First Pattern 1865 Allin Conversion - Trapdoor Springfield
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- / forgottenweapons
As the US Civil War drew to a close, it was quite apparent to everyone that muzzleloading rifles were obsolete, and any military force wishing to remain relevant would need to adopt cartridge-firing weapons. However, the Union arsenals had a million or more muzzleloading rifled muskets still on hand. How to modernize the weaponry without simply throwing away all those existing guns?
The task was put to Springfield Arsenal master armorer Erskine Allin in 1865, and he devised a "trapdoor" style of conversion to turn an old Springfield muzzleloader into a breechloader. He had the benefit of having seen the previous year's extensive trials of breechloaders, but the final product was his combination of what he judged to be the best elements of the ideas available.
The result has long been known colloquially as the Trapdoor Springfield, and this 1865 model was the very first of them. It was still in .58 caliber, and used a rather complex extractor system. It would soon be revised to make improvements to it, and ultimately a .45-70 model became standard for US infantry and cavalry forces - and remained their standard until the adoption of the Krag-Jorgensen in the 1890s.
I really wish Rock Island would spring for a set of plastic dummy rounds in a bunch of historic calibers: it would really be cool to see the action of some of these old guns in... well, in action.
+ToastyMozart With 3D printing I would think someone out there could make them fairly affordably.
@@brucetuller Have you made your fortune with this idea yet?
@@hambone307 how would someone make money off an idea that everyone with a cheap tool can make at home 😂. Anyone interested enough to invest into something like this has the money to get a 3d printer and do it themselves and the amount of people wanting this is so little that you wouldn't make money doing it
Ingenious conversion
ingenius
It seems that the hammer was bent inward to reach the firing pin. The original percussion nipple should have been further outward, can somebody confirm?
+Funny Farmer No, I just checked. The original rifle did indeed have a hammer that was bent over the top of the rifle like that. I think maybe the face being ground flat might make it look a bit different.
I have this exact Springfield 50-70 rifle. My great grandfather found this rifle hidden up in the rafters of the ceiling in Fort Lowell Tucson in the early 1900’s. The rifle was passed down to me and I will pass it down to my son. It’s the only known weapon to actually come from the fort at this time.
Came here from you comment on other channel.
Nice weapon
That's really cool I have a knife from WW2 and a camera to
This Exact one? It is for sale, but you say it will stay in the family, i am confused.
The 1865 isn't a 50-70...
@@eifnsmwkc mine is. It’s a conversion to 50-70 from cap and ball. 1864 to 1866 they were done.
I have been a tool maker for over 30 some years and what they were able to machine back in the late 18 hundreds is amazing , a great deal of hand work and shaping went in to those conversion , I have a second Allen conversion trap door and that one has a sleeved barrel at 50 cal . those where some real old world crafts man .
$3,750 is an absolute steal for this firearm imo. Beautiful condition, beautiful rifle, and extremely historically significant. Someone had a good day.
I love when armies convert old rifles into something new.
I’m so excited to watch this video!!!! I can’t stop jacking off to start but I’m on my 3rd try. 28 seconds in, let’s goooooooooooooo
I am always surprised by how well some of these 100+ years old guns hold up. I mean the wood on this gun looks super well conserved, and so does its metal finish.
Most of that is just keeping the gun clean. Springfield muskets we're left in the white, so as long as it's kept from rusting, there is no finish to wear off.
@@coltonregal1797 Your comment made me realize that i have been following Fogotten Weapons for over 10 years now :')
Damn i feel old
Damn i am old :(
Agreed, Isn't it amazing!
Old muskets and rifles are some of my favorite weapons from a visual design perspective.
Allin was a supremely gifted machinist and engineer. That’s a hell of an upgrade to a metal tube.
ian should have a tv show on the channel that actually plays real history
+Helter Smelter Is there one of those channels still? :)
+Forgotten Weapons Was History Channel ever broadcasting real history? I might be too young for this.
+Puse pre-2007 it was solely historical.
Daniel Calzada Well considering I turned nine in 2007, I wasn't watching too much of it, especially in Finland.
+Puse Sort of. Back in the early 2000s, History Channel had some historically accurate shows. Note I qualified that statement with "some" because it was still rather hit and miss.
