Mabe make a circle of copper tubing that follows the full circumference of the magnet wheel, that way all the magnets are continuously heating up the pipe. Also, you'll need lots of insulation and an insulated hot water reservoir. Also, try adding "check valves" to make sure the hot water is being circulated and is constantly being heated. The hot water might not actually be flowing.
I was thinking this, but then would it not make more sense to make the pipe the same shape as a serpentine coil. As is the pipe is exposed to the same state of magnetic flux at the same time which is likely negating the effect. If the entire serpentine pjpe is only above north or south at the same time it should get a better effect from the alternating magnetic field. You could also have another coil of pipe underneath for double the distance. Requires some complicated pipe bending but should be doable with 6mm ID soft copper. Scrap that copper isnt magnetic. 2 circular pipes that run above and below with a small circle of stainless steel the same size and the magnet attached to the copper pipe. This would need to be every other magnet so it’s not exposed to north and south at the same time. The steel gets hot and transferee the heat to the copper pipe. Because the copper isn’t magnetic it won’t be effected by being over both magnets at once. You may also need a small mechanical pump as water is effected by strong magnetic fields even tho is technically not magnetic.
Maybe solder or weld a copper strip on the bottom of the pipe to catch a wider area of the 'flux' field. I think the tube has only a very small surface close to the magnets.
I was about to suggest this as well, perhaps with flat bottomed square pipe or pip with heat conducting bottom plate / fins all covered in insulating foam on top. Also, I wonder about a double but thinner tube so it can coil around more than once. Finally, If you can increase the stability of the spin so the pipe can get as close to the magnets as possible without hitting (a mm or so) you'll make the absolute most of the magnet strength.
Really cool: I’m an hvac designer and do heat loss related calculations as part of my work. The energy to heat the 5L of water 10 degrees is: Q=mc(dT) = (4184J/kg C)(5kg)(10C) = 209,200J. Since it was heated over 10 min that’s 209,200J/600s = 348.6 Watts of power. It’s hard to estimate the losses since I don’t know the ambient air temperature, but at 23C water, assuming about 13C ambient: I’m estimating around 250 Watts or so, with some quick lookups, with around 80% of that loss being in the piping. So that’s at least the same ball park as the above calculation: if you insulated everything you might be able to heat up a bit of water for a sink or a small outdoor shower.. (or, you can pipe it in to a regular water heater and reduce your demand, and probably eliminate your standby demand to keep the water hot when not in use) nice work!
Yeah, but the energy required to rotate the entire wheel plus the frictions and tremblings and pipings will get you a net loss. So apart from a fun experiment, and maybe human-powered (via bike, or manual gearing), it’s mostly useless. Without talking about the initial cost of the energy need for magnetizing the magnets.
Yes. I envision a stationary bike sitting next to a hot water tank. Every morning someone gets on and pedals like the devil. They get their exercise AND they bring a tank of water up to temp for the day (or, at least, offset the fuel used to heat it.) You never know, we might all have to do this someday when the power grid goes down... 🤔
Maybe pay attention to the watts, current and voltage of the drill there could be a voltage drop under load in the drill input end. Then circle the entire wheel to take advantage of the full circumference. Keep the loads balanced. Before a coil burns out it generally starts to draw more current.
I double checked it an yeah (((5000*4.184*10)*1J)/(10minutes)) is 350ish watts. There's no way that system is at thermal equilibrium yet. I have a 400w engine block heater I put on the hydraulic oil tank of a log splitter (its 2 gallons, I think) and it will get up to 50C starting from -15C over an admittedly longer period of time, but with a LOT more thermal losses.
Starting work as an apprentice plumber way back in 1948. When fitting hot water cylinders. The hot water pipe from the boiler went from the top of the boiler into the side of the cylinder near the top. The return from the cylinder went from near the bottom of the cylinder to the bottom of the boiler. Thus giving a continuous circuitous flow as the water heated up. This may work on your system and increase the water temperature? Your water supply seemed to have both in and out pipes at the same level. All interesting stuff, Tim. Go with the flow.😉
This looks so close to your original concept, I love it! Everyone is telling you to overcomplicate it but it feels 90% there - it looks like quite a big air gap between the copper pipe and magnets which you want to minimise, and it clearly wants insulation but it looks almost there
My thoughts exactly. I know clearance tolerances are sketchy and impacts rather worrisome, but there's a lot of heating potential left because of that larger gap.
I wouldn't try to fix the gap first. I would go 4x on the heating elements. It is less complicated, you need to replicate the existing infrastructure, and along with isolation it could expose true potential. But at the same time I am not an expert on magnetic induction
Turn the disk so it's vertical, and the axis of rotation is horizontal. That will put a vertical orientation to the heating pipes so convection is stronger. Make a pipe that bends to follow the magnets for a bit less than 180 degrees. The inlet will be attached at the low end, and the outlet will be attached to the top end. Make a mirror image for the other half of the disk. Then, add more rows of magnets to the disk and make two more collector pipes for each row of magnets.
Two suggestions for improvement. First you have an open magnetic circuit; the underneath is completed in air. A Halback array will make a massive difference to the flux induced. Secondly, your copper pipe is too thin. A thicker block of copper will generate more internal current and hence heat. Try to minimise all air gaps. For your present arrangement, magnetic steel lamination connecting north south under the disk will help. Good luck Dr Paul Difference
I agree with everything except the Halbach array, if he did that it would space out the flipped poles so while it would definitely get stronger on the top side it might reduce the flux so it might be tricky to get it to work better (there's probably a clever way around that though), it might also be difficult if he's using the same kind of magnets on the rotated ones to get them to happily fit snuggly into the disk. A laminated steel "magnetic yolk" is a great idea but it would add a fair amount of mass to the rim and you'd have to be careful to avoid laminated steel throwing stars... you could probably use a microwave oven transformer cut into pieces. It's also a good way to remove the temptation of using the microwave oven transformer for something more electrically dangerous, lol. (Those things are terrifying)
Yes, a good magnetic steel under the magnets will increase the flux on top side by almost a factor of 2*. It does not need to be laminated as the flux on the bottom side will be almost constant. It must be thick enough that it does not saturate too much though. As the heating effect is close to quadratic of the magnetic flux, increasing it by a factor of 2 will give about 4 times the heating assuming is all else is the same. *Assuming the magnets are mounted directly on the so called back-iron.
Even tho i'm an engineer i'm not super sure but i was under the assumption that iron was the best metal to use to carry magnetic fields, then i have heard one want to avoid magnetic storms in transformers, that is supposedly why one use laminated steel in transformers. To verify if this is the case one can use a solid block of steel and see how fast that heats up compared to a laminated equivalent. the air gap between the magnets and the steel/copper/aluminium/whatever matters alot. You might also want to monitor the temperature of the magnets becuse they probably also heat up just as fast as the thing you are trying to heat. It might melt the resin and start flying away and carsh in to things and yourself, major risk of injuries in this case, i bet they will all fly away in a 12 second window if they reach the melting point of the resin.
I'm fascinated to learn that this works with copper pipe. We have an induction hob in our kitchen and the manufacturer's documentation made it very clear that we absolutely must use pans that have ferrous bases. I'm under the impression that your alternating magnets replicate the way an induction cooker works, albeit at a lower frequency. Brilliant video Tim, as always. Thanks for publishing...
Tims wheel works by alternating a magnetic field to induce an electric current, meaning the material only needs to be electrically conductive. An induction hob works by alternating an electric current to induce a magnetic field, meaning the material needs to be magnetic. That's why most stainless steels won't work on an induction hob either.
Copper and aluminium are too conductive. Instead of turning power into heat, it goes back into the induction heater's coil. The coil needs to be rated for the total power, not just the power that heats the pan. A coil rated for 1000W might only be able to put 15W of heat into a copper pan. Magnets don't really have a power rating because their magnetic fields don't change. Austenitic stainless is only slightly less efficient at heating than ferritic stainless or carbon steel, but that still represents double or more power being returned to the coil. The difference in efficiency is most likely due to magnetic hysteresis - energy lost when the magnetic field changes direction. Non magnetic metals are dependant entirely on electrical resistance to induced currents to produce heat. Finally, aluminium and copper will levitate given enough power. Having pans flying off the hob isn't ideal, but an induction furnace can make use of this to create levitating balls of molten metal. There are plenty of clips of that here on UA-cam.
Non ferrous mate, a ferrous base is iron or steel which don’t work and will probably damage the hob that’s why you use aluminium bases or copper basses.
Could you measure the power draw from the motor, with and without the pipe in place? The currents in the pipe oppose the rotation of the disk, putting strain on the motor. The difference in power draw would give you an upper limit on how much heat is produced in the pipe.
