I just subscribed. Having once been an audio technical engineer in the recording studio (and seeing your MTR-10 in the background of some of your videos brings back memories of many kinds), I experienced "hi end" audio one the studio in particular with a Coastal Acoustics system at Reba McEntire's Starstruck Studios in Nashville, a place I helped put together and run for a few years. The system used modified Chevin power amps and an active crossover. I'd never heard such clarity in any system in a studio... no distortion even at 110+ dB SPL (measured). Listening to what you share, I'm taken back to so much of that time of my life. Thanks for your warm delivery and your willingness to voice your honest opinion... and to let us know that it's just that. Your level of expertise and experience is very apparent. Thanks so much for representing the 'hi end' as well as you do.
from my experience over the years with big and small mains speakers i have owned, i had the same experience as Paul, any attempt at main speaker rollover did sound worse. even with a 10" woofer on a florostander or a 3" woofer on a bookshelf speaker, same result. the sub just works best with full range speakers. i see quite a few comments online about cutting of the main speakers, i generally dont agree with that , but sometimes i wish i could fix the ported problem with a crossover above it.
I roll off my speakers so there are no phasing issues with overlapping frequencies between mains and subs. If you don't roll of, it's pretty much guaranteed you will have phasing issues, and actually lose sound in certain frequencies.
Here’s what I found. I have a pair of DEF TECH STL speakers -3db @ 26 HZ. These have powered subwoofers. Very good, tight, musical bass. However, I still felt like I could improve on filling out the bottom end. This is important because this is also my home theater system. I put my BnW sub, that I had in the system when I had BnW bookshelves as mains, back into my system. It improved the bottom end and there is no bloating like I experienced when it was teamed up with the BnW bookshelves. I’ve only had the STLs for three months and just added the sub and got it dialed in for about a week. I still believe I can get more out this system. One thing I considering is removing the BnW sub and replacing it with two DEF TECH subs. Comments?
it depends on the mains in question. if the mains are passively crossed over, it doesn't matter. at least not much because passive crossover is reactive. you're going to have peaks and dips everywhere any way, adding a sub is just adding a little variable in an already messed up equation, it's not going to be much more or less messed up. on the other hand in actively crossed over mains, when you add a sub you NEED to cross it over the mains so it works as an integral part of the system. whether rolling the sub off to the mains or rolling the mains off to the sub is totally your choice. without crossing them over, the sub will never blend in until you turn it off because there's going to be an overlap between the mains and the sub summing up to a peak. frankly, i think passive crossover should have already been obsolete by now. it's not just a bloody ancient technology but also very problematic. it creates more problem than it solves.
I once tried adding a servo controlled Velodyne subwoofer to my system and it did nothing to add any low end and just blurred what my Acoustats were doing.Magnapans sound great with a big soundstage but they make everything sound bigger than life. Acoustats give you the same big soundstage but everything in that soundstage has the correct size. Rel-Caps are very good but there are more expensive caps out there but I don't know if they are better. Some of my old Audio Research equipment use Rel-Caps.
If the speaker has trouble with the lower frequencies (with regards to distortion) it's probably poorly designed in the first place and it's best to just replace them.
Agreed,mostly. First: There is MUSIC way down there in the low bass, not just subway rumble. Organ/keyboard and drum bass notes that are not reproduced disqualify any claims of "Hi-Fi"! Second: Having separated the diaphragm of a Maggie, I Am thinking again about the wisdom of running them full range. I do with Rega Naos TL's, supplementing their weaker 25hz output with a pair of REL powered subs. Works well in plumbing the dephs of hall acoustics and restoring presence to good recordings. Thanks Paul ;-)
Brian David 38hz +/- I am also using DSPeaker 2.0 digital room correction to get bass flat to below 20 Hertz, while compensating for room modes. I found it works very well and sounds quite natural without the room boom. I'm also working on installing some bass traps and I will reeqalize once those are installed....