These days, the closest thing to real history is on the Military Channel (or whatever they call it now) in the form of "World War 1/2 in Color."
can't wait for the allin conversion - trapdoor progression video. Remember you promised!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 9:00
Did he drop this video?! I NEED TO KNOW ASAP!!!!!!!!!!
Ian, may be we can 3d print some dummy cartriges for showing purpases! If you have blue prints for cartriges or accurate description I can print some for you, i have to shipped it from Moscow, so it can take some time.
I've always wanted a 3d printer, but not sure I can afford one. Is it an expensive hobby in Russia?
+BurnThePope0514 Good friend of mine is running a print office, and from time to time we print some 3d stuff. it's not very popular for a few reasons: 1) Russia economy in a bad spahe, so people trying to minimise unesesary expensess.
2) Becouse you have to make or buy a 3d model first.
3) Most people just aren't familiar with this technology, they don't really have any idea about advantages it gives.
+Lokfuhrer Reloading books (such as Lee Reloading Manual) usually give specs for the cartridges so that reloaders can confirm the rounds they have loaded are within spec. I would look for one of those first and see how close you can print to match. My worry would be the tollerances you can print to, but if you kept it a bit small it should work. If you have access to a firearm or range you should see how the prints work before sending them.
I love how ingenious and efficient these were. Really didnt require that much work to convert it. Nowadays I think the Gov would just scrap them and start from scratch (after spending millions over the course of a decade testing new designs of course)
Material is cheap and labor is costly nowadays. Back when they did these conversions, the opposite was the case.
58 cal?? Jesus that's a whopper! And I thought the 45-70 was a fat cartridge. I have an 1884 trapdoor carbine and I was wondering if it would be safe to put 45-70 gov into it. I heard somewhere that carbine specific ammo was made in 45-70 with a lighter powder load, but it would be cool to find something that works well. I've never fired it but its in really good condition so I'd like to try sometime.
obviousman214,
See if you can get in touch with Gary James through Guns and Ammo. I'm sure he can guide/ advise you
20 rounds per min. Verses 3 rounds per min. And you dont have to stand and expose your self. Good choice!
damn, just imagine how grateful they must have been in '65 to just fling in a 58 rimfire and not spend the next 20 seconds loading a new fukiin bullet
Yep. Even worse, spend those precious 20 (or more) seconds reloading only to have it misfire due to damp powder, or many of the other things that could go wrong while attempting to "reload in nine times" under duress. Coming from a muzzle loader, a trapdoor would have seemed a godsend.
And image how pissed you would be facing a magazine fed rifle just ten years later with a slow loading single shot rifle. (i.e. Little Big Horn).
Pretty cool, and the M1873 Springfield Trapdoor would see use right up through 1892 or so when it was finally replaced with a repeating bolt action. By 1892, the French had their Lebel for 6 years, the British had their Lee Metford for 4 years, the Germans had their M1888 Commission Rifle for 4 years, I believe the Swiss had their Schmidt-Reuben for 3 years, and of course the Russians had their M1891 "Three Line Rifle" Mosin the year prior.The Lee Metford's .303 British still used black powder, but I'm fairly certain that 8mm Lebel, 8mm Mauser, 7.5 Swiss, and 7.62x54r all started out as smokeless powder cartridges.
8mm Lebel DEFINITELY started out smokeless, it was basically THE first smokeless cartridge to be used in a widespread capacity, and I think it was also the first to use FMJ, though I think full metal jacket is a Swiss design. Smokeless powder, which has of course been in use for the past 129 years, having been THE standard type of powder for well over 100 years, is a French design, I think first called Poudre B or Poudre D... I think. It's the morning, haven't had my coffee, memory is a bit fuzzy. I can tell you however that the pronunciation of B and D in the French tongue is basically 'beh' and 'deh'.
The US Army still fielded more M1888 and rearsenaled M1873 Springfields in the Spanish American War (1898) than M1894 Krag-Jørgensen rifles. By the 1920s, I think people were binding three or four of them together and turning them into standing electrical lamps. Ugh...
ian your videos are awesome. you have a great knack for making history and engineering advances very interesting. keep it up! :D
always love when a new video gets uploaded. keep up the good work.
Simply amazing that all the parts still function so well after so many years.
Springfield WOOHOO
+Homer Simpson Big fan. Glad you're here.
