This Waterproof Coat Doesn't Use Gore-Tex (And That's a Good Thing)
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- I've always been fascinated by the discussion around Gore-Tex effectiveness and the idea of using a membrane in a coat for waterproofness has never sat well with me. As such I've been using an alternative to Gore-Tex for 20 years (I got the fleece in the old photos in the video when I was about 18) that I think is fascinating in the way it works and they are still quite an underdog in the outdoor waterproof coat scene.
This video is not sponsored by Paramo and I've bought all my Paramo coats with my own money. Learn more about the coats in this video:
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That was a well put together piece. I teach outdoors and have done for 25 years. My Paramo Anaolgy jackets have worked longer in more environments and outlasted every other (and I've tried everything!) jacket I have. The core truth is that nothing is waterproof always and everywhere. Paramo Analogy (well looked after) is drier longer and in more places and situations. Our entire outdoor staff (20 outdoor teachers) are issued Paramo.
Great comment thanks!
Slight terminology correction: liquid water on a wetted out face fabric is just liquid water, I incorrectly referred to it as 100% humidity. The term '100% humidity' is best to only be used to describe moist air at the point it can't accept any more moisture. Much more on this in my next video.
the problem you described in the video can be solved by higher air pressure inside. In general, vapor pressure near body is higher than outside because body is hotter. As result vapor migrates outside. But if outside temperature is close to body temp, vapor pressure outside can be higher if humidity is high enough. This is problem for both systems: membrane and 'fur'.
@@inevespaceabsolutely, I get to the bottom of that in my next video. It's still a loose loose - if it's cool enough for vapour pressure differece you get condensation. If it's warm enough for similar temps you just get 100% RH on the inside so you get liquid sweat building up.
i was mindblown as a child when I learned rain does not mean 100% humidity :D
Also "waterproof" is actually "water resistant".
@@xTatsuran Semantics. I remember when Paramo were dealing with people grumbling about them using the word waterproof. It seems to have blown over now that they have the 4 hour rain room test. I'm happy using the word if they are.
I had a pair of Paramo trousers years ago and whenever it rained my legs felt soaking wet & whenever it was dry they were to hot to wear . The best way to view Gortex is as a windproof outer shell that'll keep you warm and keeps you dry in rain to a certain extent
Yes! Hope to see more NikWax products available globally. I've never even seen a Paramo anywhere I buy, but I've been using NikWax liquids to improve water resistance of leather and clothing since about 2006. Going steady
Totally agree. I am a Paramo fan and have used their product for a long time. Also look at Ventile jackets as another alternative to GORE Tex. Ventile is a tight weave cotton that becomes waterproof as it gets wet. Take a look at Hilltrek (UK firm) as they specialise in it. Invented during WW2. I have a Ventile jacket and have been very impressed with it.
Thanks! Yeah I did do some reading on Ventile and I do remember being interested. What kind of situations would you choose it over Paramo? Also, curious, were you an existing subscriber or is this the first video of mine?
@@BenVallack Ventile is no longer an uncoated material, from what I’ve read it’s all produced in Switzerland these days and uses a DWR from the factory. It was invented before the war, for non-clothing purposes.
@@BenVallack been a subscriber for about 2 years.
@@88sstraightah that's interesting thanks
@@88sstraightI believe they treat the fabric because consumers expect to see water bead off a jacket, having been conditioned to expect this by the use of DWR on plastic garments. Ventile was developed before such compounds existed and was supposed to work by getting wet. The older version of Ventile produced in Switzerland used the toxic PFC treatment but the organic version is treated with Nikwax DWR according to the brand which made my jacket. I have let this wear off and won't be renewing it as Ventile needs to absorb water in order to work. In prolonged heavy rain one won't be totally dry in either a Páramo or a Ventile garment but, having owned both I've sold ALL my Páramo stuff and am now solely using double Ventile without any unnecessary DWR. I also no longer own or want any Goretex or similar garments.
Hydrostatic head is badly used in tents too. A totally pointless metric for a coat or a fly sheet. It makes some sense in ground sheets where the pressure from weight above the groundsheet forces water up from wet ground below, but it’s not really mentioned there.
Bought one a long time ago. Cost the earth. From the first day, when it rained, I got wet. Wore it three times. The last time, I got soaked. I don't know whether it was faulty or simple didn't work but all I know is, I got wet and the coat cost a fortune. As for guarantees, well you can imagine how that worked out.
It's like you pre-empted my need to get a new coat... I'll be checking them out. Thanks for the tip Ben! As always, making life work better.
I also have a Paramo Alta III for winter time and I love it. But honestly, as soon as it gets over ~15°C outside, you just cannot handle the thick, warm and heavy fabric that is the nature of Analogy products. This is where I still use my ultra light GoreTex (packlite) jacket.
It also seems that you have quite a lot of money to blow on waterproof jackets. Paramo solutions (and GoreTex Shakedry) hover around 300 to 400£, which is a notable sum considering GoreTex starts at around 180£ (with cheaper membrane products around the 100£ mark). Not everyone has the money to "buy into" Paramo products. I hope that with popularity they will get a bit more affordeable without sacrificing on labor conditions and the environment.
