The most interesting thing about the Witness is that it needs allies, like Rhulk, the Hive, Calus, Nezarec, and even tried to convince the Guardian to join it.
The comment Mara made on taxidermy wasnt related to the failed copies The Witness makes, it was a statement about what The Witness desires with the universe. Endless, Unchanging, Perfection
I think both work taxidermy makes a facsimile of life that's not truly living just like all of the witnesses creations but is also timeless and unchanging
Wow that’s a big integral part of Destiny’s lore… which I’ve already completely forgotten about because we just learned Eliksni chirp when they’re super happy! That’s so adorable!😂😂😂
At the end of Mara's dream, she said she felt a campfire. Maybe that means that her connection to Crow is strengthening now, which would make sense since we're nearing TFS
I took it differently. She was in a nightmare. But when she woke up, a warm campfire chased the cold away. Its like a subtle message. So she woke up and then things are fine. And the imagery of that was a campfire chasing the cold, a light and heat source. Lets take the light part, and then we can see this. Even after she saw the witness dream, she is then reminded that its not over. Because this cold was chased away by the light. That alone could say many more different things but the simplest one is this one. The takeaway is that she woke up and know it is not over through the small event being able to feel warmth from the cold before.
@@MICROKNIGHT3000it could be a double entendre. The campfire is both a metaphor and the literal camp fire we see in the Final Shape teaser with Cayde-6 talking to Ikora.
The Vex want to turn the universe in a Maschine that create a new universe. They simulate the light... Maybe to stop the final shape of the witness and to create their own
@@SkellyHertzAnd each Vex unit is a tiny witness; a being composed of and animated by millions of radiolarian bacteria working in concert, as the witness is it's whole civilisation in one.
I hope that we see more of this aspect Witnesses character in the final shape, the witness is in my opinion a fantastic villain. A spiteful, hateful, unhinged genocider, masking under a seemingly calm and collected demeanor, only a facade to the in reality, not rational or calm or collected inside that we see glimpses of in the story and more in the lore. I mean, in its eyes, imagining your god abandoning you, despite being with you for millions of years, when you believed you were finally close to achieving your supposed purpose. The witness is the combined hatred and despair of possibly billions of beings, with any humanity they had left being ripped from them by the veil. This villain is so interesting and yet, Bungie hasn't explored this aspect in game enough, hopefully the final shape does this.
I like The Witness as a concept, but I still think it was a missed opportunity to make them a primordial entity that embodies the philosophy of Darkness. Now that we know it came from just another alien race, they no longer have that feeling of being “above” the universe.
in my opinion, the winnower and the witness are different entities, they speak differently, have different motivations, and the collectors edition lore confirms this almost. The witness is deeply concerned with not just being right but making the universe suffer for being wrong, making the followers of the traveler condemn it before it wipes them out. On the other hand, the winnower is a calm and collected god being, that does not care what you think, it knows its right and does not feel the need to prove it to anyone.
Mara's dream reminded me of this quote from Doctor Who: "There's all sorts of realities around us, different dimensions, billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in between, containing absolutely nothing. Imagine that. Nothing. No light, no dark, no up, no down, no life, no time. Without end. My people called it the Void. The Eternals call it the Howling. But some people call it Hell."
My favorite moment with the Witness was in lightfall when Calus is ranting and boasting and the Witness just turns around and floats away 😂😂.. with this whole "im tired of dealing with this guy" vibe. Its hilarious. Like when some is annoying you and you just walk away from the convo. 😂 it was actually shown in this video and i laughed a good healthy laugh. I love that scene.
The Witness looks to create a universe of complete consensus. To create such a world, either everyone needs to be merged into the Witness or the Witness's consciousness needs to be placed in all life. The Witness reminds me of Agent Smith from The Matrix and Reverend Kane from Poltergeist.
I actually find it funny, the Witness hates the Light, but needs it for its goal to create the Final Shape, yet we guardians hated the Darkness, but needed its power to protect not just humanity of both Earth and Neomuna, but also our allies of the Cabal Ascendancy, the House of Light, and the Awoken of the Reef.
There's definitely an element of irony here. But while the Witness needs the Light, it takes it by force. The Guardians have gained their powers not by conquering (at least not entirely) but through alliance.
I fallen off the destiny two gameplay, but do we actually need the darkness powers? I know narratively we’re supposed to need them. does the game actually mandate We have to use them at any certain point to progress through the story?
I fallen off the destiny two gameplay, but do we actually need the darkness powers? I know narratively we’re supposed to need them. does the game actually mandate We have to use them at any certain point to progress through the story?
@@SpottedHaresThroughout both beyond light and Lightfall campaigns, yes. There are things you must use Stasis or Strand ability damage in order to progress.
My personal thought is that the Pale Heart is the Traveler's consciousness, the environment its thoughts and memories. The Witness used the Veil to enter it so it can consume the light and basically become God of the universe. Perhaps the Pale Heart is also a kind of afterlife for Lightbearers?
I’ve had a theory for a while now: Cayde was not brought back with a wish from Riven. He was waken up early. Deep within the Traveler, the manifestation of the Traveler, the Gardner: a pale women glowing with Light. Has been collecting and strengthening every Guardian legend that’s lived and died a final death, protecting others, herself, and Sol. She has been silent to us for so long, because she’d been focused gathering and rallying an army of Guardians to protect her Garden, and the Pale Heart. She’s crated an army of the spirits of Guardian legends, because she forsaw the final battle in this timeline. Where she must make herself vulnerable, and put her faith in us, to save her, and work with her army to defend her from the within her domain. The Iron Lords, Six Cyotes, Pilgrim Guard, Sunbreakers, all dead, she would raise from their sleep, to meet us, and defend her domain together aginst the Witness’ invasion. Cayde was merely woken up early. This area of her Garden domain, as akin to Valhalla for dead Guardian legends.
What I appreciate about The Witness is how it is very much Destiny version of The Devil done right. (Much like Melkor/Morgoth from Middle Earth). A being of existential evil. Not just by the nature of it being the setting's big bad and evil, but it's modus operandi, motivation, and in-game history. Is the Witness a fallen angel? No. Yet it was the first species uplifted by the Traveler and had a close relationship with it. They gained much insight, power, and paradise from their god, but many among them began to doubt it's power and motives. They ultimately came to the conclusion that they knew better than their god, the one who gave them everything, and desired to reshape the universe as they saw fit. They believed in their hubris they knew what The Final Shape should be. (The road to hell is paved with good intentions). Them becoming The Witness is akin to their fall, if The Devil and the host of heaven became one. A cold deciever with deep seated rage and hatred of the god and it's creation that spurned them. One that believes it is ultimately right and unable (or unwilling) to consider it may be wrong. Beyond that, we see how it chooses it's Disciples and what it turns them into. It whispers softly and quietly, exacerbating their traumas and suffering, promising them power and purpose, turning them into beings like it. Beings of hurt and hatred, who become their worst selves. Mass genocidal psychopathes and manipulators. All the while seemingly being unaware they will be cast away when they are no longer useful. That their master does not really care about them beyond that. It also knowlingly causes mass suffering, in part because I believe it uses the Darkness to draw power from it, but also because of it's deep-seated rage and hatred. Especially those who were uplifted by The Traveler. I think in part because of envy, but also in part of wanting The Traveler to suffer everytime. Much like The Devil wanting to spite God.
I mean, I’ve read the Bible multiple times and god commits genoc1de several times, with the devil doing…none. So yeah I can understand his desire of trying to escape that. Wouldn’t the Witness being god make more sense? It kills a lot of people but always sees it’s actions as righteous and Salvation, with its enemy as pure evil despite never hurting anyone. “You promised them life, but deliver only death, as you have to so many before.” - the guy killing everyone. I don’t think the Traveler is god because god clearly and consistently issues commands, while the Traveler is silent to nearly everyone, even Ghaul who longed to speak to it. I’ve seen some people compare the Traveler to Prometheus, as Prometheus gave the gift of fire to Humanity, jumpstarting their technological journey. For this, Zeus bounded him to a mountain to be picked at by birds for many years. Likewise, the Traveler gave the gift of the Light to Humanity, rapidly accelerating our technological advancement. The Witness punished the Traveler by nearly killing it, with pieces of it breaking off, some of them falling into the hands of the Hive to be drained of power. The Witness also made the Black Heart, which also began to drain the Traveler of its power. Another interesting comparison is the Traveler is a powerful being in Bungies Marathon known as a “W'rkncacnter” which is described as a “being of absolute chaos” which is the exact same description given to the Traveler. The Traveler grants Chaos through power, the Witness imposes order through manipulation and control. I mean, the Witnesses generals are literally called “Disciples” and it’s cause is claimed to be “Salvation”…
@@markricheard1870the only times God has committed genocide is when he destroys cities and nations where the people commit atrocities because of the Devil. Basically, against irredeemable people.
