What is going on with DRAMA QUEEN?!?
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- #manga #mangapodcast #mangarecommendations
White Grey Black Weekly Manga Podcast for December 2nd - December 8th, 2024
Drama Queen 1 & 2 - Kuraku Ichikawa
One Piece - 1133 - Eiichiro Oda
Manga news
One more thing - Wind and Truth and The Bazar
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Funny watching this after chapter 3 is out
Interesting discussion on Drama Queen. Frankly, the discourse around the manga has been as interesting as the manga itself, especially contrasting Japanese views on the manga vs the west. It being extremely polarizing is not a west only phenomena, its obviously more pronounced here, but theres a fair bit of disagreement in japan as well. neither place is a monolith.
Im with you that authorial intent hasnt been foregrounded enough for me to make a definitive claim about what it is attempting to be, but i think its a fascinating insight into the state of manga criticism that people have already made judgments either way. Some are certain its xenophobic propaganda, others cite that its anti colonial, anti capitalist. Its satirizing reactionary politics. It could also be nihiliistic, ideologically incoherent or surrealist. You spoke on save the cat screenwriting vs getting us to sympathize with the protagonist, which is interesting, but ch 1 also ends with them killing and eating with a kind of psychopathic surrealist fervour. The depiction is both sympathetic, a working class downtrodden lead, the scene of them reminiscing about the sky before , but also frames them as deranged and perhaps unreliable narrators. Its deliberately ambiguous to some to allow for multiple readings. Or just poorly executed satire to others.
So i reserve judgement, but since you bring up authors intent, art isnt required to foreground authorial intent, spoonfeed its audience, especially in the avant garde. These rules exist more so in sanitized screenplay type writing and mainstream forums, it can withhold intent for artistic purposes. What has this manga done to deserve this benefit of the doubt? The mangakas prior works. He has won multiple awards for prior one shots. His one shot "iki suru koto sura yurasanai" was translated on mangadex, and its a yuri about a women who was rejected by her best friend, and attempts to become a comedian, as thats the vocation of her friends boyfriend. It subject material involves heteronormativity, comedic catharsis and purpose. There are other one shots on gun control and other politically charged topic in his repertoire as well.
Does this mean drama queen will be avant garde subversive satire, defamiliarizing and with ambiguous intent to make drama queens of us all? No idea, but its worth waiting to render judgement i reckon.
And You brought up Kagurabachi at the end and I agree that it is constantly improving. Contrasting it to Gachiakuta is interesting too, as they both have similar tones but are very different in their focus. Not just the frequency of their fights, but their emphasis on different things. Kagura is very plot and theme focused, gachiakuta is worldbuilding and character focused. Very complimentary works.
One thing ill add with Kagurabachi is that it is not only getting a lot of commercial appeal in japan, but also quite a few critical accolades now too. it was nominated for the shogakukkan awards, which is one of the more prestigious awards in JP, and came in 6th at kono manga as well. These arent just popularity contests like next manga, they are voted on by critics/panels etc. Works nominated are not just mainstream hits, but those considered to have artistic merit as well. Critical spaces in jp talk about its themes, political allegory etc. The blades being a stand in for weapons of mass destruction, chihiros dad being oppenheimer in this world, authorial intent, power, legacy, how it should be managed etc. Its also talking about government war crimes and such. Its also just a really cool battle shonen too, but i think it balances these things really well and is getting recognized for it.
Anyways, id missed a few of your last episodes so i thought id catch up and spam you guys with a wall of text. See yall next time!
I'll have to check out the authors' other works because they sound like they may reveal a bit more. Right now, I'm on team "poorly executed satire" or "right wing propaganda," lol.
Just because JK Rowling didn't intend for Harry Potter to be a bit racist and show her inner politics doesn't mean that Cho Chang isn't a racist stereotype. The same thing here is what I'm feeling so far. The author isn't trying to be directly political, but it feels like it's bleeding through. A lot.
I'd pick Gachi over KGB any day of the week in baiscally every aspect, the writing is better, there are real mysteries, the characters actually change and grow better and more consistently, the art is higher quality with more style and personality, the ideas and themes are more well thought out, but KGB is a lot of fun, has some sick spreads and is improving. I find the art a little hurried in KGB, esp the characters' designs for background or tertiary characters, and the allegory in KGB is 8th grade level at best. But I'm here for fish magic katana Batman versus the 7 deadly exes of his dad.