Cheers!
Yeah... let's hope that the processes get streamlined, economy of scale will kick in and the prices will drop.
I consider Paramo to be cheaper than Gore-tex actually - the Helki was £240. I just had a quick look on Arctreyx and saw plenty of Gore-Tex coats £400-£500!
@BenVallack my hardshell Saleva goretex jacket that saved my ass a bunch of times in rain during warmer months and wet snow mixed with rain or freezing rain in winter was 160 EUR. It kept me fairly dry too (although I do have good base layers etc.) even while skiing, hiking, or riding a bike. I was just on the Paramo website their cheapest jacket is 320 EUR. Does it deliver twice the performance?
@@MrGreenAKAguci00it might last twice as long, with proper maintenance. But that depends on your use I imagine
@@TheShortStory Keep in mind you also have to factor in the more frequent Nikwax treatments, because it is the least durable of the DWR's/hydrophobic coatings. That equals a greater expense in both money and time.
Thankfully I like to think for myself, think outside of boxes, and came up with a solution that is better than all the commercial solutions I've tried so far. If you go to "newest comments" first, you should see my thoroughly outlined solution. Took some definite thought and experimentation. But not only does it work, it works extremely well.
I really wish we can more easily get Paramo products in the US. I've heard about their jackets for a while now, but have to wait until I visit the UK in the future to buy one.
And in Switzerland (and rest of europe) please. I only got my Paramo because we went to England for a month. They should scale up their distribution capabilities asap
I simply love it when people use their heads and evaluate reality and don’t base their opinions on marketing! Outstanding job with this video! ❤
Thanks so much!
There's a sentence in english, that explains waterproofing and it goes like this. "..you simply suggest for the droplets to take another path.." This is what water proofing is.
I'm not having much luck getting one of these shipped to the US. I'm surprised that they don't seem to have a US distributor.
Yeah I did wonder if they'd be hard to get over there. Maybe just a question of getting enough demand to make it worth soreone's while getting a bunch imported.
@@BenVallackNor they shipped to Colombia. Which comes to me as a surprise given that their coats are made in Colombia and the name Paramo is pretty much inspired by Colombia's Páramos.
Ah yeah that's really frustating isn't it!
it's only popular in certain regions. USA has too many big brands to the point where many other brands have a hard time getting a piece of the pie. Even Mountain Equipment brand is hard to find in usa.
Some of their distributors ship to the US with no problem.
as someone who doesn't sweat all that much, I actually find that a combination of an umbrella and a waterproof (like an old rubbery raincoat) jacket are best - I hope people consider this, because these options seem to be dwindling. Even my 'vintage brand' coat uses this material mostly for aesthetics, as the chain is not properly sealed and the hood does not protect the face.
Your skin is not meant to be completely dry in any case - rain is uncomfortable because it is cold afaik. For everyday use (not wearing for a full day/intense activity regularly) I believe the old style of coat is the best.
the maintenance factor is really the thing that drives me away from these coats - to hear that I will have to reapply the water repellant is frustrating.
I do wish I could find that style of hood on other coats though!
Yeah I do think there is mileage in this kind of idea. I actually got a waxed cotton Barbour based on this idea. It was ok in a lot of situations but the fabric randomly tore just after the warranty expired so I've turned my back on them now!
Australian and New Zealand armies which both operate in native and pacific rainforests, both use tactical umbrellas. Basically camouflaged short umbrellas as quick position rain cover or cover when on marches where sweat makes raincoats pointless
How often do you need to reapply the coating, and what's the cost to do that?
Depends really how much you use it - I'm actually not out in the rain that much so I get away with probably once a year. If I was wearing them more though I'd be happy doing at 2 or 3 times per year. It's about £3 per treatment if you use the Tech Wash to wash first then the TX Direct after.
@@BenVallack thanks
@@BenVallack Perhaps a short video showing how to do this would be useful?
will the paramo with when you're hiking with a backpack? i reckon that the shoulders where the straps are will get soaked pretty fast?
The jacket in the video is the HELKI
Just always think if you actually need technical hard shell jacket. These will never actually keep you dry with tons of rain when active, they will keep you warm when combined with layers. For me, non-breathable very basic cheap rain suit is thing I use for my bikepacking for example. I don't do these trips when it gets cold, so I can always just wear something that can keep me bit warm when wet, like merino under layer along with maybe extremely thin jacket to just block some wind. It's all you need when you are active.
On other hand cheap basic impenetrable rain suit is just best when in camp or town. thing I actually use for biking is rain covers for shoes, other than that I'm wet.
Overall, do you actually need to be be shielded from rain when on move? I would argue where hardshells shine is wet snow, in winter conditions. Or just as jacket for your city life. And as far as I know this is pretty much what it was made for.
Have you tried waxed cotton clothing for outdoor waterproofing?
I did try a Barbour. It tore just after the warranty expired so that was that! Also I would say it's as breathable as a plastic bag even when not raining!