@@markricheard1870 It's not a perfect one to one comparison, merely a strong allusion and a possible inspiration for the story. Though I made this post not to debate theology, (though I would strongly disagree that The Devil did nothing through the accounts whether one is a believer or not) but point to the strong similarties and/or parallels that suggest what may have inspired the character. Even Byf pointed out The Witness cannot truly create or enact The Final Shape. Like I said, this reminds me of Melkor/Morgoth of Middle Earth. He was among the chief most spirits of Illuvatar (God), and in his hubris he sought to take the powers or role of his creator because he given such a lofty title. He effectively believed was the greatest and should make creation as he saw fit. Even trying and failing to find the source of his creator's power. All that left him bitter,entitled, and resentful...but despite not truly being able to create life, he could corrupt it. This how the Orcs, Goblins, and other evil creatures on Middle Earth came about. Keep in mind, Melkor/Morgoth was allusion to The Devil, as Illuvatar is God. The Witness is very much of a very similar ilk. It cannot create as The Traveler or provide enlightenment as The Veil does, only corrupt and twist. The precursors also had a "fall from grace"/"rebellion against God" when they attempted to link The Veil to The Traveler and enact The Final Shape as they believe was correct (this is provided they correctly understood the vision The Veil showed them, or if there was more to it). The Traveler and it's Light left them, and in the Darkness...these former beings of Light turned into something truly evil in The Darkness. (To clarify this is not say the Darkness is evil, but how The Witness came about and wielded it certainly is.)
@@eeveeofalltrades4780 “They were pure evil. Trust me, they deserved to die.” -the guy who killed them. You will always see people who kill millions say they deserved it. Some of the worst things imaginable has been done with the best intentions.
@@DeusExAngelo I mean, you started talking about theology, I am just following through. However I will agree the Witness feels somewhat similar to Melkor. The veil didn’t provide enlightenment, it killed many people and caused Maya Sundaresh to nearly recreate the Witness or at least a being in the same way. Hell, the Veil literally facilitated the creation of the Witness in the first place. However, in spite of all that, the Veil has been used for some good, it advanced the SIVA Nanites into Quicksilver, it’s mere presence on Neptune caused the Vex to put up a Obfuscation Simulation, ironically protecting Neomunas growth for decades due to the Vex’s obsession with acquiring the Veil. And most greatly, the Veil allowed for the creation of the CloudArk, possibly Humanitys greatest, and first Paracausal creation, facilitating coordination, communication, socialization, and surveillance. Lastly, I see the Traveler as the “grand traitor” in destiny as I think it can be said they rebelled from the Precursors plans, as the Precursors were on a pretty god-like path already. The Precursors and by extension the Witness is the more powerful force with the Traveler and it’s uplifted being on the backfoot, similar to the Devil and his angels. We see from the Tower of the Watcher Lore that the Pyramid Ships have even darkened habitable worlds in the Andromeda Galaxy.
In a system of dualism, 2 opposing powers who form a whole, one side alone can not achieve the ultimate. As Byf said: the Witness thinking it can do this without the light was pure hubris.
Just wanna say about the shaker from the sponsor segment, it’s strong af. It’s fallen off my car a few times and ran over and still kept its shape and gave me no issues
I don’t think the Witness hates the Light, I think it needs to utilize both and got the Darkness because it was easier. What’s interesting is that there is evidence to suggest that Nezarec, the Herald of the First Collapse, somehow managed to utilize light to some extent. He was first described as *“The Purest Light,* The Darkest Hour.” And in the Root of Nightmares Raid, he said that the Light Power that resurrected him was *“familiar”* to him. This also explains why Nezarec seems to be the Witnesses most valued Disciple. It literally built Statues to him on his Pyramid Ship and tried to heal him upon finding his corpse. (Of course failing because Witness did not have the Light) Nezarec got the closest to the Witnesses ultimate goal! This also explains why the Witness tried to indoctrinate Guardians into becoming Disciples, they had achieved what only Nezarec before could, use of the Light and Darkness together without the forces cancelling each other out. This is just speculation on my part, but perhaps the Witness secretly gave Nezarecs helmet (and maybe Robes) to the Guardians in an effort to say “you are both similar” Oh and lastly, I think that Ancient D1 Grimoire Card were a Thatanonaut Guardian had a vision of the Black Garden, with a Flower in the shape of a Ghost beneath him. He reached down to pick it, but it pricked him, and spoke, *”You are a Dead Thing, made by a Dead Power, in the Shape of the Dead. All you will ever do is kill. You do not belong here, for this is a place of life.”* - I very strongly think this was the Witness that Posessed a Ghost. So the Witness has tracked us and our skill at killing, it reminded it of Nezarec and tried to make us accept that. Oh, and you know how Fikrul also frequently calls us “Dead Thing”? What if the Witness would communicate to Fikrul inbetween deaths as well, calling Guardians dead things, in an effort to appeal to him into Discipleship, but just like the Guardians, he rejected the Witness!!
Nezarec still has to be the most interesting character in lore in my opinion. His powers and backstory are so damn interesting. Rhulk is amazing but i think hes so fleshed out where as Nezarec still has so much mystery behind him.
On the idea of Nezarec being able to use The Light, his main schtick is entirely Void related The Nezarec’s Sin Helm is tied to void (Void weapon kills grant ability energy), Tormentors - beings made in Nezarec’s image, and often having the title of “Aspect of Nezarec” - throw out Void projectiles and can Suppress targets - one of many Void Debuffs. Hell, Nezarec himself can suppress you, too - he does so a lot in Root. His wipe mechanic even has void purple fill the edges of your screen The guy is Void’s strongest soldier and biggest fanboy
@@fishnutz5196 And on the note of his uniqueness as a villain, he's the only one to properly act like one. Every other villain has some form of good intention behind them, often times they are simply mislead. But Nezarec is truly evil, you can hear it in his voice, and in his laugh, a laugh we've never heard at anytime before meeting him, a laugh of pure malevolence. No one in the world of Destiny REALLY has true malevolence towards the universe, but that's where Nezarec stands out.
Ya know… after watching this , it really does explain that final scene with the Witness and Calus saying he has all the power in the universe and he chooses to do with it is chase the traveler, not knowing what it actually knows it needs it for . I know hearing that from someone else had it pissed
A clue may be in its name. The Witness. It recreates what it sees, but they are only immitations. Thus, they are flawed because it only has the superficial elements to base off of.
I took it as a reference to quantum physics. Schrodinger's Cat exists in multiple states simultaneously until observed, the possibilities of reality crunched down into a single final shape... same general idea, right?
Honestly, the Precursors remind me a lot of the Ancients from ffxiv. They were both much more advanced than the the main cast and they were both killed due to their actions
I've always figured the Witness operated on the philosophical idea that extreme but limited suffering is superior to tiny but countless and unending suffering. Like looking at the absolute value of suffering in the universe if it ends in the Final Shape forcefully, violently and instantly, or if it'll take infinite time to slowly uplift all beings in the universe in a gentler method. Considering the end outcome only, the violent method has a definite amount of pain, even if it was massive for a figure number of people.
I’m really into getting more info on the Witness. Potential to exploit a weakness the more we learn because we developed no countermeasures effective to hurt the Witness after we had ample time to try and find one.
I think Mara at the end there is suggesting we destroy thr Traveler and the Veil from the inside somehow, to stop any being from ever doing this again. If it is true that any species blessed for so long becomes like the Precursors were, maybe it's best none are ever blessed again.
maybe kill, but not destroy. The pale heart will stick around as an destination after all, and they implied that it will react to you finishing the campaign Dreaming City style. Would be hard if the thing just blows up
remember in the 2nd Queen visits Mara actually says she should have destroyed the traveler long ago but didnt bcs of the fear of people that what might thrive without it and not enough fear of the war it seeks out
After so many studies, I see the Light and Dark for what they are now. The very essence of reality itself. The domain of the Light being the Domain of the Physical. The domain of Darkness being the Domain of Sentience. Both are key aspects in writing reality itself, which is what the Witness is trying to do in its “perfect shape”. But the only way to remove all chaotic elements is to erase everything entirely. Irony from Savathun’s “two truths and two lies”. “The final shape is nothing”. Neither a lie nor a truth, but an educated guess. One where she is not wrong.