Carlito Melon, I see the light now, my vintage electronic crossovers go down to only 50 cycles. Those car x overs were first introduced in 1981. Subwoofers were just taking off, from what I could see. The point Paul makes I can see now, If the speakers have, an inherently higher roll off point. It's been a good day of exploring here at Paul's Place, thank you all.
yes capacitors in series color the sound by dissipating energy, they also twist the phase which is never good. i will give my solution to this at the end of this post. what impedance are magnepans? normal speakers have a pretty high impedance spike around their resonance point where a 8ohm speaker might go up to 20ohms and higher. that in effect more than doubles the impedance that the tubes should see, which causes higher distortion and lower output. for tubeamps there is the advantage of lowering the impedance in the bass range, when leaving the main speakers on, and adding a subwoofer in parallel. adding a sub in parallel but leaving the mains on will drop the impedance from 20ohms in the bass range (main speakers only) back in the normal range, lets say 4-8ohms depending on your speaker and amp setup, thus cleaning up the tube power stage. instead of using a cap in series, add only an inductor in parallel to the terminals on the main speakers, to short out the lows for the main speakers which does not color the sound and not twist phase but drops impedance down to normal range. important: you dont want zero impedance so use a resistor in series with that inductor! this is not perfect but may be better than a normal crossover with caps in series with the speaker which causes coloring and phase distortion.
Hey brian, the inductor is usually part of a crossover system in combination with a capacitor. The capacitor in series provides high resistance to low frequencies, so less bass gets through to main speakers. We dont want that here, to avoid negative impact of series capacitors. the inductor in parallel over speaker terminals has low resistance in the bass region (approaching 0ohm) much less than the speakers, so the bass frequencies get shorted in there and less gets to the speaker itself. danger is that if the inductor by itself alone paralleling the speaker is used, without a cap in series before that, the resistance in the bass region which the amp sees aproaches zero which is too low. so adding a small resistor lets say 4-8ohm is necessary. thus you get: 20ohm resistance mains speakers (bass region) paralleled by an inductor with 8ohm resistor in series euquals a weebit less than 8ohms further paralleled by 8ohm subwoofer (which is also not going to be perfect 8ohms in the low bass region, but more...) equals somehwere around 4ohms which the tube power stage is going to see. you mean expensive sounding inexpensive speakers? thats how i like to roll too haha :D
max bauer ok! What about just regular ole solid state push pull amps? I did see the video about tube amps being critical on impedance. The only tubing I do is behind my 16 foot trihull powerboat.
I think I may have been the one who killed the Magnepan 1.4's. Wendall Diller brought them to the store I worked at and we listened together and he asked what I thought. I said do you want me to just be nice or do you want me to tell you what I hear. He said to tell him what I hear so I did and boy did he get pissed. That was the end of the 1.4's. Never heard anything more about them.
Yes, don’t roll off , the one thing I would say is some speakers are engineered to roll off a few dB via a mechanical switch. Tannoys and Kefs are two examples. These are for very gentle room acoustics matching and subtle controls but can help. Otherwise agree with Paul 100%.
If you use high quality active electronics set at a low frequency (ie: 30Hz) the mains have no idea whether the program was recorded like that or not. Concert touring engineers have a rule: quality high pass filters are essential but, trying to achieve the same effect with a capacitor or even a quality 1/3 octave equalizer is a huge no no. For home use I prefer to run the mains full spectrum and control the sub.
Paul, just a clarification question... The cap on the amp, is it actually on the input or the output? I'm wondering if Arnie used capacitive loading on the woofer system. Not for high-pass function but to increase the Qm and help extend the bass cutoff without using mass loading on the diaphragms. Would increase the roll-off rate as well providing some extra protection. With 12 drivers, the increased cone excursion wouldn't be near the limits of Xmech.
