Is This The Best Push Stick Ever? - The Table Saw According To John
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- Опубліковано 14 тра 2017
- This has potential, but would take some time to get good with. So it's definitely worth a try if you are just starting out using a table saw and are not used to using a certain type yet.
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I have made several on that design over the years and I love them.
I love your insight and experience on often overlooked, but very fundamental issues like this. I really appreciate the content you produce on all your channels.
Thus far doing very casual, infrequent work, I have only used the stock push stick like the one you have there, and a plywood clone of it for side pressure.
I want to take some scraps and make a few mock ups. I like the L-shape and the triangular style pushers I see some other makers using. I think it's a very happy middle to your preference and the safety police. The peak of the triangle can help you keep leverage down and forward while getting your hand a ""comfortable"" distance from the blade.
I printed out your push stick template and it works great, you can feel what's going on with the work and it has plenty of downward leverage to keep things planted on the table top. I've never had a lot of faith in the factory sticks, they feel like using a pair of stilts to push the material through
Great tips there!! I've been doing some of those things wrong, you may have saved me an ER trip!
i really like your videos. they are informative but at the same time you always make me laugh. keep up the good work.
I like the shorter version and I have been using it since I first saw it on your video. I downloaded "The Pusher" template and made a bunch of them and after 3 years I still use the first one and still have the "bunch" I made.
When I was in junior high school, (back in olden times when boys took wood shop and girl's took home ec.) before we could use the table saw we had to make a push stick with a coping saw, and hand rip saw. It looked very similar to John's. The difference was in that from the contact notch to the back spine was 4" tall instead of today's popular 2" tall, and the handle had sexier curves. The additional 2 inches kept your hand further from the blade. Oh! and our shop teacher taught us, only expose the blade to clear the gullets from the cut, blade height mattered. Our push sticks were made from 3/4" stock, we were told the wider contact area provided better support. If the push stick got cut when cutting narrow stock was not an issue, after all we had the skills to make a new one, when the old one got too chewed up.
Thanks for the analysis! Whenever I rip on my table saw, my mind goes back to that kickback testing video where Tom Hintz almost got his hand sucked into the blade. So I just have felt more comfortable with the two-pushstick method, keeping my hand farther away if something went wrong. But like you point out, the front of the board will kick up in a hurry! It'd be nice to have the hold-down capability you get in your go-to design. I'll give your new version a try.
I'm fairly new to table saws, but have been in engineering for 40yrs and know when a risk exists.
Totality agreed that push sticks, that come with most DIY table saws, have little control keeping the stock on the table especially with an old blade. Your video has inspired me to make one of your design's, thanks for this tip and for all the others
I have been using your push stick design for a few years now. I added about an inch to the handle length for hand position above a fence accessory. I also feel more control with your design. I say your design because I used your template. Thank You for your work and information.
what you need is Steve Ramsey to show you his, MICRO JIG, MAKER OF THE GRR-RIPPER
I think of that type of push stick as a foot-shaped stick. The part that contacts the board is the foot, the part that pushes in the back is the heel, and the part that you grab is the ankle (or leg).
The problem with your longer foot-shaped push stick is that the leg attaches near the heel at the rear. While this is good for a real leg, it is not so good for a push stick. You need the leg attaching somewhere in the front third of the foot in order to get the balance and leverage to be optimal. The better design would look a little bit like a V-shape with the V laying on its side (with the top bit of the V curling up at the end, and the bottom part of the V having a heel on it to push).
Good video. I like the way you trained yourself to use your left hand as a guide and I never see you push the work with your left hand past a certain point. I try and use a series of home made push pads and sticks so as to keep my hand away from the blade, but it's hard to beat the secure feeling of using your hand on the work piece.
Your original is my preferred push stick. I have three or four of them running around the shop. Your exactly right, you don't get as much positive pressure with the other style.
Extremely helpful. Thanks.
As a new subscriber I am guessing that you get a lot of critics and know-it-alls about your technique and shop saftey? I trust you, great videos!
Yeah ... The 'safety police' get after John every so often, but they don't get far ... he gives it right back to them! I have been a subscriber for years, and have never seen him do anything I would consider to be un-safe.