Here’s my thoughts Tim. So before you go to the trouble of insulating the water pipes and tank and seeing what the temperature rise of the volume of water over time is, ie the amount of energy transferred. Like an electrical generator you can quickly see what the power output versus the power in is, ie the efficiency by measuring the power delivered into a resistive load whilst measuring the current into the motor with the load attached? Well we can clearly see “work being done” in your water heater and your load is the effectively the copper pipe with a volume of water contained in the active length of tube in proximity to the magnets, yeah? So If you put a clamp meter over the incoming live or neutral conductor of the mains to the motor and monitor the current into the motor once the disc is up to speed, so in order to improve the efficiency of the system then if you move the copper pipe towards the spinning disc magnets and away, there should be a noticeable change in current drawn by the motor because we know then that work is certainly being done and energy is being transferred into the copper pipe and the water being heated. So my thinking is if it was me I would firstly be thinking that I need to get my copper “pickup” system, ie the copper pipe to be as efficient as possibly. Now I appreciate that you probably have thought all about this and some may suggest why not just have a copper induction coil and generate electricity instead but that’s not your intention here as you want to directly heat water? We are passing an alternating magnetic field into a copper pipe and the eddy currents in the pipe are producing heat, thinking about the magnetic field and the size and strength of the actual magnetic field and let’s briefly compare to an electrical generator for a moment… in the pick-up coil of the electrical generator, the coupled output power is determined by the length and thickness of the wire composing the coil so we want to add as much “copper” into the pickup,coil as we can and we do that in two possible ways, we wind as many turns of the wire into the coil as possible. We can increase the number of turns of wire by reducing the thickness of the wire that will give us a higher voltage out but reduce the current because of the effective series resistance of the length of copper wire. So if we increase the thickness of the copper wire we will clear.y have to reduce the number of turns in the coil so we increases the current but reduce the voltage, we therefore choose the optimum amount of turns versus the thickness of the wire. Now we need to capture as much of that rotating magnetic field into the surface area of the pickup coil and so we add an iron core to the pickup coil (we laminate the core to reduce the loss due to eddy currents) so that we can transfer as much of the magnetic flux from the spinning disc. Going back to the water heater system we need to think about the eddy currents that are being produced and how can we increase them? I would experiment with the size, shape and mass of the copper “pickup” system. So what about trying some of the below: 1) if you replace the copper pipe with a solid lump of copper - the shape may be important - try a disc or a cube, extend the length of the disc or cube to make a cylinder or cuboid and adjust the length and proximity of the object to get the biggest draw in motor current. Try maybe a hexagonal cross sectional area of the block? So if you find the bock heats up really quickly then that might be better if you solder a spiral coil onto the top of the block to transfer the heat into the water? 2) Compare the above results with those obtained from taking some thinner tube say 8 or 10mm diameter and wind a flat spiral and once again monitor the motor current whilst moving the position of the pickup tube. Try even a vertical coil of tubing versus the previously described flat coil. What about stacking a number of the flat spiral tubes on top of each other or wind 2 or 3 vertical coils of different diameters to sit inside each other and then connect all of the tubes together therefore maximising the volume of water being heated. 3) If you experimenting with option 2 and using multiple coils then it might be important to electrically isolate each tube as you don’t want to produce an induction coil so if you connect all of the separate tubes with neoprene or silicon tube then this might maximise the amount of eddy currents in the total surface area of the copper ? Taking it a stage further to prevent the water conductivity reducing the efficiency you might need to add an electrically insulating lining to the tube but using one that has good thermal conductivity ? Sorry for the lengthy explanation, I have ADHD a and I have to describe my thinking as a logical series of steps, I struggle to be concise lol 😂
Didnt read any comments before i typed my own extended comment. Also said that hes not going to gain much (some 10% at best) from isolation of the tubing. I estimated the motor power delivery, bc he gave the output, so i could guesstulate the efficiency. I came to 20%, very roughly of course. Which means he has to get 3 times more energy out of the system (so 4 times what is now), wihouth increasing input of course, to start to become competative with a generator (80% efficiency minimal). Atm 80% is losses. Since you cant decrease that from isolation and friction from belt, bearings, and so, it means a big overhaul of the system itself. Not only the pick up as you and i saw just now some others too have mentioned, but the entire disc will have to be encased. That means heat will rise inside aswell, which is good, bc it contributes to the water heating up and also helps in providing a failsafe device. But it has consequences for design and materials chosen, as that captured heat inside the3 enclosure also affects everything in there. Thats also when isolation becomes beneficial. As output water is hotter, losses rise, as a bigger delta t = more losses. So only then will you see a benefit from isolation, when the water actually becomes hot. Water of 23 celcius in a room of close to 20 celcius is minimal losses. far less than 1 % Funny to see how everyone focusses on their own thing. I focussed more on the system in total and losses and so, while you focus more on the pickup system. ;]
oops Said room is 20, bit is 13ish. So a bit more delta t. Still wouldnt be a high amount of loss though. Having said that, the temp doesnt rise anymore after it reaching 23, which means losses are as big as gains. So at that point its 100% loss. Since delta t is still low, that means the energy from induction is very low. If it cant keep up the low loss of a delta t of some 10 degrees, its very low. The isolation he says it needs, is not going to fix that. The plastic pipe already has some isolation properties. He's probably already losing almost as much as he gains in the copper pipe, to air. Air will also be moving there, since the disc spins fast. And even though air is a good insolator, moving air is not. Losses will be high there.
Don’t feel bad. UA-cam has censored myself on numerous occasions for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Being truthful, transparent and honest will get you removed and then the handcuffs go on for a while. I can’t understand their reasoning and they never explain theirs
Well Sir, there are a few things that occurred to me 1. The balance is critical for stability. There are procedures online for manual trial weight balancing or if you have a friend with vibration analysis gear. 2. You essentially have a gigantic disk and for heating, you can double the effectiveness by mounting 2 heaters like a disk brake caliper with a screw advance to control the gap more precisely. 3. For insulation, your idea for a woolie-pulley was pretty close to what I had in mind.😅 look for old wool blankets or moving padding and wrap the metal in aluminum foil then apply the fabric and then wrap the whole works. Wire will work or even duct tape. I love watching your experiments as I absolutely loved that aspect of being in university for Mechanic Engineering Technology and now that I'm retired, I appreciate content like yours and CEE Australia for trade-related content because I'm also an HD Equipment Mechanic 😅
@jfk720 I thought about that 🤔 but I was concerned about melting it in the heater because it could get quite toasty 🥵. The aluminum foil and non-synthetic fibers may be more resistant 😉 For convenience, hot water pipe insulation foam wraps could work if away from the heater 🤔
@ryelor123 maybe 🤔 more metal is more metal to heat and the goal is to heat the water. Also, a coiled copper pipe may be an option and easier to replace. ¼" -⅜" line with compression fittings🙂
When bending copper pipe. Anneal it first! Heat it to glowing red and let it cool or quench it (it doesn’t matter how quickly you cool it) it won’t kink and it will be much easier to bend. Copper pipe work hardens over time but annealing it won’t take away much burst rating.
copper that is red hot will not bend, it will tear at the spot that has the most stress on it. A simple proper pipe bender would have worked just fine.
Unless it's very old pipe it won't be pure copper it will be a cupronickel alloy and the extra hardness makes it prime to kinks, I'm not sure how much annealing will help?
I haven't read the comments, but one thing I would consider is having a taller, narrower water container with a pipe fitting at the bottom and one at the top just below the surface of the water. The effect would be to induce a circular flow of the water, the cooler water at the bottom will sink down while the hotter return water will go to the top, Insulate the whole water system to improve efficiency. You have a very unique and potentially valuable idea.
Great effort! 1. Insulate all the pipework and bucket to reduce radiant heat losses. 2. Extend the copper pipe beside the magnets. 3 Measure rpm of the disk while 4. Measure current draw on the motor driving the disk vs revs per minute, to make sure the setup is not stalling. Adjust distance of copper pipe from the disk to max torque without stalling the motor, which equals max heating effect. 5. Keep having fun, because we are! Notes: You could measure torque by deflection of a spring loaded idler pulley on the belt. For a setup with 'natural' inputs like wind or a water wheel, there will be an optimum torque vs rpm at which you will get maximum power out. Adjust the length of copper pipe or its distance from the disk to adjust how much power is being extracted while letting the setup run in the optimum torque/rpm range. Data is king!
Wow, so very cool, love this project! Also, 10 degree in 10 minutes looks great to me, if i'm not incorrect the ambient temperature was pretty low too. Insulation would surely help a lot!. My suggestions (you'll surely already tought of them) are to make two or three circles of magnets, instead of just one (eventually even more). Then loop the tube in a spiral so that each loop sits exacly on top of a circle of magnets. This way you'll multiply your heating power by two or three. If i understood correctly, the windmill will spin slowly but have a great torque so extra drag wouldn't be an issue. Also on due time, you can dump the whole spiral in an insulating material like expanding foam, as to create a disk that will sit on top of the spinning wheel. Another suggestion: add one of those wheely thing that show the flow of water on the pipes so you can see how much the heat causes circulation (unuseful but interesting :P)
We use thermal syphons at work. Some things we do are: 1 keep the pipes short. 2 The hot pipe should enter the liquid in the reservoir 2/3 of the way up in the side with the return from the bottom. 3 At the end that heats the water, the cold should come in the bottom and hot out the top... SO im thinking, you mount this thing on its side. You make a full ring of copper with 2 t-pieces, top and bottom, you pipe it into an insulated reservoir as described before and see how that does. If you had a reservoir higher than this diameter you could mount this said contraption on the side and pipe it straight in.
Just a thought , the tube being round has a stronger pull at the closest point to the magnets and get weaker as it comes up the side of the tube , use square section instead of tube , it will keep the field even over the surface and give a much more consistent heating
It's harder to construct, but a duct-in-duct arrangement might be more effective. A rotating barrel with the magnets in multiple rows mounted on the outside of an inner duct, to pass the working fluid (water, air, whatever), with a circular bearing at each end to maintain the smallest gap possible. There's an old design that had a layer of oil between two such cylindrical pieces. Come to think of it, if the outer cylinder is ferrous or the magnets are just strong enough, they could be mounted on the outside, to keep the inner side smooth and create a very tight gap.
1. Mount magnets with an exposed face on each side of the wheel. Consider casting magnets in epoxy, then milling? 2. Have pipe in a full circle on both sides of the wheel. 3. Balance wheel. 4. Minimize air gap between pipe and wheel. 5. Insulate system. Love the idea, now I want to do something similar.
That improves the coupling to the magnets which will increase the torque needed. There is a trade off where too much can stall the turbine reducing the power.
Still look at Vertical-axis turbines for your back garden. They strong because both ends of the shaft is supported. Less chance of running afoul with height restrictions. Easier to service. Heating water one side and the opposite side coils to produce 12 volts and battery. Charging battery power tools.🤔
I am pondering over a number of improvements: 1: Take a thick walled square tube over a much larger part of the circumference. The flat bottom at a short distance will meet more eddy currents and the energy transfer will be more effective. 2: Halve this (imo too large) large circle, but make two of them. Sandwich the flat tube between these two rotating plates, so that the flat tube is heated from below and at the top. 3: Place the whole thing in a heat-insulated environment 4: Now first do a number of measurements. At what rpm is the supplied heat energy sufficient? 5: Determine an average speed of the windmill to be built, and if that delivers too low rpm (as expected), then determine which transmission should be placed between the engine and the heat generator to optimize the whole setup. Maybe it is even better to make more than two disks. A thick walled tube could be a problem. Aluminium is available as thick walled round tube. Maybe it is doable to flatten the sides after bending.
This a neat project. If you make another wheel, consider putting something ferrous metal on the under side of the disc where you're inserting a magnet. The magnet should then stick to that metal through the wood and massively reduce the risk of it coming out of the hole and trying to re-attach to the stack of magnets you're still holding. Making some wooden u-shaped tabs to slide over each space to hold the magnet in place while you slot the next ones in means no need to wait for glue to dry, you can then make a second wheel with a lot of slots cut in to fit over those tabs and just place it on top. No need for glue at that point.
Whenever I see one of your videos pop up, click on it and I get so much joy even just from the intro starting.. you are so wholesome, it brings me much happiness.