Instead of a cap , use an active (12dB/octave or more crossover) , problem solved . Also , in case you have vented (bass reflex , TL) main speakers , roll-off can protect the woofers from mechanical damage . Vented speakers that are fed a signal with a frequency under their resonance frequency (typically 50 Hz) will rapidly reach mechanical Xmax excursion . This will result in a damaged woofer . With an active crossover your mains will be stressed less and sound better in the mids . Remember for a closed box , the required excursion is 4 times higher at 40 Hz vs 80 Hz for the same sound level and at 20Hz it's 16 times higher. This is why I recommend a 12dB crossover , 6dB is not enough to counter the square scaling .
Yup, perfect. Gerrit is progressive, and totally correct for all that have "regular" speakers. Cant wait for the answer in 20 years. Trust the designer? Then the only option is to own IRS speakers and everything else is impractical.
I might add that, below a certain frequency, smaller woofers seem to become unloaded. They almost seem to flutter and will poorly reproduce any possible high bass frequencies at the time. My favorite mains have a 40Hz high pass addition to the crossover. The mid bass is much tighter and defined with them. My front firing sub overlaps at 80Hz and is in phase. The mains have passive radiators so this might be an exception to the rule. This is just a hobby for me so I could be wrong.
Paul, you are not alone, in fact, you are in good company. Your comments are in line with Dr. Earl Geddes. He does not recommend to roll off the mains either.
I guess if you have the money, you can afford mains that don't run into woofer excursion issues at higher SPLs. Those who have run bookshelf-size speakers as mains may be well served by a bit of filtering if they like to listen to it loud.
I don't care for subwoofers or powered speakers at all, I go the 70's rote, using a separate amplifier and good full range stereo speakers because I'm old-school in my ways.
CoolDudeClem You go at it the 70's way? You seem to not even be from that era. So you were were young in the 80's but still go the 70's way? That is cool, clem.
i can fully understand doing it with smaller (5" main driver for example) speakers that can/will distort if you are trying to get them to do (for example lets say sub 100hz) at a moderately high volume and still expect them to do everything else. if you roll off the input and let the sub handle 100hz and below you can avoid the distortion they would otherwise have, let the speakers most suitable for the job do the jobs they are best at, you dont expect a 12" midrange driver or 5" tweeter to do their jobs cleanly, so why expect a driver sized for midrange to do low end cleanly.
Steven W If the speaker has trouble with the lower frequencies (with regards to distortion) it's probably poorly designed in the first place and it's best to just replace them.
Only reason to Hi-pass is to stick more power into your mid-range. X-over at 100 Hz or lower. If your full range speakers aren't loud enough for you. Get better speakers and amps.
Paul McGowan Ok,I was referring to a 2.1 for music and I use the pure direct function on my marantz av.I think you said something about your HT system in a previous vid.about setting your bookshelf speakers to lg.even though they are sm.Thx's.
For what it's worth, I found I got far superior sound by setting the crossover in my AV processor as low as possible, in my case 40Hz. I find I get much better sound that way.
Finally someone I trust saying don't bass manage a loudspeaker. If you look at this subject, the people that are always telling you to bass manage are subwoofer companies. So maybe some hidden motivation.
What hidden motivation would that be? It's not like you don't need a sub if you don't roll off the speaker, subwoofers still outclass speakers in general when it comes to low bass reproduction. Ergo they don't need rolled off speakers to sell subwoofers. By the same coin you'd also expect subwoofer companies to have quite a lot of experience with integrating subwoofers, especially their own models. I'm not saying anything about what you should do, I'm just focusing on your argument which sounds like it's coming from a place of confirmation bias.
@@Evil_Peter You may be right. I was reading a svs aritcle on bass management and I got the sense that if you were not bass managing your system it is inferior. I think SVS is a great, honest company. I do see your point and I am thinking it's just their opinion and not a marketing angle like you said.
