Swapping From AGM to Lithium Batteries on a Sailboat

[@OutChasingStars]

Hey all. Sorry for the delay in replies. We've been out cruising with limited access to internet. I'll go through and answer comments below, but it appears several questions have come up about the cost of the project. Here it is in USD:
Hardware: $15,374.68
Labor: $9,006.69
Misc. Materials: $3,169.15
Total Cost: $27,550.52
We've also updated our blog post with a more detailed break down of the hardware costs so you can check that out if you're curious. (Link in the description)
Yes, we know that this was an expensive project. And yes, we know that we are fortunate that we could afford to do it. But lithium seems to be the way of the future and we're really excited about the changes it will mean for our cruising style. So for us, it was worth it.
Thanks for watching!

[@MrLikeke]

I had guessed $25 - 27K. I think that is a fair price for all of what you have described. That plus the professional service and the client support gives peace of mind knowing you did well.

[@VeganV5912]

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.

[@rszkodzi]

As an engineer I really really enjoyed the nerd speak. I love listening to the thought process and you listing the specifications. Great video.

[@Dreams.catamaran]

Awesome, Great explanation of why and what. Thank you

[@ahawk850]

Wow, a lot of very basic - but not thought about issues I gained insight about from your video report. Thanks you so much. I am looking to buy and restore / upgrade a catamaran in the near future - so again, thanks for your insights

[@OutChasingStars]

That's exactly why I wanted to make this video. I think lithium is the way of the future, but it's not just a swap out, plug and play sort of situation. There are definitely some issues that need to be thought through and addressed.

[@goralki]

Very eloquently presented and easy to understand. Can't fathom why cat manufacturers are not offering lithium as standard, as this is the only way in the future.

[@4WillNoJoke]

All of these issues are common basic troubleshooting and complications normally experiences and air models flying over the past 40 years or more! Good video! Abec, speed controller, gps, charger, amperage and telemetry, all the same.

[@TonyK3130]

Outstanding video. Clearly not low cost; but, if you are needing a change anyway, having a long term vision is important.

[@OutChasingStars]

You're absolutely right. We figured that if we were going to make the change, now would be the time to do it so we can get the maximum life out of the system for however long we own the boat.

[@gustavomonteiro2793]

Good presentation of possible problems and solutions.
Always good to avoid trouble.
Thanks.

[@giovannifiorentino8947]

Great video and even better description with useful and complete references. Thank you for sharing.

[@melee401]

Keeping lifepo 4 batteries at a topping level of 90% increases their life span as too does keeping the bottom at or above 30%. So the total available AH increase when these two charging points top and bottom are taken into consideration for longevity is only 10% over LABs. This is important on marine applications as most are not going to be running the air conditioning all the time to keep their batteries at the 72-74 degrees F recommended for good life span. At 92 degrees F the lifepo 4 batteries lose half their life expectancy. So the number of EXPECTED charge cycles is going to drop dramatically with increased cabin temperatures (in your case). The issues with charge rate times is a great point for those without a large generator and even those with one to get a high end wind generator (or two). While it is true that the wind does not always blow, it does a better job IMHO than a sun that too does not always shine. Let's face it, we are wind driven bunch here. We go when the wind blows unless one enjoys burning fuel. In that case, a sailboat is not the smartest decision anyway. So again IMHO the only two real selling points for lifepo 4 batteries are lighter weight and lower volume pr AH, and ability to get in a faster charge rate. Unless you are planning to keep the storage area they are in at 72-74 F AND keep the charge levels between 30-90% you will never see the advertised charge cycles from them. In that event the value takes a rather serious hit for people whose storage area is regularly in the temperature range of the low 90s (F). On many boats that is a daily occurrence in many cruising destinations. In addition to that, because you chose to string together 3.3V cells (as many have) you had the added expense of a high amperage 3.3V parallel charger. Many do not understand this issue as Winston is the only 3.3V cell provider who I have seen bother to explain the need for parallel charging on these systems. The better 12V platforms have automatic cell elimination built in should one of the 3.3V sub cells go on the fritz as well as onboard 3.3V parallel charge circuiting and independent cell charge monitoring. However 100 AH is going to run you 1,200 dollar or so. There you would have been looking at 8,400 USD (before shipping and taxation) for 700 AH of storage but would have eliminated the complexities of the external parallel charging circuits and independent cell monitoring boards. Even if an entire 12V bank goes down on you there you could always eliminate it and just run on 600 AH until a replacement is gotten. However, overall I think you did a very fine job there with what you used.

[@ryszardjacekrusniak7993]

Thank you for such elaborative explanation/warning about lithium batteries. What are the best lead acid batteries? What is your opinion on late carbon batteries?

[@bigreidy]

Great video as usual guys, good clear explanation David, sounds like you have taken the time to learn and understand quite a complex lithium solution. Fair winds guys.

[@OutChasingStars]

Thanks Craig! There was a LOT of research that went into the project. It never fails. There's always more to learn about boats!

