The problem I have is with customers not having their own ideas. While it's true that flash is pretty much dead, photos of other artists custom work has primarily replaced it. I'm very rarely asked to make anything new, most people just expect me to do exactly what someone else already did. Then the challenge becomes how do I recreate the piece close enough to the original that the client is happy, but change it enough that I'm not biting the original artwork. It's becoming very unsatisfying as an artist and I don't know how to break out of this cycle
I been tattooing 20yrs always used pencil and paper for designing until I went digital 2 yrs ago, I always used to charge a draw up fee when using my old school methods as it did take alot of drawing supplies and time to design them but since going digital I do all custom deigns on the day of the appointment and it gets included into the hourly rate in the total cost at the end of the day
So glad I found you guys… I honestly think there’s everything in the tattoo community, we’re just people…🤷🏼♀️ some take advantage of our skill set, a lot of envy going on , crazy prices.. not always in accordance to what one gets, but also loads of masterpieces walking around… and a lot of amazing good people teaching at the right pace and sharing…It‘s a bumpy road and neverending learning process.. fun and challenging.. cheers from Berlin
My mum just had that same operation for removing a lobe from Half her lung. I’m an 80s kid so to me it felt like someone told me I was for the gallows. But science now…wow… she’s still here and annoying as ever (mothers, love em, hate em lol) but she ain’t running after the postman or joining any marathons now right enough. So fret not Chris. Hospitals and doctors and the science behind them are amazing in comparison to when we were kids. Blows my mind and I’m forever grateful to all those men and women who don’t wear capes. Thinking of you and your family dude. Best wishes to all thanks both of you for the channel. The UK needed you when you both came along
Absolutely love watching you guys, it’s nice to see people having a rational conversation about the whole tattoogate situation and seeing what we can learn rather than ripping it apart like the rest of the internet does. If I could add a point onto it as I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet, is that I think it’s been proven that the design was taken from someone on Etsy from a video I saw on TikTok where they imitated drawing the same artwork which actually looked very similar to this artists design that she showed her client. I feel like this effects the things you spoke about in this episode, particularly where you discussed charging for drawing time.
Paul needs to check out Sabaton, especially their Wacken 2019 set for the 20th anniversary, it was the 30th anniversary of the festival and also the 20th anniversary of the band. Why? Well they took over two main stages and played across the stages, with the vocalist disappearing off one stage between songs or during solos, running through backstage, and coming to play on another stage. They were joined with previous band members, a whole choir and world-famous cellist Tina Guo. The whole show is available on youtube (searchSabaton - Live Wacken 2019 (Full Show HD)) and it's a love letter to Wacken, its two hours of one of the best metal bands just giving it their all and showing that it doesn't have to just be 4-5 guys in a fixed set.
Saw placebo on tour not long ago and they put on an amazing live show. They had a no Mobile phone policy so I don't know if you'll find footage, but the way they used cameras and lighting was absolutely amazing
I charge a small deposit that comes off the first hour in order to get me to draw and book ya. I know what the other going rates are through my city so I'm in line with that accounting my experience as a factor as well. I charge from when I touch them until I'm done touching them. If we take a lunch of half an hour or more I stop the clock, but I can't go do a puzzle when I'm between sections, changing a needle or letting some bactine set in or whatever. So my time is based on how long I'm obligated to be in your presence, not to sound harsh. I don't charge for setup or breakdown as I always do that on my own time, and for drawing, you get one full redraw or three changes from the original - post that I charge another deposit which replaces the old one, a hundred bucks for a fully rendered piece of custom art isn't a rip off in my opinion. But the remarks about the upgraded chair and stuff reminds me of the auto industry rn, subscribe to get seat warmers or a HP boost, they're already there but you gotta pay to play, what a farce lol. Y'all rock, really value this show and your insights and opinions. 🙏
I agree to us charge a certain fair amount for the art work. But not that silly amount that woman is doing in Canadá 🇨🇦. Make like a rate of 1/4 of the rate you charge for tattooing. If you charge 100/hour for tattooing, charge 25/hour for the drawing.if it takes you 4 hours for the design, charge a extra 100 in the end of tattoo. The consultation charges are ridiculous… only lawyer’s charge that. So yes I agree with a fair charge for drawing but also to be transparent about what you charge before you make the first consultation.
