Capacitor Leakage Tester Build - Antique Wireless Museum
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- I purchased this circuit board from Antique Wireless Museum located in Bloomfield, New York ( www.antiquewireless.org ) and thought it would make a fun project for a video while helping to support the museum. This museum is definitely on my list of places to visit. In the video, we will also learn about capacitor leakage and the importance of electrolytic capacitor forming.
0:15 Intro
2:33 Looking at the PC Board, BOM and components for the build
12:08 Calculating how the transformer can produce 600 VDC (well, not quite, but close) ;)
16:50 Building the PC Board - solder & chat ☺
33:19 Design & Build of the leakage meter scaling circuit
43:22 Looking at the assembled tester and verifying accuracy
53:12 Testing some capacitors and demonstrating how to form an electrolytic capacitor
1:13:12 final look at the re-formed NOS electrolytic capacitor and closing comments
Can you give a link for the bord and components.
Very helpful video, thank you. I'm just ordering parts to build out my board and would like to use a case like yours. Where did you find it? Most of the similar boxes I see on Amazon seem to be front open only.
I have to say that this is one of the most instructive videos I've seen regarding the actual operation of an electrolytic capacitor, based on it's age and type, that I have ever seen, and your video even suggests that other circuit components may have similar issues due to their individual properties. What an eye-opening demonstration!
Nice modification Tony, of antique wireless museums leakage tester.
The museum is such a great resource I'm sure they can use more support from us especially when one score a schematic on that oddball troublesome receiver on the bench.
I visited the Antique Wireless Museum just south of Rochester NY last month and was mightily impressed by both the quality and quantity of old tech on display. The folks that work or volunteer there are remarkably knowledgeable and enthusiastic. If you’re interested in the history of this technology, you will need a few hours to see everything. They even have a selection of ‘as is’ old radios and electronic test equipment for sale at less than eBay prices if you want to jump into the hobby. (I got a 1950’s HP 400H VTVM for $25 - it was the largest item I could still squeeze into a suitcase for my flight home) I can’t wait to go back
IPC-610 (electronic assembly) class 3 (hospital level), requires that all non conformal coated copper be covered by solder and if the leads are clipped after soldering, the lead must be re-soldered to prevent the fractured solder from spreading through the solder joint. The rabbit hole gets much deeper so this is easy enough for most of your viewers. BTW I like your videos better than MrCarlson’sLab.
Very nice video. 👍
However, I have never needed a tester because to test how leaky a cap is, you just need a high voltage power supply and a DMM or a tube voltmeter and for example a 100k resistor.
If you are testing a small cap ( for example a coupling cap 5-100 nF) all you need is a a high voltage power supply and a DMM (volts range) connected in series with the cap. And if the cap leaks, the DMM or tube volt meter (with input impedance around 10Mohm) will show a value something else than zero after the cap is fully charged. In case of higher capacitance elyts, you can just connect the cap to the high voltage supply through a series resistor (for example 100k) and measure the voltage over the resistor after the cap has been charged, and the leak current can be easily calculated.
Thanks for this Tony! Just ordered a few of their pcbs. I already made a couple of their am transmitters, those were easy to build and work well. Your analog leakage meter really tells the story well vice the intended digital DMM.
Watching while building another tube amp :)
Excellent material here, I like your channel as much as I like Mr Carlson's Lab. Joy for ever!
I had a pair of prescription glasses made for the bench, just ask your Optometrist and tell 'em you work on miniature electronics and such.
They are great, my regular reading glasses don't work well on the bench but these ones are perfect
you are absolutely correct. I have soldered in new caps on the tube amps I build and repair and on a few occasions the caps acted like they were faulty. I then but on my variac and dim bulb current limiter and after "reforming they worked perfectly. Now whenever I install new caps or use something I haven't turned on in a while I go through the reforming procedure.
Great video ! It's good to take a break from troubleshooting and build a kit like we used to from Heathkit , Dynaco etc. (of course you may be troubleshooting your own work!) I keep a small collection of inexpensive Ali Express kits around to hone soldering skills and SMT practice when other projects are on hold. Your video is a great alternative instead of buying a vintage leakage tester for overhaul. I don't have a leakage tester yet, will consider this for purchase soon. Thanks for your effort and time.