@@weeklymangaPodcast Fair enough, like I said I'm reserving judgement On Drama Queen because of the authors prior work, but theres enough there to grant some benefit of the doubt but enough to be skeptical as well. The manga itself is conflicted, whether this is intentional or not We will see.
I mean you're entitled to your opinion on Gachi vs Bachi , but I avoided using "which is better" language because it mostly devolves into an elaboration of taste. Not to say that isnt useful in itself, but it wasnt really my point. I like them for different reasons and both are much more than they seem. They focus on very different things from a writing perspective. Kagurabachi has very brisk and assured plotting and pacing for example, and its themes are incorporated well into its fights. Having a focus on themes doesnt just mean "deep themes" , it also means good synergy and integration. With Kagurabachi its more how it turns its style into substance.
Gachiakuta is more deliberate in its pacing, and this works for the kind of manga its trying to be. with a focus on worldbuilding, and being a much longer form story I suspect. They both have interesting ideas, just very different. One may seem to do this more through its plot points and the other through its characters, but these arent mutually exclusive. Kagurabachis themes of legacy and power works well for its plot driven narrative, just as gachiakutas elaboration on sentimental value , dispossession and psychology works better for a character and world driven story . Neither is deep literature if we are being pedantic, but thats neither here nor there and is unnecessarily trivializing to both when they both clearly have something to say.
My point about kagurabachi was just that it was getting recognition in critical circles in Japan, just like gachiakuta has done, just like other battle series like chainsaw man, yomi no tsugai etc have.
Hey man, this is Gautam from the podcast. Your wall of text was very well written and insightful and generally fun to read. I appreciate the context surrounding their other works, as well as your question "What has this manga done to deserve this benefit of the doubt?" To somewhat answer from my perspective, I try to give a charitable read until proven wrong. I'll have to review the one shots you mentioned, but based on what you said, it leads me to believe that this might in-fact be satire or criticism of the skewed mindsets of xenophobic people (BUT I STILL CAN'T TELL FOR SURE AFTER CHAPTER 3 LOL). It's so on the nose in pointing out the MCs backwards world views, but then again, this could be reasonable in the eyes of a bigot - which makes it hard to parse the authorial intent. Either way, we can grab out popcorn and watch from a distance. Thanks again for the comment, I truly appreciate how thoughtful it was. Lookin' forward to chatting again soon!
@@gooooooople Oh hey Gautam! I was wondering if you were in the comments or not as Im usually responding to Bruce as hes hosting the show, but good to hear from you as well. I appreciate the maturity and insight of your takes in general as well, and im also a fellow Yotsuba! lover lol. The dynamic you two have really works as you have overlapping but contrasting takes, but also different ways of approaching media. The thing I generally like is having a sense of a persons tastes and their argumentation being consistent and thoughtful, so even if i disagree with someone, I get a sense of why they like or dislike what they do, which is very clear with the both of you .
Yea the discussion you both had on Drama Queen came across as open minded, I could tell you were wrestling with the text and the context surrounding it. Its funny you mention chapter 3, because the discourse has evolved once more. I try to look into Japanese reception on jump+ as it evolves, and the reception is still as conflicted as the text itself. Chapter 3 is interesting, because it shoehorned itself into a quasi typical shonen template, working for an organization but one that further indulges the protags deranged views, which muddies authorial intent even more lol. People are still debating if this is the text endorsing the views of the protags or not, both in the west and JP. The last thing I expected was for it to become formulaic.
But you brought up a great point in the discussion about ambiguous intent in authorship, both in the podcast and in your comment. Theres this thing im sure youve heard of called Poes law which states,
“without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views.”
Debate about whether this even applies and its origin aside, there being sufficient ambiguity makes this poor satire to some, as it doesn’t foreground authorial intent sufficiently. Others will say avant garde art isnt obligated to foreground this, and can disclose it when it sees fit.That people need intent foregrounded explicitly is also interesting in the context of a weekly manga, where you have to wait and see and don’t have the full picture.