@@BenVallack Right: I use a waxed cotton brimmed hat, but that's the extent of it. I'll try one of these coats,
@@BenVallackI agree, waxed cotton jackets are sweat factories! I have a nice waxed fedora by Failsworth and a couple of their waxed cotton flat caps, and some waxed cotton gaiters to protect my Ventile trousers from damage but that's it for my waxed cotton gear these days.
I hate the fact that you have to DWR them often to keep them waterproof. Where a membrane jacket can wet-out but it will keep you dry if you are only mildy active. Where if you dont have the upkeep right on the paramo jackets you are just wearing any old jacket that will soak you if wearing in the rain.
Goretex jackets like Arcteryx also require a lot of upkeep to maintain their efficacy over time.
@@davef5916 maybe one wash per season / year of use. Depending on the person and use.
I've wondered for years why Paramo doesn't sell to the US market and why Nikwax doesn't sell Analogy fabric to US outdoor gear brands.
Yeah I think they're actually quite a small company and maybe they're at the point that to do that would mean new factories etc that they just don't want to get involved with (just my assessment, I might be totally wrong).
Really well made video, Ben! I was wondering how quickly those jackets are drying. For multi day hikes this could potentially be an issue if it's still wet in the morning. Other than that, it's a fascinating technology I wish I knew about before buying a rather expensive gore tex jacket.
Gave up trying to stay dry ages ago. No I just wear clothing under my chosen outer layer that keeps you warm when wet. That’s any man made fibre base layer and either a Montane Protium hoodie or Paramo Bento fleece. And recently a Simms SolarFlex hoodie. The Simms hoodie performs brilliantly. Though expensive.
I've been wearing Paramo (Cascada) exclusively since I first got it in 2011.
I have two Paramo Jackets and I love to use them in Temperatures under 12°C. I wish they would make an ultralight version for warmer conditions.
Yeah they are warm - I guess when you mimic animal fur that's going to be a bit of an issue!
Really well explained. 🙏
I’m new to this sort of thing. I think a fully waterproof poncho is probably better than all of these materials. It keeps out 100% of the water and ventilates fro below. If you do get a bit hot you can swish it out.
Comments please?
Agree in principle but haven't tried one - downsides are style and behaviour in wind I think!
@@BenVallack I agree about the wind but you obviously don’t know me if you mention style!😂.
Was looking at buying one but realised it doesn’t ship to Singapore. Would love to get one if possible.
See the fortnine video comparing waterproofing materials for breathability and waterproofing.
I prefer d-dry based on that test suite.
Edit after watching the video:
Yah I get the desire to have tests that allow active pumping materials be able to be tested.
Though to be fair if we really want the best performance we would wear ponchos with very large baffles that allow us to turn away from the rain and lift them to release the hot air every now and then.
But that results in an insanely unfashionable thing, at least in most current cultures.
As for what that poncho should be made of I beleive much more in full membrains than active pumping since a poncho with baffles overlaps heavily with the problems active pumping helps mitigate, yet is way better at them. Vs the problem of heavy hard wind and rain which active pumping is weak to and membranes are alot better at.
Yeah he's just doing the same kind of test on them that the manufacturers do. I.e testing waterproofness in a situation unlike any kind of real life environment (we don't need pressure resitance) and then testing breathability when it's not actually raining. My next video looks at this issue in more detail but these tests don't represent comfort in the rain at all. They are good for testing breathability when it's not raining though which is not insignificant, especially for situations like biking gear so it's still useful but I'm coming at it from a different direction. In fact motorbikes might be one of the few situations where waterproofness under pressure might be a useful metric!
@@BenVallack rain with wind is common. Static pressure test looks suitable for such scenario (30mph wind is not something extraordinary). Also an important aspect demonstrated by this test is how you feel when seat on a wet surface.
@@inevespace I don't think wind in a real life situation would ever force liquid into the material much though, it will just blow it away because it isn't held in a fixed volume. Sitting on a wet surface is definitaley relevant though and absolutely one of Paramo's weaknesses!
I think the pressure gets important once you plan on wearing a Backpack above the jacket
Yep Nexus.
So do their coats not use PFAS chemicals?
Nm, you answered at the end of the video.
Thanks for watching to the end!
Great video! Love the editing. When you mention the harm in producing Gore Text products (toxic waste, affected water supply, factory problems, etc.) it would be good to add links/pics to the video to support your claim :)
Thanks! I just got that from the Wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-Tex
I like the concept of Paramo overall (I even bought a Paramo pump liner from Scotland some years back). My two main (and big) issues with Paramo are 1. the price-these systems are quite expensive and 2. the notable lack of durability of the DWR/hydrophobic coating (Nikwax) that is used.
I both thought long and hard, and did some experimentation with much less expensive but more durable solutions. So far, my best solution is the following: Buy an inexpensive (but fabric based, so not too inexpensive!) poncho. Next, cut out a large rectangle from the front of the poncho. Basically from almost the neck down to the waist, and as wide as your chest. (Typically will be something like 1 ft wide x 2 ft long or so).
