Are you a fan of my training style, but can’t travel to Kentucky to see me in person? No worries! I offer an awesome online dog training course, which includes access to an array of exclusive videos and content, personalized coaching, journaling, and in-depth mentoring and evaluation by yours truly! If you just need some an advice or have a couple questions you need answered, I also offer professional consulting by the hour. Both of these great services can be found here: www.kentuckycanine.com Thank you all for your remarkable support over the years! I cannot express enough how grateful I am for your appreciation and patronage of this channel, my training style, and my kennel. Always remember, it’s a great day for a puppy-sized adventure! -Stonnie Dennis
I assume this is a show line / American bred GSD. Working line GSDs don’t have that disgusting body structure. Having a working line GSD and a Malinois compared to one another would create much less distinction.
Fantastic work Mr. Stonnie, now that you have been showing the puppy development series, and that you have puppies, it would be awesome if you could make a video about choosing a working puppy for protection and see all the process. As your puppy development series is very in depth and useful, I am sure that if you make a series or video about choosing a working puppy it would be equally wonderful...
My dad used to be a K9 handler (for special military units) and I can say first hand that the energy difference is not a breed thing - well, it is but when comparing the GSD and Mal it isn't - it depends on the dog. I've seen my dad work with GSDs with way more energy than Mals and vice versa. Both breeds are hyper energetic breeds. Also, I want to add something my dad taught me: Before they were recognized as a breed, the German Shepherds were just simply called "Sheepdogs" by Farmers and people of West Germany. They weren't originally Orange and Black coated, they had a fading, shaded grey coat with black and light brown tints, the same kind of colors Eurasian Wolves have. The orange/black coat comes from companion and show bred dogs, right before they got recognized as a breed, as "German Shepherds." in late 1900's. There are still native working lines with grey coats all over Europe and are bred mostly by people breeding working dogs, working GSDs. The orange/black coated GSDs can be and are used as working dogs but they are nowhere nearly as energetic and as driven as native working lines. The native European working line GSDs, recognizable by their grey shaded coats, are often more overwhelming than Malinois and are prefered by Police and Special Military Forces due to their higher body mass and larger heads (for stronger bites.)
Hi my name is Jason and I've had German Shepards most my life and Gus looks very handsome but I think he's headed for hip problems so sorry to say .hope I'm wrong he's way to young to put down but maybe rethink what you want out of him because jumping climbing stairs isn't good for his hips . I would recommend swimming and other low impact activity and keep his weight down as much as possible my heart goes out to you my friend good luck with Gus he's buitiful and looks very handsome . Bella of course is looking like a well trained fur missile she's perfect
@@dave2471 Exactly. It's why I support the UKC and not the AKC. The American Kennel Club is the biggest one in the nation and they focus on superficial standards to the detriment of the breeds. On the other hand, the UKC focuses on health and function; genetic and bone structure issues can disqualify dogs there, but cosmetic ones that dogs get from doing their jobs such as chipped teeth or scars don't count against them at all. I can't respect anyone who breeds unhealthy dogs.
It looks to me like the German Shepherd is injured or has bad hips. The breeders of GSD dogs have a lot to answer for by going for the exaggerated slope of their backs to please show judges.
As someone who has had GSDs since 1974, there are a lot of other points to consider in this comparison. A big boned male GSD like Gus will completely mature physically at about 3-y yrs of age, while the female Mal will mature physically much earlier, by 2. Comparing 2 mature dogs of the same gender would have been more fair, imho. Keep putting in the work Stonnie, love your videos.
I agree. Gus is not a working line GSD. Sadly, he appears to be a show ring bred dog. He's younger than Bella and big boned. It's like your comparing apples to oranges. Gus shouldn't be exercised too hard until his bones get stronger. Bella could probably run or at least trot this course easily but "Jethro" would be slow and uncoordinated, poor thing. He needs to go play and just be a puppy for a couple of months. I have a working line bred who needs some obedience training if you want to try him out! Haha, he needs more exercise!!! Love your obstacle course!🙂
@@StonnieDennis I'd also add that Gus is built for colder climates than Bella, he'll get hot and tuckered much more quickly. Also it takes a lot of energy to grow, and GSDs have a ton of growing to do. I think your analysis was still correct though, Malinois are just more agile dogs, and if that GSD is from a show line then he was bred for looks at the sacrifice of health & fitness (a shame).
That's good news. My German Shepherd did not have those sloping hips. I got her from a rescue. I think it was a veterinarian that commented that she was from a different line and I think they said it was Alsatian. She was a beautiful athletic dog. Perhaps someone can comment to that and let me know if this is true. I think it's terrible what breeders have done with show ring German Shepherds. I don't even understand why people like the look. And it's horrible for the dogs because if I'm not mistaken I think this contributes to hip dysplasia.
@@MsPilgrim123 it's interesting to hear some people called the German Shepherd and Alsatian. It is a German Shepherd. The term Alsatian came about during the world Wars, when Germany was not in good standing. People didn't want to call their dogs German anymore so they called them Alsatian. Probably a working line German Shepherd that you had. It comes from many different lines, Czech, Slovak, eastern or ddr.
That poor GSD, he's an absolute tragedy. His back end looks like it could collapse at any moment. Show breeders have a lot to answer for, I hope they think the rosettes and trophies make it worth while.
I prefer GSD's over Malinois but I don't compete them. Mals are just too much intensity to me. I like the look of the German shepherd. I like that they are bigger and beafier. This Shepherd looked horrible though in my opinion. I hate show line ones. The angulation is just horrible! It has no function to me. That was actually painful to watch Gus do the course. If I were to pick this mal and shepherd I would pick the mal.
I too felt bad for Gus watching him, he's not bred to be a successful functional dog physically, maybe he will grow into better proportions as he ages, but if not I hope his owners just want a great companion and house dog, it would be unfair to ask him to do much more. He looks like he'd be a great snuggler though!
Those show line shepherds are hard to watch. My 10 1/2 year old working line GSD still hauls ass up and down a set of stairs, and chases a ball just as hard as she did at 2, and she's a 100 pounds
Can't compare a show line GSD with a malinois. This is not a good example. He should know better. Malinois are workung dogs so bring on a working line GSD and compare. Any of my son's workung line GSD - even the "retired" ones - would have outshined this malinous.
@@loretaylor7539 I'd say its fair to compare, as most GSD's these days aren't from working lines (sadly). On the other hand, 100% of Malinois are from working lines. Even working line GSD's will have a hard time keeping up with a good Malinois, but they make up for that by not having the insanely high-maintainence energy levels of a Malinois. They're also just bigger; it takes a lot more energy to move an 100lb body than it does to move a 50lb one.
@@loretaylor7539 Rarely do dog trainers know better. Even most (most, not all) veterinarians have no idea what they are talking about. I'm a biologist with a specialization in Zoology and my main focus were mammals, focusing on canids and ursids. I got all my licences for conservation and for training and handling. My father was a K9 handler for special military forces, he stopped working about 6 years ago, which is when I started my education and work about domestic dogs - that's also when I first hand the chance to see how little do dog trainers and veterinarians actually know about the natural physiology of domestic dogs (and about animals in general.) Most Universities get their books from non scientific sources, I even saw one Dog anatomy & physiology book being made in collaboration with Royal Canin... Hmm, I wonder what they wrote and recommended as a natural diet of canids in the nutrition section of the book... Surely it isn't Royal Canin. Surely they wrote prey based diet and plant matter. (Sarcasm.) I take care of my dogs myself, I am more than qualified to do so, apart from the medical aspect of it, however to all you owners out there, I recommendnd you don't trust any dog trainer or veterinarian without AT LEAST a Biology branch and/or a Zoology degree. Most of learning about physiological, nutritional and behavioral information about canids (and other animals) is done in university programs under these two degrees. Another big plus is if you see someone with a Mammalogy branch degree. I would not trust a dog trainer, a vet or anyone else handling my dog or recommending things to me, if they don't have at least one of these three degrees as proof of their qualification and knowledge. For example, a veterinarian or "a dog nutritionist" without a Zoology degree recommending you what to feed your dog, is as good as you asking a drunken hobo in the back alley what to feed your dog. Take care people! Be smart!
I have a working line shepherd that is super athletic but he is only about 80lbs not like the gigantic American Shepherds. I think a nice video would be working line verse american show lines.
I purchased a dark sable Working Line German Shepherd from a breeder out of the Netherlands and he looks different than the Shepherd in the video. That dog looks like my neighbor's showline German Shepherd with that hind leg slouch. I also have a Mal from the same breeder and they're just different but mostly the same.
We had a GSD a few years ago. She came from a Rescue, so her pedigree was not fully known, but as best we could figure she was likely from Czech working lines. Once a guy asked me what breed she was, then proceeded to argue with me that she was “no German Shepherd” when I told him. I presume he thought all GSD should have that deformed rear end, which she did not, although I did not waste the time to dig into where his misconception came from.
Personally, I think they did a disservice to GSDs when they started working for that sloped hindquarter. To me, the mechanics don't work as good as a straight-line hindquarter.
@@StonnieDennis Here in UK I have working line GSD. She's gold sable in colour, not dark [lot of black]. from 8 weeks, and again today at nearly 2 years she is mistaken for a malinois but to me she has the best conformation, and the best movement I've ever seen. I bought my 1st GSD in 1979, and watched with horror what we called "hyena" Shepherds winning. I was there for Obedience
@@StonnieDennis Conformation wise my puppy has a flat back and squared off hips like the Malinois, but has the bigger bones like the German Shepherd. So far she's not huge and has stamina for days. We're training her for herding. Thanks for the videos, I appreciate all you do.
I have a 2 year old working line GSD female and a 9 month old male Malinois. I would definitely recommend a chill working bloodline GSD over a show line. She’s a ninja. Super fast and agile. Although he is becoming more powerful, she throws him around in the yard. 😂 Awesome video as usual! Thanks!
Poor Gus is the result of decades of "good" breeding that show lines have dictated. Fortunately, it's still possible to find GSDs that haven't had their hindquarters absolutely ruined by "conformation experts" who decide that unnatural postures and body styles are somehow desireable.
Show breeders use exaggerated traits for conformation because there is no functional breeding requirements for them. Additionally many idiotic owners find those extreme traits appealing.
@@analarson2920 If the GSD at least had the standard of being IPO1 titled for breeding like in Germany I dont you would ever see such exaggerated features.
So many thoughts... (1) You are truly a fearless man, Uncle Stonnie, to instigate this discussion. (2) I’m thoroughly impressed with your community members, who are nearly all “calm, attentive, and polite” in their replies. Practically unheard-of in my online experience, especially when it comes to these two breeds. (3) LOVE that you use the same techniques with people that you do with dogs. As I read your replies, I keep seeing you taking a pup back around to a challenge and urging him to engage it a little more thoroughly each time. No intimidation, no smack-downs, just a gentle, persistent encouragement to try harder. (4) Several times I’ve seen GSDs in your videos and they remind me of giant beetles with rounded backs and little scurrying legs. (5) My first dog was a GSD, and I was blown away by her almost-human ability to understand and communicate with me and suite her mood to mine. (6) I wonder whether it will be the despised “backyard breeders” who save the GSD, in the end. The ones who know them and love them and don’t care about winning titles. (7) Finally, some of this discussion reminds me of discussions about identifying plants-i.e. when can it be called a species, and when is it just a variety? If the dog no longer fits the breed description, is it still that breed? Perhaps true German Shepherd Dogs are extinct?
Insightful comment. I have pondered this many times myself. I am an enthusiast of all Shepherds, particulary the German Shepherd. I do love Malis and Dutchies. In general, I feel that the German Shepherd is better suited for an all around utility dog. In general, the other shepherds are better suited for full-time military pursuits. There are exceptions to every rule. These days, every time I see a German shepherd usually from a show line, I want to tell people that that's not a true German Shepherd. I do agree that it is like a completely different breed then what they were intended to be and I almost wonder if calling them something else would be better. But then, that would only encourage these horrible breeders to continue breeding these deformities. I feel that perhaps the only solution would be: the public needs to stop patronizing these show line breeders; working line breeders need to continue in their efforts to maintain the true German shepherd dog and not sacrifice health and function in favor of looks; finally, and most controversially, perhaps the registry needs to open up again so that standing studs can be out crossed to stable, healthy, and athletic dogs without papers in order to restore the vital elements of function and health. This is what they do to knpv dogs to maintain the highest standards of function and perhaps should be done with some lines of shepherd. I know that 100+ years ago, the true German Shepherd used to have brindle colors because it was regularly mixed with the Dutch Shepherd and Malinois. Closing the registry and show rings have gone a long way to destroy the noble and great German shepherd dog. If there's another answer then do tell. I'm only trying to find the best solution to restore this almost mythical breed.
