Isn't kenrith itself a hate bear for the combo? Let them mill their library And on response to the oracle's trigger force them to draw one card. As long as you have him And enough mana they can't go for the combo
If kenrith is out they just wont mill there entire deck since thassas oracle states if you have cards equal to or less than your devotion you win the game
@@The505kai In response to Oracle you have them draw a card before the effect resolves, so that the card they draw isn't tied to the Oracle. They would then lose the game.
As long as you have 6 mana you are ok. Use two to put a counter on the cephalid, triggering the Mill And forcing that player to end with a empty library. Then you can make them draw.
Glad you made this! it's refreshing to see this mindset towards oracle(since i've seen so much hate/advocating for a ban. The fun of cedh(to me) is trying to play the most powerful cards and beat the most powerful cards, the challenge is the fun part!
another aspect of thassa's oracle is that it has it's own devotion. you can leave 2 cards in you're library meaning that angel's grace doesn't necessarily beat the oracle unless you also have a removal spell that beats every counterspell in the opponents deck as they will have all but 2 cards in their hand
My playgroup isn't cEDH but man we love your videos! You have forever changed the way I pronounce Derevi because of one of your other videos. Anyway, nice card collection and keep up the good work with the videos. Much love my Eastern European homeboy
Also... another great card against thassa is teferi, time raveler. With his static ability the opponents only can cast spells at sorcery speed, that means they have to play first the consultation or tainted pact and you have better options to stop it with cards like spell pierce , dispel, etc or later stop the thassa's cast with spell snare and they can't do anything in response because teferi
Good to see stuff like this. It's better to adapt to changes in the cEDH meta than to sit still and complain about it constantly, since we can't rely on the RC taking the necessary action to address those complaints. Should Flash still be banned? Yes, probably. Banning it would increase deck diversity and viability. It's also just not fun to play against for a lot of people (which is probably a more persuasive argument with respect to the RC). And I'll advocate for that ban, but in the meantime, we'll just have to adapt and overcome.
Trickbind is another good option in blue- only one more mana than Stifle, has Split Second, and also turns off activated abilities of the target for the rest of the turn
Tale's End also works against Thassa's Oracle. It counters triggered abilities, activated abilities, and Legendary spells for two mana. Seems very good for cEDH. I added it to my Yarok deck and countered a Dockside Extortionist ETB trigger that my opponent cast. Felt good!
Yeay this card isen't that narrow as stifle is. Its a good card. And vs some deck the best why to deal with that deck is to kill the commander over and over. Gitrog is a good example. So this is good vs both gitrog and Thassa.
I just found your channel, all I have is Oloro-ageless-ascetic at the moment, but I did just pick up kenrith I think he might become my new focus! I learned alot thank you!
Only recently just started watching your videos, but I got to say, I am very impressed how well you can explain everything! I am not nearly on this level, but now at least I understand what's going on 😂
There actually is a pretty solid way to get around Angel's Grace. All it requires is Dread Return in your deck. If you put your opponent on Angel's Grace and they don't cast it in response to the Hulk trigger, you can now pile Breakfast & Grand Abolisher & Dork, mill yourself and Dread Return the Oracle and win. If they do cast the Angel's Grace in response to your Hulk trigger, you definitly don't lose to it now, bc you can see it coming and can still very easily pile into a Labman pile that wins off of a cantrip on the next upkeep.
Khe Loc what if they don’t cast to your hulk trigger but wait until your Thassa trigger, and the activate Nimble Obstructionist’s cycling ability (e.g.what Mons described)? Grand Abolisher doesn’t prevent this, as it’s a card in hand not a creature (on the battlefield).
@@anywhereroam9698 Sure, that works but I'm not convinced that Nimble Obstructionist will actually see play, as it's essentially a 3 mana stifle (which you could also get for 1 mana) with minimal upside.
Well if you wanna have something cheap you can play trickbind. 2 mana split second. Same mana as delay/negat but this can't be stopped. I guess the answer depends on your deck and how much mana you in generall have. 3 mana is a bit for an interaction that is true.
What about aven mindcensor type effects, (shadow of doubt, strangehold and even mindlock orb). This is only good against flash, but if you let the flash trigger result they might put grand abolisher into play
Couldnt you do something like that combo with something cheap like foster and lets say tasigur and thassa Oracle in your deck or on the bottom of the library?
