Thank you HMM for the compassion for the Fitzgerald and thanks to the Captain for continuing to share information with us related to the loss of his uncle.
Good stuff as usual. a couple things. I was an "oiler" on a hulett & a hi-lift operator. A hulett could, would and did punch holes in the floor and side tanks. It had that kind of power. When unloaded you could see the welded repair patches. It was said a grab of taconite was 20tons. If a cable on the leg failed and it had a full grab, I can see damage to the floor plate, but structural damage seems extreme. Having said that I was a dock worker not an engineer. I was told firsthand by a marine engineer who was on one of the boats that had an issue downbound - she was loaded - he was aboard - that both the company and the CG were concerned about the hull. This body of water was closed for two days.. both the CG & the company deemed her seaworthy. He wondered. I read the Paquette book when it came out. It sure is a great read but 20 years has fogged my memory. I know Capt. Paquette discussed how much water must have been coming in. Capt. McSorley reported he had both pumps on full. That allowed Paquette to "do the math".. the infiltration was extreme. But I also recall that one of the main winter jobs was keel work. I have this voice in my head that it may have been an emergency repair...was to stiffen or at least reweld the keel. You have the CG records you'd know. Paquette considered McSorley [my words] a bit of a "cowboy". Given what you pointed out by the launch & the engineering [bulkheads] and the added tonnage meaning reduced draft and the mindset of the industry she was an accident waiting to happen. Have an eggnog. Merry Christmas.
Interesting commentary; thanks for sharing it here Greg. Interesting that you would bring up the subject of punching holes in the floor...that's actually the subject of our next video, coming soon. Merry Christmas...HMM
If anything points to a possible design flaw in the Fitzgerald, I think it’s the short lifespan of her sister ship, the Arthur B. Homer. The Homer was lengthened to 826 feet during the winter immediately after the Fitzgerald’s sinking. She should have had a long life ahead of her, but was laid up only a short time later in 1980, never to sail again. While there were tough economic times in the early 80s, the trend was to scrap all of the 600-footers and go with larger vessels. The Homer was one of the largest, not counting the 1000-footers. A further conversion to a self-unloader should have extended her lifespan to the present day. But for some reason, it seems they avoided using her again. It might be interesting to seek out crew members from the Homer to see if she had problems.
@@mjanovec she had the same problems as the Fitz. And she tended to behave the same as the Fitz did in rough weather. They knew they had the proof of the problem, so they didn't let her sail again.
I was a deckhand on the J.R. SENSIBAR in 1971. We used to see the FITZ unloading at Zug Island when we went in with coal. We deckhands thought it would be great to get on the FITZ. I wasn't sailing in '75, and was shocked when I heard she sank. Maybe that old SENSIBAR wasn't so bad after all.
Don and Darrell you two are relentless in your search for answers of the mystery of how the Mighty Fitzgerald went down. And we all appreciate that. Happy Holidays to everyone. Brian from Colorado 🤠
always a great presentation Don! You should ask Captain Darrell, if he ever heard the incident the Anderson had in 1974, where after going through a rough storm, a lower plate on the bottom of the hull cracked, and was letting in water in the ballast tanks. One of the engineers , reported to Capt. Cooper that the king gages were registering almost 30 inches of water per hour coming in. This prompted the Anderson to be put in drydock for immediate repairs.
I was young when my Dad showed me the newspaper article about this tragedy. I remember the USS Belknap fire was around the same time. He always insisted that I be aware of the goings on in the world. I damn sure passed that on to my two kids.
Captain Darrell is a national treasure. As are you, Mr. Don. The Fitzgerald seemed like it was just worn out after being overloaded year after year. The screen bulkheads and load lines are basically what did it in. And I remember hearing about the Fitzgerald being at Bay Shipbuilding for an emergency repair job right before all of this happened. That L strait that Capt. Darrell was talking about along with the radars ultimately did them in. The Fitzgerald and its crew went through hell that none of them deserved. With all of that being said, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
@@shawndavis8438 absolutely. Worked to death and not looked after. I think McSorley probably did the most damage to it. Because prior to him, she was working hard yes, but Pulcer kept up on maintenance and would slow down in bad seas. You can use the same logic with an elderly person on land who should stop driving. McSorley had also seen better days by the time of the sinking. Experienced and skilled yes, but as burnt out as the ship he captained.
Very interesting stuff you’re sharing and it all starts to make sense now how the domino effect starts to take shape on how or why she failed. Very interesting about the unloading equipment hitting hard being a factor.
I love all of the information that keeps coming out! I hope we could get the log book I think that would answer a few questions and solve some of the mystery that is hidden. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for sharing! These make my day! I’m always learning something new and thanks for that! I can’t wait to see what you guys have in store for next time. I still can’t believe that the Coast Guard didn’t fix the hatch covers despite the issues she had. I’m sure someone had to have made a complaint about them. The Herbert C. Jackson was the next ship built after the Fitz. She’s still sailing today, but I wonder if she had any keel issues as the Fitz did.
I was so excited for this! Another fantastic episode! Thank you @History Mystery Man and Captain Darrell Walton! Have a very Merry Christmas to you both! Your biggest fan! Pari Ann
I was in kindergarten when it sank. And I've always been hoping someone would give more insight as to why it sank.. Thank you! These stories are very educational.
Another great video from you and Capt. Darrell. I can honestly say that I have learned more about the Fitz from you guys than from anyone else. Thank you for all of the great info. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you both.
Thank you again HMM! You and Captain Darrell I think have hit on all these little things add up to the unfortunate accident. Can't wait till the next video. Keep up the great work. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to both of you!
Great video. I often wonder about the Fitzgerald. I have seen the ships and the steel mills. I have been to the Rouge and to Zug. I have seen the ore cranes. I hail from Alpena.
I love your informative content. I did a report on the Fitz in 7th grade (1977) and have been fascinated about the topic and great lakes shipping ever since. Thank you so very much for digging up all the interesting untold tidbits that tells the real story. Nothing much changes in the world we live in. Follow the $$ it will reveal the truth.