@@primalcritters Here's the way I tend to see it -- in extreme over-simplification: really good dog breed + publicity = popularity popularity + professional breeders = high price popularity + high price = status symbol At this point, you have people purchasing a really good dog breed in the most expensive form they can afford because they want to be known as the sort of person who owns a ____ type of dog. They soak up popular culture about the breed and have the shibboleths on hand to demonstrate their own membership in the Popular Breed Club. Most people like to believe they have chosen this breed because of its wonderful qualities--and of course that's part of it--but many more are influenced by what sort of people own these dogs and what it would say about them to own such a dog. (Before we start mudslinging, let's look closely at our own habits. Most of us own a number of things that, at least in part, serve as status symbols. Of course they are generally not completely divorced from our other values. We may choose American/import cars because that means something important to us. We may choose clothing labels for what they say or don't say about our values, social position, work ethic, etc. Nothing wrong with this. Just important to keep in mind that we make these decisions within a social context.) status symbol + time = exaggeration of easily-recognized features (bikinis get smaller, truck tires get bigger, McMansions get bigger until suddenly they are no longer a status symbol and then microhouses become popular and grow smaller and smaller until it's hip to live in an expensively decked-out van down by the river...) The poor show-line GSD seems to have fallen prey to these exaggerations. I don't have a real hopeful outlook because these elements are so integral to human society. Different dog breeds become fashionable at different times, and it generally isn't good for the breed overall. I feel like the show-line GSD is on its way out of style (in favor of the Mal?) and then the breed may have a chance to recover. Breeders just looking for high prices will turn to other types of dog; breeders who care deeply for the GSD may feel more free to add some new genes to the pool. In the meantime, for those of us who get our status elsewhere, how do we lend our energy to the breeding of healthy GSDs and refrain from accidentally adding steam to the current runaway GSD trend?
@@primalcritters I've had a new name for the show line since I noticed the horrible breeding practices take over. They are no longer GSD, they are now GDS Geneticly Deformed Specimines. So sad.
Oh, poor Gus. It makes me so sad to see what has happened to German Shepherd Dog's breeding. These breeders are ruining these dogs conformationally, and the people who end up with them are in for a world of heartbreak. His back end is going to be trouble for him his entire life unfortunately.
@@jfkst1 Read my post where I explain the difference. If you are in the US you are probably referring to American show lines. Here they have a slight slope.
Your videos gave me the confidence to take on a 9 month old rescue Malinois 15months ago. I spent days building a small challenges course which, even first time around, was no challenge at all. LOL. Some 4 wheelers are better at doing stuff than others and I guess its the same with dogs. Thanks for the effort you and 'the cameraman' take making your videos. Much appreciated.
Great video stonnie, one thing to consider here is that Malinois are a working breed. The GSD you shown looked more like it was from show line stock, so it’s more a comparison between working and show lines. Working line shepherds if breed well are still very similar to a malinois. 👍🏼
To explain that I have to give a brief history recap. In the late 1800’s Max von stephanitz standardised the GSD breed or what we now know as the working line GSD. To him the most important features of the dog were intelligence and physical capability, beauty wasn’t something that was on the agenda at that point in time as these were military dogs. The GSD breed that he standardised were highly intelligent, confident, good levels of aggression, had a straight back, high hocks, slender and agile with good stamina. Very much similar to the malinois of today. Over a period of time there were three main GSD’s developed, the East German, West German and Czech lines, all had slightly different characteristics but still held the original vision of the GSD at the forefront of their breeding practices. After WW2 there wasn’t as much of a place for these dogs within society. To give these dogs a purpose they started showing them at dog shows, once this happened beauty was at the forefront of these breeding practices and intelligence and physical ability weren’t as important. Over a period of time with selective breeding the backs became more sloped (to make the show stack look more impressive) the hocks got lower to the ground and they became less confident. Fast forward to present day there are still breeders dedicated to preserving the original GSD whether that be East, West or Czech line. These dogs are called working line GSD’s. In tern the dogs that have been breed for show are called show line GSD’s. I hope this makes sense! I personally own a Czech working line GSD and have worked with a few show line GSD’s there are a lot more health risks with show line GSD’s as a general rule but that aside they are both great dogs in their own way it just depends on what you want in a dog but in my opinion they are almost two different breeds entirely. Hope this helps.
Josh said it perfectly. The show line gsd has been so distorted that it can’t move like it should. I prefer the Mal or a working line gsd that has a straight back and hocks that don’t hamper the dog. I feel sorry for this dog looking at it move. Bella is a much healthier looking and moving shepherd dog.
Great comparison Stonnie......Bella is a much healthier looking specimen of a shepherd. She moves freely and easily whereas the GsD is hampered by his sloped back and exaggerated angulation, especially in the hocks. Interesting video to see the difference! Thanks!
I have watched this five times and learned something different each time. I think the biggest takeaway is that one dog has confidence and the other doesn’t, which seems due to the body type, size of feet slope of the back etc. Great video Stonnie.....and super conversation starter....boy, did you get some good feedback. Now half of the viewers need to go back and watch the video again, at least four more times as I did. Thanks for the comparison lesson!
Poor Gus looks to be disconnected between his mind, the front legs and the rear legs. He looks more like a crippled old man, rather than a growing pup. American breeders have done the breed a dis-service. This was once a great dog.
Great videos. I have a Belgian Malinois, 10 months old. She starts at 0530 and is still going strong at 2100. She is strictly ALL GO and NO STOP! At 68 Y.O. this will probably be my last dog, but she sure is a great one. I have owned GSDs and Malinois all my life, both are great animals, fine protectors and loyal companions. I've found dogs remind me to be kind, forgiving and trusting...unfortunately, I don't always see that in people. Keep up the great work!
You need to engage her mind. Mixup the excercise with obedience and bite work. I have 2 and one is my service , protection and we compete in PSA. The puppy was a rescue and she is also smart , but she has a turn off switch, however , she sees a Decoy and my Mal doing bite work she switches in to a rapture. She is already doing obedience , agility and some but work. She has KPVN lines in her. Interesting as both my Mals are different. I train her different than my Mal who is high drive all the time. Lots of work, but worth it!! Best dog I have ever owned.
It does say Conversation Starter in the title- I appreciate that as one who wants to hear more about many breeds. Not everyone is an expert dog person. I am not, here to learn.. Appreciate all the perspectives and comments to help learn more and make good choices for dog responsible ownership- thanks!
I am watching the video and reading the comments sitting comfy on the couch. All this and playing fetch with my 8mo mal😂 Thanks to Uncle Stonie he brings the ball to my hand.
I love the Mal's physical stance--they're like the SUV of the dog world and can be trained to work almost anywhere from water to farms to battlegrounds. But for most folks looking for an athletic companion dog, I think the Mal's drive/energy is too high and shepherds would be easier to handle. I'm blown away by how controlled Bella is... I'm guessing she put in 10 miles of romping before this course to check that energy😀
It started on the first picnic table, Bella stance was relaxed and Gus's rear was in a bind, stressed, weakened etc. Bella gait was smooth, strong and confident. Gus steps were clumsy, weak and faltering.
The GSD walks and stands like there is a problem with his rear legs, or he's in pain, or fear, or something. I'm not a GSD person. Is that normal for them?
He's a "show line" GSD. Some breeders really exaggerate the slope of the hips. Check out Tori, who won Crufts' Best of Breed in 2015. It's not likely he's been injured (although obviously I don't have enough information to attest to that for certain).
@@creativeallison686 looked 2015 up. Wow. I am shocked that dog lovers think this looks good. I always thought of GSD as athletic and unstoppable! As long as they keep winning, it won't change. $$$
@@vbetta8979 2015 is taken out of context. Sherds are shown running hard [pulling] on a slip lead under the jaw. This forces the front end up and the croup, hips down, exaggerating the angulation. The topline is still not good in all of them at that show.
We chose a Belgian Malinois over a GSD for this exact reason. We've always LOVED GSD's but we really wanted the healthiest most physically fit dog and after lots of research we found a great reputable breeder, Cook Farm Kennels in North Carolina that breeds GSD's, Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois. They produce very stable, clear-headed, good natured dogs from strong working backgrounds with AKC certification. We love our Belgian Malinois, working with her you can absolutely see that Mals have been bred for function and the success of the breed, but if you're set on a GSD just find a great breeder and don't ask your dog to do more than they are physically able to. We would have never taken our pug on a hike, but our Malinois is the perfect hiking buddy!
I'm curious if you ever considered a working line German Shepherd when you went to your breeder or were you just so put off entirely that you wouldn't even consider it.
Thank you for doing this Stonnie we love you. I love both breeds, still I'm partial to the working line German Shepherd the most. But they are killing me with these show like Shepherds and buyers need to stop buying them. Hitting people where it hurts is the only way to get the message across.
A great conversation starter. Thanks for sharing stonnie! I used your videos to train my collie and have since shared them with others. I love when people ask how my dog is so well behaved
The german shepherd look badass in my opinion but the malinois also looks pretty nice but in a different manner, she looks slim and agile, of course if I need it a dog for working I would go for bella but I only need a dog for walks or running personally and that looks cool if health is not compromise on the dog.
The comments on this video are almost more interesting than the video itself. We recently brought home a GSD puppy, so I've been going through all of your old videos. As much as most people don't want to admit it, i think what you've shown here really is a fair and accurate assessment of the average GSD. It's unfortunate but this is the type most often encountered when shopping for a registered GSD in America. It was a significant challenge for us to find a working line GSD with both good conformation and temperament with solid parents who had good health certificates and proven qualities without having to start looking out of country or spending more $$ than most average american families just looking for a pet/companion dog are able to justify.
Hey Stonnie, thanks for giving us 2 videos in one day! And I have no dog in this fight over the types of GSD’s, but it’d be interesting to see a comparison between them the way you’ve done withField Labs vs English Labs.
My local balanced trainer also said that his Mals (or were they Dutch Shepherd??) were like GSD’s on speed, and at his age he would never get another because they were too much hassle 😂
Oh I know what the word means....I just meant I would love to see it explained in an “Uncle Stonnie” video/common sense way with his fine dogs showing the difference in a dog that has good propioception and one still learning his way. Bella is a great example of one who has found her best way to go!
My used to be a K9 handler (for special military units) and I can say first hand that the energy difference is not a breed thing - well, it is but when comparing the GSD and Mal it isn't - it depends on the dog. I've seen my dad work with GSDs with way more energy than Mals and vice versa. Both breeds are hyper energetic breeds. Also, I want to add something my dad taught me: Before they were recognized as a breed, the German Shepherds were just simply called "Sheepdogs" by Farmers and people of West Germany. They weren't originally Orange and Black coated, they had a fading, shaded grey coat with black and light brown tints, the same kind of colors Eurasian Wolves have. The orange/black coat comes from companion and show bred dogs, right before they got recognized as a breed, as "German Shepherds." in late 1900's. There are still native working lines with grey coats all over Europe and are bred mostly by people breeding working dogs, working GSDs. The orange/black coated GSDs can be and are used as working dogs but they are nowhere nearly as energetic and as driven as native working lines. The native European working line GSDs, recognizable by their grey shaded coats, are often more overwhelming than Malinois and are prefered by Police and Special Military Forces due to their higher body mass and larger heads (for stronger bites.)
I agree with many of the comments here. My first GSD came from a show line, he was huge with a sloped back. The next 3 Gassy came from working lines. They aren't as big and my current pup has a pretty straight back. He is driven and fast. Loves agility courses. This video is generally a good comparison, wish it included a personality comparison too.