The motive force in a convectiom circuit is gravity. The warm water has a lower density than the cold. This makes it lighter in comparrison. Gravity then pulls the heavy cold side down which lifts the lighter warm side. Much like a seesaw. The initial surge of heat is due to the fact that the water isnt flowing. So more energy is passed to the stationery water, once it starts to flow however each pass through the heat and only pick up so much of the energy. Think a roundabout, its easy to give that first big spin but actually harder to keep putting that same energy in to make it go faster, you end up with a maximum energy transfer. To improve energy transfer you need more water in contact with the copper, the water in the middle of the pipe is doing nothing, and you need more copper closer to the magnets. Either a rectangular pipe or perhaps 3 pieces of 10mm side by side would work
Very interesting, Tim. MDF will not keep its shape in this setup but I think you know that already. I'm looking forward to you and the commenter's figuring this out and then powering it with a windmill. So many uses for a windmill. Cheers 🇨🇦
Loved watching you build! You are an inspiration to tinkers everywhere. My two cents: 1) your MDF will sag in horizontal orientation, go vertical. 2) As another post suggested, this will make it easier to extend the pickup coil to cover more magnets. 3) if you go vertical, think about making a sandwich with two triangles of plywood or 1/2 sheets, depending on what you have, with a cutout for your hub, and solid wood on at least the bottom edge, and you might have to add a support bearing for the top side. 4) leave some room on the side of the sandwich where the edge of the rotor sticks thru and seal it off with 2x4 slotted in the middle. 5) the slotted piece gets at least one pair of bearings or casters, etc, mounted to stabilize the wobble like on a bandsaw. 6) now you can mount your pickup tube very close the magnets. 7) consider routing a channel in the flat side of a 2x6 or 2x8 that precisely matches the curve and smash your pickup tube into it, hammering flat on one side 8) now screw that onto the slotted 2x from suggestion 4, getting the tube and magnets as close as possible. 9) if you magnetize the other side, pickup tube can u-turn at the bottom a heat additionally , 10) there is a lot of spare capacity to mount small coils for charging things or lights. 11) thanks for sharing! And good luck.
G'day Tim and Sandra from Adelaide, Australia! I've been watching your videos for a while now and I'd just like to say thanks for inspiring me to make my own items from complete scratch. You make the most amazing and practical items from all sorts of bits and bobs. It also makes very entertaining videos. This is truly the best part to UA-cam. Keep up the great work and thanks!
That looks... horrifyingly safe. It's great. I'm pretty sure the best bet for increasing heat is going to be decreasing the gap between the pipe and the magnets, or increasing the length of the area in contact. It's a bit hard to tell, but it looks like the pipe and magnets are a cm apart at closest, but you really want them to be uncomfortably close to capture as much of the flux as possible- motors seem like they're sub mm, but I figure you'd do fine at 2-4mm. If you could flatten the copper pipe so that more of it's closer to the magnets that might help, though probably better would be getting a thin flat copper sheet/plate and soldering it to the pipe.
If there's a lot of inertia stopping he disc from spinning, does that mean the windmill will only be able to spin it on very windy days? On days with moderate wind you might have to go out and get it going by hand maybe?
I was wondering that too. I suppose some sort of ratcheting mechanism might be useful, so the windmill can add energy into the wheel without having the wheel turn the windmill when the wind is variable. If that makes sense.
I've seen some wind charts of his area, he has a lot of wind and very variable as well. I expect there will be some moments where the mill stalls, but there will also be gusts of wind to jolt it in action again. And with the size of windmill he is building, I think he will already generate quite a lot of energy.
Rotation to heat - just use a shorted out electric motor. There are cheap watercooled car alternators which do just this to help warming up the car faster. You will get the bearings and pulley for free and it will even be possible to regulate power by shorting the three phase wires in different ways. The trick which makes the alternator smaller for the same power is it having a closed magnetic loop with small air gap which your arangement does lack.
Very cool project. A tip, instead of screwing in the pieces of wood to hold the magnets in place you could have placed another magnet on the opposite side
What would happen if you put the wheel next to an old cast iron radiator? What would happen if you put 2 full loops of copper over the magnets? What would happen if there were 2 rows of magnets? (The same work spinning, but twice the heat? ) Just love the messing around and finding out as we go!
Next to an old cast iron radiator? It would slowly start to heat it up. Two full loops of copper over the magnets? It would heat up but put more drag on the wheel slowing it down (or requiring more energy to keep it at the same speed). Two rows of magnets? You'd get twice the magnetic power but also double the force trying to slow the wheel down, a bit like pressing your foot on a car's brake pedal twice as hard - sure you get more heat in the brake pads but the car stops more quickly as well.
Love what your doing, and yes I have the idea you need take about 10 feet of copper pipe and bend it back and forth until you have what looks like a water radiator and then build a frame or box around and fill full of insulation I would use spray foam but depending on how hot it gets your gonna wanna wrap the pipes first with fire proof thermal wrap like exhaust wrap for a motor bike, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have planned next and I and have plenty of ideas too
how laptop cooling pipes work. sintered for internal porosity. thanks for sharing the low budget version though- your version normal hobbyists can make.
I know this project is kind of just fiddling about. So feel free to ignore this and the slightly factious comment. Now there is another type of system that simplifies where the inductor placement and design. If you take the magnets and arrange them along a rotating spinning shaft you can concentrate the magnetic flux in a very small area. This is wonderful for simplifying the mechanical size and controlling rotor speeds considerably. Now if you surround this magnetic field with loops of wire, you can transfer the magnetic flux to a coil a surprising distance away. If you size the other coil to the side and shape of the pot/pan you are using you can induce the same energy. And surprisingly the efficiency of the entire system will be no different from using the mechanical linkage to the rotor of magnets. (I.e. you have essentially made an electric generator in a rather inefficient configuration. Many of the early electric experiments did use large flywheels of rotating disks of permanent magnets. The only change in efficiency for using wire to connect it to a remote coil is the resistance and length of then wire. Which would probably cancel out the inefficiency in the large flywheels design. There is no difference in the transfer of mechanical energy to electrical vs magnetic flux…it’s essentially identical)
The best thing you can do for efficiency is two thing balance out the magnet wheel. Vibration and shaking = more input power needed. And anneal the copper before bending it and a cheap set of bending springs will prevent kinking
cool design, been thinking of similar designs myself just for fun to get a hot tub at my cabin that can be used even in winter time. there are multiple ways of making this more effective: 1) make the copper tube extend in circle above all the magnets. Im not sure if this works but could potentially also do a loop under the disc. 2) thicker hoses/pipes, this will allow larger quantities of water to be transported at same time, this will slow down the heat loss a design i've been considering is doing a cylinder with magnets in it where a copper tube goes down and then up again. this will allow every magnet to affect the heating area while still keeping the design small. if we are doing a windmill design then the issue is keeping a steady speed, gonna need to look into a automatic gear system so that the cylinder stays at same rotation speed regardless of how fast the windmill is spinning, potentially a automatic lock and semi brakes for when it about to spin too fast
Put the spinning magnets above and below and then spin those magnets in opposite directions and then another wheel of magnets on the outside of those spinning magnets only turn them vertically with a oscillating wheel that will move back and forth along the length of the copper and before you say that could be hard your question was for an idea not how to set it up. LOLSSS
By having the pipe follow the magnets, the fields aren't flipping as often. That would explain why the water got so much hotter with your shorter pipe in the earlier experiment with 40 magnets. The fields cancel eachother out if two opposite polarities are seen by your metal conductor at the same moment. Try putting the pipe at eight angles to the magnets so that only one polarity of magnet hits the metal at any given moment. I think this may give you a better result.
It's not the moving magnetic field that heats the metal. The moving magnetic field causes electrons in the metal to move in synchrony, which causes friction. The friction of the motion of the electrons heats the metal.
I've been working on something similar, not as large of a spinning disk, with a large coil of 1/2" copper tubing as the non-ferrous heating coil. Rather than a single row of magnets, I arranged two rows of magnetron ring magnets in two rows, the copper coil arranged to go around the entire magnet disk with the entire area of the copper coil exposed to the rotating magnets at a lower RPM. Also, I used a check valve on the cold-water inlet side, and an expansion tank on the heated side with a closed 20-gallon steel tank. A small positive displacement gear motor circulation pump circulates the water back to the beginning point on the heated copper coil. This is closer to what a standard electric water heater would do internally, only with less electric energy. The disk does not need to be helped to begin spinning, other than the start capacitor, and the tank temperature is limited with a single bulb type probe thermostat. It works but I think the slower heating recovery time would take three of these to use in a normal home use scenario providing continuous hot water at around the total heating cost of a standard 40-gallon electric water heater, except this would be continuously heating over the limited recovery time of the standard water heater. - I have noticed the stronger magnets don't require faster motion to do work required. The set temperature I use is 135 degrees F.
Oh by the way, you don’t need magnets and conductors to heat water - you can just spin the water with paddles and it’ll heat up due to friction - this is actually exactly how the heat capacity of water was first calculated as part of a big series of work by Joule
- spin the disk vertically because that makes the next point easier to accomplish - Have two copper circular containers run the circumference of the entire disk. One on each side. - make each container out of a thick laser cut copper disk so that the face of the containers facing the magnets is flat and as close as possible to the magnetic field as possible. The faces of the containers that do not face the magnets can be a material that is easier to work with and doesn’t heat up/lose heat to ambient.
You will get much better result if you generate electricity and use a heating element in the bucket. It will also be simpler to build with fewer parts.
Actually this has the potential to be much more efficient. Every time you convert energy to another form you lose efficiency. This only converts kinetic energy to heat. Your method converts kinetic energy to electricity and then to heat. if this is connected by direct shaft to a wind turbine without the use of gears and pullies the maximum amount of kinetic energy is available to convert to heat. The variable is what materials to use convert to heat and conduct it into the water.
If you can put the copper tube closer to the magnets. That will increase the heating effect exponentially. Also if you can make copper tube more flat it will also increase efficiency. Good luck with the project 💪🏼
2 suggestions: First: insulate tube completely with fire resistive silicon to avoid air ventilation from the wheel. Second: eventually flatten the tube to increase the heating surface.. Thanks for sharing!
Excellent video, really out of the box thinking! If the magnets are too close they will compress the fields. There will be an optimum distance. Thicker pipe will help. Also most car radiators are aluminum. Maybe rows of magnets radiating from the center. With radiators spaced over the wheel. Good luck!
I've ran pipe directly into the hot water heater tank like this using solar heating and thermo dynamics the same as you with great results, solar gain would gradually heat the water even on cloudy days hotter than the ambient water temperature because everything was insulated and heated water rises. I would recommend running the top tank higher, 30-50 feet above the heat source allows for greater temperature and pressure differentials. getting an insulated hot water tank and to wrap your exposed pipe with insulated lagging. The magnetic effect should still work through the 1/2 inch or so of foam insulation. Great work, hope you can rig this up with bicycle chains or something to your wind turbine.
