CONFIRMATION FROM NEURAL DSP: 1 Vp = 0.707 VRMS = -0.79 dBu equals -13 dBFS in the digital domain This means, for accurate gain levels for NDSP plugins, if you have a UAD apollo, set your instrument input gain to 0 and you are perfectly set with plugin gain at 0.
So this means, I set my input gain at the lowest value (0) on my UAD Volt 1 (knob turned counter-clockwise all the way), then when I'm running a Neural DSP plugin, I set my input gain on the plugin to 0 as well right?
Same although I am still confused by what “set your input gain to zero” actually means. Do I turn the physical gain knob all the way counterclockwise on my Steinberg UR44C? That doesn’t sound right! 😂 I feel like an idiot after watching this video…
, for me it was the opposite. I also saw John Cordy's video amd was directed here. I use amplitube, Sgear, and Neural DSP Toneking. I always set my audio interface that it doesn't clip but it always sounded that something was off but couldn't explained it. There was always too much gain. Normally you don't boost your front end of your tube amp to hear its actual tone. You plug your guitar in the input and you play. An amp sim works the same. You don't have to boost it with your interface. It has gain enough with the input gain at zero. Adjust the input gain on your amp sim according to the specs of your interface. Finally Neural DSP gave us some numbers so we can compensate. Now we can use the plugin how it's designed. No guessing involved. The Toneking now behaves as a real toneking for example. Think about it....
Yep - just turn the gain down to 0. Then you can use the headroom value in the spec sheet. When the preamp gain is at 0, it simply means the interface isn’t adding any extra gain to the signal. You’ll have a healthy signal to work with and you’ll know the amount of headroom so you can adjust accurately for any plugin
I have a Behringer UMC404HD. This is the specs in the manual: Mic: -4 dBu / Line: +20 dBu / Instrument: -3 dBu How should I navigate based on that info?
@@bardiel_89 it depends on whoever made the model, it will be different for each persons individual reamp chain. You have to match their reamp level to achieve unity gain
So, I don't get why I should set interface gain to 0 and then set plugins input gain +/- an x-value. Aren't the real preamps within the interface in general not better than the simulated preamp (input) of a plugin? Also, what happens if I have a preamp (pedal) connected to the interface? I guess, it's smarter to set interface gain to 0 and use the gain of the preamp, right? As a plugin I'd use then a poweramp + cab simulation .
there’s no real benefit to using a preamp over digital. You are adjusting for the reference level of the converters, so when your signal is hitting the plugin it will be accurate for ANY signal. This means you can use pedals or synths or whatever and it’ll react the same as plugging into a real amp
usually a good idea, but it’s important to know what the headroom is because it always varies depending on the manufacturer and model. It’s possible to measure the headroom yourself, you need a multimeter though. I have another video that walks through how to measure a DI input that would help. You can also compare the level to a known input headroom. You run a sine wave into both, and compare the difference in dBFS level in the DAW. If the 12dBu input gives a -8dBFS signal, and the unknown gives a -10dBFS signal, then you know the unknown has 2dB more headroom, and has 14dBu input headroom.
@@onlyzeus3587 you’d need either a multimeter or another interface to compare against. Do you have something else or one you can borrow? A multimeter only costs $15 or so, or there are plenty of suitable interfaces for under $100
@@ImpostorModanica you can measure the headroom of your input chain with a sine wave (I have a video on how to do that), but to know what level the specific plugin wants requires information that only the developer will know.
Was struggling to figure out the AXE I/O values, but the specs state "0 dBFS is obtained with a +14 dBu signal at the TS input" so I am using the same values as Avid MBOX Studio. Hope that helps someone! This has really made a difference with my NeuralDSP tones.
So random question here Ed... the Polychrome (McRocklin) plugin is calling for values above +12... but the plugins input gain only goes up to 12.0. How would someone navigate that?
This is game changing! Huge thanks Ed. The vast, vast majority of guitarists using plugins will plug into the Hi-Z input, give a boost to the signal by setting to 'Inst' level, then give a further boost by ramping up the gain pot till the interface meter shows just below 0dB reading when playing. If I'm reading correct, we should be setting the gain pot all the way down to close to 0? Up till now, I've been using an RME Fireface 802, plugging into the left most front combo mic/instrument jack (channel 9), setting 'Inst' in TotalMixFx, turning the Fireface gain knob up till the meter in TotalMixFx is just below 0 (gain setting around +35). I've never, ever been happy with any plugin clean sound and edge of breakup (Bias/S-Gear/ Tone King Imperial MkII/Tonex/ etc). I have no idea if the 'distorted' sounds are correct, lol. What is truly shocking is how the manufacturers have been doing this so differently...and NOT telling us !!!
Since you're being so active in the comments, I wanted to say thank you for your efforts. I'm sure that it's a lot of work, and it doesn't go unnoticed! Also, I have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and the MixWave Milkman plugin if you have any specific tips to help me get those sweet Fender Cleans!
I’m not sure for MixWave, nor played a Milkman. All the information I’ve had from Mixwave so far has been along the lines of “just below clipping” which is what we want to get away from….. I would start with focusrite gain at 0 and reference to some youtube demos of the amp. If you have to adjust the input level a lot, just be aware that it’s absolutely fine. Best bet is to ask them directly and perhaps show the videos that discuss this topic. It should be a very easy question for the developer to answer, but often the customer support won’t fully understand the question.
I use a UA Volt 2 and mostly play through the Milkman and Benson Mixwave plugins (and have some experience playing through real Benson amps as a point of reference, around the same time I bought the Mixwave version). I'll play around with the interface input gain setting more at some point, but in my experience Mixwave amp sims react similarly to NDSP and Scuffham's offerings. Ed's recommendations for those can be a good starting point.
How many youtube videos have you seen of plugins from these companies where the input level is at default settings? Are most people getting the most accurate experience of amp sim plugins?
Fantastic work, thank you! Half of UA-cam has now picked up on this and is now selling it as the big news. I was constantly asking myself what is all the fuss about NAM, it sounds horrible. Now that is the answer. However, another problem remains. With clean tones, e.g., Neural DSP Tone King, and the rest of the system set to "reasonable" volume levels, the sound is still not impressive. Only when I crank the overall volume of the system up do these clean sounds come out right and sound as they are intended to do. But if I forget to turn down when switching to UA-cam, it will be extremely loud. When I just use the output volume adjustment in the Neural DSP, it will still overdrive the sound. Is there another trick to make clean sounds nice at very low volumes?
Im a complete novice, so apologies. Firstly, thank you for such a great video. Just to clarify, i would set my input gain (the knob) all the way down then add the input on the plug in itself? I have a focusrite 3rd gen solo. Thank you again
set the gain to 0 (all the way down) and then use the table to find what level to set to (depends on the plugin/company who makes it). Which plugin are you using?
If enough people ask them, maybe they will realize they can release the information that every major amp sim company has released by now. I love their Benson Chimera plugin, but man, their customer service is really useless when it comes to answering basic questions that the manual doesn't cover.
for the first time, amp sims FEEL good to play for me now. The sound has been there for quite some time at this point, but this really improved the feel of basically every single guitar plugin I have. Thank you !
Hi. Great straight to the point and very easy to understand video! But I have a question: I have a PreSonus Studio 68 and according to their specs the "instrument input maximum level is +15 dBu (unbalanced, min gain)". The input gain control knob gauge on the interface goes from -15 to +65 dB. In the manual it says: "These knobs provide 80 dB of variable gain (-15 to +65 dB) on the microphone and instrument inputs." Does that mean I should set the knob to 0 dB or to the minimum value it can go to (i.e .-15 dB)?
I think at minimum gain it may be subtracting 15dB of gain, but I don't have a Presonus interface so I can't check. My advice would be to try and measure with a sine wave and multimeter if something seems off. Based on the number of comments from Presonus users, I suspect "0" isnt at minimum settings (minimum is probably more like a -15dB pad)
I have an Audient EVO 4, how can I tell if the input level on my interface is at zero? There's only sliders... there's no numbers. Any tips there? Even in the desktop software there are no numbers.
Thanks im gonna try this and hopfully reduces the noise on some plugins. And I can finally stop adjusting the input on the interface for different pickups and I can also play around with pickup height like with the real thing.
What about amplitube5? I used guitar rig a long time a go and i could get some very nice tones out of that one, but now i use focusrite scarlett 18i8 + amplitube 5, and i seem to have a hard time dialing in that nice guitar tone, that's warm and clear, and on the edge of breakup.
IK won’t provide any information, and from trying to work it out myself, they definitely aren’t using one consistent level for all models. Some seem to be -6dBu or lower, some -3dBu, some 0dBu, some 12dBu
Hello Ed S - I was wondering if you could please please let me know what should the input volume be when using the Audient iD22 along with positive bias FX2 and amplitube 5... thank you so much
Thanks for this! It all makes perfect sense now. For your records or anyone still rocking much older hardware (like myself), I did some sleuthing and the Max Input Level for the Line 6 Pod X3 Series is 5Vpp. Which translates to 7.17dBu. So that value should be good for the Pod X3 (bean), Pod X3 Live (floor unit) and the Pod X3 Pro (rackmount) interfaces. Since moving over to almost exclusively computer based amp sims about a year ago, I found my signal noticeably hot when following the old suggested “max your input to just below clipping” method. Where cleaning up clean tones on most amps especially more gainy ones was total a pain in the butt. I eventually settled on a ballpark of about -6dB off my DAW’s peak input (before clipping) to give me about the right headroom for a more realistic amp response in my specific setup. Which looking at your math and technique and the 7.17dB value for my Line 6 Pod X3, isn’t too far off and my intuition that my gained preamp levels were acting more like a boost pedal, which now makes perfect sense. I’m so glad someone finally put the thought and legwork into getting the math, logic, and responses from the industry dialed in for all of us looking for more faithful tones between setups, interfaces, and simulators. Thank you!
@@АлександрКиселёв-п2д anything at all. The pickups essentially don’t matter, it’s removing the variable of the audio interface. When calibrated, you can plug any pickup or synth or microphone etc in and it would be like plugging that directly into the real amp.
I would also like to add that profilers such as NAM rely on end users to make the profiles. This is another place where the proper gain for emulation can be troublesome as a target. Thank you for the content :)
Yep absolutely. I have a few videos on how to measure and calibrate reamp chains so this information can be provided with NAM/ToneX/AIDA-X/GuitarML etc models
The problem i have the the presonus 24c is that i don't know where 0 is. The pot goes from -15 on the left to 65 on the right, and no indication of where 0 actually is between those 2. Anyone got any ideas? Not sure if i'm just being an idiot. Can't find anything in the manual.
Hi Ed, thanks for all the work you did to clear this up for SO many people. Question though: the specs for my interface (Behringer UMC404HD) say Mic: -4 dBu / Line: +20 dBu / Instrument: -3 dBu. Am I right in assuming that that means the dBu at minimum gain would be 17 dBu on the instrument setting? It would seem odd to increase the gain by 15.2 dB in NDSP plugins! :P
@@eldertmohr1366 -3dBu is correct, it’s very low headroom unless you use the pad (which I believe is 20dB so you end up with 17dBu). Without the pad at -3dBu, your signal would actually be 15.2dB too loud for NDSP, so you’d have to reduce by that amount. If it’s clipping, use the pad and boost 5.2dB
Update from Mike Scuffham (TLDR 12dBu, but try up to 9dBu as well if you want a bit more gain): Hello again Ed, I’ve just caught up with what you’ve been doing and now understand what you are looking for and why. With S-Gear, nominally the headroom is approx 12dBu. With my RME interfaces, I’ll often add another 3dB boost (sometimes using a Lehle Sunday Driver into my audio interface), which I think gives very good results. So, you could say between 9 and 12 dBu nominal, but I encourage experimentation because often the amps have different sweet spots when you hit them harder/softer with different guitars/pickups. With a focusrite Scarlett audio interface, you can set the input gain knob to zero, or just above to give some extra body to the sound. To my ears, it sounds better to boost on the focusrite rather than in the box. This could be some characteristic of the focusrite. Cheers, Mike
Hi! maybe I´m doing something wrog.. with S-gear and my Presonus 1810 (15dbu max, input level) if I put gain knob to zero and add about 3db on plugin, it sounds almost clean, with amp gain crancked. The same with NDSP. With Petrucci model, 3er amp sim (a gain beast) with this method, knob at zero and 5.5db on plugin (as chart says) with the gain amp crancked sounds like edge breakup log gain amp... not to mention piezo sim... it doesn´t sound anymore. I only think it sounds better with the interface gain between -18 or -12db. Have I miss something?