What is your take on the work ethic and ability of “working line” GSDs vs “show line” GSDs? Gus sure is beautiful but I find myself drawn to more of a Mal body shape in shepherds.
My opinion is that Uncle Stonnie just put the precious metal into the refiners fire to purify it so that all of the impurities and dross could come to the surface to be removed. Just my opinion.
My working line never moved like Gus. He wasn’t as agile as Bella but that’s to be expected. It’s hard to watch how Gus struggles with the simple movement.
By the way, thanks for calling me out Stonnie! LOL I am far from an expert but from what I have learned is Working line German Shepherds are bred specifically for work, and more specific for endurance, strength, hunt drive, prey drive.... They are used for police, military and sport. They range in weight from 75-90 pounds and have a great temperament. The back is straight across and not sloped like the American show line.
Wish you had been able to use a working line GSD. The BM hasn't been messed up by conformation and indiscriminate breeding yet. Unfortunately popularity is already taking its toll. I think in general Mals are more athletic. This from a German Shepherd guy. Great video as always Stonnie!
Stonnie, I hope you allow me to ask a question. I'm curious what you said to Gus's owners. Have you discussed the show vs German working lines with them? Love your channel, G-d bless.
Gus is a totally different dog. Looks like G show lines or Am lines a small working Line GSD could be on the same level Thanks for your videos love them. Oh. BTW the Shep has a Gorgeous coat
I would love for GSD show breeders to explain how knock-kneed hock walking and a rear end that needs to be dragged on the ground improves a GSD’s ability to do its job.
It's a perfectly fair comparison. I chose that dog because I knew what the discussion would look like. If I chose a working bloodline GSD, it would be a lot different conversation, no? Although not as different as people are pretending...
@@hops8184 my best friend is a k9 officer who has one I will tell you he told many of times he wish the department would have got a German working line instead of the Belgian I’ll keep it at that completely disagree with stonnie on this
Hi Stonnie...amazing videos... been watching you since ages. Our GSP is trained after your principles...can only say...it works. Git a questions... what kind of training vest you got...can´t find anything similar in Germany. Would be amazing to get a little tip.
stonie, so reading through the comments and your replys am i right in saying you used Gus to spark a conversation about the divide in the GSD breed, people are saying to compare a normal mal to a WL GSD not a badly bred showline? Gus could be a quite common type of GSD and Bella could be a common type of mal so it is a fair comparison if that is the case. however is the problem that the WL/SL divide is too great in america, why are people breeding a dog like Gus who clearly has mobility issuses for the sake of a show ring (i don't know if that is what he was actually bred for) , he probably will strengthin up and become more stable in his rear but i don't think is should be normal for any puppy to walk like that. A dog from Quality schutzhund GSD lines for example is probably more similar to a mal however that isn't the common type of GSD that people are looking for and they are quite tricky to get a hold of, so isn't the point of this video to show the dire state of the common GSD and that we need to focus on just making the common GSD healthy mentaly and physicaly? (i'm no GSD expert, i've got 2 labs, but have i got any of that right?)
Good points made. I have labs also and I think the points you made were fair. Mals have been bred to keep those straight backs, etc. as have working line gsd. While the show line gsd has been bred to have that sloping back....for what reason? the beauty shows?..... not sure why that slope is so popular these days. It can’t be healthy for the hips or the back. Good visual that Stonnie showed us tho....
Gus looks so puppyish compared to Bella, like she has 6 or more months on him rather than just 2 weeks. Let's see how he does in another couple months.
@@TheGrumbliestPuppy you can look at him and see that he is a show line. I have no idea why show judges like the sloped back end on the gsd, but it is definitely not good for the dog.
@@TheGrumbliestPuppy I guess not everyone is familiar with a working line German Shepherd. For the record, they look nothing like sweet poor Gus. Working line shepherds are extremely athletic and don't have weird angles and their legs or sloping backs. They look more like a Malinois but definitely a much more handsome version. Not that the Malinois is not good looking, indeed they are! But a well-bred working line German Shepherd really can't be beat. They are usually sable, the darker the better.
Stonnie, I love all your videos. In this video your comparison is correct. But... I have an 18 month old Mal/Duthcie who is a big boy. Almost 90 lbs and long legs. He was super uncoordinated from day 1. Would get to running and then roll right right over himself. He ended up getting a back leg broke at 5 months old when he awkwardly got run into by a very little dog I had. So he had surgery and just 2 weeks ago had second surgery to help straighten his leg. Fast forward to my adopting a Swedish working line GSD at 8 weeks old who just turned 1 year old. He is so incredibly calculated in his movements from Day 1. He has a beautiful gait and stride. Very smooth. I agree he has a heavier body style but he really has it going on with his speed and movements. So not all GSDs would fit in the category you describe.
From my small sample, a malinois is nothing like a gsd, except they kinda look alike. A malinois has the energy of a jagdterrier or similar with the trainability of a border collie plus they are high strung. Mine is more like a jack Russel because he is show line, still has loads of energy. Maybe I have never seen an energetic GSD, but the ones I have met are pretty laid back compared to the malinois I have met. Unfortunately, there are maremma breeders who say they are just like white golden retrievers. People have to quit seeing dogs for what they look like.
I have a Belgian Malinois that will turn 7 this year. She still has the energy level of a 3 year old. No hip issues, and athletic abilities are beyond amazing. As her vet said, “she is definitely not a couch potato”. I love how eager she is to learn and please. Lots of work on my behalf, but she keeps me active. Best breed in my opinion. (I had two German Shepherd’s as a child, loved them both; however a Belgian Malinois is definitely a dog not for the weary.
NO the AKC and judges should read and understand the breed standard, Including a basic working qualification to be eligible to be shown would also help
I was gonna say isn’t there a difference between working lines and show lines for German shepherds like there is for labradors? I don’t understand how those slanted backed shepherds are supposed to the farming jobs they were bred to do.
@@StonnieDennis ok you’re right not a lot of people use shepherds for farm/ranch work anymore. So when you look at both those dogs for protection work I’d pick the Malinois. Crazy as they may be lol. She was more sure footed and confident on the course.
@@StonnieDennis farm or no farm condemning an animal to suffer for our aesthetic desires is wrong... I'm not plugged into the community but I hope the trends are moving away from "show" animals with health issues and towards actually healthy animals. I grew up with labs, very lucky that they lived to be 15 and 16... Frankly I'm amazed the one that had been used for breeding show dogs out lived the other one, but poor thing was totally freaked out by grass when we got her, and elbows were callused up due to always being on concrete till she got a real home and wasn't just being used to pump out expensive puppies to sell off.
The GSD looks physically disabled, both with the downward slope of his back and worse with the inwards slope of his rear ankles. He doesn’t look like he will ever be able to exercise or work intensely without injury or breaking down. Breeders who do that to animals are unethical, amoral, and the customers creating the demand are just as bad. Sorry, not sorry.
Well.. there's a whole lot going on here... first thing I have is there is more than 1 type of German shepherd. Show varieties, working lines, long hairs... the Mal is one of 4 types of Belgian shepherd. The short haired type. If you look at the longer haired Belgians, they are taller, longer, and they have a different temperament. They almost remind me a bit of Lassie.. lol. It just goes back to what you are looking for in a dog. Guy is going to be a BIG dog. His size alone will be intimidating. I mean look at his FEET! His front paws almost look like hands!! Lol. He is similar to my friends shepherds. They tend to go for the bigger type, sweet but huge. Now, my Mal, she is turning 5. Her breeding was protection and instead of looking tall and lean like Bella (granted year 1 & 2 she looked similar) Alice is a solid 65 pounds which is what a male is supposed weigh. She also has a very deep chest. (Her rib cage is huge). She is, without a doubt, the most athletic dog I've ever owned. Intelligence wise, my experience with both breeds is pretty equal. The biggest difference I have noticed is Alice the Mal, has almost unlimited energy. Whereas, my friends German shepherds tucker out sooner. I genuinely believe it is mostly due to their size. I have seen smaller types that are more similar to Alice and they have energy levels and agility more like her. We choose what we want in a dog. Although even with extra super research, Alice still gives us a run for our money... every day. Don't let your Mal get bored! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
My german shepherd is 5 years old and weighs 74lbs and she still gives us a run for our money we are in our sixties and still can't seem to keep up with her lol we play with her constantly we are retired ❤ so that helps we love ❤ her so much she is our baby
Great observations sir! I believe after more than half a century of turning German Shepherds into house dogs and show dogs from a working and herding breed has produced less confidence. My GSD Mix is a wonderful dog that loves the couch. He’s very gentle with our granddaughters and our other dogs. He can go from sweetheart to Beast Mode when a stranger knocks on our door. Thank you for the great videos.
I am acquiring a malinois about a year old whose owner passed. We think he wasn't treated well because he gets very aggressive and bites when trying to put a collar on. Do you have any tips on working with him so he can see his collar as a good thing and not a punishment.
@@StonnieDennis if i may , the biggest split is between working line and show line GSD's with the show line having far greater angulation in the rear end with the croup being at a much steeper angle ,.the back legs having a much greater bend to them and the hocks in some cases being almost horizontal and. this has come about because the show ring wants the dog to be in an almost perceptual stack without having to be placed in a stack and the show ring also argues that the show GSD is more the true herding GSD (if you believe their guff) . The most extreme line of show GSD is the American show line , though show lines in general tend to be bigger and heavier and in fact there has been an investigation by the SV into why GSD's that are outside the height and weight limits get placed so highly in the show ring. As for the working line GSD , these can basically be broke down into 3 lines , the West German Work Line the Czech Line and the DDR Line. All 3 lines tend to be smaller and lighter than show lines , though obviously larger dogs do crop up from time to time. All 3 lines are certainly less angulated and when stacked the back is slanted , though at a less severe angle than the show line and the back and croup tend to be in line whereas in the show line the croup falls away at an even more severe angle. Then you come to drive , the WGWL and Czech Line tend to have higher drive than the DDR which tends to be slower maturing and have a higher defence drive whereas the WGWL and Czech Line tend to have higher prey drive and do better at dog sports. Obviously a lot of what i have stated is generalisations particularly when it comes to drives. Also it has been stated that the DDR Line no longer truly exists now that it's job of being a border patrol dog for the old East Germany no longer exists. Hope this helps .
Howdy Stonnie, great video on sculpting the training to the dog's abilities. What is a "purebred" dog? Seems to me most all canines are a mix of bloodlines, genetics etc. Aren't they all "Heinz 57's"? Have A Day! ;~)
I have always loved German Shepherds, but the way breeding has caused their hind legs to look and function has really put me off. Its like they already have hip dysplasia to me. That slope seems to be what people want and like, but for me it has become a no-go. If you have ever had a dog go thru hip dysplasia you'll probably know what I mean.
Excellent comparison video. The athleticism of the Malinois was visibly superior, but they're both beautiful animals and I'd love to own either, or both.
Comparison here is not apples to oranges, it instead is apples to brown banana. 😅 as with any breed, if you pick from the right lineage you won’t see such issues.
That's not true at all. A quick image search will result in tons of examples of GSDs and Mals with similar physical characteristics. What is "the right lineage"?
it's a great comparison, is there much difference between dutch shepherds and malionas? i was cringing at gus's hind end it just dosn't look right :( are europian GSD working lines more agile and healthier overall?
Yes. They may as well be different breeds at this point. The euro working lines are pretty similar to mals. I have video of my girl as a puppy doing agility and she's FAST and agile
@@lucielocket3203 thank you. Shes 5 now & has puppies of her own due Easter. The sire is an ofa excellent Czech import who is a cert human remains SAR dog & also very agile. There are great GSD out there but you have to do due diligence in finding them. God knows there are a LOT of crippled, nervous, reactive GSDs out there too
Every once in a blue moon I will see a video of a working line GSD. It's basic body Structure will be more like the mal. But it will have the size and coat of a GSD. From the video's I've seen they seemed abit hyper though. But still not as hyper as the mal seems to be.