I would love to charge for the design process ,but unfortunately where I live that’s not the norm in the tattoo community . most of my free time is used to drawing up designs for upcoming appointments. I swear 30% of the time they request changes. I’m seriously considering taking a leave of absence. I’m pretty much burnt out and people don’t realize the stress artists go through
As a client, I can see the point of the increased hourly or project rate model or the design fee model, but the increased hourly model makes more intuitive sense to me because the medium of the finished project is important. If I'm working on a piece of hand embroidery or a clothing design, I'll typically do a fully colored rendering on paper of the final design, but it's a necessary step to get to the final product, it's not the final product. I think I'd probably have different feelings about it if I had more of a process focused background than a product focused background, but I'd be happy to pay either if the artist was a reasonable human being.
Dear Chris, all the love, hugs and best regards to you and your mom. She'll be just fine, I'm more than sure of that (my mom got the same one 2 years ago). Thank you for this episode guys.
Paul you may like a UK band called Sleep Token. They're a band who dare to mix different genres such as electronic/R'n'B/metal. A good song to start with is called The Summoning.
You should absolutely get paid for drawing up a design. This, however, should be part of your whole price and it definitely needs to be transparent from the start. Regarding the whole tattoogate saga… who’s the bigger fool, the artist charging or the person buying. I have opinions on both but the crux of the matter is down to transparency and jealousy.
Everyone earns exactly what they deserve. If you ask for an amount and that’s the amount you get then that’s what you’re worth. Too many people will now use this minor event as an excuse to not better their situation. The beauty of this type of work is we can tailor it to the life we want. If you want one million an hour then fucking get that shit, someone out there will pay that. just be ready to match the value for the money.
Completely disagree. You could think your worth £1000 a day, yet the standard and quality of what you produce is not worth a £1000 a day. People need to know what they are worth but also need to make sure their tattoos reflect that. Otherwise you risk overpricing your self and that could have a long term detrimental impact on your business. Just cause you can doesn’t mean you should. C :)
Excellent discussion! I've been thinking about charging per hour of drawing or some sort of for custom designs. As far as price in the US, it really depends on where in the US you live. I'm in a fairly rural area and charge $120 per hour. If I lived 60 miles away in Pittsburgh, my housing and cost of living would be far more. I'd likely need to charge $150-180 per hour to live the same life I do now. It would need to be even higher if it was a major city. As far as $1500 for a sketch, that's absolutely insane. This is why young tattooers need mentors, no matter how talented. I'm all for people getting their money, but this was a misstep. That said, this outrage and the vitriol by the tattoo community is insane to me. Wild that Russ got pulled into this. The man has helped many find ways to make more money legitimately, that and his color wheel is legit a great tool. I hope tattoo artists can get paid for design time. The days of most tattoo artists doing flash art with 0 drawing time is gone. So charging the way flash artists did 25 years ago is just daft. Anyhow, love the show and the convos!
Thanks for the comment. Hopefully if we talk about these problem and come up with suggestions and possible solutions we can stop tearing each other apart and help fellow artists who’ve made mistakes etc. - p
Custom designs should cost more. You buy a suit off the rack vs a tailored suit....there is big difference in price. If something takes more time and resources it should cost more. A lot of people want champagne for beer money. Obviously that tattoogate tattooist was taking the piss, but russ abbot's pricing model does have an element of truth to it.
If the clients knew as much as you do about artists and pricing and value they could respond to any artist's pricing system upon looking at samples of that artist's work and then decide whether or not they want to spend the money. Unfortunately that's not what happens often and it's certainly not what happened here. If you charge something and people are willing to pay it because they understand that that's what work of that quality should cost, then that's absolutely fine, even if other artists are charging less for similar work. But if people accept those high prices because the artist has either allowed them to believe, or worse gone to some effort to convince them that that's the going rate for a tattoo, irrespective of the work involved or the quality thereof, then it might be legal, but it's still very wrong.
