Electric Motorcycles Failed? with Ryan F9 of
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Will they ever make an Electric Motorcycle worth buying? FortNine's Ryan F9 joined Zack and Spurg on Highside/Lowside to discuss the current state of Electric Motorcycles.
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The best motorcycles are 2 strokes I could care less if people hit power band while climbing a hill and got severely injured. 4 strokes are for woman and overly sheltered boyscout type men.
Add an automatic CVT, like the Enviolo hubs/gearboxes, but beefed up just a bit for more torque - turns out you really don't need that much torque overall if it's always adjusting itself to do what you want at optimal gearing. You still get the satisfaction of twisting the wrist without having to deal with a clutch; can modulate your power curves and traction settings through FW and scroll through ride profiles at the push of a button...what's not to love?
You guys missed that EVs are serious off-road environmental fire hazards. Seriously one bad drop, fire starts and you'll need the Coast Guard to put it out.
@@dct124 If you're referring to thermal runaway in the battery, actually you can't put it out because the exothermic reaction creates its own oxygen gas.
So it just burns, ferociously hotter than a combustion fire, until there is no more fuel left. Fuel = bike.
Take an EPIRB or sat-phone.
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars Yeah that's what I'm talking about. Some fire experts are trying to find a solution but haven't yet.
90% of motorcyclists are enthusiasts.
30% of car drivers are enthusiasts.
That's it
Mostly accurate for western countries, not so accurate for the rest of the world.
@@op55no155 True, but in the context of the target market for E-motorcycles...
@@FD1991 Taiwan says hello
@@FD1991 Well, that’s the stupid business decision these companies made. We need electric scooters, step-throughs, maxi scooters, maybe an NC750X clone, or even an actual electric NC750 variant. Not this “performance” bike nonsense. I mean, half the reason I ride my 1000cc V-twin is its sound.
As pure motorcycle enthusiasts, you're missing the likeliest cause for the poor uptake on electric motorcycles. They're losing out to speed limited escooters and ebikes. Neither require tests, licenses, insurance, or much money. Look around Toronto streets and you'll see plenty of food delivery drivers using the slower ebikes, rather than full motorcycles. Given city speed limits of 50 kph and their ability to wind past backed up traffic, they are just as quick to their destination. Economically, it makes perfect sense for these guys. Even myself, I electrified an old utility bike and use that to get around town. With 4 months in storage during winter here in Toronto, an ebike is easier to put away. Electric motorcycles are sexy, but electric bicycles are practical.
Came here to write something similar. Pedelecs and e-scooters are electric motorbikes and they are extremely popular.
Ebike seals can't handle water, can emotorcycles, do you know?
And they're fun when you don't convert an old beat up bike but buy a proper mid engine mountain bike. Seriously, when I have the choice of getting hassled by police while riding my Ninja or just having a blast with the electric KTM MTB in the woods - the bike always wins. Only downside is it being limited to 25 kph because of Europe. I wish it was 60.
It baffles me how many of the E bike delivery guys have no lights at night. I'd say 50%
@@grendelkeep Is your Ninja street legal?
Zero has features locked behind a paywall. Never EVER will I even consider giving them a single cent until that stops.
Pay 600 for a fast charge feature that comes installed from the factory, but you're just not allowed to use it? Is that what we want?
The BMW model. Fvck that noise.
I feel absolutely the same way, but I thought they recently stopped doing that.
@@BlakeBarrett They did. But it's all the uninformed ever want to talk about, because they can't provide a proper argument.
@@BlakeBarrett. If they have stopped doing it then they have stopped “for now”. Their intent is clear and they have only backed off for the moment because the optics of it affect too many potential customers. Once those customers start to just accept it all as inevitable they will reinstate it again.
Plus, you've already bought and paid for it.
Ryan is such a reasonable, sensible dude. I don’t even ride motorcycles, but I enjoy his content just because he’s enjoyable to listen to.
The lowly eScooter is the most produced and sold vehicle in the world. So it's quite clear that a motorcycle in a very specific version has already filled the urban landscape.
This 100%. Electric motorcycles only make sense in a city environment. And e-scooters, small e-bikes, and especially electric unicycles already dominate this space. If you can learn to ride an electric unicycle you can get 100 mile range, 50mph top speeds, and roll it into most offices / shops. The only thing an electric motorcycle offers is the ability to take short highway stints during your commute.
@@reks95lol finding EUC riders in this comment section, I shouldn't be surprised.
Would Begode make a K6 but in bike form and with more normale Design, they could flood the MC and E-Bike Market with that thing. 168v 150kmh bike/enduro/motorcycle with 5000wh, and super simple leight weight construction, and silent hub motors, would be the perfect city racer
@@reks95 Most people can't ride an electric unicycle because they give up almost immediately upon stepping on them. And most motorcyclists (perhaps their age has something to do with this) are implacably hostile towards electric unicycles. I find most motorcyclists to be strangely anti-urban ie they live there and have a garage to put their bikes in. Thus they dismiss anything that isn't "highway capable, long-distance, 400+ pounds, and gasoline-powered".
So electric motorcycles are out, along with any of the smaller "last-mile" forms of 1 and 2 wheeled vehicles. Electric motorcycles are simply not of the city, never mind that the eScooter is hugely popular.
@@langhamp8912 I'd never bother with a unicycle, nor would most people, because they are not useful enough. They are enthusiast toys. I've done family shopping, delivered children to school and daycare everyday, and sped across the city to help a customer in an emergency with the machines I serviced, all on a motorcycle. Nobody on a unicycle is doing anything but posing and getting in the way of traffic, as far as I can tell. Unremarkably, despite living in a big city, almost all of the unicycle riders I witness are downtown near colleges (perhaps their age has something to do with it). I have yet to see one female on a uni, but I have seen a female on a 49cc scooter wearing high-heel pumps. (Try that on a unicycle.)
@@DailyPolemics For sure people are doing food and package delivery on EUC. I agree motorcycles have more capability (passengers and luggage). But it's a trade off. You can park an EUC under your desk, you can take it on a train, you can throw it in a car. The bigger point I'm trying to make here is that electric motorcycles only make sense in a market (urban) that is already being served by smaller, lighter devices. The fact that ICE scooters are so much more popular than ICE motorcycles in urban areas should have told you everything you need to know before you started developing electric motorcycles.
I converted my Honda 2014 CFR250L to electric at the beginning of the year, because I got tired of waiting for the bike I wanted at a price I could afford.. Doing the conversion myself only cost me $6,000.00 and taught me how most everything I'm going to need to repair the bike, not to mention reconnected quite a few brain cells. I went from 23Hp engine to over 30 Hp to the rear wheel. This thing rips, Although I generally ride in Eco mode, ( at 74 I don't need to go that fast). Your right, range is the biggest concern. I did a couple range tests, One on the road to Hana, a road that would make a snake dizzy) average speed of 25 miles a hour getting 70 miles and the other going up Haleakala, a climb of over 8,000 feet and a total distance traveled of 64 miles, traveling at the speed limit. Maximum speed maybe 50 mph. Made it home with a couple bars on my gage. Then like Ryan said I've opened it up to 70, only to watch the bars dissapear faster than my pay check on a Friday night. As far as the sound I've been riding for over 60 years, and wish It'd been electric from the start I might not have to ask my grand kids to repeat what they've said, all the time. Then there's the issue of the clutch and the shifter, do i miss them? hell no , now I have time to pick the bugs outta my teeth, and a free hand to do it. Anyway I did a whole series on the build and tests on UA-cam. If you want to check them out search (Pat Mcguinness, or Mauipat.) Do I wish I had more range? Yes but that's not as critical for me because I live on an Island and can't drive forever, so the bike works really well for me. also as the batteries get better I can upgrade mine. One of the best things is how smooth the power delivery and ride is even with duelsport tires. To sum it up this is the most fun bike I've owned since my Honda Trail 90. Aloha Pat
Just get a decent scooter. Youd buy a lot of petrol for 6k.
@@sugarnads At his age that's not the point. He's in it for the challenge of doing it regardless of the cost.
@@sugarnads Nah, Petrol is getting costlier by the day. Electricity, not so much!
@@vaibhavdlv $6000 worth of petrol at 2.4l per 100 kms.... thats the entire life of the scooter...and some.
@vaibhavdlv where do you think the electricity is coming from? Very few electrical grids are powered by wind and solar.
I have met one motorcyclist with an electric motorcycle. She rode it year round in the city. She loved it for what it is. The bike has very little maintenance and her gas costs per year went from 3k or so down to a few hundred dollars in elecricity costs.
3k?
3k would be avout 24000 miles a year, roughly. So probably a fraction of that.
@@JoshuaTootellI ride 30k annually.
@@JoshuaTootell yeah, I had it in my head as 12k miles divided by 4$ a gallon. So that was wrong.
@@earthwormandruw Maybe 500 total on ⚡ costs. I remember being surprised
I really like mine.
Ive put 55k miles on my zero in less than 4 years going back and forth to work.
For longer ranges, forget about it. I have another bike for that.
But grinding out daily commute miles.. love love love it. That acceleration ❤
Horse for courses. Why wouldn't you use an Electric bike for a known commute?
Zero's (and I'm sure other brands') 'pay to play' bullsht where you have features already available ON the bike, that you have to 'unlock' is beyond aggravating and one of the main reasons I didn't buy one as a 2nd bike/electric moto experiment experience... they're already fighting an uphill battle to enter the market. Garbage sales tactics like this are NOT. Helping.
@@roc20621 tbf, these tactics have also been used in the non electric bike market, look at KTM
@@roc20621 they axed that idea in short order after massive backlash. Just need to explain this to KTM and BMW now.
