This was a fantastic discussion. Sadly I don't expect any changes from our bonehead policy makers and school administrators with regards to masking and other mandates. Keep up the great work, Peter et al!
@@Derbnage Go watch 2000 Mules movie trailer on Rumble. Ballot harvesting on video in 5 battleground states and the criminals are on video stuffing ballots into the Zucker-bucks paid for ballot drop boxes. One whistleblower in GA was paid $10 per ballot and he made $45,000 by harvesting 4,500 ballots between the 2020 general election and the senate run-off. The Dems are busted now, no way of getting out of this one. The coverup by MSM, Dems, Rinos is also criminal and they should be fired or voted out of office.
Thee most enjoyable covid related session I’ve heard in 2 years. It actually made me feel physically and mentally relieved prior to going to sleep. Something about the delivery of the information, still facts and figures, but wrapped in a layer of fun and almost lightheartedness. Thanks Peter, ZDogg and Marty. Really appreciated.
I agree with everyone's comments on Dr. Monica Ghandi. I did enjoy with this podcast but I am still standing next to other doctors like Dr. Bavartih, Mccallough and Kory.
I’m a bit shocked after listening to what Monica says at around 1:10:00 regarding mask efficacy and the correction of the Bangladesh study. One might recall that this study initially found only a 9% reduction in symptomatic cov infections, which frankly is lackluster to begin with. So to hear that this study was reanalyzed and then corrected to demonstrate negligible effect is extremely shocking and frustrating. For TWO YEARS there was intense social and legal pressure to wear masks (the overwhelming type being cloth and surgical) and now we know it was all for naught… astoundingly wasteful… and perhaps an intentional deception… The most egregious aspect of this deceit, regarding mask efficacy in transmission reduction, is that it was insisted to be objective fact and completely supported by the Scientific Establishment. It is blatant misinformation like this and the corresponding demonization of the opposition (which it um turns out was completely correct in this regard) that has SO MANY citizens furious at the Power Structures. No disrespect to Monica, but even her answer demonstrates the disconnect between the Establishment and the People. Instead of answering your question outright, she gives a rather deflective, pedantic response that almost obscures the essential information- THAT MASKING DOES NOT REDUCE TRANSMISSION ON A POPULATION LEVEL. Considering that masking has been enforced since the beginning of the pandemic, this revelation should be an absolute bombshell, as it completely obliterates the mask narrative and exposes it as baseless!! Monica should be upset, the scientific community should be upset, and the global population should demand answers. This wasn’t an honest mistake by the Medical Complex and greater Power Structures, it was a worldwide deception that should never be forgotten.
I couldn't agree more. What frustrated me most is that when it became obviously the case, I immediately stopped wearing a mask and was demonized for it. I went out publicly, making every effort to smile and be as kind as I could, but people were largely shocked at my not wearing a mask. One person said I should go to prison, another wished someone would punch me in the face. Because we are so susceptible to symbolism and perceived social virtue, masks were the ultimate virtue cocktail that not wearing one symbolised 'not caring' in the view of many. I will never wear a false symbol of obedience and conformity in the name of science ever again, so long as my government demand it. They must provide evidence to back up their claims, and not use the scientific process in vein, or fall back on 'science' as if it's an outcome instead of a process. The way she defelcts to the vaccines with the same ferver makes me sceptical of her ability to descern any truth from data, as opposed to 'perceived truth from socially approved narratives'
Good talk. I think they went easy on Ghandhi on some points. She did seem to change positions on mandates or at least lessened her stance. She's still off on masks and can't decide what way to go. Peter pressed her on it a little to try to get her to admit she was talking in circles.
Coercion of any sort is a violation of medical ethics but to coerce because of the stated reason of hospitalization load without regard to an individual patients hospitalization risk is an even worse violation. People with this view of human rights, why you may be affable and pleasant, we are simply incompatible to live together and should break up the country.