Good morning! Awesome video! Thanks for your opinions on this. The reactions of calling this a scam because that artiste charged a design fee got to me. Its not because she charges for her drawing and design time that it's automatically a scam! The client didn't feel she gave good client service and it seems that she does not have good business practice and that will run her business down. I was rolling laughing because I gave the exact same example that Paul did : ford focus vs Lamborghini. Same model exact same brand 😂 that was really funny to me. Hey Im still a focus so I charge focus, dont charge for designs yet but I am working out the kinks of how I want to go and charge my drawing time. Every other field charge time spent. My cousin paid 1k$ for an engineer to photocopy her blueprint to a septic tank location, took 2 minutes for him to give the go : cost 1k$. Lawyers 15$/email, 250$ consultation, etc. Time is money but charge accordingly.
With the 'TattooGate' meme's aren't they exempt from copyright as they are parody and not serious competition? Also on the other side of the argument I quoted £10,000 for a small tattoo once... Was woke up at 4am on a Sunday morning could hear the party booming and a person out of there head hardly able to talk say 'how much would it be for a tattoo' ah joys of the job init lol
Yeah, they might fall under parody exemption actually. But I think the point we were trying to make is why kick a fellow artist when they’re down? Better to offer help/advice/mentorship right? -p
Totally agree, my personal opinion on th subject. If you are charging someone for work then it’s only fair to the client to give them value. In a time where there are so many amazing artists there will be more competition and if someone is charging high prices for substandard work they risk losing more clients as someone who has a higher standard of work could be charging less. Providing clients with a great tattoo and giving them something of value is, in my opinion, good business practice. As an example… Local artist near my studio was charging close to what we charge for a day rate. Over the last year they have gradually lowered their prices as the work the produce compared to what they charge and also compared to other studios in the town is so dramatically different that potential clients are noticing. So the level of their work compared to their price has had a detrimental effect on their business. So while artists can charge what they want, should they charge more based on their skill level?
here is my 2 sense cents 😜 the sound is good, you are great but please don’t smash my greenhouse as it’s the only way I can grow food to stay alive 😊 a stone is just a stone to some people, yet if you craft that boring stone into something interesting or amazing then folks will give a nugget of gold in exchange. Feel free to smash my greenhouse with golden nuggets 😂 Win Win situation 🤘 Stay purple Pony boy 🦄
Because we wanted to make sure we had the best information on a quickly evolving story. Unlike others we prefer to have all the facts before we go running our mouths. Because real humans are involved and we don’t want to hurt others with opinions based on hearsay
My biggest takeaway from the whole thing is the sheer size of the numbers involved. If someone thinks a drawing is worth thousands what is their hourly rate or are they charging for the piece. The idea of paying for custom artwork makes sense but there needs to be some common sense and it’s up to the artist whether that is a one off charge or a higher hourly rate for custom work. I’ve just agreed on a Japanese piece with a tattooer and he did an original drawing for me, and I love what he’s done but that’s not the same world as someone like Paul who’s work is completely original in style? Or am I wrong to presume reworking an existing style (Japanese koi) is worth less that a unique style? And is hourly a better system then paying for a piece flat fee? I’m happy to pay flat fee and if it takes less time that expected then so be it. Though agree not so great for the tattooer if it takes longer.
Thanks for the comment. I think you nailed it with ‘common sense’ that’s all we need to come up with a new business model. Then we can all decide what our rates are based on what suits us best. -p
Douchebags will be Douchebags. Thats the moral of the story. All the drawing in the world means nothing if you cant apply it to skin. I dont believe artist should ever charge for drawings. Ever. That would be like your mechanic charging you for the research that he has to do on the computer to figure out how to do something on your car it's all part of the prep work for a tattoo let's just go back to the old school and get rid of all this new school crap that's going on and all these fancy pen tattooers who don't (and cant) even know how to run a coil machine. Damn millennial kids are gunna ruin the world lol 😆
The problem I have is with customers not having their own ideas. While it's true that flash is pretty much dead, photos of other artists custom work has primarily replaced it. I'm very rarely asked to make anything new, most people just expect me to do exactly what someone else already did. Then the challenge becomes how do I recreate the piece close enough to the original that the client is happy, but change it enough that I'm not biting the original artwork.
