Loved this game and was very impressed by their ability to pull off an abstract and personal story about grief in an arcadey sci-fi shooter game. Thanks for making a video discussing it! My little contribution will be that in the presidents speech that you discussed in the video that was prepared in case the astronauts in the first moon landing weren't able to return, the president ended it by saying that they had been sacrificed to the "deepest of the deep" which is where you are headed in the final biome of the game. Tons of little details all abstractly weaving together and Housemarque pulled it off. Can't imagine trying to craft a narrative like this with so many loose loose threads that somehow still manage to create something compelling. I hope to see more from this team, because Returnal was truly unique
I typed this as part of a reply, but I broke it out into it's own comment because because... it's a lot. My own hypotheses about this game (which I adore) are still formulating and permutating... but my thinking is that Atropos is both real and allegorical, as Jacob suggested. Moreover, it's clearly about Selene's grief, but I think more to a point, it's about the concept of 'generational trauma'. (Which is kind of perfect for a roguelite if one considers each loop/life/death as a generation, and the player's ability to become aware of some behaviors and change them, while others are harder to break and ultimately continue to be their downfall, but I digress.) My read (as it stands currently) -- Theia put her aspirations of being an Astronaut ahead of her relationship with her daughter, Selene, straining their relationship irreparably. This (in my mind) is corroborated by the missed phone calls between Theia and Selene, Selene suggesting that it was supposed to be her mother who traversed the stars, the House 'Kitchen' vignette where Selene/Helios tries desperately to connect with the Astronaut Theia/Selene in spite of the fear of potential rejection for even trying. However, due to Car Crash 1, Theia becomes incapable of fulfilling her destiny, and her relationship with Selene is strained further -- possibly because Theia blames Selene somehow for where here life has led. They become so separate from one another and/or Theia's condition accelerates to a point that Theia feels /alien/ to Selene. (ie, the Act 3 wheelchair scene) Then, perhaps in spite of her mother's aspirations damaging their relationship but also not wanting to end up where Theia has, Selene opts to join the ASTRA program, ultimately succeeding where her mother could not, but never feeling like she has been freed from the specter of her mother's shadow (the ever looming, always watching, endlessly judging astronaut). As such, Selene never really relishes in this success, rather she feels guilty that she is the one blazing this trail and not Theia. However, in committing herself to the ASTRA program, she begins to neglect Helios, straining their relationship and her own health. She overworks herself (and possibly self-medicates?), causing her to be drowsy on the drive home. This ultimately leads to Car Crash 2, where Helios dies. In some of the recovered audiologs, as Selene appears to be attempting to gain some sort of 'flight clearance' or certification of mental fitness-- she assures the interviewee that the past is in the past and she doesn't think of 'them' anymore and has nothing keeping her 'here', and only wishes to move forward. This 'them' to me indicates both Theia and Helios have passed on at this point, and having nobody else tethering her, Selene pours all of herself into ASTRA/her work, never really grieving or dealing with her traumas, wanting literally to escape them by leaving Earth entirely. She crash lands on Atropos, setting off years and years of repressed emotions and stress, which either fundamentally alters her perception of Atropos ("the house was never really there"), initiates a guilt-suffused nightmare that are the last moments before her death ("it was all a dying dream"), or maybe that's just how Atropos works somehow -- that it looks into you to find the thing you are most affected by, and mercilessly wields it against you in some kind of DEFCON 1 mental warfare protocol ("planet boggart" as a concept would fit right in this game, imo). Any of these could be legitimate to me, if only because it's not really the point. The point appears to be the analysis/allegory of generational trauma. I say 'generational trauma' because I think a lot of people read that final cutscene of Selene 'becoming' the Astronaut as literal, where I think that too is somewhat allegorical. I don't know how much of this is corroborated by the logs within the game, but I think Theia was literally the person in the Astronaut suit during the Act 3 cutscene. Due to senility or Alzheimer's or something, she's out and about in the suit, lost, and Selene hits her while she's driving that fateful night, killing Theia on impact (the scene cuts to the Astronaut's POV, motionless on the road before cutting back to Selene in the submerged car) and then also resulting in the death of Helios, which Selene blames herself for not being able to save. In one log, Selene says she's seen the jet black skull that lies beneath the helmet of the Astronaut, and in the fight with Ophion we see this skull beneath a helmet as the final phase, in a way that to me is very similar to the way Theia is rendered in the wheelchair later. I think Ophion represents all three lifetimes -- Helios', Selene's and Theia's, inextricably linked. What begins with Theia is passed down to Selene and ultimately affects Helios, and it isn't until Selene forces herself to confront the totality of everything that led to that moment that she's able to 'break' the cycle, by breaking the surface and coming up for air -- common metaphors for people who are dealing with intangible traumas. There's still a lot of gaps and holes in there still, but that's where I am currently in my analysis of the game, and what I think it's trying to say.