Use a thick tube on the hot water and a thin tube on the cold one. That's how old boilers work. It was used, at least in Sweden, before everyone had electricity for circulation.
The issue is the magnetic field is not fully enclosing the copper pipe. You could make it work better with two discs with magnets(in holes) with a square tubing(or flattened copper tubing) in the middle. Also have a soft iron plate(can be segmented into arc) covering two magnets at a time(can also be glued). The magnet poles need to alternate in the same disc as well as the one below. The magets in top disc and bottom disc should lineup with opposite poles to complete the magnetic circuit through pipe. The two discs can be attached together to make them look like a single disc, with spacing in between. In simple terms, it will resemble a diy windmill generator without coils, but copper tubing on the edge. You also need to slide the flattened tube to position, between discs, instead of flipping it from above. Just some suggestions.
Excellent idea! I enjoy watching your thought processes. The only improvement I can think of, aside from the ones you’ve already considered, is allowing the magnets to go through completely giving you double the surface area for your magnetic induction, bending the pipe so it goes completely around the circle of magnets. Then, turn the pipe under have the pipe go back around and then back out. This way, you would use both sides of the magnet and have the pipe the maximum amount of induction heating for the amount of magnets you have. Just my two cents I hope it makes sense completely around the top and the bottom.
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff* For insulation, buy "pool noodles" & cut length-wise along one side of them (or if you can just disassemble the system & "sleeve" the noodles onto the pipes?, no cutting needed). Quite cheap to buy, decent insulation.
One thing that might help is to have the water outlet from the reservoir be at the bottom, but the inlet be near the top so that instead of mixing caused by the convection of the hot water coming back in, it flows to the top. Unless of course, that slight mixing is desired. Basically the opposite of what a hot water tank does, where the colder water comes in at the bottom and the hot water is drawn out from the top.
Tips, well, the first thing my 6 year old daughter said was that you could also boil the egg in the bucket, once the water heats up enough. 😜 My thoughts: the pipe is probably not optimal to pick up the induction, and it probably isn't the most optimal heat exchanger to get the heat from metal to water. I understand the simplicity and charm of passive circulation, but since this will be driven by a windmill, why not also use a pump for circulation. Heat transfer is more efficient with a bigger temperature difference, so it would probably help efficiency to increase the flow rate.
Wonderful project! You want to maximize the natural convective flow in the system by maximizing the height difference between the cold leg inlet and hot leg outlet while still keeping the hot leg outlet submerged below the surface of the water outlet. You will start to see increased rate of heat transfer.
Way Out West. Something great to use for induction heating would be to surround the copper pipe and or copper wire that has the casing still on it with the water you want to heat up some how also keeping it close enough to the magnets to receive the induction. That's all the insulation you need that you already have.("The water it's self").
Quite a few good suggestions here. The ones that stand out to me are: 1. Put a longer section of pipe over the magnets. This will put more resistance on the wheel (requiring more energy to turn it) but it will extract more energy on each revolution, heating it up faster. Conversely if the windmill ends up having too little power to turn the wheel, reducing the length of this pipe will make it easier to turn at the cost of it taking longer to heat up. 2. Run the wheel vertically so the hot water can rise - when the heated section of pipe is horizontal, the hot water will rise to the top of the horizontal section of pipe but it won't flow out of the pipe into the vertical hoses as readily. Having the heated section vertical means you will get a higher flow rate through the heated pipe. 3. The pipe has to be as close to the magnets as possible. The magnetic field drops off dramatically with distance so every millimetre counts. If you can get the pipe less than one millimetre away from the magnets you'll significantly increase the energy extracted. 4. You're trying to maximise the amplitude (strength) and/or frequency (speed) of the magnetic flux. So instead of a huge wheel with many small magnets, a small wheel with a few huge magnets will yield a similar result. So if the wheel gets too large, you can stack some of the magnets together to make them stronger, and use a smaller wheel instead.
Wonderful video, thanks! I think if a fellow wanted to focus on improving the heater element, he might start with room temperature water, a set time for test, which is short enough to make delta T small enough to not be affected by ambient losses. He might also cut that water volume way down for bigger deltas over shorter tests. He could just have two stand pipes on either end, vinyl hose, flush it from the room temp bucket before every test for super fast test reloads. I'm just an old engineer trying to learn beekeeping, and if I recall, you are trying to generate eddy currents (think tiny little tornadoes) inside metal, more better than last time. Certainly there are specialists, but for us mortals, that's Art, or Voodoo (depending on pay and culture). You need a rig that allows a lot of trial and error. It's going to be an iterative approach. By the way, do you have those travel toys over there, a face with metal filings and a little magnet pen to give the fellow a mustache? If so, you might hold him up to your rig and see what your magnetic field actually looks like. Maybe it's not what you think, or where you think, or maybe it needs some iron laminations to focus it, or spinning magnet disks in each side of the heater, et cetera.
Cover the entire surface of the disk with neodymium magnets. Arrange them in alternating north and south oriented hallbach arrays. Suspend a tightly wound flat coil of copper tubing the size of the disk over the top of the disk, as close as possible to the disk. Maybe add an aluminum track on the disk and attach some bearing rollers to the bottom of the copper pipe so as to maintain optimal distance with low friction.
You will capture much more energy if you make a complete circle of your 3/4" copper piping, elevating one end slightly, to allow for convection circulation of the water, while insulating all of the copper and tubing associated with it including the collection tank. Hope this helps. Built a number of this type of heaters in my time and won the science fair when I was 12 years old with one. Instead of induction heating, though, I was using solar collection for the heat source. Thanks for posting.
I would: 1) Bring the metal much closer to the magnets, maybe stick felt to the bottom of the pipe but it should sit on the disk, friction will be minimal. 2) Another ring of magnets above the metal - but it doesn't need to be a solid disk it only needs to be held to the lower disk, come up and around the pipe. Maybe the pipe should be longer too. Lots of love
Two spinning discs, one on each side of square cross section copper tube. Large iron ring embedded in disc touching back side of magnets. With such a large spinning disc, you might have two circles of magnets and two rings of copper pipe. Great project - Good luck with everything!
Another fantastic video that gets my imagination going! That big disk, all varnished and shiny makes me happy. Haha. I don't have much to say that a dozen other commenters haven't already. Well... maybe for a nice smooth pipe bend, you can try a technique used to bend brass tubing for instruments. To avoid kinks in the tubing, cap one end and fill it with water, then freeze the water into ice. While it's frozen, bend the pipe to keep its circumference even. After it melts, left with a nice curved, round tube. Although, the radius on this pipe seems like it'd be fine using a roller bender without issue. 😅 Amazing work, as always.
Another thought I would like to add, you may wish to insulate a coil that goes all the way around the device because the magnetic field will not be affected by the insulation.
To make it easier to bend the copper pipe, heat it up with a torch. Once the copper is annealed, it will bend very easily. Also, if you can borrow a hand conduit bender, it would be much easier than the hydraulic bender.
Mabe make a circle of copper tubing that follows the full circumference of the magnet wheel, that way all the magnets are continuously heating up the pipe. Also, you'll need lots of insulation and an insulated hot water reservoir. Also, try adding "check valves" to make sure the hot water is being circulated and is constantly being heated. The hot water might not actually be flowing.
I was thinking this, but then would it not make more sense to make the pipe the same shape as a serpentine coil. As is the pipe is exposed to the same state of magnetic flux at the same time which is likely negating the effect. If the entire serpentine pjpe is only above north or south at the same time it should get a better effect from the alternating magnetic field. You could also have another coil of pipe underneath for double the distance. Requires some complicated pipe bending but should be doable with 6mm ID soft copper. Scrap that copper isnt magnetic. 2 circular pipes that run above and below with a small circle of stainless steel the same size and the magnet attached to the copper pipe. This would need to be every other magnet so it’s not exposed to north and south at the same time. The steel gets hot and transferee the heat to the copper pipe. Because the copper isn’t magnetic it won’t be effected by being over both magnets at once. You may also need a small mechanical pump as water is effected by strong magnetic fields even tho is technically not magnetic.
Maybe solder or weld a copper strip on the bottom of the pipe to catch a wider area of the 'flux' field. I think the tube has only a very small surface close to the magnets.
I was about to suggest this as well, perhaps with flat bottomed square pipe or pip with heat conducting bottom plate / fins all covered in insulating foam on top. Also, I wonder about a double but thinner tube so it can coil around more than once. Finally, If you can increase the stability of the spin so the pipe can get as close to the magnets as possible without hitting (a mm or so) you'll make the absolute most of the magnet strength.
@@mikeutube82 what about a follower wheel running on the disc holding the pipe a set distance off the disc.
going to agree that you might be better off doing a complete copper ring as all the other flips are being wasted ....
Really cool: I’m an hvac designer and do heat loss related calculations as part of my work. The energy to heat the 5L of water 10 degrees is: Q=mc(dT) = (4184J/kg C)(5kg)(10C) = 209,200J. Since it was heated over 10 min that’s 209,200J/600s = 348.6 Watts of power. It’s hard to estimate the losses since I don’t know the ambient air temperature, but at 23C water, assuming about 13C ambient: I’m estimating around 250 Watts or so, with some quick lookups, with around 80% of that loss being in the piping. So that’s at least the same ball park as the above calculation: if you insulated everything you might be able to heat up a bit of water for a sink or a small outdoor shower.. (or, you can pipe it in to a regular water heater and reduce your demand, and probably eliminate your standby demand to keep the water hot when not in use) nice work!
I just knew someone would calculate that - well done!
Yeah, but the energy required to rotate the entire wheel plus the frictions and tremblings and pipings will get you a net loss.
So apart from a fun experiment, and maybe human-powered (via bike, or manual gearing), it’s mostly useless.
Without talking about the initial cost of the energy need for magnetizing the magnets.
Yes. I envision a stationary bike sitting next to a hot water tank. Every morning someone gets on and pedals like the devil. They get their exercise AND they bring a tank of water up to temp for the day (or, at least, offset the fuel used to heat it.)
You never know, we might all have to do this someday when the power grid goes down... 🤔
Maybe pay attention to the watts, current and voltage of the drill there could be a voltage drop under load in the drill input end. Then circle the entire wheel to take advantage of the full circumference. Keep the loads balanced. Before a coil burns out it generally starts to draw more current.
I double checked it an yeah (((5000*4.184*10)*1J)/(10minutes)) is 350ish watts. There's no way that system is at thermal equilibrium yet. I have a 400w engine block heater I put on the hydraulic oil tank of a log splitter (its 2 gallons, I think) and it will get up to 50C starting from -15C over an admittedly longer period of time, but with a LOT more thermal losses.
