the love of the truth that they might be saved - Verse 10
The US (Christians) are saved because we were CHOSEN to SALVATION - Verse 13
@@whatsaiththescripturesI agree with all of your scripture references. I know that predestination is mentioned in many places in scripture...but I also know that Gods nature is clear...He is Love and the first two commandments reference same. This is a difficult doctrine to completely grasp on so many levels. I have pondered this for a very long time and have come to the conclusion [ rightly or wrong ] that because Gods ways are infinitely higher than ours...I believe God can draw people to a saving grace knowledge of the truth of the gospel so as to be saved with irresistible grace and others. most , will be given the chance to make a free will choice to accept or reject Gods plan of salvation and choose or not choose Jesus Christ as Lord.....yes...I know logic will not allow both ways at the same time but perhaps...just perhaps...Gods economy will operate in both doctrines. I will add that I do not believe that God chooses to dam people to hell as it is against His nature to do so...limited atonement is off of my plate.. This whole doctrine will be crystalized when we cross over the river to Glory which may not be that long for me being 77 yrs. of age. God Bless see you at the marriage supper !
Well at least you are willing to consider truth. The argument should never be "What's wrong with Calvinism", it should be does scripture teach this? John Calvin was not even born yet. But they like to put the blame on John Calvin. It is no different to when the Lord told Moses, they have not rejected you, it is me they have rejected (paraphrasing).
Consider this verse: Psalm 65:4 (KJB) Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
They were chosen by God, and it was God who caused them to approach unto him. God NEVER ordained anyone to Hell, or Chooses to damn people to hell. They go THERE on their own. If God did not CHOOSE anyone, NONE would be saved. See the difference? Read 2 Thessalonians 2: 7 - 17 carefully. The ones DAMNED were damned because they of their own freewill RECEIVED NOT the truth that they might be saved. The rest were saved ONLY BECAUSE God CHOSE THEM to SALVATION. For ANY to be saved, God has to CHOOSE them. God bless you too, and hopefully we will see each other at that Great marriage Supper.@@dbrinkm1
This is a great video but it is ravaged by ads every 2 minutes. More than any other video on here I have seen. Good information in the video though.
Not surprisingly, there are many misconceptions and false representations, oversimplifications, Straw men and other fallacies of what Calvin and what scripture teaches primarily in this comment section and in the video.
I cannot get over 1 Cor.4:7, what do you have that you have not been given? Faith included. I know one thing for sure, this is not a head issue, this is a heart issue. Please pray about this and ask the Lord for clarity and wisdom. Don't come to a quick conclusion based off of this man's lecture, or anyone else's. Calvanists believe that Christ will have the preeminence in all things, even the number of those in Heaven being more than in Hell, so he is off on saying most believe that the vast majority will be damned. In zeal and hatred of Calvanism, it seems he is making extreme claims. Listen to both sides thoroughly. Also know this has effects for life, so the question does have to be addressed, What are the consequences for each belief in life, ministry, etc.? Blessings!
It speaks of Corinthians boasting what they think they know (resulting into factions) you fins it in 1 Cor.3:3
Paul refers to the Gospel they have received from the teachers yet it is God who made the men grow? (This is not about uncond. Election and Irresistble grace) It speaks of the grace behind the Gospel nd the grace of provision in sending evangelists, therefore no boasting must be done.
Everyone has been given the ability to exercise faith plain and simple.
@@chriscagle4226 lol
"the number of those in Heaven being more than in Hell"??? Jesus said that there will be more in hell than in heaven Matthew 7: 13-14.
There is no readon to dtufy teo sides since one must be wrong. We must study the side which is correct. You have the free choice to study the bible or mans teachings. The bible is suggested.
Either Roman's 2:11-16 is true or God is a liar.....this is what brought me out of the heresy of Calvinism....God is NOT a respector of people, but of conditions...you must believe to have salvation is the condition...whole book of John states this over 100 times.
It doesn't sound like you ever understood Calvinism if you think that Calvinists don't think faith is necessary?
@@josephharrison4669 I understand Calvinism fully and was a convert for years until the Lord showed me the way
@@polskigirl8547 well if you were a Calvinist, dont you know that we believe that one must have faith for salvation? It sounds like you have no knowledge of this.
@@josephharrison4669 I do have knowledge ….. but your faith comes from God and not your free will…
God chose you for heaven and decried others for damnation…
@@polskigirl8547 regardless of where the faith comes from, I still have faith in Christ so I don't know how you can call Calvinism a heresy. How does it change the gospel in any way? I believe Arminians are wrong about soteriology but I wouldnt call you a heretic because you still have faith in Christ for your salvation.
Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37.
To my Calvinist brothers do you believe that Christians who don't subscribe to your doctrines are still elected?
They may be, but they are surely misreading Scripture.
@@douglasmcnay644so God in his sovereignty saw it fit to elect people who don't believe in his election plan?
Absolutely. Anyone who has been properly baptized (preferably by sprinkling, as a baby😉😉🤣) and subscribes to the Nicene Creed is a Christian.
@@caedmonnoeske3931 so God in his sovereignty saw it fit to elect people who some don't believe in his election plan? Coz not all who subscribe to the criteria given are Calvinist.
@@ThaiyaWaronja Of course not. Most Christians aren't Monergistic (basically just Lutherans, Anglicans, and the Reformed). They're heterodox in this area. That's not good, but if perfect doctrinal purity was the litmus test for salvation, then we'd ALL be in trouble.
Didn’t see him give any scriptural proof for libertarian freedom ??
That is because there can't be any Scriptural proof for libertarian freedom.
@@TheBereanVoice agreed. God bless these folks
It’s all over the Bible!
We are commanded to repent and believe!
““The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!””
Mark 1:15 NIV
“Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord evil is avoided.”
Proverbs 16:6 NIV
“Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:38 NIV
“Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?”
Romans 2:4 NIV
Just a very small sample. These verses clearly indicate volitional choice. Why else would they be issued as commands?
Every wicked person is good enough to save himself by pulling himself up by his own bootstraps. Right Jerry? Sounds Pelagian to me.
If someone gives a homeless person food, its not the homeless person who made his own food. He was given that food. But he can choose to not eat the food. We have free wil mate. Calvinism doesnt understand this.
@@kehanvanvuuren7718 If God foreknows that you will go to hell, is it possible that you will not go there?
@@kehanvanvuuren7718 If you have free will, why do you choose to sin?
Where can you find Calvinist churches ? it appears to me they hide in other denominations
Presbyterian :) (Highly recommend if you want to hear scripture preached!)
Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, German Reformed, Huguenot, Congregationalist, Hungarian Reformed, Polish Reformed, Swiss Reformed, and Anglican.
I'm really surprised after watching several debates of Calvinist that someone hasn't brought up the topic and symbology of marriage. That's the entire point of marriage on earth to give us an example of our relationship/marriage with Christ. Who chooses a bride and makes them marry him whether they reciprocate or not? Only musilim religions do that as far as I know.
A bridegroom that is perfect, fair, and who loves His bride enough to know what is the most loving thing to do for her, even when she is to selfishly driven to choose it for herself (sinful). That being said, I’m a Calvinist and don’t believe that’s what Christ does:) We have free will (every Calvinist believes that) and it is man’s fault alone when they are damned to hell. God simply enables us to follow Him. If He didn’t, we wouldn’t. Marriage isn’t used as an analogy because it isn’t a good analogy. Marriage is a bond between two human beings. Yes you’re right, Christ’s love is symbolized by it, but He is God, we are man. A man who forces a wife to marry him is a brute. A Perfect God that does is one who wants His children to be in relationship with a perfect God. Can’t ask for much better
The church is the bride. But individuals are children of God. I think a better way to think about our relationship to God is as child born into His family through faith in Christ. And God is the perfect father. And no matter if we are obedient or disobedient God remains faithful. We cannot cease to be His child just as it is impossible for my own kids to cease to be my children.
Notice how he is talking about what other people say rather than the Bible. Isn't the Bible our standard?
The Bible certainly is our standard. At the end of his lecture, Jerry said he has a UA-cam series that dives into Scripture that you can look up. It's called, "What's wrong with Calvinism" and it's split into 6 parts. The first three parts are what this lecture was about.
that is what I have observed..when I watched the Amazing grace video also on youtube...about understanding calvinism...the author uses scriptures verse by verse..context by context ...the reason why I have accepted this doctrine after 28 yrs...whereas this one is base only upon human logic..upon his own assumptions
Caleb....If he merely quoted what others have said, and those "others" supposedly base their belief on the Bible, where is the problem?
Your question is begging the question. It's a logical fallacy. It implies that he does not base his positions on Scripture because this video deals with what Calvinists have said and basic logic. It is a break in basic reasoning skills to make the implication. But you're not alone. At least 9 others thought you had a good question.
The nature of truth is that it agrees with itself; you don't get to rank sources.
If you want to unravel the calvinist elegant ly, you better do it with the main authority, the bible itself, unless you embarrass yourself.