On a side note, I don't know if your into pc audio hardware but I'm strictly on PC for everything. From getting my news, playing my movies, streaming and gaming. So it's my main hub. I use Emotiva's dac DC 1 xlr to airmotiv6. A few companies stake the claim of having "the" sound card for serious audiophiles like HT Omega, creative and asus just to name a few and they've come a long way but your feedback on this here being that I'm using my onboard upgrade sound chip from asus called supremefx by asus, I'm ready to upgrade to a full boat soundcard. Oh my word if the pc guru's got wind that you were coming out with a card just for us??? Huge success! Thank you sir for your time. Ps. I've learned so much from your videos and better understood the why in what I knew.
I don't agree-rolling off the main speakers (especially with a steeper rolloff like 4th order crossovers in the Rane AC22 or 23, can really open up the frequency ranges where the speakers shine the most, and allow a subwoofer to provide that last octave (or so) of response. It will also free up voice coil heat dissipation, excursion, amplifier power, phase response, and potentially reduce port doubling. But, if done wrong, it can be terrible. I don't plan on adding subwoofers to my Dynaudio Confidence C4's, Bozak Concert Grands, Bang and Olufsen Pentas but I do plan on integrating subs with my EV Sentry III's and Tannoy FrankenChurchills. It just depends on the speaker.
Why would I buy big, expensive full range speakers if I am just going to limit their capabilities? I say let your mains do their job, back them up with a couple of subs.
Michael B. Yea, you know what I live for. I have told Paul that I love him, and the book "I'm ok, your ok" comes to mind. But when he told me that "never roll off a full range" that just made me stop in my tracks...Paul is King, but I follow Scott's ideas more.
+Brian David I keep spouting off about fully active systems. I've listened to the LS50W's and the sound is amazing...far above its price point. I've read on numerous boards, UA-cam videos, etc. that folks just can't get the same performance out of the LS50's with VERY expensive separates. A testament to the value of full integration. He's got all the "stuff". Build on the sprout, the bridge for streaming, and the speakers he's got coming out this year. Throw it all together.
Michael B. Now that the sprout has a defeatable bass boost, I can be a customer. I am going to come out of the Sprout2 and set the congregation alive! I already have speakers, amps and electric crossovers. I have waited 23 years to put on a Christmas show down here at the old country church. It's a pure echo chamber and what, 20 feat tall. I will look up what your talking about. I am happy for Paul's progress, and mine with my wife.
You must love bass? Car speakers are designed to be rolled off, so NOT rolling them off is the wrong thing to do. They'll get much louder much cleaner when rolled off at 100hz for example. I am specifically referring to a component system, where the crossover has a specified crossover setting and wattage. If running coaxials off head unit power, then it really doesn't matter.
Carlito Melon that's for sure, I had the opportunity to check sound in an empty room last year. The speakers were making me emotional on 80s music even. Anywhere else than this one spot and it was no go, boring.
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](/img/n.gif)
I just subscribed. Having once been an audio technical engineer in the recording studio (and seeing your MTR-10 in the background of some of your videos brings back memories of many kinds), I experienced "hi end" audio one the studio in particular with a Coastal Acoustics system at Reba McEntire's Starstruck Studios in Nashville, a place I helped put together and run for a few years. The system used modified Chevin power amps and an active crossover. I'd never heard such clarity in any system in a studio... no distortion even at 110+ dB SPL (measured). Listening to what you share, I'm taken back to so much of that time of my life. Thanks for your warm delivery and your willingness to voice your honest opinion... and to let us know that it's just that. Your level of expertise and experience is very apparent. Thanks so much for representing the 'hi end' as well as you do.
from my experience over the years with big and small mains speakers i have owned, i had the same experience as Paul, any attempt at main speaker rollover did sound worse. even with a 10" woofer on a florostander or a 3" woofer on a bookshelf speaker, same result.
the sub just works best with full range speakers.
i see quite a few comments online about cutting of the main speakers, i generally dont agree with that , but sometimes i wish i could fix the ported problem with a crossover above it.
Through much experimenting I agree with Paul, don’t roll, blend is the way to go!