@@mastersystem80 it could be something to do with how presonus mark their levels on their interfaces, a few people have mentioned this. With Presonus it may be best to measure with a sine wave or to compare against an interface with a known headroom amount
I have the same problem with Behringer UMC22 and S-Gear. Either the max input in the specifications is off (+2dbU seems suspicious), or the S-Gear specifications are. In S-gear, if I cut -10db before the plugin and 0 gain on the interface, I really have to push the signal hard after the plugin, crunch sounds max, and have terrible signal to noise ratio.
The truth is that it works excellent, years of using everything wrong and suddenly everything makes sense, the truth is, thank you very much for giving us this possibility of understanding how this works and taking advantage of everything in a better way. Ed S is GOD!!
UPDATE: I think my values for Softube at 1V=0dBFS are about 3dB too high. I’ll put a link to an updated table in the description. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZHaapCiCg4RLIFqTS5KyUUVa4MwaqfxRCYk35Bvdrs/edit?usp=sharing
if you run a test oscillator before softube Marshall and you check the input meter inside the plugin you see that the reference level is -17dbfs. With single coils if I use the SSL 2 and and a trim before softube, I need to boost 12db to peak at -17dbfs. There is also a 'headroom' level inside the Marshall plugin but the use is not clear and it's something they added recently I guess because its use is not described inside the manual :/
@@valimaki Thanks! I’m trying to find this information for Amplitube but it seems as though they use various levels depending on the model. I have found that many of the models need AT LEAST 20dB boost (if you are using 12dBu). I’d try using the slash boost at +20dB and then boost 1-3dB more on the input slider. When I get a suitable response from IK, i’ll include here and i’ll try and do a video too.
Yes, this is so it matches the known specs of your interface. Lowest gain=highest headroom they can list. If you increase the gain, it either has to be by a known specific amount, or you can measure the headroom using a sine wave (with a known voltage). That way requires a multimeter, I have videos on how to do that.
If you want to update the spreadsheet I can add Max input level for: Apogee Jam+ = 18 dBu Focusrite Clarett series = 14 dBu Focusrite Clarett+ series = 15dBu
This is game changing information. It should be general knowledge and put in all manuals from here on in. Do you know the plug in alliance calibration numbers? You’ve covered all my other sims in your chart. Thanks for doing this.
@@eds4754cheers mate. I really appreciate what you’ve done here. My bass sims actually sound good now too. I can’t believe this has been overlooked for so long. I’ve always wondered about this but wasn’t knowledgeable enough to figure it out. Thanks again.
That's fantastic work! I have a Steinberg UR22 mkII, the specs say that the maximum input level is 8.5 dBV (equivalent to 10.7 dBu). I measured my unit---following your advice from another of your videos---to be 10.8 dBu. Maybe you can consider adding it to the spreadsheet :) In any case, thank you so so much! Finally my plugins sound decent
hi! im using the UR22mkII too. The values you mentioned here are, for de HI-Z second imput, true? I have one problem when recordin guitar with Hi-Z imput, because my DAW (studio one) tell me that the signal is clipping, when i stroke the strings masively. Do you have the same problem? Can you tell me if im doing something wrong? Thanks!
This is too shock! a lot people don't know about it including professionals, huge thanks to this video and information! that explained why DSP pedals doesn't need a gain knob too.
It's not just that - specifically a ton of plugins and interfaces explicitly said to turn the gain up as far as you can without clipping. Amp modelling software like TH-U even has a thing on its input level selector that tells you strum and turn it louder. So it's not something people don't know so much as something that a significant proportion of the industry has been telling people to do the wrong thing
@@michael1 Absolutely right! Can you get the guitar sound good through plugins? No matter where I set the gain knob on my interface, let it be on zero or slightly up, I always get very very dark, muddy, bottom heavy DI which just doesn't sounds good when I play guitar through any amp sims. Tried almost every amp sim, but they just don't sound OK. Infact very bad, muddy and mushy. I am sure I insert the guitar cable into High-Z input. Tried various gain knob settings including zero.
I can't find out either in the manual or on the internet, nor do I have the multimeter or the reamp box to measure the maximum input volume of my Roland duo capture ex. Please, if anyone has the information on the maximum input volume of the Roland duo capture ex I would be very grateful if you could give me that information. In the manual it indicates that the headroom has 14 dB, in case that helps. Thank you very much for this video Ed S, the information for the entire community is invaluable and a real bombshell.
I’m sure you’re getting heavy traffic thanks to Rhett and Cordy but I noticed your list doesn’t have Amplitube 5 and BiasFX. Any information would be appreciated… also, now that the TMP is out will there be info on that? Both Jason and Max from Fender are very active with the people in the FB group and would have answers for any questions you might have
Speaking to Positive Grid atm so hopefully have some guidance soon. No word on Amplitube, IK have been unable to provide any specific values despite trying for months
@@eds4754 Excellent. Came looking for Positive Grid BIAS FX 2. So glad I actually watched Rhett's video despite the title burying the lede about gain staging. I've been plagued by noise from my PC and this taught me that all I needed to do was turn the input knob of my Scarlet 2i2 3rd gen down to 0 and back down the gain in NI Guitar Rig Pro 6 and with the gate almost off I just need to move a few feet away from my PC and turn 90 degrees and Robert's your parent's sibling.
It's amazing, the sheer incompetence at IK Multimedia, or their lack of actually caring for the players struggling with their plugin. How else can they not answer this in MONTHS?
This is awesome info! It's a relief to know there's a right way to do this. My interface (M-Audio Firewire 1814 - yeah it's like 20 years old) is listed at -3.8 dBu at the input, so even at 0 my guitars clip at the input. But it has a -20dB pad button which I usually use. If using the pad, is the math as simple as adding 20 (from the pad) to the -3.8 dBu for the MIL to get a value of 16.2 dBu?
that’s exactly correct! If you find it a bit noisy, and you have the means to accurately adjust the gain, you can always increase to something like 12-13dBu. You’d basically run a sine wave into the input and measure with a dBFS meter in the DAW. Just turn the gain up until the level is 4dB higher than where it starts. The other thing to check is the impedance - I think the input impedance of the instrument inputs is only 500k Ω, and really 1M Ω would be better for guitars. If you ever upgrade you’ll know which specs to pay attention to :)
I have gone to school for this stuff and thus, I'd like to extend a word of caution: the reason why you want to dial in the input gain of your interface is to get an optimal signal to noise ratio (SNR). Basically, an audio interface (just like any other piece of audio processing equipment with analog circuitry) has a noise floor. That is the lower boundary of its dynamic range. The upper boundary is defined by when it starts clipping. So when we adjust the input gain, we adjust our signal level so it's as far away from the noise floor as can be while not hitting the ceiling (clipping). Fully analog gear has a high noise floor while the clipping (saturation) is considered pleasing by many. This is why with analog gear, we raise the signal to just shy of clipping - if it clips occasionally it's not too bad, but if it's closer to the noise floor than it needs to be, it is bad. But digital gear is different: it has a far lower noise floor, but we don't want it to clip. Ever. Thus, we keep a safe distance or -12 to -18 dB so we have enough headroom. That is proper gain setting on a digital system. If you have properly set your interface's input gain so your signal is at -18dB and it's still too much for your plugin to have proper headroom, don't adjust the input gain. Use a trim plugin instead. Trim is a digital control, i.e. it doesn't involve any noisy analog circuitry, unlike the mic preamp in an interface. So when we lower the trim, it can lower the noise floor. Thus, by inserting a trim plugin instead of lowering the interface's input gain, you are preserving your good SNR. If you lower the volume using the input gain, you will have a worse SNR and all that any plugin coming after it in the signal chain can do is amplify all parts of the signal, including the noise, so you end up with a noisier signal.
In theory you are correct, but you're missing a very important point here - guitar pickups have SIGNIFICANTLY more noise than an audio interface. If you are recording a source that has an extremely low noisefloor (like another converter), then you would want to optimise the SNR to avoid having excess noise. When recording something like guitar pickups, your noise floor is constrained by the noise floor of the source you are recording. If you record a hotter signal, the noise of the pickups gets turned up too and the signal to noise ratio doesnt improve. Check my recent videos as I've demonstrated this with audio and gain compensated files. The other thing to remember, is a guitar recorded at 12-16dBu of headroom or so is already quite close to clipping and is a perfectly loud signal that is far from the noise floor. Recording lower than 12dBu is sure to clip when using humbuckers. Going as far as 20dBu won't make much difference at all, besides being quieter. The noise floor of converers is MILES below the noise of the pickups so a few dB here or there will make no audible difference. Its better to have an accurate idea of how much headroom you have and then you can have a more realistic gain response from plugins, than worrying about trying to improve the SNR by a couple of dB (that you cant notice because it gets covered by the noise of the pickups).
Brainworx amp sims (at least the majority) provide a level trimming in the amp sim itself. I level my guitar interface (e.g. dbx 386) so that I reach about -6db in the daw and then adjust to about -20db (adding -14 in this case) in the amp sim. Works fine for me.
@@benjaminheyer6980I don’t think it’s just Brainworx. I’m not at my computer RN, but I think all of my amp sims either have a trim built in, or can be trimmed in the DAW beforehand. This video is interesting but I see a lot of people miss the comment in the video that says this is a starting point. What sounds good, is good. So if having a (virtual) super hot guitar output into a (virtual) amp or the inverse sounds good, then you have your sound. These days with 24 bit interfaces it’s almost hard to lose a signal, especially an inherently noisy guitar output, in the noise floor of the system. So the only thing you really, desperately, at any cost, have to avoid is overdriving the AD circuitry. Unless that’s what you’re going for, but in 99.999% of circumstances, it won’t be. This video shows how to get a great baseline, what the programmers intended. But this is audio, music. Start with the rules then break them to see if it sounds better.
@@julianmorrisco I Can't agree more on the "rule breaking" :-) But I remember times when I didn't understand why I wasn't able to get a nice clean sound out of an amp sim. I don't understand why the manufacturers didn't adress this issue in the first place and why the "problem" wasn't advertised e.g. "if you want the amp sim to sound the closest to the original possible drive it with minus 20db" or the like, Instead they let us figure it out and it is not even the same with all amp sims. I think amplitube has a button for automatic levelling ... P.S.: I double checked. e.g. There are no examples or reccomendations for the input levelling with my favorite amp sim to be found in the manual ...
boost in the plugin, or with a gain plugin before it. If you boost on your interface you’ll be close to clipping, it’s better to record with some headroom. Once the signal is recorded you don’t have to worry about clipping inside the plugin, they have basically infinite headroom (just don’t clip your D/A coming out)
Softube told me 12dBu for Amproom, but the Marshall models are quite clearly undergained at that level and sound correct at 1V=0dBFS. So maybe double check what sounds best if you are using amps other than Marshall.
@@eds4754 thanks 👍! Just few seconds ago I've eyeballed my gain knob position to interface Gain Range of 55db and found that my current 9 o'clock knob position is roughly corresponding to +11db 😅 But definitely will follow your advice. (I have Vintage and Marshall suits)
ha our ears can be surprisingly accurate! always handy to have some kind of fixed reference point that’s easy to get back to, and is consistent for all guitars and amp models though!
@@SugarTouchthe peak level of your guitar isn’t important, guitar levels always vary depending on the guitar and what you are playing. 12.2dBu describes the headroom of the input, not the peak level of the guitar. Quieter guitars will record lower, louder guitars will be louder. It’s all good and as it should be.
@eds4754 Thank you for all your work on this. I'm sorry if others have been able to figure this out, but I find myself losing the handle. I'm using Amplitube 5 (I know they're not forthcoming with numbers) and iRig Pro Duo (max output 16dbu). In your other videos you say that AT5 is undergained and put the input slider at max (or add a boost pedal adding +17) to get decent sounds. But here you appear to be saying to set the gain on the physical interface to zero and then adding anywhere from 0 to 10 (from your responses to other comments here) on the input slider. I'm probably misunderstanding something but it sounds like two different pieces of advice. Other questions: What volume is your guitar at when you test? Full? Where you normally play? People keep calling it a plugin which makes me think maybe this advice isn't for using AT5 as standalone? Should I be using something like Studio One (which I use for recording) with AT5 as a plugin and incorporate Studio One's gain somehow? I'd be grateful for any insights, but either way thanks again for your work!
@@Phaedrus68 with an interface at 0 the amount of level you have to add will be different for everyone, as all interfaces are different. Similarly the amount of gain you have to add is different for each model. So the amount of level that needs to be added varies a lot. The guitar can be any volume - the goal is that it no matter how it’s set the model would respond as the real amp would.