[@geoffthefarmer]

Great video.Batteries are so important for full time live aboards. FYI Tesla recommend that you charge your Li batteries to 85-90% to extend the life of the battery pack. If you have a long trip then you go to 100%.

[@motorstunter]

true that. its better not to top off the lithiums when you don't need to.

[@allynonderdonk7577]

You should get a Phasor/NegGen 3.5 kw to fill that old battery space(If it will fit). It would allow you to run at least one air conditioner all the time and do other stuff instead of burning the big one to stay comfortable. They use about 1/5 a gallon per hour, and all day can be done on about 4 gallons of fuel. With a place to live away from the heat, which is what I really hate sometimes as fans don't always cut it! I am getting 10 Firefly Oasis carbon foam batteries for my boat. They will set me back about $4300, but do give a full 1100AH as opposed to regular AGM at 50%. They also don't need to be topped up generally and can stay at 50-85% all day everyday for the most part. Since they are going on a monohull, it really doesn't matter that they weigh about the same as AGM. I wanted lithium, but for 1100AH I couldn't handle changing all my circuitry, and the install would have easily set me back 14-18k. These batteries with a bank this large should give me close to 10 years of performance and within 80- 90% of a lithium bank longevity. No matter how many cycles the manufacturer tells you the battery will take...regardless of the number of times they are used age will take them down anyway as the chemical makeup degrades.

[@OutChasingStars]

If we were designing a new boat build from scratch, I'd give very serious consideration to a small generator. However, we have our big behemoth so we'll just use her for the time being. :)
I've heard good things about the Carbon Foam batteries so you'll have to let me know how your experience goes!

[@melee401]

Thanks for the Fire Fly carbon foam battery info. This looks like a great place for those who do not want to entail all the issues and expense inherent with lifepo 4 arrays but need more storage flexibility. That sulfation issue and need to top the charge regularly are two real issues with LABs.

[@mitchpender8113]

One thing to remember with any lithium batteries is good charge control , some types are worse than others but if a battery combusts, most likely it will be impossible to extinguish until it has expended its considerable energy.

[@OutChasingStars]

Absolutely. That's why we didn't want to do a straight AGM to Lithium swap and instead practically redesigned our entire electrical system. Lithiums can be game changing, but they must be done right.

[@thedolphin5428]

1:20, re costs, for those considering such a changeover.
Never compare JUST the battery cost of AGM > Lithium conversion. By the time I had researched, bought, installed all the necessary Lithium system extras (including a bigger alternator with external regulator to safely take proper advantage of the lithium bulk charging, alternator protection device, temp senders, bigger shunt with bluetooth monitoring) it was, all up, TWICE the cost of the actual batteries. And my upgrade was only from 150Ah of AGM to 200Ah of lithium on a 19ft live-aboard with a 10HP x 2 cyl. petrol motor!
*But thoughly worth it* -- just waaaay more cost than expected! (About $3000, all up). Shrug. 😊 But I've now got a beast of a system. It would be an ignorant false economy to just drop in lithium batteries and "hope for the best" to save money ... as I've seen many do. They always regret it down the track. My motto is "do it once, do it well".

[@mikeelliott7535]

Thanks for the practical view. I think this was your best post.
I have a large lithium battery bank controlled by Victron equipment and I'm very happy with it.
Now that you've got some decent capacity buy a 2 element induction cook top for around $500. You wont regret it.
I think that most boaties have a battery capacity that is far to small; they discharge their batteries way too far and they locate the batteries in a hot engine room. Very bad for battery life.
I've had lead acid batteries that have lasted 10yrs because the were only discharged to 12.6V(40%) and constantly charged with solar.
I may be just another Utube battery expert but I'll stick with what I've learn't the hard way and I think you're on track and have made the right choice. Mike

[@OutChasingStars]

Thanks Mike. I always say there's a limitless number of ways to do things. We're happy with how things have turned out so far and as we get more comfortable with the new system, we may look into modifying other parts of the boat to take further advantage of it.

[@josidasilva5515]

The interference caused by the battery cables can be avoided by two options: use shielded cable or twist the positive and negative cables around each other to disperse the electromagnetic field. I would love to see statistics on your usage.

[@Svdreamchaser]

Super helpful. Thank you very much for the details and lessons learned.

[@arthurpryor773]

well thought out project.....also Peace of Mind is Priceless......thanks for a great video.....from texas....

[@pcmiller2710]

Very well done on the Elect systems!

[@flyingdutchman6984]

After eight years my lead/acid power system was starting to wane so I decided to replace the entire system. My power needs are much different than yours, but I thought would post a breakdown of my cost for giggles.
HARDWARE:
2 6v 225 amp hour AGM house batteries $560usd ($280usd each)
1 12v 79 amp hour AGM starting battery $250usd
Solar charge controller $50usd (kept old one for spare)
miscellaneous bits and beer $50usd
LABOR: $0.00 (I installed it myself)
TOTAL COST: $910.00usd

[@svourtime123]

Your best video to date! Great job! Informative.