Very cool reading of this very deep and complex story! I would suggest that possibly Selene could not only be the one in the astronaut suit - sent there by whatever machine or power is at the bottom of the abyss, and then the "black skull" beneath the helmet is the first instance of one of her dead bodies becoming a monster and following her - just like when you find your dead bodies in the levels of the game. The parallels between the crash on the bridge and the crash on Atrophos can't be ignored, and make it hard to believe that both things "really" happened. Selene's crash at the beginning of the game is almost the exact same scene as the crash in the end. If you look out the window of the space ship it appears to be under water. Helios' doll, Octo, is in the back, and when you leave the ship you "abandon" him. I anticipate there will be a DLC released that will give us some more clues. There is still a door on the ship we have never gotten open, and a door up on the ledge in the first and fourth biomes that is unaccessible. I suspect we will find Helios (Apollo?). It would be cool to play through the levels again as Helios or even just to replay the story with a New Game + option!
I was intrigued the first time I saw Returnal but wasn’t sold at first. Then I ended up purchasing it and it’s my game of the year so far. It’s that good! The gameplay and story blew my mind and had my jaw on the floor. Side note, I’m not someone playing rogue lite/like games but I’ve preordered Hades on my PS5 because of Returnal
Im glad you guys are doing this for a few reasons... I dont have a PS5, this is a very interesting game but its not in my wheel house of game genres.. So thank you!
God, I love this game so much. Thanks for this discussion! I learned more nuance from the story from you three. So happy to see other people enjoy this awesome game!
You guys talked about this game for almost an hour and I feel like you barely scratched the surface of the story of this game. For instance, did you know the health power up (Silphilum) was an ancient herb that cured disease and mental illness, but also used as birth control/morning after pill? The Obolites (coins - obols) were used as money in ancient Greece, but also were the form of payment needed to pay Cheron to leave the afterlife? This game has so many layers, but so few answers! Some people think there were two accidents (Theia and Selene) others think there was just one accident. Some people think Theia and Selene are the same person, others think that Helios and Selene are the same person. I suspect the story was inspired by the writings of Argentine author Jorge Luis Borges, such as The Aleph and Other Stories. They explore themes of two people being the same person, the afterlife, and very high-concept metaphysics (like a magical Aleph that contains the whole universe inside a tiny sphere).
Listened via podcast but wanted to come comment here as well that this was a fantastic discussion! Definitely my favorite Max spoilers and it really made me wish there was a full Deepest Dive into this game. Great group of people and I loved hearing your enthusiasm for the game.
Loved the cerebral sci fi vibes, very Moon-esque. But once I got to the first boss I knew I would never be able to make it through the game. Glad to have you guys to tell me what I would never see myself.
You might spend a few runs trying to unlock all of the abilities of the weapons (which doesn't reset when you die), then try to clear out all of the rooms in one run with just your pistol, or the first gun you find, then go back and unlock all the weapon chests. This will make sure you have the most powerful gun possible, have tons of power ups, and you should be able to get through the boss without trouble.
Why does everyone think Selene is driving? It has to be Theia. Helios is Selene's brother. There's one car crash. Selene was having a breakdown in an astronaut suit. Her mother crashes and gets paralyzed. The monster that pulls her from the wreck was Selene. Abandoning helios in the process. Everything on the planet is a metaphor. The hivemind and severed are constructs of Selene's mind of what being an Astra scout would be like (since she was rejected from the program).
Lol, just wanted to say I finally got the Platinum trophy in Returnal while watching this video. Maybe the most frustrating platinum I have ever gotten.
I haven't played the game but just listening to this feels like Solaris might have been an inspiration, in that the planet is a real place but it feeds and blends with the internal psyche of the people within it.
I still believe in the theory that the planet is real. The way it works is that Selene can travel back and forth in time. In the first half of the game, there is a reference to ascension and how the ascended sort of go crazy. I believe this is basically what happened and that Selene ascended and obtained the powers of being able to go back in time as the astronaut to ensure that her younger self would go to space. Helios, as in Greek mythology, is her brother who died in the womb of her mother, the driver. The cutscene with the wheelchair alien has a bulge indicating that they are pregnant and that alien was supposed to represent Selene’s mom. It was the accident that made Selene resent her mom. Her mom was the rejected astronaut and Selene followed in her footsteps. In the start of biome 4, Selene asks how old Helios is which makes it appear that she is referring to a dead person rather than her ship. Basically, Selene went back in time to change the fate (Atropos is a god of fate) of her past self so that she could be at this moment, and at the end, she just accepts her destiny and lives in this world forever as an ascended of Atropos.
This would also explain why Selene has no memory of her time there at the beginning yet the audio logs exist. This makes no sense unless Selene had the ability to manipulate time.
One thing that sort of lends credence to this, I think, is that the game insinuates that the race of 'aliens' that inhabited Atropos is related to Selene in a more direct way. She takes all of the technological upgrades from deceased entities on Atropos, and takes notice of the fact that they all fit her suit without any sort of modification, as if they were meant for her. This wasn't brought up in the Max Spoilers at all, but my interpretation of this is that they're all Selene somehow. That in some loops she becomes so utterly changed from her original state that she sort of populates the planet with copies of herself, but their cognizance is affected in such a way that they become sufficiently divergent from the original Selene. They form their own language, their own history, their own mythos and explanations for what is happening on the planet, to the point that they effectively become their own race unto themselves. The holo-records Selene finds start out looking fully alien, but as you progress they begin to resemble Selene more and more, specifically the 'Observer' ones that require additional effort/upgrades to reach and activate (meaning Selene would be the most likely of all things on the planet to find them). In fact, at one point, she boggles at how expertly they were able to capture her likeness, despite... never having crossed paths with them, at least not ones who weren't in 'Severed' form. In my mind, it's because she is them. They are all her.