Well, better late than never. And uhhh…one seemingly hilarious update at 1:24:30 - “…a very good study shows that those who’ve had two doses of vaccine have fewer long covid symptoms than those who’ve never had covid…” (but all-in-all very worthwhile). Have two requests/criticisms: (1) the question of whether vaccine is ever needed after covid infection is not really addressed, and (2) more discussion of vaccine adverse events needed.
Yeah it sounded like she was trying to say that v induced lc was psychosomatic. Just one more doctor denying the existence of lc. The medical community has completely failed. Failed due to arrogance. A little humility would have gone a long way. So angry as are so many thousands of others!
Totally agree. In addition would be interested to discuss, at least theoretical, long- term consequences of nearly-experimental vaccines, which nobody even can guess right now and stop being so short- sited, especially for younger population. Also, we should distinguish between healthy unvaccinated and "healthy" unvaccinated. They put in the same category overweight and nearly- alcoholics...
Great discussion, but wanted to clarify some points around the long COVID data-while vaccination remains a great measure in future-looking immunity, the lion’s share of data does not indicate it is a highly effective mechanism for the treatment of long COVID. As a long hauler myself (debilitatingly ill since April 2020), I have a vested interest in following the data closely, and the data consistently indicates that after vaccination most long haulers (around 60% or so, though it varies from study to study) report no change in symptoms. A split amongst the remainder either get better or get worse, and those numbers vary a bit from study to study, usually the getting worse cohort is slightly smaller than the gets better cohort, but both are significantly smaller than the about 60% or so that remain the same. It’s great if vaccinations protect looking forward in the prevention of future long COVID cases, but I think the information around treatment of current cases needs to be handled with greater diligence and care. First, we had to fight for our condition to be recognized. (For about a year I was told I simply had anxiety.) Now, we have to fight with an ever-swirling panel of experts across media that often mean well but have little direct reference for this highly individualized condition and the ever-changing landscape of data trying to be drawn from around what is largely still such a mysterious condition. Thank you all for your work!
The Canadian discussion hits home hard. I’m in Alberta, and am so thankful I’m not in Ontario, but also dream of living in Texas. Great discussion from yourself and your amazing guests.
Professor Mattias Desmet is the one who put out the theory of mass formation and wrote a book about it. I believe I found three UA-cam interviews last time I looked. He is quite compelling and brings sense to what is happening at this time, whether it fully applies or not. He explains it was at the basis of Nazi Germany and Stalin Russia, thus why Malone speaks of Nazi Germany.
Something doesn’t add up here. At about 1:43, they claim there was 1 death among 52,000 people in a study about omicron. If you divided the US population of 320,000,000 by 52,000, you get about 6,150. So by this logic, if every single person in the US was infected with omicron, just over 6,000 people would die from omicron in total. Yet 7 day average daily death rate from COVID in the US is over 2,300. How on earth does this make any sense? Sorry, this just blows up this whole discussion for me. To make such a seemingly bizarre statement detached from reality suggests something is really off with how they are assessing the situation.
@@bikeforfun no information is being added up, thought through, and assessed logically in America. Then my dogmatic friends and acquaintances throw the 'science card' in my face. WHAT SCIENCE?!?! But I do appreciate Peter Attia's effort here, to inform his listeners! And, loving all the comments from his mostly intelligent followers.
The problem I have with people who have so much anxiety that they are wearing two mask while playing golf alone, is that they probably view me as a evil person who is an immediate threat and less than human for not protecting them by wearing a mask. And if they feel that way about me, I expect them to do everything they can to make me comply to their opinion on masks, vaccines, testing, etc.
Fear is a mind killer. It has become a habit for them. They seem to protect their ego more than their children too. And I don’t like the pollution these so-called “parents” and “adults” create. But one can’t fight the stupid - feels quite evil to be honest. ‘Idiocracy’ is a great documentary! 😅
Retired nurse after 50 years and absolutely enjoyed this entire conversation. I am still trying to figure out what was meant by Peter’s “phosphorylated” Love listening to such intelligence - your hearts are all in the right place. Thank you !