[@jamesthomas7928]

I watched this all the way through BUT you have loaded yourself with far more worries than necessary just to get more power than you need. After cruising for 35 years I have no worries about power with my AGM's and solar (8 years old and starting to fail now) so will go to Lithium but not with all those doo-daa's. Just Lithium and a new solar charger and take care of them. Thanks though for your thoughts.

[@thedolphin5428]

I agree, simple is good. But mate, you're gunna get a rude shock if/when you get around to upgrading to lithium. It's not just a battery swap. Lithium is a whole new associated chemical technology than AGM and thus requires more complex gear. If you want simple, stay with AGM.

[@JCAJCA3]

As already stated "Great Explanation & Outstanding video". Enough said. GOD bless you guys. JC

[@peterasquith6942]

So, now to sort with Fountaine Pajot how to get this done in a new build?
Contractors from Australia?

[@OutChasingStars]

Fountaine Pajot seem to have a formula for building boats. That formula doesn't allow for much modification from the standard options so I don't think you'd be able to get them to do it. There are certainly contractors in France who could do so and elsewhere around the world.

[@SailingSisu]

Just got my quote on our lithium system... Flippen hell!

[@OutChasingStars]

Yeah, they're not cheap. Is Leopard offering them through the factory now? FP weren't when we ordered Starry Horizons and I couldn't justify the added expense of new lithiums at the time when we had perfectly new batteries.

[@SailingSisu]

On the new Leopard 50 I believe it is now an option, standard lead, option 1 AGM, and option 2 Lithiums. For our L45 we had to do it through Leopard After Sales. I think Lithiums is reaching a point where it became pretty safe and mainstream.

[@markleyg]

Great tips and insight.

[@davidascher7927]

Awesome! Wish I understood it . . . one day I will.

[@johnperry7534]

Great information buddy thanks

[@stuartsimmons956]

Very interesting and informative.

[@dougmc666]

Excellent points about the reduced charging time and weight with lithium, but there were so many other changes, it would have been great to compare an improved system with AGM's to an improved system with lithium.

[@thedolphin5428]

Not worth improving an AGM system -- same or new batteries. You'd just get 3-5 years down the track and need to go lithium anyway. Didn't you hear what he said about halving the charge-up time.

[@jafsgbagsf3727]

Really interested to see that you had the low start battery alarm issue. Same for us after our swap to lithium, using the same Balmar regs as you. After having the sparkies in scratching heads for a day the consensus was that the problem only seemed to occur when we had been motoring for more than 12 hours or so, and that as soon as the lithium bank was full, ALL charging was then disabled by Balmar. Unfortunately this meant that the start batteries didnt then charge either, and eventually the draw from engine bay fans took the voltage down enough for an alarm. Lovely stuff at 4am when my admiral was getting some sleep (yes i have one of them too). How to fix? The sparkies came up with some electrickery ideas involving more devices but i opted to just run more electrical stuff like dishwasher, drier to keep the house bank discharging (and ironically the start batts charging). Am considering just putting a couple of 230v $50 smart chargers to the start batts for the odd occasion this happens. Great channel! All the best Julian and Deb Quokka2.

[@lkm5462]

Funny, I had just watched the impi Lio2 episode. What is the price break down and how long day 1 to no more problems ? Jack does seem like a guy who knows his stuff. To bad Boat manufactures haven’t set up their boats in a lio2 orientation. Batteries in an engine room has always been a bad idea. I would have liked to see some white board diagrams of the system(s) Thanks nice vid

[@boeretoer]

Lk M Agreed, he really sold the products and benefits but have no idea of the breakdown of the component & installation costs...

[@OutChasingStars]

I've added a basic cost overview to a pinned post here in the comments and a more detailed breakdown is now available on our blog. I'd say it took about 3 weeks once we finished at the boat works to get all the problems resolved. Which when you're doing a full on re-work of your electrical system, wasn't bad at all.
And I agree with you about boat manufacturers. Most of the big manufacturers are designing charter boats where maximizing storage and ease of access to systems for repair is the key consideration. A more custom manufacturer like Lightwave Yachts here in Oz build with lithium and not in the engine rooms.

[@dannyjensen4954]

Great story. Thanks.

[@CatamaranImpi]

Great video David - nice 'shout out there too' (thanks mate) and clearly you are someone who does the homework - well done and so pleased Jack pulled through for you guys. He is one awesome dude!

[@OutChasingStars]

Thanks Brent! You are a rather awesome dude yourself! We greatly appreciate your help and guidance as we got started with this project!

[@cyclomaniac9086]

Great infor and tips... thanks

[@SVImpavidus]

Good vid guys, thanks for sharing. Ant & Cid xx

[@peterhughes6949]

Excellent video, really good. Just some questions on the detail after reading the blog and comments here. Q1 What amps is the BMS? You have a Victron Multiplus 3000 that has the capacity to pull 250amps at 12v....Just seeing how the system deals with huge amp loads that could damage the batteries. Q2 How has the system and the batteries performed now years later, interested in a follow up video or brief comments, are the batteries and other electronics of the system holding up well? Thanks

[@Blazerade13]

Nice job!