@@caspianprince and now you're gonna pay more for the extras and the person buying it used won't be able to add that option later on.
@@simulacrae nah, it was just software. Should have been included in the price all along. Zero retrospectively upgraded everyone. (not mine though, which predated it... don't need reverse anyway, bike isnt particularly heavy)
While some manufacturers may still be doing that, Zero is not. There has been enough backlash in the community (see: BMW), that this attempt at money grabbing is but a sore memory.
I have a LiveWire Del Mar. My commute is 14 miles, so range is not an issue even if I take the long way home. It charges in 5 sec - I plug it in and walk in the house. It’s a blast to ride. It looks badass. I don’t want a gas engine. I have an electric car, an electric dirt bike, an electric drill, and now, an electric motorcycle. Dig it.
My ideal use case of an electric motorcycle is in the city but the quickest way to get around my city is a bicycle because of all the lanes and paths…so an electric bicycle makes way more sense and is so much more accessible.
Agreed.
Yes, small city use makes more sense than highway travel for an electric motorcycle.
But small city is still a case of getting all the negatives, none of the positives:
An electric motorcycle has the same insurance, registration and parking requirements as an ICE vehicle.
An electrically assisted bicycle can (with a few exceptions) use bike lanes and bike racks with no required insurance or registration.
And an apartment dweller can carry the bicycle inside for charging and theft prevention.
Also Sondors is in receivership There's no ordering a Metacycle any more.
I'm disappointed in the overall "why don't you guys get it" tone of the video.
My ride to work takes 20 minutes on an ebike, which is a limited power EU legal bike. On my Tiger 900 the ride takes 10 minutes but I spend all day in motorcycle kit or I spend 10 minutes either end changing kit. My ebike costs pennies in fuel, chains and tyres. My Tiger costs euros/ pounds/ dollars in fuel, chains, tyres and servicing. My mild cardio commute is an advantage. So my ebike is my ride of choice for my commute.
@@TheIdlesurfer I live on one side of D.C. and work on the other. On my CB1100 it takes 30-40 minutes to go 6 miles to work during rush hour and the same amount of time or slightly less on a bicycle or e-bike! It’s just so much more comfortable and eco friendly ‘cause I’m actually moving instead of idling in traffic the whole time. Plus bicycles are easier to lane filter on narrow/traffic heavy streets
@@Crosmyn exactly! What’s interesting too is that some cities are even offering incentives for residents to purchase and maintain e-bikes which makes it even easier to get a lot of people on versatile, efficient, 2 wheelers. Honestly, it’d be pretty dope to see American cities get to European levels of bike infrastructure. My one drawback post pandemic where I think an e-motorcycle would be better is that I feel much more vulnerable on a bicycle rather than a motorcycle riding near car traffic. I’m generalizing but a lot of car commuters in my area have become significantly more aggressive since returning to in person work and on a moto I definitely feel more visible.
@@BigProllum I'm a former London motorcycle courier and I "lane split" or in the Queen's English (not quite used to King Prince Charles just yet) filter in a way which might be regarded as aggressive or illegal in US states, but even as a confident and experienced motorcyclist the fear factor on a pedal cycle with the pricks in cars is a lot higher than the motorbike. If I want to make progress in London, I'm happier on the motorbike. On rural roads, same. I don't know if American drivers are considerate of pedal cyclists. My experience of Europe, in France, Holland, Finland and Germany is car drivers are really good. England, less so.
Zero is a great commuter bike. It just comes down to what the rider wants. For me it was the perfect solution for a specific problem, getting the 15 miles from my house to the train 5 days week with no parking issues in all weather conditions.
Where do you store your helmet/gear when you get to the train station?
@@yuvalw7543, When I first started commuting, they had lockers that you paid monthly for but they pulled them out when they remodeled the station. Now I take mine with me but another rider at my station added hard cases to his and put his gear in there.
I been using ZeroSR for almost 4years and is the best commuter/around town bike I have ever used, even compared to scooters. I sold my first one cause couldn't take it on longer rides but after a week regretted it and got another.
Marc Travels he travels from Germany to New Zealand on a Zero motorcycle. I don't think anyone has ever traveled that far, he is now in Nepal
If he did that on a Honda CBX people might be interested in his trip.
@@skipintroux4444 He got more followers and views after switching to electric, so no.
@@skipintroux4444 222,000 people are interested as it is .... (and I've got a CB500X, as it happens! 😀)
Great channel and immensely interesting. Marc is a hero and hell of a nice guy. He's replied to a few of my statements and questions so I'm a dedicated subscriber.
@@lrowlands53 Yes, I don't like electric motorcycles, but Mark's story is really good
Range and slow recharge time is the issue
For me is longevity my bike are +10 years old and totaly fine. How about battery in 10 years and cost of it. Also that i can keep fixxing for low price and not brick everything because serial parts after one fell
I seen this on what I remember is a Kawasaki is replaceable battery pack so swap a your low battery for fully charged battery pack so it take its time to charge the battery at the location.
and WEIGHT. 100 miles and heavy? NOOOO thank you
You forgot super heavy battery, a gas bike weight 180-200kg, an eletric 250-300
@@lequan8766For a street bike, yes. For a dirt bike, no. My Surron Ultra Bee is 200lbs and 40HP, lighter than most other Enduro bikes at my local hare scramble races.
Bought a Zero S in 2017 , MSRP $14k, then upgraded it with the quick charger in 2020 for +$3k more. I did a regular commute from Burbank CA to Irvine (50 mi) for years, I would get to my destination (one way) with 30% battery left the first 4 years. When the traffic was really bad (which it regularly is in LA) I'd make it almost with 50% battery left. If I needed to really milk the battery I would just tell the GPS to ignore highways. It doubled the travel time but also literally doubled my range. I learned to finesse the shit out of the bike's limitations (abstain from being trigger happy with the throttle, and plan your trips.) I came from a Honda Rebel CMX 450 and a Ducati Monster 620 before, and the idea of all electric (plus a new job and raise) appealed to me, on top of the fact that I lived in an apartment now so wrenching and oil leaks just wasn't ideal. The bike was 50k miles in as of January and the range isn't what it used to be, on top of having a few close calls being stranded with a dead battery, so I decided to get my dream bike - a 2023 BMW R Nine T in February, and booooooy what a change lol. I'd forgotten how fun shifting was, and the sound! My buddies asked if I'd ever get another electric, and honestly yah, I would, probably a dirtbike - the FX or something similar for weekend riding. Other than that I found that the charging infrastructure was a major hurdle. I'd mastered the art of finding charge stations through apps but often times they were locked up behind apartment complexes that just didn't want to share with the public, or were straight up malfunctioning. It came down to bookmarking the choice chargepoints that were public, functioning, and next to a Dennys or Starbucks I could chill at. I'd vouch for the vehicles "being there" myself - the charging infrastructure not so much. I struggled with whether or not to sell the Zero but realistically now that it's paid off, it isn't that expensive to insure and register, and it still gets about 60 mi range. It starts, EVERY time lol, and for cruising around town or even going downtown and back for the occasional hangout with friends it absolutely is unbeatable in terms of how easy it is to lane split and doesn't need gas. I'm quite happy to have both options available tbh. If I had to choose just one though I'm keeping the R Nine T, but that's also because I simply don't have to commute as much as I did before covid now that I can work from home. The 50k mi I put on the zero absolutely saved me time and gas money, but if you're not riding that much then its expensive AF choice. Ohhh, and good luck trying to trade-in at dealerships, they're having trouble moving the electrics they have in stock to begin with. The only people interested in electric bikes are previous electric bike owners, so you're left with selling privately.
i use a talaria sting r mx4 as a dirtbike. for the money it's great lasts 4-6 hours of trailriding
Might want to work out how much extra you were spending on dennys or starbucks before saying it was saving you much. Also you might want to factor depreciation into it. There are some situations where an electric can save you money but they are extremely rare once you take everything into account - especially if you add in your hourly rate while charging. I mean you wouldn't go to work for free, would you?
@@siraff4461 Plus, if you are concerned about money spent on gas, if you buy a 14,000 electric motorcycle, how much money do you save on gas as compared to spending 7,000 on a Honda Rebel 500 and getting 65 mpg? Plus, like you said, the time wasted in Dennys and the extra money spent on food or coffee while waiting ... maybe you still save a little.... but I don't think it's worth the hassle.
Any 150cc scooter will perform AND be cheaper
My V-Strom has double the range out of the box. That's bad enough, but they also sell fuel bladders to extend that range. An electric bike will never compete with ice for non city applications until we have something like a RTG. The real target for electric bikes is the scooters, the cafe racers, the 250-500cc street bikes that have never used a whole tank of fuel in 1 day.
I've done 4 tank days on my V-Strom. Adding 30-60 min or more to each fuel stop would add extra days to my trip. My boss isn't giving me extra days off because I bought the wrong bike.
I'd absolutely buy an electric for daily use... IF it was priced the same as my V-Strom. From what I've seen they're price matched to HD... No one willing to ride a Harley is buying a quiet, economical, environmentally friendly, "girly", bike. Range anxiety isn't even a factor, 90% of HD owners don't do 100 miles in a week, let alone a single ride.
Electric bikes need to be less than 10k Canadian, probably less than 5k CAD, because that's the price point of the bikes they have a valid chance of competing against.
For "range anxiety" it's very easy to carry extra fuel/petrol. NOT so with electric motorcycles.
Also, dealer support is not there yet - especially in more rural areas away from major metropolitan areas.. It will get there but will take time.
Ye. I watched The Long Way Up and that was range anxiety to the max, they couldn't even charge the things when it got cold.