Huge fan .Can you make a video about tainted packed mana base on a low budget and medium budget and full expensive for 3-4-5 color decks (or even 2 if possible) ?
Playing cards like Silence or Orim's Chant in response to one of the pieces is pretty good also, and just 1 mana. To at least buy everyone a turn to deal with that person.
Ive been really enjoying your Sisay Superfriends deck. Will you add anything specific to it in order to counter this strategy? It seems like there isnt something you can fetch that would stop them. Or will you be moving over to Kenrith? Thanks for the great video!
It is actually really hard to stop it. But I have an idea of what we could do. But there is a chance that SIsay just won't be able to handel that combo at all. Jet I am not giving up on my Sisay jet.
While Playing T&T with flash hulk and Consultation with Oracle I lost to a Ilhard who killed me on turn 2. Does this mean that aggro can sometimes work against these decks if it's really pushed towards that direction?
Only issue is that C-Priest stops you from doing similar things. Also it doesn't stop them from simply casting T.Oracle and responding to their own trigger with D.Consultation. C Priest i's a strong counter to Hulk Flash though as you are trading 1W (and getting a 2/2) for 1U and two now-useless cards, plus preventing other players from executing similar combos on later turns.
I believe the idea is that everyone is aware of that, which creates a Mexican standoff. In this stalemate, you would try to profit by doing stuff like activating thrasios or kenrith to get ahead and have more resources ready for when rule finally gets destroyed.
It is also a reasonable counter here. I think Stifle being just "U" is key but having any/all three in the deck isn't unreasonable. Also Stifle/TrickBind on a critical fetch land is huge. They're not just useful in terms of stoping hulk.
You'll have some games where they can threaten the win turn 2. But the majority of the time if they try people have enough interaction. The major this is about what's being played around this. This is the 4th channel i've seen where they talk about beating the oracle's win combos. It's not hard to hard but it is definetly warping others around it albiet not by much since a lot of these cards would see play anyways. (Hushbringer,aven mind censor,teferi time raveler,angel's grace,counterspells) it definetly encourages a blue/white stax playstyle. But that doesn't count the other colors out really. I don't really think flash needs a ban but I can definitly see why others want it. These last 2-3 years have had Edh see such a big changes that I think this deck will eventualy just settle in with the other decks of the format and not be considered tier 0. (Remember hermit druid?)
The problem with stealing someone’s Thassa’s Oracle via Praetors Grasp: the owner of the card can scoop upon that creature spell on the stack. But at least that would at least rid of one opponent.
I wonder what is the consensus among cedh players about tactical scooping. I always felt it was bad sportsmanship, but it is within the rules so there is not much that can be done about it other than casually house ruling it.
@@purpleganja2 I've never seen something like that happen. All the Thassa's Orcale decks do have alternate ways to win too, so scooping to a Praetor's Grasp would be scooping to a Thoughtseize in modern or something like that.
@@tarotplz9702 I Think the op meant scooping to someone winning by casting your own oracle, not just having it exiled face down (you would have to search your library to be sure it is oracle). Either way the owner of the oracle would lose, but scooping prevents the owner of the grasp to win. Anyway, my comment was about tactical scooping to deny something to someone killing you in general. Do you think it is bad sportsmanship or is it a valid thing to do when you are about to die anyway. Is it different from casting a last spell to hurt the one killing you with your last resource? Or to deny a win with a pact you can't pay? Personally, I have nothing against last breath casting, at least it was played with game resource and not just exploiting the rule about players leaving the game. If it happens tho, I roll with it.
@@purpleganja2 Ah, I get it. Yes, that would be considered to be bad sportsmanship. Precident can be found in the pact of negation out of spite discussion, where someone casts a pact of negation with no way to pay for it and no way to get to a state in which they can pay for it. These sort of situations are so unpopular bc they are mostly considered king-making as the next player typically just wins right after that.