I roll off my speakers so there are no phasing issues with overlapping frequencies between mains and subs. If you don't roll of, it's pretty much guaranteed you will have phasing issues, and actually lose sound in certain frequencies.
I agree, I like the sound of the subs filling in and not taking over.
How about selectively rolling off the 'highs' of the subwoofer to accommodate any given any type of main loudspeaker?
There seems to be no need to do so, as the mains and subwoofer move in opposite directions as far as sound range is concerned.
Here’s what I found. I have a pair of DEF TECH STL speakers -3db @ 26 HZ. These have powered subwoofers. Very good, tight, musical bass. However, I still felt like I could improve on filling out the bottom end. This is important because this is also my home theater system. I put my BnW sub, that I had in the system when I had BnW bookshelves as mains, back into my system. It improved the bottom end and there is no bloating like I experienced when it was teamed up with the BnW bookshelves.
I’ve only had the STLs for three months and just added the sub and got it dialed in for about a week. I still believe I can get more out this system. One thing I considering is removing the BnW sub and replacing it with two DEF TECH subs.
Comments?
it depends on the mains in question. if the mains are passively crossed over, it doesn't matter. at least not much because passive crossover is reactive. you're going to have peaks and dips everywhere any way, adding a sub is just adding a little variable in an already messed up equation, it's not going to be much more or less messed up. on the other hand in actively crossed over mains, when you add a sub you NEED to cross it over the mains so it works as an integral part of the system. whether rolling the sub off to the mains or rolling the mains off to the sub is totally your choice. without crossing them over, the sub will never blend in until you turn it off because there's going to be an overlap between the mains and the sub summing up to a peak. frankly, i think passive crossover should have already been obsolete by now. it's not just a bloody ancient technology but also very problematic. it creates more problem than it solves.
I once tried adding a servo controlled Velodyne subwoofer to my system and it did nothing to add any low end and just blurred what my Acoustats were doing.Magnapans sound great with a big soundstage but they make everything sound bigger than life. Acoustats give you the same big soundstage but everything in that soundstage has the correct size. Rel-Caps are very good but there are more expensive caps out there but I don't know if they are better. Some of my old Audio Research equipment use Rel-Caps.
If the speaker has trouble with the lower frequencies (with regards to distortion) it's probably poorly designed in the first place and it's best to just replace them.
Dayton Audio B652 AIR speakers... I have a pair in my garage! Very cool.
Agreed,mostly.
First: There is MUSIC way down there in the low bass, not just subway rumble. Organ/keyboard and drum bass notes that are not reproduced disqualify any claims of "Hi-Fi"!
Second: Having separated the diaphragm of a Maggie, I Am thinking again about the wisdom of running them full range. I do with Rega Naos TL's, supplementing their weaker 25hz output with a pair of REL powered subs. Works well in plumbing the dephs of hall acoustics and restoring presence to good recordings.
Thanks Paul ;-)
Carlito Melon may I ask what freq. The subs are rolled off at?
Brian David
38hz +/-
I am also using DSPeaker 2.0 digital room correction to get bass flat to below 20 Hertz, while compensating for room modes. I found it works very well and sounds quite natural without the room boom. I'm also working on installing some bass traps and I will reeqalize once those are installed....
Carlito Melon, I see the light now, my vintage electronic crossovers go down to only 50 cycles. Those car x overs were first introduced in 1981. Subwoofers were just taking off, from what I could see. The point Paul makes I can see now, If the speakers have, an inherently higher roll off point.