This GSD looks like a show line dog. Working line GSDs are very capable & athletic at least from my experience of owning a big bone, straight back, giant paw and coarse coated 90lb trail running, rock climbing machine which used to never get tired. Even at 9-10 years old he moves way easier then the pup in the video. Not sure why current breed standard favors "slanted back", "frog leg" GSDs but I don't think that its a fair comparison b/c such dogs don't look anything like normal, able bodied working line GSDs. BTW, love your videos!
Yes I know what u mean . I have a lab -Rot coon and a Full blooded Coon Hound . Its hard when I take them on walks since the Coon hound has longer legs than the Lab Rot. But There are getting better.
OK I have a mix 1/2 and 1/2 a male and female. They booth talk but the female well not stop some time . Mostly when I come home or get ready to leave . Is this normal? I grew up with shepherds and never had one talk this much.
Poor german shepherd. What a dysfunctional walking pattern. I love these dogs but this obvious disastre caused by breeders over the years... I am planning to have a dog and struggling to find one who would be like GS, the character and/but healthy. Plus I would prefer lighter version, sand colour one. I cannot find any 'replacement'. Btw. Stonnie, I have found your videos by chance (I am from the Czech republic) and I find them very useful. Your approach and behavior to all the doggies you presented is I'd say in a warm and respectful manner. I like it very much. Thank you:-)
Great video Stonnie! I have to disagree with some of the comments, even ddr working line gsds are not as solidly put together as the Mal. They still retain a great deal of angulation compared to a Mal, or a husky, or even a Golden retriever.
Bella definitely has what looks like a more natural and comfortable stance. Gus with that forward bent rear legs looks nice cosmetically but probably hinders it's mobility a fair bit. I would love to have a dog with the physical abilities of a malinois with out the chase and bite things instinct.
Like many GSD's I see these days, Gus looks crippled in the back end. I am much more attracted to the Malinois for the reason, that I remember well with the German Shepherds were built a lot like them and calm enough to be a wonderful farm family dog. the Malinois seems to be bred for the extreme and I think would be very hard to trust on a farm around livestock or be content with just chilling on the porch when there is nothing much going on. Same for the modern GSD. However. The GSD of old will always have a place in my heart. My uncle had GSDs on his working farm. I grew up with one and had another one when my children were born. Both dogs had my heart. Between the health problems with the German Shepherds and the many variations of them , I have not had one in many years.
I have had German Shepherds my whole life and when I decided to get a Malinois I overdosed on your training videos, but my Malinois is an anomaly and is scared of everything since she started having seizures. It sucks because she had sooo much potential.
I’m sorry to hear about your pup; unfortunately what you are describing is relatively common. A good rule of thumb to remember though, is that exercise and anxiety share an inverse relationship!
@@StonnieDennis Oh, I totally agree! We do everything except agility, she LOVES bitework. I wish you were closer to visit, I think she would really like your low to the ground course in this video.
Hi Stonnie from sunny Spain. I have been watching your videos for years, and would love it if you could post a video on a subject that is rarely talked about. I have a 11 month old Malinois male, who unfortunately has hip dysplasia. He loves exercise, but if he jumps to catch a bouncing ball, his rear occasionally collapses on landing. I want to keep him happy, but would love your advice on what activities are safe for a young, otherwise healthy dog with this condition.
@@jusssayin10 Surgery is an option, but due to Covid, work in Spain has pretty much dried up. The litter was requested by the police, but they called the breeder to cancel it when Covid started as they couldnt get the kennels built. The breeder asked if I could help find people to take a puppy as he couldnt keep them all. I managed to find homes for 10, and he said he would pick a "calm" malinois for me. Not sure if there is such a thing. So, unfortunately, after three months I noticed an odd gait in his trotting, and have been quoted around 3-5,000 euros for the op. Sadly at the moment this isnt an option, so I am giving him regular supplements to help with his joints. Fingers crossed he will live a long and happy life.
Hello Stonnie: I see your point but this poor little shepherd is a show line dog with a pretty exaggerated slope to his rear. Could you try the same but with a working line GSD that has a more natural build? I think the difference will still be there but more because the GSD is typically a heavier boned dog and thus less agile not because the GSD has poor conformation for actual work like Gus.
@@StonnieDennis The show line GSD has been bred to meet an aesthetic standard not a performance standard. The exaggerated slope on the rear may be pleasing to show folks ( not me) but it detracts from the dog's overall balance and ability to do what working dogs are supposed to do well. On the other hand the so called "working line GSD" are bred for their ability to perform (police work, Shutzhund, etc) and the exaggerated slope typical of the show line does not appear in the vast majority of successful GSD working dogs. The original GSD's as seen in Max von Stephanitz's book looks a lot like a Malinois with perhaps a bit more bone. Why the standard changed to what it is today I don't know but the divergence comes from the fact that those that really need the dog to perform believe looks to be of secondary in importance. Having some experience with Quarter Horses in my younger days I found the same problem. Halter (show line) QH's were totally different from performance QH's in appearance. Halter QH's had huge bulky bodies, tiny hooves and were totally unsuitable to do the work QH's were meant to do. I never understood the sense in breeding for an aesthetic standard that works against the performance standard but that seems to be exactly what the GSD folks are doing and poor little Gus is a perfect example. I agree 100% with you in that the Malinois is a better athlete and that training methods and expectations must be different for each breed (I think that was the main point of the video anyway) but poor Gus is perhaps not a good representative of the type of GSD that does the same type of work Mals typically do and that many of us own. I am a huge fan of yours and liked the video (if I lived closer I would have asked you to work on my GSD) I just wish you would do a repeat video comparison with a GSD pup that was built more like what we consider a performance GSD so we can see the differences between two good representatives of each breed. I hope this response is helpful.
There are many well bred GSDs out there that perform well, but even then they aren't as agile as malinois. Stamina I'm not so sure about (in good working bred dogs), most malinois go a lot harder because of their drive so can burn out quicker. It'd be more fair to test a working example of each breed, the show bred GSD is often a physical wreck, American show lines probably worst of all.
@@StonnieDennis Because a good balanced GSD is such a great family dog, that made the pet market very lucrative. Many years of GSDs being bred with no selective pressure has led to unhealthy and physically/mentally weak dogs. Luckily there are still plenty of good kennels and breeders who do the right thing. Malinois are completely different to GSD, they are a very poor choice of pet for most people and so are more often bred for performance than as family pets.
Yes you're so right !! Now my smaller Shepherds are very Athletic, Mine definitely do not have that angulation at all. Am I male is big but he's really athletic he does a lot of jumping but not nearly as athletic as my smaller females are. Problem is people are keeping these German Shepherds in crates all the time and they're not getting any muscle and they're spay and neutering them when they're freaking puppies and their bones don't form correctly either. My smallest female with my male Made Beautiful puppies and they don't have that really bad angulation at all. The fear issues because they put these dogs and crates crate and they don't know what anything looks like like they don't even know what a window looks like cuz they live in a freaking crate. I get so mad when I get to see people right I can't get my dog to stay in the crate yeah German Shepherd. Supposed to be in freaking crates there are working dog. Mals are too much dog for me .
@@StonnieDennis Oh my ! I really can't do Facebook! I just seen in 2 German Shepherd groups Vets are putting puppies on antidepressants 7 month old puppy ! !! This would has gone mad !!
As a proud German Shepherd owner I believe this type of breading should be unacceptable. The German Shepherd should be built like the Malinoise except for slightly larger and more muscular. Show line breeders have ruined there lines for what appears to be an unhealthy and unathletic confirmation. It just plan sad to see. I’m not sure how and when show line breeders got off track but I hope they return to a more form for function approach.
Wow pretty impressive I have a WGSD and you can really see the difference in agility. Gus really has to pay attention to what he is doing..they just have wider bodies different leg structure...I will say this my GSD is a working line German Shepherd not Americanized version his slope is not as prominent but still great video!!
The GSD is shamefully bred. One comment below says it's because the dog is a puppy - look up Cruaghaire Catoria, the THREE year-old winner of the Crufts GSD breed in the UK. There was a lot of uproar about this dog, who could barely get her footing to walk around the show ring. A few years ago, the GSD winner at Westminster actually dragged the top of his feet on the ground because he couldn't pass his rear feet through a stride.
After reading the comments and your replies, I think I see what you're trying to do with this. It doesn't seem like others have caught on. Not sure if you got the results you were looking for 🤔
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I assume this is a show line / American bred GSD. Working line GSDs don’t have that disgusting body structure. Having a working line GSD and a Malinois compared to one another would create much less distinction.
Fantastic work Mr. Stonnie, now that you have been showing the puppy development series, and that you have puppies, it would be awesome if you could make a video about choosing a working puppy for protection and see all the process. As your puppy development series is very in depth and useful, I am sure that if you make a series or video about choosing a working puppy it would be equally wonderful...
My dad used to be a K9 handler (for special military units) and I can say first hand that the energy difference is not a breed thing - well, it is but when comparing the GSD and Mal it isn't - it depends on the dog. I've seen my dad work with GSDs with way more energy than Mals and vice versa. Both breeds are hyper energetic breeds.
Also, I want to add something my dad taught me: Before they were recognized as a breed, the German Shepherds were just simply called "Sheepdogs" by Farmers and people of West Germany. They weren't originally Orange and Black coated, they had a fading, shaded grey coat with black and light brown tints, the same kind of colors Eurasian Wolves have. The orange/black coat comes from companion and show bred dogs, right before they got recognized as a breed, as "German Shepherds." in late 1900's. There are still native working lines with grey coats all over Europe and are bred mostly by people breeding working dogs, working GSDs. The orange/black coated GSDs can be and are used as working dogs but they are nowhere nearly as energetic and as driven as native working lines. The native European working line GSDs, recognizable by their grey shaded coats, are often more overwhelming than Malinois and are prefered by Police and Special Military Forces due to their higher body mass and larger heads (for stronger bites.)
@@nogerboher5266 So you know about the breeds because your father told you about them? How many have you owned/trained personally?
Hi my name is Jason and I've had German Shepards most my life and Gus looks very handsome but I think he's headed for hip problems so sorry to say .hope I'm wrong he's way to young to put down but maybe rethink what you want out of him because jumping climbing stairs isn't good for his hips . I would recommend swimming and other low impact activity and keep his weight down as much as possible my heart goes out to you my friend good luck with Gus he's buitiful and looks very handsome . Bella of course is looking like a well trained fur missile she's perfect
When you see older pics of German Shepherds, and how straight their backs were, it’s almost criminal what the new show dogs look like
Look at my Puppy Developmental Stages series.
Look at it’s hips more like. Thing can barely walk along a ramp
Working line German Shepherds, still have straight back and good hips.
@@dave2471 yes they do shame about show ring shepherds. I’ll keep my Dutch herder who jumps on the roof of my van 😉
@@dave2471 Exactly. It's why I support the UKC and not the AKC. The American Kennel Club is the biggest one in the nation and they focus on superficial standards to the detriment of the breeds. On the other hand, the UKC focuses on health and function; genetic and bone structure issues can disqualify dogs there, but cosmetic ones that dogs get from doing their jobs such as chipped teeth or scars don't count against them at all. I can't respect anyone who breeds unhealthy dogs.
It looks to me like the German Shepherd is injured or has bad hips. The breeders of GSD dogs have a lot to answer for by going for the exaggerated slope of their backs to please show judges.
That’s because it’s a showline gsd .
Idk why people messed them up with that rear end ! It’s disgusting if you ask me .
I wish people that bred animals like that could live one day with the deformities they inflicted on their animals.
Pup looks like it has dysplasia, and may end developing degenerative myelopathy. Tragic what breeders have done to these dogs.
I agree.
*the breeders of showline GSDs
As someone who has had GSDs since 1974, there are a lot of other points to consider in this comparison. A big boned male GSD like Gus will completely mature physically at about 3-y yrs of age, while the female Mal will mature physically much earlier, by 2. Comparing 2 mature dogs of the same gender would have been more fair, imho. Keep putting in the work Stonnie, love your videos.
Good point.
Maybe that can be done?!