Thanks Ed! I record via Rupert Neve DI into a mic input of an Apollo 8. When I compare it to the Hi-Z input, it's a little hotter. Do you happen to have the Input level to set Neural DSP plugins to for that DI?
@@pierregermain6381 Run a sine wave into the Neve input and see how much hotter it is than the UAD. The subtract whatever the difference is from 12.2dBu
No worries, glad it helped! Its really amazing how it can bring some of these to life and makes them very true to the originals. So many amp sims can be quite undergained for a lot of people without some adjustment
hi ed, I asked kazrog what the entry level of ampcraft 1992 was and he told me the following: "The plugin was calibrated using DI track files that averaged - 23 dB RMS unprocessed, but there is enough headroom on tap that anything within +/- 3dB of that target should be fine for just about any purpose." what is it supposed to mean?
@@Andersrain It’s a kind of BS answer, it needs to be stated with reference to a constant analog voltage (either volts or dBu) and a dBFS level that the analog level corresponds to
@@eds4754 ye but speaking of questions... may I have one too😂😂 I use Focusrite scarlett solo 2nd gen max lvl input 13dbu with Neural DSP plugins, mostly Abasi and Tim Henson, when I use this method I get very quiet tone and notes die very quickly even if I dont have any noise gate, that is for distortion tones, Cleans I cant even hear properly. My setup is just guitar→cable→focusrite→monitors. If you can give me at least some hints I will be very thankful
@@martingaspar8364 is instrument input selected? are you using the right cable? If you have any doubts, the best way is to make a sine wave of a known voltage and check what level if comes through as. To Troubleshoot you kind of have to go through and find what could be throwing it off as it could be a number of things that are hard to diagnose remotely
@@eds4754 yes inst input is always selected, my cable is not the best tbh and Im getting a new, better one tomorrow. about that sine wave, bro I have no idea what youre talking about, but thank you anyway, maybe I will figure it out somehow
Alright, say you had a whole bunch of guitars recorded straight into the interface (iD4) just before the clipping point, what would be the best way to decrease their DI gain to match the interface being at 0 ? Lowering the input of the plugin or using a gain plugin ? Or would either work the same ? Thank you, I've been experimenting with this all day.
Hi, what if I chained 1 drive pedal into the interface? For example any boss drive pedal like BD-2, OD-3, then how to plus/minus the input volume from the plugin based on my interface? Thanks in advance!
so I have a behringer umc202hd, states the instrument level input has a maximum input gain of -3 dBu on the instrument input, and then with the pad engaged that knocks off 20 db, so should I then be increasing my input in the neural dsp plugin to 4.8? I just tried it in archetype petrucci and it sounds good this way, but I just want to be sure i'm understanding correctly.
I've been trying to get usable tones from amp sims since many many years and don't know what's wrong. They always sound very very weird. Very very boomy in bottom end and very very thin in high end. It just doesn't sounds and feels like it should. I've watched several youtube videos and pretty much everyone gets awesome tones even on default settings. But it just sounds like something is not right at my place. I've tried different interfaces like RME Babyface Pro FS and also the focusrite. I get same results on both. And yes, I connect guitar to the High Z input. Yet it sounds very very muddy and mushy, no matter which amp sim plugin. Tried all, from Neural DSP, ML sound, STL, Th-U, Amplitube. Nothing works at all. All sound muddy and mushy. If I import my friend's DI guitar track file into my DAW (Reaper) and apply the same plugins on his DI, then it sounds awesome. But only when I plug in my guitar (many different guitars), then it sounds horrible. Just not usable. Not sure how to explain sound to someone over text comment. But if you know what I'm talking about, then please let me know what's wrong.
@@ratedrsuperstarthega If your levels are correct, I’d make sure you are using the instrument input and not the line input, and then check your cable, guitar wiring etc. With the gear you have, nothing should stop you getting excellent tones
A small question, since I use a very old sound card, what input level would be optimal for the neural dsp? In the Daw it appears around -14db -17db, would this be an optimal level?
@@devouringfamine2427 the whole point of this video is that you cannot determine the correct level from the peaks of your guitar, because they always vary. Check the specs of your specific interface and use the table in the link to work out what levels to use
Hola, amigo, te saludo desde la otra parte del mundo. He visto detalladamente muchos de tus vídeos (con el reto de traducir todo, ya que no está activado la opción de subtítulos). Como comentas, la estructura de ganancia de los plugins no ha sido tomada con un interés alturado, mas, me encuentro con una cuestión que tal vez pueda ayudarnos (aunque cabe la posibilidad de equivocarme, aunque no lo creo). Revisando la lista que hiciste, tomaste en cuenta la interfaz AXE I/O - ONE, y escribes que esta interfaz, con la ganancia en mínimo, te arroja un valor de 10.5 dB, pero, revisando sus especificaciones técnicas, lo que menciona es que, estando con la perilla de ganancia al mínimo, SE NECECITAN 10.5 dB PARA LLEGAR AL LÍMITE SIN CLIPEAR (0 dBFS), entonces, esta interpretación, la de que en la perilla al mínimo te arroja 10.5 dB al mínimo, podría ser errónea, ya que, por lo menos hasta donde pude investigar, IK MULTIMEDIA (creadores de la interfaz), NO ha especificado explícitamente la cuantización de la ganancia de sus entradas TS. Bueno, para concluir, escribo todo esto porque, al igual que tú, me hice la misma cuestión acerca del por qué suena relativamente mal las emulaciones de guitarra/bajo, en mi caso, cuando utilizo mi programa de plugins (AMPLITUBE 5), con mi interfaz AXE I/O (con la misma peculiaridad en torno al control de ganancia que la AXE I/O - ONE). Me alegro mucho de haber encontrado tu canal y tus vídeos en la búsqueda de este conocimiento considerablemente desconocido. Muchas gracias por compartir conocimiento y muchos saludos, amigo. Atte. Un nuevo suscriptor. P.D.: Los links con la información técnica de las interfaces www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeioone/index.php?p=specs (AXE I/O - ONE) www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeio/index.php?p=specs (AXE I/O) Buscar en el apartado de especificaciones (Instrument Input).
Hi there. Yes, those are the correct values to use for Axe I/O and Axe I/O one. Unfortunately they don’t have any relation to the required levels needed in Amplitube - IK uses a range of specs for all its interfaces, presumably with the assumption to people would adjust their preamp gain anyway. It’s frustrating they won’t offer any accurate help but maybe with AT6 they’ll handle this better.
when it is set to +10dB, the headroom is 12.2dBu. 10dB is the gain of the preamp, 12.2dBu is the headroom of the converter (with that 10dB applied to the signal). Hope that makes sense
@@inlandbott “best” is subjective and down to the individual. Hearing the amp as it was intended is part of the design and modelling process. Usually the amp designers know what they’re doing and hearing it as they intended is the best starting point to get a good tone dialled in. From there you can make an informed decision on whether to adjust input levels more, or to adjust amp settings or use a pedal. Guessing is not a good or fast way to land on great results. But whatever gets the job done is best. Knowledge never hurts anyone.
I use a bit of an old interface, M-Audio's Fast Track, it shows that the input is 12dBv min. gain. I found an online calculator that converted this to 14.2dBu. I don't understand much about these calculations, but I came up with the value of +1.78 for NeuralDSP and +2.46 for Helix Native, it doesn't look right. Are there any cake recipes for dummies? 😂
@@eds4754 By the way, I think about using a buffer before the interface (specifically the Boss ML-2 pedal in bypass that has the buffer active), I saw that it helps to fix Hi-Z problems, and those things that I don't understand much. How should I deal with this? I know it has a nominal input of -20dBu, input impedance of 1 M ohn, the values are the same for output. That would interfere with the calculation, wouldn't it?
@@Morailson no, it wouldn’t interfere here - you are calibrating for the conversion ratio of the converter (how it represents dBu as dBFS). Using the buffer before the interface would be like using the buffer before the real amp, it might affect the tone very slightly but the level should be correct. Typical 9V buffers have about 3V headroom which is usually 12dBu so your peaks may clip slightly depending on what pickups you use and how loud you play. It’s not an issue at all though, it’s just in a DAW you can see it, whereas with a real amp you wouldn’t.
I checked the table and although it sounds logical for most am sims, for Guitar Rig it soynds like nonsense. For my RME on 0 and -5.5 input gain in a plugin it's gonna be a silence clean sound or slightly crunched tone for every amp. It can't be right.
@@vayzeria I have a video about Amplitube, it essentially needs a different value for each amp and IK won’t provide any info so you have to guess for each one
@@eds4754 thanks for the reply. Think i have s Downton that works for me. The maximum input for a high Z instrument is about 13 dBu. So i figure, if my guitar signal is about half way on the soundcard. That should mean i push about 6 Dbu. So that means i should lower my gain signal in my daw with the same number.. -6 db (on the actuall channel i have my amp sim) From the i can use a eq or any plugin with a gain knob the tweak the setting for each amp. So what I've read on several channels in to crank the gain channel to the maximum input of my soundcard +13 dBu. Wich only adds nothing but distortion/running to hot! Hope understand what I'm trying to say 😉 I needed to find the balance and i feel/hear that it sound better 👌
I found your original Reddit post, and man you took a lot of ill informed shit. there's zero issue with people not understanding complex stuff, but with people thinking they know everything and being pricks about it, sigh. for anyone who doesn't get this - yes you can just mess with your input gain on the interface, or digitally, until you like the sound. nothing wrong with that. but amps are very finely tuned non-linear processors, the sweet spots are completely tuned to sound best at known input voltage levels. if you don't hit those amps with a real-world representation of a guitar output, it won't sound or respond its best. for creative use or dial-in by ear, sure, it doesn't matter. but if you want a sim amp to actually sound and respond like the real thing, for whatever reason (also just to see what it was actually designed and tuned to do), then you want to hit it with the same level you would in the analog world. op, thanks for persisting through the ignorance storm. now I have to research my own setup.
Ha thanks. When I made that post, I was mostly curious to what % of people on there would understand the concept, I didn’t expect everyone to get it but it was quite funny how universally slated it was. Well described there, exactly how I see it. I think some audio engineers can put their guard up a little when things like dBu, voltage, dBFS, multimeters etc are mentioned
Hey, thanks for theese precious informations! I’ve a question tho, I’m using Positive Grid Bias FX2 combined with a Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 3rd gen, what value of input gain should i set in Bias? Thanks!! Matteo
Like many others I found this through another channel, and this answers so many questions I've had about the Neural stuff and plugins in general. Like it always bothered me that going DI we have this extra "degree of freedom" if you will, in interface gain level. Gonna be using this as a baseline going forward!
ToneX, there is no set value - it depends on the level of the reamp chain of whoever made the model. No idea for Positive Grid, I’ve emailed them though. With Amplitube/IK in general, their stuff seems all over the place and it’s hard to get a meaningful answer from them. Maybe with amplitube 6…
It's not clear how to proceed once you've found the max input level. If my product isn't listed in your spreadsheet, then what? What is the formula to calculate the actual input level to use?
once you know the headroom, use the table to adjust accordingly for each plugin. If your headroom is 14dBu and the plugin you are using is 12, you need to boost 2dB. If your headroom is 5dBu you’d cut 7dB. If you know the amount of headroom you can work it out for each plugin, I can’t put every single interface ever made on the table because the list would be enormous. You just add or subtract the difference
I see you looking up the levels for the interfaces, and you describe how to test others not listed, but how do we get the levels for other sims? Thank you for sharing this and all the answers in comments you've already provided.
The only way is to ask the developer and hope they give you an appropriate answer. There is always an optimal level, but often the customer service rep isn’t the developer and doesn’t always understand the question. So it can take some persistence to get through to the right person to get an accurate answer. Sometimes even the developer doesn’t know what the optimal level is - this is the case for Audio Assault. Just because they don’t know what the values, there will still be a specific input level that will be most like the real amp.