Theres nothing better on youtube than an old man making cool stuff out of essentially junk
I'd imagine he put out a good bit of money to get rare earth magnets of that size.
Junk?? do you know what a neodynium magnet is???
He got them for free if you had listened to the first part of his video!
Ageist
It's not cool if all he is doing is re-inventing the wheel. Let's see something NEW and INNOVATIVE!!
Starting work as an apprentice plumber way back in 1948. When fitting hot water cylinders. The hot water pipe from the boiler went from the top of the boiler into the side of the cylinder near the top. The return from the cylinder went from near the bottom of the cylinder to the bottom of the boiler. Thus giving a continuous circuitous flow as the water heated up. This may work on your system and increase the water temperature? Your water supply seemed to have both in and out pipes at the same level. All interesting stuff, Tim. Go with the flow.😉
When my man speaks of building a Windmill, you just know that he's got some wonderful thoughts going through his head every second of the day.
Thanks!
This looks so close to your original concept, I love it! Everyone is telling you to overcomplicate it but it feels 90% there - it looks like quite a big air gap between the copper pipe and magnets which you want to minimise, and it clearly wants insulation but it looks almost there
My thoughts exactly. I know clearance tolerances are sketchy and impacts rather worrisome, but there's a lot of heating potential left because of that larger gap.
I wouldn't try to fix the gap first. I would go 4x on the heating elements. It is less complicated, you need to replicate the existing infrastructure, and along with isolation it could expose true potential. But at the same time I am not an expert on magnetic induction
Turn the disk so it's vertical, and the axis of rotation is horizontal. That will put a vertical orientation to the heating pipes so convection is stronger. Make a pipe that bends to follow the magnets for a bit less than 180 degrees. The inlet will be attached at the low end, and the outlet will be attached to the top end. Make a mirror image for the other half of the disk.
Then, add more rows of magnets to the disk and make two more collector pipes for each row of magnets.
Are you taking medication, or did you miss taking it? 😵💫
And don't forget a back flow preventer ball, so the water leaves the heat source in only one direction. (Like a coffee pot)
@ Good one! 👍
That is going to be problem when the mill needs to turn to the wind.
@@Axel_Andersen
Bevel gears.
Car differentials have them and differentials can be bought from junk yards for very little money.
I gasped at 2:55. That was a close one!
You don't make that mistake twice.
That was no magnetic force doing that. The UK is full of cheeky ghosts who play tricks on the living.
I did not notice that until you pointed it out...
If you're getting views and comments from nighthawkinlight then you're doing something right 👍
@@paulj9587Or, in this case, almost something very wrong. The danger that situation posed was pretty high.
Two suggestions for improvement. First you have an open magnetic circuit; the underneath is completed in air. A Halback array will make a massive difference to the flux induced. Secondly, your copper pipe is too thin. A thicker block of copper will generate more internal current and hence heat. Try to minimise all air gaps. For your present arrangement, magnetic steel lamination connecting north south under the disk will help. Good luck Dr Paul
Difference
I agree with everything except the Halbach array, if he did that it would space out the flipped poles so while it would definitely get stronger on the top side it might reduce the flux so it might be tricky to get it to work better (there's probably a clever way around that though), it might also be difficult if he's using the same kind of magnets on the rotated ones to get them to happily fit snuggly into the disk. A laminated steel "magnetic yolk" is a great idea but it would add a fair amount of mass to the rim and you'd have to be careful to avoid laminated steel throwing stars... you could probably use a microwave oven transformer cut into pieces. It's also a good way to remove the temptation of using the microwave oven transformer for something more electrically dangerous, lol. (Those things are terrifying)
Yes, a good magnetic steel under the magnets will increase the flux on top side by almost a factor of 2*. It does not need to be laminated as the flux on the bottom side will be almost constant. It must be thick enough that it does not saturate too much though. As the heating effect is close to quadratic of the magnetic flux, increasing it by a factor of 2 will give about 4 times the heating assuming is all else is the same. *Assuming the magnets are mounted directly on the so called back-iron.
He could also put a coffee cup immersion heater in the bucket of water.
Also add a small amount of acid or alkali to the water to make it conduct electricity better.
Even tho i'm an engineer i'm not super sure but i was under the assumption that iron was the best metal to use to carry magnetic fields, then i have heard one want to avoid magnetic storms in transformers, that is supposedly why one use laminated steel in transformers.
To verify if this is the case one can use a solid block of steel and see how fast that heats up compared to a laminated equivalent.
the air gap between the magnets and the steel/copper/aluminium/whatever matters alot.
You might also want to monitor the temperature of the magnets becuse they probably also heat up just as fast as the thing you are trying to heat.
It might melt the resin and start flying away and carsh in to things and yourself, major risk of injuries in this case, i bet they will all fly away in a 12 second window if they reach the melting point of the resin.
I'm fascinated to learn that this works with copper pipe. We have an induction hob in our kitchen and the manufacturer's documentation made it very clear that we absolutely must use pans that have ferrous bases. I'm under the impression that your alternating magnets replicate the way an induction cooker works, albeit at a lower frequency.
Brilliant video Tim, as always. Thanks for publishing...
Tims wheel works by alternating a magnetic field to induce an electric current, meaning the material only needs to be electrically conductive. An induction hob works by alternating an electric current to induce a magnetic field, meaning the material needs to be magnetic. That's why most stainless steels won't work on an induction hob either.
@ OK, that makes sense. Thank you!
Copper and aluminium are too conductive. Instead of turning power into heat, it goes back into the induction heater's coil. The coil needs to be rated for the total power, not just the power that heats the pan. A coil rated for 1000W might only be able to put 15W of heat into a copper pan. Magnets don't really have a power rating because their magnetic fields don't change.
Austenitic stainless is only slightly less efficient at heating than ferritic stainless or carbon steel, but that still represents double or more power being returned to the coil.
The difference in efficiency is most likely due to magnetic hysteresis - energy lost when the magnetic field changes direction. Non magnetic metals are dependant entirely on electrical resistance to induced currents to produce heat.
Finally, aluminium and copper will levitate given enough power. Having pans flying off the hob isn't ideal, but an induction furnace can make use of this to create levitating balls of molten metal. There are plenty of clips of that here on UA-cam.
Non ferrous mate, a ferrous base is iron or steel which don’t work and will probably damage the hob that’s why you use aluminium bases or copper basses.
@ Sorry but the pans absolutely do have to have ferrous bases. The instructions recommend taking a magnet to the shop to make sure...
Glad to see an update on this project I don't have any ideas to make it work better.
Finally, someone like me, who doesn't know, lol
Could you measure the power draw from the motor, with and without the pipe in place? The currents in the pipe oppose the rotation of the disk, putting strain on the motor.
The difference in power draw would give you an upper limit on how much heat is produced in the pipe.
Suggestion: Partially flatten the copper pipe holding the water. That will allow the water to heat more rapidly, causing greater thermal flow.
Pretty cool!.
You did a fine job! That's how discoverys are made
Here’s my thoughts Tim. So before you go to the trouble of insulating the water pipes and tank and seeing what the temperature rise of the volume of water over time is, ie the amount of energy transferred. Like an electrical generator you can quickly see what the power output versus the power in is, ie the efficiency by measuring the power delivered into a resistive load whilst measuring the current into the motor with the load attached?
Well we can clearly see “work being done” in your water heater and your load is the effectively the copper pipe with a volume of water contained in the active length of tube in proximity to the magnets, yeah? So If you put a clamp meter over the incoming live or neutral conductor of the mains to the motor and monitor the current into the motor once the disc is up to speed, so in order to improve the efficiency of the system then if you move the copper pipe towards the spinning disc magnets and away, there should be a noticeable change in current drawn by the motor because we know then that work is certainly being done and energy is being transferred into the copper pipe and the water being heated.
So my thinking is if it was me I would firstly be thinking that I need to get my copper “pickup” system, ie the copper pipe to be as efficient as possibly. Now I appreciate that you probably have thought all about this and some may suggest why not just have a copper induction coil and generate electricity instead but that’s not your intention here as you want to directly heat water?
We are passing an alternating magnetic field into a copper pipe and the eddy currents in the pipe are producing heat, thinking about the magnetic field and the size and strength of the actual magnetic field and let’s briefly compare to an electrical generator for a moment… in the pick-up coil of the electrical generator, the coupled output power is determined by the length and thickness of the wire composing the coil so we want to add as much “copper” into the pickup,coil as we can and we do that in two possible ways, we wind as many turns of the wire into the coil as possible. We can increase the number of turns of wire by reducing the thickness of the wire that will give us a higher voltage out but reduce the current because of the effective series resistance of the length of copper wire. So if we increase the thickness of the copper wire we will clear.y have to reduce the number of turns in the coil so we increases the current but reduce the voltage, we therefore choose the optimum amount of turns versus the thickness of the wire. Now we need to capture as much of that rotating magnetic field into the surface area of the pickup coil and so we add an iron core to the pickup coil (we laminate the core to reduce the loss due to eddy currents) so that we can transfer as much of the magnetic flux from the spinning disc.
Going back to the water heater system we need to think about the eddy currents that are being produced and how can we increase them? I would experiment with the size, shape and mass of the copper “pickup” system. So what about trying some of the below:
1) if you replace the copper pipe with a solid lump of copper - the shape may be important - try a disc or a cube, extend the length of the disc or cube to make a cylinder or cuboid and adjust the length and proximity of the object to get the biggest draw in motor current. Try maybe a hexagonal cross sectional area of the block? So if you find the bock heats up really quickly then that might be better if you solder a spiral coil onto the top of the block to transfer the heat into the water?
2) Compare the above results with those obtained from taking some thinner tube say 8 or 10mm diameter and wind a flat spiral and once again monitor the motor current whilst moving the position of the pickup tube. Try even a vertical coil of tubing versus the previously described flat coil. What about stacking a number of the flat spiral tubes on top of each other or wind 2 or 3 vertical coils of different diameters to sit inside each other and then connect all of the tubes together therefore maximising the volume of water being heated.
3) If you experimenting with option 2 and using multiple coils then it might be important to electrically isolate each tube as you don’t want to produce an induction coil so if you connect all of the separate tubes with neoprene or silicon tube then this might maximise the amount of eddy currents in the total surface area of the copper ? Taking it a stage further to prevent the water conductivity reducing the efficiency you might need to add an electrically insulating lining to the tube but using one that has good thermal conductivity ?