As far as glasses, you might want to look into "half rimless" styles, and also getting lenses that are over 34mm in height. A lens with a larger vertical profile makes it possible for a larger "transition" area of the grinds between far and near/magnifying functions, giving your eyes a larger area to view through for distance and close up vision. I have been wearing progressive's for over 15 years now, and have found that I easily adjust to the glasses I have, and rarely need more than them, outside of safety issues, for most work ( I have an astigmatism and farsighted correction) I can easily adjust to seeing things further away, and doing things such as electronics work, computer screen viewing, and tying lures and leaders onto fishing line for my main hobby🐟
Your right about lens height, my first encounter with bifocals was the restrictive area for distance viewing and the blurring of the lower part of the lens when looking down at distance. Everyone's eyes are different and most optometrist just fill the prescription and won't offer all the options of the bi focal lenses such as transitions can be more than one level of magnification ($$$). I don't wear glasses at the bench when doing work if meters etc are within a certain distance, I'm good. Having a fixed level of magnification 1.0,1.5 etc on the + of the prescription for bifocals doesn't agree with me (or reading glasses). I'd try a bifocal prescription with a +0 for the near magnification 👁👁🥸. If I need magnification for inspection the cellphone camera and zoom is excellent. 🤓📱
@@petermetro4686 I have an "add" magnification on my prescription of 2.5, which, makes things seem slightly larger if up close, but also gives me very clear vision on them without any eye strain. The half-rimless frames let me choose lenses that almost touch my cheeks, and yes, some "head tilting" has to be used at times to look through the needed section of the lenses, but I have become very accustom to them.
@@poormanselectronicsbench2021 (Now I get you tube ads for safety glasses!) I have less eye strain without magnification. The head tilting is also an issue I didn't adapt to, stubborn. Also on occasion if needed a small screen microscope is used for a steady picture of components etc. more mag than the cell phone. a poor mans microscope great for SMD ~40.00 USD. Wonder if anyone has tried the Adlens adjustable glasses. Nice concept but very limited field of view with them. Whether we like it or not vision becomes an issue sooner or later and the remedies are to each individual's choice. One other rant, I used to get glass lenses, IMHO plastic lenses don't last, are garbage and overpriced if you want premium quality, never equal to glass.
The other good thing about that basic Op Amp circuit you added is that the input impedance of those Op Amp ICs is usually very high, especially for the TLOXX series of Op Amp ICs because they use FETs in the + and - inputs.
I was planning to look for an old Sprague TO- 5 which we use at work until I saw your video. With its smaller size and I get to build it myself, this will be a fine choice for personal use.
Extremely interesting thing to build. I am in no way knowledgable in electronics, but I will recap my amp, cd-player and reel to reel recorder. So, before inserting new caps, it could be good to use this little rig to form or reform them, so no potential damage can occur.
Thanks for sharing. AND the deoxit video!
Kind regards.
This intrigued me, as i am repairing an EICO 950A with a bad transformer.
this looks like it will supply enough voltage and also have a small enough footprint to fit in the case. Its worth a try!
Good morning Tony, I’m revisiting this video this morning and the museum location rang a bell. I’m 1.5 hrs away and here in Western NY that’s basically next door. So that’s on my bucket list to via
Thank you for this very useful and informative video. Ordered my kit and look forward to building it.
That was fun! 👍
Fascinating dive into cap's...cheers.
this was great edutainment!
Much Appreciated
10 - 4. Wonderful job you do man, very thorough. I own a M400t, PM 1.5 and a M 4.0. I'm a Carver fan, off topic I know. I've learned a lot from you, very good. Have fun. H.
FYI, you can enter the Mouser numbers into Digikey directly, and the right part comes up.
I have a restored Eico 950B and when you mentioned using the eye for reforming I thought why not also put a dvm in series with the capacitor to get a close estimate of current. Just a thought.
I contacted them, but shipping costs are a little too high for just a PCB board and a few sheets of paper. I know you fund this organization, but I have cheaper options on this side of the world to build this beautiful piece of equipment. Although, I have an LCR meter for this job. I like development projects. Good luck with it. Great video again. Thanks.