About Aurora plugin Our plugins maintain a consistent audio interface gain structure across different devices: When a sine waveform with 1 V peak amplitude is fed into the analog domain, it equates to 0.707 volts RMS or -0.79 dBu. In the digital domain, this signal corresponds to -13 dBFS. To align your interface with our recommended gain settings, you can calibrate it by inputting a sine waveform with 1 V peak amplitude (0.707 volts RMS or -0.79 dBu) and adjusting the interface gain until the DAW peak meter displays -13 dBFS. Please note that different interfaces may yield slightly different results due to their internal circuitry. Here are some examples of the corresponding dBFS levels when feeding a sine waveform with 1 V peak amplitude into various interfaces: UAD Apollo x6: -13 dBFS UAD Apollo Twin: -12.9 dBFS Quad Cortex: -15.1 dBFS (with 1M impedance) Input level at 0 on QC. Focusrite Scarlett: -13.1 dBFS Focusrite Clarett: -14.6 dBFS Apogee Duet: -14.5 dBFS Additionally, if you're using a guitar, you can achieve this calibration by connecting it to the Hi-Z input of a UAD interface with the gain set to minimum. If your interface has a Hi-Z input, leaving the gain at its default (minimum) setting should suffice. Adjust the input gain only if necessary, such as when using a guitar with lower output level, ensuring it's increased enough to avoid clipping while maintaining optimal signal quality.
i have id4 mk2, and using neural plugins. i set my gain knob on the id4 to 0, now i should boost the input gain on the plugin by 2.5 db according to the setting you posted? thank you very much for the help! you have a new SUB!
Isn't applying gain after my interface also applying gain to the noise floor and giving me more noise? I don't know much about DSP, but this sounds kinda wrong.
The noise floor of the interface and preamp is WAY lower than the noise you’ll get through your pickups and from other things in the chain. Ive measured the background noise across different gain settings and there is no benefit to increasing the preamp gain on the interface. Measure it yourself - plug a guitar in, turn the volume on the guitar up so signal passes from the pickups to the DAW. Record at different gain levels, normalise. The noisefloor of the interface won’t be a factor
@@georgeg4136 You can add more level with a plugin before Kuassa, or if your interface has stepped gain you can add it there to get to 16.8. They’ve designed their plugins with the expectation that people are recording very loud signals
I'm almost but not quite sure I understand...... so we set our plugin to the reference level they used making it and then we set our interface to the minimum possible gain, and that should give us a difference which is equal to the manufacturer maximum gain amount? Thank you
yep. First you set gain to 0, and check what your own interface specs are. Now you know the headroom of your own input chain. 2nd step is adjusting to match the headroom of whatever plugin you are using. As everyone is using different gear and levels, and the plugin has no way of telling, the adjustment is different for everyone. So this is why it’s good to know specific values, otherwise all you can do is guess
no idea for the GT-10, I would recommend measuring with a sine wave and measuring the voltage with a multimeter and dBFS level in the DAW to work it out
Idk if im not too late but UM2 is pretty much same as mine UMC22 from what was written in the manual so input level is +2dbU so for Neural it is about -10.2 dB
Got this answer for Two Notes Genome, but I don't know if it's very useful: Having the general level of your guitar input around -12dB while peaking at -3dB max is ideal. The good range is having your signal between -18 and -6dB on GENOME then you can turn the Gain knob to adapt to the amount of gain you want by ear. Please bear in mind that the same dB value read on the VU meter can change dramatically between two guitars/pickup! Let us know if you have any further questions!
yeah, it’s a rubbish answer for accuracy unfortunately. I think it’s best to ask them what dBFS level a 1V peak sine wave should appear as, and then there’s no ambiguity
@@eds4754 i can’t formulate the exact question because English is not my first language, can you just write it exactly and I will copy/paste it and send to them
Came here is John Cordy channel. I have never got amp sims to sound how I thought they should sound after seeing reviews on UA-cam I will be watching this video and trying what you suggest. Thanks
With NAM and ToneX it all depends on the person who has made the captures, everyone has totally different interfaces/reamp boxes/DI’s so they all vary a lot and most people aren’t totally sure. I know Petr Canov’s models are made for 5dBu inputs, so with a focusrite you’d need to boost by 7dB. But everyone’s will vary, the only way to know for sure is to ask the person who reamped the training file.
@@eds4754 ah I see. Thanks. Forgive me, but why would I need to boost by 7dB in that case? I'm just trying to understand the method a bit better. Thanks
@@some_g333 Sure! The Kemper DI (at default settings) has a maximum input level of 5dBu. This means if you record DI’s with a kemper, they would be 7dB louder than if you use a 12dBu input (like a focusrite). Because it’s recording a relatively loud DI, to have a signal back at unity for the capture/reamp part of the process, the signal needs less boosting than a 12dBu input would. Therefore a capture made with a kemper with default settings will sound 7dB undergained when using a 12dBu input. I believe a Quad Cortex is set up for 9.5dBu max input, and I think Fractal is 14dBu (I need to double check, but I know it has more headroom). Hope that makes sense!
Thanks for the valuable info, Ed! We appreciate all the work. I tried to set up my interface (2i2 3rd gen) and amp sim (S-Gear 3) the way you suggested and I noticed that although the driven tones sound great, the clean tones sound way too quiet. I've had cases where I had to turn all volume knobs all the way up (master knob on the amp + output gain on the plugin itself) and it was still too quiet -- I don't feel that that's the way the manufacturer expected me to use it. Have you also encountered this issue? And any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?
I’m not sure as I don’t use S-Gear and it could be caused any number of things (including working as expected). It’s best to follow these values as a starting point and adjust to what you like from there - it may be boosting the input a bit works well for some tones. Cleaner tones are typically a lot more dynamic and it can be expected to have quite wide ranging levels.
you can either measure using a multimeter and sine wave, by measuring the analog voltage of the sine wave and then seeing what dBFS level it produces. or you can run a sine wave into the MOTU instrument input, note the level, then run it into the DI box, and compare the difference in level. If the MOTU is 16dBu of headroom and produces a signal of -10dBFS, and the Country man produces a signal that is -8dBFS from the same sine wave, then the DI would be 14dBu. I have videos that show how to do both of these approaches.
So whatever the manual to my input says is "max input level" is what I set my Interface too? This is good information and I'm trying to understand it (I'm a bit slow). Thanks for providing!
@@ByTheSpirit84 no not quite, set your preamp gain to minimum and use the value from your manual to see the input gain amount to use in the spreadsheet
I'm a little bit confused - I have a Motu M4 and have the Kuassa Clarent amp sim. I turned my input gain all the way down on my interface then used a trim plugin and set it to +16.8 dB like the spreadsheet says but it made the plugin clip like crazy. Am I missing something? Adding 16.8 dB seems like a ton.
@@MayonnaiseOreo yep, that’s absolutely fine. Same goes for other plugins that use values around 0dBu like Softube, Amplitube, Audiority etc. Ignore the clip lights
Can someone explain this in plain English? I have a SSL2+, Maximum Input Level = +15 dBu I record guitar with the GAIN knob at 0 directly. The recording peaks at -16(dB I think?) in Logic Pro X. How should I adjust Gain going into an amp sim so it sounds optimal?
Well for example, for Neural DSP, the recommended plugin input gain for the SSL2+ in your table is 5.5(dBu?). What would I do in this instance? I'm quite confused about it all and think taking this as an example might help others as well.@@eds4754
Well for example, for Neural DSP, the recommended plugin input gain for the SSL2+ in your table is 5.5(dBu?). What would I do in this instance? I'm quite confused about it all and think taking this as an example might help others as well. @eds4754 @@eds4754
@@austinmurphy3933 Not really sure how it can be explained any better, it’s really simple. According to my table, SSL2+ is 15dBu. NDSP is 12.2dBu. That means you set your interface gain to 0 and NDSP to +2.8dB (the value for SSL in the NDSP column in the table). That’s it.
Thank you for this. I wonder if, instead of trying to cover all the possible interface/software combinations, there could be a table listing just interface input levels (maybe at .5dB intervals) v. plugin inout levels. That was I could find my AXE I/O inout level in its specs ("Input level, min gain: 0 dBFS is obtained with a +14 dBu signal at the TS input") and look up the 14 dBu line on the spreadsheet to find the appropriate input level for the plugin. But this is great stuff!
Yeah, I mean, if your value matched one in the table just use those values. Or if it’s between you can adjust accordingly. The information is the same either way
CONFIRMATION FROM NEURAL DSP:
1 Vp = 0.707 VRMS = -0.79 dBu equals -13 dBFS in the digital domain
This means, for accurate gain levels for NDSP plugins, if you have a UAD apollo, set your instrument input gain to 0 and you are perfectly set with plugin gain at 0.
Nembrini also use this same calibration (or at least between 12 and 13dBu). I think this is also the case for the Plugin Alliance sims Nembrini coded
So this means, I set my input gain at the lowest value (0) on my UAD Volt 1 (knob turned counter-clockwise all the way), then when I'm running a Neural DSP plugin, I set my input gain on the plugin to 0 as well right?
Can you explain what that means for a neophyte?
@@ShimiHalperin what interface are you using and what plugin?
@@eds4754 I was more just asking about the terminology -- is Vp peak to peak voltage?
Came here from John Cordy's Channel, where he mentioned this important information, and linked your video. Thanks!
Same although I am still confused by what “set your input gain to zero” actually means. Do I turn the physical gain knob all the way counterclockwise on my Steinberg UR44C? That doesn’t sound right! 😂 I feel like an idiot after watching this video…
Same)
, for me it was the opposite. I also saw John Cordy's video amd was directed here. I use amplitube, Sgear, and Neural DSP Toneking. I always set my audio interface that it doesn't clip but it always sounded that something was off but couldn't explained it. There was always too much gain. Normally you don't boost your front end of your tube amp to hear its actual tone. You plug your guitar in the input and you play. An amp sim works the same. You don't have to boost it with your interface. It has gain enough with the input gain at zero. Adjust the input gain on your amp sim according to the specs of your interface. Finally Neural DSP gave us some numbers so we can compensate. Now we can use the plugin how it's designed. No guessing involved. The Toneking now behaves as a real toneking for example. Think about it....
Same. Using Helix LT/Native, and the new ReValver 5 by Headrush with Audient Evo 4 interface. I also have an Eleven Rack.
Yep - just turn the gain down to 0. Then you can use the headroom value in the spec sheet. When the preamp gain is at 0, it simply means the interface isn’t adding any extra gain to the signal. You’ll have a healthy signal to work with and you’ll know the amount of headroom so you can adjust accurately for any plugin
Love this video what a great source of info thanks Ed S! Any idea what the input for IK amplitube software should be?
I have a separate video about Amplitube. It’s…..complicated
Will check it out thanks 🙏🏻
I have a Behringer UMC404HD. This is the specs in the manual:
Mic: -4 dBu / Line: +20 dBu / Instrument: -3 dBu
How should I navigate based on that info?
And for Neural Amp Modeler (NAM) on a interface Focusrite Scalertt 2i2 , will you know the ideal values?
@@bardiel_89 it depends on whoever made the model, it will be different for each persons individual reamp chain. You have to match their reamp level to achieve unity gain
So, I don't get why I should set interface gain to 0 and then set plugins input gain +/- an x-value. Aren't the real preamps within the interface in general not better than the simulated preamp (input) of a plugin?
Also, what happens if I have a preamp (pedal) connected to the interface? I guess, it's smarter to set interface gain to 0 and use the gain of the preamp, right? As a plugin I'd use then a poweramp + cab simulation .
there’s no real benefit to using a preamp over digital. You are adjusting for the reference level of the converters, so when your signal is hitting the plugin it will be accurate for ANY signal. This means you can use pedals or synths or whatever and it’ll react the same as plugging into a real amp
My m-audio duo doesn't have information about maximum input level, should I set the gain knob to 0?
usually a good idea, but it’s important to know what the headroom is because it always varies depending on the manufacturer and model.
It’s possible to measure the headroom yourself, you need a multimeter though. I have another video that walks through how to measure a DI input that would help.
You can also compare the level to a known input headroom. You run a sine wave into both, and compare the difference in dBFS level in the DAW. If the 12dBu input gives a -8dBFS signal, and the unknown gives a -10dBFS signal, then you know the unknown has 2dB more headroom, and has 14dBu input headroom.
@@eds4754 do u know another way , i dont have multimeter :(
@@onlyzeus3587 you’d need either a multimeter or another interface to compare against. Do you have something else or one you can borrow?
A multimeter only costs $15 or so, or there are plenty of suitable interfaces for under $100
What a difference! Now it's way easier to dial in ultra clean tones, and my gain tones have more dynamic range. Thank you very much!
oh you're too kind. Thanks so much!
@@eds4754 I'd like to contribute to your spreadsheet, how do you measure the correct gain compensation? What's your methodology?
@@ImpostorModanica you have to ask the developers what internal reference level they are using, that’s the only way to determine it
@@eds4754 oh, but can't it be verified with a test signal?