[@jokagimenez4702]

Great video, well documented!
One thing surprises me though...
Why all those mppt chargers?? Victron must love you! (Unless you got them as a promo gift)
Unless I'm mistaken, what you say is not completely right.
Partial shading of a solar panel is ONLY affecting other solar panels' performance on the same controler when they're connected in SERIES!
When in parallel, the output of the solar panel in the shade will drop, but NOT the other ones they share the mppt controler with!
I'd like to say that anyway, by separating all the solar panels, you get the same result and just wasted money. Unfortunately this is NOT even true!
If I believe the bit of research I've done on using 2 controllers to charge one battery, MPPT monitors your output to adapt the charge.
At least they're all the same model... But when one will send 14V, the other one will think "oh, the battery must be close to full". And you end up with faults like MPPTs that go on float mode, and whole solar panels completely useless!!
The only way would be to " network" them so they know what the others are doing, for example by a bluetooth connection. But for Victron, that's $1000+ extra just for the bluetooth dongle for each unit!!
So yes, I think it would make way more sense to have only one single MPPT that has enough capacity to connect all the different models in parallel. And it would be a way cheaper option.
Please, anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and if it really is a good idea to have so many controllers. I'm not an expert either, and like you I make a lot of research before I start a project. Any advice is always welcome.

[@OutChasingStars]

I think you are generally correct that shading on a series wired solar set up is a much more significant problem than on a parallel wired set up. However, one thing you need to keep in mind for a parallel set up (especially if you're combining ALL panels to go to one MPPT controller) is that you will need some very large wires in order to avoid voltage drop.
If there's one thing we've learned about boats it's that there is about a million different ways to solve the same problem. :) We could afford to go with one controller per panel and people we trust advised us that was the most efficient set up possible. I am intrigued by the new networking options that are coming out (Victron now offers a controller model with BT built in) and that may be something we look into on the next boat! haha

[@ralph9987]

can you please share the block diagram of your new system, including the model numbers of all the equipment installed? TIA and welcome to OZ mate.

[@Hakast]

Looks like you know Lithium. I am just now planning my own replacement from AGM. Coould I bother you take a look at my wiring diagram?

[@SteveWrightNZ]

Only comment - the system is now complex to the point where two simultaneous faults will be very confusing to diagnose. One very complex fault during a stressful passage and you emphatically will not be down below with your thinking cap on - at least not with that cap on the correct direction. On yachts, simple is king.

[@OutChasingStars]

I agree with you to a point. If you went with absolute simplicity, you'd never have added engines or batteries or winches or plumbing etc to a yacht in the first place. Progress does mean added complexity.
I feel pretty comfortable now that we have a system set up in such a way that I can diagnose most things. And if not, we have the ability to communicate with people who can help do further troubleshooting. Even out in the ocean. :)

[@noobpvptv5176]

If you want to save money on Lithium batteries, buy the chevy volt battery pack. I think its around 4k but you get a lot for that. There are a couple good videos who have used the chevy volt packs.

[@kimhynes544]

Very Impressive thanks

[@tanenolan]

Thanks, great vid.

[@Useitorloseit1]

Can't find the DCDT3A?

[@miami337yahoo]

Does anybody know if, especially with a Lithium setup like this - would it be possible to run a few small tankless water heaters on a catamaran? I'm trying to figure out what is more efficient - one traditional constant hot water heater tank or a few individual small instant on water heaters that only power on when used. Trying to determine if the batteries could handle larger amperage draws required by the heaters.

[@Gramps83]

I would do a dry cell battery on a boat. Like an Odyssey or a Optima. They can be oriented in any way as well.

[@LovesGames113]

What is wrong w saltwater batteries for ur boat

[@tigersharkzh]

Those Calb cells are awesome. They're LiFePo4 chemistry so if the worst case scenario happens it will only turn into a bloated cell that discharges some nasty gas at about 180°C and won't go on a thermal runaway like Li Ion cells.
ua-cam.com/video/p21iZVFHEZk/v-deo.html
That's all that happens in the worst case on those cells. Nothing close to those nasty fires Tesla batteries cause.
Great choice, I'm sure you will be happy with this system for many years to come.

[@stuartmcmichael5250]

Very well presented Capt.....I have 1 question regarding the extra weight at the bow, how will that effect the trim of the boat when sailing. Will you have to compensate and distribute extra weight towards the stern?

[@OutChasingStars]

When the boat is bow heavy, she has a tendency to slam more. So yes... we've been working on re-distributing weight to keep her as level as possible.

[@metalsnapper6728]

Great and very interesting video. I’ve been looking into fitting a Balmar smart regulator to my battery bank as they are clever bit’s of kit for sure. I liked how they installed a switch so you can run on the alternators own internal regulator if any issues occurred with the Balmar one. Do you know how they did this? Does the switch break the field sensing wire? Or does the switch do something else?