38:55 The LM308 (and many other non Rail-to-Rail opAmps) will require a negative rail (-1.6V from an AA cell should be good enough in a pinch) in order to properly detect and output voltages below 1.5V (referenced to the negative supply rail of the OpAmp)
Oh this is a great idea,,, thanks for doing this. I'll have to get one. Like you I need another one like I need another one like a hole in the head, but we need to support them in our little way.
A bit of trivia, originally Op Amps were designed for use in analog computers as a way to perform mathematical operations/functions analogly.
Great vid! Mine will be done tomorrow. I had to buy 50 of the voltage regulators to get the two I needed. I also bought 20 tip50’s to get the two I needed. The 741 had to come from uk via Newark they arrived in 2 days to Fl. All parts I bought were non G code so new old stock. I will sell per PayPal the hard to get 2 parts above you need. Min 5 regulars min 2 tip50’s. ($20+frt) John
I would like to purchase the Voltage regulator (LR8). Please let me know how to contact you.
I have several differnt physical sizes of that style of meter in my "2B5 Amazon Box" meter box. I was going to use a couple pf matched Simpson 4 sq in meters but the Chinese dpm looks like it might be a better bet. I would get the kit but my use is for testing and forming flash/strobe caps. I need 900V max for the Novatron style packs. Or Novabombs as Zack Arias calls them. Thanks for making your channel.
If you ever put any equipment up for sale please be sure to show us where it’s listed. I am sure some of us would bid if it’s on eBay or you live near by to pick up.
Thanks, man... Have one ordered
For those wanting to build the extra Op Amp circuit, I'd recommend using a 20k and a 50k 10-turn Trimpot for accurate adjustments.
I wonder how it compares with the capacitor leakage tester designed by a person from Vancouver, Canada, who has a UA-cam channel like yours.
Mr Carlson's Lab
I have that tester and also high voltage ones. They both have their uses. The Carlson tester works at around the 27v range, is very safe and is very good at detecting leakage in paper, poly and mica caps. It does test electrolytic caps but is at a disadvantage due to the larger capacities taking longer to charge, as well as being unable to form caps of higher voltages. The Heathkit and Sencore high voltage testers are better at the high voltage electrolytic caps and can easily form their oxide layers or potentially kill you.
@@KeriRautenkranz Yep, I was referring to Mr Carlson's cap tester. I agree with your statement. Each type of Cap tester has it's merits and disadvantages. Three things to check, 1 cap value, 2 Leakage and 3 ESR. Carlson's leakage tester is very sensitive. Some caps may not show leakage at low voltages, but his tester would have a better chance at detecting leakage without putting full voltage to cap. Depends on the application, what cap parameter test is more important/effective.
Mr. Carlson wanted to make available a cap tester that would not kill you if you weren't paying attention.
Thx Tony !!! I build this fine Thing
Thanks Tony - this completes reviews of capacitors & testing after watching TRX videos. Especially TRX Lab video #91. I’ll put link under this message as I’m unsure if links are allowed as someone asked in comments 👍
ua-cam.com/video/2HUxuRcPR4M/v-deo.html
A chap commented on the video above which also had great info pages / links / pdfs to antique tester - great info on pdfs to enjoy - I’ll put link below this message
Very nice in all respects.
I will not build without a schematic. I have been down this road before. Having a board ready to go is great. But no circuit diagram then no investment. If a problem developes, with no schematic you can become very frustrated.
Get with the museum and tell them you want one , they may give you one ...
I would order the board and build one but I will not build anything without a schematic.
I found when reforming big caps starting low around 5 v and slowly working up . also discharing the cap with a 5 watt 150 ohm or higher regulatory helps in the process. your trying to heal the
fractures and hole in the oxide layer. I've found it can take hours on big caps .
Using two bridge rather than a center tap keep DC of the transformer. A very helpful thing with transformers . Toroid are effect a good bit by DC on transformers in my experience.