@@ImpostorModanica you can measure the headroom of your input chain with a sine wave (I have a video on how to do that), but to know what level the specific plugin wants requires information that only the developer will know.
Was struggling to figure out the AXE I/O values, but the specs state "0 dBFS is obtained with a +14 dBu signal at the TS input" so I am using the same values as Avid MBOX Studio. Hope that helps someone! This has really made a difference with my NeuralDSP tones.
Thanks :)
Thanks a TON to you and @Classic_DionysuS. I was looking all over for these numbers!!!
Does anyone know the correct input gain for AuroraDSP, AudioAssault and Genome?
Rofl this is amazing. I have the AXE IO (+14dbu) and turning it down to zero and adding 1.8 to the NDSP plugin made this thing sound instantly better.
So random question here Ed... the Polychrome (McRocklin) plugin is calling for values above +12... but the plugins input gain only goes up to 12.0. How would someone navigate that?
This is game changing! Huge thanks Ed.
The vast, vast majority of guitarists using plugins will plug into the Hi-Z input, give a boost to the signal by setting to 'Inst' level, then give a further boost by ramping up the gain pot till the interface meter shows just below 0dB reading when playing. If I'm reading correct, we should be setting the gain pot all the way down to close to 0?
Up till now, I've been using an RME Fireface 802, plugging into the left most front combo mic/instrument jack (channel 9), setting 'Inst' in TotalMixFx, turning the Fireface gain knob up till the meter in TotalMixFx is just below 0 (gain setting around +35). I've never, ever been happy with any plugin clean sound and edge of breakup (Bias/S-Gear/ Tone King Imperial MkII/Tonex/ etc). I have no idea if the 'distorted' sounds are correct, lol.
What is truly shocking is how the manufacturers have been doing this so differently...and NOT telling us !!!
Since you're being so active in the comments, I wanted to say thank you for your efforts. I'm sure that it's a lot of work, and it doesn't go unnoticed! Also, I have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and the MixWave Milkman plugin if you have any specific tips to help me get those sweet Fender Cleans!
I’m not sure for MixWave, nor played a Milkman. All the information I’ve had from Mixwave so far has been along the lines of “just below clipping” which is what we want to get away from…..
I would start with focusrite gain at 0 and reference to some youtube demos of the amp. If you have to adjust the input level a lot, just be aware that it’s absolutely fine.
Best bet is to ask them directly and perhaps show the videos that discuss this topic. It should be a very easy question for the developer to answer, but often the customer support won’t fully understand the question.
I use a UA Volt 2 and mostly play through the Milkman and Benson Mixwave plugins (and have some experience playing through real Benson amps as a point of reference, around the same time I bought the Mixwave version). I'll play around with the interface input gain setting more at some point, but in my experience Mixwave amp sims react similarly to NDSP and Scuffham's offerings. Ed's recommendations for those can be a good starting point.
How many youtube videos have you seen of plugins from these companies where the input level is at default settings?
Are most people getting the most accurate experience of amp sim plugins?
Fantastic work, thank you! Half of UA-cam has now picked up on this and is now selling it as the big news. I was constantly asking myself what is all the fuss about NAM, it sounds horrible. Now that is the answer.
However, another problem remains. With clean tones, e.g., Neural DSP Tone King, and the rest of the system set to "reasonable" volume levels, the sound is still not impressive. Only when I crank the overall volume of the system up do these clean sounds come out right and sound as they are intended to do. But if I forget to turn down when switching to UA-cam, it will be extremely loud. When I just use the output volume adjustment in the Neural DSP, it will still overdrive the sound. Is there another trick to make clean sounds nice at very low volumes?
Im a complete novice, so apologies.
Firstly, thank you for such a great video.
Just to clarify, i would set my input gain (the knob) all the way down then add the input on the plug in itself?
I have a focusrite 3rd gen solo.
Thank you again
set the gain to 0 (all the way down) and then use the table to find what level to set to (depends on the plugin/company who makes it). Which plugin are you using?
@@eds4754 I'm using neural DSP.
Thank you so much for replying by the way. Apologies for just seeing this now
@@declanturner8108 yeah 0 is ideal for NDSP
Thanks for this video. What about the dBu on Mixwave amps ie. Mixwave Mike Stringer?
@@Robbie-uw2mp No idea for mixwave, I would recommend asking them
If enough people ask them, maybe they will realize they can release the information that every major amp sim company has released by now.
I love their Benson Chimera plugin, but man, their customer service is really useless when it comes to answering basic questions that the manual doesn't cover.
The bloke with the funny cap brought me here, thank you very much friend!
for the first time, amp sims FEEL good to play for me now. The sound has been there for quite some time at this point, but this really improved the feel of basically every single guitar plugin I have. Thank you !
hi everyone, does anyone use the presonus audiobox ione?
cant seem to find the max input values, presonus technical support says its not listed.
anybody know the values for guitar Rig 7? thanks!
Hi. Great straight to the point and very easy to understand video!
But I have a question: I have a PreSonus Studio 68 and according to their specs the "instrument input maximum level is +15 dBu (unbalanced, min gain)". The input gain control knob gauge on the interface goes from -15 to +65 dB. In the manual it says: "These knobs provide 80 dB of variable gain (-15 to +65 dB) on the microphone and instrument inputs." Does that mean I should set the knob to 0 dB or to the minimum value it can go to (i.e .-15 dB)?
I think at minimum gain it may be subtracting 15dB of gain, but I don't have a Presonus interface so I can't check. My advice would be to try and measure with a sine wave and multimeter if something seems off. Based on the number of comments from Presonus users, I suspect "0" isnt at minimum settings (minimum is probably more like a -15dB pad)
Have you spoken to Kuassa? I’d love to know what the input is supposed to be for their plug-ins
Got a reply, Kuassa is 1Vp=0dBFS. I added it to the table
I have an Audient EVO 4, how can I tell if the input level on my interface is at zero? There's only sliders... there's no numbers. Any tips there? Even in the desktop software there are no numbers.
you just reduce the slider’s to their minimum (as in making the signal quieter), and you’ll have 10dBu of headroom
Universal Audio Volt2: Maximum Input Level: 12.5 dBu
Thanks im gonna try this and hopfully reduces the noise on some plugins. And I can finally stop adjusting the input on the interface for different pickups and I can also play around with pickup height like with the real thing.
What about amplitube5? I used guitar rig a long time a go and i could get some very nice tones out of that one, but now i use focusrite scarlett 18i8 + amplitube 5, and i seem to have a hard time dialing in that nice guitar tone, that's warm and clear, and on the edge of breakup.
Thanks for the useful info I just would like to ask how should I set Amplitube 5 because I don't see it on the list?
Or there is no info about it?
IK won’t provide any information, and from trying to work it out myself, they definitely aren’t using one consistent level for all models. Some seem to be -6dBu or lower, some -3dBu, some 0dBu, some 12dBu
@@eds4754 Hi Ed! You know this values by comparing the Amplitube models to the real amps?
@@cassio_zambotto Yeah, I’ve done some videos on it. All you can really do is guess by comparing to the real deal
Hello Ed S - I was wondering if you could please please let me know what should the input volume be when using the Audient iD22 along with positive bias FX2 and amplitube 5... thank you so much
Thanks for this! It all makes perfect sense now. For your records or anyone still rocking much older hardware (like myself), I did some sleuthing and the Max Input Level for the Line 6 Pod X3 Series is 5Vpp. Which translates to 7.17dBu. So that value should be good for the Pod X3 (bean), Pod X3 Live (floor unit) and the Pod X3 Pro (rackmount) interfaces.
Since moving over to almost exclusively computer based amp sims about a year ago, I found my signal noticeably hot when following the old suggested “max your input to just below clipping” method. Where cleaning up clean tones on most amps especially more gainy ones was total a pain in the butt. I eventually settled on a ballpark of about -6dB off my DAW’s peak input (before clipping) to give me about the right headroom for a more realistic amp response in my specific setup. Which looking at your math and technique and the 7.17dB value for my Line 6 Pod X3, isn’t too far off and my intuition that my gained preamp levels were acting more like a boost pedal, which now makes perfect sense.
I’m so glad someone finally put the thought and legwork into getting the math, logic, and responses from the industry dialed in for all of us looking for more faithful tones between setups, interfaces, and simulators.
Thank you!
This method is only for passive pickups, or for active too?
@@АлександрКиселёв-п2д anything at all. The pickups essentially don’t matter, it’s removing the variable of the audio interface.
When calibrated, you can plug any pickup or synth or microphone etc in and it would be like plugging that directly into the real amp.
I would also like to add that profilers such as NAM rely on end users to make the profiles. This is another place where the proper gain for emulation can be troublesome as a target. Thank you for the content :)
Yep absolutely. I have a few videos on how to measure and calibrate reamp chains so this information can be provided with NAM/ToneX/AIDA-X/GuitarML etc models
The problem i have the the presonus 24c is that i don't know where 0 is. The pot goes from -15 on the left to 65 on the right, and no indication of where 0 actually is between those 2. Anyone got any ideas? Not sure if i'm just being an idiot. Can't find anything in the manual.
Stellar. Another pilgrim from John Cordy’s channel. Thanks for sharing this.
Hi Ed, thanks for all the work you did to clear this up for SO many people. Question though: the specs for my interface (Behringer UMC404HD) say Mic: -4 dBu / Line: +20 dBu / Instrument: -3 dBu. Am I right in assuming that that means the dBu at minimum gain would be 17 dBu on the instrument setting? It would seem odd to increase the gain by 15.2 dB in NDSP plugins! :P
@@eldertmohr1366 -3dBu is correct, it’s very low headroom unless you use the pad (which I believe is 20dB so you end up with 17dBu). Without the pad at -3dBu, your signal would actually be 15.2dB too loud for NDSP, so you’d have to reduce by that amount. If it’s clipping, use the pad and boost 5.2dB
Thank you Ed ! Finally the MidBite on the Toneking works as meant, ty so much ❤
You’re welcome!
Update from Mike Scuffham (TLDR 12dBu, but try up to 9dBu as well if you want a bit more gain):
Hello again Ed,
I’ve just caught up with what you’ve been doing and now understand what you are looking for and why.
With S-Gear, nominally the headroom is approx 12dBu. With my RME interfaces, I’ll often add another 3dB boost (sometimes using a Lehle Sunday Driver into my audio interface), which I think gives very good results. So, you could say between 9 and 12 dBu nominal, but I encourage experimentation because often the amps have different sweet spots when you hit them harder/softer with different guitars/pickups.
With a focusrite Scarlett audio interface, you can set the input gain knob to zero, or just above to give some extra body to the sound. To my ears, it sounds better to boost on the focusrite rather than in the box. This could be some characteristic of the focusrite.
Cheers,
Mike
Hi! maybe I´m doing something wrog.. with S-gear and my Presonus 1810 (15dbu max, input level) if I put gain knob to zero and add about 3db on plugin, it sounds almost clean, with amp gain crancked. The same with NDSP. With Petrucci model, 3er amp sim (a gain beast) with this method, knob at zero and 5.5db on plugin (as chart says) with the gain amp crancked sounds like edge breakup log gain amp... not to mention piezo sim... it doesn´t sound anymore. I only think it sounds better with the interface gain between -18 or -12db. Have I miss something?
@@mastersystem80 it could be something to do with how presonus mark their levels on their interfaces, a few people have mentioned this. With Presonus it may be best to measure with a sine wave or to compare against an interface with a known headroom amount
@@mastersystem80 looks like the preamps may attenuate 15dB at lowest settings. Best to check with a sine wave and multimeter
Ok, thanks for the Info!!! I’ll try!
I have the same problem with Behringer UMC22 and S-Gear. Either the max input in the specifications is off (+2dbU seems suspicious), or the S-Gear specifications are. In S-gear, if I cut -10db before the plugin and 0 gain on the interface, I really have to push the signal hard after the plugin, crunch sounds max, and have terrible signal to noise ratio.
The truth is that it works excellent, years of using everything wrong and suddenly everything makes sense, the truth is, thank you very much for giving us this possibility of understanding how this works and taking advantage of everything in a better way. Ed S is GOD!!