Get an uncoated, pretty breathable but not ultra breathable, decently light polyester fabric (smooth taffeta works best). Then get some 100% clear silicone caulk and thin it very well with a good solvent (like naphtha). You want to thin it significantly more than, say if you're seam sealing or re-coating a silnylon or silypoly shelter. Soak that polyester fabric that is approximately 1 ft wide by 2 ft long in the thinned silicone, then let it dry/cure outside.
To that, we're going to sew some inexpensive medium weight non woven polypropylene fabric of the same dimensions. You know that kind that some inexpensive reusable grocery bags are made out of--the kind that is rather porous/breathable. Then to that, you're going to sew some kind of DWR treated mesh type fabric i.e. ultra breathable. If you want something really cheap, take some of the above thinned silicone caulk and dunk some nylon tulle in it. Personally I prefer Ripstop by the roll's Monolite fabric or Dutchware Gear's Cloud fabrics (same stuff btw)-much more durable than tulle, regular mozzie netting, etc.
Sew that ultra breathable fabric to the above composite. Then sew that, you guessed it, to open part of the front of the poncho (treat the seams with the same thinned silicone). Even with these 3 fabrics sewn together, you should be able to suck or blow some air through all 3 layers-not struggling but not super easy either (breathability should be like a good windjacket, or to put it into quantifiable terms, the CFM levels should range somewhere between 20 and 50). That's key. If it's not, you've either used too tightly woven polyester for the first fabric _and/or_ you didn't thin the silicone enough, or if the latter (too breathable), the opposite. Take two coffee filters, put them together and breathe through. That's about what you're aiming for.
Almost done but not quite. Importantly, wear a fishnet as a baselayer (preferably a polypropylene based one-fastest drying garment known to humanity). Over that, wear a thin, well wicking polyester (preferably low spandex/lycra type content) l.s. baselayer shirt of that. The combination of of mechanical venting of the poncho with the breathable but highly water resistant front panel will, in combo with the right baselayer combo, do you good in a wide range of conditions. Some water might get through, like with the Paramo systems, but your body heat will quickly remove it.
If it is particularly heavy and sustained rain and/or on the cold side, wear a non wicking polypropylene l.s. baselayer (like Terramar makes) over the polyester baselayer (which, as mentioned is over a fishnet true/first baselayer).
I have tried many different things. Nothing I've tried so far has compared to the above. It does require some experimentation and holistic thought, but really isn't hard to do. I know people don't like the looks of a poncho or the potential flapping. As to the first, I don't care at all (how immature/shallow, function should always trump form). As to the second, I put a piece of shock cord connected through a few loops that cinches the back fabric around my pack tightly and with the excess, I just tie it lightly around my waist-hence little to no "dreaded" poncho flapping.
Meanwhile, the silicone coating on the polyester face fabric will last a long time and be quite durable (unlike a Nikwax coating or any traditional DWR type coating. The silicone coating is much more durable simply for the fact that it is MUCH more thick than most DWR coatings are). And you can do all this for pretty inexpensive (provided you already have or know someone with a sewing machine). You can also use tyvek "kite" cloth instead of the non woven polypropylene, my first iteration used soft tyvek kite cloth fabric, but I don't recommend this as this material is surprisingly thermally conductive (about the same as water if I remember correctly-look up HDPE material's thermal conductivity) and condensation can build up on it easy. Also not as breathable as the nonwoven PP material, while the PP material is quite thermally non-conductive and thus better in cool + wet conditions.
Despite my issues with Paramo, I still liked your video. It's always good to think outside of boxes, to question the mainstream, etc.
Btw, if it is not clear in the above. The silicone coated polyester fabric should be the first face layer that is facing the rain/weather, the PP or tyvek cloth should be the next "core" layer, and then the ultra breathable mesh layer will be the closest to and facing your body. Multiple reasons for this. The silicone polyester coated fabric will be stronger and more durable than the other two layers, and it will be much more UV resistant than the PP or Tyvek cloth layer (on a side note: black colored PP material will last much longer with UV exposure than white or very light colored PP material). And the mesh layer just doesn't shed water well enough to be on the outside. It is mainly there to protect the core PP/Tyvek layer from body oils (especially when you touch the garment with your hands), friction with your clothes, etc.
Once in a blue moon, you will have to cleanse, degrease, and rinse very well this garment to bring it back to 100% function. But far less often than you would have to do a Nikwax treatment on Paramo. Also depends on how much or little bushwhacking you do. If say you're spending a month in Alaska, walking through wet brush etc constantly, then yeah, you will probably need to do the above after. If you primarily walk on trails and don't come into much contact with plant matter etc, maybe once a year or every two years. Walking through wet brush and the like, removes Nikwax and traditional DWR coatings very quickly btw, especially when combined with heavy sustained rains.
My system isn't "perfect", but its near to being the closest thing until unobtanium super materials are developed that are super hydrophobic, while being ultralight and quite breathable. Don't hold your breath though.
Extremely fascinating to read - thank you for taking the time to write that up!
@@BenVallack No problem, and cheers from the other side of the pond.