It's becoming very unsatisfying as an artist and I don't know how to break out of this cycle
That’s a tough one because it’s the clients that are requesting the copies. Sadly some see Google as a free tattoo flash gallery! - p
I been tattooing 20yrs always used pencil and paper for designing until I went digital 2 yrs ago, I always used to charge a draw up fee when using my old school methods as it did take alot of drawing supplies and time to design them but since going digital I do all custom deigns on the day of the appointment and it gets included into the hourly rate in the total cost at the end of the day
So glad I found you guys… I honestly think there’s everything in the tattoo community, we’re just people…🤷🏼♀️ some take advantage of our skill set, a lot of envy going on , crazy prices.. not always in accordance to what one gets, but also loads of masterpieces walking around… and a lot of amazing good people teaching at the right pace and sharing…It‘s a bumpy road and neverending learning process.. fun and challenging.. cheers from Berlin
My mum just had that same operation for removing a lobe from Half her lung. I’m an 80s kid so to me it felt like someone told me I was for the gallows. But science now…wow… she’s still here and annoying as ever (mothers, love em, hate em lol) but she ain’t running after the postman or joining any marathons now right enough. So fret not Chris. Hospitals and doctors and the science behind them are amazing in comparison to when we were kids. Blows my mind and I’m forever grateful to all those men and women who don’t wear capes. Thinking of you and your family dude. Best wishes to all thanks both of you for the channel. The UK needed you when you both came along
Absolutely love watching you guys, it’s nice to see people having a rational conversation about the whole tattoogate situation and seeing what we can learn rather than ripping it apart like the rest of the internet does. If I could add a point onto it as I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet, is that I think it’s been proven that the design was taken from someone on Etsy from a video I saw on TikTok where they imitated drawing the same artwork which actually looked very similar to this artists design that she showed her client. I feel like this effects the things you spoke about in this episode, particularly where you discussed charging for drawing time.
Paul needs to check out Sabaton, especially their Wacken 2019 set for the 20th anniversary, it was the 30th anniversary of the festival and also the 20th anniversary of the band. Why? Well they took over two main stages and played across the stages, with the vocalist disappearing off one stage between songs or during solos, running through backstage, and coming to play on another stage. They were joined with previous band members, a whole choir and world-famous cellist Tina Guo. The whole show is available on youtube (searchSabaton - Live Wacken 2019 (Full Show HD)) and it's a love letter to Wacken, its two hours of one of the best metal bands just giving it their all and showing that it doesn't have to just be 4-5 guys in a fixed set.
Tattoo artist watching from Jamaica 🇯🇲 one of the first viewers on this premiere
Saw placebo on tour not long ago and they put on an amazing live show. They had a no Mobile phone policy so I don't know if you'll find footage, but the way they used cameras and lighting was absolutely amazing
I charge a small deposit that comes off the first hour in order to get me to draw and book ya. I know what the other going rates are through my city so I'm in line with that accounting my experience as a factor as well. I charge from when I touch them until I'm done touching them. If we take a lunch of half an hour or more I stop the clock, but I can't go do a puzzle when I'm between sections, changing a needle or letting some bactine set in or whatever. So my time is based on how long I'm obligated to be in your presence, not to sound harsh. I don't charge for setup or breakdown as I always do that on my own time, and for drawing, you get one full redraw or three changes from the original - post that I charge another deposit which replaces the old one, a hundred bucks for a fully rendered piece of custom art isn't a rip off in my opinion. But the remarks about the upgraded chair and stuff reminds me of the auto industry rn, subscribe to get seat warmers or a HP boost, they're already there but you gotta pay to play, what a farce lol. Y'all rock, really value this show and your insights and opinions. 🙏
Hey guys great show as always .Do you know when eternal will have a colour range for the EU?
Apparently the Artist didn't even design that doodle, allegedly it was traced from something off google.. For thousands.
Madness!
I agree to us charge a certain fair amount for the art work. But not that silly amount that woman is doing in Canadá 🇨🇦. Make like a rate of 1/4 of the rate you charge for tattooing. If you charge 100/hour for tattooing, charge 25/hour for the drawing.if it takes you 4 hours for the design, charge a extra 100 in the end of tattoo. The consultation charges are ridiculous… only lawyer’s charge that. So yes I agree with a fair charge for drawing but also to be transparent about what you charge before you make the first consultation.