With this design of op amp meter drive it's possible to overdrive the meter and the op amp. What about adding a limit to this? An example of what could go wrong is a reforming cap failing when you are not sat watching over it or the sudden short failure of a film cap under the same circumstances could stress the op amp and meter.
nice build
Tony, a bit off topic here, but I am wondering if you have a source for schematics for Polk Audio products, other than Polk Audio themselves. I have a PSW 300 powered subwoofer that has an intermittent, very loud hum, just rarely, but when it comes, she rocks the house! Always happens when it is in standby mode. Anyway, Polk is telling me they don't have the schematic for it because it is a legacy product, about mid 90's vintage. I find that rather strange, since they are the ones who designed and built it. I've tried google search. Nada.
Thanks for all you do. I have learned a tremendous amount from your videos. Always give you a thumbs up. Your work is appreciated!
Very Cool !
Boy, wouldn't I love to get a nice Marantz reciever that you've gone through. Got one? 🙂
Forming and reforming are the same. The only difference from you explenation seems to be if the cap has been used previously. Something that is irrelevant to the process, but relevant to the likely outcome.
I'm guessing this is an (unintentional) plug for the Altair Computer! :)
That box does look like just the thing for an Altair replica or emulator
Man... gotta get that mA meter labelled correctly, especially given the shock voltage potential. Might have been the reason you spoke, many times, of mV when referring to leakage currents?
$68 for parts at Mousser if anyone cares
Thanks Professor! Enjoyed watching.
Really nice kit, and good cause, I'd love to purchase one, however not providing a schematic is a non-starter for me. The value that purchasing from AWM provides is in the PC board, I'm not going to do a point-to-point just to avoid the cost of the pc board. And anyone that is thinking of making their own boards to undercut or undersell AWM (can you say "China"?) will have no problem reverse engineering the circuit, as others have pointed out already. There is no logic to not providing the schematic, AWM has completely miscalculated, and will lose business and gain nothing by this policy. Hopefully they will re-consider.
PS- Nice faceplate layout. Looks like commercial unit.
PSS- I kept watching your hand coming into the frame, getting close to the cap leads under test with 450V. Made me nervous. BTW- Got my nickname from getting zapped working on medical imaging equipment!
Both sides of the PCB have been in frame. A reverse engineer would be trivial. Not that I would be interested in doing so.
could you do a feature test and usage of different measurement parameters on the DER 5000 LCR meter?
TC is a mallory part number. I used to buy those same series of caps.
As far as I understand it ESR, leakage and such are purely resistive properties. And thus you can measure them perfectly fine using low voltage given a sufficiently sensitive amp meter that can show the small currents. What the high Voltage meter is really showing is electrolyte/material breakdown. And that is not a purely resistive property and needs the high Voltage to show. Tsp recently explained this when he got a modern cap tester that does high Voltage.
Which TSP episode was that. What was video title please?
Build the Carlson Tester if you want a good leakage tester i love mine and it finds sus capacitors instantly
That is comparing apples to oranges. The device in this video applies proper voltage at a limited current to a capacitor, causing it to reform or verifying that it is properly formed. Low voltage/high impedance testers can't do this. I demonstrated this in the video and explained why this is important. Low voltage testers are, however, useful for testing leakage, especially with old paper and wax capacitors. Some of the low voltage testers can even check ESR, Dissipation factor/loss tangent, Q and other parameters that may be important in certain applications and can even do so using different test frequencies. It is good to have the different testers to suit different needs. Thanks for the comment.
looks like someone has a mancrush on tony😂
Thanks for the video. You mentioned that there should be no problem in wiring up for countries that use 230V supply, is that correct?
Okay, Tony, but if you operate the op-amp on a single supply rail by connecting it’s (-) rail input to ground, won’t that shift the output up to 1/2 the (positive) supply rail (in this case, 4.5VDC)? It seems that would peg your D’Arsonval meter movement.
Sir,you are correct! You know op amp Operation. He makes statements without thinking it out!
Tony clarified later in the comments that it does require a dual-rail PS.
hello, great video, I would like to setup my CLT like yours with the meters, do you have a schematic and part list for your add in to the box? thanks
If a capacitor is properly reformed and you charge it to his maximum working voltage and then disconnect the capacitor,
and leave it untouched for lets says 30 a 60 minutes , and you measure the voltage that is left in the capacitor, can this value also be a indication if
the capacitor is good or not ? Because i guess, that a faulty capacitor will discharge itself much quicker then a healty one?