@@BenVallack Btw, since my first two posts were on the long side, I didn't mention that I like to cut off the hood from the poncho, and instead what I do, is take a synthetic, more stiff wide brimmed sun hat, treat it with the thinned silicone caulk.
Then I sew 4 tabs of velcro/hook & loop to the brim of the hat. I take some of the polyester fabric treated with silicone and sew it to some PP fabric (same combo as the above, but without the mesh inner) and sew corresponded velcro/hook & loop tabs to the fabric that line up with the velcro tabs on the hat.
So my hat is a WPB hat when I need it, and a very breathable Sun hat when I need it. The fabric covering does look a bit funny, but it makes the hat more wind shedding, and adds very little weight to the overall system.
I'm a systems thinker and love multi-purpose items.
If you want to check out my very first, very crude iteration, check out/look up back packing l!ght "odd/unique but very breathable rain gear system".
@@BenVallack If you want to look up my very first iteration from geez, almost a decade ago now, look up backpacking light odd/unique but very breathable rain gear system. (it's on a forum).
(I was new to sewing, fabric cutting, etc at the time, and it's not very pretty looking since I was in a rush to get it made for my Colorado Trail hiking trip. Also note, I did not treat a polyester fabric like I recommend in the above, but rather used a silnylon fabric that tested very poorly as to HH, and then ran that folded up under a non threaded sewing machine needle to puncture the silicone film/coating on it to make it more breathable).
so it's kinda a very water wicking fabric? Is it similar to how wool is water repelant? I'm trying out a waxed canvas jacket for a kinda more durable, less synthetic water resistant pollution, unfortunantly they're not breathable. Thanks for mentioning this, haven't heard of Paramo jackets, but I have heard of Nik Wax
I love my shakedry jacket for cycling and haven't found anything better or even comparable but I coulf be swayed towards paramo for hiking where getting so hot isnt as big a factor and lightness is the main downside for me.
My current hiking raincoat is a non breathable single skin jacket by frogg toggs called the Xtreme Light. Its brilliant as an extremely lightweight emergency rain protection and is like a much less breathable shake dry.
Yeah Shakedry is very cool. I think the Paramo and Shakdry combo is a versatile pair. I sold all the old coats I had hanging around to justify the Helki so I'm left with the Paramo, Shakedry and a down jacket (the black one seen in some of the vids I did recently, it was about £20 on Vinted!). The issue with the down jacket is we often have wet and cold weather in the UK so I think I'd like to get the Paramo insulator that is designed to be worn over the top of the normal paramo and it doesn't matter if it gets wet.
Weight is a really important consideration for hikers, runners etc. How does the weight of the Analogy technology compare to Gore-Tex??
My hunch is they are super heavy?
They have some quite light ones actually these days - the Velez is 600g. It's definitely a bit heavier though - but than means it's better at insulating in colder temps too (but of course that could be a negative in warmer temps too).
Over time, all of my winter jackets seemed to lose their ability to repel water. I suspect that is because a waterproof spray coating fails over time with washing and exposure to rain. The "breathable membrane" material doesn't seem to fail. Nonetheless, the jackets become sopping messes. Not 100% sure what was happening.
Yeah the impact of face fabric DWR failing seems to be pretty serious. I do wonder if it's things like seems and de-lamination that goes on as well. The problem with the membrane approach is that a single failure anywhere on the jacket can have a pretty serious impact!
Try a Brynje mesh baselayer under this jacket.
Have one ready to do just that when it gets a bit colder!
@@BenVallack Oh, nice!!
Lot of weatherproof clothing uses PFC / PFAS / forever chemicals which are a serious pollution concern since they don't biodegrade and instead accumulate in the food chain. Paramo has rejected using those chemicals so they should be applauded for that.
Thank you!
what about using ptfe fibres to make it hydrophobic?
ptfe fibres sounds like an absolute health disaster.
@@BenVallack they ae
re inert. only problem is during manufactue
re, which has been fixed
May I introduce you to - waxed canvas. Cheaper, stronger, and re-treatable for next to nothing. Get you a waxed canvas poncho and you're set for life.
Maybe I missed it. What is your height/weight and which size are you wearing in the video?
I’m ordering from outside uk, so I’d like to get the size right. Thanks
Approx 6'1, 180kg - size Large. cheers!
Thanks for the video. So this is just a spray on waxing layer that is hydrophobic. Could you not apply that to any jacket? I have seen numerous hydrophobic sprays in my local outdoors stores so what makes Paramore jackets suited and uniqely positioned to apply this spray? I have a Fjallraven jacket, that I apply wax to once a year which has the same affect too using their G1000 fabric.
Paramo works in a bit of a different way - it's makes fibres hydrophobic not a waxy layer - and it's not just the outer fabric that the hydrophobic coating works on. It's the individual fibres of the liner too - which then work like animal fur to move liquid water away from your skin. Things like greenland wax on G1000 just create a waxed layer like waxed cotton - this blocks water more or less from both directions simply through creating a layer of wax. This is the way I understand it at least!