Spoiler for final shape (what was recently revealed) Leave if you do not want spoilers for the dlc Now we know that being able to master both dark and light merging it into one creates prismatic energy a sort of energy that causes a state of transcendent when both light and darkness is in perfect balance within one, empowering the user.
What I think is interesting is the witness's need for a desicive conclusive "End" or "Final answer". It needs something perfect. The light however extends its being to those who have already lost (discarded answers) and through culminative effort has become the one thing all darkness cannot yet extinguish as we still remain their greatest foe that continues to bleed them. I think the witness will lose because it's final shape (answer) would be found in a place that it hasn't affected at all. Essentially it's own philosophy limits itself to ever move forward from this final answer. To use the light it would have to admit it's own thought process has failed
It still cannot enact a true Final Shape, for THAT Final Shape is beyond it even if it managed to harness the power of the Light. That which is created cannot outmatch it's creator, only reflect it.
The witness is a corporate manager, it sees itself as the best and most important thing and so it's idea must be the best and most important. It will brook no dissent, even as on some level it must understand it needs others, but rather than raise others up, it can only exploit those who are actually capable of achieving what it wants. The witness is Bungie execs.
This proves that killing Nezarec is probably the most important thing we’ve done so far. Nezarec is exactly what the Witness wanted at the time. A being that serves the Witness and can utilize both Light and Darkness. Nez was the only Lightbearer on the Witness’s side, which I assume made him extremely important to it, given the Witness can’t use the Light itself. If left unchecked, Nezarec could have been used by the Witness to completely dominate us. Thankfully, that’s no longer a possibility. But on the other hand, none of that matters now since the Witness is inside the Traveler and can now probably use the Light itself. No proxies or disciples needed.
What will happen when the light and dark are combined again? Will that being be the one to actually defeat the witness? I recently came across the concept of monad and it seems to really resonate a lot with the philosophical ideas presented in Destiny.
1 thing i dont think the scorn are always hollow and the lore also suggest otherwise the scorn only appear hollow once they are 'conected' to the witnes. The bosses in warlord ruin used to support fikrul bit got taken over by the witness
After the talk of one of the precursors possibly escaping, I'm now wondering if they managed to take refuge in the traveller, and that's whose voice we hear in the trailer.
Rhulk could probably have known about the witnesses limitations along with its desire to achieve the final shape in its version of the final shape. The prophecy wall involves a disciple it would have already existed. We were just going through the steps of uncovering it.
The Witness hates the Light so much it needs it to succeed. Aftet all, the Dark cannot exist without the Light. Like how peace cannot exist without chaos.
Somewhere, Ulan-Tan is laughing at most of the people in the City about how his Symmetry philosophy was proven correct. If you don’t know, he was a controversial Warlock that’d died many years after he’d been banished from the City. He’d believed, light and dark, were nuetral forces of nature that needed to exist to balance each other in the universe. Though, one dent in his belief, was that we would need to give up the light to get rid of the darkness. Turns out, we can wield both in balance. Though, this merely reinforces, that Ulan was right. Osiris had similar views, but his main concern was the Traveler, as he’d questioned its seemingly infallible intentions as well. It’s agenda. By Witch Queen, Osiris was proven right to question it.
Indeed. For there to be anything on the good/high/strong/positive side of the spectrum, there must be things on the bad/low/weak/negative side of the spectrum. Otherwise, the spectrum does not exist. No love without hate. No hot without cold. No life without death. No peace without war. No harmony without discord. No hope without despair. *No Light without Darkness.* There can never be Darkness without Light. Let’s take a tidally locked planet as an example. There are three zones: the scorched front, the frozen back and the lush ring. Creatures on the scorched front only know Light. Creatures on the frozen back only know Darkness. Creatures on the lush ring can see both. To the planet itself (if it could think), Light and Darkness both exist, meaning it knows there exist a spectrum from the deepest Darkness to the brightest Light. Likewise, creatures on the lush ring see both Light and Darkness (and the transition across the sky). However, creatures on either side of the tidally locked planet only know their side of the spectrum, not the other side of the spectrum nor the spectrum itself. To them, this spectrum does not exist.
@@garrettviewegh9028 "Therefore, I conclude: the reason you persecute me is not because of the symmetry. It's because of the truth beyond this truth, the truth which you most dread: if we could destroy darkness, but we had to give up our Light to do so, how many of us would make that trade?" - Warlock Ulan-Tan, "Symmetry Flight" Ship
Thinking about it. It does make sense now why the Witness seems to be entirely different from what the Penitents was. Perhaps it's due to HNW and those who had a similar opinion as him. "What if destruction was a part of the Final Shape?" this thought must've caused a fatal flaw in the creation of the Witness. Where, instead of creating something that would bring about the Final Shape through greater good, they instead created an entity that will do anything to fulfill its purpose. The Witness had always been about purpose and meaning. Rhulk, the one who had the closest understanding of the Final Shape, said that the disciples aren't gods nor kings. They are prophets for the Witness. They are there to help the Witness bring the Final Shape into fruition, nothing more, nothing less. To destroy all obstacles in your path until you reach where you meant to be. It's kinda amazing cause the Witness' philosophies had always been infallible. Despite how indifferent, cold, and cruel its views are, you cannot really deny that there's always truth into it. To the point that the only true way to denounce the Witness is to throw an ideal against it. No one can win against the Witness in a battle of truths, and so the Traveler presented an ideal. One which the Witness cannot accept.
Listening to this, and seeing all that's coming in the livestreams I'm finally looking forward to playing destiny again! Like it's been forever (like week 5 of Sotwish) and God damn I'm actually getting excited again I actually have hope that bungie can follow through
This reminded me of an interesting bit of lore, please correct me if I’m misremembering it. During the Collapse, Savathun was allied with the Witness but fled when she realized the full scope of its plan for the Traveler. We learn in Witch Queen that the Traveler gifted Savathun the light. We always know that Mara knows more than she is willing to share at times whether it was Riven or the entrance to the Black Garden. But I feel like we haven’t seen the last of Savathun. She’s the only one who has dealt in both the Light and the Dark outside of ourselves and I would say she’s come closer to enacting A final shape than anyone else we have run into. I don’t think we’re done with the Witch Queen yet.
Seeing the image of the Precursors, I wonder if Xur might be one of them, his will taken by the Nine to hide from the consensus. Or something. Probably not. But then again... maybe?
Dude im so glad i got thw collector's edition for the lore book alone. It has been so cool to read it make my own theories and conclusions on it and see what other people think as well and from what i read im really looking forward to see your thoughts on the conversation between mara and ido. (i suck at names and forgot how to spell ido's name lmao)
19:41 sounds like The Endless Now in Xenoblade 3. Does The Witness fear non-existence, and want to turn the world into a timeless void where everything remains static?
I have a theory about the black heart, and it only just now hit me. What if when the Witness said "your pale heart holds the key", it was referring to our ghost? The Witness was only able to create the link between the Traveler and the Veil due to our ghost being present.
It's really interesting/fun that the relationship between the Witness and the Traveler almost mirror the relationship between Morgoth (Melkor) and Eru Iluvatar in Tolkien's legendarium. Morgoth desires the ability to create and shape life but that power is reserved for Eru who only has such powers through the Flame Imperishable (the Secret Fire) basically the LIGHT of Creation. And as a result Morgoth twists and corrupts already existing life forms rather than truly creating his own. And as a result hates Eru Iluvatar and wages wars in his pursuit of, well, basically the Light.
I have a theory that the “Cayde” who guides us inside the Traveller could be “Rorschach”. He ran from the Penitent and the merging Precursors. He ran from the Witness. As a scientist he very well could have figured that it how to utilize the Veil to enter the Witness. The Witness takes our own form to try to communicate with us. Why would Rorschach not take a friendly form if he was still alive? He possibly could’ve have hidden the Veil, entered the Traveller and been on the run ever since. Thoughts?
Byf, have you considered posting the audio to ur lore videos in the form of a podcast on Spotify? I would love to listen to ur lore descriptions while gamin
So what if the witness already knows the method to bring around the final shape, but cant, being imperfect. So the campaign of tfs him fooling/subtly teaching it to us, the guardian to bring around, as we are able to wield both?
Hey byf you’ve talked about it before about the glass minds just being the vex and I wanted to ask about The Precursor vex you know the white and gold dudes? Plus the pyramidian on IO and how pyramidian is a word they use to describe the final shape?