Awesome street machines, but you can't strap down a can of electric to the back and ride 300 miles carefree like a normal bike.
Also many people who own a bike don't have proper parking, let alone a place to charge it. Many have to park them at the side of the road, in bike racks or whatever is ignored by the police. An electric bike only really makes sense when you have your own garage.
@@mickenoss most riders will NEVER do a ride like they did, thus lowering the range anxiety over an very unlikely event.
@@mickenoss Harley really dropped the ball on that one. It would have been a great opportunity for them to ensure the feasibility of their new bike, but instead of putting together a support team they asked a handful of their employees to volunteer their time.
@@taylorhickman84 livewire is a decent product in my opinion, i wouldnt buy it but it gets unness hate, certainly would prefer that, than a lot of harleys
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alta was the first one that is feasible and really cool bike, If I recall collectly harley put them into liquidation because of competition.
Ryan is an amazing communicator, on the first question you bring tons of content. Great to listen to.
I'm surprised that "sound" wasn't mentioned as a barrier. For me (and many other motorcyclists I'm guessing) riding is a very visceral experience. The sound of the engine/airbox/exhaust is integral to the experience for me.
I hear this argument a lot and it's odd to me because I have the opposite desire. I love that there isn't this vibrating loud engine ruining the serene experience you get from riding electric. The power delivery is so instant and way more responsive.
I've been riding 20 years, gas and electric give very different riding experiences. I think it's time to stop comparing the two. Maybe be more open minded?
@@earthwormandruw I’m completely open minded to new experiences and to greener forms of transport. I’m just saying that a lot of people enjoy the aural aspect of riding a bike and I imagine that is a barrier for some. If I was using my bike as a regular form of commuting transport and therefore it was more of a tool for getting from a to b, then I maybe would prefer an electric bike.
@@BulletBeena Riding electric for me has absolutely nothing to do with being "greener"
@@BulletBeena For me this is honestly the biggest thing, I also like to ride long distance, so gasoline fillups are more convenient, and more accessible in the boonies. In cars I don't mind electric since they are tools to get from a to be, but bikes aren't really that, and in the western world, might never be that
I absolutely love my electric dirt bike is 100% silent. I actually get to enjoy nature while riding, unless there is some annoying punk with open pipes revving his engine for no reason near me.
I owned an Energica Eva Ribelle, which was (and perhaps still is?) the fastest electric motorcycle with the longest range as well with a 22.5KwH battery.
I got rid of it for 3 main reasons:
1. The range still wasn’t enough. I got about 150mi in the city and 100 on the highway.
2. Power dropped off hard once below 65% battery. And with the limited range, I’d be from 100% to 65% in less than 45 minutes of riding most of the time.
3. Dealer network, or lackthereof. My closest dealer that could work on the bike was an ultra small building with like 3 employees located an hour and a half away. And I live in the densely populated Southern California, where this type of issue is generally quite rare.
And keep in mind, this is a $23k bike we’re talking about. That’s a *big* price tag for a bike with the above-stated issues, that no one even knows what it is. Let alone can actually work on.
I think it's mainly in the distance traveled against the time it takes to charge. Add that to them costing as much as top of the line ICE motorcycles and your target audience is people that buy new litrebikes, Harley's of 40k and adventure folks who want to ride way further, probably. These are not the people that generally would choose the electric over their GS or Bagger for various reasons.
Then there's also the fact that, for most riders, motorcycles are a hobby vehicle, so they don't want to spend that much money for a motorcycle that, to fill it up, they need a charging station and 30-40 minutes, while the friends they're riding with are ready to go again after 5-10 minutes.
The best use case right now in my view is commuting to and from work, where you're able to charge while you're at the office or at home.
Edit: to add, many electric cars are company cars, which isn't the case with most motorcycles. It's a lot less fun to be an early adopter when it comes out of your own pocket.
Awwwww little guy are you really poor? Maybe try harder in life?
I bought mine with the money saved on my EV car.
That's something people don't see. ICE cars are money pits.
@@hank4917 lmao, what? Never said I was poor. I just gave my thought on why I think electric motorcycles haven't taken off as well as thr cars have.
@@Electric_camper yeah, I get that. But a big upfront investment isn't something that's viable for everyone. Add to that the rest of what I named in my comment and I understand why people are hesitant to get one. Even if the cost of maintenance etc. is way lower.
@@lexievv well there are still ICE sold that are way more expensive 🤷
And most extra prices are within a recoup time of 2-3 years. Some EV are even more cheap than many ICE, being bought.
The upside on EV bikes is that because off the slow adaption you get dirt cheap offerings on them. I bought mines with less than 4K km for half price.
Matter of choices in the first place.
"Long Way Up" was a disaster. Even with millions of dollars and getting Rivian to pre-stage chargers on the route, they still wound up stranded and using a mobile diesel generator to charge, and went many hundreds of miles in a converted bus hauling the bikes.
I agree, but the bus was a safety concern in gang controlled area, not so they save electricity
@@Schaden81 I think both probably. But also, there were other routes through there. Other motorcyclists including UA-camrs go through there without issue. In some ways they were victims of their own hype machine - they advertised exactly where they were on the trip all the time and you saw people meeting them and putting out "welcome Long Way Crew" signs. The smart, famous UA-camrs don't announce their routes publicly and post updates and videos a month after they've been through.
@@John_Ridley the levels of fame and fortune are probably major factors as well
I was shocked when they talked about Harley having a team employees volunteer their time after hours, to get the bikes ready in time. It's almost as if someone in Harley didn't want the project to be successful.
@@taylorhickman84 that's because they were still pre-production bikes at that time, plus modifications being done to make them more suited to the terrain and comfort for the mileage. The trucks were pre-production as well. I guess HD didn't want to invest the time, but the staff still wanted to, so they donated the time.
As someone who has designed an EV charging system (which has been in use for years), I can tell you that the main issues are:
1. Batteries require many ancillary systems, very expensive and heavy ones, for the battery to function even as poorly as the best car batteries do: They'd require powerful liquid cooling and powerful heating to perform properly. And to be efficient they'd need to have heat pumps like the better cars do. No way they can fit those on bikes. They can't typically even afford/fit proper DC charging systems!
2. The bigger the battery is, the better. Small batteries have incredibly much worse performance, they're more vulnerable, etc. (And the ancillary systems weigh much more in relation to a small battery than they do compared to a huge one. Go small enough and the cooling system, charger and control electronics weigh more than the battery itself!)
Batteries need very powerful cooling and heating systems, which motorcycles can't really carry or they'd get too big, heavy and expensive. To be usable for normal people they require powerful charging systems which are too expensive, heavy and big for bikes...and their batteries being so small charging speed is even more difficult (the bigger a battery is, the better they can handle fast charging).
can you explain how my SR/F works then? Which weighs the same as a normal bike, is smaller than a normal bike, has no cooling or heating system but I ride it all year round, and is at least twice as efficient as my Ionic 5? (Granted it's expensive but I knew that when I bought it)
as someone that converted a 80s Fantic junior Trail to a 15kw, 1,5kwh e bike, before simular surons became popular, i think you are not right. The Batteries dont overheat, the motor doesnt overheat, they dont even get warm, i dont need liquid cooling, it has the range you expect out of 1,5kwh etc. The Charging system doesnt need to sit in the bike Are you really honest about being a charging system designer?
Aaah. That makes sense. I recently visited Shanghai briefly, and there's Electric Vespa style Scooters everywhere, but their charging infrastructure consisted of regular power points everywhere rather than any fast chargers. It takes 4-6 hours to charge them, but everyone does it while they're at work. The city centre streets are dotted with power points like my home city used to have parking meters. I thought it was weirdish - But I'm guessing they're using cheap batteries that, while they can't charge fast, or last as long, they also don't have to worry about heating and cooling issues. And no traffic in central Shanghai is moving so fast a little electric Chinese Vespa can't keep up. And they've all got their own chargers, but there's no crime on that because you can't go anywhere where you're not on a camera.
@@caspianprince It works poorly, with low power output, incredibly slow charging, high weight per kWh, highly vulnerable to damage, and with massive losses at non-optimal ambient temperature (and even worse charging speed).
@@pistonburner6448 again I'm asking ... how do you explain my SR/F, which exhibits none of these issues to any significant degree? Though I do lose about 1% range per degree C under 20, this doesn't bother me much because I'm not going to do 100 miles when it's freezing. I have a car :)
I was CRO for Alta, and I agree with a bunch of your observations. Especially energy density. Make sure your conversation recognizes the new fuzzy line between electric bicycle and electric motos
I recently took a 4000 km trip through Norway. Every other car you see on the road is electric. I did not encounter a *single* electric motorcycle.
Yes they make sense for a local runabout, but so does a subway. So does an e-bike. So does my regular motorbike. If going great distances on an electric bike is still seen as some difficult achievement rather than a mundane experience, riders will stick to bikes that won't have that added complexity, at least for long-distance touring.
Having a cheap, light, second bike for short trips is reasonable, but right now, these bikes are incredibly expensive for what they can do. If I need to have two motorbikes anyway, why would I buy a more expensive one for local rides? My (lightly used) XSR-900 was half the price of a Zero DRS, and weighs 50kg less. I simply see zero benefit in getting an electric motorbike.
What would convince me otherwise, is an electric motorbike that can replace my XSR900. Something that weighs less than 250kg, can go 200 kilometers on a charge at highway speeds, and can use fast-chargers to fill up in at most half an hour or so. But battery technology simply isn't there yet, and won't be for quite some time.
The main question is: Why an EV?
I can tell you the answer is never rational or truthful.