Sorry for the lengthy explanation, I have ADHD a and I have to describe my thinking as a logical series of steps, I struggle to be concise lol 😂
@buffplums : To be concise in writing, try the "enumeration method", around 70% or the "words flood"- will be eliminated!..😂
Didnt read any comments before i typed my own extended comment.
Also said that hes not going to gain much (some 10% at best) from isolation of the tubing.
I estimated the motor power delivery, bc he gave the output, so i could guesstulate the efficiency. I came to 20%, very roughly of course.
Which means he has to get 3 times more energy out of the system (so 4 times what is now), wihouth increasing input of course, to start to become competative with a generator (80% efficiency minimal).
Atm 80% is losses. Since you cant decrease that from isolation and friction from belt, bearings, and so, it means a big overhaul of the system itself.
Not only the pick up as you and i saw just now some others too have mentioned, but the entire disc will have to be encased. That means heat will rise inside aswell, which is good, bc it contributes to the water heating up and also helps in providing a failsafe device. But it has consequences for design and materials chosen, as that captured heat inside the3 enclosure also affects everything in there.
Thats also when isolation becomes beneficial. As output water is hotter, losses rise, as a bigger delta t = more losses. So only then will you see a benefit from isolation, when the water actually becomes hot. Water of 23 celcius in a room of close to 20 celcius is minimal losses. far less than 1 %
Funny to see how everyone focusses on their own thing.
I focussed more on the system in total and losses and so, while you focus more on the pickup system. ;]
oops
Said room is 20, bit is 13ish. So a bit more delta t. Still wouldnt be a high amount of loss though.
Having said that, the temp doesnt rise anymore after it reaching 23, which means losses are as big as gains. So at that point its 100% loss.
Since delta t is still low, that means the energy from induction is very low. If it cant keep up the low loss of a delta t of some 10 degrees, its very low.
The isolation he says it needs, is not going to fix that.
The plastic pipe already has some isolation properties. He's probably already losing almost as much as he gains in the copper pipe, to air. Air will also be moving there, since the disc spins fast. And even though air is a good insolator, moving air is not. Losses will be high there.
And they deleted my entire post under the video.... with calculations.
How crazy can it get with censoring?
Don’t feel bad. UA-cam has censored myself on numerous occasions for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Being truthful, transparent and honest will get you removed and then the handcuffs go on for a while. I can’t understand their reasoning and they never explain theirs
Well Sir, there are a few things that occurred to me
1. The balance is critical for stability. There are procedures online for manual trial weight balancing or if you have a friend with vibration analysis gear.
2. You essentially have a gigantic disk and for heating, you can double the effectiveness by mounting 2 heaters like a disk brake caliper with a screw advance to control the gap more precisely.
3. For insulation, your idea for a woolie-pulley was pretty close to what I had in mind.😅 look for old wool blankets or moving padding and wrap the metal in aluminum foil then apply the fabric and then wrap the whole works. Wire will work or even duct tape.
I love watching your experiments as I absolutely loved that aspect of being in university for Mechanic Engineering Technology and now that I'm retired, I appreciate content like yours and CEE Australia for trade-related content because I'm also an HD Equipment Mechanic 😅
Oh, and modify the shape of your pipe by making it "D" shaped with the flat to the magnets 🧲 for maximum effect 😉👍🍻
Pool noodles for insulation
@jfk720 I thought about that 🤔 but I was concerned about melting it in the heater because it could get quite toasty 🥵. The aluminum foil and non-synthetic fibers may be more resistant 😉
For convenience, hot water pipe insulation foam wraps could work if away from the heater 🤔
Also big copper blocks would be more effective.
@ryelor123 maybe 🤔 more metal is more metal to heat and the goal is to heat the water.
Also, a coiled copper pipe may be an option and easier to replace. ¼" -⅜" line with compression fittings🙂
When bending copper pipe. Anneal it first! Heat it to glowing red and let it cool or quench it (it doesn’t matter how quickly you cool it) it won’t kink and it will be much easier to bend. Copper pipe work hardens over time but annealing it won’t take away much burst rating.
copper that is red hot will not bend, it will tear at the spot that has the most stress on it. A simple proper pipe bender would have worked just fine.
I either fill it with sand or freeze water in it before bending.
@@joeharper448he's talking about heat treatment not forging.
Unless it's very old pipe it won't be pure copper it will be a cupronickel alloy and the extra hardness makes it prime to kinks, I'm not sure how much annealing will help?
Tom, you truly are the mad genius
What do you do in your life you ? why don't you respect such an effort ?
Excellent work as always! Almost inevitable that every home will have one of these in the kitchen at some stage Tim!
Most people do these days - its called a stove with induction heating.
@@hypercube33 you are lots of fun at parties I'll wager :(
I haven't read the comments, but one thing I would consider is having a taller, narrower water container with a pipe fitting at the bottom and one at the top just below the surface of the water. The effect would be to induce a circular flow of the water, the cooler water at the bottom will sink down while the hotter return water will go to the top, Insulate the whole water system to improve efficiency. You have a very unique and potentially valuable idea.
I love your commentary almost as much as your ambition. Nice video as always. 👍🏼
Great effort! 1. Insulate all the pipework and bucket to reduce radiant heat losses. 2. Extend the copper pipe beside the magnets. 3 Measure rpm of the disk while 4. Measure current draw on the motor driving the disk vs revs per minute, to make sure the setup is not stalling. Adjust distance of copper pipe from the disk to max torque without stalling the motor, which equals max heating effect. 5. Keep having fun, because we are! Notes: You could measure torque by deflection of a spring loaded idler pulley on the belt. For a setup with 'natural' inputs like wind or a water wheel, there will be an optimum torque vs rpm at which you will get maximum power out. Adjust the length of copper pipe or its distance from the disk to adjust how much power is being extracted while letting the setup run in the optimum torque/rpm range. Data is king!
Great work Tim !! Real interesting stuff, thanks
Brilliant effort & thank you for sharing & using your talents and knowledge to help humanity & inspire others … Indianapolis IN USA
I love this, fantastic outside the box thinking. Not sure how safe I would feel next to it though 😅 but great proof of concept.
That is big fun, thanks for inviting us along!
Wow, so very cool, love this project! Also, 10 degree in 10 minutes looks great to me, if i'm not incorrect the ambient temperature was pretty low too. Insulation would surely help a lot!. My suggestions (you'll surely already tought of them) are to make two or three circles of magnets, instead of just one (eventually even more). Then loop the tube in a spiral so that each loop sits exacly on top of a circle of magnets. This way you'll multiply your heating power by two or three. If i understood correctly, the windmill will spin slowly but have a great torque so extra drag wouldn't be an issue. Also on due time, you can dump the whole spiral in an insulating material like expanding foam, as to create a disk that will sit on top of the spinning wheel. Another suggestion: add one of those wheely thing that show the flow of water on the pipes so you can see how much the heat causes circulation (unuseful but interesting :P)
I admire your determination in making a project this large.
We use thermal syphons at work. Some things we do are: 1 keep the pipes short. 2 The hot pipe should enter the liquid in the reservoir 2/3 of the way up in the side with the return from the bottom. 3 At the end that heats the water, the cold should come in the bottom and hot out the top... SO im thinking, you mount this thing on its side. You make a full ring of copper with 2 t-pieces, top and bottom, you pipe it into an insulated reservoir as described before and see how that does. If you had a reservoir higher than this diameter you could mount this said contraption on the side and pipe it straight in.
Just a thought , the tube being round has a stronger pull at the closest point to the magnets and get weaker as it comes up the side of the tube , use square section instead of tube , it will keep the field even over the surface and give a much more consistent heating
For smaller gap, you could put rollers under, its also might take wonkiness away.
I love your voice man I need you to voice a book so bad it reminds me of Bilbo Baggins reading reading a bedtime story and its comforting.
Yes, what accent is that?
It's harder to construct, but a duct-in-duct arrangement might be more effective. A rotating barrel with the magnets in multiple rows mounted on the outside of an inner duct, to pass the working fluid (water, air, whatever), with a circular bearing at each end to maintain the smallest gap possible. There's an old design that had a layer of oil between two such cylindrical pieces. Come to think of it, if the outer cylinder is ferrous or the magnets are just strong enough, they could be mounted on the outside, to keep the inner side smooth and create a very tight gap.
Year, that's how Eddy currents will be generated in all of the pipe instead only in the potion facing the magnets as now.👍
Tight gap, heheh
1. Mount magnets with an exposed face on each side of the wheel. Consider casting magnets in epoxy, then milling?
2. Have pipe in a full circle on both sides of the wheel.
3. Balance wheel.
4. Minimize air gap between pipe and wheel.
5. Insulate system.
Love the idea, now I want to do something similar.
Flatten the tube so more surface area close to the magnets. This will also make the water surface heated larger
❤ glad I'm not the only one thinking about flat bottom pipes.
@@MAGnetICus_Attractus I prefer my "bottoms" rounded!😁😁
i'm envisioning a stack of discs with those laptop style heat pipes betwixt. flat and sintered for internal porosity.
That improves the coupling to the magnets which will increase the torque needed. There is a trade off where too much can stall the turbine reducing the power.
Flattening cold copper tubing may cause fractures, might have forge it
Flywheel induction masterpiece, brilliant
Still look at Vertical-axis turbines for your back garden. They strong because both ends of the shaft is supported. Less chance of running afoul with height restrictions. Easier to service. Heating water one side and the opposite side coils to produce 12 volts and battery. Charging battery power tools.🤔
I am pondering over a number of improvements:
1: Take a thick walled square tube over a much larger part of the circumference. The flat bottom at a short distance will meet more eddy currents and the energy transfer will be more effective.
2: Halve this (imo too large) large circle, but make two of them. Sandwich the flat tube between these two rotating plates, so that the flat tube is heated from below and at the top.
3: Place the whole thing in a heat-insulated environment
4: Now first do a number of measurements. At what rpm is the supplied heat energy sufficient?
5: Determine an average speed of the windmill to be built, and if that delivers too low rpm (as expected), then determine which transmission should be placed between the engine and the heat generator to optimize the whole setup.
Maybe it is even better to make more than two disks. A thick walled tube could be a problem. Aluminium is available as thick walled round tube. Maybe it is doable to flatten the sides after bending.
Nice to see the update on this project, I would love to give this a go myself, but those magnets are really expensive.
You can do a smaller scale, home depot sells packs of the neodymium magnets for a reasonable price in store. Make like a coffee cup warmer
This a neat project.
If you make another wheel, consider putting something ferrous metal on the under side of the disc where you're inserting a magnet. The magnet should then stick to that metal through the wood and massively reduce the risk of it coming out of the hole and trying to re-attach to the stack of magnets you're still holding.