Thanks Tony, thoroughly enjoyed your "twist". I'm not certain, but I couldn't see the mains fuse size anywhere listed. Please could you elaborate on this? Cheers
Nice piece of equipment ! BTW what is the size of the case for yr capacitor leakage tester ?
How did you choose the right Varistor? Is it 120*20%? They are very new to me...
Very informative video and a handy device. I'm going to order the materials. IT seems to me this might also provide an insulation breakdown tester. Anybody think that's a good (or bad) assumption?
Date codes are normally 4 digit. First two are years. Latter two are weeks of the year.
I'm surprised that the hospitals don't have a plan as to how a treatment room is layed out.
Got mine working well now! Had to use a dual power supply (+ & -) grounding pin 4 and just using a + input to terminal 7 would not work with the meter. Not saying it will not work for you but it did not on the 071 chip for me.
John
Was wondering about that. Couldn't get mine to work so used my DMM. Besides the V+ and V- pins on the IC, where do their corresponding V+ and V- outputs from the dual PS go?
Found something even better. Single Power Supply also connected to a ICL7660 Voltage Inverter module from AliExpress supplying the negative voltage needed.
Tony I'm building the tester with your module and need some clarification and guidance on how to hook up the test discharge switch and the meters with your module Woody
The modern caps are significantly better electrically than the old types... even when the old types weren't old. Yet audiophile types still want the OG ones for some reason.
Some scale marks around the test voltage pot would be helpful not to overtake cap's spec and then back down
What current limits the “capacitor under test” output if they were shorted ? Is there any current limit or protection there that you can see in the design ?
Current is limited to about 12mA max.
Never could get the leakage meter to work. In 5MA setting it halves the output at pin 6, and in 50uA and 500uA it is equal to the input at pin 3. Used a dual rail PS with +9v at pin 7 and -9v at pin 4, measured to ground.
Xraytonyb do you have ham Transceiver?
Isn't if the voltage goes up the current goes down? Correct me if I am wrong. It's not leakage. It's the reaction of the charging. The current will go down when the voltage goes up. I found the best way is to use CRO If Cap is used for signal coupling just check the signal and if for filtering look for ripple. It's a hard subject.
Let me correct you. When a "perfect" capacitor reaches full charge (charge on capacitor is same as the voltage applied across it), the current will drop to zero. However, all capacitors will exhibit some form of leakage (as there is no perfect capacitor), even when fully charged. This leakage is caused by the physical properties of the capacitor. Electrolytic caps will show this as a result of the chemicals used in the electrolyte and dielectric. This leakage acts as a resistor, passing current from one terminal of the capacitor to the other. Applying a current limited voltage source across the electrolytic capacitor will re-activate the chemicals in the electrolytic capacitor which will sometimes greatly reduce the leakage effect. This is called "re-forming" the capacitor. This is what is being demonstrated in the video. Even though other types of caps can exhibit leakage, only electrolytic caps can be re-formed. Leaky paper caps, for instance, just need to be replaced and discarded.
Can you provide a parts list for your meter circuit? I am building the Cap leakage tester and would like to incorporate the analog meter and digital voltmeter, Thx
Woody
Could you please confirm the dimensions of the project box, found a place to buy the same model but was wondering the exact size you bought. Thanks
Roughly 240mm wide, 105mm High, 180mm deep
@@xraytonyb awesome, thank you!
hi Tony.
Thanks for story telling.
Thing is getting to know about your dayly work and life does impressing me much more than building the tester.
The stupid guys at the museum do not understand NOR accept the poeple want and sometimes need both, the premade pcb AND the documentations.
Only tboth united, provide the value I'm after, probabply many DIYer are after too.
I do not want to buy the cat in the bag.
They want to save their egoistical interest making money at the cost of not providing the owner the full documentation.
THE ONLY REASON why patents ond such do exist is EXCLUDING the buyer from taking ownership.
DO NOT BUY crippled products.
BTW: On demand they may or not send you the buyer of a pcb the schematics that belongs to it in first place.
Finger crossing.
Hello. Why the 10k resistor on the opamp feedback, isn't unity gain just a wire?