Basically we need Honda to make the modern equivalent of the Super Cub, but electric - cheap electric transport for the masses, with just enough performance to keep up with traffic, and preferably a removable battery.
You can get an electric scooter or moped for getting around the city, and those do make sense - NIU, Horwin, Segway E125S, etc. They get your ass from A to B in a city, quetly, cleanly, and cheap
@@vladimirakopyan4088 You were right at the start...but then you fell at the last hurdle: NEVER buy those Chinese-made things, most also doubly guilty as they're also from Chinese-owned companies.
There are European e-scooters (I don't know if there are any e-scooters from US companies).
@@AshleyPomeroy right now that just isn't feasible. Maybe someday, but it really boils down to. If it isn't broke why fix it.
Love the subject, love the length of the video. And as a Canadian, love seeing Ryan F9.
My thought on why sales aren’t really there relate to how Zack sees how e-bike should be used and marketed.
He’s right, they make great sense as a city bike, especially with a frunk😉. If that’s all you ever do with your bike and you have the cash to get by the higher buy-in, they’re perfect.
But if you want a week day commuter that will also take you on some weekend road trips, especially if some those trips have some backroads component then you need to purchase a second bike or just get one gas one that can do both.
If your looking for economy, lots of middle weights adventure bikes out there now days that are 30-50% less costly to buy new than that e-bike and plenty capable of doing it all.
That would be my reason to not buy one even if I was interested in the first place.
Where e-bikes shine is in the bicycle market, tons of very affordable ones that are perfect for shorter trips and you can’t deny their popularity with everyone from school kids to seniors now days.
I think this could maybe be the target for the e-motorcycle builders, build the next step up from a simple and affordable e-bicycle, not necessarily another pricey motorcycle.
Remember it was the Honda 50cc SuperCub that brought bikes to the masses, not the CB 750.
Bingo. The existing MC market is being served, not the potential MC market. E-bikes, including those scooter-looking e-bikes, are not equivalent to a proper street-legal MC/scooter. I have an e-bike that I am very happy with, but it could never have replaced the motorcycles I've used for daily commuting and travel.
Many motorcyclists don't care about fuel efficiency/cost saving the same way most car drivers do. They also enjoy the sound and feel of the internal combustion engine, it almost feels alive sometimes. A silent electric bike with linear power delivery, no gears and clutch to manage, just feels so dull, soulless and unappealing.
That said, I try to keep an open mind. I'm sure when brands like Triumph and Ducati start rolling out EVs, it will be time to take notice and give it a test drive. Never say never.
@@igniteflow An open mind against a "dull, soulless and unappealing" bias? Say it isn't so!
I wore a basic skid-lid for most of my many years of urban riding precisely so I could hear what's around me, and feel the breeze, when stopped at lights etc. Contact with the world, not just the noise and heat rising from my machine.
@@DailyPolemics open mind for new releases. Not interested in anything currently available.
Nice cope, kid. Next time just say you can't afford one.
@@igniteflow Well, I don't claim to know everything that's available, so hope still lives (at least once every six months or so). This doesn't feel like the way capitalism is supposed to work. I can afford way way more than I want but can't find anything I actually want. Spoiled perhaps.
Marc Travels channel is currently doing a RTW on a Zero SR, but the trips often become an exercise in stringing extension cords out of windows or begging a restaurant owner to use an outlet, depending of the country he's in. Then there is always the added excitement of "will I blow a fuse if I switch the charger to the faster setting." All doable in the end, but there's not a day that passes without him worrying where and how he'll get his next charge.
to be honest long term trips on a emoto is just not reliable atm. I have 3 batteries and I can ride all day and go about 100km @ 50mph if I put a battery in my backpack top speed about 90mph. long term. trips on always going to go car anyway because dirt bike
It is not a common use case. How many motorists are traveling from europe, through iran, india,...to new zealand ? Basically nobody.
In Europe there are plenty of chargers. AC and DC.
Electric bikes are a cool option, more choices are always better.
Governments forcing companies fo cease making ICE to only make electric bikes is a big problem.
The problem is, that companys didnt invest in sustainable transport, even though the climate change problem has been known since the 80s, so now the government is "forced" to correct hard
i keep shitting in the local aquifer and now the government is forcing me to install a sewer line 👶
Agree. I applaud new adopters. But let’s face it, motorcycles aren’t the real issue nor source of most pollution/problems. Humans have been stripping the planet of its forests. It’s more of a function of the billions of ppl on the planet needing energy & products. While our Western govts preach from a soapbox, they’re scrambling to exploit resources in parts of Africa & South America. There’s way too much hypocrisy. I’ve owned 2 hybrid cars & paid way more for the hybrid technology than I saved on fuel. Both ended with dealers not wanting to work on them. Again, hypocrisy is everywhere. Finally, remember that motorcycles started out as bicycles with engines & grew in size & range. That’s going to need to happen with electric motorcycles. No one is talking about how a heavier bike chews through tires.
The gov’mint ain’t forcin’ anyone to stop makin’ gas motorsickles.
@@mavenmaven4513climate change is the biggest scam of our lifetime..... "Fossil Fuel" is a term made up by oil companies to fake scarcity. Oil is a renewable resource that the earth makes. Look up a cobalt or lithium mine and tell me how environmentally friendly that is? Man-made climate change is only real because governments are manipulating the weather to scare us into Smart meters and electric vehicles, which ALL leads to their true goal.....CONTROL.
My electric bike is great. For commuting. The range limitation makes it unusable for a day out. But I work too much to be bothered with daybouts. So my electric bike is great. Doesn’t wake then run ours when I leave at 5:30 I have much much more situational awareness being able to hear everything else going on around me. And being able to hear the birds chirping as I glide through the forest road is sublime.
I live in Galveston Island and we have hundreds of electric bikes. Not electric motorcycles. We have lots of bike lanes and the seawall to ride on. You don’t need a license, insurance, safety equipment and in reality no real rules to follow except what a regular bicyclist would follow. Why spend big bucks on a Zero or Livewire, when you can throw some panniers on and commute anywhere.
Yep, with bike lanes you don't have the other cars slowing you down like you do on an electric motorcycle, the big benefit of ebikes is getting out of the regular traffic
im sure it works for you, but once you get outside, in more rural areas where biking lanes are non existent and EV chargers are 50+ miles apart, it gets nasty. i have converted bike (right now dual hub motors, each 1kW peak, will deff upgraded to mid motor in future because i live on top of the hill LOL), and it suits me well for those few miles i need to cover when running grocery runs. for everything else, i wouldnt buy anything EV under 20bhp equivalent to ICE, its just dangerous to run around with slow bike on 70 mph roads...
I'm surprised this is even a discussion, its simple.... most motorcyclists are enthusiasts, and riding a motorcycle is an experience. The vibrations of the machine, revmatching when downshifting, timing your upshifts right when opening up that throttle on the road, the smell, the backfiring when easing off the throttle, the smile that goes on your face everytime you go under an overpass or in a tunnel and you rip on the throttle hearing your machine roar. Already I dont have to go on about how garbage the range is on ebikes. The common argument is "theyre great for commuting". I'm sure they are but why would you purchase a vehicle that is so limited? Life changes and maybe you would like to go for a 2-3 hour ride without taking a charge break for an hour. Something like a Suzuki DRZ 400sm is an amazing commuter bike but can still go on the highway all day long. I've ridden an emotorcycle before too at a Zero demo day and this is my feedback of this experience.
Exactly. If it was just about getting from a to b we would take the bus. Motorcycling is an experience as much as a method of transportation.
You hit the nail on the head. Motorcycles are a lifestyle. They're meant for your enjoyment and loud pipes actually do save lives, I've experienced it first hand.
@@ObamaoZedong so have I!
I prefer my electric motorbike because I focus more on the maneuverability and surroundings, which is important considering my mostly urban routes where there's already plenty of noise. I come from having pedaled on two wheels solo since my teenage years so I defend myself through wide area awareness and prediction, never assuming anyone sees or hears me coming.
I am amazed that RevZilla still does not have a single video of the Surron or Stark Varg - definitely the most popular electric bikes right now.
Or a Ryvid
They talked about it briefly a while back. But they are talking about road legal bikes.
@@BummySheep there are road legal versions of Surron Ultra Bee and Storm Bee
@@LaruxoNot in the US yet unfortunately.
This video is reposted from a while ago before they existed. Ryan needs to cover an Energica and also the Stark Varg still. He did a good Surron Ultra Bee video though
It is said that range anxiety is an issue. I think it is THE issue. The majority of people will not accept a product that constantly makes them anxious and uncomfortable every time they use it. People just say F-- No, I’m not going to live like that. The infrastructure additions and battery tech required to fix this, are a long long way off.
When you say "the majority of people" I think what you mean is, "the majority of people who ride motorcycles with 150cc - plus motors".
I don't think range anxiety is as much an issue as charge-time anxiety. I will buy a vehicle suitable for the range I need, but I cannot plug a vehicle in at home, and this is true for millions of people who live in apartment buildings as I do. So, I am looking at standing outside while my wheels charge up, for much longer than a simple pump fill would take.
@@DailyPolemics Well the thing is how you use the time. As the cable is locked during charging and only the initiator can unlock it by turning on the bike or by authentication at the charger, you don't need to stand by and watch the percentage grow. You can use the time for a break, clean the bike, eat something, do you errands; it's almost all about planning. That's from my point of view one main difference to conventional refuling on a gas station.
@@danielbackmann It takes a very orderly life and predictable access to a charger to think of "planning" as the solution to this shortcoming of electric vehicles. Doable by some, possibly, but obviously wouldn't work for many, including me.