How's bender?
have you stayed in touch with Peter Griffin?
Its been 8 years Ian, I need a Model 1866 .50-70 video.
Ian, what are you going to do after you've reviewed every last old and interesting firearm ever made?
+bdockett As the years pass on and videos are made, other weapons become forgotten. :)
he'll move on to swords and pikes
This is the one unicorn I have yet to get for my collection. The Allin Conversion is my favorite trap doors. Every one I've seen to date have been horribly beat up.
I just bought an 1884 .45/70 trap door! Have not shot it yet! I am a civil war reactor. So it was an exciting purchases!
While some might question why the military abandoned the tests of new guns and went so strongly for converting existing muskets, in many cases after a brutal war, civilian governments downsize their military and slash their budgets. That doesn't leave much to work with, so bravo to Erskine Allin for his work.
Growing up I actually had one hanging in my bedroom. Sadly I was dumb and let it go far to cheaply as I was married and constantly needed cash to support the now ex-wife.
This in hindsight is a common thread with men we get married or have ltr that cost us what later would have given us nice wealth. Makes one ponder. What would have been if we’d avoided woman.
That's in amazing condition for a 150 year old gun. Any idea what the ammo might run for these days?
+elfinfluff Vintage rimfire .58 is rare and expensive.
24 gauge brass shotshells cut back
As per the Enfield snyder
😢😮
these breechloading conversions are fascinating old guns. it was an early form of recycling and made sense economically .
IMHO, I would say the Snider was a better stop gap ML conversion system with the exception of the cartridge construction. I can believe the Trapdoor was still used in the Span-Am and Philippine wars. The Trapdoor should have only been used until something better was created within a few years. Such as the Martini
@@browngreen933 Not exactly. The US was prepared to fight other European style armies also armed with large bore single shot rifles. Even as early as Little Big Horn, many indian braves had repeating arms such as Winchesters, Spencers and Henrys.
Be fair, it's the same concept. Only difference is caliber and how the breech works.
Didn’t the Allin conversion infringe on pattens held by Col. Berdan? As well as the .58 caliber rimfire cartridge used in this conversion?
Berdan's company sued the US government about this. Not sure Berdan got any royalties back though.
en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_v._Berdan_Firearms_Manufacturing_Company/Opinion_of_the_Court
It's an amazing bit of post engineering! I've never seen this before and have to say it is a very innovative and elegant way to convert an obsolete mechanism into a more useful one while minimizing the loss factor of existing materials.
I would say the British Snider conversion beats out the Allin.
@@kirkstinson7316 because the design was developed in a US Arsenal (by a government employee being paid to make the design), the govt didn't have to pay royalties for the patent... I get the feeling it was less about the Allin conversions being "better" and more about them being cheaper (patent royalties vs no royalties). Mr. Snider was an independent designer, and held the patent for his design, the brits thought enough of it to buy it. Governments historically (and still do sometimes) liked to hold "competitions" to "evaluate" future designs for things... only to turn all the submissions down and then "design" something based off of the notes they took on the submissions... so they don't pay patent fees. Comes back to bite them from time to time though, look at the German 1888 commission rifle and the US M1903, as examples.
What stops the extractor from grabbing the spent case when it shoots back forward? Something I'm missing?
+MrDoctorCrow The extractor only pushes against the rim of the cartridge - it has no way to pull it back into the chamber.
I can't get over how great the condition is of that rifle. It's just gorgeous. I've got an 1873 Trapdoor (made in 1875, I think that) that I love dearly but is pretty beat up. That's fine for me, I bought it because I wanted to shoot it, but I'd love to get something a bit prettier like this one day.
Please.do the video with the progression! I have an1863/1870 in 50- 70
I am currious why Ian would say that the hammer on the Allin Conversion was not modifed in anyway from the hammer on the muzzel loading Springfield? The hammer on the original had to hit a percussion cap that was on a nipple situated on the side of the gun exactly where the release lever on the conversion now sits. In contrast the hammer on the conversion hits a firing pin on the centerline of the barrel, meaning, it has to be a different hammer.
Thanks for the information on the M65 1st Allin Conversion. I just purchased one on your 23 August 2024 Bedford auction, this information helps greatly.
Best Regards;
Phil Anderson
That thing is in gorgeous shape for bright white steel that is 150 years old. I have a replica 1842 musket and that thing is soo hard to keep from rusting, at least during the humid months around here.