In 76 at MTU my professor spoke of wrong steel with a transition temp (ductile to brittle) that was well above freezing. Meaning highly sensitive to cracks in weld zones. ?
Yeah...I have also heard about the steel the Fitz was built with...that it was brittle. We may have to dig into that and find out more. Thanks Donald...HMM
I remember that Michael Armagost ordered the repair/replacement on the radars from watching a video. Like Darrell, I also believe that she was screwed from the beginning after slamming into the dock. I'm also curious as to why the steam winches were problematic to handle them compared to electric ones?
Agree with all the prior comments, another excellent and very informative video HMM and Captain Darrell! Thank you Captain Darrell for all the time and effort you put into researching, and the way you condense it and use analogies to explain things for the benefit of those of us less knowledgeable. Wishing you both, and all my fellow viewers a very safe and joyous holiday season and all the best in 2025!!!
The inverted stern section intrigues me - how did it really get that way and still stay so close to the bow section? It has me thinking the vessel broke in two on the surface - maybe after the nose dive began.
Any of you boys note a change in the Canadian and USCG charts for the Michipicitan shoals after the Fitz went down? Quick increases in water pressure can split hull welds and rivets and break the back of any vessel.
What an amazing man Capt. Darrell is. When the pair of you are together and feeding each other ideas it really seems like this mystery might one day be solved. The theory that the ship may have twisted or bucked and severed the power cables to the radar is highly plausible and yet I never heard that from anyone else. Even Capt. Darrell was surprised by it. In fairness, his research on the damage inflicted to the radars seems equally as plausible. Thank you for this, I can't wait for the next one,
It was common knowledge that the Fitzgerald was on it's last Leg. One of my best friends was working in the dry dock In Duluth/Superior when the Fitz came in for repairs. There Was I obvious cracking on the Interior hull. Instead of making Expensive repairs and losing Money the ship owners decided she was good for one More run. All about dollars and Greed.
@@billbertagnoli4226 it’s a shame that a bunch of desk jockeys make these kind of decisions , playing god with so many lives on the lakes. My mom remembers going from sturgeon bay down to manitowac to pick up my grandfather when they would come in for winter layup, usually on or around the 23rd of Dec each year.know these crews are on the water from early march until the locks close.
When I lived in Marquette I had friends who worked on the ships To make money to buy a house. They talked about how demanding It was to be on an ore boat for Months at a time. A special Breed of men.
Thank you for your incredible videos, your amazing work is keeping the light of the 29 men and captain Darrell's father memory alive. Merry Christmas from Northern Ireland.
This is the reason I love your videos! New information comes out and tells more of the story. I really really hope that you are able to interview more family members and friends of the crew members from the fitz, the Anderson and the ford during the storm that sank the fitz!!!!
If you distinguished gentlemen ever do a "live" presentation, I would love to attend. Thank you so very much for sharing your insight, knowledge etc. May you indeed have a Very Blessed Holiday Season! (to all survivors of the "Big Fitz too!) May her crew R.I.P.
My grandfather Jack Arbter was the fleet engineer for Columbia when the Fritz was being designed and built, first ship on the Great Lakes with an all welded hull. She had a good run until they loaded to much for the storm sh sailed into, Sad but that’s why she sank, she wasn’t doomed from the start .
Merry Christmas HMM & Capt Darrell! Another great video with a lot of info to digest. The fact that the problems with her keel could have dated back to her construction and her launch is interesting. Regardless of the cause or causes here is no doubt in my mind that the Fitz had serious structural issues way before she sank. I wonder if improper loading could have also taken it's toll on the Fitz? I have heard in other videos and even from a person that works on a freighter that a ship's hull can crack/ break from uneven loading. Also, the radar problems you mentioned are noteworthy. Maybe the loss of the radars wasn't just due to the storm. However, I'm most intrigued by about the Fitz's problems that caused Capt. McSorley to want to "throttle back" well before the worst part of the storm.Hope to hear more about that, if there is any info out there. Looking forward to next video. Thanks again guys. Btw HMM I never knew until this video that you worked on the Nautica Queen, that's cool, always thought you mostly or only worked on tugs.
Thanks Gregg...I appreciate your continual support. The subject of improper loading comes up in the next video. Yes...I ran the Queen when it was sold...took it to Cleveland from Toledo, and than ran it there for three years. It was a fun job...got to be with people, passengers and got to go home every night...a real treat. Thanks again my friend...and Merry Christmas! HMM
No problem at all HMM! I appreciate the time and effort you (and Capt. Darrell in this case) put into the videos. The amount of research Capt. Darrell has put into the Fitz is amazing and it's good he is presenting all the facts and scenarios that could have contributed to her sinking. Don't let the rude and "smart" comments (even if it's only a few) people post affect what you do. Like you say "keep on keeping on". And good to know you enjoyed your time running the Queen. I can imagine it was a lot different than working on the tugs. Looking forward to the next video!
Absolutely! That's why we know it didn't just break in half and fall...because the bow plowed a true path through the Superior lake bottom floor. Thanks...HMM
Another great conversation about the Mighty Fitz. Thanks for keeping her memory alive and remembering those that were lost. I appreciate your efforts into learning from things that went wrong so we don't repeat the same mistakes in the future. No one is trying to point a finger here and blame someone, only trying to make sure that this never happens again. Hopefully technology and training continue to advance to protect the men and women on the freshwater seas.
Thank you Capt. Darrell. Lord bless you and yours. Lord bless and care for the souls of the mighty Fitz. May they rest in peace including your uncle Grant. HMM great job. May you both have a peaceful Christmas.
I wonder if there was an Anderson on the Arthur M Anderson on the night that the Edmund Fitzgerald sank? How do you find out the names of the crew of the Arthur M Anderson on November 9 and 10?