The camp fire in Mara's dream is representative of what? Friendship? A safe place in the darkness? Respite? Hope? Obviously in the cinematics we've got Cayde appearing by the camp fire, then everyone gathering around one. A literal camp fire is one thing but Bungie being Bungie, will mean something way deeper.
A lot of people have a lot of good and valid points. This definitely gets the imagination and creativity going into overdrive. 🤔🤔 I, myself, have to concur with those who brought up the correlation between the witness and Morgoth from Tolkien. As much as the witness wants control of creation but it can't so it's creations are as Byf said, hollow. This reminds me of Morgoth after he had stolen the silmarils. Even with their power he couldn't bring forth true life. In this I see the witness ultimately failing in the end, not just for story plot armor, but failing not just cause of it's hubris but also because with it's deep seating hatred of the traveler, even with having both light and dark, the witness is still missing a crucial piece to create what it strives for. For something to be whole of two halves, it must be brought into harmony together, and the witness is incapable of harmony with the way the witness was created with the dissenters being "removed" and only those who agreed were combined. Hence, there is a lack of harmony within the witness. Harmony, in this case , is both for and against a final shape by arriving at a common middle ground.
I keep thinking of that female character from the traveller’s early concept video, whenever I see precursors’ sketches. What if one of them; i.e. HNW and RS is that female? What if the witness’ lead player is HNW and was actually talking to RS all this time in the cutscenes? What if the traveller is the pale-heart of RS? I’d love to see that twist come to pass :)
Its seems that in merging the Precursors may have been selective about memeories of the past but they neglected to forget the sense if abandonment and betrayal the traveler left when it fled. Purhaps this is what tainted the pool and its why the Witness does not avoid creating siffering wherever it goes. Ultimately its hatred of the traveler turned into a hatred of life itself
I believe the witness needed to enter the traveller to corrupt its mind/heart and replace the gardener. With the power of the traveller he can return every planet he has taken in the universe and terraform life in the image of his final shape.
To put it simple: There is no life without death There is no good without evil There is no light without dark There is no Ying without Yang ... From the Video Title I get a very strong Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring flashback from Gandalf's Speech to Frodo in Moria about Gollum and the Ring. ^^
I wonder if the Raid mechanic against The Witness is going to involve forcing it to doubt The Final Shape 🤔 Remember how mad it got when Calus called it out for all the things it didn't do with all the power it possesses? That's really the only time I've seen it lose that nonchalant demeanor, and that could be one of its only weaknesses
The Witness's forces aren't "imperfect" by lacking purpose, that is intentional. If they don't have any purpose/desires other than that of the Witness then they can't suffer. They are exactly what the Witness wants: AI-driven appendages that can't suffer, bots. It just uses the existing templates of self-replicating creations because it can't create brand new things without the power of the light. What it can do is recombine creations, stitching them together with darkness powers. Hence why we see all the attempts inside the ships. It's trying to create without the power of ex nilo creation.
Hey @MynameisByf - I was always curious why the Aeon gauntlets used red, blue and green instead of orange, light blue, and purple. That's when I noticed that it uses green like strand, blue like stasis, and red like the supposed subclass leak. Upon reading the lore, it reads like a message sent from the darkness. I don't know if there is any connection here or if perhaps it was some kind of foreshadowing? Who are the aeon cult? Would love to see you dive into these gauntlets and anything in the lore about them!
Oh how I wish this was the stuff we got in Lightfall. It is what it is, just glad we are getting all of this now. If the campaign and the raid are a success, the bare minimum, I will be satisfied.
My concerns are the campaign feeling rushed trying to wrap up too much. They have put emphasis on us spending time with all our allies and getting to know them better. I don’t feel we need that, we have had 9 years with them. I want to make sure the witness is as satisfying as ending Savathun was. But the reason that it was is because we lost multiple times and had plenty of time to understand their capability. The witness is a newborn in terms of lore up until now in comparison.
@@therockfan10001 Eh, i wouldnt say a new Born. its first mentioned during the Presage exotic mission, and later, clearer, during season of the lost, both in Beyond Light. Witch Queen is simply where we got its official Name and Face Revealed. 3 Years isnt really new.
1. We learned from The Prophecy Dungeon, that we need both Light and Dark to progress 2. Buddhism teaches that all life is suffering and that all things are temporary. Enlightenment involves realizing both and engendering the understanding to achieve happiness. 3. The Witness doesn’t have the capacity to understand any of this.
This concept reminds me of "The Three Body Problem" series, where there was an ancient race that wanted to return the universe to its original number of dimensions. Can't remember which book but I think it's one of the later ones, 3 or the paraquel #4.
I don’t think there is much difference between the precursors and the witness… the precursors made the choice to become the witness and they did that once they had already gone down the logical path of their bad ideas. By selectively leaving their history and identities behind they just gave up the ability to change or divert their course.
While Bungie no doubt put a ton of work and forethought into their lore to get to this point, I don't think it's as much of a "whoa" moment conclusion as they intended. The Light and Traveler being the physical aspect of the universe, and the Darkness and Veil being consciousness? Yeah, that's just what you get when... Joe Rogan hosts a podcast with Alex Jones, Brian Greene, Paul Stamets, and Eddie Bravo.
Savathun you magnificent b.... she figured it all out and that's why she was after the Light....and got it. You can't outpace the Final Shape unless you got the light, once again proving that she played chess while everyone else was playing checkers.
Yknow i dont know if its been mentioned in the lore but what would happen if a taken was "corrupted" by the light ? Would it then gain free will ? Would it become a new being ? Maybe return to being normal non taken ? Or do they just become stronger by "consuming" the light ?
To be honest i don't think the witness is the one that talks about the sword logic tbh. Like for the most part to me it seems likely that the witness is also just somewhat influenced by the actual winnower, the entity behind the veil
The most interesting thing about the Witness is that it needs allies, like Rhulk, the Hive, Calus, Nezarec, and even tried to convince the Guardian to join it.
It’s one of the next things I’m gonna cover from the collectors edition lore. Why does a god care about the thoughts of mortals?
@@MynameisByf Looking forward to it, thanks for the hard work!
@@MynameisByfit probably doesn’t, but uses things we might care about to get us to work for the witness. in simpler words, manipulation
@MynameisByf is it a god? Does it even believe itself to be? It's just a powerful being
@@MynameisByfyou'd think it would just snap any detractors from existence like what they did to Reed and his ghost
The comment Mara made on taxidermy wasnt related to the failed copies The Witness makes, it was a statement about what The Witness desires with the universe. Endless, Unchanging, Perfection
Also, dead. Something Nice for its owner to look upon, but lifeless.
I think both work taxidermy makes a facsimile of life that's not truly living just like all of the witnesses creations but is also timeless and unchanging
Wow that’s a big integral part of Destiny’s lore… which I’ve already completely forgotten about because we just learned Eliksni chirp when they’re super happy! That’s so adorable!😂😂😂
Crazy that the precursors did all that despite being ottsels, Jak and Daxter prepped us for this
lmao
At the end of Mara's dream, she said she felt a campfire. Maybe that means that her connection to Crow is strengthening now, which would make sense since we're nearing TFS
I took it differently. She was in a nightmare. But when she woke up, a warm campfire chased the cold away. Its like a subtle message. So she woke up and then things are fine. And the imagery of that was a campfire chasing the cold, a light and heat source. Lets take the light part, and then we can see this. Even after she saw the witness dream, she is then reminded that its not over. Because this cold was chased away by the light. That alone could say many more different things but the simplest one is this one. The takeaway is that she woke up and know it is not over through the small event being able to feel warmth from the cold before.
@@MICROKNIGHT3000it could be a double entendre. The campfire is both a metaphor and the literal camp fire we see in the Final Shape teaser with Cayde-6 talking to Ikora.
The Witness is Morgoth. Everything it creates ends in failure because it doesn't have The Flame Imperishable.
Kind of interesting how the Vex are an even less perfect version of the Witness, trying to make the universe empty and dark of all but Vex.
The Vex want to turn the universe in a Maschine that create a new universe. They simulate the light... Maybe to stop the final shape of the witness and to create their own
@@SkellyHertzAnd each Vex unit is a tiny witness; a being composed of and animated by millions of radiolarian bacteria working in concert, as the witness is it's whole civilisation in one.
Mine is the whole being the crime source of all evil. Not figuratively literally, Morgoth is the original evil that all evil comes from
That's the 'secret' boss that was added last year, eh?