Ordinarily I wouldn't respond to drivel like this, but I would like to point out that the only thing you accomplish by calling somebody out in a public forum is to tick them off. You're not going change anyone's attitude or behavior. Sort of like peeing in a blue serge suit ... you might feel all warm and fuzzy but nobody notices until they figure out you smell like pee.
I generally delete "safety" comments in my regular videos, and often ban the commenter as well, if that's all they have to say. No one, other than the trolls that need feeding, puts any stock into what a random nobody says in the comment section regarding safety. No one with any brains in their head, anyway.
The fact is that I don't use any of my tools in an unsafe way and on top of that, I'm not responsible for the incompetent actions of others if they ignore the reality that I have a level of experience using these tools that doesn't come from watching videos. Anyone that has any real experience will recognize someone that knows what he is doing, and those that don't don't should understand their own limitations. You don't say one day "I'm going to be a pilot" and then the next take the captain's seat on a commercial airliner.
Bill Zill - if you want to peach your ideas on safety, take the next step and set up your own channel here on UA-cam to do just that. If I see any of your nonsense in any of my other videos, you'll lose your commenting privileges here and on my other three channels. I need annoying busybodies hanging around like I need an asshole in my elbow.
I Build It Scrap Bin I still feel honored that you replied to me, I love all 3 of your channels!
the greatest show on earth ,and best push
Yes your so right. Norm did use one just like that. Still watching him here in the uk
I made a very similar stick years ago. It works great
I recently switch to a pushstick like the one you normally use and I prefer it a lot to the typical plastic ones that come with some tablesaws. Like you said, much more control than using the long skinny ones. And way cheaper than the Gripper.
Yup! i made a similar stye push stick sometime ago and just couldn't get used to it. I almost elusively went back to using your normal style push stick. (P.S. I think Izzy calls that L style style a "push shoe", i've never heard anyone else use that name but it seems fitting enough)
woodworking and a smashing pumpkins shirt? earned a like.
I once used the two stick method for pushing stock through and the stick in my left hand touched the blade and it got ripped from my hand and flew back and hit me right in the nuts. When that happened I obviously flinched and the board in the saw then kicked back and hit me in the stomach. Holy shit double whammy. Needless to say I have never used the double dangerous push stick method since and never had another kick back. Thanks for the great vids.
Geek Woodworker thanks for boosting my confidence. I have to use the table saw today at school
I think there is room for various push stick designs. You make a good point about design, I will make one of this style, but I would still try to use the long push stick, but keep 1 like yours on hand in case of lifting...I really only object to the designs with holes for handles. I'm sure it's a non-problem, but holes make the hold seem like you can cut yourself without seeing it. A remote possibility, I'm sure.
I too prefer the design of the first push stick you talked about, John. I've been using that type for quite a while myself. I prefer it for many of the reasons you mentioned, but also the fact that with your wrist being straight as you're using it, should it slip, your hand would continue moving straight forward - not downward, toward the blade. It just feels more comfortable and more "natural" to me. You know the deal though - to each their own. I figure if you like the push stick you're using, go for it.
cool gonna make one. do u think angling the bottom tooth for more of a bite would help and how about adding sandaper to the contacts?
Hi
Nice video , thanks a lot.
Can you please tell what table saw you have?
thank you
I like Frank Howarth's one, it's clever and pretty much combines the best of both of these types of pushsticks.
Looks alright the me John, for myself though I would bring the handle down by 4 ".
I prefer your original push stick ... good positive control. I made a pile of them about 5 years ago ... the only modification I made was putting a little birds-mouth on the tip (makes it easier to reach across the top of my cabinet saw).
If i am left-handed, is it best to stand to the right-hand side of the blade and pull against the fence?
I don't use power tools, I work unplugged but, I have used power tools in the past and enjoyed them. I'm amazed though that this process of pushing the material through hasn't been mechanized by now with some sort of turn handle and cog system.... could you design a way whereby a push stick can replaced with a turn handle system fixed to the fence? Something that when you turn the handle the system pushes it through for you? The push stick still looks an old fashioned and dangerous method for 21st century. Oh, p.s.... Love the vids, keep up the good work John. :)
3 months ago, I had my second bad experience on my table saw. The first was a kick back on a 1/4" piece of ply that left me with a significant bruise on my stomach. This was caused because my blade was way too high for the material. This was many years ago and, since then, I have made it a practice to set my blade so it just clears the material by about 1/8" to 1/4". Now for my most recent incident. I was ripping 3/4" stock I had my blade height set and the rest is a blank. I,somehow, managed to push my left thumb across the spinning blade. All I felt was a buzz on my thumb and I saw blood being splattered everywhere . After a visit with the seamstress at emergency and 6 stitches later, I still have my thumb intact. That 1/4" inch cut has left my thumb useful but numb as I severed the nerve. Now, for all you woodworkers who like to leave your blade set nice and high, be warned! I would have lost my thumb.