I think he means "amped up" or "excited." Recall that a phosphorylated AMP or ADP is ATP, which is the cell's energy source. At least, that is my best guess on what he means.
1:55 he literally just explained the causes of this mass formation psychosis. (Which is not a garbage term, it is what it is) Social media has created massive polarity and radicalization of beliefs. The news media has ramped up the fear so much and it hypnotizes people.
The antiviral oral medication is NOT available yet. It’s formulary in our EMR now, as an order, but NOT available to general public. You can’t use this as a tool in your toolbox yet- YET!
If I remember right, it’s only potentially available for those with comorbidities-comorbidities often treated with medications contraindicated with the antiviral medication…
Can we PLEASE have a discussion about Taiwan’s approach!? They had a normal life through most of the pandemic without lockdowns, school closures, etc. It seems to me they have much better outcomes than Sweden.
I appreciate the thoughtful discourse in this discussion, as well as the comments, as the majority of them were also thoughtful. Thank you all. I was not expecting to be suddenly brought to tears, though. When Marty mentioned the number of studies being done on masks -- something I already knew as I think he's mentioned it or alluded to it before -- that did it. As someone with kids in both college and high school, it boggles my mind that we have instituted these policies with no regard for whether they even work, never mind the long-term implications of their possible (probable) detriment. At this point in the pandemic/endemic, we should have multiple peer-reviewed studies that show their efficacy in student populations. Do I dare to dream that my kids might be able to finish their school year without masks? That they might be able to have conversations with their peers, teachers, and professors, sing in choir, play in orchestra, attend sports contests, and move about the community without a mask?
Along those lines, as I dare to dream, I am presented with the issue of quarantines. When masks go away, will we change the requirements for quarantining? My teenager fears that no masks => more sickness (however mild) => more absences => school admin panic & reinstitution of mask policies. Can we get to a point where being sick with covid is like any other respiratory virus -- you stay home if you have a fever and/or incessant cough, but otherwise you are free to attend school?
I’m still listening and hope this gets brought up. But I understand completely Monica’s concern about so many unvaccinated people ending up in hospital. However could we discuss the available early treatment protocols besides vaccination and how they could have and continue to provide varying ranges of efficacy towards reducing severe adverse affects from coronavirus. Isn’t it also true that we could have not had a mandate for vaccines BUT rather have the vaccines available to everyone, and simultaneously all of the early treatment protocols available and this combination would likely have drastically reduced severe hospitalisation and icu admissions during different stages of the pandemic.
Totally agree, early treatment protocol's and natural immunity and not covered nearly enough. One of the only people I know who has not got COVID in the last 2 years has 3-4 co-morbidities and you might wonder why. It is because he has been on high doses of hydroxychloroquine for a few years, I wonder if there is any correlation, ya think... There are over 50 studies now that show early treatment with ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are very effective along vitamin supplements such as C 1000mg, D3 5000iu, Quercetin 1000mg and Zinc 50mg.
Great discussion. The section on "agendas" and our current climate of incessant tribalism made me think of a great book: "How to Have Impossible Conversations" by Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay. It's a very practical guide to foster a climate of civility, connection, and empathy. Much needed now, I think.
It would be interesting to see information collated in regard to reactions to the vaccine which result in prolonged joint pain ,fatigue and cognitive issues. I'm not opposed to vaccines but it seems that a scientific approach which would determine the safest application to those who may have these responses would increase compliance.
after modern a - i developed joint pain in fingers, knuckles, wrists and toes - in addition to racing heart, high bp and chest pain. never had this stuff happen before -,was a healthy 56 yr old male; now, who knows
I concur with Dr Peter about his t-shirt slogan. I'm clearly worried about if/when being diagnosed with Covid and needing medical treatment finding a doctor who would actually treat me or my family with everything that is available. In my discussions with friends, one of my constant worries is available therapeutics not being made available because of the political leaning or fear of reprisal from the treating physician. I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed both podcasts. I wish I could mandate that everyone in academia and government would be made to sit down and listen to both!