I hope that we see more of this aspect Witnesses character in the final shape, the witness is in my opinion a fantastic villain. A spiteful, hateful, unhinged genocider, masking under a seemingly calm and collected demeanor, only a facade to the in reality, not rational or calm or collected inside that we see glimpses of in the story and more in the lore. I mean, in its eyes, imagining your god abandoning you, despite being with you for millions of years, when you believed you were finally close to achieving your supposed purpose. The witness is the combined hatred and despair of possibly billions of beings, with any humanity they had left being ripped from them by the veil. This villain is so interesting and yet, Bungie hasn't explored this aspect in game enough, hopefully the final shape does this.
Found Rhulk
I like The Witness as a concept, but I still think it was a missed opportunity to make them a primordial entity that embodies the philosophy of Darkness. Now that we know it came from just another alien race, they no longer have that feeling of being “above” the universe.
in my opinion, the winnower and the witness are different entities, they speak differently, have different motivations, and the collectors edition lore confirms this almost. The witness is deeply concerned with not just being right but making the universe suffer for being wrong, making the followers of the traveler condemn it before it wipes them out. On the other hand, the winnower is a calm and collected god being, that does not care what you think, it knows its right and does not feel the need to prove it to anyone.
Mara's dream reminded me of this quote from Doctor Who: "There's all sorts of realities around us, different dimensions, billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in between, containing absolutely nothing. Imagine that. Nothing. No light, no dark, no up, no down, no life, no time. Without end. My people called it the Void. The Eternals call it the Howling. But some people call it Hell."
My favorite moment with the Witness was in lightfall when Calus is ranting and boasting and the Witness just turns around and floats away 😂😂.. with this whole "im tired of dealing with this guy" vibe. Its hilarious.
Like when some is annoying you and you just walk away from the convo. 😂 it was actually shown in this video and i laughed a good healthy laugh.
I love that scene.
I couldve taken away such important information and understanding...but all i took away was the fact that Eido is so goddamn adorable
I'd romance her if this was Mass Effect. A nerdy yet wise and charismatic doofus, like Tali.
@@Altherotwtf 😭
Down bad is an understatement
@@Altherot "we need to know less about each other"
Yeah no@@Altherot
The Witness looks to create a universe of complete consensus. To create such a world, either everyone needs to be merged into the Witness or the Witness's consciousness needs to be placed in all life. The Witness reminds me of Agent Smith from The Matrix and Reverend Kane from Poltergeist.
water haters when they need water
I can't see the witness as a serious threat anymore after someone put cat ears and whiskers on it
The Kitness lol.
When did you ever see it as a threat?
@@colt4505seeing it cut a guardian and ghost into pieces with the flick of it's wrist should be a pretty good reason to view it as a threat.
The traveler is just a big ball of yarn😊
I don't how anyone has ever taken his Megamind looking ass seriously.
I actually find it funny, the Witness hates the Light, but needs it for its goal to create the Final Shape, yet we guardians hated the Darkness, but needed its power to protect not just humanity of both Earth and Neomuna, but also our allies of the Cabal Ascendancy, the House of Light, and the Awoken of the Reef.
There's definitely an element of irony here. But while the Witness needs the Light, it takes it by force. The Guardians have gained their powers not by conquering (at least not entirely) but through alliance.
If I'd get the chance to Join the Darkness I would to without a sweat.
I fallen off the destiny two gameplay, but do we actually need the darkness powers? I know narratively we’re supposed to need them. does the game actually mandate We have to use them at any certain point to progress through the story?
I fallen off the destiny two gameplay, but do we actually need the darkness powers? I know narratively we’re supposed to need them. does the game actually mandate We have to use them at any certain point to progress through the story?
@@SpottedHaresThroughout both beyond light and Lightfall campaigns, yes. There are things you must use Stasis or Strand ability damage in order to progress.
My personal thought is that the Pale Heart is the Traveler's consciousness, the environment its thoughts and memories. The Witness used the Veil to enter it so it can consume the light and basically become God of the universe. Perhaps the Pale Heart is also a kind of afterlife for Lightbearers?
I’ve had a theory for a while now: Cayde was not brought back with a wish from Riven. He was waken up early. Deep within the Traveler, the manifestation of the Traveler, the Gardner: a pale women glowing with Light. Has been collecting and strengthening every Guardian legend that’s lived and died a final death, protecting others, herself, and Sol. She has been silent to us for so long, because she’d been focused gathering and rallying an army of Guardians to protect her Garden, and the Pale Heart. She’s crated an army of the spirits of Guardian legends, because she forsaw the final battle in this timeline. Where she must make herself vulnerable, and put her faith in us, to save her, and work with her army to defend her from the within her domain. The Iron Lords, Six Cyotes, Pilgrim Guard, Sunbreakers, all dead, she would raise from their sleep, to meet us, and defend her domain together aginst the Witness’ invasion. Cayde was merely woken up early. This area of her Garden domain, as akin to Valhalla for dead Guardian legends.
I like this
Lore Daddy Byf be the only thing that keeps me in the destiny universe
Not gonna lie, that's how I currently feel right now as well.
ON GOD i’ve long perfected my arsenal for pve perfection and it all lost purpose . Byf gives me that purpose.
I dont even play the game havent for like half a year lmao, only byf makes it tolerable
Other than its lore
What I appreciate about The Witness is how it is very much Destiny version of The Devil done right. (Much like Melkor/Morgoth from Middle Earth). A being of existential evil.
Not just by the nature of it being the setting's big bad and evil, but it's modus operandi, motivation, and in-game history.
Is the Witness a fallen angel? No. Yet it was the first species uplifted by the Traveler and had a close relationship with it. They gained much insight, power, and paradise from their god, but many among them began to doubt it's power and motives.
They ultimately came to the conclusion that they knew better than their god, the one who gave them everything, and desired to reshape the universe as they saw fit. They believed in their hubris they knew what The Final Shape should be. (The road to hell is paved with good intentions).
Them becoming The Witness is akin to their fall, if The Devil and the host of heaven became one. A cold deciever with deep seated rage and hatred of the god and it's creation that spurned them. One that believes it is ultimately right and unable (or unwilling) to consider it may be wrong.
Beyond that, we see how it chooses it's Disciples and what it turns them into. It whispers softly and quietly, exacerbating their traumas and suffering, promising them power and purpose, turning them into beings like it. Beings of hurt and hatred, who become their worst selves. Mass genocidal psychopathes and manipulators. All the while seemingly being unaware they will be cast away when they are no longer useful. That their master does not really care about them beyond that.
It also knowlingly causes mass suffering, in part because I believe it uses the Darkness to draw power from it, but also because of it's deep-seated rage and hatred. Especially those who were uplifted by The Traveler. I think in part because of envy, but also in part of wanting The Traveler to suffer everytime. Much like The Devil wanting to spite God.
I mean, I’ve read the Bible multiple times and god commits genoc1de several times, with the devil doing…none. So yeah I can understand his desire of trying to escape that. Wouldn’t the Witness being god make more sense? It kills a lot of people but always sees it’s actions as righteous and Salvation, with its enemy as pure evil despite never hurting anyone.
“You promised them life, but deliver only death, as you have to so many before.” - the guy killing everyone.
I don’t think the Traveler is god because god clearly and consistently issues commands, while the Traveler is silent to nearly everyone, even Ghaul who longed to speak to it.
I’ve seen some people compare the Traveler to Prometheus, as Prometheus gave the gift of fire to Humanity, jumpstarting their technological journey. For this, Zeus bounded him to a mountain to be picked at by birds for many years. Likewise, the Traveler gave the gift of the Light to Humanity, rapidly accelerating our technological advancement. The Witness punished the Traveler by nearly killing it, with pieces of it breaking off, some of them falling into the hands of the Hive to be drained of power. The Witness also made the Black Heart, which also began to drain the Traveler of its power.
Another interesting comparison is the Traveler is a powerful being in Bungies Marathon known as a “W'rkncacnter” which is described as a “being of absolute chaos” which is the exact same description given to the Traveler. The Traveler grants Chaos through power, the Witness imposes order through manipulation and control.
I mean, the Witnesses generals are literally called “Disciples” and it’s cause is claimed to be “Salvation”…
@@markricheard1870the only times God has committed genocide is when he destroys cities and nations where the people commit atrocities because of the Devil. Basically, against irredeemable people.
@@markricheard1870 It's not a perfect one to one comparison, merely a strong allusion and a possible inspiration for the story.
Though I made this post not to debate theology, (though I would strongly disagree that The Devil did nothing through the accounts whether one is a believer or not) but point to the strong similarties and/or parallels that suggest what may have inspired the character.