It's been a good day of exploring here at Paul's Place, thank you all.
yes capacitors in series color the sound by dissipating energy, they also twist the phase which is never good. i will give my solution to this at the end of this post.
what impedance are magnepans?
normal speakers have a pretty high impedance spike around their resonance point where a 8ohm speaker might go up to 20ohms and higher.
that in effect more than doubles the impedance that the tubes should see, which causes higher distortion and lower output. for tubeamps there is the advantage of lowering the impedance in the bass range, when leaving the main speakers on, and adding a subwoofer in parallel.
adding a sub in parallel but leaving the mains on will drop the impedance from 20ohms in the bass range (main speakers only) back in the normal range, lets say 4-8ohms depending on your speaker and amp setup, thus cleaning up the tube power stage.
instead of using a cap in series, add only an inductor in parallel to the terminals on the main speakers, to short out the lows for the main speakers which does not color the sound and not twist phase but drops impedance down to normal range.
important: you dont want zero impedance so use a resistor in series with that inductor!
this is not perfect but may be better than a normal crossover with caps in series with the speaker which causes coloring and phase distortion.
That resister/inductor idea is wild! were did you get that? I am trying to set friends up with inexpensive sound and want to give that a try!
Hey brian, the inductor is usually part of a crossover system in combination with a capacitor. The capacitor in series provides high resistance to low frequencies, so less bass gets through to main speakers. We dont want that here, to avoid negative impact of series capacitors.
the inductor in parallel over speaker terminals has low resistance in the bass region (approaching 0ohm) much less than the speakers, so the bass frequencies get shorted in there and less gets to the speaker itself. danger is that if the inductor by itself alone paralleling the speaker is used, without a cap in series before that, the resistance in the bass region which the amp sees aproaches zero which is too low.
so adding a small resistor lets say 4-8ohm is necessary.
thus you get: 20ohm resistance mains speakers (bass region)
paralleled by an inductor with 8ohm resistor in series
euquals a weebit less than 8ohms
further paralleled by 8ohm subwoofer (which is also not going to be perfect 8ohms in the low bass region, but more...)
equals somehwere around 4ohms which the tube power stage is going to see.
you mean expensive sounding inexpensive speakers? thats how i like to roll too haha :D
the idea is just a basic impedance correction network
max bauer ok! What about just regular ole solid state push pull amps? I did see the video about tube amps being critical on impedance. The only tubing I do is behind my 16 foot trihull powerboat.
max bauer your resister though, you are talking a max amp size of about 25 wpc. That's got to be a ceramic resister in with that coil.
I think I may have been the one who killed the Magnepan 1.4's. Wendall Diller brought them to the store I worked at and we listened together and he asked what I thought. I said do you want me to just be nice or do you want me to tell you what I hear. He said to tell him what I hear so I did and boy did he get pissed. That was the end of the 1.4's. Never heard anything more about them.
Paul you mentioned added grunge with a passive low frequency roll off, what about active low frequency roll off ?
Yes, don’t roll off , the one thing I would say is some speakers are engineered to roll off a few dB via a mechanical switch. Tannoys and Kefs are two examples. These are for very gentle room acoustics matching and subtle controls but can help. Otherwise agree with Paul 100%.
If you use high quality active electronics set at a low frequency (ie: 30Hz) the mains have no idea whether the program was recorded like that or not.
Concert touring engineers have a rule: quality high pass filters are essential but, trying to achieve the same effect with a capacitor or even a quality 1/3 octave equalizer is a huge no no.
For home use I prefer to run the mains full spectrum and control the sub.
Paul, just a clarification question... The cap on the amp, is it actually on the input or the output? I'm wondering if Arnie used capacitive loading on the woofer system. Not for high-pass function but to increase the Qm and help extend the bass cutoff without using mass loading on the diaphragms. Would increase the roll-off rate as well providing some extra protection. With 12 drivers, the increased cone excursion wouldn't be near the limits of Xmech.
Paul McGowan Thanks for clarifying and the speedy response. Have a wonderful day!
Instead of a cap , use an active (12dB/octave or more crossover) , problem solved . Also , in case you have vented (bass reflex , TL) main speakers , roll-off can protect the woofers from mechanical damage . Vented speakers that are fed a signal with a frequency under their resonance frequency (typically 50 Hz) will rapidly reach mechanical Xmax excursion . This will result in a damaged woofer . With an active crossover your mains will be stressed less and sound better in the mids . Remember for a closed box , the required excursion is 4 times higher at 40 Hz vs 80 Hz for the same sound level and at 20Hz it's 16 times higher. This is why I recommend a 12dB crossover , 6dB is not enough to counter the square scaling .
you really think paul did not think of that?