For what it’s worth, I glue a strip of 240 grit paper on the underside of the stick to lessen the chance of it sliding around. My stick is a compromise between the commercial one and your “tricked up prototype”, ie slightly lower handle.
New-ish to woodworking but so far I like the feel of using Matthias' push sticks - still haven't tested yours though so I can't say definitively. For what you described at 5:30 it depends but I might just let the tip of the push stick get cut by the blade a little bit since the blade's only just above the work. Or for bigger pieces, at that point I likely have the splitter and anti-kickback pawls engaged and can just do the quick hop and push through as you showed.
With the new design you showed would there be a risk of it splitting along the grain (where the angle of the pushstick crosses the grain direction) potentially throwing your hand into the blade, especially if you're really bearing down on it? Maybe mitigated by using plywood or thick and sturdy wood?
I have chipped a carbide tip on the plastic push stick. I use one almost like yours, I agree its the best.
if you chipped a carbide tip on plastic, you are using less than Harbor Freight quality blades......Dollar Tree perhaps?
Great ergonomics
Good push stick: wonderful. Add riving knife to your table saw: priceless.
Thanks
that is a good idea with your new push stick. I can understand why you feel not very comfortable with the new one. I think the problem is the direction of the handle; it leans backward (toward to your body). You can try to make the handle to lean forward about 35 degree from the virtual vertical line . That will make you more comfortable because you lean to it and so have more control on it. I don't know I just guess like that.
This has potential, but would take some time to get good with. So it's definitely worth a try if you are just starting out using a table saw and are not used to using a certain type yet.
You can help support the work I do in making these videos:
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I have a few simple rules when I cut on a table saw, 1) the table is "a no hand" zone, not on, above nor below. 2) always use some sort of blade guard. If I can't do the cut without braking these rules, then I don't do the cut!
I try to follow these same rules. Instead of putting my left hand on the table I use a feather board to keep the wood firmly against the fence. Blade guard and riving knife in place.
@@rod1148 Great rule, I have heard about so many who got hurt, maybe after 50 years at the saw. They got for comfortable and felt they had totally the skills and control. Never ever break from your rule, it is to stupid to lose a limb, just because it was late, you thought you did just make the last cut and the feather board were "all over here". :-)
I only got one thing to say in response to some of these comments. "Accidents are called accidents for a reason"..... Nuf Said !
I wonder if making the handle come out more towards the middle or the front of the stick instead of the back would put more force in front of the fulcrum point and make it rock less.
deriquez I was thinking this as well. And maybe a little less of an angle, coming up a little straighter.
Just extend the handle on your style, so you maintain the pressure OVER the base. Good thought though.
This. I'm a wimp when it comes to a table saw so I want a little more hand to blade clearance. A longer handle on the original design would work just the same.
Tim Johnson I had the same thought. I think though his point is that if the blade is adjusted to the height of the wood you will always have enough clearance from your hand. But I don't see why a little extra would hurt.
Right! You don't need the handle way back in order to stay clear of the blade. Just higher will do.
If you use a saw with a crown guard or overhead guard the long necked style is useful because it can get cramped in there.
I personally feel the opposite of what you say with regards to grip and angle of wrists, but I suppose it's a matter of what you are used to. Maybe peoples muscles are strong in different ways due to the lives they lead, which affects what they prefer.
I have always used the Wandel two stick system and I feel I have lots of control, I can have felt stuff lifting but held it down with the other stick. I believe I will try out your original design as I can see there are pros and cons to every design. Jay Bates also has an interesting design. I also noticed Kyle toth (a woodturner) had something that looked like your design but a different style of grip (the angled wrist grip).
what's important is not touching the blade lmao JFC you're a fuckin God John
Just looked the video without audio(kid going to sleep) and went through comments but did not see any posts similar to my experience.