😅get me 4 coats all dem dark grey
Missed your videos :0
Releasing weekly again now 😀Friday at 6pm UK time.
@@BenVallack Someday I will invite you for a breakfast or lunch when Im back in the northern cold spots :D
How does that compare to a Buffalo with Pertex?
I think they are more for really cold and wet situations. They keep you warm even when wet, and are designed to be worn next to skin. I don't think they claim to have any directional behaviour. Less practical as an everyday coat if you have to be naked under it!
Mmh, I love the textile tech, but... they are really expensive and they don't have any sizes larger than XXL
Cheap compared to Gore-tex gear!
Great points but... like.... Teflon: it's all Teflon: Gore Tex and all the other identical products are made of PFAS. Paramo used to be too, not anymore though. Nikwax is clear too. Blows my mind people still talk about these brands as if leisurewear performance is what counts here. The Gore Tex name should be cursed right now.
At this point I'd just get a 100% water blocking PU raincoat
I dont understand the paramo thing. Thise jackets are not waterproof. Expensive lesson by the way.im not saying that goretx is the answer, but saying that analogy systems are waterproof is simply not true. It passes the shower test but if you put a backpack on... Tou are going to get wet through the shoulders, no doubt about it.
If you've been wearing it for 20 years? What other brands have been/are using this technology?x
hilltrek.co.uk/shop-by-material/cotton-analogy/ That's the only one I know of.
With gor-tex you’re paying for the name… you can get wet while wearing a gore-tex jacket due to sweat.
You don't have to excuse your dog. I like the rustling!
Heh!
@@BenVallack On a sidenote. Since you're very interested in keyboards. Have you heard of CharaChorder, yet? They're a company who're trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to typing/interacting with computers (similar to DataHand, if you've seen that before, but with some really interesting new twists). Thought it might be cool to share that this existed, in case you haven't seen it yet.
i just want a jacket made from the shit they make umbrellas from. i never had a leaky umbrella. 200euro gortex leaks in 5 mins.
Plastic poncho still the best. 100% waterproof and breathable armpits. Also fits a pack.
Paramo actually make one - quite tempted to try one.
Its to thick and warm. A rain coat has to provide zero insulation or you cant ware it over 10c without over heating.
Yeah that is the issue in the summer - generally in England it's usually cold though so works pretty well!
I have a Goretex shell for when I'm cycling and light weight is everything, but otherwise I went back to waxed cotton a decade or so ago. I have a couple of different Barbours for when I'm on my feet and a Belstaff for when I'm on my motorbike, I spend a bit of time and care re-proofing them annually and they're (IMO, YMMV) an unbeatable combination of performance, longevity and style.
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Cost more than my car
Wait until you see the price of Gore-Tex! The Helki cost me £240 and I expect it to perform well for 20 years.
Thats for shure a real problem. Especially considering that you cannot wear it year round, because it's quite a warm jacket, the price is really steep. But I think my for my usecase it was worth it. Your mileage may vary
Kinda like oilskins
Gore-tex doesn't work without spraying it with repellent either, and also heat to "activate" the tech. it's completely stupid to think it's an everymans fabric, when it's only makes sense for professionals. gore-tex only works in certain conditions, and I can't see why ppl want them when everything else is better.
I understand that "gore-tex only works in certain conditions" so can you elaborate on those condistions? And what does that have to do with professionals or amateurs?
600$, huh
Water off a ducks back.
fifth
Any experience with how it works with a backpack? I mean, the water problem in the shoulder straps area, or the back contact places with the backpack etc., is it leaking a lot? Just looking for a new jacket, ideally without a membrane but highly hydrophobic; this looks very nice.
Rab with their Pertex and Nikwax coatings is another way to deal with the inclement weather issue. Here in the UK I’ve found a soft shell jacket treated with Nikwax wash in waterproofer will provide almost an hour of water resistance at a steady 2mm downpour rate. It’s about assessing your need as in most situations you wouldn’t spend that much time out in the open or have the opportunity to seek some shelter.
I’m relating these comments to probably the majority who are out hiking in average conditions throughout the year.
The jacket he is talking about, retails on the website for $450, must of just missed that point. You get what you pay for. A lot of people can’t afford that.
That sounds way off - I paid £240 for mine. Definitely not unusual for decent outdoor gear and especially reasonable value for something that lasts over 20 years.
It all depends on the temperature and humidity. Example in jungle conditions only ponchos work. In warm conditions a combination of a windshell and Polartech Alpha direct works very well. If hiking , rucking hard then using a mesh base layer, Polartech Alpha direct and windshell with a synthetic puffy, used like a belay. jacket, over everything when static works very well. Natick Labs etc has done a lot of research into this as well as Mark Twight, read the book Extreme Alpinism.
They don't tell you what's in their care products, and what their clothes are made of. A lot of claims (sustainability and performance) and patented names for things, but very little real information on their site. I like their products and ideas, but being so "secretive" doesn't look good. I hope they can be more transparent
They say it's biodegradable and it's a polymer. www.nikwax.com/en-us/how-nikwax-works/ I think the fabric is just polyester.