[@OutChasingStars]

The double throw toggle switch was installed on the "Excite Wire" from the Balmar alternator and what's labeled as the "Ignition Input" wire on the smart reg wiring diagram. My understanding its that the switch allows for switching the source of voltage.
The instructions for this are actually in our Balmar 6-series Alternator instruction manual. I would definitely recommend checking with an expert to make sure that your model alternator can be set up like this.

[@mickmccrohon]

Thanks for passing on your lessons. I moor on the Gold Coast and am hearing great things about Outback Marine.
You just missed one thing... how much?

[@OutChasingStars]

Hi Mick. Jack and Outback were quite helpful through this whole process. I've added a pinned comment with a basic cost overview and a more detailed breakdown is now available in our blog post.

[@jorgemontefusco650]

Quanta costa?

[@robb1460]

Why did you not keep the 2000w inverter going and just add the 3000w to have 5000w and 200amp plus?

[@OutChasingStars]

The biggest reason was that we simply didn't need that much capacity. We never maxed out the 2000w inverting capacity and we chose the new 120amp size charger so that the batteries would reach float in the same amount of time it takes us to make a full tank of water.
Also, we have a frequency converter on the boat that requires me to adjust some settings on the inverter/charger whenever we go from generator power to shore power. There was a concern that having multiple units might not play nicely with each other.

[@tylerwalz1]

Great video! If you were putting this exact system into a new Helia with 2 high output alternators and a solar array that can top the batteries off daily, would you forego the dedicated Onan generator for weight savings and lower maintenance?

[@css145hs]

That's the route I'm going on my new cat build. No genset. 10kwh house bank, but with 2.5kw of semi-flexible solar (probably tough+ from sunbeam). I'm actually very curious how much solar output David & Amy get from the semi-flexible panels now that they are a few years old. I'm also doing a propane free boat (electric kitchen). Delos apparently just went the electric kitchen route as well, and lithium batteries (IIRC). The 2.5kw is excessive, but beyond the normal loads there will also sometimes be a dive compressor and/or some aircon runtime, for which 2.5kw + battery isn't guaranteed to be enough, but will often suffice. When it doesn't, I'll be using 24v 165amp GenMaax alternators (that's 8-9kw of output on a cat). While that's not fuel efficient, or good for long sustained output, it will totally suffice if used on an infrequent basis.

[@allynonderdonk7577]

I would buy a 3.5 kw Phasor/Nexgen. They are super light, tiny, sip the fuel and will help when the sun doesn't shine. Gone with the Wynns seems to be struggling with their Catamaran Lithium Battery install. They are using so much energy on a daily basis that their solar isn't cutting it. (Which they have a lot of solar.) I hear that they can't even maintain their refrigerators without running their engines most of the time. They are also swapping their alternators out so they can keep a better charge. Dive compressors, watermakers, and AC won't run long on solar. The idea is to use the solar for as much as you feasibly can and to burn the fuel when you want to use more electricity such comfort(AC) or need to cook, etc. The 3.5 KW genset is probably the smallest diesel genset (no kaboom)out there with the best price. 1/5th a gallon an hour. A Honda 2000 can't go tow to tow with the output capabilities and fuel burn of one of those gensets. If you had to like it was 125F outside, you could run the genset and at least one air conditioner all the time, while maybe making water, or showering, or cooking, watching tv, charging batteries. The thing is that it can maintain enough to at least run a 16,500btu air conditioner 24/7. It can maybe even run 2 if you have a mastervolt or victron charger that supports a boost from the batteries when there isn't enough current to supply all the power on the genset. This allows motors to start with a boost from the lithium bank, and then run on the available power from the genset...and to charge with the remainder..

[@css145hs]

I agree a very small genset is a good route, if you find you need it. That's my plan--add it later only if necessary. I'd still want the same solar and battery setup. For me, avoiding the cost and weight (fast cat) and maintenance of the genset is the top priority, if I have to run the engines occasionally when diving all day, no worries. A single dive refill every day isn't taxing and can just go off batteries. I have a lithium bank on my current boat, and it's great, but I did have to replace all my charging sources and monitoring systems. Shame about the wynn's, will have to look into whatever they've reported. I wonder if their panels could be wired differently, if they are outputting reasonable power for their size and geo location, etc. I'd expect them to reliably collect 6kwh+ a day.

[@allynonderdonk7577]

Well, I don't think the Wynns are really reporting anything about their problems. Someone whom had been on the boat said that...it is kind of embarrassing a little bit if you tout all this stuff and then can't quite make it. On one of their recent videos the maintenance monitor can be seen, and it is at a ridiculously low level at the end of the day. Your idea to just use the upgraded alternators is a really good one and will likely fill the gap. You might look at Carbon Foam batteries if the weight doesn't scare you. They are like 80% of lithium capabilities. Full run down, many more cycles than lead acid, does not need to be fully charged at all. In a large bank they give 80-90% of the longevity of lithium at about 1/3 the cost for the batteries. Also no changing of equipment quite probably. I am getting 10 carbon foam batteries for my monohull.