@@OMGLX awesome take, I also believe in that time travel eldritch powers side of the story but I never pondered about if the aliens were her... actually makes sense; some of her logs have ''mad selene severed style'' and more ''normal'' selene
I made it to the last boss from the 3rd boss on in one run and died in the last boss fight. It gets harder for sure once your into the second act trying to get back to the final boss. This game is a masterpiece. I will be finishing it this weekend!
Selene is not the one driving the car. It is actually her mother Thea. There are news clippings of how she was paralyzed in the accident, hence the wheelchair. If you look at the driver of the cars' eyes, she doesn't have heterochromia, where her iris' are two different colors. Selene does have heterochromia so you can easily tell it is not her driving the car.
The characters are based around Greek mythology. Selene as a character is Greek-American - "Helios and his sisters Eos and Selene were children of the titans Hyperion and Theia, and were the Gods and Goddesses of the Sun, Dawn and The Moon respectively." Theia is the Monster in the wheelchair, Selene's mother Hyperion is the boss at the top of the tower playing the organ, Selene's father Selene is Moon Helios is Sun Eos is sky/dawn If they follow the exact mythological take then Helios and Selene are brother and sister. Helios would ride his chariot across the sky from East to West every day. Much as Selene would the moon. Makes for an interesting tid bit as Selene rides in Helios across the sky of Atropos. There's a lot of symbolism in the game and there appears to some strong symbolism of C\cancer with the malignancy that increases in items as you go further down the depths, though I don't remember seeing anything that directly tied to cancer. To add, the planet Atropos is also Greek mythology. - "In Greek mythology, Atropos (from Greek Άτροπος, "without turn") was one of the three Moirae, goddesses of fate and destiny. Her Roman equivalent was Morta. Atropos was the oldest of the Three Fates, and was known as the "inflexible" or "inevitable"." (Selene creating her own inevitable fate?) I think there's a lot of red herrings and misdirection in the game also. One running theory is that Helios and his mother Theia (The monster in the wheelchair who appears to be pregnant) were in a car crash when Selene was perhaps unborn or not present. This may be the only car crash and the one we witness and are misdirected into thinking it is Selene due to her and her mother looking very identical from the photo inside the house. Also, Selene has Heterochromia iridium (2 different coloured eyes) where as Theia does not and the driver did not. There is mention that Selene's Heterochromia iridium comes from stress but I'm unsure if that can actually even happen as from what I could read if it does appear in later life it is usually due to underlying issue. Theia broke her back in the crash, thus the wheelchair and appears to have become resentful and spiteful in later life. This appears to maybe have created tension between Selene and Theia to the point that Selene would burn down the family homestead shown in the visions along with in the artifacts of the charred piano key, melted globe etc. We do also find a letter where Selene was unsuccessful in her application with ASTRA, which may have actually been her mothers rejection letter as Selene says she's never seen it before although Selene could also just be crazy as the planet/Octopus plays with her mind as she run through purgatory over and over. I also wonder if the pregnant looking Theia was representative or Selene or Eos. I myself believe the planet is real but there is a lot going on that's still up in the air. It's a very messy write up I know. There's still a lot of picking apart to do and some great videos and reddit threads getting about but I do feel there is some more DLC or a sequel needed to fill in more detail as every article, video and thread seem to have different theories currently. At the end of the day who knows, maybe Selene's just batshit crazy and it was her driving and she's just lost the plot. Edit: Another fun little tid bit. Through the game there are certain points, like the desert for example, where if you look back and at the top of some pillars or building tops the white shadow standing there watching you. Like a white hologram of an astronaut.
I think the bosses in the latter half of the game getting easier (until the last one which is a Lovecraftian wet dream lol) is narratively intentional. Selene drifting closer and closer to madness has her become more and more assimilated to take on nightmarish creatures. The only exception to this is biome 5 with the 3 severed, but there's no boss after since you've already prooved your assimilation into the world's madness
Returnal is great game. The only really negative thing about it, is the spawn rate of some of the logs and glyphs needed for the platinum. It took me 17h to get the "secret"/Act 3 ending and 71h to grind out all the collectibles. Esp. that damn audio log 9, i ran overgrown ruins for it over 100 times...
What I love about returnal is that it is open to endless interpretations and theories. Like, I've had a few that I've shared with friends who I've showed the game to and hey have come back to me with an altered viewpoint. Just got the true ending now and think I've done all I need to. What a game, what a journey. I almost wanted to throw my PS5 out of the window but overall, no regrets.
I thought there was one car crash, Selenes mom looks like her but she saved her mom as a child but couldn't save her brother (Helios) as well. It also ladders up with Greek mythology more with Selene and Helios being siblings and Theia and Hyperion being the parents. But too trippy at times to be sure, but 2 car crashes would be too contrived for me, I also feel it all being imagination is too 1 sided. I think something on the planet is playing with her psych like it did the aliens and slowly driving her mad.