Paramo are good but run a bit too warm for most of the summer months and a fair bit of spring and autumn too. Definately good water management system, far preferable to membrane systems. My workhorse jacket is my Fjallraven Skogso with greenland wax. Its not really waterproof in anything beyond a shower but it is very quick drying, very breathable and when combined with the right layers it allows my to dry out very quickly. My layering sstem is based on the PCU system. I think its been pointed out that there is no prefect sytem for all conditions but, so far, for me, the Fjallraven with PCU layering is my preferred system as it offers the most flexibility ande utility in the widest range of conditions.
I have used various Paramo clothing for over 20 years and it really is effective. After 20 years + the coat is as effective as when it was new and the winter trousers are still the best I have come across for all day wear in wet winter weather. I also have some lightweight ‘ordinary’ trousers which are excellent for warm weather. The only drawback for the waterproof clothing is that it is in the main too warm for summer which is when I use single layer Gortex ( or similar). The advice with Paramo is to re proof it frequently but I have not found this to be necessary with just the occasional re proofing being sufficient. For winter I would also recommend Buffalo tops which although not waterproof ( it’s a Pertex type outer with a thick fleece inner). It is best worn without a base layer and keeps you dry but allows sweat to disperse even in torrential rain, provided you keep moving. A thin waterproof top to put on if you stop for any length of time is advisable.
I’ve had paramo fleeces shirts, trousers and coats for 30years. The first Fleece still going strong.
Worth noting that if you have a wet coat and put the other fleece over the top. It will pump the water out.
It all depends on how hard it is raining, how hard you are exerting yourself, and for how long. If you want to stay completely dry, get a rubber slicker the type used for offshore commercial fishing. Yes, you will sweat and get clammy inside, but you won't get soaked and fish slime and saltwater won't penetrate. Step up to Goretex offshore sailing gear, incredibly durable and keep you dry in a severe storm, but too heavy to hike in. The problem with raingear designed for hiking, biking or running is that the gear is going to be a compromise, and not entirely waterproof AND completely dry on the inside for too long. Not if you are exerting a lot of energy and doing so in the rain.
A rain jacket with membrane backing & fully taped seams should do the jobs of most situations.
I am selling proper rain jacket at Amazon and find people really like the cheap rain jackets. Those cheap rain jacket only have thin coating & without any seam taped outsell a lot than mine. They will be 100% leak even in light rains, but they could sell 10,000pcs per month!
Seems the customers don't care or they don't know ? How could the jacket protect you in the rain if no seam taped!
Many people consider DWR as waterproof, and don't know DWR will be faded and washed off!
80mph on my motorcycle, would you trust nikwax over a conventional rain coat?
Definitely not heh
Hello Ben - how do you think this would do in the snow instead of the rain?
Does anyone know of any brands available in the US that use NikWax Analogy fabric?
If Nikwax is the secret sauce, can I just get a can of that, spray it on any old rain shell and get the same result?
The inner layer material is actually the bit that does the work. It's called the 'pump liner'. It's construction does something clever when the fibres become hydrophobic.It's not just a case of making the outer face fabric resist the water (which is what dwr does on goretex coats and isn't enough to make the coat water proof).
I've used nikwax today put a DWR finish on a Berghaus Fleece. Pretty damn effective in light rain.
Good review I'm thinking now it's meant to work a system. Probably why so many are getting mixed results. I've just bought a Paramo Pajaro but am now going to look at buying a base layer from them as well. Probably why mountaineers do so well they get a kit bundle from Paramo. I'm thinking the hydrophobic effect to work properly requires the appropriate skin underneath otherwise if you block the bi-directional process there's no point it'll be as if the jacket isn't doing anything.
Finally! A person being honest about hiking rain jackets! I have spent a small fortune on hiking rain jackets and none of them keep me dry! I thought I was going mad!
Very well said. BUT: Nikwax proofing is not the industry standard unfortunately. It has better competitors.... Second, you can wax a sweater with Nikwax or any other product and stand in the water sprinkler. The water pressure is minimal and water will roll off. Nice that Nikwax actually made a jacket. I would however ask them what type of proofing they use on their jacket? Because if you use Nikwax either you overdo it and will have big splotches of wax or it will not perform. If you iron it and the wax is soaked in, the only time you will notice the wax is when you move. It will come out at the cracks in the fabric. Otherwise if you use so little that it does not show up, it will not keep rain out for long. The raindrop on your shoulder will just seep in. So what a polar sweater does is that its fabric is fuzzy and keeps water literally outside on the threads. Heat and air is inside. Water dries. The new jacket has a very smooth surface. Water sits there, no air, no heat. Water seeps in.
Paramo. Yea! 3 coats, 2 pair of trousers, 15 years plus and as good as new. Well apart from a few barbed wire injuries. However that damage makes no difference to performance.
Pretty cool!
Dry T-shirt, wet pants…
£270 for a coat?!
The only way is to use a soft fabric thats bendable. Then get the roof tile method of lots of fabric panels sewn on .
This obviously will work best standing upright.