Hi . Can I share my deck list ? And maybe you can take a look and gave me some suggestions . As my play groups have 4 flash hulk decks . ( Including myself )
in mono blue you can play paradigm shift and Thassa's oracle. I know paradigm shift is worse since its a sorcery, but it is an option, I'm going to try it at least, I want a win-con in my locust god deck that doesn't require my commander to be out. that said, I don't play cEDH so I'm guessing that the fact that its sorcery speed makes paradigm shift bad? you cast oracle first, then paradigm shift, let both resolve and you win.
Honestly, the RC not banning Flash has made me lose interest in playing EDH at all. I enjoy playing strong competitive decks, but enjoy lots of variety. The fact that cEDH is pretty much 'solved' at this stage makes me think it's best I take a break from the game until the fix something. I quit standard years ago when Caw Blade was all you saw at FNM, now it seems all I see is Flash Hulk.
I would like to recommend budget cEDH. Set a limit to a let says 100 dollars or Euros. I think you will get a metagame that will work out. Sure most of the flash hulk sushi hulk cards are budget. But demonic tutor isn't. Just a suggestion.
@@cedhtv The largest issue I've encountered is that my LGS has prize support for our weekly pods. Honestly, I'm fine with high powered decks, ones that require good play, strong threat assessment, and smart tradeoffs. Sushi Hulk, along with Demonic Consultation variants, remove the need for smart and steady boardstate management in lieu of 'oops I win' type plays --it's just not fun at all.
@@cedhtv I know alot of us would love to buy some cEDHTV merchandise and it would be advertising for your channel. Playmats, shirts ect. Keep up the good work man, you make the best primers around
2 things that makes this video unnecessary if there wouldnt be asshole edh players: a) building a competetive deck in multiplayer b) building a deck specifacly against a deck in your playgroup! and yes if you do any of those 2 things u just want to win and not have fun with people!
Isn't kenrith itself a hate bear for the combo? Let them mill their library And on response to the oracle's trigger force them to draw one card. As long as you have him And enough mana they can't go for the combo
Hahaha. I didn't think about that. it was right infront of me. I guess vene I can't think of everything! Setting this comment on the top!
If kenrith is out they just wont mill there entire deck since thassas oracle states if you have cards equal to or less than your devotion you win the game
@@The505kai In response to Oracle you have them draw a card before the effect resolves, so that the card they draw isn't tied to the Oracle. They would then lose the game.
Quintin Arnold what he’s saying is the library total wouldn’t have to be 0, they could just leave 2 cards
As long as you have 6 mana you are ok. Use two to put a counter on the cephalid, triggering the Mill And forcing that player to end with a empty library. Then you can make them draw.
Glad you made this! it's refreshing to see this mindset towards oracle(since i've seen so much hate/advocating for a ban. The fun of cedh(to me) is trying to play the most powerful cards and beat the most powerful cards, the challenge is the fun part!
This man, with his expert knowledge of the cEDH community, always helpful and always sharing his insights, what a gift!
another aspect of thassa's oracle is that it has it's own devotion. you can leave 2 cards in you're library meaning that angel's grace doesn't necessarily beat the oracle unless you also have a removal spell that beats every counterspell in the opponents deck as they will have all but 2 cards in their hand
I may not play in a meta that sees these fast combos, but I still do like to see the interactions
I guess the interactions are good vs other metagames too soo.
My playgroup isn't cEDH but man we love your videos! You have forever changed the way I pronounce Derevi because of one of your other videos. Anyway, nice card collection and keep up the good work with the videos. Much love my Eastern European homeboy
Also... another great card against thassa is teferi, time raveler. With his static ability the opponents only can cast spells at sorcery speed, that means they have to play first the consultation or tainted pact and you have better options to stop it with cards like spell pierce , dispel, etc or later stop the thassa's cast with spell snare and they can't do anything in response because teferi
I beat the deck by playing casual edh.
charlie scourbys ikr “competitive decks often are not built to deal with strong casual high synergy decks.
I like how your T-Shirt clarifies only one letter from the whole CEDH TV shtick.
Good to see stuff like this. It's better to adapt to changes in the cEDH meta than to sit still and complain about it constantly, since we can't rely on the RC taking the necessary action to address those complaints.
Should Flash still be banned? Yes, probably. Banning it would increase deck diversity and viability. It's also just not fun to play against for a lot of people (which is probably a more persuasive argument with respect to the RC). And I'll advocate for that ban, but in the meantime, we'll just have to adapt and overcome.