Spoilers for the game: The "it was all in her head"/manifestation of her grief twist really did not work for me at all and soured me on continuing to play, because it strips away a lot of the agency from your immediate actions and makes a lot of the red herrings (like the alien civilization lore) especially irrelevant. That being said your guyses discussion was great and had me appreciate the little details around how the devs manifest her grief a lot more.
I'm actually more with Jacob in this discussion in that I don't really think it's all in her head. I kind of think of it more in the Miyazaki "My Neighbor Totoro" camp, where there's a very blurry line between imagination and what's real.
Love the talks about this game and I love the game too! My only major criticism for the game was the story. Ambiguous storytelling is really popular nowadays and I just don't feel like they hit the mark on this one at all. It kept me interested for a while, but at the same time it was never fulfilling to me. It felt like they couldn't decide if they wanted to go with the alien planet theme or the mental breakdown into insanity theme. It seemed to kind of contradict it's storytelling very often and I wasn't a fan. They tied it in relatively well most notably for me would be the 4th boss, the music one. But even still, it was just... off? Or maybe 'unfinished' would be a better word. Idk I can't think of the exact examples right now as I didn't know I'd be making a comment on it, but all the same. I loved literally every other part about it. If they had just kept with the alien planet theme this game would be an easy 10/10 for me, but because it literally went off the 'deep end'(lol) with it's story, I gotta give it a 9. It honestly was off putting for me where normally I would be more intrigued by a story like this.
I agree that the ambiguous nature of the story is a negative for the game. The fact there is almost NOTHING we are certain of in the story is disappointing. It would have at least been nice if we knew exactly what happened with the crash on the bridge - we don't even know for sure if the child died or not! Selene never speaks of Helios, except to say that "he didn't survive" and she is "abandoning" him, but there is no grief or sadness in her voice when she says this, so it seems she is just talking about the spaceship. I am hopeful some DLC will give some concrete answers, but I'm sure we will never get a full explanation of the events of the game.
I will say I don't subscribe to the 'purgatory' and 'all in her head' theories. I think everything is real, and for two reasons: 1.) It makes all of the lore in the game mean nothing if it's not, be it the computer logs or the information about the severed and the machines. 2.) The devs specifically called out Lovecraftian horror as an inspiration and how there are "Cosmic forces" at work, and I think some sort of elder god trying to lure people with deep repressed emotional trauma to a planet that traps them forever to experience that trauma and confront it seems pretty Lovecraftian to me.
totally agree. It feels like selene actually ascend and use the powers of the eldritch monster (ALA bloodborn ending). she, trying to stop the loop for ever hapenning actually cause her to be trapped by shooting Helios spacecraft; then by being the astronaut and causing the accident. a lot for intrepretation yes, but I think everything being real but intermingle with HP/david lynch style of story telling is what the dev were after. There is a lot of book also about the deterministic nature of fate (time travel always happens and was her destiny)
My impression of the audio logs is that they are like alternate timelines, like a potential outcome of what can happen, like when she says stuff like "that is not me" or "I will never become that" when the audio logs start sounding more and more insane. And maybe it's basically like a Silent Hill timeloop planet. 😅
I'm pretty sure selene is the child in the crash, and her mother is driving. The driver doesn't have heterochromia, which selene does. It is clearly visible in the cutscene.
Toward the beginning one of the guys says that they liked inside, where they don’t spoon feed you what’s going on. I hate limbo, because there doesn’t seem to actually be a story. They created the game to be “mysterious” in such a way that the player feels like there’s a story that they just aren’t figuring out. Return all felt the same way. Rather than construct a clever narrative and build the game around it, the devs just made a game that *feels like* there’s a narrative. Can’t blame them, must be easier than writing a cohesive narrative.
Phenomenal game but the post-game/Act 3 is such a let down. Feels like lame busy work instead of anything interesting or a cool new challenge. I don't consider it part of the main game which is otherwise near perfect to me.
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oh my god, I had not made the connection of "Helios Abandoned." that is ROUGH
Loved this game and was very impressed by their ability to pull off an abstract and personal story about grief in an arcadey sci-fi shooter game. Thanks for making a video discussing it! My little contribution will be that in the presidents speech that you discussed in the video that was prepared in case the astronauts in the first moon landing weren't able to return, the president ended it by saying that they had been sacrificed to the "deepest of the deep" which is where you are headed in the final biome of the game. Tons of little details all abstractly weaving together and Housemarque pulled it off. Can't imagine trying to craft a narrative like this with so many loose loose threads that somehow still manage to create something compelling. I hope to see more from this team, because Returnal was truly unique
What a fantastic episode. Love every second of it. Also, thanks for tuning me into Jacob Geller, just subscribed to him too!
Jacob made a video on Returnal and it's really good, just came out today
I typed this as part of a reply, but I broke it out into it's own comment because because... it's a lot.