I think it's pretty obvious that negligence was common in regards to certain things. How long after the war were oceanic T2 tankers sailing? What's the 'real' condition of current rail road track across the country? There's good reason to keep asking questions. Great video as usual!
Any accident involves links in a chain and it takes one one more of those links to fail.. Capt Darrell continues to find those missing broken links in this particular case well done Sir! and Thanks HMM for this latest episode!
May God rest the souls of the Fitzgerald’s captain and his crew and may he continue comfort the family members left behind by this terrible tragedy…..🌸🌸🌹🌹🌹🌸🌸🌹🌹🌹🌹🌸🌸🌸
Awesome...this new information has me even more intrigued then ever...great jobs fellas..I'm looking forward to the next video...I'm happy that the information was shared about the welding rods, and what not being crammed between the ribs of the hull...I watched a video where Red spoke about the times he was there when they installed the stern, and bow thrusters..he said there was all kinds of garbage they used to stuff under the ribs and keel of the Fitz...a local news affiliate did a piece with a welder for the Fitz..he said he re-welded in port holes because the portholes popped out during heavy seas
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah! 🪕🏴☠️ my two favorites dropping some video greatness on this wonderful Saturday! Cpt Darrell and Cpt Don! Just came out to sand some framing for a chair I’m making my wife. Just fired up the ol pipe 😎 kick on UA-cam and here we go! Wonderful night! Bowl will be that much better 🙏✊
9:12 LOOK at the pilot house. The rim that goes above the windows, at the very top right. It’s all been smashed down like a wet hat. It would have taken considerable force to do that. The amount of water needed to cause all that buckling, coming down on her more or less straight from above! To me that looks like the handiwork of a mother of a rogue wave, certainly enough to do the whole ship in.
Read: 'The Night the Fitz Went Down' - Hugh Bishop, Captain Dudley Paquette, a thorough and fascinating recounting. Fine book. That ship had severe problems. Shortly thereafter, her nearly new, by laker standards, sister ship was scrapped.
They don't call them the Great lakes for nothing . I lived on the lakes and rivers i learned to swim in 6 foot waves . The lakes are more dangerous than the oceans. They'll throw at you in a second what takes the ocean an hour to brew . Many great men live next to an rest eternal in these waters . The fits and her story I pray they are never forgotten. Children should be taught these invaluable stories, and way of life . OSHA says there are no accidents which in fact is true . Thank you for this interview, and guys coming forward.
Thank you both for the many hours of hard work and research devoted to this haunting mystery. God bless you both and the families of those brave men who were lost that cold, terrible, stormy night. Merry Christmas to those who celebrate Christmas and Happy Holidays for those who don't. Stay safe good people. Teri Woolum LeFevers.
Gosh, the problems the Fitz had just keep piling up. I always thought that was a very violent launch and have always wondered when it smashed into that wall if it had sustained any damage. Thank you fellas for digging up all this information, very interesting!
I don’t know about them just “eye balling” to see if the keel was straight. They didn’t have lasers. But, I am sure they used other mechanical means to assure a straight line.
When you start building anything with steel and you weld you cause stress fracture and as it ages and it gets more. As with a ship that is getting hit with water and stress from other things like heat and cold the more wear and tear till it breaks. Am sure there was so many stress fractures and they new it as the ship was getting older and when it was inspected it was getting worse. How many times a year they do that i don't know. Bottom line it comes down to money. They just used her to long till she broke in half.
I've never heard in any of these discussions , the fact that the Fitz was cut in half and lengthened at Fraser Shipyard in Superior. The men at Fraser said the keel was in horrible condition with welding rods, nuts and bolts, etc found in between the keel plates. They said the Fitz was always loaded to the Max and run hard. She often had the record yearly tonnage on the Lakes.
In my youth I was fortunate to see placemats from the gallery that a man had give to my step grandfather I didn't realize the significance of see these placemats and later as being a trombone player in high school marching band we we practicing the same night the Fitz sank 😭
One thing is certain she was rode to her breaking point,that’s interesting about the radar being knocked out a few times that summer. Did they just do a fix or completely get a brand new radar for the fitz? And all that banging to her hull combined with all the stress,it just all adds up. Overtime the more use something has it speeds up it’s deteriorating process. I still say there’s something else behind this sinking,keep looking more into it Captains Darrol and mr mystery and I will as well.
HMM and Captain Walton, Thank You From the Bottom Of My Heart For All That You Do. What Amazing New and Interesting Information! Looking Forward To the Next Part Of the Mystery. The Both Of You Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2025 and Be Safe Out There! BTW I Seen An Old News Cast From November 26,1995 From WTOL 11 Vault On the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald. Captain Walton Had Great Information Back Then.
I don't buy that the keel was laid haphazardly with a good enough attitude, they had access to highly accurate transits and knew how to use them, however there seems to have obviously been a flaw in the hull. I seem to recall from somewhere that loading practice's could have stressed the hull if it wasn't done evenly allowing it to bend and over time could have led to cracking and eventual failure. I was 15 and remember that was one wicked storm.
I remember it being said that it was loaded down and sitting deeper in the water then it should have been for that time of year. Has anyone else heard that before?
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you & Capt Darrell HMM. On to business now. I'm finding this very interesting you two. I like learning new stuff & every time you two get together to talk about the Mighty Fitz and all the new information, Capt Darrell is getting sounds like the Fitz was a mess to begin with. I wonder if she was doomed from day 1. Jind of sounds like it to me. And THANK YOU BOTH for carrying so much to revisit this tragedy every year. On the video of the fitz launching was filmed by A. M. Anderson the same person who has his name on the Fitz's sister ship & his wife I presume founded the cathedral up there. Now that's some spooky stuff. Especially since the Anderson waste last one to seethe Fitz & the last ship Vapt Mc Sorly talked too before the Fitz sank (Capt Darrel, HMM, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
I have never noticed the flex in the launch footage before I guess Cause I never thought to look for it but it's insane! Incredible content guys, a history major I love your channel. Great Sunday morning coffee content!