I am a little confused as well I thought that the Feed back circuit that was used in his drawing was gain=RF/R1+1 For a non inverting and for unity it was necessary to use and inverting -(gain)=RF/R1 where R1 and Rf is a voltage divider circuit. and the + input is tied to ground??Going to have dig out my old text books.
When back to old text book(TI publication from 1963 on op amp applications) The correct equation for not inverting where Ei is the input voltage and Eo is the output voltage Ro is in series with r1 to ground and r1 is tied to the inverting input and the output. Eo=(Ro+R1/R1)Ei. The older you get the more you forget. I know I have forgot more that I know.
Here's the 'digital era' equivalent:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights
It seems that Both Mouser and DigiKey are out of some of these parts with long lead times. Such is life in the 21st century.
I found that out as well when I went to order the parts. After a little bit of searching, I was able to find suitable substitutes. Sometimes, you can get the same component specs from another manufacturer. For instance, choose a Panasonic capacitor of the same spec instead of a Nichicon.
@@xraytonyb just what I did. Just wanted to inform others and see what their experience has been.
What calculator is that?
securely mount components before soldering by grabbing lead with needle noise close but not against the pcb. Hold the lead perpendicular to the pcb and pull the lead sideways to secure the component then cut off excess lead before soldering and cover the cut end. beter than finger nail use ha ha .
I've been looking for a Spectrum Analyzer for a decent price if you run across one in your stash?
What calculator is that? With the drawing area.. It looks super practical.
There are several models available on Amazon ranging in price from $16 to $21 US. Just search "science calculator with writing tablet" and you'll find them. :)
Where did you get the dc1kv digital meter?
amazon
Finished mine today and if I wire it for the 2 external vom’s works great! For some reason I can not get the TL71 IC to function with the 3 positions for 50ua,500ua and the 5ma. I am using a 1980 NOS Simpson 2” panel meter (eBay) with a 4500 ohm reading across the two meter posts. The meter is very accurate when connected to my bench power supply! I have gone over the meter voltage follower circuit so many times with no luck.I am going to walk away for a few days. Anyone have any idea for troubleshooting I may not have tried? Thanks John
note I tied the VEE - to ground could this be the problem.
In order for this circuit to work, you must use a split power supply (+ and - voltages). This can be done with either two supplies or with a virtual ground. I made a comment about the single rail supply that may have been misleading. Sorry :( .
@@xraytonyb Ah, that may explain my issues, too. Couldn't get mine to work so used my DMM. Besides the V+ and V- pins on the IC, where do their corresponding V+ and V- outputs from the dual PS go?
From where i can download the leakage current chart seen in the video? 🙏🙏🙏
Can someone post a link to the diagram that includes the meter? I want to build the unit with a meter and the adjustable voltage pot. Also the 3 way switch? Thanks.
why can't I use my 0-100VDC PS & just put my Fluke 189 uA setting inline (in series) and measure 100V & below caps current flow (leakage) that way?
Which PCB number board did you order. There is no description on their site
#4. You might want to go to their site on a computer, vice a phone. It's an easier site to navigate on a pc.
@@brucebuckeye thanks I'll try that
HELP!!! I just order the PCB and parts as instructed. Can someone please tell me how to wire the test/discharge switch (NKK, S332) to the PCB. Im not so clear on this. For example, which E number on PCB should be wired to which switch contact (1 to 6). Also the common (E11), should this be on more than one switch contact? This would be a super big help. Thank you
i cant find this analog meter any where .I look the other day and found a lot them
Zzzzzap! 60:17
I get the willies every time you touch the capacitor with your bare fingers while you have 450V applied!!
Does this tester dicharge the cap after test??
Go to their YT page and look for the demo video on how to test capacitors.
Could you give me the reference part number this hammond's transformer? I'm very interested in this meter, cause I need to repair and old telefunken radio, and this(meter) is a must for troubleshooting.
Thanks in advance, Richard EA1IFD.
Does the "test" switch provide for discharge in the "off" position?
Yes
👍👍 bigclive will reverse engineer this! Your meter circuit is a slick design.
Electrolytic caps are kind-of like a battery in construction.
Xraytonyb I like your utube videos 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍😎😎👍