Thank you.
Trickbind is another good option in blue- only one more mana than Stifle, has Split Second, and also turns off activated abilities of the target for the rest of the turn
Cannot wait to see you play with the new very loopable titans and gameplay with underworld breach.
Tale's End also works against Thassa's Oracle. It counters triggered abilities, activated abilities, and Legendary spells for two mana. Seems very good for cEDH. I added it to my Yarok deck and countered a Dockside Extortionist ETB trigger that my opponent cast. Felt good!
Yeay this card isen't that narrow as stifle is. Its a good card. And vs some deck the best why to deal with that deck is to kill the commander over and over. Gitrog is a good example. So this is good vs both gitrog and Thassa.
yahoo thanks a lot for this
I was waiting for a Primer for Thassa's Oracle
Excellent assessments TY
I just found your channel, all I have is Oloro-ageless-ascetic at the moment, but I did just pick up kenrith I think he might become my new focus! I learned alot thank you!
Your welcome.
Only recently just started watching your videos, but I got to say, I am very impressed how well you can explain everything! I am not nearly on this level, but now at least I understand what's going on 😂
I am glad you like it.
There actually is a pretty solid way to get around Angel's Grace. All it requires is Dread Return in your deck. If you put your opponent on Angel's Grace and they don't cast it in response to the Hulk trigger, you can now pile Breakfast & Grand Abolisher & Dork, mill yourself and Dread Return the Oracle and win.
If they do cast the Angel's Grace in response to your Hulk trigger, you definitly don't lose to it now, bc you can see it coming and can still very easily pile into a Labman pile that wins off of a cantrip on the next upkeep.
Khe Loc what if they don’t cast to your hulk trigger but wait until your Thassa trigger, and the activate Nimble Obstructionist’s cycling ability (e.g.what Mons described)? Grand Abolisher doesn’t prevent this, as it’s a card in hand not a creature (on the battlefield).
@@anywhereroam9698 Sure, that works but I'm not convinced that Nimble Obstructionist will actually see play, as it's essentially a 3 mana stifle (which you could also get for 1 mana) with minimal upside.
Well if you wanna have something cheap you can play trickbind. 2 mana split second. Same mana as delay/negat but this can't be stopped. I guess the answer depends on your deck and how much mana you in generall have. 3 mana is a bit for an interaction that is true.
Its so refreshing to see some cEDH content that isn't just doom and gloom about sushi hulk.
There is always light in the tunnel. ANd I think it's better to think about solutions and problems.
was waiting for a vid like this ,thanks for the content mons!
Your welcome.
of course you can counter any split second spell if you use void mage apprentice morph ability or any trigger like counter balance
Trickbind works too!
ways to make your opponent draw a card could also be a counter to oracle such as cephalid coliseum or mikokoro center of the sea
Kenrith as your commander.
What about aven mindcensor type effects, (shadow of doubt, strangehold and even mindlock orb). This is only good against flash, but if you let the flash trigger result they might put grand abolisher into play
Also ashiok, dream render; but that can be easily destroyed
@@hugodiazroa Any search is great. Absolutely awesome. but we have been playing those cards forever so I didn't think it was news.
Couldnt you do something like that combo with something cheap like foster and lets say tasigur and thassa Oracle in your deck or on the bottom of the library?
Well if dig that much it will work but I don't think Foster is that good.
The problem is that fish hulk is basically threatening a win on turn 0 which leads to extremely awkward play.
And thus Demonic consultation is spiking now.🤣
Huge fan .Can you make a video about tainted packed mana base on a low budget and medium budget and full expensive for 3-4-5 color decks (or even 2 if possible) ?
Hmm I guess I could do that but I am not promising anything. I have made a lot of promissis and I have to make those that I know I can keep.
You are clever, nimble obstructionist is a great card in this meta against thassa's oracle
Playing cards like Silence or Orim's Chant in response to one of the pieces is pretty good also, and just 1 mana. To at least buy everyone a turn to deal with that person.
I love "defet"ing cEDH decks
you could go for eggs, like teshar but with extra red stuff.
if you end up wanting black too you could switch to akiri & tymna.