Captain Paquettes book is a “must read” for any Fitzgerald aficionado. I believe he pretty much sums things up by stating what sunk the Fitz was negligence. The further one digs, the more apparent Captain Paquette was correct. I had no idea, nor can remember reading anything about the Fitz having radar issues the prior summer. With that in mind, the issues already confirmed about not being able to close hatches, letting boats run deeper in the winter months, loose keel, etc etc etc. Captain Paquette was 100% correct. I still would like to know whose palms got greased to have the winter load lines changed. To me, that’s pretty darned stupid knowing what happens come November.
I just got that book for Xmas and read it.. I believe as well , that Capt Paquette summed it..along with red burgner... although both were fairly critical of McSorley,I tend to think he was just burnt out.. regardless,he was responsible for the ship and everybody...
@ while nobody really wants to speak badly of the dead, I agree with you on the fact that McSorely was indeed responsible for the lives of his crew. Every captain is when they disembark under questionable terms. For instance, if I pilot a boat, let somebody ride on the bow of the boat in rough seas, and that person flies out of the boat? You bet I’m responsible. McSorely was one facet of many things that ended up with the Fitzgerald’s sinking. For instance, weather forecasts are a lot better now than they were in 1975. Today, you see masters taking shelter rather than venturing out (There still are exceptions, surprisingly! Watch Marine Traffic when you know the lakes are stirred up). Even at that, he and Cooper THOUGHT they could take an alternative to let the shore of Canada be their lee in the upcoming storm. Unfortunately, that was a bad gamble.
@@ripperace 👍👍👍right on, 100%..you have read the book,so I'm not even gonna paraphrase that,.... we all will , apparently,never know what exactly went on those couple of days,but the years/ months/ days leading up to that point, paint a fairly clear picture of what unfortunately happened...at least some of the blame has to point to the captain,but he was potentially pushed hard by corporate greed and demand to perform the way he did... the whole thing,is such a sorrowful saga...they almost made it to whitefish..but anyway, happy 2025 to you 👍👍👍👊
@@elroyelblander6277 in any industry, things get shuffled under to be taken care of “later”. Or regulations get changed for one reason or another. There’s no doubt in my mind that the company pushed for more. How else would they line their pockets? It’s also been proven that the Fitz was in need of some much needed repairs that got “shuffled”. To my understanding, it is ultimately up to the captain whether the ship sails, or goes in for repairs. We know McSorley was a company man. We also know that at times in heavy weather, the Fitz had a tendency to make him question its condition. (See anything written about the Fitz’s “wiggling thing” McSorley talked about.) Happy New Year to you as well!
There are ZERO cables that run from the radar's back aft. It's a direct hard wire job from the radar antenna down through the roof of the pilot house to the radar stands, in the pilothouse . The water getting into the unit can only happen if who ever worked on it weather it was Sperry the actual radar people or Benson Eclectic contracted out of Superior,WI. Didn't seal it up right enough with silicon caulking
Something about you guys and the Fitz. That grabs ahold of ya..and you can't let go. I can't stop watching and listening. I do enjoy .
Thank you HMM for the compassion for the Fitzgerald and thanks to the Captain for continuing to share information with us related to the loss of his uncle.
Good stuff as usual. a couple things. I was an "oiler" on a hulett & a hi-lift operator. A hulett could, would and did punch holes in the floor and side tanks. It had that kind of power. When unloaded you could see the welded repair patches. It was said a grab of taconite was 20tons. If a cable on the leg failed and it had a full grab, I can see damage to the floor plate, but structural damage seems extreme. Having said that I was a dock worker not an engineer. I was told firsthand by a marine engineer who was on one of the boats that had an issue downbound - she was loaded - he was aboard - that both the company and the CG were concerned about the hull. This body of water was closed for two days.. both the CG & the company deemed her seaworthy. He wondered. I read the Paquette book when it came out. It sure is a great read but 20 years has fogged my memory. I know Capt. Paquette discussed how much water must have been coming in. Capt. McSorley reported he had both pumps on full. That allowed Paquette to "do the math".. the infiltration was extreme. But I also recall that one of the main winter jobs was keel work. I have this voice in my head that it may have been an emergency repair...was to stiffen or at least reweld the keel. You have the CG records you'd know. Paquette considered McSorley [my words] a bit of a "cowboy". Given what you pointed out by the launch & the engineering [bulkheads] and the added tonnage meaning reduced draft and the mindset of the industry she was an accident waiting to happen. Have an eggnog. Merry Christmas.
@@gregwhite8503 those Hullet unloaders were always kinda unsettling to me. Great big mechanical spider.
Interesting commentary; thanks for sharing it here Greg. Interesting that you would bring up the subject of punching holes in the floor...that's actually the subject of our next video, coming soon. Merry Christmas...HMM
I really love the relationship and bonding time that you and Captain Darrell have. It's always a joy to see the two of you.
Thanks Aaron...so appreciated. HMM
If anything points to a possible design flaw in the Fitzgerald, I think it’s the short lifespan of her sister ship, the Arthur B. Homer. The Homer was lengthened to 826 feet during the winter immediately after the Fitzgerald’s sinking. She should have had a long life ahead of her, but was laid up only a short time later in 1980, never to sail again. While there were tough economic times in the early 80s, the trend was to scrap all of the 600-footers and go with larger vessels. The Homer was one of the largest, not counting the 1000-footers. A further conversion to a self-unloader should have extended her lifespan to the present day. But for some reason, it seems they avoided using her again. It might be interesting to seek out crew members from the Homer to see if she had problems.
@@mjanovec she had the same problems as the Fitz. And she tended to behave the same as the Fitz did in rough weather. They knew they had the proof of the problem, so they didn't let her sail again.
@@jacktfowler246I believe you're correct
This is what I have been waiting for... the nitty-gritty. Thank you, Captain Darrell! Merry Christmas, everyone!!!