Yup, perfect. Gerrit is progressive, and totally correct for all that have "regular" speakers.
Cant wait for the answer in 20 years. Trust the designer? Then the only option is to own IRS speakers and everything else is impractical.
I might add that, below a certain frequency, smaller woofers seem to become unloaded. They almost seem to flutter and will poorly reproduce any possible high bass frequencies at the time. My favorite mains have a 40Hz high pass addition to the crossover. The mid bass is much tighter and defined with them. My front firing sub overlaps at 80Hz and is in phase. The mains have passive radiators so this might be an exception to the rule. This is just a hobby for me so I could be wrong.
Paul, you are not alone, in fact, you are in good company. Your comments are in line with Dr. Earl Geddes. He does not recommend to roll off the mains either.
I guess if you have the money, you can afford mains that don't run into woofer excursion issues at higher SPLs. Those who have run bookshelf-size speakers as mains may be well served by a bit of filtering if they like to listen to it loud.
I don't care for subwoofers or powered speakers at all, I go the 70's rote, using a separate amplifier and good full range stereo speakers because I'm old-school in my ways.
CoolDudeClem You go at it the 70's way? You seem to not even be from that era. So you were were young in the 80's but still go the 70's way? That is cool, clem.
I agree with Paul on this topic!
Never understood rolling off the main speakers. I hate it too, I always run full range with the sub blended.
Same here.
i can fully understand doing it with smaller (5" main driver for example) speakers that can/will distort if you are trying to get them to do (for example lets say sub 100hz) at a moderately high volume and still expect them to do everything else. if you roll off the input and let the sub handle 100hz and below you can avoid the distortion they would otherwise have, let the speakers most suitable for the job do the jobs they are best at, you dont expect a 12" midrange driver or 5" tweeter to do their jobs cleanly, so why expect a driver sized for midrange to do low end cleanly.
Steven W If the speaker has trouble with the lower frequencies (with regards to distortion) it's probably poorly designed in the first place and it's best to just replace them.
Can I come visit you and show you pictures of my set up. So I can get your input on my system? I live in Denver.
Only reason to Hi-pass is to stick more power into your mid-range. X-over at 100 Hz or lower. If your full range speakers aren't loud enough for you. Get better speakers and amps.
ROY FERNTORP I find that narrow thinking.
Does this apply to AV rec.also?? I believe my av rec. is set at 80hz/sm. and my bookshelf speakers go to low of 55hz.
Paul McGowan Ok,I was referring to a 2.1 for music and I use the pure direct function on my marantz av.I think you said something about your HT system in a previous vid.about setting your bookshelf speakers to lg.even though they are sm.Thx's.
For what it's worth, I found I got far superior sound by setting the crossover in my AV processor as low as possible, in my case 40Hz. I find I get much better sound that way.
Good advice, thanks.
Finally someone I trust saying don't bass manage a loudspeaker. If you look at this subject, the people that are always telling you to bass manage are subwoofer companies. So maybe some hidden motivation.
What hidden motivation would that be? It's not like you don't need a sub if you don't roll off the speaker, subwoofers still outclass speakers in general when it comes to low bass reproduction. Ergo they don't need rolled off speakers to sell subwoofers. By the same coin you'd also expect subwoofer companies to have quite a lot of experience with integrating subwoofers, especially their own models. I'm not saying anything about what you should do, I'm just focusing on your argument which sounds like it's coming from a place of confirmation bias.
@@Evil_Peter You may be right. I was reading a svs aritcle on bass management and I got the sense that if you were not bass managing your system it is inferior. I think SVS is a great, honest company. I do see your point and I am thinking it's just their opinion and not a marketing angle like you said.