I agree. Gus is not a working line GSD. Sadly, he appears to be a show ring bred dog. He's younger than Bella and big boned. It's like your comparing apples to oranges. Gus shouldn't be exercised too hard until his bones get stronger. Bella could probably run or at least trot this course easily but "Jethro" would be slow and uncoordinated, poor thing. He needs to go play and just be a puppy for a couple of months. I have a working line bred who needs some obedience training if you want to try him out! Haha, he needs more exercise!!! Love your obstacle course!🙂
@@StonnieDennis I'd also add that Gus is built for colder climates than Bella, he'll get hot and tuckered much more quickly. Also it takes a lot of energy to grow, and GSDs have a ton of growing to do. I think your analysis was still correct though, Malinois are just more agile dogs, and if that GSD is from a show line then he was bred for looks at the sacrifice of health & fitness (a shame).
His maturation doesn't hide the fact he is walking on his hocks. He has little to no rear power. He is essentially a cripple.
Fortunately working line german shepherd exist
That's good news. My German Shepherd did not have those sloping hips. I got her from a rescue. I think it was a veterinarian that commented that she was from a different line and I think they said it was Alsatian. She was a beautiful athletic dog. Perhaps someone can comment to that and let me know if this is true.
I think it's terrible what breeders have done with show ring German Shepherds. I don't even understand why people like the look. And it's horrible for the dogs because if I'm not mistaken I think this contributes to hip dysplasia.
@@MsPilgrim123 it's interesting to hear some people called the German Shepherd and Alsatian. It is a German Shepherd. The term Alsatian came about during the world Wars, when Germany was not in good standing. People didn't want to call their dogs German anymore so they called them Alsatian. Probably a working line German Shepherd that you had. It comes from many different lines, Czech, Slovak, eastern or ddr.
Please differentiate American GSD show line with west German. It’s not the same dog.
@@Holomatchi Explain the difference and the history of the divergent lines.
@@StonnieDennis This video is obviously displaying a show line GSD with bad hips vs a working line gsd
That poor GSD, he's an absolute tragedy. His back end looks like it could collapse at any moment. Show breeders have a lot to answer for, I hope they think the rosettes and trophies make it worth while.
Why can you get praise for an obviously disabled dog ! Disgusting
amen
I prefer GSD's over Malinois but I don't compete them. Mals are just too much intensity to me. I like the look of the German shepherd. I like that they are bigger and beafier. This Shepherd looked horrible though in my opinion. I hate show line ones. The angulation is just horrible! It has no function to me. That was actually painful to watch Gus do the course. If I were to pick this mal and shepherd I would pick the mal.
I too felt bad for Gus watching him, he's not bred to be a successful functional dog physically, maybe he will grow into better proportions as he ages, but if not I hope his owners just want a great companion and house dog, it would be unfair to ask him to do much more. He looks like he'd be a great snuggler though!
I'll only own GSD because of the bond....I will never buy a show line. Give me a working breed any day!
It's no wonder they are prone to hip dysplasia when you see them like this... Sad
Those show line shepherds are hard to watch. My 10 1/2 year old working line GSD still hauls ass up and down a set of stairs, and chases a ball just as hard as she did at 2, and she's a 100 pounds
I recon that. He used the wrong GSD to compare.
I had a working line GSD and she was about the same as my GSD/Mal mix now
never tired and was always on
Can't compare a show line GSD with a malinois. This is not a good example. He should know better. Malinois are workung dogs so bring on a working line GSD and compare. Any of my son's workung line GSD - even the "retired" ones - would have outshined this malinous.
@@loretaylor7539 I'd say its fair to compare, as most GSD's these days aren't from working lines (sadly). On the other hand, 100% of Malinois are from working lines. Even working line GSD's will have a hard time keeping up with a good Malinois, but they make up for that by not having the insanely high-maintainence energy levels of a Malinois. They're also just bigger; it takes a lot more energy to move an 100lb body than it does to move a 50lb one.
@@loretaylor7539 Rarely do dog trainers know better. Even most (most, not all) veterinarians have no idea what they are talking about. I'm a biologist with a specialization in Zoology and my main focus were mammals, focusing on canids and ursids. I got all my licences for conservation and for training and handling. My father was a K9 handler for special military forces, he stopped working about 6 years ago, which is when I started my education and work about domestic dogs - that's also when I first hand the chance to see how little do dog trainers and veterinarians actually know about the natural physiology of domestic dogs (and about animals in general.)
Most Universities get their books from non scientific sources, I even saw one Dog anatomy & physiology book being made in collaboration with Royal Canin... Hmm, I wonder what they wrote and recommended as a natural diet of canids in the nutrition section of the book... Surely it isn't Royal Canin. Surely they wrote prey based diet and plant matter. (Sarcasm.)
I take care of my dogs myself, I am more than qualified to do so, apart from the medical aspect of it, however to all you owners out there, I recommendnd you don't trust any dog trainer or veterinarian without AT LEAST a Biology branch and/or a Zoology degree. Most of learning about physiological, nutritional and behavioral information about canids (and other animals) is done in university programs under these two degrees. Another big plus is if you see someone with a Mammalogy branch degree. I would not trust a dog trainer, a vet or anyone else handling my dog or recommending things to me, if they don't have at least one of these three degrees as proof of their qualification and knowledge.
For example, a veterinarian or "a dog nutritionist" without a Zoology degree recommending you what to feed your dog, is as good as you asking a drunken hobo in the back alley what to feed your dog. Take care people! Be smart!
It's a shame what they have done to GSDs
I have a working line shepherd that is super athletic but he is only about 80lbs not like the gigantic American Shepherds. I think a nice video would be working line verse american show lines.
I can do that!
I have a GSD working line and he is so athletic and smarter then a malinois, GSD are more thinkers then other dogs
I purchased a dark sable Working Line German Shepherd from a breeder out of the Netherlands and he looks different than the Shepherd in the video. That dog looks like my neighbor's showline German Shepherd with that hind leg slouch. I also have a Mal from the same breeder and they're just different but mostly the same.
We had a GSD a few years ago. She came from a Rescue, so her pedigree was not fully known, but as best we could figure she was likely from Czech working lines. Once a guy asked me what breed she was, then proceeded to argue with me that she was “no German Shepherd” when I told him. I presume he thought all GSD should have that deformed rear end, which she did not, although I did not waste the time to dig into where his misconception came from.
Personally, I think they did a disservice to GSDs when they started working for that sloped hindquarter. To me, the mechanics don't work as good as a straight-line hindquarter.
Show breeders often destroy destroy a breed with exaggerations of the standard. For shame.
You are Spot on!
What a great educational video to watch. Stonnie you are fearless.
It's not the show breeders it's the judges that make them champions. No one td
No one wants to breed to a dog without credentials.
I have a working line, 6 month old, female GSD puppy and she could give that Malinois a run for her money. :) Thanks for the comparison.
Which puppy is she closer to, conformation wise?
@@StonnieDennis Here in UK I have working line GSD. She's gold sable in colour, not dark [lot of black]. from 8 weeks, and again today at nearly 2 years she is mistaken for a malinois but to me she has the best conformation, and the best movement I've ever seen. I bought my 1st GSD in 1979, and watched with horror what we called "hyena" Shepherds winning. I was there for Obedience
@@StonnieDennis Conformation wise my puppy has a flat back and squared off hips like the Malinois, but has the bigger bones like the German Shepherd. So far she's not huge and has stamina for days. We're training her for herding. Thanks for the videos, I appreciate all you do.
That’s the difference between show line and working line
That's how my shepherd conformation is too. He has energy for days, but he's also a working line.
I have a 2 year old working line GSD female and a 9 month old male Malinois. I would definitely recommend a chill working bloodline GSD over a show line. She’s a ninja. Super fast and agile. Although he is becoming more powerful, she throws him around in the yard. 😂 Awesome video as usual! Thanks!
Personal experience. I like that!
Poor Gus is the result of decades of "good" breeding that show lines have dictated. Fortunately, it's still possible to find GSDs that haven't had their hindquarters absolutely ruined by "conformation experts" who decide that unnatural postures and body styles are somehow desireable.
Show breeders use exaggerated traits for conformation because there is no functional breeding requirements for them. Additionally many idiotic owners find those extreme traits appealing.
@@jfkst1 they don't know any better until their dog struggles with back and hip issues
@@analarson2920
If the GSD at least had the standard of being IPO1 titled for breeding like in Germany I dont you would ever see such exaggerated features.
So many thoughts... (1) You are truly a fearless man, Uncle Stonnie, to instigate this discussion. (2) I’m thoroughly impressed with your community members, who are nearly all “calm, attentive, and polite” in their replies. Practically unheard-of in my online experience, especially when it comes to these two breeds. (3) LOVE that you use the same techniques with people that you do with dogs. As I read your replies, I keep seeing you taking a pup back around to a challenge and urging him to engage it a little more thoroughly each time. No intimidation, no smack-downs, just a gentle, persistent encouragement to try harder. (4) Several times I’ve seen GSDs in your videos and they remind me of giant beetles with rounded backs and little scurrying legs. (5) My first dog was a GSD, and I was blown away by her almost-human ability to understand and communicate with me and suite her mood to mine. (6) I wonder whether it will be the despised “backyard breeders” who save the GSD, in the end. The ones who know them and love them and don’t care about winning titles. (7) Finally, some of this discussion reminds me of discussions about identifying plants-i.e. when can it be called a species, and when is it just a variety? If the dog no longer fits the breed description, is it still that breed? Perhaps true German Shepherd Dogs are extinct?
Great comment! Keep them coming!
Insightful comment. I have pondered this many times myself. I am an enthusiast of all Shepherds, particulary the German Shepherd. I do love Malis and Dutchies. In general, I feel that the German Shepherd is better suited for an all around utility dog. In general, the other shepherds are better suited for full-time military pursuits. There are exceptions to every rule. These days, every time I see a German shepherd usually from a show line, I want to tell people that that's not a true German Shepherd. I do agree that it is like a completely different breed then what they were intended to be and I almost wonder if calling them something else would be better. But then, that would only encourage these horrible breeders to continue breeding these deformities. I feel that perhaps the only solution would be: the public needs to stop patronizing these show line breeders; working line breeders need to continue in their efforts to maintain the true German shepherd dog and not sacrifice health and function in favor of looks; finally, and most controversially, perhaps the registry needs to open up again so that standing studs can be out crossed to stable, healthy, and athletic dogs without papers in order to restore the vital elements of function and health. This is what they do to knpv dogs to maintain the highest standards of function and perhaps should be done with some lines of shepherd. I know that 100+ years ago, the true German Shepherd used to have brindle colors because it was regularly mixed with the Dutch Shepherd and Malinois. Closing the registry and show rings have gone a long way to destroy the noble and great German shepherd dog. If there's another answer then do tell. I'm only trying to find the best solution to restore this almost mythical breed.
@@primalcritters Very good comment.
@@primalcritters Here's the way I tend to see it -- in extreme over-simplification:
really good dog breed + publicity = popularity
popularity + professional breeders = high price
popularity + high price = status symbol
At this point, you have people purchasing a really good dog breed in the most expensive form they can afford because they want to be known as the sort of person who owns a ____ type of dog. They soak up popular culture about the breed and have the shibboleths on hand to demonstrate their own membership in the Popular Breed Club. Most people like to believe they have chosen this breed because of its wonderful qualities--and of course that's part of it--but many more are influenced by what sort of people own these dogs and what it would say about them to own such a dog.
(Before we start mudslinging, let's look closely at our own habits. Most of us own a number of things that, at least in part, serve as status symbols. Of course they are generally not completely divorced from our other values. We may choose American/import cars because that means something important to us. We may choose clothing labels for what they say or don't say about our values, social position, work ethic, etc. Nothing wrong with this. Just important to keep in mind that we make these decisions within a social context.)
status symbol + time = exaggeration of easily-recognized features
(bikinis get smaller, truck tires get bigger, McMansions get bigger until suddenly they are no longer a status symbol and then microhouses become popular and grow smaller and smaller until it's hip to live in an expensively decked-out van down by the river...)
The poor show-line GSD seems to have fallen prey to these exaggerations.