I was a deckhand on the J.R. SENSIBAR in 1971. We used to see the FITZ unloading at Zug Island when we went in with coal. We deckhands thought it would be great to get on the FITZ. I wasn't sailing in '75, and was shocked when I heard she sank. Maybe that old SENSIBAR wasn't so bad after all.
I could listen to Darrell Walton all day. He's so knowledgeable about the Fitzgerald. Thank you hmm for the videos you show.😊😊😊😊😊❤❤
Thank You Captain Darrell for some more pieces of the puzzle.
Again, thank you, Don and Captain Darrell Walton for another terrific discussion. As long as you keep doing these, I will watch faithfully. ❤
Thank you MissTerri...you are so appreciated. HMM
Don and Darrell you two are relentless in your search for answers of the mystery of how the Mighty Fitzgerald went down. And we all appreciate that. Happy Holidays to everyone. Brian from Colorado 🤠
always a great presentation Don! You should ask Captain Darrell, if he ever heard the incident the Anderson had in 1974, where after going through a rough storm, a lower plate on the bottom of the hull cracked, and was letting in water in the ballast tanks. One of the engineers , reported to Capt. Cooper that the king gages were registering almost 30 inches of water per hour coming in. This prompted the Anderson to be put in drydock for immediate repairs.
We will do some digging on that subject. Thanks for watching!
Wow new info! Can’t wait to hear the rest of this story! Thanks gentlemen!
I was young when my Dad showed me the newspaper article about this tragedy. I remember the USS Belknap fire was around the same time. He always insisted that I be aware of the goings on in the world. I damn sure passed that on to my two kids.
Great info, patiently waiting for part two. Thank you for posting!
You're welcome; thanks for taking the time to watch. HMM
Fascinating and informative, thank you Captain Darrell. What a cliff hanger! Can't wait for the next part!
I guess this is going to be tune in next week to find out deal. A cliffhanger type of deal
Captain Darrell is a national treasure. As are you, Mr. Don. The Fitzgerald seemed like it was just worn out after being overloaded year after year. The screen bulkheads and load lines are basically what did it in. And I remember hearing about the Fitzgerald being at Bay Shipbuilding for an emergency repair job right before all of this happened. That L strait that Capt. Darrell was talking about along with the radars ultimately did them in. The Fitzgerald and its crew went through hell that none of them deserved. With all of that being said, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
@@shawndavis8438 absolutely. Worked to death and not looked after. I think McSorley probably did the most damage to it. Because prior to him, she was working hard yes, but Pulcer kept up on maintenance and would slow down in bad seas. You can use the same logic with an elderly person on land who should stop driving. McSorley had also seen better days by the time of the sinking. Experienced and skilled yes, but as burnt out as the ship he captained.
Simply fascinating! Between the interview and the comments, what a source of information (and possibly a little speculation). . .
Very interesting stuff you’re sharing and it all starts to make sense now how the domino effect starts to take shape on how or why she failed. Very interesting about the unloading equipment hitting hard being a factor.
Thanks for sharing all of the information! Captain Darrell just keeps digging up the nuggets. HMM thanks for putting it all together for us!
I absolutely LOVE these videos!!! HMM struck gold with the Captain here! Thank you both for your time and ESPECIALLY your KNOWLEDGE!!!
I wish a very Merry and Blessed Christmas and new year to HMM and Captain Darrell!!! God Bless you both and your families!!!
I love all of the information that keeps coming out! I hope we could get the log book I think that would answer a few questions and solve some of the mystery that is hidden. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for sharing! These make my day! I’m always learning something new and thanks for that! I can’t wait to see what you guys have in store for next time.
I still can’t believe that the Coast Guard didn’t fix the hatch covers despite the issues she had. I’m sure someone had to have made a complaint about them. The Herbert C. Jackson was the next ship built after the Fitz. She’s still sailing today, but I wonder if she had any keel issues as the Fitz did.
I was so excited for this! Another fantastic episode! Thank you @History Mystery Man and Captain Darrell Walton! Have a very Merry Christmas to you both! Your biggest fan!
Pari Ann
Can’t wait for the next video!!! Love these . We were left with a cliff hanger
That pic at 9:39 shows Hewitt unloaders being used! So Cool. What a shame they were destined to the scrapper
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME !!!!
this is a bonus gift. Love this show.
Merry christmas everyone
Merry Christmas, friend.
I was in kindergarten when it sank. And I've always been hoping someone would give more insight as to why it sank.. Thank you! These stories are very educational.
Another great video from you and Capt. Darrell. I can honestly say that I have learned more about the Fitz from you guys than from anyone else. Thank you for all of the great info. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you both.
Thank you again HMM!
You and Captain Darrell I think have hit on all these little things add up to the unfortunate accident.
Can't wait till the next video.
Keep up the great work.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to both of you!
Great video. I often wonder about the Fitzgerald. I have seen the ships and the steel mills. I have been to the Rouge and to Zug. I have seen the ore cranes. I hail from Alpena.
Thanks...I love Alpena...we used to go in there with our tug and barge. HMM
I love your informative content. I did a report on the Fitz in 7th grade (1977) and have been fascinated about the topic and great lakes shipping ever since. Thank you so very much for digging up all the interesting untold tidbits that tells the real story.
Nothing much changes in the world we live in. Follow the $$ it will reveal the truth.
Thanks for watching!
In 76 at MTU my professor spoke of wrong steel with a transition temp (ductile to brittle) that was well above freezing. Meaning highly sensitive to cracks in weld zones. ?
Yeah...I have also heard about the steel the Fitz was built with...that it was brittle. We may have to dig into that and find out more. Thanks Donald...HMM
Very glad to see you guys again. My birthday is 12/23. This is a great gift!!
Have a Happy Birthday!🎉
I remember that Michael Armagost ordered the repair/replacement on the radars from watching a video. Like Darrell, I also believe that she was screwed from the beginning after slamming into the dock.
I'm also curious as to why the steam winches were problematic to handle them compared to electric ones?