Even Byf pointed out The Witness cannot truly create or enact The Final Shape. Like I said, this reminds me of Melkor/Morgoth of Middle Earth.
He was among the chief most spirits of Illuvatar (God), and in his hubris he sought to take the powers or role of his creator because he given such a lofty title. He effectively believed was the greatest and should make creation as he saw fit. Even trying and failing to find the source of his creator's power.
All that left him bitter,entitled, and resentful...but despite not truly being able to create life, he could corrupt it. This how the Orcs, Goblins, and other evil creatures on Middle Earth came about. Keep in mind, Melkor/Morgoth was allusion to The Devil, as Illuvatar is God.
The Witness is very much of a very similar ilk. It cannot create as The Traveler or provide enlightenment as The Veil does, only corrupt and twist.
The precursors also had a "fall from grace"/"rebellion against God" when they attempted to link The Veil to The Traveler and enact The Final Shape as they believe was correct (this is provided they correctly understood the vision The Veil showed them, or if there was more to it). The Traveler and it's Light left them, and in the Darkness...these former beings of Light turned into something truly evil in The Darkness. (To clarify this is not say the Darkness is evil, but how The Witness came about and wielded it certainly is.)
@@eeveeofalltrades4780 “They were pure evil. Trust me, they deserved to die.” -the guy who killed them. You will always see people who kill millions say they deserved it.
Some of the worst things imaginable has been done with the best intentions.
@@DeusExAngelo I mean, you started talking about theology, I am just following through. However I will agree the Witness feels somewhat similar to Melkor.
The veil didn’t provide enlightenment, it killed many people and caused Maya Sundaresh to nearly recreate the Witness or at least a being in the same way. Hell, the Veil literally facilitated the creation of the Witness in the first place. However, in spite of all that, the Veil has been used for some good, it advanced the SIVA Nanites into Quicksilver, it’s mere presence on Neptune caused the Vex to put up a Obfuscation Simulation, ironically protecting Neomunas growth for decades due to the Vex’s obsession with acquiring the Veil. And most greatly, the Veil allowed for the creation of the CloudArk, possibly Humanitys greatest, and first Paracausal creation, facilitating coordination, communication, socialization, and surveillance.
Lastly, I see the Traveler as the “grand traitor” in destiny as I think it can be said they rebelled from the Precursors plans, as the Precursors were on a pretty god-like path already. The Precursors and by extension the Witness is the more powerful force with the Traveler and it’s uplifted being on the backfoot, similar to the Devil and his angels. We see from the Tower of the Watcher Lore that the Pyramid Ships have even darkened habitable worlds in the Andromeda Galaxy.
Eido is so relatable for making note of Mara smiling at her
In a system of dualism, 2 opposing powers who form a whole, one side alone can not achieve the ultimate.
As Byf said: the Witness thinking it can do this without the light was pure hubris.
Right off the bat, SO MANY TRIANGLES!!!
Just wanna say about the shaker from the sponsor segment, it’s strong af. It’s fallen off my car a few times and ran over and still kept its shape and gave me no issues
I don’t think the Witness hates the Light, I think it needs to utilize both and got the Darkness because it was easier.
What’s interesting is that there is evidence to suggest that Nezarec, the Herald of the First Collapse, somehow managed to utilize light to some extent. He was first described as *“The Purest Light,* The Darkest Hour.” And in the Root of Nightmares Raid, he said that the Light Power that resurrected him was *“familiar”* to him. This also explains why Nezarec seems to be the Witnesses most valued Disciple. It literally built Statues to him on his Pyramid Ship and tried to heal him upon finding his corpse. (Of course failing because Witness did not have the Light) Nezarec got the closest to the Witnesses ultimate goal!
This also explains why the Witness tried to indoctrinate Guardians into becoming Disciples, they had achieved what only Nezarec before could, use of the Light and Darkness together without the forces cancelling each other out.
This is just speculation on my part, but perhaps the Witness secretly gave Nezarecs helmet (and maybe Robes) to the Guardians in an effort to say “you are both similar”
Oh and lastly, I think that Ancient D1 Grimoire Card were a Thatanonaut Guardian had a vision of the Black Garden, with a Flower in the shape of a Ghost beneath him. He reached down to pick it, but it pricked him, and spoke, *”You are a Dead Thing, made by a Dead Power, in the Shape of the Dead. All you will ever do is kill. You do not belong here, for this is a place of life.”* - I very strongly think this was the Witness that Posessed a Ghost. So the Witness has tracked us and our skill at killing, it reminded it of Nezarec and tried to make us accept that.
Oh, and you know how Fikrul also frequently calls us “Dead Thing”? What if the Witness would communicate to Fikrul inbetween deaths as well, calling Guardians dead things, in an effort to appeal to him into Discipleship, but just like the Guardians, he rejected the Witness!!
Nezarec still has to be the most interesting character in lore in my opinion. His powers and backstory are so damn interesting. Rhulk is amazing but i think hes so fleshed out where as Nezarec still has so much mystery behind him.
On the idea of Nezarec being able to use The Light, his main schtick is entirely Void related
The Nezarec’s Sin Helm is tied to void (Void weapon kills grant ability energy), Tormentors - beings made in Nezarec’s image, and often having the title of “Aspect of Nezarec” - throw out Void projectiles and can Suppress targets - one of many Void Debuffs. Hell, Nezarec himself can suppress you, too - he does so a lot in Root. His wipe mechanic even has void purple fill the edges of your screen
The guy is Void’s strongest soldier and biggest fanboy
@@duublo1216 I agree! Void may be the light aspect he accessed.
@@fishnutz5196 And on the note of his uniqueness as a villain, he's the only one to properly act like one.
Every other villain has some form of good intention behind them, often times they are simply mislead. But Nezarec is truly evil, you can hear it in his voice, and in his laugh, a laugh we've never heard at anytime before meeting him, a laugh of pure malevolence.
No one in the world of Destiny REALLY has true malevolence towards the universe, but that's where Nezarec stands out.
Plot twist marathon is the final shape and marathon is actually d3.
Isn't marathon technically Destiny -2?
@@SymbioteMullet No its Halo - 1
@@jonhawk117 wasn't Pathways into Darkness after Marathon but before Halo?
Actually wait, we forgot about Oni again as well
Ya know… after watching this , it really does explain that final scene with the Witness and Calus saying he has all the power in the universe and he chooses to do with it is chase the traveler, not knowing what it actually knows it needs it for . I know hearing that from someone else had it pissed
A clue may be in its name. The Witness. It recreates what it sees, but they are only immitations. Thus, they are flawed because it only has the superficial elements to base off of.
Isn't it supposed to represent how the Witness has "witnessed" the "true" nature/purpose of the universe?
Could be both, the observer of the end or the one who enacts the final vision@@eeveeofalltrades4780
I took it as a reference to quantum physics. Schrodinger's Cat exists in multiple states simultaneously until observed, the possibilities of reality crunched down into a single final shape... same general idea, right?
Honestly, the Precursors remind me a lot of the Ancients from ffxiv. They were both much more advanced than the the main cast and they were both killed due to their actions
I've always figured the Witness operated on the philosophical idea that extreme but limited suffering is superior to tiny but countless and unending suffering.
Like looking at the absolute value of suffering in the universe if it ends in the Final Shape forcefully, violently and instantly, or if it'll take infinite time to slowly uplift all beings in the universe in a gentler method. Considering the end outcome only, the violent method has a definite amount of pain, even if it was massive for a figure number of people.
I love that Eido is still an important part of the story, not just a one session character.
I’m really into getting more info on the Witness. Potential to exploit a weakness the more we learn because we developed no countermeasures effective to hurt the Witness after we had ample time to try and find one.
I think Mara at the end there is suggesting we destroy thr Traveler and the Veil from the inside somehow, to stop any being from ever doing this again. If it is true that any species blessed for so long becomes like the Precursors were, maybe it's best none are ever blessed again.
maybe kill, but not destroy. The pale heart will stick around as an destination after all, and they implied that it will react to you finishing the campaign Dreaming City style. Would be hard if the thing just blows up
remember in the 2nd Queen visits Mara actually says she should have destroyed the traveler long ago but didnt bcs of the fear of people that what might thrive without it and not enough fear of the war it seeks out
After so many studies, I see the Light and Dark for what they are now. The very essence of reality itself.
The domain of the Light being the Domain of the Physical.
The domain of Darkness being the Domain of Sentience.