The reason for the repulsion over discussing natural immunity is rooted in the Great Barrington Declaration and herd immunity. There’s a path between the two dots, but those are the two dots… Herd immunity -> natural immunity.
I find it strange that Peter & Monica didn’t address the asymptomatic transmission with respect to masks, and how the main reason for masks (to my understanding) has been to prevent the mask-wearer from transmitting to others.
Actually, technically it is presymptomatic transmission which refers to persons who are not yet symptomatic, but will be symptomatic as their illness develops. Asymptomatic persons who never develop symptoms during their illness have actually been shown not to spread the virus. This differentiation (pre vs a) is often not discussed/realized.
Phenomenal discussion. One thing I loved is the discussion of "data" as opposed to "science." The distinction is relevant. Science is a tool to acquire data, and interpret data. It isn't data by itself. Yet "science" is referred to so frequently now as a more of a proxy for policy, rather than the tool that it is. Data is really what should be driving these discussions, and I appreciate that you all relied heavily on data for the pro/cons in the arguments. Also really enjoyed the religion comparisons. Very insightful. Excellent job. Very impactful analyses.
Given the lack of clarity due to the various hands that are in the cookie jar - could you please make the show notes for part 1 & 2 available for free? The amount of valuable information that isincluded in these podcasts that could help educate others would be much appreciated!
I wish I could talk to you guys… I had Covid I am sure I did in late February early March 2020. I tested negative for flu and everything else. My husband and I both had it and we could not even walk to the kitchen and we were devastated. I was pregnant at 6 wks at the time. I ended up having a miscarriage at 12 Wks. I am a first responder and my EMS partner went out in May 2021 with Covid and I did not test but I felt bad for 2 1/2 days and I was fine after that no I did not get tested bc she was positive. She and I had our “antibody” tests done and we were sky high. I am so angry at the info being given…I do t know what to do!!! I listen to you guys all the time but the MSM does not disseminate any of this information!! WHY????? I just wish people would talk to “boots on the ground” !!! I am horrible at articulating what I’m thinking about so excuse my rant. And no, I do not expect anyone to get back with me.
While you are talking about vaccine mandates, I keep waiting to hear you consider those who already had and recovered from natural Covid infection in last 2 years. OK, thanks.. just heard it.👍
Peter should interview virologists Dr Vincent Racaniello and Dr Amy Rosenfeld from Cornell University and the podcast ‘This Week in Virology”. The only podcast on viruses worth listening to.
Excellent podcast as was the the last Covid podcast. I’m a Cdn living in BC under different restrictions compared to Ontario and Quebec. However I have had thoughts similar to yours with respect to how absurd the restrictions there have been. I haven’t previously given thought to the analogy of the comparison to fascism but it rings true because how does an unvaxxed Cdn escape from Canada when you can’t get on a plane, train, boat/ferry, or bus to get out of the country? It’s very disturbing and I appreciated your comments around those issues as well ad the humour as well as Marty’s analogy of a Cdn!
The only point I would make is that we currently mandate vaccinations for kids as protection against viruses that have a less of a death rate than CV19 does now within the context of children. How should we think about this?
Additionally, the mRNA technology has not been used on humans before. Long term effects, in this context, are not known. The kids who are under mandate would then effectively be test subjects.
I'm not sure Peter does himself much justice here... As an old zen monk once told me 'Follow the money son'. Towards the end one of his guests Rubin? sets about dismantling Robert Malone's claims. Sounded plausible but let's put this in context. He then admits to being the beneficiary of NIH funding. So who funds the NIH? The taxpayer gets stiffed of course, but color me surprised. Here we have luminaries like Bill Gates and Big Pharma featuring as major players in funding for clinical trials
Enjoyed this discussion but was surprised that none of the guests pointed out the false equivalence in Peter's comparisons of risk of death in young people due to COVID vs. homicide, suicide, drug overdose and motor vehicle accidents. The very obvious difference is that there is not a vaccine (read: cheap, safe, quick and effective intervention) for these other types of events. Actually there is one "vaccine" (seatbelts) and "vaccine mandate" (seatbelt laws) for one of these categories of events, and the debate on those is settled. Let's encourage the same data-based, logical approach to COVID vaccine requirements.