Absolutely fascinating! I own a pretty basic 1873 Springfield cut down "carbine" that was done very well long ago. I wish I could afford a real one but that's not happening and my carbine is almost as cool, to me at least. I've been fascinated with the old civil war, Indian wars, old west era guns ever since growing up watching old westerns with my father. Thanks much for the great video, getting to see such an amazing gun up close and learn it's story was great!
I have a clone collection, they are not originals, BUT i can imagine and did not have to take out multiple loans to buy my collection
@@stefanmolnapor910 nothing wrong with that. Mines an actual 1873 built in 1886 IIRC but when I bought it the prices were far lower. Because mines a cut down, I paid around $400 for it but you couldn't come anywhere near that price anymore. One of these days maybe I'll get a carbine that started out as a carbine. From what I can tell from current prices, the original carbines (and rifles) are about the same price as the replicas from Uberti and Pedersolli.
My grandma has an 1865 U.S. Watertown musket from the civil war and it wasn’t converted so it’s an original civil war musket
The United States made a huge blunder converting these obsolete muzzle loading Springfields to trapdoor breech loaders. The War Department could have easily sold muzzle loading surplus rifles off as surplus to ongoing wars in Latin America.The War Department had already tested out the superior Remington Rolling block rifle design. The Remington Rolling block design became one of the best rifle designs of the later 19th century. The Remington Rolling block could handle smokeless cartridges with its strong design. The Remington Rolling block rifle design was fielded in a large variety of cartridge calibers. At least 1.5 million Remington Rolling block rifles were sold to Latin American countries but also to African, Asian and European countries.
The Remington Rolling block's simple robust design proved ideal for conscript militaries including rear area security jobs during the First World War. A good trained soldier could shoot about ten to twelve rounds per minute and shoot a sustained rate of fire of eight to ten rounds thereafter. The Remington Rolling block could put down a good rate of fire with its ejector for the empty cartridge. A thought exercise would have been to have a 19th century US Army infantry company with two thirds of the soldiers armed with Remington Rolling blocks in .45-70. The remaining third of the infantry company would be armed with lever action Winchester rifles in some pistol caliber cartridge for higher volumes of fire with some pump shotguns after the 1880's.
On the off-chance I will get a reply:
Did Model 1777 musket ever got a trap-door conversion? Or any real conversion beyond smoothbore musket? I can't find the information anywhere and who else would know better about obscure French guns than Ian. I know that in late 1820s a new rifle was introduced, but I'm curious if Model '77 ever got any sort of conversion done prior, even for some limited trials.
I love the old metal stocked guns. I know creature-comforts aren't very manly, but come on, after a few hours anyone's aim would start to be hampered and some serious nerve damage could develop.
Was it a sniper or infantry weapon?
Pretty and neat. Don't care how Europeans try to downplay it, the US invented advanced modern manufacturing.
Watched 6 30 22
Man doing the re-machine rework on these was rifles was like an art. Great piece there. Great review.
I always feel educated after watching you.
x
So, if the manually-operated locking lever is not in the correct position, would it act as a safety, preventing the hammer from reaching the firing pin?
+Jason „cyberspace entity“ Doe i was asking this myself too! looks like the little pin extruding from it leans against the housing of the firing pin...
+Jason “cyberspace entity” Doe Certainly looks that way, that extra piece of the locking lever sits in between the hammer face and the face surrounding the firing pin. My guess is trying to fire it that way would cause the hammer to hit the lever and maybe partially open the breech as well. Nice little touch when you think about it. Allin certainly knew what he was doing.
OddballSherman Yes! Given the era, and the primitive by modern standards base design, I expected a "modernising" conversion to be quite awkward, at last when it comes to ergonomics. Well, it seems to be surprisingly well-thought-out instead!
this and the snider are awesome conversion guns
When they drilled things in 1865, how did they do it? I assume there weren't any Black n Decker battery powered drills...
Very carefully.
they still make reproduction muzzle loaders, could someone sell conversion kits? i like my 1884 springfield, wouldn't mind having a nice and shiny one though.
Uberti makes modern production Trapdoor Springfields
Found one of these at an antique store for 800 dollars. Worth it?