[@OutChasingStars]

Hi Tyler. I'd very seriously consider it yes. That would also require us to swap out our watermaker, which is 110v and the main thing we use our generator for at the moment but it certainly could be done. I'd also go with even more solar than the 1kw we have now. Having a smaller genset like Allyn suggests would also be a good compromise is you have some more AC heavy systems.

[@urabus7875]

nice

[@chewyalba9824]

I think modern day sails should also double as solar panels... The solar panel should be fold and you know movable like sails already do. The teach should maybe made from graphite.

[@xmask321]

Is there a way to display the battery charging status (and other data points) on something larger than that small unit, like on an iPad for example?

[@OutChasingStars]

My understanding is that Outback does offer an iphone app to go along with the BMS display. We haven't tried that out yet though so I can't say for sure how well it works. It is also possible to integrate the Outback system in with a Victron Color GX system display, which has a web portal. We opted not to go that route since we have the Philippi and it does much the same thing as the Color GX would.

[@thedolphin5428]

Christ! You must be a millionaire! 😅
You couldn't have picked a more expensive country to do a marine electrical upgrade than here in Australia!!! I'm glad you felt your money was well spent. Looks like a truly shmick system.

[@jackneff179]

what was the total cost of the upgrade?

[@scarletbegonias2359]

Good job, Captain, understanding your vessel is half the battle. There's a lot of helpful information in there. I hope the Admiral showed her appreciation that night or morning?? Sounds as if the both of you are in good hands. Were lithiums an option during the outfitting at Fountaine Pagot during her commission? If so, what did they say or more importantly, not say that they should have? IYHOP

[@OutChasingStars]

FP didn't offer lithium as an option when we bought Starry Horizons almost 5 years ago (Oct 2013). I have no idea if that has changed currently.

[@trevortrevortsr2]

That looks an amazing set up that must have cost a fortune - I wonder how you are avoiding diode premature failure at the alternator with the kind of sudden cut off of load used on charging lithium charging parameters

[@OutChasingStars]

Hmm... not quite sure I understand what you mean by a "sudden cut off of load used on charging lithium parameters"? The balmar regulator we installed manages the charging stages through bulk->absorption->float and won't suddenly cut out charging.
Now if you mean how do we protect the alternators in the event that the lithiums go off line, then that's what the DCB is for. If it detects the lithiums are offline, it will automatically divert all charge current to the start battery and should save the alternators.

[@runemartinguldberg9056]

Where do you put the plug.

[@kenkaz3376]

Sounds like an awesome system, but that's sure alot of widgets. So i guess you can pitch your multimeter. Capt Kaz

[@OutChasingStars]

Haha, I wish! I still think a multimeter is a vital piece of equipment on any boat!

[@ddog757]

Hey Guys just found your channel...great content! Leaned quite a bit..thank you...Did have a question ...have you looked into electric motors vs diesel? or is that only for the million dollar boats? Seems like a lot less maintenance but i really have no idea...thx

[@OutChasingStars]

I haven't done a ton of research into electric motors, mostly because it wasn't an option when we bought our boat. But in the bit of looking I've done, the big question for me is how you can generate enough power for electric motors? Just solar likely won't be enough so most boats we've met with electric motors also have some sort of generator they have to use to produce enough power.
And I have to admit, I do like the "power" provided by our diesels and fuel and parts are relatively easy to find. If something goes wrong with an electric motor in the middle of say Indonesia... good luck. :)

[@dnihilist]

As a foreign non Aussie flagged vessel in transit, were you able to reclaim the GST?

[@OutChasingStars]

Unfortunately no... Aussie rules are that even foreign boats can only reclaim GST on items purchased 60 days before leaving the country. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...

[@billfournier6114]

Awesome video, David! I could not remember if I watched it before so I watched it a second time. :-) I really like how you have backup/alternative plans if something goes wrong. Which leads me to wonder with all your electronics on Starry Horizons, do you have any special breakers to protect your electronics from lighting strikes OR do you have a plan to take certain systems off line to protect some or most of your systems so if you do get hit with a lighting strike it's not catastrophic? Also if you do get hit with a lighting, is this something your insurance policy will cover? Thanks.

[@OutChasingStars]

My understanding is there's just not a whole lot you can do to mitigate a lightening strike. We have a list of backup systems (handheld VHF, Iridium Go, Garmin Tracker, Ipad, GPS etc) that we put in the oven whenever we're in a lightening storm. We also have a foldable solar panel with USB plugs we can use to charge items if needed. So even if all electrical systems on the boat to down, we should still be able to find our way to land somewhere.
Hopefully we never get hit by lightening, but if we do, our insurance does cover it.

[@billfournier6114]

Very helpful! Thanks!

[@plt4415]

R u sure that Victron 3000W inv/chrg is suitable for charging the lithium? Yes it is programmable but on the spec of that charger lithium is not included in "usable battery types". Even if you customized the charging profile it doesn't become 100% suitable for lithium as I know.