This is why I am a Primitive Baptist and not a Calvinist. We don't believe in a general call, only the effectual call
*1 Corinthians **2:14** : 14*
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 6:44
No man can come unto me unless my Father who sent me draws him
Well, herein lies a typically emotional presentation, but where is the scripture to back it all up? Where is the dispute against Romans 9?
I've been studying and believe in Calvin doctrines...one thing I see consistently from Calvinist is they use scripture to support their views whereas those in opposition use almost no scripture and does not seek out God's word. Be careful of following those folks. Study scripture and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you! God Bless!
Did you hear him mention at the end of the lecture that this was a philosophical lecture? And that he deals with the Biblical texts also?
Not all Calvinists use TULIP. Instead of Limited Atonement there is Definite or Actual Atonement. Instead of Irresistible Grace there is Effectual Grace or Effectual Calling. The Reformers used the words and understanding of the terms for their time period. Calvin gets so much hate and at least Walls educates his audience about this. Calvin was a brilliant man gifted by God that in his very early 20s already started writing Institutes.
Brothers and Sisters, KNOW your church history! I don’t care if you are a Calvinist, Arminianist, Molonist, and some other varying degrees within each camp. KNOW your church history. Know how these doctrines came about.
Walls is right about the Freedom discussion and John Frame does a very good job explaining it in one of his volumes of “A Theology of Lordship.”
IMO, the biggest question for someone who does not believe in the Sovereignty of God in salvation to answer is, “Can Man Deny God?” Whatever your answer is that question will let you know how you view God.
I am a 5 Point Calvinist. On July 31, 2005, my ODA and I were on a mission which ended with my vehicle striking an IED. My right eye was popped out of socket, left lung partially collapsed, and when my femur broke, it cut my femoral artery. It was two hours before I saw a surgeon. I used all the blood at KAF so some near ODAs came to give blood. 3SFG flew my wife to Germany because they were unsure if I was going to make it.
I woke up from a drug induced coma to sound of my wife’s voice, “Hey Baby I’m here to take you home.” To this day I get emotional when I say that. She laid in the stretcher beside me and flew back with me on a C-141 Medical Transport and with a flight surgical team. I could not keep my eyes open because of all the drugs and coming out of the coma and I was not sure if I was going to die or not. My BP was so high, 225/115 was the average.
Somewhere over the Atlantic God saved me. He regenerated my heart. God made me a new creation. A new man! He gave me a new nature that is set on Him and not sin. Do I sin still and Christians still sin…Absolutely. It’s not about the will. Your will is tied to your nature. YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR NATURE without the regenerating act of the Holy Spirt.
In John 3, Jesus was teaching Nicodemus the Doctrine of Salvation. Verses 1-15 is the Sovereignty of God in salvation and verses 16-21 is Man’s Responsibility. It is not accident they are butted up against each other. Jesus, Who is God, goes from one to the other without skipping a beat lol. EVERYONE has to accept there is still mystery with the two and able to reconcile the two.
I have Brothers and Sisters that are not Calvinist or are 3 or 4 Point Calvinist and it doesn’t matter to me, I still love them and do not degrade them like some would or some who have a distain for Calvinism and get belligerent with you lol. It’s crazy.
When I was in that C-141, I was so doped up and could not even say coherent things, but our Lord placed repentance and faith within me (Ephesians 2:8) so I could repent of my sins and have faith in our Lord AND Savior Jesus Christ as my name was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundations of the world were made by God (Rev 13:8;17:8b). The Book of Life was written before God made the world. God is not a time traveler, because He is the Author history. If you TRULY believe Man is the Ultimate decider on whether he or she is saved, then you have to rip John 6:37, 45, 65; 10:14-16 and all of John 17. If you base what you believe on one verse then you are sitting in a one legged chair.
One very good tool or rule to remember, “What is the context of the verse? What is the chapter about? What is the book about and who is it addressing to?!” Advocates of Anti-Calvinism like to use 2 Peter 3:9 to say, “See…God does not want anyone to perish and ALL to come to repentance.” Who is Peter talking to? He is talking to Believers! The reason we are in 2023 is because in time God will save those of whom He wrote their names in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundations of the world. God does not take delight in the destruction of man, but if God did not save some, NO ONE would be saved. Read Romans 3:10-18. NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Either way, I love all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ as we all should. I will caveat that there is this ugly stuff called “hyper Calvinism” which IMO is not Calvinism at all!! ANY Calvinist should be the most humble person in the world because he or she knows and comes to realize that he or she deserves death, the grave and Hell and not a shred of His Grace!