The 'electrical issue' for stuff like adventure riding is that you are taking a lot of the adventuring out of the adventure when you have to be that focused on range and charging points. With gasoline it is very easy to stow a few liters here and there just to keep you going those extra miles when the tank is empty. This allows for some playing around that you don't really have with an electric bike. For cities, like grocery shopping, commutes, etc, I think electric is great because there is a level of certainty that the great outside simply doesn't have.
I've had a 2017 Zero SR for the past 5 years (bought it used, saved about $10k of list). It is THE PERFECT commuter bike. So quiet you can hear cars approaching from behind you. So quiet you don't need to wear earplugs. It's so quick, I run it at 70% power. I use 100% regen, which allows me to control both acceleration and deceleration with my right hand. (Rarely do I need to actually use the brakes). It's quick and nimble in urban traffic, especially with no need to shift. It can handle 70mph on short freeway stints. I get about 150 miles of 'in-city' range (going 35-45mph typically). I only need to charge it about once every two weeks. In the 5 years I've owned it, the only maintenance I've had to do is change the brake fluid (once), and I've put on a new set of tires (once). I've not seen a drop of battery degradation, so I'm thinking I'll get another 15-20 years out of the bike.
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Before you chime in, I GET IT, I am a very specific user in that I only use the bike to commute and run around town. MOST people also want their bike to take out on the weekends, or long trips. And the Zero just CAN'T do that. I'm sure battery and charging tech will do nothing but get better with time. I'd say in 15-20 years, all motos will be electric. And that's a good thing....
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WIth all that said, I think the reason emotos aren't taking off is because they can't take the place of 'enthusiasts' needs. I.e. they can't be taken out on the weekends or on long trips. What the emoto brands should be focused on, in the short term, are urban bikes. The one place emotos excell. This would mean more focus on 'storage', to make the bikes more useful in town. A focus on riding on crappy city streets (appropriate tires and suspension). A focus on making riding for a passenger more comfortable and safe. And a focus on rider position that is more comfortable/upright. LESS focus on 0-60 times, lap times, track use, aggressive looks....
I was in a Harley Davidson dealership about a year ago...
I asked a salesman how many of the electric Harley's are have they sold...
ZERO...
A fellow in my town bought one... heavily discounted. He's rolling in cash so it was no "biggy" to him. He's got about a dozen other highly desirable machines in his stable. He likes riding the Livewire around town, but he reckons that once you get it out on the freeway, you've got to come up with a plan real quick.
70 km. at freeway speeds sees the battery in the red.
E- street bikes make sense as urban commuters. In North America at least, there's not a huge markey for pure commuter bikes. Some riders have a bike purely as a recreational vehicle. Going out on the back roads on the weekends (or going from one coffee shop or bar to the next). Many use their bikes for both commuting and recreation and will often compromise for a bike optimized for fun and deal with its shortcomings as a commuter. Especially with how expensive e-bikes are. For the same price you can buy a more powerful, better equipped and better built ICE bike.
Some things you can do to help with your range anxiety.
1. Deep breathing exercises
2. Healthy lifestyle
3. Physical activity
4. Buy more petrol.
5. Rev tf out your bike.
My uncle built an electric MC back in the 70s. The main problem he had, was finding an extension cord, long enough.
I haven't had a car/truck for over twenty years and I'm riding my 19th Harley-Davidson, a LiveWire One. Folks mostly buy or imagine more machine than they need or used, why? Ego? Marketing? Doesn't want to appear stupid or weak?. So, I ride year around in Indiana and in the last five years I have only missed five or so days because of weather. I rarely, like most riders (not all) rarely leave a 20 mile radius. On my EV motorcycle I can go 60 miles to Indianapolis, 40 miles to Dayton, OH, or 50 miles to Cincinnati and recharge in less than 30 minutes and return home after a day of fun and adventures in those cities. We think we need more, but we don't. You know what's fun? I twist the throttle and it goes. Going is fun.
> I rarely, like most riders (not all) rarely leave a 20 mile radius.
I seriously feel bad for you. I'm not leaving the house if it's not further than a hundred mile loop. I suppose Indiana 60 miles away looks just like 20 miles away. Except for the bar hopping crowd, you are very much the exception and not the rule. A normal ride for me is 300 miles and can get as high as 700-1000 miles in a single day, even on naked bikes. One of my bikes has a 110-125 mile safe range and it's the biggest PITA in the stable. All my friends ride the same way.
When I was a kid I made engine noises while pretending to ride one. I am old now but hearing my engine on the bike takes me back in time.
I live in Denver. Just today I got up, had breakfast, and through a leg over my 20 year old Yamaha FZ1. I filled up the tank and headed west and into a twisty set of roads that took me south and eventually up to the top of Pikes Peak. Made it home by 3pm on a single tank of gas 225 miles later.
I make something like this happen at least monthly, sometimes weekly, sometimes twice as many miles, but always keep it to a single day adventure. This just isn’t plausible on an electric machine. And justifying a $25k electric bike as a second in my garage to handle the daily commute to work doesn’t make sense as my trusty FZ is more than up to this task as well.
I’ve had a Zero FXS since 2017. After 30+ motorcycles, it’s the one I keep. I run all my around town errands on it and I have a blast doing it. I have that and a work van. I don’t miss my bikes that are only fun over 100mph or my vintage stunners. I really like my FXS. Drafting a semi doubles or triples my range. I’m not exagerating.
The problem is that they are trying to sell people a product that they never asked for. My old Sporty takes me anywhere I want to go and cost me less than 3 grand.
Why pay more for less?
I bought one back in 2017 for commuting (2017 Zero S). Still have it. Price, reliability, and dealership network was the three biggest factors for me when I debated the purchase. I would say dealership network is what keeps me from considering a newer one. There have been three dealerships within an hour of me in the past 8 years; all 3 dropped the brand. The closest dealership is now over 3 hours away. In contrast there are at 15 dealerships within an hour of me I can take my Kawasaki to. Its hard to trust electric when you don't know if/where you can get them serviced, or how much it will cost when they fail. My Zero had a catastrophic failure after 2 years and if it hadn't been fixed under warranty it would have cost around 7k to fix it.
holy balls it's ryan fortnite f9 himself
Love Ryan F9. I have two street bikes and an electric car in the garage. I can tell you that EV range anxiety is real when you're out on the open road and a complete non-issue in the city.
The difference for me is waiting 10 minutes to fuel up and four plus hours to charge up finding a place to crash for the night where I can charge my vehicle or just find a place to crash for the night. How far do you think you can make it on a charge with a passenger or fully kitted.
I imagine that just destroys your range.
I have an electric bike: super soco tc Max. Bought used (two years old) for $3500 Canadian. Gets me to work and back in my small city. Charged overnight from a regular plug. Works great for what I use it for. My first bike. I love it. Would be super interested to see Ryan check out a super soco tc Max for what it is. Talk to Joule in Vancouver to test drive one - bet they would be down.
When they get a 300 miles range, I might consider one.
But ICE bikes don't have 300 miles range to begin with.
My 1000cc doesnt even get 200 miles per tank.
@@Uriel-Septim. A pointless endeavour, unless you do 300 miles every day. I get 125 out of mine, which is good enough to do a 250 mile day on, after which if I didn't stop my arse would detach itself and beat me to death with the seat.
@@motorpolitan8884 depends on the bike. I only rode a cbr500r, big-ish 17L tank and small engine, if rode sensibly I get 500km without going into reserve. That's over 300 miles. Speeding on the highway though, maybe 250 miles.
@@caspianprince I mostly do touring on mine, 3-7 hrs doing 100-350 miles, I wouldn't mind a second bike/scooter to do daily commuting, but not as my main/touring bike, don`t want to stop to carge every hour doing highway rides, make no sense, on my bike on a full tank of 20L I am doing +250 miles and can get new fuel in less then 5 minuts if needed that make sense, but I guess each to their own.
We need EV bikes WITHOUT batteries. Electric powertrain, with all the advantages of peak torque from zero rpm and a 1000 Hz ESP. But, powered by an IC engine, charging a 1 or 2 kWh battery with a 100C discharge rate or a supercapacitor.
two engines in a single bike? it'd have to be massive
I own a 2020 HD Livewire and see about 120 miles of range. It's still one of the few bikes that support DC fast charging, which means that charge time < drive time for longer trips. I typically use the Harley for spirited driving loops, but have taken advantage of that fast charging when appropriate. The bike is brutally fast and makes me smile. You can be a hooligan and not draw any unwanted attention. Surprise benefit of a powerful EV motorcycle? No heat coming off of the bike when you're sitting in traffic on a hot summer day.
Unfortunately, with most EV motorcycles, charge time > drivetime, because they're limited to Level 2 charging, and typically very slow Level 2 charging downrated compared to a car. With an hour ride on a Livewire S2, you're looking at 2hrs of charge time. Zero motorcycles have a similar problem.
Truth be told, charging speed is more important than outright range. Are you really going to sit on a motorcycle for 300 miles straight? I'd much rather have a lighter machine with a smaller battery that charges in 10-15m vs a heavy machine lugging around a giant battery. 10-15m is a good leg stretch.
I do own a Sur Ron. The bike is an incredible amount of fun. I also have a garage full of gas powered machines. You're allowed to enjoy both EVs and internal combustion engines.
This is really the key point in my opinion. Almost no electric motorbikes can do fast-charging. I rarely ride for more than an hour without taking a break, and if I could keep that up with a 10 minute break every hour, I'd be fine with a 100 miles range. But a Zero DSR with 100 miles range needs 2 hours to recharge at a fast-charger, or 10 hours at a wall outlet. That's just too slow to go a reasonable distance.