Both are key aspects in writing reality itself, which is what the Witness is trying to do in its “perfect shape”. But the only way to remove all chaotic elements is to erase everything entirely.
Irony from Savathun’s “two truths and two lies”. “The final shape is nothing”. Neither a lie nor a truth, but an educated guess. One where she is not wrong.
Spoiler for final shape
(what was recently revealed)
Leave if you do not want spoilers for the dlc
Now we know that being able to master both dark and light merging it into one creates prismatic energy a sort of energy that causes a state of transcendent when both light and darkness is in perfect balance within one, empowering the user.
The Final Shape sounds like a more messed up Infinite Tsukuyomi from Naruto.
What I think is interesting is the witness's need for a desicive conclusive "End" or "Final answer". It needs something perfect.
The light however extends its being to those who have already lost (discarded answers) and through culminative effort has become the one thing all darkness cannot yet extinguish as we still remain their greatest foe that continues to bleed them.
I think the witness will lose because it's final shape (answer) would be found in a place that it hasn't affected at all. Essentially it's own philosophy limits itself to ever move forward from this final answer. To use the light it would have to admit it's own thought process has failed
Aaaah! Haven't played D2 in like a year but this video has me hyped for final.shape!
Yes, this is the video I've been waiting for. Thank you Byf!
I do t think that dream Mara witnessed is purely a dream… but what Crow is experiencing
The Witness: “I WANT THE FINAL SHAPE!!! I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT!!!”
Simply here to say I love Scribe Eido. Such a brilliant character
It still cannot enact a true Final Shape, for THAT Final Shape is beyond it even if it managed to harness the power of the Light. That which is created cannot outmatch it's creator, only reflect it.
Facts.
The witness is a corporate manager, it sees itself as the best and most important thing and so it's idea must be the best and most important. It will brook no dissent, even as on some level it must understand it needs others, but rather than raise others up, it can only exploit those who are actually capable of achieving what it wants. The witness is Bungie execs.
The noesis are the precursors!!!
Please cover this possibility!
This proves that killing Nezarec is probably the most important thing we’ve done so far. Nezarec is exactly what the Witness wanted at the time. A being that serves the Witness and can utilize both Light and Darkness. Nez was the only Lightbearer on the Witness’s side, which I assume made him extremely important to it, given the Witness can’t use the Light itself. If left unchecked, Nezarec could have been used by the Witness to completely dominate us. Thankfully, that’s no longer a possibility. But on the other hand, none of that matters now since the Witness is inside the Traveler and can now probably use the Light itself. No proxies or disciples needed.
What will happen when the light and dark are combined again? Will that being be the one to actually defeat the witness? I recently came across the concept of monad and it seems to really resonate a lot with the philosophical ideas presented in Destiny.
Was the campfire in reference to something with cayde? He was sitting at one in TFS
1 thing i dont think the scorn are always hollow and the lore also suggest otherwise the scorn only appear hollow once they are 'conected' to the witnes. The bosses in warlord ruin used to support fikrul bit got taken over by the witness
After the talk of one of the precursors possibly escaping, I'm now wondering if they managed to take refuge in the traveller, and that's whose voice we hear in the trailer.
Rhulk could probably have known about the witnesses limitations along with its desire to achieve the final shape in its version of the final shape. The prophecy wall involves a disciple it would have already existed. We were just going through the steps of uncovering it.
Didn't the prophecy wall say the witness would eat the light?
@@jokeyxero specifically it was drink the light, and then it would kill ____. The very last symbol was never filled in
The Witness hates the Light so much it needs it to succeed. Aftet all, the Dark cannot exist without the Light. Like how peace cannot exist without chaos.
Somewhere, Ulan-Tan is laughing at most of the people in the City about how his Symmetry philosophy was proven correct. If you don’t know, he was a controversial Warlock that’d died many years after he’d been banished from the City. He’d believed, light and dark, were nuetral forces of nature that needed to exist to balance each other in the universe. Though, one dent in his belief, was that we would need to give up the light to get rid of the darkness. Turns out, we can wield both in balance. Though, this merely reinforces, that Ulan was right. Osiris had similar views, but his main concern was the Traveler, as he’d questioned its seemingly infallible intentions as well. It’s agenda. By Witch Queen, Osiris was proven right to question it.
Indeed. For there to be anything on the good/high/strong/positive side of the spectrum, there must be things on the bad/low/weak/negative side of the spectrum. Otherwise, the spectrum does not exist.
No love without hate.
No hot without cold.
No life without death.
No peace without war.
No harmony without discord.
No hope without despair.
*No Light without Darkness.*
There can never be Darkness without Light.
Let’s take a tidally locked planet as an example. There are three zones: the scorched front, the frozen back and the lush ring.
Creatures on the scorched front only know Light.
Creatures on the frozen back only know Darkness.
Creatures on the lush ring can see both.
To the planet itself (if it could think), Light and Darkness both exist, meaning it knows there exist a spectrum from the deepest Darkness to the brightest Light.
Likewise, creatures on the lush ring see both Light and Darkness (and the transition across the sky).
However, creatures on either side of the tidally locked planet only know their side of the spectrum, not the other side of the spectrum nor the spectrum itself. To them, this spectrum does not exist.
@@garrettviewegh9028
"Therefore, I conclude: the reason you persecute me is not because of the symmetry. It's because of the truth beyond this truth, the truth which you most dread: if we could destroy darkness, but we had to give up our Light to do so, how many of us would make that trade?" - Warlock Ulan-Tan, "Symmetry Flight" Ship
There is no good without evil. There is no rich without the poor. My god. Thanos was right.
Without light, all you have is dark.
Thinking about it. It does make sense now why the Witness seems to be entirely different from what the Penitents was. Perhaps it's due to HNW and those who had a similar opinion as him. "What if destruction was a part of the Final Shape?" this thought must've caused a fatal flaw in the creation of the Witness. Where, instead of creating something that would bring about the Final Shape through greater good, they instead created an entity that will do anything to fulfill its purpose.
The Witness had always been about purpose and meaning. Rhulk, the one who had the closest understanding of the Final Shape, said that the disciples aren't gods nor kings. They are prophets for the Witness. They are there to help the Witness bring the Final Shape into fruition, nothing more, nothing less. To destroy all obstacles in your path until you reach where you meant to be.
It's kinda amazing cause the Witness' philosophies had always been infallible. Despite how indifferent, cold, and cruel its views are, you cannot really deny that there's always truth into it. To the point that the only true way to denounce the Witness is to throw an ideal against it. No one can win against the Witness in a battle of truths, and so the Traveler presented an ideal. One which the Witness cannot accept.
Listening to this, and seeing all that's coming in the livestreams I'm finally looking forward to playing destiny again! Like it's been forever (like week 5 of Sotwish) and God damn I'm actually getting excited again I actually have hope that bungie can follow through
This reminded me of an interesting bit of lore, please correct me if I’m misremembering it.
During the Collapse, Savathun was allied with the Witness but fled when she realized the full scope of its plan for the Traveler. We learn in Witch Queen that the Traveler gifted Savathun the light.
We always know that Mara knows more than she is willing to share at times whether it was Riven or the entrance to the Black Garden.
But I feel like we haven’t seen the last of Savathun. She’s the only one who has dealt in both the Light and the Dark outside of ourselves and I would say she’s come closer to enacting A final shape than anyone else we have run into.
I don’t think we’re done with the Witch Queen yet.
Seeing the image of the Precursors, I wonder if Xur might be one of them, his will taken by the Nine to hide from the consensus. Or something. Probably not. But then again... maybe?
Dude im so glad i got thw collector's edition for the lore book alone. It has been so cool to read it make my own theories and conclusions on it and see what other people think as well and from what i read im really looking forward to see your thoughts on the conversation between mara and ido. (i suck at names and forgot how to spell ido's name lmao)
19:41 sounds like The Endless Now in Xenoblade 3. Does The Witness fear non-existence, and want to turn the world into a timeless void where everything remains static?
That Wisconsin accent escaped you at the end there. Just so present
I have a theory about the black heart, and it only just now hit me.
What if when the Witness said "your pale heart holds the key", it was referring to our ghost?
The Witness was only able to create the link between the Traveler and the Veil due to our ghost being present.
So... The Traveler is running from a psychotic, obsessed ex. Seems there's a lot of that happening to them.