But at least its breathable when working or hiking.YET
if you are at rest the tilies will rest downwards and shed the water
Edit.
I forgot to mention a waxing or lanolin wipe on occasionally when dry.like preening
Sounds like a good theory. Do such jackets exist?
so we have a promising new waterproof approach, based on a wash-in Nikwax product . I like it . I wonder - for those who know - if Nikwax’s stuff is good for the environment (I’m hoping it is) (- I mean, does it have any of those ‘forever chemicals’ or anything else that concerns us?)
Yeah it's PFC-free and biodegradable!
With the thin goretex coat, I remember you mentioning how bad of an idea a backpack would be. I assume these have no problem with that?
In terms of durability these will be fine, but there is the potential for water to squeezed through under the straps. How much of an issue that is I'm not really sure as I don't do much backpacking!
Does this mean you can't wear them while wearing a backpack/gear? I.e. it will wet out at points of contact?
I think that is a common complaint - but a lot of their coats have reinforced shoulders to resist this as much as possible.
I have a heavy duty poncho/cape, which i can open up for airing out, and it has vent holes. I can hike in all-day rain for weeks.
Yeah I reckon that is a good approach for ongoing situations like that!
I once read a comment/reply posted on a forum: "The best raincoat you can buy is an umbrella"😂.
To that end, my sketch book got a couple pages dedicated to toying with a coat that aired like an umbrella.
Coats hang by gravity on shoulders and back unless you are a sailor on a trapeze. How bout a suitable material ( 3d airated foam?/ 3d plastic wire lattice?) around shoulders, upper back and hood to create an air gap, then maybe a battery fan to push moist air out of poncho style vents?
@@davemitas umbrellas are good for non windy conditions and to protect from sun, but no good in windy downpours.
@RC Yep. 100% agree on umbrella, hence the idea of air gap coat. Of course I'm just focusing on the moist warm air egress, the waterproofness from rain is its own issue.
Rate of excersion is also key.
Here's my current modus operandi:
I've given up skiing in anything other than bluebird sunshine and whilst I still wear water proof pants in the morning for sitting on the potentially icy chairlift, by lunch I ski in cheap hoody and slick outer track pants so if I do fall(virtually never), snow doesn't stick, therefore stays dry. This combo doesn't stop me sweating, but within minutes I'm feeling totally dry for my next run!
Are there any animal products in the nikwax coating?
Not that I've ever heard of.
@@BenVallack I can check for myself I guess
great channel!
Thank you!
"That means, the air inside the coat can never be dryer than the air outside the coat" is utter bs since it completely neglects the temperature differential.
since your body always produces heat, this heat can be used to dry the air within the coat even in high humidity conditions outside the coat, as long as there is a temperature differential. This is famously put into effect in ecwcs gen 3 suits but known by anybody in rainy countries such as UK or Ireland who heats up their home in order to drive off humidity that could cause mold.
To dry out the inside the vapour needs to leave the coat. You're correct in that a temperature difference will make the moisture want to leave the membrane - but the problem is if the air is 100% RH on the cooler air outside - it will turn to liquid as it tries to leave when it hits the cooler membrane. Some might still escape and turn to condensation on the outside of course so this is a simplified argument - but as far as I can see if the temperature is equal then you won't get any transfer (no vapour pressure gradient) but if the temperature is different you will get the vapour pressure gradient but then you get condensation! The situation I'm talking about is only when it's actually raining and the outside air is at 100% RH. If the air is dryer then it can accept the leaving vapour without it condensing.
Heating your house prevents condensation on walls, it doesn't make the air any 'dryer'. It technically reduces the relative humidity due hotter air being able to hold more moisture in the air - but that same moisture is still in the air. Warmer walls means less condensation and warmer air means a higher dew point. That's why you get less mould when warming the house - if I understand it all correctly! To remove moisture from the air, those vapour molecules have to go somewhere.
@@BenVallack It's a great argument, i have to admit. And i suppose it would largely depend on your defenition of "dryer". Since hot air with the same amount of vapour would still have a lower saturation than cold air, i.e. feel dryer and be able to absorb more additional humidity from sweat a.s.o.
@@BenVallack Yes, if the saturation is at 100% outside and if this is accompanied by a temperature differential the vapour from inside will tend to condensate outside. But since the vapour needs to cool down first this will not necessarily be immediate.
Also whether the vapour has to be driven off through a membrane or just pushed out with movement and replaced with less humid air that then heats up is depending on the structure of the clothing or isolation.
I tend to prefer "fluffier" and more open clothing such as a fleece for that matter since it allows for good air flow. Although windy conditions would make a combination with a less breathable and more air tight fabric necessary.
In windy conditions in turn there is almost never a 100% saturation and the vapour would be dispersed before it gets to condensate.
I suppose since we are looking for dry feeling rather than saturation levels the best clothing is a function of temperature gradient as well as breathability. Gor Tex is bad at both and only marketing. Ecwcs and similar systems work best for me but i think paramo fits in there somewhere.
@@BenVallack Anyway, great brain tease for this time of day. Was fun negotiating that. Thanks for this.