[@richardowens9061]

Yes, the Victron inverter they have is suitable for use with LiFePO4 batteries, like they have. Furthermore, the BMS is going to take care of issues that the inverter/charger doesn't.

[@tedboender]

How much did the new system cost?

[@allynonderdonk7577]

See their blog posts on their website. It has some more info, and might be there. Look at Firefly Oasis Carbon Foam instead.

[@OutChasingStars]

The total cost of the project (including labor and GST in Australia) was $27,550.52 USD. I've added a basic breakdown to a pinned post on this video and a more detailed breakdown is now available on our blog post.

[@pwrllc]

Out Chasing Stars n

[@tracyoliver550]

Looking to buy new. Shocked that neither Lagoon or FP offer Lithium. Broker says " no problem, we'll order w/out batteries and install them here". warning flags went up. I know it's not that simple. IN 2019 WHY DON'T MANUFACTURERS OFFER LITHIUM THAT'S SET UP PROPERLY FROM THE FACTORY???

[@richardowens9061]

Manufacturers have no idea about the context their boats/RVs are going to be used. They don't know, for example, whether someone who buys an RV is going to spend all their time in RV campgrounds or in remote areas with no hookups. And, lithium battery systems are very expensive - so, to include them for people who really don't need them and couldn't justify the added expense makes no sense. And, let's not forget, installing lithium battery systems requires a certain level of expertise, as well as consultation with the end user about their specific needs - who isn't likely to be known at the factory. I know I don't want someone at the factory guessing about what I might want in the way of a lithium battery system for which I'm going to be paying thousands of dollars and might need to completely replace it with something that better meets my needs. All that said, as lithium battery systems become more affordable and the average needs become known, I expect manufacturers to start including entry level lithium battery/solar systems that meet or exceed what they currently include in the way of lead-acid battery systems. But, we're just not there quite yet.

[@danpease8395]

Dear God Man, can you give a faint estimate of how much this little upgrade cost!

[@JD-kf2ki]

What boat do you have?

[@SailingBrickHouse-RVLife]

Hey...thought I would leave this comment here instead of... your Phillipe battery monitor...it doesn’t go down to a cell level, correct? Do you think it’s important to be able to look at the voltage, etc of each cell? -Rebecca

[@OutChasingStars]

You are correct. 😃 The Philippe is more of a system wide monitor. The BMS from Outback Marine is the one that does the more detailed monitoring of the lithium bank, including monitoring voltage/balance for all the cells. I can't dial down to individual voltages of each cell within the BMS screen, but each cell of the bank has LEDs to indicate the status of each cell, letting me quickly diagnose which cell has a problem.

[@philipjames1133]

Hi l am taking delivery of a Saona 47 in March next year it will be fitted with standard AGM batteries do you think it would be best to upgrade before l take delivery

[@boeretoer]

Philip James Absolutely. Check out UA-cam :Sailing Sisu being build now

[@OutChasingStars]

Hi Philip. We actually thought quite hard about replacing the AGM batteries that came with the boat with Lithium straight away. In the end, we decided not to because we already had a working electrical system with new batteries and we'd just spent quite a lot of money on outfitting other parts of the boat we wanted to upgrade.
I'm not sure if FP offers a lithium option from the factory now. If they do, they could be well worth it. But if not, you'll need to figure out if it's worth the extra cost to swap immediately.

[@philipjames1133]

Out Chasing Stars thanks for the reply l think that is what l will do let them run their life then do the replacement great minds think alike

[@mlg779]

Lithium batteries Like to stay between 45% to 75%. I keep mine at 60% in the summer and in the winter I keep them at 45%.

[@thedolphin5428]

I have no idea where you got such ideas. Absolute tosh. Do more reading from experts. NO manufacturer says any such thing.

[@mlg779]

@@thedolphin5428 even Tesla tells you not to charge the Li-ion cars to 100% because you shorten the battery life. They recommend the daily charge to max 90% and you when you have long trips and you need the range to charge them at 100%. On the cars with LifePO4, because they are more forgiving they removed the 90% charge setting.

[@jackschaufele7237]

Did you ever consider converting your ac and other major load drawing appliances to D.C.?

[@987946216430]

Could you have placed the batteries in a locker outside in the cockpit instead of inside the salon?

[@OutChasingStars]

We thought long and hard about it, but none of the accessible lockers in the cockpit are watertight. They don't seal completely so when washing the boat water can get in. Plus there are drain holes at the bottom which does let in some salt water in rough seas.
We probably could have built something to protect the batteries but the thought of water near them made me quite nervous.

[@noelduffy7289]

You ALWAYS want your electrical s as far removed from the salt atmosphere as possible on any vessel.