Which emotiva's are those Paul?
Paul McGowan on the shelf right there, looks like Emotiva speakers :)
On a side note, I don't know if your into pc audio hardware but I'm strictly on PC for everything. From getting my news, playing my movies, streaming and gaming. So it's my main hub. I use Emotiva's dac DC 1 xlr to airmotiv6.
A few companies stake the claim of having "the" sound card for serious audiophiles like
HT Omega, creative and asus just to name a few and they've come a long way but your feedback on this here being that I'm using my onboard upgrade sound chip from asus called supremefx by asus, I'm ready to upgrade to a full boat soundcard. Oh my word if the pc guru's got wind that you were coming out with a card just for us??? Huge success! Thank you sir for your time.
Ps. I've learned so much from your videos and better understood the why in what I knew.
If you have a weak amplifier, or a two-way speaker I guess that rolling off from 100Hz will make the mid range come more to life.
I don't agree-rolling off the main speakers (especially with a steeper rolloff like 4th order crossovers in the Rane AC22 or 23, can really open up the frequency ranges where the speakers shine the most, and allow a subwoofer to provide that last octave (or so) of response. It will also free up voice coil heat dissipation, excursion, amplifier power, phase response, and potentially reduce port doubling. But, if done wrong, it can be terrible. I don't plan on adding subwoofers to my Dynaudio Confidence C4's, Bozak Concert Grands, Bang and Olufsen Pentas but I do plan on integrating subs with my EV Sentry III's and Tannoy FrankenChurchills. It just depends on the speaker.
Can not compute, can not compute, I'm melting down....
Over the years, Paul's been increasingly rolling off his extremes. HAH.
Why would I buy big, expensive full range speakers if I am just going to limit their capabilities? I say let your mains do their job, back them up with a couple of subs.
b652 AIRs!!!!
Is your wife using a sub with her new KEF LS50's?
Females hearing is more sensitive than man generally speaking. Mark my words, Paul. She will NEVER get a sub.
Hmmm...Maybe another example of a situation calling for a fully active system? The LS50W's pulled it off -- Imagine what PS could do?
Michael B. Yea, you know what I live for. I have told Paul that I love him, and the book "I'm ok, your ok" comes to mind. But when he told me that "never roll off a full range" that just made me stop in my tracks...Paul is King, but I follow Scott's ideas more.
+Brian David I keep spouting off about fully active systems. I've listened to the LS50W's and the sound is amazing...far above its price point. I've read on numerous boards, UA-cam videos, etc. that folks just can't get the same performance out of the LS50's with VERY expensive separates. A testament to the value of full integration. He's got all the "stuff". Build on the sprout, the bridge for streaming, and the speakers he's got coming out this year. Throw it all together.
Michael B. Now that the sprout has a defeatable bass boost, I can be a customer. I am going to come out of the Sprout2 and set the congregation alive! I already have speakers, amps and electric crossovers. I have waited 23 years to put on a Christmas show down here at the old country church. It's a pure echo chamber and what, 20 feat tall. I will look up what your talking about. I am happy for Paul's progress, and mine with my wife.
Beam me up Scotty, were is Scotty? What would he say?
Hell, Get 2 subs!😸
I don't roll off, not even in the car system.
You must love bass? Car speakers are designed to be rolled off, so NOT rolling them off is the wrong thing to do. They'll get much louder much cleaner when rolled off at 100hz for example. I am specifically referring to a component system, where the crossover has a specified crossover setting and wattage. If running coaxials off head unit power, then it really doesn't matter.
It seems to me that a sub with high end speakers is like painting flames on a Pinto.
David Kereluk your referring to the gas tank problem, right?
No. Properly positioned main speakers are often in the wrong place to optimise bass response in room.
Carlito Melon that's for sure, I had the opportunity to check sound in an empty room last year. The speakers were making me emotional on 80s music even. Anywhere else than this one spot and it was no go, boring.