Marty makary mentions using convalescent plasma as an effective treatment since 3 of the 4 current monoclonal Ab treatments don’t work or not widely available. Red Cross only accepts convalescent plasma from those naturally infected by SARS CoV2 and cannot accept from those vaccinated and infected. Is that correct? If so what are the broader implications?
Thank you for a great discussion. I particularly agree with the statement that reaching people with unbiased information rather than mandates is the way to go. I don't know if that is possible anymore, however. We would have to trust our "experts" again. Shame and fear are not good motivators, definitely not in the long run.
Great discussion. Would like to see more push back on masks and more unpacking of the cost benefit analysis. It seems Omnicron is forcing some proponents or religious advocates to address mask failure in the real world, but not completely. Even if you wear an N95, it is most often imperfect, perhaps you have a beard, perhaps it’s not sealed, perhaps it’s just loose. I can’t recall seeing anyone wear one correctly in two years. It’s evident when it sucks in and out w each breath, hence sealed. So in utopia or in a more virulent outbreak, it may make some sense for masks mandates in general, but it wasn’t as virulent as represented, we are not perfect in our application nor do we live in utopia and as Peter clearly understands there are other more damaging unintended consequences to the forced masking, especially to our children.
Peter and friends great podcast as usual. Thank for being human! I sure do appreciate your discussions. The best thing is it matches my unlearned view of what I've see going on around me. Unlike what I hear from others as i was working though the last 2 years! Excellent I refuse to live under the bed with the news telling me how it is. Cause it ain't mosty.
The explanation why people are not proportionally more concerned about deaths due to the other factors Peter mentions is that, contrary to their stated concern for other individuals and/or the community at large, people are more likely just concerned about themselves. People screeching the loudest about other people being vaccinated and boosted is because a) they did that for themselves and don't like the idea other people aren't doing the same and b) they believe that they are at higher risk of being infected if there are less vaccinated people walking around. The bottom line is that people are primarily self-interested despite what they might say. That's fine but would be better if people were honest about their motivations including being more honest with themselves.
I was to express my gratitude for this insightful, educational and awesome talk between all you brilliant folk I want to wear my agenda t-shirt proudly now! Thank you!
Why is there no talk about ivermectin and hydroxychoroquine? Don't you think it's wildly inappropriate for UA-cam to censor anyone that says it's a potentially effective treatment?
Yes she has a lot to say....though It worried me that should could not defend her position on Mandating Vaccines at all let alone scientifically. Her posistion on this is pretty poor and made worse by the absence of a scientifically defensible argument.
@@gribbler1695 1. That is not an argument for no interview. That's just another way of saying you want to censor him. you can always ask him on things you see as flaws in the interview. 2. who really has been a reliable source at all last 2 years?? is it - cdc that denied natural immunity?? Topol who exploited a pattern in seasonality to push a political position of mandating lockdown?? Racaniello who ignores bioethics and public health principles?? or cvid alarmists like Ding and Jha?? the arrogance to judge whether someone is reliable to talk to or not - without realizing your side has also had flaws and without striving to seek clarity of arguments - shows that scientific dialogue is dead. full lockdown and mandates are extumary policies - selecting for the most extreme option under consideration, in an effort to manage perceptions of 'definitive action' or illusions of control.
@@nomnomyam9379 I was referring to the Stanford report he co-authored, about the covid fatality rate, which had statistical errors, flawed testing and sample bias. And he was a promoter of the Great Barrington Declaration, which was naive and dangerous. Ref: What the heck happened to John Ioannidis?