My own hypotheses about this game (which I adore) are still formulating and permutating... but my thinking is that Atropos is both real and allegorical, as Jacob suggested. Moreover, it's clearly about Selene's grief, but I think more to a point, it's about the concept of 'generational trauma'. (Which is kind of perfect for a roguelite if one considers each loop/life/death as a generation, and the player's ability to become aware of some behaviors and change them, while others are harder to break and ultimately continue to be their downfall, but I digress.)
My read (as it stands currently) -- Theia put her aspirations of being an Astronaut ahead of her relationship with her daughter, Selene, straining their relationship irreparably. This (in my mind) is corroborated by the missed phone calls between Theia and Selene, Selene suggesting that it was supposed to be her mother who traversed the stars, the House 'Kitchen' vignette where Selene/Helios tries desperately to connect with the Astronaut Theia/Selene in spite of the fear of potential rejection for even trying. However, due to Car Crash 1, Theia becomes incapable of fulfilling her destiny, and her relationship with Selene is strained further -- possibly because Theia blames Selene somehow for where here life has led. They become so separate from one another and/or Theia's condition accelerates to a point that Theia feels /alien/ to Selene. (ie, the Act 3 wheelchair scene)
Then, perhaps in spite of her mother's aspirations damaging their relationship but also not wanting to end up where Theia has, Selene opts to join the ASTRA program, ultimately succeeding where her mother could not, but never feeling like she has been freed from the specter of her mother's shadow (the ever looming, always watching, endlessly judging astronaut). As such, Selene never really relishes in this success, rather she feels guilty that she is the one blazing this trail and not Theia. However, in committing herself to the ASTRA program, she begins to neglect Helios, straining their relationship and her own health. She overworks herself (and possibly self-medicates?), causing her to be drowsy on the drive home. This ultimately leads to Car Crash 2, where Helios dies. In some of the recovered audiologs, as Selene appears to be attempting to gain some sort of 'flight clearance' or certification of mental fitness-- she assures the interviewee that the past is in the past and she doesn't think of 'them' anymore and has nothing keeping her 'here', and only wishes to move forward. This 'them' to me indicates both Theia and Helios have passed on at this point, and having nobody else tethering her, Selene pours all of herself into ASTRA/her work, never really grieving or dealing with her traumas, wanting literally to escape them by leaving Earth entirely. She crash lands on Atropos, setting off years and years of repressed emotions and stress, which either fundamentally alters her perception of Atropos ("the house was never really there"), initiates a guilt-suffused nightmare that are the last moments before her death ("it was all a dying dream"), or maybe that's just how Atropos works somehow -- that it looks into you to find the thing you are most affected by, and mercilessly wields it against you in some kind of DEFCON 1 mental warfare protocol ("planet boggart" as a concept would fit right in this game, imo). Any of these could be legitimate to me, if only because it's not really the point. The point appears to be the analysis/allegory of generational trauma.
I say 'generational trauma' because I think a lot of people read that final cutscene of Selene 'becoming' the Astronaut as literal, where I think that too is somewhat allegorical. I don't know how much of this is corroborated by the logs within the game, but I think Theia was literally the person in the Astronaut suit during the Act 3 cutscene. Due to senility or Alzheimer's or something, she's out and about in the suit, lost, and Selene hits her while she's driving that fateful night, killing Theia on impact (the scene cuts to the Astronaut's POV, motionless on the road before cutting back to Selene in the submerged car) and then also resulting in the death of Helios, which Selene blames herself for not being able to save. In one log, Selene says she's seen the jet black skull that lies beneath the helmet of the Astronaut, and in the fight with Ophion we see this skull beneath a helmet as the final phase, in a way that to me is very similar to the way Theia is rendered in the wheelchair later. I think Ophion represents all three lifetimes -- Helios', Selene's and Theia's, inextricably linked. What begins with Theia is passed down to Selene and ultimately affects Helios, and it isn't until Selene forces herself to confront the totality of everything that led to that moment that she's able to 'break' the cycle, by breaking the surface and coming up for air -- common metaphors for people who are dealing with intangible traumas.
There's still a lot of gaps and holes in there still, but that's where I am currently in my analysis of the game, and what I think it's trying to say.
Very cool reading of this very deep and complex story! I would suggest that possibly Selene could not only be the one in the astronaut suit - sent there by whatever machine or power is at the bottom of the abyss, and then the "black skull" beneath the helmet is the first instance of one of her dead bodies becoming a monster and following her - just like when you find your dead bodies in the levels of the game.
The parallels between the crash on the bridge and the crash on Atrophos can't be ignored, and make it hard to believe that both things "really" happened. Selene's crash at the beginning of the game is almost the exact same scene as the crash in the end. If you look out the window of the space ship it appears to be under water. Helios' doll, Octo, is in the back, and when you leave the ship you "abandon" him.
I anticipate there will be a DLC released that will give us some more clues. There is still a door on the ship we have never gotten open, and a door up on the ledge in the first and fourth biomes that is unaccessible. I suspect we will find Helios (Apollo?). It would be cool to play through the levels again as Helios or even just to replay the story with a New Game + option!
What's even trippier is most of the ship logs change to like the opposite of themselves when you switch between the overgrown and echoing ruins
I was intrigued the first time I saw Returnal but wasn’t sold at first. Then I ended up purchasing it and it’s my game of the year so far. It’s that good! The gameplay and story blew my mind and had my jaw on the floor.