What a great discussion gentlemen! Thank you for this, from Alaska.
Agree with all the prior comments, another excellent and very informative video HMM and Captain Darrell! Thank you Captain Darrell for all the time and effort you put into researching, and the way you condense it and use analogies to explain things for the benefit of those of us less knowledgeable. Wishing you both, and all my fellow viewers a very safe and joyous holiday season and all the best in 2025!!!
The inverted stern section intrigues me - how did it really get that way and still stay so close to the bow section? It has me thinking the vessel broke in two on the surface - maybe after the nose dive began.
Any of you boys note a change in the Canadian and USCG charts for the Michipicitan shoals after the Fitz went down? Quick increases in water pressure can split hull welds and rivets and break the back of any vessel.
Thank you for the Christmas break posting HMM you and Capt. Darrel and families have a safe Merry Christmas
Was on the edge of my seat. Cannot wait for the next one. Have a Happy Holiday Captains.
What an amazing man Capt. Darrell is. When the pair of you are together and feeding each other ideas it really seems like this mystery might one day be solved. The theory that the ship may have twisted or bucked and severed the power cables to the radar is highly plausible and yet I never heard that from anyone else. Even Capt. Darrell was surprised by it. In fairness, his research on the damage inflicted to the radars seems equally as plausible. Thank you for this, I can't wait for the next one,
When I see captain Darrell, I click.
dang Tommy...that don't sound too healthy, you should get that "click" checked out
Another great episode.
These are addicting to watch!
Thanks again.
It was common knowledge that the Fitzgerald was on it's last
Leg. One of my best friends was working in the dry dock
In Duluth/Superior when the
Fitz came in for repairs. There
Was I obvious cracking on the
Interior hull. Instead of making
Expensive repairs and losing
Money the ship owners decided she was good for one
More run. All about dollars and
Greed.
@@billbertagnoli4226 it’s a shame that a bunch of desk jockeys make these kind of decisions , playing god with so many lives on the lakes.
My mom remembers going from sturgeon bay down to manitowac to pick up my grandfather when they would come in for winter layup, usually on or around the 23rd of Dec each year.know these crews are on the water from early march until the locks close.
When I lived in Marquette I had friends who worked on the ships
To make money to buy a house.
They talked about how demanding
It was to be on an ore boat for
Months at a time. A special
Breed of men.
Great video love song even sang at karaoke before its long!
Record your karaoke version...we'll use it next time! HMM
Always wait with anticipation for a new posting from the History Mystery Man, especially if it's a session with Captain Darrell Walton!
Thank you for your incredible videos, your amazing work is keeping the light of the 29 men and captain Darrell's father memory alive. Merry Christmas from Northern Ireland.
I love the info that you guys keep finding. Hope that you both have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year! Best Wishes from Memphis, TN!~
This is the reason I love your videos! New information comes out and tells more of the story. I really really hope that you are able to interview more family members and friends of the crew members from the fitz, the Anderson and the ford during the storm that sank the fitz!!!!
If you distinguished gentlemen ever do a "live" presentation, I would love to attend. Thank you so very much for sharing your insight, knowledge etc.
May you indeed have a Very Blessed Holiday Season! (to all survivors of the "Big Fitz too!) May her crew R.I.P.
My grandfather Jack Arbter was the fleet engineer for Columbia when the Fritz was being designed and built, first ship on the Great Lakes with an all welded hull.
She had a good run until they loaded to much for the storm sh sailed into, Sad but that’s why she sank, she wasn’t doomed from the start .
This is some fascinating stuff. Great discussion, UA-cam just recommended it to me, I'll have to watch the other parts.
Thanks...we appreciate you! HMM
Merry Christmas HMM & Capt Darrell! Another great video with a lot of info to digest. The fact that the problems with her keel could have dated back to her construction and her launch is interesting. Regardless of the cause or causes here is no doubt in my mind that the Fitz had serious structural issues way before she sank. I wonder if improper loading could have also taken it's toll on the Fitz? I have heard in other videos and even from a person that works on a freighter that a ship's hull can crack/ break from uneven loading.
Also, the radar problems you mentioned are noteworthy. Maybe the loss of the radars wasn't just due to the storm. However, I'm most intrigued by about the Fitz's problems that caused Capt. McSorley to want to "throttle back" well before the worst part of the storm.Hope to hear more about that, if there is any info out there. Looking forward to next video. Thanks again guys.
Btw HMM I never knew until this video that you worked on the Nautica Queen, that's cool, always thought you mostly or only worked on tugs.
Thanks Gregg...I appreciate your continual support. The subject of improper loading comes up in the next video. Yes...I ran the Queen when it was sold...took it to Cleveland from Toledo, and than ran it there for three years. It was a fun job...got to be with people, passengers and got to go home every night...a real treat. Thanks again my friend...and Merry Christmas! HMM
No problem at all HMM! I appreciate the time and effort you (and Capt. Darrell in this case) put into the videos. The amount of research Capt. Darrell has put into the Fitz is amazing and it's good he is presenting all the facts and scenarios that could have contributed to her sinking. Don't let the rude and "smart" comments (even if it's only a few) people post affect what you do. Like you say "keep on keeping on". And good to know you enjoyed your time running the Queen. I can imagine it was a lot different than working on the tugs. Looking forward to the next video!
The smashed bow would be evidence of a collision with the lake bottom.
Absolutely! That's why we know it didn't just break in half and fall...because the bow plowed a true path through the Superior lake bottom floor. Thanks...HMM
Love the videos you and captain darrell make. Im watchin from my home in maine
👍👍👍👍 interesting info brought to light...see you on the next installment.
.. thanks feller's🎄👍👍👊
Another great conversation about the Mighty Fitz. Thanks for keeping her memory alive and remembering those that were lost. I appreciate your efforts into learning from things that went wrong so we don't repeat the same mistakes in the future. No one is trying to point a finger here and blame someone, only trying to make sure that this never happens again. Hopefully technology and training continue to advance to protect the men and women on the freshwater seas.