I don't have a real hopeful outlook because these elements are so integral to human society. Different dog breeds become fashionable at different times, and it generally isn't good for the breed overall. I feel like the show-line GSD is on its way out of style (in favor of the Mal?) and then the breed may have a chance to recover. Breeders just looking for high prices will turn to other types of dog; breeders who care deeply for the GSD may feel more free to add some new genes to the pool.
In the meantime, for those of us who get our status elsewhere, how do we lend our energy to the breeding of healthy GSDs and refrain from accidentally adding steam to the current runaway GSD trend?
@@primalcritters I've had a new name for the show line since I noticed the horrible breeding practices take over. They are no longer GSD, they are now GDS Geneticly Deformed Specimines. So sad.
Oh, poor Gus. It makes me so sad to see what has happened to German Shepherd Dog's breeding. These breeders are ruining these dogs conformationally, and the people who end up with them are in for a world of heartbreak. His back end is going to be trouble for him his entire life unfortunately.
IGP-1 should be obligatory for American show lines as it is here. It drives me nuts what you are doing over there in the states with the breed.
@@Holomatchi West German show lines aren't impressive either. Still have clear deformed backlines compared to working lines.
@@jfkst1 Read my post where I explain the difference. If you are in the US you are probably referring to American show lines. Here they have a slight slope.
Your videos gave me the confidence to take on a 9 month old rescue Malinois 15months ago. I spent days building a small challenges course which, even first time around, was no challenge at all. LOL.
Some 4 wheelers are better at doing stuff than others and I guess its the same with dogs.
Thanks for the effort you and 'the cameraman' take making your videos. Much appreciated.
That looks like a hideous show line GSD. Use a well bred working one next time for a fair comparison :)
I can do that, for sure.
Yes that would be interesting to see the comparison of working line gsd and malinois
Great video stonnie, one thing to consider here is that Malinois are a working breed. The GSD you shown looked more like it was from show line stock, so it’s more a comparison between working and show lines. Working line shepherds if breed well are still very similar to a malinois. 👍🏼
Flesh that out a bit. Explain to people what you mean by working versus show lines!
To explain that I have to give a brief history recap. In the late 1800’s Max von stephanitz standardised the GSD breed or what we now know as the working line GSD. To him the most important features of the dog were intelligence and physical capability, beauty wasn’t something that was on the agenda at that point in time as these were military dogs. The GSD breed that he standardised were highly intelligent, confident, good levels of aggression, had a straight back, high hocks, slender and agile with good stamina. Very much similar to the malinois of today. Over a period of time there were three main GSD’s developed, the East German, West German and Czech lines, all had slightly different characteristics but still held the original vision of the GSD at the forefront of their breeding practices. After WW2 there wasn’t as much of a place for these dogs within society. To give these dogs a purpose they started showing them at dog shows, once this happened beauty was at the forefront of these breeding practices and intelligence and physical ability weren’t as important. Over a period of time with selective breeding the backs became more sloped (to make the show stack look more impressive) the hocks got lower to the ground and they became less confident.
Fast forward to present day there are still breeders dedicated to preserving the original GSD whether that be East, West or Czech line. These dogs are called working line GSD’s. In tern the dogs that have been breed for show are called show line GSD’s. I hope this makes sense!
I personally own a Czech working line GSD and have worked with a few show line GSD’s there are a lot more health risks with show line GSD’s as a general rule but that aside they are both great dogs in their own way it just depends on what you want in a dog but in my opinion they are almost two different breeds entirely. Hope this helps.
@@joshrichards613 Very good!
Josh said it perfectly. The show line gsd has been so distorted that it can’t move like it should. I prefer the Mal or a working line gsd that has a straight back and hocks that don’t hamper the dog. I feel sorry for this dog looking at it move. Bella is a much healthier looking and moving shepherd dog.
@@joshrichards613 Max von stefanitz created them to work and protect herds of sheep. I dont think Max was around when the military took an interest.
Great comparison Stonnie......Bella is a much healthier looking specimen of a shepherd. She moves freely and easily whereas the GsD is hampered by his sloped back and exaggerated angulation, especially in the hocks. Interesting video to see the difference! Thanks!
Wow, you are a a complete moron.
@@StonnieDennis Calm your ego down.
I have watched this five times and learned something different each time. I think the biggest takeaway is that one dog has confidence and the other doesn’t, which seems due to the body type, size of feet slope of the back etc. Great video Stonnie.....and super conversation starter....boy, did you get some good feedback. Now half of the viewers need to go back and watch the video again, at least four more times as I did. Thanks for the comparison lesson!
For sure. As with a lot of my videos, sometimes I feel like I'm throwing pearls before swine...
Poor Gus looks to be disconnected between his mind, the front legs and the rear legs. He looks more like a crippled old man, rather than a growing pup. American breeders have done the breed a dis-service. This was once a great dog.
Great videos. I have a Belgian Malinois, 10 months old. She starts at 0530 and is still going strong at 2100. She is strictly ALL GO and NO STOP! At 68 Y.O. this will probably be my last dog, but she sure is a great one. I have owned GSDs and Malinois all my life, both are great animals, fine protectors and loyal companions. I've found dogs remind me to be kind, forgiving and trusting...unfortunately, I don't always see that in people. Keep up the great work!
You need to engage her mind. Mixup the excercise with obedience and bite work. I have 2 and one is my service , protection and we compete in PSA.
The puppy was a rescue and she is also smart , but she has a turn off switch, however , she sees a Decoy and my Mal doing bite work she switches in to a rapture. She is already doing obedience , agility and some but work. She has KPVN lines in her. Interesting as both my Mals are different. I train her different than my
Mal who is high drive all the time.
Lots of work, but worth it!! Best dog I have ever owned.
It does say Conversation Starter in the title- I appreciate that as one who wants to hear more about many breeds. Not everyone is an expert dog person. I am not, here to learn.. Appreciate all the perspectives and comments to help learn more and make good choices for dog responsible ownership- thanks!
Very good attitude!
I think Gus is going to have hip problems...sadly...I have a 8 month old Belgian malinois and she is a ninja and so smart and gorgeous...
Gus already has!
His rear end movement is a mess(sorry, I don't know the proper terminology). That seems to be common in German Shepherd dogs unfortunately.
Where did you get your Malinois?
It's sad that they actually, unknowingly, bred hip dysplasia into a once great working dog.
I am watching the video and reading the comments sitting comfy on the couch. All this and playing fetch with my 8mo mal😂
Thanks to Uncle Stonie he brings the ball to my hand.
LOL at the comments section...I should have known better.
I love the Mal's physical stance--they're like the SUV of the dog world and can be trained to work almost anywhere from water to farms to battlegrounds. But for most folks looking for an athletic companion dog, I think the Mal's drive/energy is too high and shepherds would be easier to handle. I'm blown away by how controlled Bella is... I'm guessing she put in 10 miles of romping before this course to check that energy😀
It started on the first picnic table, Bella stance was relaxed and Gus's rear was in a bind, stressed, weakened etc. Bella gait was smooth, strong and confident. Gus steps were clumsy, weak and faltering.
Hey Stonnie, your dogs are all so lovely on the leash! Wow!
Thank you!
The GSD walks and stands like there is a problem with his rear legs, or he's in pain, or fear, or something. I'm not a GSD person. Is that normal for them?
He looks like he got hit by a bus and is in pain. Like his rear got whacked out of place. :( We have a GSD and she doesn't look like poor Gus at all.
He's a "show line" GSD. Some breeders really exaggerate the slope of the hips. Check out Tori, who won Crufts' Best of Breed in 2015. It's not likely he's been injured (although obviously I don't have enough information to attest to that for certain).
@@creativeallison686 looked 2015 up. Wow. I am shocked that dog lovers think this looks good. I always thought of GSD as athletic and unstoppable! As long as they keep winning, it won't change. $$$
@@vbetta8979 2015 is taken out of context. Sherds are shown running hard [pulling] on a slip lead under the jaw. This forces the front end up and the croup, hips down, exaggerating the angulation. The topline is still not good in all of them at that show.
My chocolate lab Hugo just ran in from the garden to watch stonie he does this every tine he hears your voice 😂
Ha! Very nice!
We chose a Belgian Malinois over a GSD for this exact reason. We've always LOVED GSD's but we really wanted the healthiest most physically fit dog and after lots of research we found a great reputable breeder, Cook Farm Kennels in North Carolina that breeds GSD's, Dutch Shepherds and Belgian Malinois. They produce very stable, clear-headed, good natured dogs from strong working backgrounds with AKC certification. We love our Belgian Malinois, working with her you can absolutely see that Mals have been bred for function and the success of the breed, but if you're set on a GSD just find a great breeder and don't ask your dog to do more than they are physically able to. We would have never taken our pug on a hike, but our Malinois is the perfect hiking buddy!
I'm curious if you ever considered a working line German Shepherd when you went to your breeder or were you just so put off entirely that you wouldn't even consider it.
@@primalcritters We definitely would have, we just fell in love with Maligators haha.
Thank you for doing this Stonnie we love you. I love both breeds, still I'm partial to the working line German Shepherd the most. But they are killing me with these show like Shepherds and buyers need to stop buying them. Hitting people where it hurts is the only way to get the message across.
A great conversation starter. Thanks for sharing stonnie! I used your videos to train my collie and have since shared them with others. I love when people ask how my dog is so well behaved
The german shepherd look badass in my opinion but the malinois also looks pretty nice but in a different manner, she looks slim and agile, of course if I need it a dog for working I would go for bella but I only need a dog for walks or running personally and that looks cool if health is not compromise on the dog.
The comments on this video are almost more interesting than the video itself. We recently brought home a GSD puppy, so I've been going through all of your old videos.
As much as most people don't want to admit it, i think what you've shown here really is a fair and accurate assessment of the average GSD. It's unfortunate but this is the type most often encountered when shopping for a registered GSD in America.
It was a significant challenge for us to find a working line GSD with both good conformation and temperament with solid parents who had good health certificates and proven qualities without having to start looking out of country or spending more $$ than most average american families just looking for a pet/companion dog are able to justify.
Hey Stonnie, thanks for giving us 2 videos in one day! And I have no dog in this fight over the types of GSD’s, but it’d be interesting to see a comparison between them the way you’ve done withField Labs vs English Labs.
My email account can't handle that amount of hate mail...
😂 LOL. Talk about Trump and COVID too....I love the comment section when the crazies get all worked up.
My local balanced trainer also said that his Mals (or were they Dutch Shepherd??) were like GSD’s on speed, and at his age he would never get another because they were too much hassle 😂
they are stupid easy to train though
Propioception ....I love that term! I would love for you to have a short video explaining in depth what it really means!
I think I have a few older ones but I guess I should update them.
Oh I know what the word means....I just meant I would love to see it explained in an “Uncle Stonnie” video/common sense way with his fine dogs showing the difference in a dog that has good propioception and one still learning his way. Bella is a great example of one who has found her best way to go!
My used to be a K9 handler (for special military units) and I can say first hand that the energy difference is not a breed thing - well, it is but when comparing the GSD and Mal it isn't - it depends on the dog. I've seen my dad work with GSDs with way more energy than Mals and vice versa. Both breeds are hyper energetic breeds.
Also, I want to add something my dad taught me: Before they were recognized as a breed, the German Shepherds were just simply called "Sheepdogs" by Farmers and people of West Germany. They weren't originally Orange and Black coated, they had a fading, shaded grey coat with black and light brown tints, the same kind of colors Eurasian Wolves have. The orange/black coat comes from companion and show bred dogs, right before they got recognized as a breed, as "German Shepherds." in late 1900's. There are still native working lines with grey coats all over Europe and are bred mostly by people breeding working dogs, working GSDs. The orange/black coated GSDs can be and are used as working dogs but they are nowhere nearly as energetic and as driven as native working lines. The native European working line GSDs, recognizable by their grey shaded coats, are often more overwhelming than Malinois and are prefered by Police and Special Military Forces due to their higher body mass and larger heads (for stronger bites.)
I agree with many of the comments here. My first GSD came from a show line, he was huge with a sloped back. The next 3 Gassy came from working lines. They aren't as big and my current pup has a pretty straight back. He is driven and fast. Loves agility courses. This video is generally a good comparison, wish it included a personality comparison too.