I would love to charge for the design process ,but unfortunately where I live that’s not the norm in the tattoo community .
most of my free time is used to drawing up designs for upcoming appointments. I swear 30% of the time they request changes. I’m seriously considering taking a leave of absence. I’m pretty much burnt out and people don’t realize the stress artists go through
As a client, I can see the point of the increased hourly or project rate model or the design fee model, but the increased hourly model makes more intuitive sense to me because the medium of the finished project is important. If I'm working on a piece of hand embroidery or a clothing design, I'll typically do a fully colored rendering on paper of the final design, but it's a necessary step to get to the final product, it's not the final product. I think I'd probably have different feelings about it if I had more of a process focused background than a product focused background, but I'd be happy to pay either if the artist was a reasonable human being.
Muse and Rammstein both put on incredible shows but they have been doing it like that forever.
Dear Chris, all the love, hugs and best regards to you and your mom. She'll be just fine, I'm more than sure of that (my mom got the same one 2 years ago). Thank you for this episode guys.
GREEK STONER ROCK, and some other stoner rock bands are great, some are just copies (still sound good anyway) but a lot of creative ones too
Paul you may like a UK band called Sleep Token. They're a band who dare to mix different genres such as electronic/R'n'B/metal.
A good song to start with is called The Summoning.
I’ll have a listen. Thanks for the tip -p
Once you guys reach 10k, you should do the show in each others clothes or wear ones the other would wear. I'm expecting a swap accent wise as well. 😅
I second this vote
You should absolutely get paid for drawing up a design. This, however, should be part of your whole price and it definitely needs to be transparent from the start. Regarding the whole tattoogate saga… who’s the bigger fool, the artist charging or the person buying. I have opinions on both but the crux of the matter is down to transparency and jealousy.
🎶 What does the fox say? 🎶
Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding! CASH OR CREDIT ?
Paul, how do you feel about people who come to the store with artwork prepared?
I’d be totally cool with it but, honestly, it’s never come up as clients come to me for my artwork, y’know? Thanks for the comment - p
Everyone earns exactly what they deserve. If you ask for an amount and that’s the amount you get then that’s what you’re worth. Too many people will now use this minor event as an excuse to not better their situation. The beauty of this type of work is we can tailor it to the life we want. If you want one million an hour then fucking get that shit, someone out there will pay that. just be ready to match the value for the money.
Completely disagree. You could think your worth £1000 a day, yet the standard and quality of what you produce is not worth a £1000 a day. People need to know what they are worth but also need to make sure their tattoos reflect that. Otherwise you risk overpricing your self and that could have a long term detrimental impact on your business. Just cause you can doesn’t mean you should. C :)
Excellent discussion! I've been thinking about charging per hour of drawing or some sort of for custom designs. As far as price in the US, it really depends on where in the US you live.
I'm in a fairly rural area and charge $120 per hour. If I lived 60 miles away in Pittsburgh, my housing and cost of living would be far more. I'd likely need to charge $150-180 per hour to live the same life I do now. It would need to be even higher if it was a major city.
As far as $1500 for a sketch, that's absolutely insane. This is why young tattooers need mentors, no matter how talented. I'm all for people getting their money, but this was a misstep. That said, this outrage and the vitriol by the tattoo community is insane to me. Wild that Russ got pulled into this. The man has helped many find ways to make more money legitimately, that and his color wheel is legit a great tool.
I hope tattoo artists can get paid for design time. The days of most tattoo artists doing flash art with 0 drawing time is gone. So charging the way flash artists did 25 years ago is just daft. Anyhow, love the show and the convos!
Thanks for the comment. Hopefully if we talk about these problem and come up with suggestions and possible solutions we can stop tearing each other apart and help fellow artists who’ve made mistakes etc. - p
Custom designs should cost more.
You buy a suit off the rack vs a tailored suit....there is big difference in price. If something takes more time and resources it should cost more.
A lot of people want champagne for beer money.
Obviously that tattoogate tattooist was taking the piss, but russ abbot's pricing model does have an element of truth to it.
If the clients knew as much as you do about artists and pricing and value they could respond to any artist's pricing system upon looking at samples of that artist's work and then decide whether or not they want to spend the money. Unfortunately that's not what happens often and it's certainly not what happened here. If you charge something and people are willing to pay it because they understand that that's what work of that quality should cost, then that's absolutely fine, even if other artists are charging less for similar work. But if people accept those high prices because the artist has either allowed them to believe, or worse gone to some effort to convince them that that's the going rate for a tattoo, irrespective of the work involved or the quality thereof, then it might be legal, but it's still very wrong.