Speaking only about push stick being caught by saw disc.
I like and use only boomerang´ish shaped push sticks (holding like bread knife) because in case of kickback they get pushed/thrown out of your hand. If you push with your palm then serious kickback goes through your wrist possibly dislocating it, rather than slap on the fingers (by flying push stick). In 10 years I have had two plastic push sticks "explode" on kickback with plastic splinters slightly embedded in my skin... When you are making 400 narrow cuts in a row things happen you know....
I only use push sticks when I can't get 1/2 inch clearance for my hand. I see a lot of comments about people not using push sticks and how bad that is. I have also seen many instances where the push stick makes it more likely to have a slip.
The blade or router bit is spinning in a set location so you just need to be aware of the direction and pressure of your push with your hands. The blade isn't going to come and get you, you have to put your finger into it. You need to be fully engaged mentally in what you are doing.If you have to push hard, take a smaller cut or get a sharper tool. If you are having a bad day or you are distracted or bored or hungover, get out of the shop.
I have done industrial sewing for nearly 30 years and machinists have their hands within 1/8 inch of the rapidly moving needle many times every day. This is where I get my confidence around machines and my respect for the harm that they can do, a needle stick from a large machine can split a finger bone like a fat nail through a skinny bit of wood.
Safety trolls need to keep a lid on it or demonstrate a safer way in their own video. Rant Over
...eh....yeah!
I mean: you have to be fully engaged, that's the main point
Push sticks have never appealed to me. Puts operator in target zone of kickback for a start. Better to stand behind a modified fence, a standard fence screwed on top of a small sheet of 9mm ply that protrudes about 100mm from fence giving room for hands. Front and back of work is held, no problem keeping it within 9mm of table surface. Never come upon a situation yet where does not work, although there probably are limitations.
I think Matthias has the best ones. :)
If you can let go and pivot left as your feel the kickback happening then the hell with the shed doors (yea, the last piece of cherry I had when thru them). I can buy more lumber for less than the medical bills. That's the value of a good push stick. BTW, It happens faster than you can react!
I use your original design, more or less, depending on how sloppily I made it. Don't know where I learned that, but definitely pre-internet, so likely from Norm.
I use the long plastic ones for holding smaller work against the fence, but like you I use my hand for that most of the time. I'm about a year older than you and it sounds like we were taught about the same things. Like you, I still have all my fingers. I think the preference might be an age thing as much as anything else. We learned in a much different time and are comfortable with our methods.
I was wondering if you ever tried the Grrrippper and if you liked it.I keep seeing guys use it and sometimes I think it's cool and other times it looks awkward.
been using yours for a year now. I don't think I'd try anything else.
no need to mess with the best. I used to use the ones like Matthias uses but after a kick back with that caused my wrist to flip forward into the blade I won't use it again.
I agree the blade should be no higher than necessary to make the cut but I believe that the necessary minimum should allow the gullets in the blade to clear the top of the work piece for chip removal.
Received a good tip from a fellow who lost fingers on a table saw (obviously not using the technique at the time) When ripping, always keep as many fingers over the fence as possible. I usually keep 3 over the fence and use my thumb and forefinger to push the material through. This way your hand is anchored on the fence and will not get thrown into the blade if something goes to shit when you ripping. I also use this rule: ...When your fingers are anchored over the fence and you can reach the blade with your thumb or finger stretched out...USE A PUSH STICK!! Some posts here mention using 2x4s etc. for push sticks. I read an article on the dangers of using solid materials for push sticks. If a crack develops in the material you're unaware of due to being dropped on concrete floor etc. (especially hard wood) and it decides to come apart while applying force when ripping, one can imagine the potential consequences. Use plywood or plastic...anything but solid.By all means, share your thoughts.
You alright brotha? Getting the sawdust lung?
I love it , controversy is great
I agree with your philosophy completely. That said, my stick is lazier and cheaper than yours; it's just a piece of 2X4 on edge with a small hook tacked to the end. The stick is basically free and I think of it as sacrificial. It's not as good looking as yours but it has the advantage of holding both sides of the cut when cutting thin strips.
Those birdsmouth push sticks make good kindling, that's about it, haha.
you don't want to use a lot of force when your hands get near moving machinery or anything sharp for that matter. Depending on your experience you then either use longer sticks which give less control or get closer to the work when you know what you're doing.