Ive been really enjoying your Sisay Superfriends deck. Will you add anything specific to it in order to counter this strategy? It seems like there isnt something you can fetch that would stop them. Or will you be moving over to Kenrith? Thanks for the great video!
It is actually really hard to stop it. But I have an idea of what we could do. But there is a chance that SIsay just won't be able to handel that combo at all. Jet I am not giving up on my Sisay jet.
Great content as aways.
Also I see a chance to say "There are only 4 things men want and it's disgusting" joke.
While Playing T&T with flash hulk and Consultation with Oracle I lost to a Ilhard who killed me on turn 2. Does this mean that aggro can sometimes work against these decks if it's really pushed towards that direction?
Did aggro win, or just take you out and then lose before being able to take out the table?
How ... did ... Ilhard kill .... you on turn 2? And just like GodwynDi asked. Did the aggro deck win?
@@cedhtv Kinda, The Ilhard did me in but a krenko deck impact tremors ed everyone to death the next turn.
Do you mean Ilharg?
How did Ilharg kill you turn 2??
Thank you.
I wish i could like twice for that prequel reference in the intro
Trickbind is also a really good way to "stifle" the Thassa's oracle trigger. I don't think you mentioned it.
It is a good card and I didn't meantion it.
I guess I need to enquire how to get that shirt...
What about containment priest to counter hulk combo ?
That works too. A good meantion.
Only issue is that C-Priest stops you from doing similar things. Also it doesn't stop them from simply casting T.Oracle and responding to their own trigger with D.Consultation. C Priest i's a strong counter to Hulk Flash though as you are trading 1W (and getting a 2/2) for 1U and two now-useless cards, plus preventing other players from executing similar combos on later turns.
Rule of law is such a gutsy play in an instant win flash meta. Once everyone has played something in a turn flash player is free to roam.
I believe the idea is that everyone is aware of that, which creates a Mexican standoff. In this stalemate, you would try to profit by doing stuff like activating thrasios or kenrith to get ahead and have more resources ready for when rule finally gets destroyed.
Do you sleeve your sleeves?
haha yes you could say that.
Long and Grindy game
Kenrith and Thrasios: We got our babe Seedborn.
No love for trickbind? Seems better than the bird to me because you can't stiffle it and because it's 1 Mana less...
It is also a reasonable counter here. I think Stifle being just "U" is key but having any/all three in the deck isn't unreasonable. Also Stifle/TrickBind on a critical fetch land is huge. They're not just useful in terms of stoping hulk.
I am not against trickbind. I think it is solid.
Do you think flash hulk with oracle is being blown out of proportion? Or do you think it really will become #1?
it has no real bad cards..... and gets to play all the good ones.
other hulk builds had bad cards that were narrow
@@DaimeonShrader I agree. Flash hulk oracle is great!
You'll have some games where they can threaten the win turn 2. But the majority of the time if they try people have enough interaction.
The major this is about what's being played around this. This is the 4th channel i've seen where they talk about beating the oracle's win combos. It's not hard to hard but it is definetly warping others around it albiet not by much since a lot of these cards would see play anyways. (Hushbringer,aven mind censor,teferi time raveler,angel's grace,counterspells) it definetly encourages a blue/white stax playstyle. But that doesn't count the other colors out really. I don't really think flash needs a ban but I can definitly see why others want it. These last 2-3 years have had Edh see such a big changes that I think this deck will eventualy just settle in with the other decks of the format and not be considered tier 0. (Remember hermit druid?)
Hey Mons do you have any Plans to go Magic Fest Copenhagen end of April?
There are plans. But I can't say anything right now. My schedule isn't set in stone jet.
Hushbringer ftw
@Varler There is hushwing gryff and tocatlis honor guard as well if you want more Hate bears .
Grind boss Sisay FTW
The problem with stealing someone’s Thassa’s Oracle via Praetors Grasp: the owner of the card can scoop upon that creature spell on the stack. But at least that would at least rid of one opponent.
If you got people scooping at that... they need to grow up and you should probably never be playing with them again
I wonder what is the consensus among cedh players about tactical scooping. I always felt it was bad sportsmanship, but it is within the rules so there is not much that can be done about it other than casually house ruling it.