[@davidwarnes5158]

Your statement about all the charge going to the start battery x 1 , in case of a lithium failure , that's a lot of power going to 1 battery , that ain't healthy, I have had a splitter on a 2 house bank set up fail, and melted the other bank, ie melted .and that was 800 ah worth of battery just halh,
Is the start led acid, don't you need different charge set up between both types

[@rayrodrick1951]

What is the cable size you use for the alternator to battery run?
BTW your guys should have calculated the voltage drop and known that the drop would be 1V. As for the Volvos, there is only two places where the voltage could be sampled, both being at the engine - the alternator output or the starter motor input connection (via starter solenoid). Sometimes they can be at the same voltage, sometimes not, depending on the wiring. Again, I am disappointed your guys didn't know this. It's fundamental knowledge for marine electrician/engineer.

[@indrekkpringi]

100% solar & hydro is cheaper, safer and less maintenance

[@ricbailey170]

You didnt address the cost of the overhaul. .......

[@OutChasingStars]

Hey Ric. I've added a pin comment with the project cost and a further cost breakdown is now available on our blog.

[@ricbailey170]

Thank

[@zackfanth7669]

"I'm not going to talk pros and cons" , " lithium charge faster, cost more, lead batteries take for ever to charge but are cheap"

[@niccat7051]

😳🤔🤪 what he said 👍

[@esurfrider7687]

While for boats and aircraft lighter is always better, the sad truth of battery technology is thus.. lithium batteries offer a marginal 20% better performance at literally 10x the price of AGM. I’ll wait for the technology to advance.

[@thedolphin5428]

Nonsense.

[@esurfrider7687]

it's been 5 years... battery tech got better@@thedolphin5428

[@archstanton9206]

Ignore the clowns David. Thanks for taking the time to share all of this info. Much appreciated. Hopefully in 6 months or so you can do an update and tell us your impressions and experiences after living with the system.

[@OutChasingStars]

Thanks for the idea! I'll add it to our list of potential future videos. :)

[@HopeOfJoe]

DITTO:
NICCAT
What he said ↑↑↑

[@russellesimonetta3835]

You,re giving me a headache!

[@patrickw8302]

Redundancy Rules

[@CaptainLoveBoob]

No swap here. Just a guy talking

[@fxpthl]

Sorry but this topic was just way to technical for we, the average viewer!

[@flkadjsfklajfkl]

So much for drop in batteries huh

[@OutChasingStars]

Lithiums are great, but I definitely wouldn't call them a drop in solution by any means...

[@johnbama4740]

you almost make it sound like Volvo is at fault for reporting voltage at the engine instead of somewhere else. maybe your brilliant installers didn't figure on voltage drop.

[@jerualem1234]

John Bama Slow your roll, sport. Take that trolling shit to a gun channel.

[@MrLikeke]

Why would you send a troll (your term) to a gun channel?

[@OutChasingStars]

Hi John. Don't blame Volvo for reporting voltage at the engine at all. But it took us a few hours of experimenting to narrow in on a solid guess as to where the voltage gets measured. Volvo wouldn't tell us where they read the voltage or what the settings were for the voltage alarm that was going off. And although my workshop manual lists a voltage wire for the alternator, it turns out that was a sense wire for the stock alternators, not the engine itself. So I stand by saying that Volvo weren't incredibly helpful.
As for the voltage drop... From the beginning of the project Jack, Jim and I agreed that we'd try to replicate/use the Fountaine Pajot wiring set up rather than reinvent things/save some cost if possible. FP had run wiring for the alternators into the starboard engine compartment where it then went into the house bank. So we did the same, but putting in some massive cables for the run up to the new location for the house bank. With the larger alternators and the ability of the lithium bank to accept a larger charge, that wiring set up turned out to be insufficient. Adding the additional cabling solved the problem.
Perhaps we should have been more willing to revamp everything from the beginning, but I'm not upset with how things turned out. We've worked with quite a few different marine contractors, and I'd not hesitate in recommending Jim or Jack to anyone. And we're not being compensated in any way to say that either.

[@offtherichter7]

O I thought you did this all yourselves. I forgot, you’re rich and you just pay people to work on your boat

[@OutChasingStars]

I have learned many things about boats over the years and have tackled quite a few projects myself. But this is a very complex project and getting it wrong could have very dire consequences when we're out in remote places. In those situations, I think it's well worth it to pay for experts to make sure the job is done right. And yes, we're quite fortunate that we can do so. If we couldn't, we'd be making different decisions.

[@davidmambrose4210]

must be a trust fund kid... no concept of economy

[@Chris-fo8wp]

I think he went through all the options, diesel fuel and generator overhauls are expensive in the long run. If you are going to cruise full time, you have to have good gear.....

[@OneGenericName]

Even if so your jealousy is showing through

[@MrLikeke]

You don't lift the poor by dragging down the rich. Being a 'trust fund kid' in itself isn't a negative. These two on Starry Horizons have given no indication that they are 'bad', to be mistrusted, or have no concept. God knows I am weary of you people who seek to chastise others merely for their better accomplishments. Count your blessings.

[@geoffthefarmer]

Why did you say that shit, seriously. David has gone to a lot of trouble to share his experience so the rest of us can learn for his experience. Your comments make people question why they bother.