UPDATE: I think my values for Softube at 1V=0dBFS are about 3dB too high. I’ll put a link to an updated table in the description.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZHaapCiCg4RLIFqTS5KyUUVa4MwaqfxRCYk35Bvdrs/edit?usp=sharing
if you run a test oscillator before softube Marshall and you check the input meter inside the plugin you see that the reference level is -17dbfs. With single coils if I use the SSL 2 and and a trim before softube, I need to boost 12db to peak at -17dbfs. There is also a 'headroom' level inside the Marshall plugin but the use is not clear and it's something they added recently I guess because its use is not described inside the manual :/
updated this to include Antelope Zen Tour Synergy Core, Discreet 8 Pro Synergy Core and Orion Studio Synergy Core
one more update - Fuse Audio Labs:
F-59 = 0dBFS=18dBu
Pedals = 0dBFS=14dBu
The max input for the Clarett 4USB (instrument input) is 14db in case you want to add it to you list. Do you know what level does Amplitube 5 expect?
@@valimaki Thanks! I’m trying to find this information for Amplitube but it seems as though they use various levels depending on the model. I have found that many of the models need AT LEAST 20dB boost (if you are using 12dBu). I’d try using the slash boost at +20dB and then boost 1-3dB more on the input slider.
When I get a suitable response from IK, i’ll include here and i’ll try and do a video too.
Hi Ed. Do you have a way we can contact you to add additional plugin developer's data to your Google Doc?
can either leave a comment here, or hit me up via the mirror profiles website mirrorprofiles.myshopify.com/pages/contact
Hey, thanks for this, keen to try. just to confirm, you turn input gain on interface to lowest possible level?
Yes, this is so it matches the known specs of your interface. Lowest gain=highest headroom they can list. If you increase the gain, it either has to be by a known specific amount, or you can measure the headroom using a sine wave (with a known voltage). That way requires a multimeter, I have videos on how to do that.
If you want to update the spreadsheet I can add Max input level for:
Apogee Jam+ = 18 dBu
Focusrite Clarett series = 14 dBu
Focusrite Clarett+ series = 15dBu
This is game changing information. It should be general knowledge and put in all manuals from here on in. Do you know the plug in alliance calibration numbers? You’ve covered all my other sims in your chart.
Thanks for doing this.
yeah, they’re made by Nembrini so follow that 12-13dBu range. Its in the most recent table in the link above
@@eds4754cheers mate. I really appreciate what you’ve done here. My bass sims actually sound good now too. I can’t believe this has been overlooked for so long.
I’ve always wondered about this but wasn’t knowledgeable enough to figure it out. Thanks again.
That's fantastic work! I have a Steinberg UR22 mkII, the specs say that the maximum input level is 8.5 dBV (equivalent to 10.7 dBu). I measured my unit---following your advice from another of your videos---to be 10.8 dBu.
Maybe you can consider adding it to the spreadsheet :)
In any case, thank you so so much! Finally my plugins sound decent
hi! im using the UR22mkII too. The values you mentioned here are, for de HI-Z second imput, true?
I have one problem when recordin guitar with Hi-Z imput, because my DAW (studio one) tell me that the signal is clipping, when i stroke the strings masively.
Do you have the same problem? Can you tell me if im doing something wrong?
Thanks!
This is too shock! a lot people don't know about it including professionals, huge thanks to this video and information! that explained why DSP pedals doesn't need a gain knob too.
It's not just that - specifically a ton of plugins and interfaces explicitly said to turn the gain up as far as you can without clipping. Amp modelling software like TH-U even has a thing on its input level selector that tells you strum and turn it louder. So it's not something people don't know so much as something that a significant proportion of the industry has been telling people to do the wrong thing
@@michael1 Absolutely right!
Can you get the guitar sound good through plugins?
No matter where I set the gain knob on my interface, let it be on zero or slightly up, I always get very very dark, muddy, bottom heavy DI which just doesn't sounds good when I play guitar through any amp sims. Tried almost every amp sim, but they just don't sound OK. Infact very bad, muddy and mushy.
I am sure I insert the guitar cable into High-Z input. Tried various gain knob settings including zero.
I can't find out either in the manual or on the internet, nor do I have the multimeter or the reamp box to measure the maximum input volume of my Roland duo capture ex. Please, if anyone has the information on the maximum input volume of the Roland duo capture ex I would be very grateful if you could give me that information. In the manual it indicates that the headroom has 14 dB, in case that helps. Thank you very much for this video Ed S, the information for the entire community is invaluable and a real bombshell.
I’m sure you’re getting heavy traffic thanks to Rhett and Cordy but I noticed your list doesn’t have Amplitube 5 and BiasFX. Any information would be appreciated… also, now that the TMP is out will there be info on that? Both Jason and Max from Fender are very active with the people in the FB group and would have answers for any questions you might have
Speaking to Positive Grid atm so hopefully have some guidance soon. No word on Amplitube, IK have been unable to provide any specific values despite trying for months
@@eds4754 Excellent. Came looking for Positive Grid BIAS FX 2.
So glad I actually watched Rhett's video despite the title burying the lede about gain staging. I've been plagued by noise from my PC and this taught me that all I needed to do was turn the input knob of my Scarlet 2i2 3rd gen down to 0 and back down the gain in NI Guitar Rig Pro 6 and with the gate almost off I just need to move a few feet away from my PC and turn 90 degrees and Robert's your parent's sibling.
It's amazing, the sheer incompetence at IK Multimedia, or their lack of actually caring for the players struggling with their plugin.
How else can they not answer this in MONTHS?
@@TV-lr2qr there’s a lot I like about IK’s products but certain policies of theirs just give me a lack of confidence in what they do
@@eds4754 No bias fx info yet
This is awesome info! It's a relief to know there's a right way to do this. My interface (M-Audio Firewire 1814 - yeah it's like 20 years old) is listed at -3.8 dBu at the input, so even at 0 my guitars clip at the input. But it has a -20dB pad button which I usually use. If using the pad, is the math as simple as adding 20 (from the pad) to the -3.8 dBu for the MIL to get a value of 16.2 dBu?
that’s exactly correct!
If you find it a bit noisy, and you have the means to accurately adjust the gain, you can always increase to something like 12-13dBu.
You’d basically run a sine wave into the input and measure with a dBFS meter in the DAW. Just turn the gain up until the level is 4dB higher than where it starts.
The other thing to check is the impedance - I think the input impedance of the instrument inputs is only 500k Ω, and really 1M Ω would be better for guitars. If you ever upgrade you’ll know which specs to pay attention to :)
@@eds4754 Thanks so much! I'm sure I'll be looking for a new interface in the next year or two, good to keep that in mind!
I have gone to school for this stuff and thus, I'd like to extend a word of caution: the reason why you want to dial in the input gain of your interface is to get an optimal signal to noise ratio (SNR). Basically, an audio interface (just like any other piece of audio processing equipment with analog circuitry) has a noise floor. That is the lower boundary of its dynamic range. The upper boundary is defined by when it starts clipping. So when we adjust the input gain, we adjust our signal level so it's as far away from the noise floor as can be while not hitting the ceiling (clipping). Fully analog gear has a high noise floor while the clipping (saturation) is considered pleasing by many. This is why with analog gear, we raise the signal to just shy of clipping - if it clips occasionally it's not too bad, but if it's closer to the noise floor than it needs to be, it is bad. But digital gear is different: it has a far lower noise floor, but we don't want it to clip. Ever. Thus, we keep a safe distance or -12 to -18 dB so we have enough headroom. That is proper gain setting on a digital system.
If you have properly set your interface's input gain so your signal is at -18dB and it's still too much for your plugin to have proper headroom, don't adjust the input gain. Use a trim plugin instead. Trim is a digital control, i.e. it doesn't involve any noisy analog circuitry, unlike the mic preamp in an interface. So when we lower the trim, it can lower the noise floor. Thus, by inserting a trim plugin instead of lowering the interface's input gain, you are preserving your good SNR. If you lower the volume using the input gain, you will have a worse SNR and all that any plugin coming after it in the signal chain can do is amplify all parts of the signal, including the noise, so you end up with a noisier signal.
In theory you are correct, but you're missing a very important point here - guitar pickups have SIGNIFICANTLY more noise than an audio interface. If you are recording a source that has an extremely low noisefloor (like another converter), then you would want to optimise the SNR to avoid having excess noise.
When recording something like guitar pickups, your noise floor is constrained by the noise floor of the source you are recording. If you record a hotter signal, the noise of the pickups gets turned up too and the signal to noise ratio doesnt improve. Check my recent videos as I've demonstrated this with audio and gain compensated files.
The other thing to remember, is a guitar recorded at 12-16dBu of headroom or so is already quite close to clipping and is a perfectly loud signal that is far from the noise floor. Recording lower than 12dBu is sure to clip when using humbuckers. Going as far as 20dBu won't make much difference at all, besides being quieter. The noise floor of converers is MILES below the noise of the pickups so a few dB here or there will make no audible difference. Its better to have an accurate idea of how much headroom you have and then you can have a more realistic gain response from plugins, than worrying about trying to improve the SNR by a couple of dB (that you cant notice because it gets covered by the noise of the pickups).
@@eds4754 that is a very important point that I did not take into consideration, thanks!
Brainworx amp sims (at least the majority) provide a level trimming in the amp sim itself. I level my guitar interface (e.g. dbx 386) so that I reach about -6db in the daw and then adjust to about -20db (adding -14 in this case) in the amp sim. Works fine for me.
@@benjaminheyer6980I don’t think it’s just Brainworx. I’m not at my computer RN, but I think all of my amp sims either have a trim built in, or can be trimmed in the DAW beforehand. This video is interesting but I see a lot of people miss the comment in the video that says this is a starting point. What sounds good, is good. So if having a (virtual) super hot guitar output into a (virtual) amp or the inverse sounds good, then you have your sound. These days with 24 bit interfaces it’s almost hard to lose a signal, especially an inherently noisy guitar output, in the noise floor of the system. So the only thing you really, desperately, at any cost, have to avoid is overdriving the AD circuitry. Unless that’s what you’re going for, but in 99.999% of circumstances, it won’t be.
This video shows how to get a great baseline, what the programmers intended. But this is audio, music. Start with the rules then break them to see if it sounds better.
@@julianmorrisco I Can't agree more on the "rule breaking" :-) But I remember times when I didn't understand why I wasn't able to get a nice clean sound out of an amp sim. I don't understand why the manufacturers didn't adress this issue in the first place and why the "problem" wasn't advertised e.g. "if you want the amp sim to sound the closest to the original possible drive it with minus 20db" or the like, Instead they let us figure it out and it is not even the same with all amp sims. I think amplitube has a button for automatic levelling ...
P.S.: I double checked. e.g. There are no examples or reccomendations for the input levelling with my favorite amp sim to be found in the manual ...
Thanks you! I appreciate all you are doing for the community and for answering my novice-level questions.
So for Volt1 with Softube I should boost +12db in Amproom itself or via gain knob on the audio interface?
boost in the plugin, or with a gain plugin before it. If you boost on your interface you’ll be close to clipping, it’s better to record with some headroom. Once the signal is recorded you don’t have to worry about clipping inside the plugin, they have basically infinite headroom (just don’t clip your D/A coming out)
Softube told me 12dBu for Amproom, but the Marshall models are quite clearly undergained at that level and sound correct at 1V=0dBFS. So maybe double check what sounds best if you are using amps other than Marshall.
@@eds4754 thanks 👍! Just few seconds ago I've eyeballed my gain knob position to interface Gain Range of 55db and found that my current 9 o'clock knob position is roughly corresponding to +11db 😅
But definitely will follow your advice. (I have Vintage and Marshall suits)
ha our ears can be surprisingly accurate! always handy to have some kind of fixed reference point that’s easy to get back to, and is consistent for all guitars and amp models though!
@@SugarTouchthe peak level of your guitar isn’t important, guitar levels always vary depending on the guitar and what you are playing.
12.2dBu describes the headroom of the input, not the peak level of the guitar. Quieter guitars will record lower, louder guitars will be louder. It’s all good and as it should be.
@eds4754 Thank you for all your work on this. I'm sorry if others have been able to figure this out, but I find myself losing the handle. I'm using Amplitube 5 (I know they're not forthcoming with numbers) and iRig Pro Duo (max output 16dbu). In your other videos you say that AT5 is undergained and put the input slider at max (or add a boost pedal adding +17) to get decent sounds. But here you appear to be saying to set the gain on the physical interface to zero and then adding anywhere from 0 to 10 (from your responses to other comments here) on the input slider. I'm probably misunderstanding something but it sounds like two different pieces of advice.
Other questions:
What volume is your guitar at when you test? Full? Where you normally play?
People keep calling it a plugin which makes me think maybe this advice isn't for using AT5 as standalone? Should I be using something like Studio One (which I use for recording) with AT5 as a plugin and incorporate Studio One's gain somehow?
I'd be grateful for any insights, but either way thanks again for your work!