I will put a link to my testimony and how God save me. In Christ, YBIC
Never heard of this guy before, but what an excellent lecturer! My gosh, Calvinists are Christianity's answer to Wahabbist Islam.
This statement might be true as Whahhabists follow the Quran much more closely than most Muslim people do.
@@StudioGalvan If calvinists actually read the bible instead of worshipping MacArthur and company they would know that it doesn't support calvinism at all.
@@lintflas1183 Perhaps you should also warn Yohann Hus, Martin Luther, Zwingli and all the rest of the heroes of the Reformation about not following "Calvinism" or John MacArthur. Oh wait, They all PRECEDED John MacArthur. As did the early church fathers who wrote the churches and each other many things which support what you call "Calvinism". Here is a pretty good list of many of their writings.
www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/calvinism-in-the-early-church-the-doctrines-of-grace-taught-by-the-early-church-fathers/
(Jump about 3/16's down the page to see the available quotes.)
~ So the point is, there is Very Good reason that the doctrine of Sovereign Grace, (now popularly called Calvinism for some reason) exists.~ But as you indicated, it matter not what ANYONE says, if it is not supported in scripture. Here is a list of scripture as well as what many of the Pre-MacArthur theologians have commented.
www.apuritansmind.com/tulip/calvinism-and-tulip-in-the-middle-ages/
~ Perhaps you will study it from a Non-Calvinist Hater before you make judgement.
"Remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."
(That is, if you even consider all these great and Godly men of the past brothers.)
@@StudioGalvan Luther and Zwingli weren't calvinists.
Calvinism plays almost no role in the German speaking world. It's a problem in the English-speaking part of the world.
I don't deny that there are numerous attempts to turn them all into Calvinists.
@Lintflas You need to check your facts sister. Almost ALL of the Early reformers were believers in the doctrine of Sovereign Grace (Calvinism). Look it up.
Romans 7 tells why the elect whom God has given new hearts and been made a new creature with a will that is no longer enslaved to sin, still sins..
We are in this body of flesh still, and will not be freed from "it's" desires until we are resurrected to our glorified bodies. Why not mention that main point, unless it messes up the contradictory nature already applied.
The other main foundation is the 'so decided' love of God and it's required application. There is plenty of exegetical material of the meanings of the commonly misused texts for the Arminian view of salvation. Why is this not refuted through their own exegesis of the scriptures to show the Calvinist view wrong? And tulip wasn't created by Calvin, it was created a long time after by people trying to make the main points easy to follow. And the systematic theology of Calvin wasn't called Calvinism till long after his passing, by others wanting to easily refer to reformed theology, of which Calvin's work was the most enduring and well read.
Human reason is foolishness. When is he going to quote scripture?
It’s easy to talk Against Calvinism, it’s another thing to stand in front of one and debate one. He needs to debate James White. Waiting
That would probably be embarrassing to watch. Dr. White is extremely competent and consistent in his theological positions.
Jerry Walls has debated in the past. James White has a tendancy to lash out with ad hominem attacks when he is pushed into a corner on this issue. JW's pre-suppositional apologetics in use against athiests is downright embarrasing. The reformed side has better. Both Jerry and James could tone down the retoric a little...
Where oh where is the Scriptural foundation to what Wallis propounds??!! This is not theology. This is humanist philosophy
Mark Rogers Walls was not making a case for some non-Calvinist view. Anyone who is honest can agree that, given certain interpretations of scripture, a case can be made for Calvinism, Molinism, or Arminianism. To break the interpretive deadlock, we can turn to philosophy and logic which shows us the incoherence of Calvinism. Even Calvinist scholars have come to recognize the “mysteries” and “paradoxes” that their view logically leads to.
He points you towards 3 further videos that discuss the theology of his argument. See the last few minutes of this video for the details.
I agree, during all of his passionate rantings and ravings, not once did I ever hear him address the Biblical argument for Calvanism.
This seems to be the consistent opposition with people making Willis' argument.
To follow Armenian logic, it sure is a good thing Noah decided to choose God, cause it sure would have been very awkward if God waited for Noah to build the Ark and Noah chose not to build it.
@@phillwithskill1364 The problem with the Non-Calvinists perspective is that it seeks to do away with the mystery. God has done the best He can. Some sinners respond properly because they are somehow more spiritual, humble, intelligent etc. than other sinners. God responds to their decision but controls nothing because He doesn't want to violate the sinner's free will. There is no mystery. For Paul, and the rest of those who are willing to believe what the Bible teaches, there will always be mystery. He wrote, "O the Depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable are His judgments [decrees] and His ways [the providential outworking of those judgments] past tracing out."