Good morning! Awesome video! Thanks for your opinions on this.
The reactions of calling this a scam because that artiste charged a design fee got to me. Its not because she charges for her drawing and design time that it's automatically a scam! The client didn't feel she gave good client service and it seems that she does not have good business practice and that will run her business down.
I was rolling laughing because I gave the exact same example that Paul did : ford focus vs Lamborghini. Same model exact same brand 😂 that was really funny to me.
Hey Im still a focus so I charge focus, dont charge for designs yet but I am working out the kinks of how I want to go and charge my drawing time. Every other field charge time spent. My cousin paid 1k$ for an engineer to photocopy her blueprint to a septic tank location, took 2 minutes for him to give the go : cost 1k$. Lawyers 15$/email, 250$ consultation, etc.
Time is money but charge accordingly.
Exactly! Charge accordingly, be human and offer great customer service. That’s all it takes. Thanks for the comment Elaine! 👍
Where i am the average rate is £500/day.
With the 'TattooGate' meme's aren't they exempt from copyright as they are parody and not serious competition?
Also on the other side of the argument I quoted £10,000 for a small tattoo once... Was woke up at 4am on a Sunday morning could hear the party booming and a person out of there head hardly able to talk say 'how much would it be for a tattoo' ah joys of the job init lol
Yeah, they might fall under parody exemption actually. But I think the point we were trying to make is why kick a fellow artist when they’re down? Better to offer help/advice/mentorship right? -p
Artists can charge anything they like at the end of the day.
Totally agree, my personal opinion on th subject. If you are charging someone for work then it’s only fair to the client to give them value. In a time where there are so many amazing artists there will be more competition and if someone is charging high prices for substandard work they risk losing more clients as someone who has a higher standard of work could be charging less.
Providing clients with a great tattoo and giving them something of value is, in my opinion, good business practice.
As an example…
Local artist near my studio was charging close to what we charge for a day rate. Over the last year they have gradually lowered their prices as the work the produce compared to what they charge and also compared to other studios in the town is so dramatically different that potential clients are noticing. So the level of their work compared to their price has had a detrimental effect on their business.
So while artists can charge what they want, should they charge more based on their skill level?
i thought the fox sketch was traced from a picture on Etsy...
Apparently so.
here is my 2 sense cents 😜
the sound is good, you are great but please don’t smash my greenhouse as it’s the only way I can grow food to stay alive 😊 a stone is just a stone to some people, yet if you craft that boring stone into something interesting or amazing then folks will give a nugget of gold in exchange. Feel free to smash my greenhouse with golden nuggets 😂 Win Win situation 🤘
Stay purple Pony boy 🦄
A cracker of a show guys.
Why did you take so long to come to the topic?
Because we wanted to make sure we had the best information on a quickly evolving story. Unlike others we prefer to have all the facts before we go running our mouths.
Because real humans are involved and we don’t want to hurt others with opinions based on hearsay
My biggest takeaway from the whole thing is the sheer size of the numbers involved. If someone thinks a drawing is worth thousands what is their hourly rate or are they charging for the piece. The idea of paying for custom artwork makes sense but there needs to be some common sense and it’s up to the artist whether that is a one off charge or a higher hourly rate for custom work. I’ve just agreed on a Japanese piece with a tattooer and he did an original drawing for me, and I love what he’s done but that’s not the same world as someone like Paul who’s work is completely original in style? Or am I wrong to presume reworking an existing style (Japanese koi) is worth less that a unique style? And is hourly a better system then paying for a piece flat fee? I’m happy to pay flat fee and if it takes less time that expected then so be it. Though agree not so great for the tattooer if it takes longer.
Thanks for the comment. I think you nailed it with ‘common sense’ that’s all we need to come up with a new business model. Then we can all decide what our rates are based on what suits us best. -p
Douchebags will be Douchebags. Thats the moral of the story. All the drawing in the world means nothing if you cant apply it to skin. I dont believe artist should ever charge for drawings. Ever.
That would be like your mechanic charging you for the research that he has to do on the computer to figure out how to do something on your car it's all part of the prep work for a tattoo let's just go back to the old school and get rid of all this new school crap that's going on and all these fancy pen tattooers who don't (and cant) even know how to run a coil machine. Damn millennial kids are gunna ruin the world lol 😆