I also like to use feather boards
Great design but why not a featherboard vs your left hand???
You have 100x more experience than I do and I listened carefully to all you have to say and it all makes good sense. But ... I guess I question some of your risk assessments and would like your opinion if you would like to comment. In my humble experience the reason people use long push sticks (which I agree give less control) is that the risk is that if unpredictable shit goes wrong (knot or nail in wood, weird twists in wood suddenly releasing tensions and twisting the wood that was thought straight) that stuff can go wrong faster than your draw and they want their hands as far away as possible from the blade. Seems rational to me. I'd rather sacrifice the work than my hand. Best regards.
Lose control or let go of the stock while it's being cut can inflict as much or more damage than getting cut directly with the blade, and happens way more often. For maximum safety, you need complete control over the stock as it passes through the saw and you don't get that by operating remotely.
i think the best way to include both aspects of the push sticks is to do what frank howarth did with his saw push stick
I feel the distant between the base and the handle should be about 2 inch shorter to give us the feel that you were talking about
(Nodding respectfully)
If you were to add a brace that contacts and cradles your wrist (similar to a pair of crutches) you could apply more downward force and prevent lateral rotation of the new push stick design. Maybe add a piece of PVC pipe cut in half lengthwise to form an open channel.
I like your original design and plan to make one like it.
Must have half a dozen of the squat L shaped pushers dotted around the workshop. That way there's no excuse for not picking one up whenever I go to any of the machines.
(If you leave them by the machine they tend to walk off with other folk)
the second style of pusch stick is more convenient in combination whit a blade guard because it's in the way whit narrow rip cuts so you can't use the first style
Looking at you Matthias.
Fence feather boards?
The hand is without a doubt the best at anything push stick, hold down, hammer, prise bar etc, it is limited insofar as it is not sacrificial; and hurt ssensibly though. The best push stick is the sacrificial one that is wide covers over the endow the cost timber as well as the of cut and allows the user too push the both pieces past the blade. It holds down the two items of the cut securely ad the top side of the blade cuts into the push block., it cannot fall over and prevents kick back entirely When it is cut away too much make a new one.
How about feather boards?
The center of gravity is off. Put the handle in the middle of where the pressure would be. A more triangle shape would give more control if the handle is more forward then back.
When I did a health and safety course on wood machine safety at The London Furniture college we were always taught never to remove the crown guard and riving knife bless you want to loose your fingers. Also the problems of the wood lifting and kickback.
We were also taught to make our own push sticks out of pieces of scrap wood.
Guards and riving knives don't save finger, paying attention to what you are doing does. Also knowing how to use the tool competently goes a long way.
I was referring to the context of wood riding up on the blade and being thrown towards the user (Kick back).
I know that they don't save fingers as I saw my head of faculty run his finger into a circular saw blade due to distraction of children around the circular saw.
But I have seen wood being thrown out of a circular saw due to it riding up the blade and being pushed out of the saw.
I used to make all my own push sticks myself out of scrap wood. I think it is important to have training on the use of all powered woodworking machinery as a matter of safety.
When I started woking in a design technology department it took three accidents before my employer sent me on a mandatory wood machine safety course.
If it's good enough for Norm it's good enough for me.
Just like "each tool has a different purpose", I like to think that different push sticks are good for different purposes. So maybe having a couple different styles could be beneficial. That said, I see a lot of people using the "Gripper". Don't own one, never used one, so I am not sure if they are good or not. What say you?
That rocking you mentioned at the end is exactly what I was thinking before you said it. I see it as a very dangerous design because your likely to not notice the back lip lifting above the edge of the work piece totally negating its function. I love your original design and use it above all others.
Yes, but I think with enough practice, you can get a good feel for it and not have that problem. I much prefer the positive contact and kung fu grip like hold of my original, though.
I Build It Scrap Bin - You know king fu?!
Blade height, if you can see the Blade coming thru the wood the cutting is over. you don't need the Blade higher that.
P.S You have 2 hands, use them, control your work.
The way you can tell it's not the best push stick ever is that there's only one of it.
:)
And you gave away the free pdf, seems better than others anyway ...
Well I'd say the next evolution is something the size of a hockey stick.