I have a 50 or58 caliber trap door that resembles a carbine but no sign of a Saddel ring ever and the trigger guard has a hole for a sling swivel, 1863 on the lock assembly and model 1870 on the trap door r with an eagle head and crossed arrows . I need to know more
E mail is all small leaters
Lovely explanation of the mechanics
I have a 1853 type Enfiel with a trapdoor design of Hiram Berdan. It was stamped, Patentened Feb. 27 1866
I bought a ( what I believe to be a Springfield trap Door 45 70 rifle). On the side plate where the eagle was it looks like it was planed off and the name that was stamped on it now is Black Diamond. Has anybody heard of that? Serial 330779. I feel that somebody was sporterizing the old gun.
So if the earliest models had trigger and firing pin springs then so should the later models right? I have an 1884 in 45 70. Not knowing much about the rifle at the time I bought it, I assumed those springs weren't necessary. Perhaps I should do more research before I damage the poor thing. Thanks Ian👍
Hi From NZ. Really enjoy these videos with Ian. He is a treasure house of knowledge !!! Only hope RIA dont erase the videos after the auction. Thanks !!
Would it be possible to review the 1884 and go over the 1884 surplus parts being built into new rifles? I know 1884 dated breech blocks weren't made by Springfield but who made them?
any plans for the 2nd pattern Allin conversion? I'm quite sure that my pap has one. He said it was his dads. its definitely not 45-70, so I would assume its 50.
I think that extractor arm could have been modified to have a bar connected to the hammer to cock the hammer in one motion of opening the door. A very simple trigger block safety could've been added to replace the lack of a half cock. Not much more cost at all. But I suppose a bit more susceptible to parts breakage if designed poorly. The increase in rate of fire would be quite alot though.
Probably just as well that breech loaders were not intensively deployed during the Civil War, as neither side would likely have modified their typical battle tactics to allow for the massive increase in firepower.
What happens if you fire the rifle without locking the chamber? Does it simply backfire, or does it have some kind of mechanism to prevent that?
Please, can you show rounds for that kind of conversion?
+Schmunzel57 Was it an all brass cartridge or partly paper? The bullet a round ball
ore Minie' ore... ? I can imagine that they trialled different ones.
+Schmunzel57 www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_026.htm
Oh, thanks!
I hope you can go and visit that museum in Gratz one day. Would be enugh stuff for 50 videos. www.museum-joanneum.at/landeszeughaus
+Forgotten Weapons A hundred bucks per shot?! That makes my .454 Casull look like I just sweep strays under the rug.
If they had this technology earlier. Yes they had repeaters, but you could not get the heads of US Ordnance to see that tech's potential. If they had trapdoors, it's closer to the "norm" they are use too.
I saw one at a Illinois gun show for $700. a 50-70 second model allin conversion.
It's astonishing how well these rifles age. This thing is 150 years old and looks better than some replicas. Definitely a testament to how well these things are made. I wonder if we'll ever see the same phenomenon with newer rifles.
Metallurgy has come a very long way since this rifle was developed. Well made modern guns can last much longer than their 19th century equivalents, the reason this trap door is in such good shape is that no one has taken it out and fired it over & over again in a very long time.
ostiariusalpha Yeah, I didn't think of that. I wonder when the last M4/AK will finally break apart.
Jungles of Asia still use m16a1s
you should definitely make a video about the Dreyse-Zundnadelgewehr if you ever find the gun
It would be interesting if you had shell casings to actual show how well the extractors work
I have one that came from a church in Oklahoma they had four of them for honor guard the sites were set at 400 yards after checking th S N they were from the National Guard the one I got for the a hundred was a great shooter
I don't know what it is but I am drawn to single shot breach loaders, but repeaters do nothing for me.
सर ईसका बटन कि सटिग कि विङियो बनाये
can you do more conversion guns video. If you can find them. That will be so so cool.
Some friends and I are look at this gun and building it for me as a airsoft version. We just gotta learn how it works
Very interesting and informative video Ian. Great job as always.
That's a work of art...simple and beautiful.
the locking piece has also an extension on the left side which serves as a hammer safety when the bridge is not locked
I own an 1864 trapdoor.
Very cool video thanks Looking at a 1866 trapdoor
Are there any examples of the cartridges that these rifles used to be found?