Good information, thanks Cap.
Thank you Capt. Darrell. Lord bless you and yours. Lord bless and care for the souls of the mighty Fitz. May they rest in peace including your uncle Grant. HMM great job. May you both have a peaceful Christmas.
Thanks- New and pertinent information Very explanatory, I spent 4 years fishing the oceans and twisted keel on launch makes a LOT of sense-
Look forward to the next part.
I wonder if there was an Anderson on the Arthur M Anderson on the night that the Edmund Fitzgerald sank? How do you find out the names of the crew of the Arthur M Anderson on November 9 and 10?
Her keel was not fit right… the ship wiggled…. Bad welding and TOO MUCH HARD PUSHING IN BAD WEATHER!!
Fascinating can’t wait for part two
Thanks...always appreciated. HMM
I think it's pretty obvious that negligence was common in regards to certain things. How long after the war were oceanic T2 tankers sailing? What's the 'real' condition of current rail road track across the country? There's good reason to keep asking questions. Great video as usual!
Any accident involves links in a chain and it takes one one more of those links to fail.. Capt Darrell continues to find those missing broken links in this particular case well done Sir! and Thanks HMM for this latest episode!
May God rest the souls of the Fitzgerald’s captain and his crew and may he continue comfort the family members left behind by this terrible tragedy…..🌸🌸🌹🌹🌹🌸🌸🌹🌹🌹🌹🌸🌸🌸
Awesome...this new information has me even more intrigued then ever...great jobs fellas..I'm looking forward to the next video...I'm happy that the information was shared about the welding rods, and what not being crammed between the ribs of the hull...I watched a video where Red spoke about the times he was there when they installed the stern, and bow thrusters..he said there was all kinds of garbage they used to stuff under the ribs and keel of the Fitz...a local news affiliate did a piece with a welder for the Fitz..he said he re-welded in port holes because the portholes popped out during heavy seas
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah! 🪕🏴☠️ my two favorites dropping some video greatness on this wonderful Saturday! Cpt Darrell and Cpt Don! Just came out to sand some framing for a chair I’m making my wife. Just fired up the ol pipe 😎 kick on UA-cam and here we go! Wonderful night! Bowl will be that much better 🙏✊
9:12 LOOK at the pilot house. The rim that goes above the windows, at the very top right. It’s all been smashed down like a wet hat.
It would have taken considerable force to do that. The amount of water needed to cause all that buckling, coming down on her more or less straight from above! To me that looks like the handiwork of a mother of a rogue wave, certainly enough to do the whole ship in.
Could the cargo have shifted forward when the wave hit from behind driving the bow down?
A real possibility for sure...which would drive the bow down...too far down, unfortunately. Thanks Lloyd. HMM
Love these videos!
Thank you, HMM and Captain Darrell!
Read: 'The Night the Fitz Went Down' - Hugh Bishop, Captain Dudley Paquette, a thorough and fascinating recounting. Fine book.
That ship had severe problems. Shortly thereafter, her nearly new, by laker standards, sister ship was scrapped.
👍..Just read it...seems to sum the whole thing up well
They don't call them the Great lakes for nothing . I lived on the lakes and rivers i learned to swim in 6 foot waves . The lakes are more dangerous than the oceans. They'll throw at you in a second what takes the ocean an hour to brew . Many great men live next to an rest eternal in these waters . The fits and her story I pray they are never forgotten. Children should be taught these invaluable stories, and way of life . OSHA says there are no accidents which in fact is true . Thank you for this interview, and guys coming forward.
Thank you both for the many hours of hard work and research devoted to this haunting mystery. God bless you both and the families of those brave men who were lost that cold, terrible, stormy night. Merry Christmas to those who celebrate Christmas and Happy Holidays for those who don't. Stay safe good people. Teri Woolum LeFevers.
Gosh, the problems the Fitz had just keep piling up. I always thought that was a very violent launch and have always wondered when it smashed into that wall if it had sustained any damage. Thank you fellas for digging up all this information, very interesting!
@@danielmcfadden1 much like my peterbilt semi truck a money pit.
USCG like the DOT with trucks should enforce weight restrictions according to the weight limits set by design
Excellent statement!
Love these videos so much
I don’t know about them just “eye balling” to see if the keel was straight. They didn’t have lasers. But, I am sure they used other mechanical means to assure a straight line.
Yes, 1957 technologies.
Could a big wave have damaged the radar more during the storm.
The damage occurred earlier in the year!
When you start building anything with steel and you weld you cause stress fracture and as it ages and it gets more. As with a ship that is getting hit with water and stress from other things like heat and cold the more wear and tear till it breaks. Am sure there was so many stress fractures and they new it as the ship was getting older and when it was inspected it was getting worse. How many times a year they do that i don't know. Bottom line it comes down to money. They just used her to long till she broke in half.
I've never heard in any of these discussions , the fact that the Fitz was cut in half and lengthened at Fraser Shipyard in Superior. The men at Fraser said the keel was in horrible condition with welding rods, nuts and bolts, etc found in between the keel plates. They said the Fitz was always loaded to the Max and run hard. She often had the record yearly tonnage on the Lakes.
Sorry, she was never cut in half, nor lengthened. The Anderson was lengthened. You can take that to the bank.
Thank you! I stand corrected. But certainly the men at Fraser were down at the keel making repairs on a keel in poor condition.
They knew the truth!@@garybensman1358
I've heard the Fitz was scheduled to be lengthened at Fraser the winter of 1975-76.
Captain Darrell for President! Enjoy the stories of the Great Lakes.
Or at least Secretary of State! Thanks...HMM
In my youth I was fortunate to see placemats from the gallery that a man had give to my step grandfather I didn't realize the significance of see these placemats and later as being a trombone player in high school marching band we we practicing the same night the Fitz sank 😭
One thing is certain she was rode to her breaking point,that’s interesting about the radar being knocked out a few times that summer. Did they just do a fix or completely get a brand new radar for the fitz? And all that banging to her hull combined with all the stress,it just all adds up. Overtime the more use something has it speeds up it’s deteriorating process. I still say there’s something else behind this sinking,keep looking more into it Captains Darrol and mr mystery and I will as well.