And this is where critique is very fair. Some say If this was actually pro nationalist xenophobic propaganda, it would more explicitly depict the aliens as doing overtly evil things, and the protagonists less unhinged, but the thing is, there is also an element of surrealist dissociation. Even if the protagonists portrayal is negative, as in they are depicted as psychopaths, the aesthetic surrealism desensitizes the impact and instead functions as a form of vicarious catharsis for those predisposed towards discriminating against those who are different to them. The framing of a downtrodden and discarded back story for the protagonist in conjunction with the tone eliciting a paradoxical sympathy. Even deliberate ambiguity needs some clarity in theming, subtext and motifs.
In simpler terms, satire handled poorly can become a calling card for unsavory views, as much as any intentionally xenophobic text. Moreover, if it goes over the heads of many, avant garde/subversive/satirical intent devolves into nihilistic pastiche, where people project their views onto the text. Even without explicit intent, the subconscious views of a writer can seep into the text too, or have unintended consequences, both in interpretation and reception. Then theres arguments in academic literary critic circles about intent even mattering, death of the author/reader response theory etc lol. Thats the most fascinating part of this to me, its almost an expose on the state of the critical language surrounding manga.
Sorry, i was just thinking out loud and ended up spamming you with another wall of text, but i appreciate the prompt lol. Its a tricky thing to navigate though, especially considering most consuming manga skew younger in the west, (im a slightly older fellow coming from a literature background ) so I try not to be too judgmental. Its important to be critical of media that does endorse perverse views , but also open minded enough to give it space to prove itself otherwise.
But I agree, sitting back with popcorn is probably a more succinct way of putting it lol.
@@fend-iy1yh Don't ever apologize for these comments, I thought your literary analysis was really insightful. You said it better than I could. (I'm mostly playing calvinball out here lol). Your literature background shows!
I completely agree, and think citing Poe's Law here is appropriate. Bruce and I will keep up with this and report back, it's in this nebulous racist mystery zone, and that just makes it fun to talk about.
"manga skew younger in the west" we are in our 30s now, and this becomes the trickiest part. The same things certainly don't resonate the same way they used to when I was younger. I find it harder to engage with things I don't find uniquely engaging or fundamentally strong. As such, I bounce off a lot more than I used to.
Wooo a fellow Yotsuba-head out here. You get it brother. I tend to get bored with a lot of SoL series, but Yotsuba feeds the soul. And thanks for the very kind compliments on our cadence and communication styles. I agree, in that I tend to value understanding the "why" of peoples preferences. It has made me come around on many things I thought I didn't like initially.
If you could give me some advice - We do manga book clubs where we read through a series week to week. Do you have any recs you think would make for a good read along? If we don't pick it, I'd still be happy for a rec, as I'm always happy to pick up good manga. Any genre is fine, as long as it delivers on what it is trying to do.
So far, for me... this is American Psycho, the manga.
It's dark comedy from the raw and unfiltered view of the main character. it does not endorse anything, it just shows you what happens, form their perspective and their thoughts. You just have to experience it and think of it what you will.
And at this point, this can go either way. Some characters could change their views, SOMEHOW at SOMEPOINT, and realize the aliens aren't all bad OR they could continue to have animosity based on their personal experiences.
And the Aliens can turn out to be completely innocent OR end up really being proven as conspirators that have orchestrated the whole thing and are exploring the sympathy of humans somehow. Either way, I'm here for it, but I'd be interested in a mix of those. Imagine if the Aliens, at the top of the chain, REALLY ARE evil masterminds that are using and abusing the meteor narrative somehow and the protagonists are the ones to stand up to them as the "heroes" of the story, BUT... these heroes still DID kill tons of seemingly innocent aliens for no reason at all. Like, we've seen those 5 aliens on chapter 2, right? They were just... walking. They didn't do anything. So I think it be interesting if it expands the story and goes into crazier routes.
Personally, I don't care about the politics. I'm aware that a lot of Japanese people may have their opinions on topics like "modern audiences" and immigrants, and I do recognize some parallels, but I believe a story can portray these parallels without necessarily having a "message". Specially in more mature works, where the author can assume the reader already have their opinions on certain subjects. So in the end, I take it as a fictional story and ONLY that. And personally I hope it can prove to be ONLY that somehow, just so people would stop having so many inflammatory takes or cancellation attempts, cus I'm really liking it for what it is.