Side note, I’m not someone playing rogue lite/like games but I’ve preordered Hades on my PS5 because of Returnal
Im glad you guys are doing this for a few reasons... I dont have a PS5, this is a very interesting game but its not in my wheel house of game genres.. So thank you!
You’re welcome!
God, I love this game so much. Thanks for this discussion! I learned more nuance from the story from you three. So happy to see other people enjoy this awesome game!
You guys talked about this game for almost an hour and I feel like you barely scratched the surface of the story of this game. For instance, did you know the health power up (Silphilum) was an ancient herb that cured disease and mental illness, but also used as birth control/morning after pill? The Obolites (coins - obols) were used as money in ancient Greece, but also were the form of payment needed to pay Cheron to leave the afterlife?
This game has so many layers, but so few answers! Some people think there were two accidents (Theia and Selene) others think there was just one accident. Some people think Theia and Selene are the same person, others think that Helios and Selene are the same person.
I suspect the story was inspired by the writings of Argentine author Jorge Luis Borges, such as The Aleph and Other Stories. They explore themes of two people being the same person, the afterlife, and very high-concept metaphysics (like a magical Aleph that contains the whole universe inside a tiny sphere).
Listened via podcast but wanted to come comment here as well that this was a fantastic discussion! Definitely my favorite Max spoilers and it really made me wish there was a full Deepest Dive into this game. Great group of people and I loved hearing your enthusiasm for the game.
Hopefully we will get some Returnal DLC and MinMax will do a Deepest Dive into the very bottom of this game!
Great show Kyle!
Loved the cerebral sci fi vibes, very Moon-esque. But once I got to the first boss I knew I would never be able to make it through the game. Glad to have you guys to tell me what I would never see myself.
Phrike is tough, but if you can break through, I promise it gets easier!
You might spend a few runs trying to unlock all of the abilities of the weapons (which doesn't reset when you die), then try to clear out all of the rooms in one run with just your pistol, or the first gun you find, then go back and unlock all the weapon chests. This will make sure you have the most powerful gun possible, have tons of power ups, and you should be able to get through the boss without trouble.
Why does everyone think Selene is driving? It has to be Theia. Helios is Selene's brother. There's one car crash. Selene was having a breakdown in an astronaut suit. Her mother crashes and gets paralyzed. The monster that pulls her from the wreck was Selene. Abandoning helios in the process. Everything on the planet is a metaphor. The hivemind and severed are constructs of Selene's mind of what being an Astra scout would be like (since she was rejected from the program).
One of my favourite games of all time... incredible experience
Oh, hey, I love me some original Prey2 talk!
Was so much fun to listen to you guys talk about this game!
Lol, just wanted to say I finally got the Platinum trophy in Returnal while watching this video. Maybe the most frustrating platinum I have ever gotten.
Congrats!
Yeah relying on NRG was terrible for collectibles.
I haven't played the game but just listening to this feels like Solaris might have been an inspiration, in that the planet is a real place but it feeds and blends with the internal psyche of the people within it.
So silent hill?
Its a masterpiece! A real work of art, specially cause everyone has it's own theory about the story
I still believe in the theory that the planet is real. The way it works is that Selene can travel back and forth in time. In the first half of the game, there is a reference to ascension and how the ascended sort of go crazy. I believe this is basically what happened and that Selene ascended and obtained the powers of being able to go back in time as the astronaut to ensure that her younger self would go to space.
Helios, as in Greek mythology, is her brother who died in the womb of her mother, the driver. The cutscene with the wheelchair alien has a bulge indicating that they are pregnant and that alien was supposed to represent Selene’s mom. It was the accident that made Selene resent her mom. Her mom was the rejected astronaut and Selene followed in her footsteps. In the start of biome 4, Selene asks how old Helios is which makes it appear that she is referring to a dead person rather than her ship.
Basically, Selene went back in time to change the fate (Atropos is a god of fate) of her past self so that she could be at this moment, and at the end, she just accepts her destiny and lives in this world forever as an ascended of Atropos.
This would also explain why Selene has no memory of her time there at the beginning yet the audio logs exist. This makes no sense unless Selene had the ability to manipulate time.
This is fascinating.
One thing that sort of lends credence to this, I think, is that the game insinuates that the race of 'aliens' that inhabited Atropos is related to Selene in a more direct way.
She takes all of the technological upgrades from deceased entities on Atropos, and takes notice of the fact that they all fit her suit without any sort of modification, as if they were meant for her. This wasn't brought up in the Max Spoilers at all, but my interpretation of this is that they're all Selene somehow. That in some loops she becomes so utterly changed from her original state that she sort of populates the planet with copies of herself, but their cognizance is affected in such a way that they become sufficiently divergent from the original Selene.
They form their own language, their own history, their own mythos and explanations for what is happening on the planet, to the point that they effectively become their own race unto themselves. The holo-records Selene finds start out looking fully alien, but as you progress they begin to resemble Selene more and more, specifically the 'Observer' ones that require additional effort/upgrades to reach and activate (meaning Selene would be the most likely of all things on the planet to find them). In fact, at one point, she boggles at how expertly they were able to capture her likeness, despite... never having crossed paths with them, at least not ones who weren't in 'Severed' form.