What is your take on the work ethic and ability of “working line” GSDs vs “show line” GSDs? Gus sure is beautiful but I find myself drawn to more of a Mal body shape in shepherds.
My opinion is that Uncle Stonnie just put the precious metal into the refiners fire to purify it so that all of the impurities and dross could come to the surface to be removed. Just my opinion.
I have a Malinois and this video was very helpful, thankyou Stonnie !
My working line never moved like Gus. He wasn’t as agile as Bella but that’s to be expected. It’s hard to watch how Gus struggles with the simple movement.
Explain to the other commenters what you mean by working line. Why are there different types of German Shepherds?
By the way, thanks for calling me out Stonnie! LOL I am far from an expert but from what I have learned is Working line German Shepherds are bred specifically for work, and more specific for endurance, strength, hunt drive, prey drive.... They are used for police, military and sport. They range in weight from 75-90 pounds and have a great temperament. The back is straight across and not sloped like the American show line.
Wish you had been able to use a working line GSD. The BM hasn't been messed up by conformation and indiscriminate breeding yet. Unfortunately popularity is already taking its toll. I think in general Mals are more athletic. This from a German Shepherd guy. Great video as always Stonnie!
I can do that comparison also, but it would leave out the most important part of the conversation, no?
You are correct sir.
@@StonnieDennis I'd suggest an even more important point could be made by comparing two GSDs from opposite ends of the spectrum.
Malinois are definitely more athletic over the more bulky German Shepherds, yes.
Stonnie, I hope you allow me to ask a question.
I'm curious what you said to Gus's owners. Have you discussed the show vs German working lines with them?
Love your channel, G-d bless.
Excellent comparison and evaluation. Love how you identify respecting abilities. If everyone who wanted a dog would as well.
Thank you!
"exercise brings out the best in dogs"- subscribed! great video btw
Gus is a totally different dog. Looks like G show lines or Am lines a small working Line GSD could be on the same level
Thanks for your videos love them.
Oh. BTW the Shep has a Gorgeous coat
Flesh out that position so novice dog lovers can understand.
I would love for GSD show breeders to explain how knock-kneed hock walking and a rear end that needs to be dragged on the ground improves a GSD’s ability to do its job.
Not a fair comparison! Use a working line gsd next time Stonnie.
It's a perfectly fair comparison. I chose that dog because I knew what the discussion would look like. If I chose a working bloodline GSD, it would be a lot different conversation, no? Although not as different as people are pretending...
@@StonnieDennis It's a night and day difference from that wobbly Showline gsd you have in the video. Poor dog can barely walk in a straight line.
@@StonnieDennis The malinois still out works the best working GSD?
@@hops8184 my best friend is a k9 officer who has one I will tell you he told many of times he wish the department would have got a German working line instead of the Belgian I’ll keep it at that completely disagree with stonnie on this
Hi Stonnie...amazing videos... been watching you since ages. Our GSP is trained after your principles...can only say...it works. Git a questions... what kind of training vest you got...can´t find anything similar in Germany. Would be amazing to get a little tip.
stonie, so reading through the comments and your replys am i right in saying you used Gus to spark a conversation about the divide in the GSD breed, people are saying to compare a normal mal to a WL GSD not a badly bred showline? Gus could be a quite common type of GSD and Bella could be a common type of mal so it is a fair comparison if that is the case. however is the problem that the WL/SL divide is too great in america, why are people breeding a dog like Gus who clearly has mobility issuses for the sake of a show ring (i don't know if that is what he was actually bred for) , he probably will strengthin up and become more stable in his rear but i don't think is should be normal for any puppy to walk like that. A dog from Quality schutzhund GSD lines for example is probably more similar to a mal however that isn't the common type of GSD that people are looking for and they are quite tricky to get a hold of, so isn't the point of this video to show the dire state of the common GSD and that we need to focus on just making the common GSD healthy mentaly and physicaly? (i'm no GSD expert, i've got 2 labs, but have i got any of that right?)
Good points made. I have labs also and I think the points you made were fair. Mals have been bred to keep those straight backs, etc. as have working line gsd. While the show line gsd has been bred to have that sloping back....for what reason? the beauty shows?..... not sure why that slope is so popular these days. It can’t be healthy for the hips or the back. Good visual that Stonnie showed us tho....
That’s a very good starting point for a conversation!
Gus looks so puppyish compared to Bella, like she has 6 or more months on him rather than just 2 weeks. Let's see how he does in another couple months.
We keep adding a bit of stress to his daily routine so he will definitely be better!
@@StonnieDennis Out of curiosity, do you know if he's from a working line, or a show one?
@@TheGrumbliestPuppy you can look at him and see that he is a show line. I have no idea why show judges like the sloped back end on the gsd, but it is definitely not good for the dog.
@@TheGrumbliestPuppy I guess not everyone is familiar with a working line German Shepherd. For the record, they look nothing like sweet poor Gus. Working line shepherds are extremely athletic and don't have weird angles and their legs or sloping backs. They look more like a Malinois but definitely a much more handsome version. Not that the Malinois is not good looking, indeed they are! But a well-bred working line German Shepherd really can't be beat. They are usually sable, the darker the better.
Stonnie, I love all your videos. In this video your comparison is correct. But... I have an 18 month old Mal/Duthcie who is a big boy. Almost 90 lbs and long legs. He was super uncoordinated from day 1. Would get to running and then roll right right over himself. He ended up getting a back leg broke at 5 months old when he awkwardly got run into by a very little dog I had. So he had surgery and just 2 weeks ago had second surgery to help straighten his leg. Fast forward to my adopting a Swedish working line GSD at 8 weeks old who just turned 1 year old. He is so incredibly calculated in his movements from Day 1. He has a beautiful gait and stride. Very smooth. I agree he has a heavier body style but he really has it going on with his speed and movements. So not all GSDs would fit in the category you describe.
Very good comment. I'm simply trying to encourage an important conversation.
Thanks for your work
Thank you for watching!
From my small sample, a malinois is nothing like a gsd, except they kinda look alike. A malinois has the energy of a jagdterrier or similar with the trainability of a border collie plus they are high strung. Mine is more like a jack Russel because he is show line, still has loads of energy. Maybe I have never seen an energetic GSD, but the ones I have met are pretty laid back compared to the malinois I have met. Unfortunately, there are maremma breeders who say they are just like white golden retrievers. People have to quit seeing dogs for what they look like.
I have a Belgian Malinois that will turn 7 this year. She still has the energy level of a 3 year old. No hip issues, and athletic abilities are beyond amazing. As her vet said, “she is definitely not a couch potato”. I love how eager she is to learn and please. Lots of work on my behalf, but she keeps me active. Best breed in my opinion. (I had two German Shepherd’s as a child, loved them both; however a Belgian Malinois is definitely a dog not for the weary.
Whoever breeds GSDs to look like that should beg The Almighty for forgiveness, but dear Lord have mercy on young Gus!!!
Coworker friend of mine has a puppy from a "reputable" GSD breeder. Spent $4+k on the dog. And he got a discount.
NO the AKC and judges should read and understand the breed standard, Including a basic working qualification to be eligible to be shown would also help
I was gonna say isn’t there a difference between working lines and show lines for German shepherds like there is for labradors? I don’t understand how those slanted backed shepherds are supposed to the farming jobs they were bred to do.
That's a good question. Some might answer that the dogs don't live on farms anymore.
@@StonnieDennis ok you’re right not a lot of people use shepherds for farm/ranch work anymore. So when you look at both those dogs for protection work I’d pick the Malinois. Crazy as they may be lol. She was more sure footed and confident on the course.
@@StonnieDennis farm or no farm condemning an animal to suffer for our aesthetic desires is wrong... I'm not plugged into the community but I hope the trends are moving away from "show" animals with health issues and towards actually healthy animals. I grew up with labs, very lucky that they lived to be 15 and 16... Frankly I'm amazed the one that had been used for breeding show dogs out lived the other one, but poor thing was totally freaked out by grass when we got her, and elbows were callused up due to always being on concrete till she got a real home and wasn't just being used to pump out expensive puppies to sell off.
The GSD looks physically disabled, both with the downward slope of his back and worse with the inwards slope of his rear ankles. He doesn’t look like he will ever be able to exercise or work intensely without injury or breaking down. Breeders who do that to animals are unethical, amoral, and the customers creating the demand are just as bad. Sorry, not sorry.
It's UK breeders who took this sloped back to the extreme, just for the record.
@@spaceman51974 Have you got a point hiding in there somewhere, just for the record?
Well.. there's a whole lot going on here... first thing I have is there is more than 1 type of German shepherd. Show varieties, working lines, long hairs... the Mal is one of 4 types of Belgian shepherd. The short haired type. If you look at the longer haired Belgians, they are taller, longer, and they have a different temperament. They almost remind me a bit of Lassie.. lol. It just goes back to what you are looking for in a dog. Guy is going to be a BIG dog. His size alone will be intimidating. I mean look at his FEET! His front paws almost look like hands!! Lol.
He is similar to my friends shepherds. They tend to go for the bigger type, sweet but huge.
Now, my Mal, she is turning 5. Her breeding was protection and instead of looking tall and lean like Bella (granted year 1 & 2 she looked similar) Alice is a solid 65 pounds which is what a male is supposed weigh. She also has a very deep chest. (Her rib cage is huge).
She is, without a doubt, the most athletic dog I've ever owned.
Intelligence wise, my experience with both breeds is pretty equal. The biggest difference I have noticed is Alice the Mal, has almost unlimited energy. Whereas, my friends German shepherds tucker out sooner. I genuinely believe it is mostly due to their size. I have seen smaller types that are more similar to Alice and they have energy levels and agility more like her.
We choose what we want in a dog. Although even with extra super research, Alice still gives us a run for our money... every day. Don't let your Mal get bored! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
My german shepherd is 5 years old and weighs 74lbs and she still gives us a run for our money we are in our sixties and still can't seem to keep up with her lol we play with her constantly we are retired ❤ so that helps we love ❤ her so much she is our baby
@@debbieconn100 awesome! My friends shepherds are about 110 lbs. They are humongous doggies.
Great observations sir!
I believe after more than half a century of turning German Shepherds into house dogs and show dogs from a working and herding breed has produced less confidence.
My GSD Mix is a wonderful dog that loves the couch. He’s very gentle with our granddaughters and our other dogs.
He can go from sweetheart to Beast Mode when a stranger knocks on our door.
Thank you for the great videos.
I am acquiring a malinois about a year old whose owner passed. We think he wasn't treated well because he gets very aggressive and bites when trying to put a collar on. Do you have any tips on working with him so he can see his collar as a good thing and not a punishment.
Thanks for making yet again a good point on (dog)-training philosophy.
My German Shepherd looks more like Bella than Gus.
Plenty of them do, huge split within the breed.
Flesh that out. Explain what you are describing as a split within the breed.
@@StonnieDennis if i may , the biggest split is between working line and show line GSD's with the show line having far greater angulation in the rear end with the croup being at a much steeper angle ,.the back legs having a much greater bend to them and the hocks in some cases being almost horizontal and. this has come about because the show ring wants the dog to be in an almost perceptual stack without having to be placed in a stack and the show ring also argues that the show GSD is more the true herding GSD (if you believe their guff) . The most extreme line of show GSD is the American show line , though show lines in general tend to be bigger and heavier and in fact there has been an investigation by the SV into why GSD's that are outside the height and weight limits get placed so highly in the show ring.
As for the working line GSD , these can basically be broke down into 3 lines , the West German Work Line the Czech Line and the DDR Line. All 3 lines tend to be smaller and lighter than show lines , though obviously larger dogs do crop up from time to time. All 3 lines are certainly less angulated and when stacked the back is slanted , though at a less severe angle than the show line and the back and croup tend to be in line whereas in the show line the croup falls away at an even more severe angle. Then you come to drive , the WGWL and Czech Line tend to have higher drive than the DDR which tends to be slower maturing and have a higher defence drive whereas the WGWL and Czech Line tend to have higher prey drive and do better at dog sports. Obviously a lot of what i have stated is generalisations particularly when it comes to drives. Also it has been stated that the DDR Line no longer truly exists now that it's job of being a border patrol dog for the old East Germany no longer exists. Hope this helps .