Nice tests and info! Could always use two 6ft sticks taped to your arms from furter back using hockey gear for more safety when pushing the workpiece thru lol.
Hmm...I still prefer your normal push stick. I've been using your normal style one for years now.
Maybe if it's not that long and with the handle pointing down instead of up?
It's indeed one of the better push sticks, however, without a riving knife/splitter, this is still as dangerous as using a lesser push stick with a riving knife.
To me keeping the blade height at a minimum is a safety concern. I notice no difference in cutting high or low blade.
Might be a daft question but where is he from ? U.K. USA Canada ?
Pyro killer Canada I think
yes....
the distance means less control imho
Your best push sticks were the 8 foot long ones you used a few years back
Push sticks that long is like dancing on stilts.
...across a pit of alligators.
Maybe if you make it afew inches shorter, it'll have a better few of the cut.
why not take your regular push stick, extend the handle up maybe 3", not too much, then angle in over the front. Gives you a bit more more air gap between you and the blade and maintains the leverage that provides the positive contact much better than the one you just made. Basically, just a taller version of your normal model.
Several reasons, that I can think of.
Like what? Maybe I wasn't clear... I'm just envisioning a slightly taller version of the push stick design your normally use. (not the one you tested in the video) I think the pushstick design you offer is fine, but if the only complaint someone has is that their hand is too close to the blade, just make it a bit taller so your hand is a little further away.
Making it taller makes it less stable - easier to get kicked out or lifted up on the end. That extra height also means more down force is needed to hold the stock, making your hand travel down toward the blade if anything happens. The new one I made in the video is different, it's held at an angle and therefore can be longer.
I compared all of this to checkers vs chess before, the ability and the understanding to see the different sides of the problem correctly, rather than just focusing on one thing.
By the way, as illustrated in the video, that "closeness" to the blade is an illusion. It's people being irrationally afraid of a perceived minimum safe distance. If scaled and applied to something that actually often fatally dangerous, we'd all be driving on highways and streets that are 200 feet wide to maintain enough clearance.
I like the 2 stick method because it's the safest, easiest on my back, and has the best control.
instantsiv until the work flies back and hits you in the face or the nuts. Then you might consider trying other options.
I stand off to the side. Thats another benefit. Because the sticks are like 1-1/2 to 2 ft it creates so much distance that I can easily get out of the kickback path and still have control of the work piece.
the new one is longer, your old one will have better control and is more stable.
All these people using chopsticks to push the wood through the saw at arms length are all concerned with kickback and such because they are not in control of the work and that is why it kicks back. I also much prefer to eliminate kickback by never letting go of the work and maintaining control of it. I only use push sticks when there just is not enough room for my fingers/hand. I am so glad you pointed this out.
A zero clearance blade insert that is dead nuts flush to the table surface is also an important improvement to keep smaller pieces from dipping into the blade.
I've been using a table saw for over 25 years and not had kickback except once when I learned why you should never have the fence set beside the saw blade during off cutting (the precise situation of having an uncontrolled piece of wood caught between the fence and the blade). I have nearly stalled out my 3hp cabinet saw cutting a piece of black walnut that decided to pinch the blade and started to ride up, but by firmly controlling the wood I hit the stop button with my thigh and safely shut off the saw. If you use push sticks when they are not necessary you will 100% get kickback, wrecking your wood and potentially damaging your saw. Safety is accomplished by understanding how the tools work, what the hazards are and making sure you take appropriate steps to mitigate the hazards. A riving knife, if properly designed and sized is a good thing to have, a traditional american style splitter guard on the other hand is a huge safety hazard and should be immediately thrown in the garbage in my opinion. Fortunately, most new saw are coming equipped with riving knives.
The most important point is to maintain control of the work and the tool. Any device that reduces your ability to control either is a hazard in my opinion. This applies to every tool you use, whether a simple hand tool, a portable power tool or a stationary power tool. You are either the master of the tool or its victim.
the best one is the one you use.
I was hoping for a gag video with a 3' long push stick.
i has made woodwork at tablesaw 35 year and no newer has cut finger, first model bush stick have best need only adjustable back piece and vide wood then have best.this stick idea have world dangerous model what i has newer my life seeing. ok, can use but if have smart forget all stupid stick.
i agree ,lol ,