+Robert Ling www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_026.htm
+Forgotten Weapons It is shorter than the almost similar caliber snider .577 cartridge. It has less bp charge than the snider either?
I've never seen an American military rifle that I wanted until this one. Very neat.
as an old friend of mine would say, "that allin feller sure knows his onions".
Great job, I love this channel. Best regards from Poland.
cheers for your input on the great wars live stream the other day ian
really nice
Man I love your videos, soooo interesting. Thanks
That is some very complex machining!
You should review a Needham conversion if you ever get your hands on one, certainly a forgotten weapon...
Agree ! And it has the added historical cachet of being used by the Fenians to try and invade Canada.
Im so in love with this fucking gun
I purchased a 1888 Springfield Trapdoor. By than they were smokeless. When did they make the transition from black powder to smokeless?
Even if your rifle can handle smokeless powder loads, it was never intended for them. The Krag-Jorgensen rifle was the first American military rifle to use smokeless powder.
+Bladsmith Yeah I'm fairly certain you're right. By 1888, many developed nations around the world were using smokeless powder, what with 8mm Lebel, the brand spankin new 8mm Mauser, the 7.5 Swiss that would be coming out next year, and the 7.62x54r that would be out in 3 years. Though some liked to stuck to black powder; the Lee Metford which came out in 1888 used black powder, and would be found to be no good for smokeless because the rifling didn't hold up well. That's when the No.1 Lee Enfield (MLE: Magazine Lee Enfield) came out in 1895. I have an 1896 model myself.
So the Americans actually had a smokeless rifle 3 years before Great Britain did, however Great Britain had a repeating bolt action with a 10-rnd mag 4 years before America finally adopted their first repeating bolt action. A lot of development happened in the late 1800s, and I personally consider it the start of the Golden Age of Arms Development. Roughly 1886-1960.
From repeating bolt actions of both smokeless and black powders, to LMG development, to SMG development, to both assault rifles and battle rifles being designed at almost the same times, to the advent of polymer and aluminium use in firearms, to name some of the major improvements that happened in this time. Though really, since about 1955, very little has changed except for more use of polymer/aluminium as well as the standardization of rails so as to attach accessories. Whatever gas system or locking mechanism you look at now, chances are, it's been around since 1945 or earlier. Long stroke piston, short strong piston, direct impingement, blowback, delayed blowback, roller delayed blowback, rotating bolt, tilting bolt, reciprocating charging handle, non-reciprocating charging handle, closed bolt, open bolt, cock-on-open, cock-on-close, straight-pull, aperture sights, post-and-notch sights, fixed optical sight with graduated points for various distances, chrome lined barrels... modern designs have basically been taking existing technology and making it lighter, more resistant to weather, and more easily accessorized.
I don't think a MAJOR arms breakthrough will come about until a new type of ammunition is figured out that doesn't rely on the metallic cartridge, powder, and primer anymore. What that will be? No friggin clue, but as we stand right now towards the end of 2015, it's the best we have available, we don't know how to get better. There's been tinkering done with caseless powder, but it's yet to be done in a successful and practical manner. In 1886, the French Lebel practically made every other Military rifle in the world obsolete with its smokeless powder, FMJ bullet, and magazine which allowed for repeated fire without a reload. It might yet be decades or centuries before we see such a monumental breakthrough such as that. Like the advent of the flintlock, it took hold around the world, and would not let go for WELL over a century.
In fact yet again it was a French design, and I think they used it for over 200 years from 1600 up until the early-mid 1800s. At the time, flintlock muzzle loaders were the best in the world! There was nothing conceivable that could be more practical! Wheel lock seemed like a cool design, but I dare say it was complex to use, and required a special key in order to wind it up for each shot. Lose the key, and the musket is rendered useless, at least I think so... either way, surely there's a reason why the flintlock took over the world while the wheel lock fell into obscurity like the OLD standard of the day, the matchlock.
Wow, almost 151 years old.
Sweet conversion and great history!
I used to have one of these...
Sigh.
ur a boss forgotten weapons
They saved a lot of taxpayer's money by modifying existing rifles. Not bad.
That is also true. As always, people at the top forget what the real truth is for people on the ground. And not only in the military.
TiglathPileser3 .....Until the bolt action, single shot, high power rifles were definitely the most effective for standard line infantry.
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