@@ShortsWayUp Yep, because that Zero "fast charging" is still Level 2. Verge promises Supercharger support and that could be a game changer.
There is also the issue of charging stations network. There are reliable issues. Many charging stations have no support buildings. For a car it is okay to sit in the car while charging. For a motorcycle having a roof at minimum would be nice. Having an enclosed area to sit would be preferable. That could take many different forms.
@@erniecolussy1705 Charging stations are typically not out in the middle of nowhere. I haven't had any issues leaving a bike at a charger. Charger reliability issues aren't the problem they were even a year ago.
@@detansinn9882
I'm glad to hear about improvements in charging stations reliability.
I know of many charging stations that do not have a roofed area related to the charging stations. Most do have some type of roof near by related to some other business. But usually nowhere to sit. What I am hoping for in the future is enclosed area with seating to sit at while waiting for the charge to complete. Maybe something like a mall food court connection to the charging stations. Like a miniature truck stop or Buc-ees design for a charging station. I'm just being hopeful.
I've had a SR/F for a couple years now and I really love the adventures I've had with it. There's always somewhere you can charge it up. And if you do winding back country roads, the riding will be much more fun than on the highways and the battery'll last forever. (At 60 kph, the range is more than 200 km. At 100 kph, it's less than 100 km.)
Cost is too high. They need to lower the price.
@@SentientSingularity it doesn’t do them any good to build them only to have them sit in a warehouse. They come down on the price then people will overlook the range limits and give them a try.
Mike, you look old. shouldn't you have money?
@@hank4917 I have money. Me buying one bike isn’t going to solve their problem of bikes not selling.
@@hank4917 I'm young and have money.
To quote @MikeNoble - "Cost is too high. They need to lower the price."
@@lifespanofafry1534 I had no problem affording one
1. Range
2. Price
3. Support
4. Batteries
Isn't this HSLS clip from a year ago?
Yes! I was going to make that comment, was really excited for a moment that they'd cornered Ryan for an update on this topic.
Yes, this is a repost.
In fairness, I'm sure Storm Sondors will still let you send him money to not get a motorcycle
A problem isn't just how fast you can drain a battery, but how long it takes to charge the battery back up.
The cars have the same problem.
We regularly do 300+ miles on group rides and fill up with gas at least once (takes 5 minutes). Where can you recharge an electric bike in the middle of nowhere?
Depends on if we're talking DC fast charging (Energica / Livewire), or AC charging (Zero). I'd wager a small bet that there is a closer electrical outlet than gas pump. Granted, it takes a longer time to charge, but you WILL charge. Run out of gas in the middle of nowhere, what are your options?
@@MotoRideswJohn Run out of petrol and you can go and get fuel then fill up at the roadside. Run out of electric and you have to push the bike to a charging point. I could even get the RAC to bring me fuel but would they come charge me for an hour? I dunno.
@@MotoRideswJohn there are no outlets in the mountains, but someone driving by or try carrying a fuel bottle.
@@MotoRideswJohn On our last ride across central Wales there were 20 of us. It took little time for most of us to top up at a gas station. But for around town an electric bike, or car, makes sense.
@@daza3620 if you have someone with a fuel tank nearby (usually a car or a truck), you can hook up to them and recoup part of the battery charge. You can carry an extra battery just like you do a gas canister, but unfortunately fancy western bikes don't do spare and replaceable battery designs. Chinese bikes are way ahead in that regard.
Thank you all for your contributions.
In Europe, there is a market with other options in electric mobility, and here 2 years passed with the instability of the war in Ukraine caused the market to shake.
I have an urban mobility vehicle (not a motorcycle) and have done around 40,000 km. Of all the limitations that were mentioned, the worst is: when the vehicle breaks down (and it certainly will) the spare parts simply don't exist. Who is willing to spend months waiting for a part, as the after-sales network simply does not exist?
Hi! I don´t think anyone are willing to spend months waiting for parts. I sure as h*ll won´t. I would never buy anything with that waiting time, especially anything that I need to use on a regular basis. I would scrap or sell that product and buy something that is actually working. And I would spread the word about that manufacturer and product and what waste that so called "product" was was of my money. Br //M
I know Americans don’t like regulations but we definitely need more regulations for ev manufactures to ensure vehicles get support for decades and without serialized parts ect.
I’m not a motorcyclist and I think e-bikes and e scooter eat the small market for e-motorcycles because although they are slower is compensated by not need following regular traffic, no need for insurance ect.
I know Americans don’t like regulations but we definitely need more regulations for ev manufactures to ensure vehicles get support for decades and without serialized parts ect.
I’m not a motorcyclist and I think e-bikes and e scooter eat the small market for e-motorcycles because although they are slower is compensated by not need following regular traffic, no need for insurance ect.
I’ve enjoyed the Zeros I’ve demoed, but I keep coming back to the reality that these are very expensive for a commuter motorcycle. That means the cost per mile has to be exceptionally low, in comparison to my current commuter, a Z400. While that may be possible with home charging, I get the impression public charging may put a ding in the math, for that.
Sounds like you struggle financially. Hope things get better for you.
The real issue is that nobody wants to wait hours instead of just minutes for the battery to get recharged. _Range_ anxiety is not as much about _range_ as it is _place_ anxiety - being stuck somewhere you don't want to be for the next five hours or so just because you need to use the charger.
The battery tech isn't there yet for motorcycles. I will be curious how the Kawasaki hybrid does. The thing is I like the way motorcycles shift. So getting away from the shifting loses some of the fun. If they can get solid state batteries that lower weight and improve range, and charging time. I think you'd find a niche. BMW I think is right going after the scooter market with electric.
"isn't there yet" Little boy, I have 15,000 miles on my Zero SR. You look really stupid right now.
LMAO kid you ride a 250. Keep quiet next time.
@@hank4917 That's called playing the man not the ball in soccer. Maybe you should listen to RF9 a bit more you might learn something.
Surron has the best profile. Kids ride all day. Ride off road for hours. Swap batteries. Zero maintenance. Gangs of kids riding them and now there are bigger ones.
No. Unless...affordability and range and longevity of battery life before it needs replacing.
As an American expat living in Taiwan where an extremely high percentage of the population have scooters, it does seem the electric scooters such as the Gogoro are becoming increasingly common. I believe they use a subscription-based model and when your battery runs out of juice, you can just go swap the battery at one of their many battery changing stations around the big cities, which solves the charge time issue. Since most folks here tend to prefer a scooter for commuting around town, I think battery power has really found a good niche here. That being said, I don’t think I’ve seen a single “big bike” here that’s electric, but the bigger bikes are not as common here most likely because of all the additional hoops like testing, taxes (government bureaucracy) to ride the higher CC bikes here, so most people never make it that far in their riding adventures.
I've heard the Gogoro dock network there is already dense enough to support a 環島
@@doujinflip You are probably right! I see them all over the place, so you could probably make it around the whole island on one now. I took a trip up into the mountains a few weeks ago, but didn’t see any stations where I went though, so might need to keep that in mind when traveling into more obscure places. The regenerative braking might help with mountains at least.
You missed the point that an electric bike has zero character, maybe that is what Zero refers to? As most motorcyclists in developed countries are enthusiasts, we select a bike depending on needs or desires. We all have a preference for singles, parallel twins, vtwins, triples, inline 4s, vfours, even 6 cylinder, each have very different characteristics and sound. You cannot replace all of that with an silent electric motor, never!
I reckon that I could convince you to ride one to work 5 days a week if it was only going to cost you a few dollars in electricity, tyres once in a while, maybe a chain and sprockets and not much else, if it was only a few thousand dollars entry fee. The problem is that it's not "only" a few thousand dollars. They're prohibitively expensive and for most people, it's a case of one or the other, not both.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head, I want the whole engagement while riding what I don't want is an electric twist and go.
I have a Zero 21 DSR ,and absolutely blown away by the performance. It has the best brakes of any bike I've riden . My dealer just dropped carrying them , so could get interesting. My honest opinion is the lofty prices is why . I'll just keep spinning and grinning with mine.
In 2019 I bought a new Kawasaki Z900RS Cafe for $12,000 a Zero at the time that would allow me to commute 50 miles per day was $16,000. I looked at is as that $4,000 at the time was 1000 gallons of gasoline, approximately 35,000 miles of riding before the Zero would pay for the difference. Then the Zero can't do half what the Z900RS can do, and it's not nearly as COOL.
Electric isn't free either. I suspect, depending on your utility charges, the break even could be a lot worse than 35K miles.
Why are you trying to lie, Joe? Is your life really that trash. Seems like it.
@@alpineacres8042yes, far worse
I have both a Zero and a Z900RS Cafe (2018 version). Personally I prefer the Zero for commuting. No chain cleaning, don't have to hold in the clutch or shift to 1st at stop lights, creeps easier in traffic, and has a frunk. Have commuted on both. Have also commuted on a Honda NC750X DCT. Zero beat that too (lighter, faster, and easier to maneuver). I like both bikes; still have both bikes. But most days I prefer the Zero. To each their own, I guess.
@@renynzea Hey Thanks for your reply! Mine's a 2018 too. Just curious how far your commute is, mine was 25 miles each way.
It was interesting to see people from rich nations discussing the points. Points are valid but not for India. All kinds of EVs are getting popular here in India. Scooters, Bikes (UV F77 Mach 2, Ola roadster pro), Tugboats, 3 wheelers, buses everything. Cost to run a normal bike is 10 times more than an ev bike / scooter. ₹2.5/ km for petrol, ₹0.25/km for EV bike/ scooter.