It's really interesting/fun that the relationship between the Witness and the Traveler almost mirror the relationship between Morgoth (Melkor) and Eru Iluvatar in Tolkien's legendarium. Morgoth desires the ability to create and shape life but that power is reserved for Eru who only has such powers through the Flame Imperishable (the Secret Fire) basically the LIGHT of Creation. And as a result Morgoth twists and corrupts already existing life forms rather than truly creating his own. And as a result hates Eru Iluvatar and wages wars in his pursuit of, well, basically the Light.
I have a theory that the “Cayde” who guides us inside the Traveller could be “Rorschach”.
He ran from the Penitent and the merging Precursors. He ran from the Witness. As a scientist he very well could have figured that it how to utilize the Veil to enter the Witness.
The Witness takes our own form to try to communicate with us. Why would Rorschach not take a friendly form if he was still alive?
He possibly could’ve have hidden the Veil, entered the Traveller and been on the run ever since. Thoughts?
Byf, have you considered posting the audio to ur lore videos in the form of a podcast on Spotify? I would love to listen to ur lore descriptions while gamin
So what if the witness already knows the method to bring around the final shape, but cant, being imperfect. So the campaign of tfs him fooling/subtly teaching it to us, the guardian to bring around, as we are able to wield both?
Thank you for keeping Destiny 2 alive Byf. Love your videos.
The Thumbnail:"Why is it spicy?!"
Hey byf you’ve talked about it before about the glass minds just being the vex and I wanted to ask about The Precursor vex you know the white and gold dudes? Plus the pyramidian on IO and how pyramidian is a word they use to describe the final shape?
One must imagine the witness happy
Eido being acknowledged by Mara as exemplary is so wonderful
Funny how only when we have only the light and no understanding of duality. Usually ends up corrupted
The camp fire in Mara's dream is representative of what? Friendship? A safe place in the darkness? Respite? Hope? Obviously in the cinematics we've got Cayde appearing by the camp fire, then everyone gathering around one. A literal camp fire is one thing but Bungie being Bungie, will mean something way deeper.
A lot of people have a lot of good and valid points.
This definitely gets the imagination and creativity going into overdrive. 🤔🤔
I, myself, have to concur with those who brought up the correlation between the witness and Morgoth from Tolkien. As much as the witness wants control of creation but it can't so it's creations are as Byf said, hollow. This reminds me of Morgoth after he had stolen the silmarils. Even with their power he couldn't bring forth true life.
In this I see the witness ultimately failing in the end, not just for story plot armor, but failing not just cause of it's hubris but also because with it's deep seating hatred of the traveler, even with having both light and dark, the witness is still missing a crucial piece to create what it strives for.
For something to be whole of two halves, it must be brought into harmony together, and the witness is incapable of harmony with the way the witness was created with the dissenters being "removed" and only those who agreed were combined. Hence, there is a lack of harmony within the witness.
Harmony, in this case , is both for and against a final shape by arriving at a common middle ground.
The comparisons here makes me think the Veil corrupted the precursors in some way when they merged.
One could say, the Wittness is the upper management.
more than i'm curious about how the final shape will unfold, i'm so looking forward to how they will continue the story afterwards, what is next?
I keep thinking of that female character from the traveller’s early concept video, whenever I see precursors’ sketches.
What if one of them; i.e. HNW and RS is that female?
What if the witness’ lead player is HNW and was actually talking to RS all this time in the cutscenes?
What if the traveller is the pale-heart of RS?
I’d love to see that twist come to pass :)
That thumbnail is on point.
Its seems that in merging the Precursors may have been selective about memeories of the past but they neglected to forget the sense if abandonment and betrayal the traveler left when it fled. Purhaps this is what tainted the pool and its why the Witness does not avoid creating siffering wherever it goes. Ultimately its hatred of the traveler turned into a hatred of life itself
I believe the witness needed to enter the traveller to corrupt its mind/heart and replace the gardener.
With the power of the traveller he can return every planet he has taken in the universe and terraform life in the image of his final shape.
To put it simple:
There is no life without death
There is no good without evil
There is no light without dark
There is no Ying without Yang
...
From the Video Title I get a very strong Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring flashback from Gandalf's Speech to Frodo in Moria about Gollum and the Ring.
^^
Love your videos! Keep up the great work! From a big fan in NEW YORK CITY
3:24
"Their doubt was their most important trait"
I had to double take at first but I think this line is repeated twice by accident in the editing.
Or maybe it's there to make you doubt.
The thumbnail looks like a quote from Gollum lmao.
Commenting for the algorithm. Byf you’re the man.
I wonder if the Raid mechanic against The Witness is going to involve forcing it to doubt The Final Shape 🤔
Remember how mad it got when Calus called it out for all the things it didn't do with all the power it possesses? That's really the only time I've seen it lose that nonchalant demeanor, and that could be one of its only weaknesses
How Menacing... Great Work Byf!!!
The Witness's forces aren't "imperfect" by lacking purpose, that is intentional. If they don't have any purpose/desires other than that of the Witness then they can't suffer. They are exactly what the Witness wants: AI-driven appendages that can't suffer, bots. It just uses the existing templates of self-replicating creations because it can't create brand new things without the power of the light. What it can do is recombine creations, stitching them together with darkness powers. Hence why we see all the attempts inside the ships. It's trying to create without the power of ex nilo creation.
Hey @MynameisByf - I was always curious why the Aeon gauntlets used red, blue and green instead of orange, light blue, and purple. That's when I noticed that it uses green like strand, blue like stasis, and red like the supposed subclass leak. Upon reading the lore, it reads like a message sent from the darkness. I don't know if there is any connection here or if perhaps it was some kind of foreshadowing? Who are the aeon cult? Would love to see you dive into these gauntlets and anything in the lore about them!
Oh how I wish this was the stuff we got in Lightfall. It is what it is, just glad we are getting all of this now. If the campaign and the raid are a success, the bare minimum, I will be satisfied.
My concerns are the campaign feeling rushed trying to wrap up too much. They have put emphasis on us spending time with all our allies and getting to know them better. I don’t feel we need that, we have had 9 years with them. I want to make sure the witness is as satisfying as ending Savathun was. But the reason that it was is because we lost multiple times and had plenty of time to understand their capability. The witness is a newborn in terms of lore up until now in comparison.
@@therockfan10001 Eh, i wouldnt say a new Born. its first mentioned during the Presage exotic mission, and later, clearer, during season of the lost, both in Beyond Light. Witch Queen is simply where we got its official Name and Face Revealed. 3 Years isnt really new.
Without watching the video at all and only reading the title I can assume the light is like crack for the witness and the witness is a adict
Witness being all "angry" sounds great amd all, but unless he actually harms us on screen, i can't take him seriously
The witness plan: by any means necessary
Us gaurdians: trying to fix everything being broken before the universe itself collapses
lol
1. We learned from The Prophecy Dungeon, that we need both Light and Dark to progress
2. Buddhism teaches that all life is suffering and that all things are temporary. Enlightenment involves realizing both and engendering the understanding to achieve happiness.
3. The Witness doesn’t have the capacity to understand any of this.
Aren’t a good portion of the Shadow Legion Egregore constructs?
This concept reminds me of "The Three Body Problem" series, where there was an ancient race that wanted to return the universe to its original number of dimensions. Can't remember which book but I think it's one of the later ones, 3 or the paraquel #4.
I don’t think there is much difference between the precursors and the witness… the precursors made the choice to become the witness and they did that once they had already gone down the logical path of their bad ideas. By selectively leaving their history and identities behind they just gave up the ability to change or divert their course.
Ooh that just really irk the witness and that makes me happy lol
While Bungie no doubt put a ton of work and forethought into their lore to get to this point, I don't think it's as much of a "whoa" moment conclusion as they intended. The Light and Traveler being the physical aspect of the universe, and the Darkness and Veil being consciousness? Yeah, that's just what you get when...
Joe Rogan hosts a podcast with Alex Jones, Brian Greene, Paul Stamets, and Eddie Bravo.
Savathun you magnificent b.... she figured it all out and that's why she was after the Light....and got it.
You can't outpace the Final Shape unless you got the light, once again proving that she played chess while everyone else was playing checkers.
Yknow i dont know if its been mentioned in the lore but what would happen if a taken was "corrupted" by the light ? Would it then gain free will ? Would it become a new being ? Maybe return to being normal non taken ? Or do they just become stronger by "consuming" the light ?
Thumbnail gives off 28 days later vibes
To be honest i don't think the witness is the one that talks about the sword logic tbh. Like for the most part to me it seems likely that the witness is also just somewhat influenced by the actual winnower, the entity behind the veil
3:27, 3:37, and 3:42 thought i was having a stroke