@@purpleganja2 I've never seen something like that happen. All the Thassa's Orcale decks do have alternate ways to win too, so scooping to a Praetor's Grasp would be scooping to a Thoughtseize in modern or something like that.
@@tarotplz9702 I Think the op meant scooping to someone winning by casting your own oracle, not just having it exiled face down (you would have to search your library to be sure it is oracle). Either way the owner of the oracle would lose, but scooping prevents the owner of the grasp to win.
Anyway, my comment was about tactical scooping to deny something to someone killing you in general. Do you think it is bad sportsmanship or is it a valid thing to do when you are about to die anyway. Is it different from casting a last spell to hurt the one killing you with your last resource? Or to deny a win with a pact you can't pay?
Personally, I have nothing against last breath casting, at least it was played with game resource and not just exploiting the rule about players leaving the game. If it happens tho, I roll with it.
@@purpleganja2 Ah, I get it. Yes, that would be considered to be bad sportsmanship. Precident can be found in the pact of negation out of spite discussion, where someone casts a pact of negation with no way to pay for it and no way to get to a state in which they can pay for it. These sort of situations are so unpopular bc they are mostly considered king-making as the next player typically just wins right after that.
Hi . Can I share my deck list ?
And maybe you can take a look and gave me some suggestions . As my play groups have 4 flash hulk decks . ( Including myself )
Sure. post a link here.
tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-01-20-oracle-hulk/
@Varler thanks for the advice ! Will rework on my list after CNY . 🙂
how to defeat them? with trickbind ofc
I recently banned thassas Oracle in my playgroup but we play homebrews with no budget.
in mono blue you can play paradigm shift and Thassa's oracle. I know paradigm shift is worse since its a sorcery, but it is an option, I'm going to try it at least, I want a win-con in my locust god deck that doesn't require my commander to be out. that said, I don't play cEDH so I'm guessing that the fact that its sorcery speed makes paradigm shift bad? you cast oracle first, then paradigm shift, let both resolve and you win.
This guy is strangely handsome...
i will take that as a compliment :)
@@cedhtv absolutely :)
Being knowledgeable in EDH is pretty hot.
Honestly, the RC not banning Flash has made me lose interest in playing EDH at all. I enjoy playing strong competitive decks, but enjoy lots of variety. The fact that cEDH is pretty much 'solved' at this stage makes me think it's best I take a break from the game until the fix something. I quit standard years ago when Caw Blade was all you saw at FNM, now it seems all I see is Flash Hulk.
I would like to recommend budget cEDH. Set a limit to a let says 100 dollars or Euros. I think you will get a metagame that will work out. Sure most of the flash hulk sushi hulk cards are budget. But demonic tutor isn't. Just a suggestion.
@@cedhtv The largest issue I've encountered is that my LGS has prize support for our weekly pods. Honestly, I'm fine with high powered decks, ones that require good play, strong threat assessment, and smart tradeoffs. Sushi Hulk, along with Demonic Consultation variants, remove the need for smart and steady boardstate management in lieu of 'oops I win' type plays --it's just not fun at all.
Im offended with all the mana rock and spells masterpieces you have, but Thassa's Oracle is just a regular foil and not extended foil.
Correct I wanan w8 untill it drops a bit.
nice shirt nerd
Thanks!
Defet oracle with hulk 👍
Yo lemme get one of those shirts Mons
Hmmm I guess some patreons could get one. Now I need to learn about shippments.
@@cedhtv I know alot of us would love to buy some cEDHTV merchandise and it would be advertising for your channel. Playmats, shirts ect. Keep up the good work man, you make the best primers around
I will keep this in mind.
I know how: ban flash
This guy literally dumping thousands of dollars of cards in front of us. lol
2 things that makes this video unnecessary if there wouldnt be asshole edh players: a) building a competetive deck in multiplayer
b) building a deck specifacly against a deck in your playgroup!
and yes if you do any of those 2 things u just want to win and not have fun with people!
It's simple really, you ban flash. Lol
Well that is what happend soo.
@@cedhtv That's why it's funny!
@@cedhtv Also, yes. I laugh at my own jokes. Someone has to!
Fix the title.
Fight fight with fire. There is absolutely 0 reason to play other decks, barring budget.