@@Phaedrus68 with an interface at 0 the amount of level you have to add will be different for everyone, as all interfaces are different. Similarly the amount of gain you have to add is different for each model. So the amount of level that needs to be added varies a lot.
The guitar can be any volume - the goal is that it no matter how it’s set the model would respond as the real amp would.
Thanks Ed! I record via Rupert Neve DI into a mic input of an Apollo 8. When I compare it to the Hi-Z input, it's a little hotter. Do you happen to have the Input level to set Neural DSP plugins to for that DI?
@@pierregermain6381 Run a sine wave into the Neve input and see how much hotter it is than the UAD. The subtract whatever the difference is from 12.2dBu
Thanks for this. Just tried it and found it sounded and felt good to play through some of those amp sims
No worries, glad it helped! Its really amazing how it can bring some of these to life and makes them very true to the originals. So many amp sims can be quite undergained for a lot of people without some adjustment
hi ed, I asked kazrog what the entry level of ampcraft 1992 was and he told me the following: "The plugin was calibrated using DI track files that averaged - 23 dB RMS unprocessed, but there is enough headroom on tap that anything within +/- 3dB of that target should be fine for just about any purpose."
what is it supposed to mean?
@@Andersrain It’s a kind of BS answer, it needs to be stated with reference to a constant analog voltage (either volts or dBu) and a dBFS level that the analog level corresponds to
Big respectt to you brother for responding to every comment asking for their setting
i’ll be playing their guitars for them next 😅
@@eds4754 😂😂😂
@@eds4754 ye but speaking of questions... may I have one too😂😂 I use Focusrite scarlett solo 2nd gen max lvl input 13dbu with Neural DSP plugins, mostly Abasi and Tim Henson, when I use this method I get very quiet tone and notes die very quickly even if I dont have any noise gate, that is for distortion tones, Cleans I cant even hear properly. My setup is just guitar→cable→focusrite→monitors. If you can give me at least some hints I will be very thankful
@@martingaspar8364 is instrument input selected? are you using the right cable?
If you have any doubts, the best way is to make a sine wave of a known voltage and check what level if comes through as. To Troubleshoot you kind of have to go through and find what could be throwing it off as it could be a number of things that are hard to diagnose remotely
@@eds4754 yes inst input is always selected, my cable is not the best tbh and Im getting a new, better one tomorrow. about that sine wave, bro I have no idea what youre talking about, but thank you anyway, maybe I will figure it out somehow
Alright, say you had a whole bunch of guitars recorded straight into the interface (iD4) just before the clipping point, what would be the best way to decrease their DI gain to match the interface being at 0 ? Lowering the input of the plugin or using a gain plugin ? Or would either work the same ? Thank you, I've been experimenting with this all day.
@@eliaskapravelos7171 same difference
Hi, what if I chained 1 drive pedal into the interface? For example any boss drive pedal like BD-2, OD-3, then how to plus/minus the input volume from the plugin based on my interface? Thanks in advance!
@@lookfor17 same value, you are only compensating for your converters. it would be just like plugging your pedals into the amp
so I have a behringer umc202hd, states the instrument level input has a maximum input gain of -3 dBu on the instrument input, and then with the pad engaged that knocks off 20 db, so should I then be increasing my input in the neural dsp plugin to 4.8? I just tried it in archetype petrucci and it sounds good this way, but I just want to be sure i'm understanding correctly.
yes that’s exactly right
I've been trying to get usable tones from amp sims since many many years and don't know what's wrong. They always sound very very weird. Very very boomy in bottom end and very very thin in high end. It just doesn't sounds and feels like it should. I've watched several youtube videos and pretty much everyone gets awesome tones even on default settings. But it just sounds like something is not right at my place. I've tried different interfaces like RME Babyface Pro FS and also the focusrite. I get same results on both. And yes, I connect guitar to the High Z input. Yet it sounds very very muddy and mushy, no matter which amp sim plugin. Tried all, from Neural DSP, ML sound, STL, Th-U, Amplitube. Nothing works at all. All sound muddy and mushy.
If I import my friend's DI guitar track file into my DAW (Reaper) and apply the same plugins on his DI, then it sounds awesome. But only when I plug in my guitar (many different guitars), then it sounds horrible. Just not usable. Not sure how to explain sound to someone over text comment. But if you know what I'm talking about, then please let me know what's wrong.
@@ratedrsuperstarthega If your levels are correct, I’d make sure you are using the instrument input and not the line input, and then check your cable, guitar wiring etc. With the gear you have, nothing should stop you getting excellent tones
A small question, since I use a very old sound card, what input level would be optimal for the neural dsp? In the Daw it appears around -14db -17db, would this be an optimal level?
@@devouringfamine2427 the whole point of this video is that you cannot determine the correct level from the peaks of your guitar, because they always vary.
Check the specs of your specific interface and use the table in the link to work out what levels to use
Hola, amigo, te saludo desde la otra parte del mundo. He visto detalladamente muchos de tus vídeos (con el reto de traducir todo, ya que no está activado la opción de subtítulos).
Como comentas, la estructura de ganancia de los plugins no ha sido tomada con un interés alturado, mas, me encuentro con una cuestión que tal vez pueda ayudarnos (aunque cabe la posibilidad de equivocarme, aunque no lo creo). Revisando la lista que hiciste, tomaste en cuenta la interfaz AXE I/O - ONE, y escribes que esta interfaz, con la ganancia en mínimo, te arroja un valor de 10.5 dB, pero, revisando sus especificaciones técnicas, lo que menciona es que, estando con la perilla de ganancia al mínimo, SE NECECITAN 10.5 dB PARA LLEGAR AL LÍMITE SIN CLIPEAR (0 dBFS), entonces, esta interpretación, la de que en la perilla al mínimo te arroja 10.5 dB al mínimo, podría ser errónea, ya que, por lo menos hasta donde pude investigar, IK MULTIMEDIA (creadores de la interfaz), NO ha especificado explícitamente la cuantización de la ganancia de sus entradas TS.
Bueno, para concluir, escribo todo esto porque, al igual que tú, me hice la misma cuestión acerca del por qué suena relativamente mal las emulaciones de guitarra/bajo, en mi caso, cuando utilizo mi programa de plugins (AMPLITUBE 5), con mi interfaz AXE I/O (con la misma peculiaridad en torno al control de ganancia que la AXE I/O - ONE).
Me alegro mucho de haber encontrado tu canal y tus vídeos en la búsqueda de este conocimiento considerablemente desconocido.
Muchas gracias por compartir conocimiento y muchos saludos, amigo.
Atte. Un nuevo suscriptor.
P.D.: Los links con la información técnica de las interfaces
www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeioone/index.php?p=specs (AXE I/O - ONE)
www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeio/index.php?p=specs (AXE I/O)
Buscar en el apartado de especificaciones (Instrument Input).
Hi there.
Yes, those are the correct values to use for Axe I/O and Axe I/O one. Unfortunately they don’t have any relation to the required levels needed in Amplitube - IK uses a range of specs for all its interfaces, presumably with the assumption to people would adjust their preamp gain anyway.
It’s frustrating they won’t offer any accurate help but maybe with AT6 they’ll handle this better.
Came from John Cordy’s vid. Like and subscribed. Thank you for the excellent work and info!!
Tremendously helpful. Thank you.
For Apollo Twin X users, the minimum hi-z gain is +10db, should i put a trimmer to make it 0 db, or just leave it at +10db?
when it is set to +10dB, the headroom is 12.2dBu. 10dB is the gain of the preamp, 12.2dBu is the headroom of the converter (with that 10dB applied to the signal). Hope that makes sense
@@eds4754 Get it, thanks!!
i think the best input level is the one that sounds the best😊
@@inlandbott “best” is subjective and down to the individual. Hearing the amp as it was intended is part of the design and modelling process.
Usually the amp designers know what they’re doing and hearing it as they intended is the best starting point to get a good tone dialled in. From there you can make an informed decision on whether to adjust input levels more, or to adjust amp settings or use a pedal. Guessing is not a good or fast way to land on great results.
But whatever gets the job done is best. Knowledge never hurts anyone.
I use a bit of an old interface, M-Audio's Fast Track, it shows that the input is 12dBv min. gain. I found an online calculator that converted this to 14.2dBu. I don't understand much about these calculations, but I came up with the value of +1.78 for NeuralDSP and +2.46 for Helix Native, it doesn't look right. Are there any cake recipes for dummies? 😂
sounds about right to me, well done for converting dBV to dBu!
@@eds4754 By the way, I think about using a buffer before the interface (specifically the Boss ML-2 pedal in bypass that has the buffer active), I saw that it helps to fix Hi-Z problems, and those things that I don't understand much. How should I deal with this? I know it has a nominal input of -20dBu, input impedance of 1 M ohn, the values are the same for output. That would interfere with the calculation, wouldn't it?
@@Morailson no, it wouldn’t interfere here - you are calibrating for the conversion ratio of the converter (how it represents dBu as dBFS). Using the buffer before the interface would be like using the buffer before the real amp, it might affect the tone very slightly but the level should be correct.
Typical 9V buffers have about 3V headroom which is usually 12dBu so your peaks may clip slightly depending on what pickups you use and how loud you play. It’s not an issue at all though, it’s just in a DAW you can see it, whereas with a real amp you wouldn’t.
@@eds4754 That's great 😊 thanks for helping me.
Thanks!!
No problem!
I checked the table and although it sounds logical for most am sims, for Guitar Rig it soynds like nonsense. For my RME on 0 and -5.5 input gain in a plugin it's gonna be a silence clean sound or slightly crunched tone for every amp. It can't be right.
18dBu is what NI told me (I double checked with them) but 12dBu seemed closer to me.
ggd studio cabinet. can you help seaching a input level ? because i want to use with neural dsp plugin
it doesn't matter for cab sims, they don't have non linearities. Just don't clip and you're good.
Any one using Focusrite 2i2 with Cubase and Amplitube?
What's your settings?
@@vayzeria I have a video about Amplitube, it essentially needs a different value for each amp and IK won’t provide any info so you have to guess for each one
@@eds4754 thanks for the reply. Think i have s Downton that works for me. The maximum input for a high Z instrument is about 13 dBu. So i figure, if my guitar signal is about half way on the soundcard. That should mean i push about 6 Dbu.
So that means i should lower my gain signal in my daw with the same number.. -6 db (on the actuall channel i have my amp sim)
From the i can use a eq or any plugin with a gain knob the tweak the setting for each amp.
So what I've read on several channels in to crank the gain channel to the maximum input of my soundcard +13 dBu. Wich only adds nothing but distortion/running to hot!
Hope understand what I'm trying to say 😉 I needed to find the balance and i feel/hear that it sound better 👌
It looks like you have a mistake in the chart. Presonus Studio 24c has 10db max input.
thanks, updated. Lots of presonus seem to use 15dBu
What about if i use UAD amp sims like the Fender 55?
if you’re using a UAD interface, gain at 0/12.2dBu
@@eds4754 Oh yeah i forgot i have the Apollo Solo
@@Tupac_Shakur-NL yeah, its the same. All UAD interfaces use the same gainstaging and they designed it with their own plugins in mind.
I found your original Reddit post, and man you took a lot of ill informed shit. there's zero issue with people not understanding complex stuff, but with people thinking they know everything and being pricks about it, sigh. for anyone who doesn't get this - yes you can just mess with your input gain on the interface, or digitally, until you like the sound. nothing wrong with that. but amps are very finely tuned non-linear processors, the sweet spots are completely tuned to sound best at known input voltage levels. if you don't hit those amps with a real-world representation of a guitar output, it won't sound or respond its best. for creative use or dial-in by ear, sure, it doesn't matter. but if you want a sim amp to actually sound and respond like the real thing, for whatever reason (also just to see what it was actually designed and tuned to do), then you want to hit it with the same level you would in the analog world. op, thanks for persisting through the ignorance storm. now I have to research my own setup.
Ha thanks. When I made that post, I was mostly curious to what % of people on there would understand the concept, I didn’t expect everyone to get it but it was quite funny how universally slated it was.
Well described there, exactly how I see it. I think some audio engineers can put their guard up a little when things like dBu, voltage, dBFS, multimeters etc are mentioned
Hey, thanks for theese precious informations! I’ve a question tho, I’m using Positive Grid Bias FX2 combined with a Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 3rd gen, what value of input gain should i set in Bias? Thanks!!
Matteo
So far there is no accurate information from Positive Grid :(
wow! thank you so much for this!!!!! Could u make a recommendation regarding the levels to set for Guitar Rig 6? ❤ thank u so much for this!!