In my mind, it's because she is them. They are all her.
@@OMGLX awesome take, I also believe in that time travel eldritch powers side of the story but I never pondered about if the aliens were her... actually makes sense; some of her logs have ''mad selene severed style'' and more ''normal'' selene
I loved this game. Got the platinum trophy too!
I made it to the last boss from the 3rd boss on in one run and died in the last boss fight. It gets harder for sure once your into the second act trying to get back to the final boss. This game is a masterpiece. I will be finishing it this weekend!
I also believe it's a game about dealing with grief. I hear other theories but I keep going back to this one.
Selene is not the one driving the car. It is actually her mother Thea. There are news clippings of how she was paralyzed in the accident, hence the wheelchair. If you look at the driver of the cars' eyes, she doesn't have heterochromia, where her iris' are two different colors. Selene does have heterochromia so you can easily tell it is not her driving the car.
Awesome podcast!
The characters are based around Greek mythology.
Selene as a character is Greek-American
- "Helios and his sisters Eos and Selene were children of the titans Hyperion and Theia, and were the Gods and Goddesses of the Sun, Dawn and The Moon respectively."
Theia is the Monster in the wheelchair, Selene's mother
Hyperion is the boss at the top of the tower playing the organ, Selene's father
Selene is Moon
Helios is Sun
Eos is sky/dawn
If they follow the exact mythological take then Helios and Selene are brother and sister.
Helios would ride his chariot across the sky from East to West every day. Much as Selene would the moon. Makes for an interesting tid bit as Selene rides in Helios across the sky of Atropos.
There's a lot of symbolism in the game and there appears to some strong symbolism of C\cancer with the malignancy that increases in items as you go further down the depths, though I don't remember seeing anything that directly tied to cancer.
To add, the planet Atropos is also Greek mythology.
- "In Greek mythology, Atropos (from Greek Άτροπος, "without turn") was one of the three Moirae, goddesses of fate and destiny. Her Roman equivalent was Morta. Atropos was the oldest of the Three Fates, and was known as the "inflexible" or "inevitable"." (Selene creating her own inevitable fate?)
I think there's a lot of red herrings and misdirection in the game also. One running theory is that Helios and his mother Theia (The monster in the wheelchair who appears to be pregnant) were in a car crash when Selene was perhaps unborn or not present.
This may be the only car crash and the one we witness and are misdirected into thinking it is Selene due to her and her mother looking very identical from the photo inside the house. Also, Selene has Heterochromia iridium (2 different coloured eyes) where as Theia does not and the driver did not. There is mention that Selene's Heterochromia iridium comes from stress but I'm unsure if that can actually even happen as from what I could read if it does appear in later life it is usually due to underlying issue.
Theia broke her back in the crash, thus the wheelchair and appears to have become resentful and spiteful in later life. This appears to maybe have created tension between Selene and Theia to the point that Selene would burn down the family homestead shown in the visions along with in the artifacts of the charred piano key, melted globe etc.
We do also find a letter where Selene was unsuccessful in her application with ASTRA, which may have actually been her mothers rejection letter as Selene says she's never seen it before although Selene could also just be crazy as the planet/Octopus plays with her mind as she run through purgatory over and over.
I also wonder if the pregnant looking Theia was representative or Selene or Eos.
I myself believe the planet is real but there is a lot going on that's still up in the air.
It's a very messy write up I know. There's still a lot of picking apart to do and some great videos and reddit threads getting about but I do feel there is some more DLC or a sequel needed to fill in more detail as every article, video and thread seem to have different theories currently. At the end of the day who knows, maybe Selene's just batshit crazy and it was her driving and she's just lost the plot.
Edit: Another fun little tid bit. Through the game there are certain points, like the desert for example, where if you look back and at the top of some pillars or building tops the white shadow standing there watching you. Like a white hologram of an astronaut.
Adventure Time did that loop to Finn the Human in one episode. It a very cool idea.
Great podcast! Keep it up 👍👍👍
Missed out on this since I didn't get Playstation 5.
I think the bosses in the latter half of the game getting easier (until the last one which is a Lovecraftian wet dream lol) is narratively intentional. Selene drifting closer and closer to madness has her become more and more assimilated to take on nightmarish creatures. The only exception to this is biome 5 with the 3 severed, but there's no boss after since you've already prooved your assimilation into the world's madness
Returnal is great game.
The only really negative thing about it, is the spawn rate of some of the logs and glyphs needed for the platinum. It took me 17h to get the "secret"/Act 3 ending and 71h to grind out all the collectibles.
Esp. that damn audio log 9, i ran overgrown ruins for it over 100 times...
That seems like a lot of time to needlessly toss hours is it worth it ? Guess it’s about the journey not the destination
What I love about returnal is that it is open to endless interpretations and theories. Like, I've had a few that I've shared with friends who I've showed the game to and hey have come back to me with an altered viewpoint. Just got the true ending now and think I've done all I need to. What a game, what a journey. I almost wanted to throw my PS5 out of the window but overall, no regrets.