Electric motorcycles are just not cool. They are way too expensive and have too little range.
It's a completely different riding experience. Riding isn't always about range and the prices are becoming more and more affordable. How much does a brand name sport touring bike cost these days?
@@earthwormandruw What electric motorcycles do you consider as being close to affordable?
@@krunchie101 I never said anything about "affordable". 20k is a good medium. For a quality motorcycle.
2024 Honda africa twin sports MSRP = $18,399
2024 Harley soft tail MSRP = $16,949
2024 Honda CBR1000RR MSRP = $17,999
Energica eva MSRP = $18,995
@earthwormandruw Huh? Your second sentence said they're becoming more and more affordable. I just wanted to know what bikes.
@@krunchie101 The last one, the energica.
I finally stopped using unreliable 2 stroke motorized bicycle kits, for a nice e-bike, to do my delivery job, as I get back on my feet. Sometimes it is annoying, limiting my power usage, to stay out longer doing deliveries, and not have the power to rush home as fast as possible when my shift is done, or I just want to be home. But it is fun treating every outing like a space mission, managing power, so the battery is never empty far from home. And I haven't even depleated this e-bike yet, always make it home.
Like a motorized bicycle is a great gateway into normal motorcycles. E-bikes are a great introduction to managing and living with an electric motorcycle.
Even though my new ebike dosen't have an amp-hour meter showing me exactly how much power is leaving or entering the battery, so I know exactly when it's empty or when it's fully charged. The Wattmeter on it is very helpful, along with the simple battery gauge, and power settings. Level 2 for a long night, 3 for a short fun one, high and higher the closer I get to home. Back to 2 or 1 if battery is low, and I'm not there yet. On the fly gambling.
It doesn't have dual hub motor All Wheel Drive, nor Brake Regen, nor rear suspension, but it is way better then what I was using before. I love the stealth, and subtle noises the motor does make. Saving to build an electric AWD Dual Sport.
I firmly believe that swappable batteries are best for the city, which is why, if I had the money, I would build something like the Zero FXS. But for road trips, adventures, and big emergencies, I would prefer a plugin Series Hybrid. And electric motorcycle, with a generator built in, for extending range, and for when & where I can't plug in. The the torque & stealth of electric, but the convince of fuel.
And I agree with Ryan. I'm sick of these manufactures making these expensive anti-poor, luxurious, tone-death bikes, instead of something more obtainable, approachable, and useable, like a cheaper, weaker, more comfortable version of the Zero FX. Affordable, with swappable batteries. Doing my delivery job, I see a lot of e-bikes, and Chinese scooters that are gasoline, or battery swappable electric.
And I have messaged Elon & Tesla multiple times about making affordable electric bikes for the masses, if they really want to "lay the smack down on engines" and give people a real personal transportation option, when they can't afford, or don't need a car, let alone a upper middle class Tesla. And you can name your Tesla motorcycle and e-bike Model M and Model F, to continue the running joke of the model names (S3XY MF), still no response. It seems Tesla, and most of these electric motorcycle makers, don't care about those below middle class, especially during these times, and Elon is choosing to limit what his company will make, because of his personal fear of bikes.
No matter, I just design & build what I need & want. After everything I have been through, the sabotage & betrayals, and degenerates, I'm a survivor & creator. I don't need Tesla, Elon, their charging network, their parts, or any of these pretentious, hypocritical silicone vally types.
I 100% disagree with this take. I love not checking oil levels, having my hands and toes buzz all day long, and paying $500/yr for service. The range of the new Zero batteries is acceptable - I can ride from the suburbs to the mountains and back off a single level 2 charge during lunch and coffee. And the power is so effortless, it’s like flying. I had to rent one off of riders share before I was convinced. I encourage other riders to do the same and decide for yourself after living with one for a day or two.
I’ve ridden plenty of them at work when customers bring them to us to do a state inspection. The acceleration is cool, but when I get back on an MT07 or my XSR900, the experience can’t compare in fun.
I think Linus from LTT summed this up pretty well a couple years ago. After trying out an electric motorcycle, he said that motorcycles are all about sensations. Feel, smell, sound. He chose to keep his sv650.
I’ve got an SV650, and an Evoke Urban Ev bike.
The evoke allowed me to reduce my SV to a weekend warrior, and it now should last me the rest of my life with maintenance and I’ll use EV for my commute going forward.
What I really want from an EV is a maxi scooter, it needs to own its market place as a commuter vehicle and the maxi scooter is one of the greatest commuter bikes on the planet.
As weird as it is, my NC700X's frunk is GOATed
I have a 2023 Energica Experia and a 2023 Triumph 1200 Rally Explorer in my garage. I picked up the Experia for 19.5 with 800 miles on it (I couldn't in any universe be able to excuse 33K OTD price on it), and I love taking the experia out. Yes you can get either 100 or 260 miles on it. I've had EVs for 6 yrs now and have been well versed in charging, otherwise I would be very very stand-offish in getting an electric bike out the gate.
I mean aren't electric motorcycles essentially more powerful scooters?
We don't have many ev scooters. Talking about the street legal sit down ones. I wish they did because it makes the most sense there
So are motorcycles,
they are just powerful mopeds.
E motorcycles are pretty powerful
Issue #1, energy density. All the other issues cascade from this. Sadly, it's not one to be solved quickly or easily or technology that will trickle down into emotos anytime soon. The core matter is just that electric motors are meant to run at high RPMs, they are not great to torque from 0. To build an emoto without range anxiety, you need to overbuild everything. The motor, the battery, the controller. The absolute #1 cause of range issues is big, huge, high draws, which just aren't efficient and asks the battery to just dump power like crazy, the controller to not melt, and the motor to inch turning off and on magnet sets. The first 10 meters of starting an emoto from a standstill, full blast, can burn more battery than running it for 5 minutes.
But if you /do/ overbuild everything, high voltage batteries, endurance controllers and chunky motors which can handle acceleration without breaking a sweat, yeah.. you'll have better range through acceleration. There's a direct link between voltage and range, but in the end, the matter is that all that overbuilt.. it doesn't ever get used since once you are at speed, it's unusable to wheelie the bike like it weights nothing at 120kmph by a quick throttle pull. Because that's what you get when you overbuild stuff to that tier, and.. all of that /costs/. And the math is that it's easier to sell a 'range' bike that doesn't 'kick' and train the end user, than build up a 20k emoto that no one will buy.
So we end up with the crux of the matter. If there was no range anxiety, a LOT of motorcyclists whould switch to emotos, if we could charge in 30 minutes 20-80%, even more would switch. But there is, and what you're asking of current gas motorcyclists, the daredevils the devil-may-cares, the ones that motorcycle both for adrenaline but also as a lifestyle, the /enthusiasts/... is to NOT twist that throttle. And that's the real core of the matter with why electric motorycles just aren't a thing. It feels like what emotos need is a cultural shift, a trend, a something, to make them the "it" thing.
The other is cost, of course, i've had so many people, when i tell them of my 6-10k eur ebikes, just say "for that money i could buy a Honda this, or a Yamaha that". And.. they're not wrong, but we've been economy of scale and building up gas motorcycles for years... the only countries which have seen significant uptick of electric motorcycles were ones which offered great state-sponsored kickbacks, where those bikes drop down to 3-6k. But that's neither here not there. Also, to note, US is a huge market and usually 'drives' what the requirements are for vehicles, so 50mile commuting one way? Yeah, ebikes will fail that test.
As Chinese EV manufacturers catch up so will Chinese electric motorcycles and disrupt western markets. Western manufacturers have no reason to invest in creating EV fleets. Western regulators treat motorcycles as luxury hobby items.
No way in hell would I EVER straddle a big Chinese battery!
That's like flirting with death.
Motorized unpedaled bikes of any power have unique dynamics that demands specific training, hence why it's a separate endorsement on a driver's license. Chinese e-bikes are heavily nerfed because most riders don't take that training (and the Chinese government ironically isn't that forceful about useful education like two-wheeler courses), and it shows how amateur and unpredictable they are when you ride among them like I have the last couple years.
I’ve put 10,600 miles on my Zero SR/S. I routinely ride it for work commutes that are 70 miles each way. I charge during work and reach my destination with about 15%.
It has about as much range as I feel like riding, so I do not find it overly limiting. Level 2 charging is about the time to grab a decent meal. I do believe that for mass adoption you need a battery able to ride for 2 hours at 70 MPH then charge in 1 hour.
To be honest I'll never buy another gas bike. I enjoyed my zero so much, gas feels worse in every way to me.
As far as the market goes, what we really need IMO is stuff like the Onyx to be street legal motorcycles instead illegal bicycles. The $5k 125cc -ish equivilant is where electric really shines at the moment.
Check out the solar eclipse or apex predator. The apex is still a prototype but the solar eclipse is full carbon fiber 15kw 105 lbs 70+ mph commuter that is street legal.
For 6700
It's the personality of the motorcycle rider. It's the visceral quality of the ICE motorcycle that is a big part of the desired experience.
I went from a bicycle to an electric bicycle because my knees went bad.
I went from an electric bicycle to a 50cc scooter because I was sick of having a range of something like 12 miles on my cheap Chinese e-bike.
Now I'm moving to a small motorcycle (150cc mini-moto type, picking it up tomorrow) because I got used to longer range and now want more speed.
In the future, I expect to move up to a bike that can manage freeways on speed and across the US on range/reliability.
If there's ever an economical electric motorcycle with reasonably high speed, a reasonably long range, a reasonably fast charge time, and a built-out national network of charge stations -- nowhere near "gas station on every corner," probably, but "always within 50% charge of a charge station if you're on a significant road," say -- I'd strongly consider it for the same reason I prefer an air-cooled vehicle to a liquid cooled vehicle ... there's less to go wrong. Fewer fluids to leak or burn, fewer moving parts to fail.