Gosh, really seems like she was doomed from the start. Interesting, as always. Thanks Captain Darrell and HMM ⚓️🚢❤️
HMM and Captain Walton, Thank You From the Bottom Of My Heart For All That You Do. What Amazing New and Interesting Information! Looking Forward To the Next Part Of the Mystery. The Both Of You Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2025 and Be Safe Out There! BTW I Seen An Old News Cast From November 26,1995 From WTOL 11 Vault On the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald. Captain Walton Had Great Information Back Then.
My hair was darker and shorter back then! Ha ha ha. Thanks for watching and Merry Christmas!
Does anyone notice fitzs hull flex and twist after its launch
I don't buy that the keel was laid haphazardly with a good enough attitude, they had access to highly accurate transits and knew how to use them, however there seems to have obviously been a flaw in the hull. I seem to recall from somewhere that loading practice's could have stressed the hull if it wasn't done evenly allowing it to bend and over time could have led to cracking and eventual failure. I was 15 and remember that was one wicked storm.
1957 technologies were no where close to what we have now!
@darrellwalton938 you mean the same era of engineers that built the SR71 and started the space program.
I used to “track” the SR71 on radar in the late 60s for the Air Force.
Hey Daryl, Merry Christmas & happy New Year 🎉🎉,,I think about these men on the Fitz Every year,,Great video
Thanks for watching! Hope your Christmas was great. Have a great blessed Happy New Year!
I remember it being said that it was loaded down and sitting deeper in the water then it should have been for that time of year. Has anyone else heard that before?
Watch our previous videos that explain the whole sordid process on “Load Line Reductions! Thanks for watching!
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you & Capt Darrell HMM. On to business now. I'm finding this very interesting you two. I like learning new stuff & every time you two get together to talk about the Mighty Fitz and all the new information, Capt Darrell is getting sounds like the Fitz was a mess to begin with. I wonder if she was doomed from day 1. Jind of sounds like it to me. And THANK YOU BOTH for carrying so much to revisit this tragedy every year. On the video of the fitz launching was filmed by A. M. Anderson the same person who has his name on the Fitz's sister ship & his wife I presume founded the cathedral up there. Now that's some spooky stuff. Especially since the Anderson waste last one to seethe Fitz & the last ship Vapt Mc Sorly talked too before the Fitz sank (Capt Darrel, HMM, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
I have never noticed the flex in the launch footage before I guess Cause I never thought to look for it but it's insane! Incredible content guys, a history major I love your channel. Great Sunday morning coffee content!
Big Fitz was over loaded 1 to many times.
Drinking some fine whiskey and a cigar while i listen fellows ! keep the video's coming !
Captain Paquettes book is a “must read” for any Fitzgerald aficionado. I believe he pretty much sums things up by stating what sunk the Fitz was negligence. The further one digs, the more apparent Captain Paquette was correct. I had no idea, nor can remember reading anything about the Fitz having radar issues the prior summer. With that in mind, the issues already confirmed about not being able to close hatches, letting boats run deeper in the winter months, loose keel, etc etc etc. Captain Paquette was 100% correct. I still would like to know whose palms got greased to have the winter load lines changed. To me, that’s pretty darned stupid knowing what happens come November.
I just got that book for Xmas and read it.. I believe as well , that Capt Paquette summed it..along with red burgner... although both were fairly critical of McSorley,I tend to think he was just burnt out.. regardless,he was responsible for the ship and everybody...
@ while nobody really wants to speak badly of the dead, I agree with you on the fact that McSorely was indeed responsible for the lives of his crew. Every captain is when they disembark under questionable terms. For instance, if I pilot a boat, let somebody ride on the bow of the boat in rough seas, and that person flies out of the boat? You bet I’m responsible. McSorely was one facet of many things that ended up with the Fitzgerald’s sinking. For instance, weather forecasts are a lot better now than they were in 1975. Today, you see masters taking shelter rather than venturing out (There still are exceptions, surprisingly! Watch Marine Traffic when you know the lakes are stirred up). Even at that, he and Cooper THOUGHT they could take an alternative to let the shore of Canada be their lee in the upcoming storm. Unfortunately, that was a bad gamble.
@@ripperace 👍👍👍right on, 100%..you have read the book,so I'm not even gonna paraphrase that,.... we all will , apparently,never know what exactly went on those couple of days,but the years/ months/ days leading up to that point, paint a fairly clear picture of what unfortunately happened...at least some of the blame has to point to the captain,but he was potentially pushed hard by corporate greed and demand to perform the way he did... the whole thing,is such a sorrowful saga...they almost made it to whitefish..but anyway, happy 2025 to you 👍👍👍👊
@@elroyelblander6277 in any industry, things get shuffled under to be taken care of “later”. Or regulations get changed for one reason or another. There’s no doubt in my mind that the company pushed for more. How else would they line their pockets? It’s also been proven that the Fitz was in need of some much needed repairs that got “shuffled”. To my understanding, it is ultimately up to the captain whether the ship sails, or goes in for repairs. We know McSorley was a company man. We also know that at times in heavy weather, the Fitz had a tendency to make him question its condition. (See anything written about the Fitz’s “wiggling thing” McSorley talked about.)
Happy New Year to you as well!
@@ripperace 👍👍👍👍👊
There are ZERO cables that run from the radar's back aft. It's a direct hard wire job from the radar antenna down through the roof of the pilot house to the radar stands, in the pilothouse . The water getting into the unit can only happen if who ever worked on it weather it was Sperry the actual radar people or Benson Eclectic contracted out of Superior,WI. Didn't seal it up right enough with silicon caulking
Thanks Keith. Stay safe and Merry Christmas!