I am not one of the 6 people who own a PS5 so I will have to wait, but I'll be back!
I thought there was one car crash, Selenes mom looks like her but she saved her mom as a child but couldn't save her brother (Helios) as well. It also ladders up with Greek mythology more with Selene and Helios being siblings and Theia and Hyperion being the parents. But too trippy at times to be sure, but 2 car crashes would be too contrived for me, I also feel it all being imagination is too 1 sided. I think something on the planet is playing with her psych like it did the aliens and slowly driving her mad.
What about the burned house scene?
I think Selene burned it down, that's why it's stone in the secret ending
Spoilers for the game:
The "it was all in her head"/manifestation of her grief twist really did not work for me at all and soured me on continuing to play, because it strips away a lot of the agency from your immediate actions and makes a lot of the red herrings (like the alien civilization lore) especially irrelevant. That being said your guyses discussion was great and had me appreciate the little details around how the devs manifest her grief a lot more.
I'm actually more with Jacob in this discussion in that I don't really think it's all in her head. I kind of think of it more in the Miyazaki "My Neighbor Totoro" camp, where there's a very blurry line between imagination and what's real.
I don’t believe Atropos is in her head.
FINALLY! Please make sense out of this game please.
Love the talks about this game and I love the game too! My only major criticism for the game was the story. Ambiguous storytelling is really popular nowadays and I just don't feel like they hit the mark on this one at all. It kept me interested for a while, but at the same time it was never fulfilling to me. It felt like they couldn't decide if they wanted to go with the alien planet theme or the mental breakdown into insanity theme. It seemed to kind of contradict it's storytelling very often and I wasn't a fan. They tied it in relatively well most notably for me would be the 4th boss, the music one. But even still, it was just... off? Or maybe 'unfinished' would be a better word. Idk
I can't think of the exact examples right now as I didn't know I'd be making a comment on it, but all the same.
I loved literally every other part about it. If they had just kept with the alien planet theme this game would be an easy 10/10 for me, but because it literally went off the 'deep end'(lol) with it's story, I gotta give it a 9. It honestly was off putting for me where normally I would be more intrigued by a story like this.
I agree that the ambiguous nature of the story is a negative for the game. The fact there is almost NOTHING we are certain of in the story is disappointing. It would have at least been nice if we knew exactly what happened with the crash on the bridge - we don't even know for sure if the child died or not! Selene never speaks of Helios, except to say that "he didn't survive" and she is "abandoning" him, but there is no grief or sadness in her voice when she says this, so it seems she is just talking about the spaceship.
I am hopeful some DLC will give some concrete answers, but I'm sure we will never get a full explanation of the events of the game.
I beat the final ending with 86 deaths, which actually is not a shit ton. I've seen people with 350+
I will say I don't subscribe to the 'purgatory' and 'all in her head' theories. I think everything is real, and for two reasons:
1.) It makes all of the lore in the game mean nothing if it's not, be it the computer logs or the information about the severed and the machines.
2.) The devs specifically called out Lovecraftian horror as an inspiration and how there are "Cosmic forces" at work, and I think some sort of elder god trying to lure people with deep repressed emotional trauma to a planet that traps them forever to experience that trauma and confront it seems pretty Lovecraftian to me.
totally agree. It feels like selene actually ascend and use the powers of the eldritch monster (ALA bloodborn ending). she, trying to stop the loop for ever hapenning actually cause her to be trapped by shooting Helios spacecraft; then by being the astronaut and causing the accident. a lot for intrepretation yes, but I think everything being real but intermingle with HP/david lynch style of story telling is what the dev were after. There is a lot of book also about the deterministic nature of fate (time travel always happens and was her destiny)
I agree with this. It can be both a real sci-fi story and an allegorical journey
My impression of the audio logs is that they are like alternate timelines, like a potential outcome of what can happen, like when she says stuff like "that is not me" or "I will never become that" when the audio logs start sounding more and more insane.
And maybe it's basically like a Silent Hill timeloop planet. 😅
Doesnt the child survive the car crash? And what is the deal with celine’s different colored eyes?
I'm pretty sure selene is the child in the crash, and her mother is driving. The driver doesn't have heterochromia, which selene does. It is clearly visible in the cutscene.
Toward the beginning one of the guys says that they liked inside, where they don’t spoon feed you what’s going on. I hate limbo, because there doesn’t seem to actually be a story. They created the game to be “mysterious” in such a way that the player feels like there’s a story that they just aren’t figuring out. Return all felt the same way. Rather than construct a clever narrative and build the game around it, the devs just made a game that *feels like* there’s a narrative. Can’t blame them, must be easier than writing a cohesive narrative.
I said Limbo, the second time, that should also say Inside. I liked Limbo a lot, Inside I found a little easy and narrative void
So you are saying that nemesis with is the hardest boss you did it with ease 😱
GOTY for me at the moment
goty for me
Phenomenal game but the post-game/Act 3 is such a let down. Feels like lame busy work instead of anything interesting or a cool new challenge. I don't consider it part of the main game which is otherwise near perfect to me.
It’s pronounced “free-Kee” and he is a she.