Making some wooden u-shaped tabs to slide over each space to hold the magnet in place while you slot the next ones in means no need to wait for glue to dry, you can then make a second wheel with a lot of slots cut in to fit over those tabs and just place it on top. No need for glue at that point.
Lots of great ideas and tips in this comment. Making clips to hold the magnets is really smart.
I seen some of these concepts on UA-cam, but you made it neat.
Whenever I see one of your videos pop up, click on it and I get so much joy even just from the intro starting.. you are so wholesome, it brings me much happiness.
We use copper square pipe at work for heat treating. We run cold water through the pipe to keep it cool as it heating up huge steel forgings.
Could you solder some plate on the tube to get more area. The perhaps use plastic pipe after the induction part just in case it`s sucking energy away.
Love watching you take the path less traveled as always, Tim! P.S. A thermal camera might be a worthwhile investment for this project
🔥
That is really cool. Thanks for sharing ❤
The motive force in a convectiom circuit is gravity. The warm water has a lower density than the cold. This makes it lighter in comparrison. Gravity then pulls the heavy cold side down which lifts the lighter warm side. Much like a seesaw. The initial surge of heat is due to the fact that the water isnt flowing. So more energy is passed to the stationery water, once it starts to flow however each pass through the heat and only pick up so much of the energy. Think a roundabout, its easy to give that first big spin but actually harder to keep putting that same energy in to make it go faster, you end up with a maximum energy transfer.
To improve energy transfer you need more water in contact with the copper, the water in the middle of the pipe is doing nothing, and you need more copper closer to the magnets. Either a rectangular pipe or perhaps 3 pieces of 10mm side by side would work
ua-cam.com/video/GVR8OS_GzMU/v-deo.htmlsi=IZKu8Kf6aPU7T4Wx gives an idea of what is happening inside the pipe.
You got that balanced nicely! Cool project 😊
Very interesting, Tim. MDF will not keep its shape in this setup but I think you know that already. I'm looking forward to you and the commenter's figuring this out and then powering it with a windmill. So many uses for a windmill. Cheers 🇨🇦
Loved watching you build! You are an inspiration to tinkers everywhere. My two cents: 1) your MDF will sag in horizontal orientation, go vertical. 2) As another post suggested, this will make it easier to extend the pickup coil to cover more magnets. 3) if you go vertical, think about making a sandwich with two triangles of plywood or 1/2 sheets, depending on what you have, with a cutout for your hub, and solid wood on at least the bottom edge, and you might have to add a support bearing for the top side. 4) leave some room on the side of the sandwich where the edge of the rotor sticks thru and seal it off with 2x4 slotted in the middle. 5) the slotted piece gets at least one pair of bearings or casters, etc, mounted to stabilize the wobble like on a bandsaw. 6) now you can mount your pickup tube very close the magnets. 7) consider routing a channel in the flat side of a 2x6 or 2x8 that precisely matches the curve and smash your pickup tube into it, hammering flat on one side 8) now screw that onto the slotted 2x from suggestion 4, getting the tube and magnets as close as possible. 9) if you magnetize the other side, pickup tube can u-turn at the bottom a heat additionally , 10) there is a lot of spare capacity to mount small coils for charging things or lights. 11) thanks for sharing! And good luck.
G'day Tim and Sandra from Adelaide, Australia! I've been watching your videos for a while now and I'd just like to say thanks for inspiring me to make my own items from complete scratch. You make the most amazing and practical items from all sorts of bits and bobs. It also makes very entertaining videos. This is truly the best part to UA-cam. Keep up the great work and thanks!
That looks... horrifyingly safe. It's great. I'm pretty sure the best bet for increasing heat is going to be decreasing the gap between the pipe and the magnets, or increasing the length of the area in contact. It's a bit hard to tell, but it looks like the pipe and magnets are a cm apart at closest, but you really want them to be uncomfortably close to capture as much of the flux as possible- motors seem like they're sub mm, but I figure you'd do fine at 2-4mm. If you could flatten the copper pipe so that more of it's closer to the magnets that might help, though probably better would be getting a thin flat copper sheet/plate and soldering it to the pipe.
Induction stoves use electromagnets, maybe that would work better.
Thanks Tim 😃
If there's a lot of inertia stopping he disc from spinning, does that mean the windmill will only be able to spin it on very windy days? On days with moderate wind you might have to go out and get it going by hand maybe?
I was wondering that too. I suppose some sort of ratcheting mechanism might be useful, so the windmill can add energy into the wheel without having the wheel turn the windmill when the wind is variable. If that makes sense.
I've seen some wind charts of his area, he has a lot of wind and very variable as well. I expect there will be some moments where the mill stalls, but there will also be gusts of wind to jolt it in action again. And with the size of windmill he is building, I think he will already generate quite a lot of energy.
Gym goers could spin wheel
Brilliant Tim! Such exciting progress:)
Rotation to heat - just use a shorted out electric motor. There are cheap watercooled car alternators which do just this to help warming up the car faster. You will get the bearings and pulley for free and it will even be possible to regulate power by shorting the three phase wires in different ways. The trick which makes the alternator smaller for the same power is it having a closed magnetic loop with small air gap which your arangement does lack.
I think the issue with that is the RPM needs to be much higher than what he has here with the large diameter wheel
@@Your_Friend_Corey use a big pulley on the windmill shaft. Otherwise there are real Megawatt wind turbines with a directly driven slow generator
Very cool project. A tip, instead of screwing in the pieces of wood to hold the magnets in place you could have placed another magnet on the opposite side
What would happen if you put the wheel next to an old cast iron radiator?
What would happen if you put 2 full loops of copper over the magnets?
What would happen if there were 2 rows of magnets? (The same work spinning, but twice the heat? ) Just love the messing around and finding out as we go!
Next to an old cast iron radiator? It would slowly start to heat it up.
Two full loops of copper over the magnets? It would heat up but put more drag on the wheel slowing it down (or requiring more energy to keep it at the same speed).
Two rows of magnets? You'd get twice the magnetic power but also double the force trying to slow the wheel down, a bit like pressing your foot on a car's brake pedal twice as hard - sure you get more heat in the brake pads but the car stops more quickly as well.
please @robinkirk3601 can you help us too ? - can't you do experiments too ? because we are few people it is really hard work to awake the sheeps
Love what your doing, and yes I have the idea you need take about 10 feet of copper pipe and bend it back and forth until you have what looks like a water radiator and then build a frame or box around and fill full of insulation I would use spray foam but depending on how hot it gets your gonna wanna wrap the pipes first with fire proof thermal wrap like exhaust wrap for a motor bike, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have planned next and I and have plenty of ideas too
You can stuff copper wool in the pipes to heat the water better
Ooh! Great idea!
And make turbulance in pipe and water in the midle of pipe can heat up too plus more surface area but reduce flow
how laptop cooling pipes work. sintered for internal porosity. thanks for sharing the low budget version though- your version normal hobbyists can make.
i absolutely adore watching your projects, keep up the good work!
I know this project is kind of just fiddling about. So feel free to ignore this and the slightly factious comment.
Now there is another type of system that simplifies where the inductor placement and design. If you take the magnets and arrange them along a rotating spinning shaft you can concentrate the magnetic flux in a very small area. This is wonderful for simplifying the mechanical size and controlling rotor speeds considerably.
Now if you surround this magnetic field with loops of wire, you can transfer the magnetic flux to a coil a surprising distance away. If you size the other coil to the side and shape of the pot/pan you are using you can induce the same energy. And surprisingly the efficiency of the entire system will be no different from using the mechanical linkage to the rotor of magnets.
(I.e. you have essentially made an electric generator in a rather inefficient configuration. Many of the early electric experiments did use large flywheels of rotating disks of permanent magnets. The only change in efficiency for using wire to connect it to a remote coil is the resistance and length of then wire. Which would probably cancel out the inefficiency in the large flywheels design. There is no difference in the transfer of mechanical energy to electrical vs magnetic flux…it’s essentially identical)
_"a rotating spinning shaft"_
Do you mean rotating in two different axis at the same time?
@ nice catch there
The best thing you can do for efficiency is two thing balance out the magnet wheel. Vibration and shaking = more input power needed. And anneal the copper before bending it and a cheap set of bending springs will prevent kinking
Just remember, if you get those magnets hot enough, they will stop being magnets.
140F, i think..not sure tho
@trunn3023 - they don't get hot the magnets, they produce a magnetic field.
cool design, been thinking of similar designs myself just for fun to get a hot tub at my cabin that can be used even in winter time.
there are multiple ways of making this more effective:
1) make the copper tube extend in circle above all the magnets. Im not sure if this works but could potentially also do a loop under the disc.
2) thicker hoses/pipes, this will allow larger quantities of water to be transported at same time, this will slow down the heat loss
a design i've been considering is doing a cylinder with magnets in it where a copper tube goes down and then up again. this will allow every magnet to affect the heating area while still keeping the design small.
if we are doing a windmill design then the issue is keeping a steady speed, gonna need to look into a automatic gear system so that the cylinder stays at same rotation speed regardless of how fast the windmill is spinning, potentially a automatic lock and semi brakes for when it about to spin too fast
Hot water is less dense than cold water, this is how Victorian gravity central heating systems ran before electric motors.
Brilliant! Keep up the good work!
Put the spinning magnets above and below and then spin those magnets in opposite directions and then another wheel of magnets on the outside of those spinning magnets only turn them vertically with a oscillating wheel that will move back and forth along the length of the copper and before you say that could be hard your question was for an idea not how to set it up. LOLSSS
By having the pipe follow the magnets, the fields aren't flipping as often. That would explain why the water got so much hotter with your shorter pipe in the earlier experiment with 40 magnets. The fields cancel eachother out if two opposite polarities are seen by your metal conductor at the same moment. Try putting the pipe at eight angles to the magnets so that only one polarity of magnet hits the metal at any given moment. I think this may give you a better result.
It's not the moving magnetic field that heats the metal. The moving magnetic field causes electrons in the metal to move in synchrony, which causes friction. The friction of the motion of the electrons heats the metal.
You dont seem to understand cause and effect.
Electrons moving is heat. Heat is just kinetic energy of subatomic particles.
So, it’s almost like the moving magnetic field causes the metal to heat up?
I love it! Great work!