But that's just me. While I'm starting to get excited about and into motorcycles (which led me here because I've been digging Fortnine's stuff), at the moment I still fall far more into the "transportation for one person who doesn't need to haul lumber in the back" camp than into the "rides 16 hours a day, dreams of riding eight hours a night" camp. It will probably be decades before there's a group of the latter who think about any electric bike in the way that some riders today think fondly of the Vincent Black Shadow or the Norton Commando or [insert favorite Harley here].
I spoke to my old (retired) boss recently, he's an enthusiast with all things new and old. In 2008 he bought a Vextric electric motorcycle, it had a lot of problems, but it did around 70 miles per charge, top speed of under 70mph and it had regen. I think it cost £7000. In 2023 he bought a Seat Mo (don't know price) and he's incredibly happy with it. He has other vehicles and it does suit his life style - owns a home that allow convenient charging, doesn't use it every day and doesn't do long distances on it (perhaps 40 mile round trips). I'm quite interested in having a go, just out of curiosity. I did try his Vextric when he had it, and it was alright, just an overweight scooter really and purely practical...unless you wanted to do more than 70 miles in a day.
I bought a energica essesse 9+ rs to use as a commuter. my commute is about 65 miles round trip from the san gabriels to LAX. I was able to slow charge at home and be good for the next day. I ended up selling the bike after only 2 weeks of owning it because I could not put up with the sporty ergo and suspension. riding it over the expansion joints killed me and cruising through longer stretches on the highway was uncomfortable for me due to the sporty ergo. would be a great bike for doing hot laps at the track but then i'd rather have the ego. i'm back to commuting on my gs and multistrada because those are like a magic carpet ride.
I've been riding motor bikes entire life,since my Suzuki trail hopper 50 in the 70s. The gasoline engine is the heart of the machine. The smell of a two stroke, A transmission with a clutch connectes the machine to the riders hand. Keeps the experience alive and takes up more space in your brain to execute travel, therefore more entertaining ? That said I have added an electric mid drive full suspension mountain bike ,now I ride more often. Paid too much for it, however it has increased my range and ability riding hilly enduro style. You can spend 3-4 hrs in woods and cover 35 miles and sneak up on deer. that's a winner !
I 100% agree regarding that a motorcycle has to have an ICE-engine. I will never buy a bike with a sewing-machine-style electrical engine for the experience of riding. I want the (not linear and instantaneous) power of the ICE, the sound (but not too loud so it disturbs others) and the vibration - the feel. If I wanted to ride a battery-pack I would buy an electric bicycle. And it sounds great and beautiful with the electrical mountain bike - it would be amazing to see dears and the nature IMHO 🙂 Take care! Br //M
I'm a total convert to e-bikes. I've got 3 different ones now. They are all off-road so Ryan has a great point. I own a Surron Storm Bee, a Surron Ultra Bee (which Ryan gushed over) and an eMTB (electric mountain bike). The prices are $3-7k for these 3 bikes.
I get about 3-4 rides before I recharge because I'm well done before the bike is. I ride almost exclusively off-road on technical mountain terrain around where I live in the mountains. So a 1 hour ride is about enough. There are no gas stations where I live but we have cheap electricity. So it's far more convenient for me to run electric.
If I need to go shopping in the city (72km round trip) I need carrying capacity so I take my truck.
I love the concept of an urban scrambler; It's why I've been eyeing the Huskvarna Svartpilen.
It's the perfect place for an electric bike. Hit curbs, do a wheelie, sneak out in stealth mode, and recharge at Starbucks.
Electric moto- high CdA,low energy storage
Electric car-low CdA, big energy storage space.
Basically surrons and off road electric is the best use case with current tech because speeds are low enough
I own a Zero FX. It is the ultimate urban assault bike. 300 pound and 79ftlb of torque, point and shoot throttle response, decent brakes, and great handling once you lower the front end to reduce trail. It will do 140kph on a full battery for short bursts but will overheat if you keep it pinned. Nothing much can beat it off the line, Tesla and Rivian are a match. Every gas bike will eventually catch it, but light to light it’s impressive. In 6 years of stupid insane speeding in the city, never had a cop look my way, too quiet to get their attention.
UA-camr Mark Travels is riding his Zero SRF around the world including mountains. He plans his days around range and uses private hotel and restaurant wall outlets to charge where there are no stations.
Own a 2021 Zero SR/S. It's my primary vehicle. It's my 4th motorcycle, all my prior bikes were gas. It's the best bike I've ever owned and I love it. Electric bikes haven't failed. Journalism has.
I recently pulled up to a red light in my car. In front of me was $25,000+ Harley-Davidson and $22,000-ish Energica. The Harley sat there plapty-plapty-ing next to the silent Energica. When the light turned green, the Harley went WFO, his "Screaming Eagle" pipes blowing out eardrums as he blasted to a blistering 45mph and rising. When the Energica opened up, he disappeared like magic with an amazing whoosh/whine -- which is the new sound of horse power! This tableau looked like an antique chrome horse carriage next to the future. Give it time. I will not buy any $25,000 motorcycle, but if they build me the electric equivalent of a 400cc commuter bike at a competitive price, I'm there.
I own a Surron Ultra Bee for trail riding (4kw battery, 12kw motor), and for my use case it's much better than the gas bikes I've owned for the same purpose. It's light weight with plenty of power, and the most battery I've ever used in a day was around 65%. This is in Central Florida where the terrain is deep powdery sand which is pretty physically taxing. So, like Ryan was saying about his trials bike - my back taps out long before the bike ever does. That said, I still have a street bike (Ducati Monster 1200r) for weekend use since I live in the suburbs and need to ride 20 miles to get to any roads enjoyable to ride. Everything locally is just a straight highway loaded with traffic lights.
How long is your ride? A hour? I rented a ultra bee and the battery was dead in 2.5 hours. That’s not enough time for me to get exhausted and be done riding
@@awhiteguy24 I usually do 15-20 miles when I go out, but the terrain is deep powdery sand and the trails are all whoops. So it more or less doing squat pulses non-stop. It gets pretty taxing for most people. I live about a half hour from a 2500 acre public trail network so I usually just go for a couple hours a couple times a week. Maybe I have a specific use case, but I'd think I'm fairly typical.
good for you, but light bee aint particularly light, since any 85cc 2 stroke is lighter and in aprox range of output power too. that aside, sur rons are awesome if you like BICYLCLES (with one exeption; storm bee. I like that one, would be good replacement for my 85 :D ), im clumsy on those light thingies with narrow wheels, need some weight under my ass to feel safe :). stark varg... oh boy, that's one of bikes i'd gladly buy, but price is a killer where i live.
Put 2000km on my Livewire S2 Del Mar in about 3 weeks. Love this machine, it is so much fun to ride. I live in Amsterdam so small commutes but I went to the beach (Zandvoort) a couple times which is about a 40min ride back and forth and I come back with between 40-50% battery. I have no issues with it so far and personally I really love the quiet ride, listening to music as I ride around is super. The Showa shocks are my only pet peeve, but I will have those upgraded soon. 240Nm on the throttle is something to experience...
Just my two cents, I come from a BMX background and did many tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. I see these emotos as kind of like the cafe cruisers of WW2. I use my Sur Ron and Huck cycle to bob around town charging up at various places while drinking an energy drink, eating a burrito or getting a coffee. They aren't as fast as any real motorcycle and I'm not trying to be. I find the adventure fun when I see some wide open area with a bar/dining area. Always strikes up conversations and best of all I don't pay for gas insurance or maintenance much. It sits in my garage when I come back again from touring. I could go on why I like it more but I hope that paints the picture a bit.
'As a biker I love the sound of the engine, the vibrations, the smell of oil and gasoline, the heat. Motorbike riding is pure emotion!'
'Whaaat? Motorbikes don't breathe and move and respond like my horse. They are totally artificial, unbearably loud, stinky. They don't communicate. Horseback riding is pure emotion!'
'Well, I like to get from A to B as easy and smooth and quiet as possible. I love riding up to the hills over there and feel and HEAR nature around me. Small eBike riding is pure emotion for me!'
I think, it mainly depends on what you're used to. Besides of that: Exactly that glorious sound of those engines is the reason why more and more roads around here get completely closed für motorbikes.
Same in the city. One single Harley at the traffic lights produces way more noise than twentyfive cars and two trucks combined. For anyone else out there those bikes are as pleasing as a dozen leafblowers under your window.
I'm afraid, the biker community sooner or later will have to decide: Get quieter or get banned.
By the way - I just bought a gasoline MaxiScooter recently coming from a small eScooter. Really hard to get used to that constant noise around me!
Loves the term "range anxiety". That is spot on. I take a small fuel can when trail riding that I have never needed to use... but if I did need it, I'm not screwed.
Comments dissing "touring" variants of other bikes completely misses the point. Most people will ever only have one motorcycle in their stable at a time because it's already a frivolous purchase. Just because you ride it as a commuter 98% of the time doesn't change the fact that adding a small windshield, more upright posture, travel cases to an aggressive sport bike for example...loses very little sportyness, but gains a ton of travel comfort. It's precisely because it's that simple to turn any style bike into a good touring bike that it sells. If you're spending your 2% non-commuter time at the track, then you're going to keep it pure sport...but that's few people.
Most people in the US that ride motorcycles do it because the love riding motorcycles. They might only have time to go on two or three long road trips a year. But that's impossible with an electric bike today.