Guitar Rig 7 is on my spreadsheet, I would presume it’s the same for GR6 as NI said they use the same reference level for 1Vp for ALL of their plugins
@@eds4754 bro...my bad... I just found it 🙏🏼 gona send u a super thanks for my stupidity 🥲
Like many others I found this through another channel, and this answers so many questions I've had about the Neural stuff and plugins in general. Like it always bothered me that going DI we have this extra "degree of freedom" if you will, in interface gain level. Gonna be using this as a baseline going forward!
nice but, how about amplitube 5?
@@MrMusicopath I have a couple of other videos about amplitube, it’s a bit complicated
hey man, do you know the values for Positive Grid plugins, or the values for Amplitube / Tonex plugins?
ToneX, there is no set value - it depends on the level of the reamp chain of whoever made the model.
No idea for Positive Grid, I’ve emailed them though.
With Amplitube/IK in general, their stuff seems all over the place and it’s hard to get a meaningful answer from them. Maybe with amplitube 6…
@@eds4754 I see... thanks for the response, and the material you provided! All the best...
It's not clear how to proceed once you've found the max input level. If my product isn't listed in your spreadsheet, then what? What is the formula to calculate the actual input level to use?
once you know the headroom, use the table to adjust accordingly for each plugin. If your headroom is 14dBu and the plugin you are using is 12, you need to boost 2dB. If your headroom is 5dBu you’d cut 7dB.
If you know the amount of headroom you can work it out for each plugin, I can’t put every single interface ever made on the table because the list would be enormous. You just add or subtract the difference
does anyone know what values are used by Kuassa plugins? thanks
I don’t, worth emailing them and asking!
I got a reply, its 1Vp=0dBFS. I added it to the table
@@eds4754Amazing! I'll be sure to test out these settings. Thank you for all the valuable work that you do!
I see you looking up the levels for the interfaces, and you describe how to test others not listed, but how do we get the levels for other sims?
Thank you for sharing this and all the answers in comments you've already provided.
The only way is to ask the developer and hope they give you an appropriate answer.
There is always an optimal level, but often the customer service rep isn’t the developer and doesn’t always understand the question. So it can take some persistence to get through to the right person to get an accurate answer.
Sometimes even the developer doesn’t know what the optimal level is - this is the case for Audio Assault. Just because they don’t know what the values, there will still be a specific input level that will be most like the real amp.
About Aurora plugin
Our plugins maintain a consistent audio interface gain structure across different devices:
When a sine waveform with 1 V peak amplitude is fed into the analog domain, it equates to 0.707 volts RMS or -0.79 dBu. In the digital domain, this signal corresponds to -13 dBFS.
To align your interface with our recommended gain settings, you can calibrate it by inputting a sine waveform with 1 V peak amplitude (0.707 volts RMS or -0.79 dBu) and adjusting the interface gain until the DAW peak meter displays -13 dBFS. Please note that different interfaces may yield slightly different results due to their internal circuitry.
Here are some examples of the corresponding dBFS levels when feeding a sine waveform with 1 V peak amplitude into various interfaces:
UAD Apollo x6: -13 dBFS
UAD Apollo Twin: -12.9 dBFS
Quad Cortex: -15.1 dBFS (with 1M impedance) Input level at 0 on QC.
Focusrite Scarlett: -13.1 dBFS
Focusrite Clarett: -14.6 dBFS
Apogee Duet: -14.5 dBFS
Additionally, if you're using a guitar, you can achieve this calibration by connecting it to the Hi-Z input of a UAD interface with the gain set to minimum. If your interface has a Hi-Z input, leaving the gain at its default (minimum) setting should suffice. Adjust the input gain only if necessary, such as when using a guitar with lower output level, ensuring it's increased enough to avoid clipping while maintaining optimal signal quality.
This is word for word what Neural DSP told me 😂 - I guess they use similar levels and copy and pasted it?
i have id4 mk2, and using neural plugins.
i set my gain knob on the id4 to 0, now i should boost the input gain on the plugin by 2.5 db according to the setting you posted?
thank you very much for the help! you have a new SUB!
iD4 mk2, I believe you can just leave gain at 0 on the interface and 0 in NDSP and you’re all set
Isn't applying gain after my interface also applying gain to the noise floor and giving me more noise? I don't know much about DSP, but this sounds kinda wrong.
The noise floor of the interface and preamp is WAY lower than the noise you’ll get through your pickups and from other things in the chain. Ive measured the background noise across different gain settings and there is no benefit to increasing the preamp gain on the interface.
Measure it yourself - plug a guitar in, turn the volume on the guitar up so signal passes from the pickups to the DAW. Record at different gain levels, normalise. The noisefloor of the interface won’t be a factor
I have Focusrite Solo Gen2. Is 12.5 DB referring to the LINE input with the INSTRUMENT button pressed?
Instrument input is 13dBu for you when gain is 0.
@@eds4754 Oh thank you, this answers my question but I got a bit confused by 13dbu.
My interface is gen3, so it is 12.5 on 0 gain.
Hi again!
Regarding Kuassa, Input Level Table says 16.8 (motu m4) but Amplifikation 360 only goes up to 10, what is wrong?
@@georgeg4136 You can add more level with a plugin before Kuassa, or if your interface has stepped gain you can add it there to get to 16.8. They’ve designed their plugins with the expectation that people are recording very loud signals
@@eds4754 Thanks !
I'm almost but not quite sure I understand...... so we set our plugin to the reference level they used making it and then we set our interface to the minimum possible gain, and that should give us a difference which is equal to the manufacturer maximum gain amount?
Thank you
yep. First you set gain to 0, and check what your own interface specs are. Now you know the headroom of your own input chain.
2nd step is adjusting to match the headroom of whatever plugin you are using. As everyone is using different gear and levels, and the plugin has no way of telling, the adjustment is different for everyone. So this is why it’s good to know specific values, otherwise all you can do is guess
Hi, I'm using a Boss GT-10 as an interface with neural DSP plugins, what value do I have to set? I can't find the input level value, thanks
no idea for the GT-10, I would recommend measuring with a sine wave and measuring the voltage with a multimeter and dBFS level in the DAW to work it out
@@eds4754 thanks , any video help me
Behringer U-PHORIA UM2 How much should I put it for neural dsp? 😢😢
@@andresespinoza6967 check in the comments here
Idk if im not too late but UM2 is pretty much same as mine UMC22 from what was written in the manual so input level is +2dbU so for Neural it is about -10.2 dB
Got this answer for Two Notes Genome, but I don't know if it's very useful:
Having the general level of your guitar input around -12dB while peaking at -3dB max is ideal. The good range is having your signal between -18 and -6dB on GENOME then you can turn the Gain knob to adapt to the amount of gain you want by ear. Please bear in mind that the same dB value read on the VU meter can change dramatically between two guitars/pickup! Let us know if you have any further questions!
yeah, it’s a rubbish answer for accuracy unfortunately. I think it’s best to ask them what dBFS level a 1V peak sine wave should appear as, and then there’s no ambiguity
@@eds4754 i can’t formulate the exact question because English is not my first language, can you just write it exactly and I will copy/paste it and send to them
Huge difference. Thank you.
Came here is John Cordy channel.
I have never got amp sims to sound how I thought they should sound after seeing reviews on UA-cam
I will be watching this video and trying what you suggest.
Thanks
Do you have a recommended input volume setting for the neural amp modeller with the focusrite?
With NAM and ToneX it all depends on the person who has made the captures, everyone has totally different interfaces/reamp boxes/DI’s so they all vary a lot and most people aren’t totally sure. I know Petr Canov’s models are made for 5dBu inputs, so with a focusrite you’d need to boost by 7dB. But everyone’s will vary, the only way to know for sure is to ask the person who reamped the training file.
@@eds4754 ah I see. Thanks. Forgive me, but why would I need to boost by 7dB in that case? I'm just trying to understand the method a bit better. Thanks
@@some_g333 Sure! The Kemper DI (at default settings) has a maximum input level of 5dBu. This means if you record DI’s with a kemper, they would be 7dB louder than if you use a 12dBu input (like a focusrite).
Because it’s recording a relatively loud DI, to have a signal back at unity for the capture/reamp part of the process, the signal needs less boosting than a 12dBu input would. Therefore a capture made with a kemper with default settings will sound 7dB undergained when using a 12dBu input.
I believe a Quad Cortex is set up for 9.5dBu max input, and I think Fractal is 14dBu (I need to double check, but I know it has more headroom).
Hope that makes sense!
@@eds4754 I see. Thanks for the explanation
Thanks for the valuable info, Ed! We appreciate all the work.
I tried to set up my interface (2i2 3rd gen) and amp sim (S-Gear 3) the way you suggested and I noticed that although the driven tones sound great, the clean tones sound way too quiet. I've had cases where I had to turn all volume knobs all the way up (master knob on the amp + output gain on the plugin itself) and it was still too quiet -- I don't feel that that's the way the manufacturer expected me to use it. Have you also encountered this issue? And any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?
I’m not sure as I don’t use S-Gear and it could be caused any number of things (including working as expected). It’s best to follow these values as a starting point and adjust to what you like from there - it may be boosting the input a bit works well for some tones. Cleaner tones are typically a lot more dynamic and it can be expected to have quite wide ranging levels.
Thank you for interesting information. Little question, what if i use Countryman 85 with my Motu m2. How can i calculate input lvl with it?
you can either measure using a multimeter and sine wave, by measuring the analog voltage of the sine wave and then seeing what dBFS level it produces.
or you can run a sine wave into the MOTU instrument input, note the level, then run it into the DI box, and compare the difference in level. If the MOTU is 16dBu of headroom and produces a signal of -10dBFS, and the Country man produces a signal that is -8dBFS from the same sine wave, then the DI would be 14dBu.
I have videos that show how to do both of these approaches.
@@eds4754 Thank you sir!
So whatever the manual to my input says is "max input level" is what I set my Interface too? This is good information and I'm trying to understand it (I'm a bit slow). Thanks for providing!
@@ByTheSpirit84 no not quite, set your preamp gain to minimum and use the value from your manual to see the input gain amount to use in the spreadsheet
@@eds4754 I see, thank you for the clarification
I'm a little bit confused - I have a Motu M4 and have the Kuassa Clarent amp sim. I turned my input gain all the way down on my interface then used a trim plugin and set it to +16.8 dB like the spreadsheet says but it made the plugin clip like crazy. Am I missing something? Adding 16.8 dB seems like a ton.
@@MayonnaiseOreo yep, that’s absolutely fine. Same goes for other plugins that use values around 0dBu like Softube, Amplitube, Audiority etc. Ignore the clip lights
@@eds4754 Thanks!
Can someone explain this in plain English?
I have a SSL2+, Maximum Input Level = +15 dBu
I record guitar with the GAIN knob at 0 directly.
The recording peaks at -16(dB I think?) in Logic Pro X.
How should I adjust Gain going into an amp sim so it sounds optimal?
It depends which amp sim you are using. Use the spreadsheet in the link to see how much you need to adjust for various sims.
Well for example, for Neural DSP, the recommended plugin input gain for the SSL2+ in your table is 5.5(dBu?).
What would I do in this instance?
I'm quite confused about it all and think taking this as an example might help others as well.@@eds4754
Well for example, for Neural DSP, the recommended plugin input gain for the SSL2+ in your table is 5.5(dBu?).
What would I do in this instance?
I'm quite confused about it all and think taking this as an example might help others as well. @eds4754 @@eds4754
@@austinmurphy3933 Not really sure how it can be explained any better, it’s really simple.
According to my table, SSL2+ is 15dBu. NDSP is 12.2dBu. That means you set your interface gain to 0 and NDSP to +2.8dB (the value for SSL in the NDSP column in the table). That’s it.
The figure I see in the pink/purple in your table for column Neural DSP, row SSL2+ is 5.5 though?@@eds4754
Thank you for this. I wonder if, instead of trying to cover all the possible interface/software combinations, there could be a table listing just interface input levels (maybe at .5dB intervals) v. plugin inout levels. That was I could find my AXE I/O inout level in its specs ("Input level, min gain: 0 dBFS is obtained with a +14 dBu signal at the TS input") and look up the 14 dBu line on the spreadsheet to find the appropriate input level for the plugin. But this is great stuff!
Yeah, I mean, if your value matched one in the table just use those values. Or if it’s between you can adjust accordingly.
The information is the same either way
Yeah, that’s what I’m doing with the AXE I/O. Thanks again for doing all the work of hounding the plugin manufacturers!