Howdy Stonnie, great video on sculpting the training to the dog's abilities. What is a "purebred" dog? Seems to me most all canines are a mix of bloodlines, genetics etc. Aren't they all "Heinz 57's"? Have A Day! ;~)
I have always loved German Shepherds, but the way breeding has caused their hind legs to look and function has really put me off. Its like they already have hip dysplasia to me. That slope seems to be what people want and like, but for me it has become a no-go. If you have ever had a dog go thru hip dysplasia you'll probably know what I mean.
Gus isn't tired, he's in pain!!
You're exactly right. This is the sadest video I've seen in quite some time. Not picking on Stony, it is 100% the fault of akc judges and bad breeders
Excellent comparison video. The athleticism of the Malinois was visibly superior, but they're both beautiful animals and I'd love to own either, or both.
Comparison here is not apples to oranges, it instead is apples to brown banana. 😅 as with any breed, if you pick from the right lineage you won’t see such issues.
That's not true at all. A quick image search will result in tons of examples of GSDs and Mals with similar physical characteristics.
What is "the right lineage"?
Gus looks like he has the confirmation, and disposition of a AKC show dog,
After watching this video... I know which breed I prefer!
One is a poor example of the breed and the other is a dog on crack.... Great if you have the need, time or space
@@mmatrainee great way to put it... That poor german shepherd wasnt showcasing the breed very well ha.
The German Shepherd looked like his back legs were in pain🤷🏼♂️
it's a great comparison, is there much difference between dutch shepherds and malionas? i was cringing at gus's hind end it just dosn't look right :( are europian GSD working lines more agile and healthier overall?
Yes. They may as well be different breeds at this point. The euro working lines are pretty similar to mals. I have video of my girl as a puppy doing agility and she's FAST and agile
@@kellyhayes dyna is gorgeous and i see what you mean i much prefare the WL
@@lucielocket3203 thank you. Shes 5 now & has puppies of her own due Easter. The sire is an ofa excellent Czech import who is a cert human remains SAR dog & also very agile. There are great GSD out there but you have to do due diligence in finding them. God knows there are a LOT of crippled, nervous, reactive GSDs out there too
Gus reminds me of my big dope 6 months ago. Are all Shepherds that clumsy at that age?
Every once in a blue moon I will see a video of a working line GSD. It's basic body Structure will be more like the mal. But it will have the size and coat of a GSD. From the video's I've seen they seemed abit hyper though. But still not as hyper as the mal seems to be.
Thank you Stonnie :)
My gsd is straight shoulder to shoulder. That gus looks defective rear hip. Rear legs knock need. Very sad
And yet that is popular in the show ring, especially in Europe. Strange!
This GSD looks like a show line dog. Working line GSDs are very capable & athletic at least from my experience of owning a big bone, straight back, giant paw and coarse coated 90lb trail running, rock climbing machine which used to never get tired. Even at 9-10 years old he moves way easier then the pup in the video. Not sure why current breed standard favors "slanted back", "frog leg" GSDs but I don't think that its a fair comparison b/c such dogs don't look anything like normal, able bodied working line GSDs. BTW, love your videos!
Yes I know what u mean . I have a lab -Rot coon and a Full blooded Coon Hound . Its hard when I take them on walks since the Coon hound has longer legs than the Lab Rot. But There are getting better.
OK I have a mix 1/2 and 1/2 a male and female. They booth talk but the female well not stop some time . Mostly when I come home or get ready to leave . Is this normal? I grew up with shepherds and never had one talk this much.
Poor german shepherd. What a dysfunctional walking pattern. I love these dogs but this obvious disastre caused by breeders over the years... I am planning to have a dog and struggling to find one who would be like GS, the character and/but healthy. Plus I would prefer lighter version, sand colour one. I cannot find any 'replacement'.
Btw. Stonnie, I have found your videos by chance (I am from the Czech republic) and I find them very useful. Your approach and behavior to all the doggies you presented is I'd say in a warm and respectful manner. I like it very much. Thank you:-)
On average, what physical characteristics is do the GSD in your area have?
Do you see a lot of Sable?
Great video Stonnie! I have to disagree with some of the comments, even ddr working line gsds are not as solidly put together as the Mal. They still retain a great deal of angulation compared to a Mal, or a husky, or even a Golden retriever.
Very good point!
Bella definitely has what looks like a more natural and comfortable stance. Gus with that forward bent rear legs looks nice cosmetically but probably hinders it's mobility a fair bit.
I would love to have a dog with the physical abilities of a malinois with out the chase and bite things instinct.
Would’ve preferred to see the comparison be made between a working line GSD & a malinois
Then this conversation, which is an important one, would not have been had.
You don’t think this is an issue worth discussing?
I think Stonnie was making a point....which he obviously DID make....lol!
Like many GSD's I see these days, Gus looks crippled in the back end. I am much more attracted to the Malinois for the reason, that I remember well with the German Shepherds were built a lot like them and calm enough to be a wonderful farm family dog. the Malinois seems to be bred for the extreme and I think would be very hard to trust on a farm around livestock or be content with just chilling on the porch when there is nothing much going on. Same for the modern GSD. However. The GSD of old will always have a place in my heart. My uncle had GSDs on his working farm. I grew up with one and had another one when my children were born. Both dogs had my heart. Between the health problems with the German Shepherds and the many variations of them , I have not had one in many years.
I have had German Shepherds my whole life and when I decided to get a Malinois I overdosed on your training videos, but my Malinois is an anomaly and is scared of everything since she started having seizures. It sucks because she had sooo much potential.
I’m sorry to hear about your pup; unfortunately what you are describing is relatively common.
A good rule of thumb to remember though, is that exercise and anxiety share an inverse relationship!
@@StonnieDennis Oh, I totally agree! We do everything except agility, she LOVES bitework. I wish you were closer to visit, I think she would really like your low to the ground course in this video.
Hi Stonnie from sunny Spain. I have been watching your videos for years, and would love it if you could post a video on a subject that is rarely talked about. I have a 11 month old Malinois male, who unfortunately has hip dysplasia. He loves exercise, but if he jumps to catch a bouncing ball, his rear occasionally collapses on landing. I want to keep him happy, but would love your advice on what activities are safe for a young, otherwise healthy dog with this condition.
Good topic!
I would say NO jumping, just long, slow walks. Maybe swimming? Sorry your boy has this. Is surgery an option?
@@jusssayin10 Surgery is an option, but due to Covid, work in Spain has pretty much dried up. The litter was requested by the police, but they called the breeder to cancel it when Covid started as they couldnt get the kennels built. The breeder asked if I could help find people to take a puppy as he couldnt keep them all. I managed to find homes for 10, and he said he would pick a "calm" malinois for me. Not sure if there is such a thing. So, unfortunately, after three months I noticed an odd gait in his trotting, and have been quoted around 3-5,000 euros for the op. Sadly at the moment this isnt an option, so I am giving him regular supplements to help with his joints. Fingers crossed he will live a long and happy life.
Hello Stonnie: I see your point but this poor little shepherd is a show line dog with a pretty exaggerated slope to his rear. Could you try the same but with a working line GSD that has a more natural build? I think the difference will still be there but more because the GSD is typically a heavier boned dog and thus less agile not because the GSD has poor conformation for actual work like Gus.
Can you explain to the other commenters what you mean by working versus show and how the lines diverged?
@@StonnieDennis The show line GSD has been bred to meet an aesthetic standard not a performance standard. The exaggerated slope on the rear may be pleasing to show folks ( not me) but it detracts from the dog's overall balance and ability to do what working dogs are supposed to do well. On the other hand the so called "working line GSD" are bred for their ability to perform (police work, Shutzhund, etc) and the exaggerated slope typical of the show line does not appear in the vast majority of successful GSD working dogs. The original GSD's as seen in Max von Stephanitz's book looks a lot like a Malinois with perhaps a bit more bone. Why the standard changed to what it is today I don't know but the divergence comes from the fact that those that really need the dog to perform believe looks to be of secondary in importance.
Having some experience with Quarter Horses in my younger days I found the same problem. Halter (show line) QH's were totally different from performance QH's in appearance. Halter QH's had huge bulky bodies, tiny hooves and were totally unsuitable to do the work QH's were meant to do. I never understood the sense in breeding for an aesthetic standard that works against the performance standard but that seems to be exactly what the GSD folks are doing and poor little Gus is a perfect example.
I agree 100% with you in that the Malinois is a better athlete and that training methods and expectations must be different for each breed (I think that was the main point of the video anyway) but poor Gus is perhaps not a good representative of the type of GSD that does the same type of work Mals typically do and that many of us own.
I am a huge fan of yours and liked the video (if I lived closer I would have asked you to work on my GSD) I just wish you would do a repeat video comparison with a GSD pup that was built more like what we consider a performance GSD so we can see the differences between two good representatives of each breed.
I hope this response is helpful.
Love both breeds. Have always had German shepherds. None have looked like that. My shepherds eastern/Czech have been agility freaks
There are many well bred GSDs out there that perform well, but even then they aren't as agile as malinois.
Stamina I'm not so sure about (in good working bred dogs), most malinois go a lot harder because of their drive so can burn out quicker.
It'd be more fair to test a working example of each breed, the show bred GSD is often a physical wreck, American show lines probably worst of all.
Fair point, but explain to people why there is a difference. Why are there different types of GSDs or Malinois?
@@StonnieDennis
Because a good balanced GSD is such a great family dog, that made the pet market very lucrative.
Many years of GSDs being bred with no selective pressure has led to unhealthy and physically/mentally weak dogs.
Luckily there are still plenty of good kennels and breeders who do the right thing.
Malinois are completely different to GSD, they are a very poor choice of pet for most people and so are more often bred for performance than as family pets.
Another informative very interesting video !
Thank you and I agree!
Yes you're so right !! Now my smaller Shepherds are very Athletic, Mine definitely do not have that angulation at all. Am I male is big but he's really athletic he does a lot of jumping but not nearly as athletic as my smaller females are. Problem is people are keeping these German Shepherds in crates all the time and they're not getting any muscle and they're spay and neutering them when they're freaking puppies and their bones don't form correctly either. My smallest female with my male Made Beautiful puppies and they don't have that really bad angulation at all. The fear issues because they put these dogs and crates crate and they don't know what anything looks like like they don't even know what a window looks like cuz they live in a freaking crate. I get so mad when I get to see people right I can't get my dog to stay in the crate yeah German Shepherd. Supposed to be in freaking crates there are working dog. Mals are too much dog for me .
Very good points!
Not to be mean but the Shepherd really has angulation. Check out in my community tab my two pups they don't have that at all
@@StonnieDennis Oh my ! I really can't do Facebook! I just seen in 2 German Shepherd groups Vets are putting puppies on antidepressants 7 month old puppy ! !! This would has gone mad !!
As a proud German Shepherd owner I believe this type of breading should be unacceptable. The German Shepherd should be built like the Malinoise except for slightly larger and more muscular. Show line breeders have ruined there lines for what appears to be an unhealthy and unathletic confirmation. It just plan sad to see. I’m not sure how and when show line breeders got off track but I hope they return to a more form for function approach.
Wow pretty impressive I have a WGSD and you can really see the difference in agility. Gus really has to pay attention to what he is doing..they just have wider bodies different leg structure...I will say this my GSD is a working line German Shepherd not Americanized version his slope is not as prominent but still great video!!
The GSD is shamefully bred. One comment below says it's because the dog is a puppy - look up Cruaghaire Catoria, the THREE year-old winner of the Crufts GSD breed in the UK. There was a lot of uproar about this dog, who could barely get her footing to walk around the show ring. A few years ago, the GSD winner at Westminster actually dragged the top of his feet on the ground because he couldn't pass his rear feet through a stride.
Very good points!
Got to say you really know your sh#t Stonnie. That's why your the best
Thank you!
After reading the comments and your replies, I think I see what you're trying to do with this. It doesn't seem like others have caught on. Not sure if you got the results you were looking for 🤔
It's always the same; Pearls before swine...