I don’t know but if you had a large circle of pipe same size as disk would that work, really enjoy your work, thank you
I've been working on something similar, not as large of a spinning disk, with a large coil of 1/2" copper tubing as the non-ferrous heating coil. Rather than a single row of magnets, I arranged two rows of magnetron ring magnets in two rows, the copper coil arranged to go around the entire magnet disk with the entire area of the copper coil exposed to the rotating magnets at a lower RPM. Also, I used a check valve on the cold-water inlet side, and an expansion tank on the heated side with a closed 20-gallon steel tank. A small positive displacement gear motor circulation pump circulates the water back to the beginning point on the heated copper coil. This is closer to what a standard electric water heater would do internally, only with less electric energy. The disk does not need to be helped to begin spinning, other than the start capacitor, and the tank temperature is limited with a single bulb type probe thermostat. It works but I think the slower heating recovery time would take three of these to use in a normal home use scenario providing continuous hot water at around the total heating cost of a standard 40-gallon electric water heater, except this would be continuously heating over the limited recovery time of the standard water heater. - I have noticed the stronger magnets don't require faster motion to do work required. The set temperature I use is 135 degrees F.
Oh by the way, you don’t need magnets and conductors to heat water - you can just spin the water with paddles and it’ll heat up due to friction - this is actually exactly how the heat capacity of water was first calculated as part of a big series of work by Joule
Well, that would leave you with scrambled eggs, not fried...
He tried that in "Heating Water With Friction - How Practical Is It? Interesting Experiment!" and it wasn't very good.
- spin the disk vertically because that makes the next point easier to accomplish
- Have two copper circular containers run the circumference of the entire disk. One on each side.
- make each container out of a thick laser cut copper disk so that the face of the containers facing the magnets is flat and as close as possible to the magnetic field as possible. The faces of the containers that do not face the magnets can be a material that is easier to work with and doesn’t heat up/lose heat to ambient.
You will get much better result if you generate electricity and use a heating element in the bucket. It will also be simpler to build with fewer parts.
Where's the fun in that?
Actually this has the potential to be much more efficient. Every time you convert energy to another form you lose efficiency. This only converts kinetic energy to heat. Your method converts kinetic energy to electricity and then to heat. if this is connected by direct shaft to a wind turbine without the use of gears and pullies the maximum amount of kinetic energy is available to convert to heat. The variable is what materials to use convert to heat and conduct it into the water.
@@TomsBackyardWorkshop The complexity of the build using direct heating and the tolerances needed makes the system a lot less efficient.
How do you generate electricity?
@@TomsBackyardWorkshop But efficiency is lost in the form of waste energy, aka heat. which is what he wants!
One last thing, thank you for the videos. I really do enjoy them.
Texas is watching.
If you can put the copper tube closer to the magnets.
That will increase the heating effect exponentially. Also if you can make copper tube more flat it will also increase efficiency.
Good luck with the project 💪🏼
2 suggestions:
First: insulate tube completely with fire resistive silicon to avoid air ventilation from the wheel.
Second: eventually flatten the tube to increase the heating surface..
Thanks for sharing!
Excellent video, really out of the box thinking! If the magnets are too close they will compress the fields. There will be an optimum distance. Thicker pipe will help. Also most car radiators are aluminum. Maybe rows of magnets radiating from the center. With radiators spaced over the wheel. Good luck!
I've ran pipe directly into the hot water heater tank like this using solar heating and thermo dynamics the same as you with great results, solar gain would gradually heat the water even on cloudy days hotter than the ambient water temperature because everything was insulated and heated water rises. I would recommend running the top tank higher, 30-50 feet above the heat source allows for greater temperature and pressure differentials. getting an insulated hot water tank and to wrap your exposed pipe with insulated lagging. The magnetic effect should still work through the 1/2 inch or so of foam insulation. Great work, hope you can rig this up with bicycle chains or something to your wind turbine.
Use a thick tube on the hot water and a thin tube on the cold one. That's how old boilers work. It was used, at least in Sweden, before everyone had electricity for circulation.
i personally would add more of the heating elements but honestly as a concept this is brilliant
The issue is the magnetic field is not fully enclosing the copper pipe.
You could make it work better with two discs with magnets(in holes) with a square tubing(or flattened copper tubing) in the middle. Also have a soft iron plate(can be segmented into arc) covering two magnets at a time(can also be glued). The magnet poles need to alternate in the same disc as well as the one below. The magets in top disc and bottom disc should lineup with opposite poles to complete the magnetic circuit through pipe. The two discs can be attached together to make them look like a single disc, with spacing in between. In simple terms, it will resemble a diy windmill generator without coils, but copper tubing on the edge. You also need to slide the flattened tube to position, between discs, instead of flipping it from above. Just some suggestions.
Excellent idea! I enjoy watching your thought processes. The only improvement I can think of, aside from the ones you’ve already considered, is allowing the magnets to go through completely giving you double the surface area for your magnetic induction, bending the pipe so it goes completely around the circle of magnets. Then, turn the pipe under have the pipe go back around and then back out. This way, you would use both sides of the magnet and have the pipe the maximum amount of induction heating for the amount of magnets you have. Just my two cents I hope it makes sense completely around the top and the bottom.
*@Way Out West - Workshop Stuff*
For insulation, buy "pool noodles" & cut length-wise along one side of them (or if you can just disassemble the system & "sleeve" the noodles onto the pipes?, no cutting needed).
Quite cheap to buy, decent insulation.
One thing that might help is to have the water outlet from the reservoir be at the bottom, but the inlet be near the top so that instead of mixing caused by the convection of the hot water coming back in, it flows to the top. Unless of course, that slight mixing is desired. Basically the opposite of what a hot water tank does, where the colder water comes in at the bottom and the hot water is drawn out from the top.
Tips, well, the first thing my 6 year old daughter said was that you could also boil the egg in the bucket, once the water heats up enough. 😜
My thoughts: the pipe is probably not optimal to pick up the induction, and it probably isn't the most optimal heat exchanger to get the heat from metal to water.
I understand the simplicity and charm of passive circulation, but since this will be driven by a windmill, why not also use a pump for circulation. Heat transfer is more efficient with a bigger temperature difference, so it would probably help efficiency to increase the flow rate.
Wonderful project! You want to maximize the natural convective flow in the system by maximizing the height difference between the cold leg inlet and hot leg outlet while still keeping the hot leg outlet submerged below the surface of the water outlet. You will start to see increased rate of heat transfer.
Way Out West. Something great to use for induction heating would be to surround the copper pipe and or copper wire that has the casing still on it with the water you want to heat up some how also keeping it close enough to the magnets to receive the induction. That's all the insulation you need that you already have.("The water it's self").
Quite a few good suggestions here. The ones that stand out to me are:
1. Put a longer section of pipe over the magnets. This will put more resistance on the wheel (requiring more energy to turn it) but it will extract more energy on each revolution, heating it up faster. Conversely if the windmill ends up having too little power to turn the wheel, reducing the length of this pipe will make it easier to turn at the cost of it taking longer to heat up.
2. Run the wheel vertically so the hot water can rise - when the heated section of pipe is horizontal, the hot water will rise to the top of the horizontal section of pipe but it won't flow out of the pipe into the vertical hoses as readily. Having the heated section vertical means you will get a higher flow rate through the heated pipe.
3. The pipe has to be as close to the magnets as possible. The magnetic field drops off dramatically with distance so every millimetre counts. If you can get the pipe less than one millimetre away from the magnets you'll significantly increase the energy extracted.
4. You're trying to maximise the amplitude (strength) and/or frequency (speed) of the magnetic flux. So instead of a huge wheel with many small magnets, a small wheel with a few huge magnets will yield a similar result. So if the wheel gets too large, you can stack some of the magnets together to make them stronger, and use a smaller wheel instead.
Wonderful video, thanks! I think if a fellow wanted to focus on improving the heater element, he might start with room temperature water, a set time for test, which is short enough to make delta T small enough to not be affected by ambient losses. He might also cut that water volume way down for bigger deltas over shorter tests. He could just have two stand pipes on either end, vinyl hose, flush it from the room temp bucket before every test for super fast test reloads. I'm just an old engineer trying to learn beekeeping, and if I recall, you are trying to generate eddy currents (think tiny little tornadoes) inside metal, more better than last time. Certainly there are specialists, but for us mortals, that's Art, or Voodoo (depending on pay and culture). You need a rig that allows a lot of trial and error. It's going to be an iterative approach. By the way, do you have those travel toys over there, a face with metal filings and a little magnet pen to give the fellow a mustache? If so, you might hold him up to your rig and see what your magnetic field actually looks like. Maybe it's not what you think, or where you think, or maybe it needs some iron laminations to focus it, or spinning magnet disks in each side of the heater, et cetera.
Cover the entire surface of the disk with neodymium magnets. Arrange them in alternating north and south oriented hallbach arrays. Suspend a tightly wound flat coil of copper tubing the size of the disk over the top of the disk, as close as possible to the disk. Maybe add an aluminum track on the disk and attach some bearing rollers to the bottom of the copper pipe so as to maintain optimal distance with low friction.
You will capture much more energy if you make a complete circle of your 3/4" copper piping, elevating one end slightly, to allow for convection circulation of the water, while insulating all of the copper and tubing associated with it including the collection tank. Hope this helps. Built a number of this type of heaters in my time and won the science fair when I was 12 years old with one. Instead of induction heating, though, I was using solar collection for the heat source. Thanks for posting.
I would:
1) Bring the metal much closer to the magnets, maybe stick felt to the bottom of the pipe but it should sit on the disk, friction will be minimal.
2) Another ring of magnets above the metal - but it doesn't need to be a solid disk it only needs to be held to the lower disk, come up and around the pipe. Maybe the pipe should be longer too.
Lots of love
Two spinning discs, one on each side of square cross section copper tube. Large iron ring embedded in disc touching back side of magnets. With such a large spinning disc, you might have two circles of magnets and two rings of copper pipe. Great project - Good luck with everything!
Another fantastic video that gets my imagination going! That big disk, all varnished and shiny makes me happy. Haha.
I don't have much to say that a dozen other commenters haven't already. Well... maybe for a nice smooth pipe bend, you can try a technique used to bend brass tubing for instruments.
To avoid kinks in the tubing, cap one end and fill it with water, then freeze the water into ice. While it's frozen, bend the pipe to keep its circumference even. After it melts, left with a nice curved, round tube.
Although, the radius on this pipe seems like it'd be fine using a roller bender without issue. 😅
Amazing work, as always.
Maybe a wind deflector to shield the element?
Another thought I would like to add, you may wish to insulate a coil that goes all the way around the device because the magnetic field will not be affected by the insulation.
To make it easier to bend the copper pipe, heat it up with a torch. Once the copper is annealed, it will bend very easily. Also, if you can borrow a hand conduit bender, it would be much easier than the hydraulic bender.
Best thing I can think of for improvements is to increase the surface area exposed to the highest flux fields closest to the magnets. Best of luck.