EDIT: considering this was posted before Chapter 3, I think it's safe to say that, yeah, this manga is really not for you guys. lol
And that's fine. I mean, clearly a lot of these subjects bother you guys, even if they're presented vaguely and ambiguously.
I am firmly of the opinion that this is simply NOT racist, even if the characters themselves are racist. But I can concede that a lot of this can offend people anyway.
The issue with your example of where the story could go in your 2nd paragraph is that it plays exactly into the stereotype of the "dangerous other." The idea that anyone coming into your land is a bad person or evil or wants to take your job or they are a deplorable ect ect, we talked about this in the ep. Which is why there is no winning with this series. And from what I've heard about the later chapters, it seems more like it's xenophobia peeking through the authors' works more than work directly presenting xenophobic warriors as super heroes and righteous people. The lesser of 3 or 4 evils, but still not a good look.
It's fine that you don't care about the politics, some of us care about the way the world goes and will always push back on xenophobia, and racism, and other injustices, and if that bothers you then this isn't the podcast for you.
@@weeklymangaPodcast The "Dangerous other" stereotype is very clear, I'm not arguing with that. But things can be portrayed without being endorsed.
Thinking the aliens being bad in this story means that every one from outside is also evil is a little ridiculous if you ask me, and anyone following that logic is either already racist or unable to separate fiction from reality.
What I was suggesting is a moraly gray direction for the story, in which YES, OBVIOUSLY you shouldn't hold animosity towards a group just because they're different, but still, in this particular story, there could be corrruption or malice within the alien society. SIMPLY because that would make the story interesting, and THERE ARE ways to have it both ways.
The fact the story already eludes to these conspiracy theories could be a misdirect, forshadowing OR just a depiction of the characters hate for the aliens and could be left for interpratation. It could go either way on that aspect, but for the characters, CLEARLY, as you guy have already pointed out yourselves, the characters have already shown their cracks. There are so many moments where they are portrayed HORRIBLY, both visually and contextually, and I'm sorry, these "dog whistles" do not cancel them out in anyway. So I'm certainly not taking their side morally and to me, is clear, you're not supposed to. There are people who will miss the point, sure, but I just think they're interesting.
I'm aware this podcast isn't for me, no offense, is not the content I go to, politicized or not. And hey, if you care about xenophobia and racism, that's great! You should, it sucks! And if you wanna discuss that in regards to this manga, go for it. It's fiction, but I can see value in dissecting it.
I didn't get a "we need to cancel this manga" kinda vibe from the video anyway, just an opinionated look, so it's fine. That is the only stance I'm actively against, because that does nothing besides making people angry. It won't stop people from thinking the way they do.
For an immigrant to be a citizen of a country, one must follow its rules, laws, and customs. The Aliens in Drama Queen didn't immigrate though, they invaded.
Drama Queen's story isn't new, usually Aliens in Manga are depicted as invaders, even the kid ones like Kerroro Gunsou as an example. There are exceptions though. There's a manga that's probably closest to Drama Queen in terms of storytelling is Shokuryou Jinrui and Shokuryou Jinrui Re:velation, the concept is the same but the one eating who is reversed.
We are already in chapter 2 and this is just just my prediction. There are already hints that Nomamoto might probably be an Alien, probably the worst one since she looks like a human lol. Anyways just wanted to say keep in mind that we must always seperate reality and fiction, its best not draw parallels and judge, yeah to me its still too early to judge it wether its a good or bad manga.
I think this manga is a beautifully produced piece of reactionary media. Just the fact that the author got people to have hour and a half long podcasts debating whether they support the viewpoints of their protagonists or condemn them means it worked. I think that the success of this series depends on how long the author can keep their own viewpoints vague and keep people debating whether or not they support it. I think the moment it is confirmed the aliens are good or bad is the moment the series loses its draw. It's Schrodinger's racist. The draw comes from wanting to see which side the coin flip lands on.
Kinda insane that you called it both "beautifully produced reactionary media" and also the author "Schrodinger's racist". The funny thing about you comparing it to Schrodinger's cat is that, what most people misunderstand about the cat is not that we don't know what state it's in until we look, it's that we ACTUALLY have to assume that the cat is BOTH dead AND alive before we know fully. So in this case, you're saying that the series is both racist and not racist, which, imo, basically defaults to racist, which is the problem with it distilled very well imo.