@@gribbler1695 1. that santa clara study has been revised after feedbacks, and it's just for one county - he published w.h.o ifr study analyzing 82 estimates, is that ifr wrong? you don’t even need santa clara nor w.h.o study - we knew ifr from early chinese data yet zerocvid pple ignored the stratification. every study has flaws, but using a study to extrapolate as if that represents all of his work on the topic - and therefore conclude that he is 'unreliable' - is nothing but a slander tactic of censoring him. should we say lancet is 'unreliable' bc of the lancet-gate? no. regardless, it’s still not an argument for no dialogue/interview. 2. are you saying that focusing finite resources on the protection of the most vulnerable is deemed “naive and dangerous”? i guess there are no trade offs - unconstrained optimization at zero cost! lockdown proponents argue with slippery slope fallacy - if you think lockdown worked, try living in informal economy once. and GBD is not 'let it rip’ - there are 3 different approaches (open vs vertical vs horizontal interdiction). peru had the strictest lockdown in the world and it utterly failed. if you have read enough of dr Gorski's writing you would see a pattern of texas sharpshooter fallacy and politics-based guilt by association fallacy. it's not science-based medicine, it's more like politics-based medicine. and he fails to know the difference between debate vs dialogue, and between science vs pubic health policy.
@@nomnomyam9379 Ioannidis cannot defend that pitiful excuse for a study, and refuses to admit his mistaken judgments. Gorksi uses a lot of science to back his arguments, and he is well qualified to do so, unlike Ioannidis' epidemiology background.
What is your thought on a hypothesis of ancestor sarscv2 variants circulating before the first wuhan variant, which would have given prior immunity? when one examines nucleotide-entropy weighted mutation and genetic distance of the complete 144-slot genetic profile of Omicron and compare to sarscvd2 phylogenetic tree, it becomes clear that its lineage is a full two years older than even the first Cvid virus in Wuhan, China. This ancestor of Omicron caused an outbreak across the world in 2018 and 2019 (8 nations had elevated excess mortality in 65+age groups in 2018/2019), and it was mistaken as an 8-fold higher rate of flu across the Asia-Pacific-Africa for those years. 24% INDELs insertion and deletions in omicron genome cannot come from B.1 Alpha variant (especially when deletions take 8x slower in rna virus, and omicron mostly has deletions). and is it really possible that BA.1 omicron variant mutated from BA.2 omicron variant in just 60 days??? despite an enormous genetic separation??? And there are other consilience inferences indicating prior variant, like [The twin-beginnings of COVID-19 in Asia and Europe - One prevails quickly] - Ruan et al, Dec 2021. and [Cross-Reactive Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 and MERS-CoV in Pre-COVID-19 Blood Samples from Sierra Leoneans] - Borrega et al. Dec 2021. So read this well-source hypothesis - it's 90pages long, but it is worth reading to the end:: [China’s CCP Concealed SARS-CoV-2 Presence in China as Far Back as March 2018] - written by the Ethical Skeptic. for countries like china, the effect of prior immunity is mistaken as lockdown being effective.
Excellent discussion thank you. Z dog proclaiming that he has never understood ‘the lady parts ‘ and his ‘wife will attest to this ‘ was disconcerting (if true) and funny enough to jab him about no matter what :) Anyway, thanks for the deep dive and keep on exploring.
I only hold a BS in Cell Biology & Evolutionary Biology, but even I have been saying this from early on. This really makes me question the knowledge and competency of the medical community. How can they possibly be this far behind?
I enjoyed the conversation overall. My main issue is with Monica and how she is locked into her positions based on what she believes. Granted she has a lot of experience but it clouds her judgment and she takes positions that are either wrong or have been proven to be wrong. Masks, Mass Vaccination for all, Mandates, Herd Immunity, and its effects compared to vaccines. I am still waiting on a walk back on a lot of those and the amount of circle talk on this podcast was annoying
Amen, Marty! "People are starving for honesty." And yes, Peter. " . . . hope that information can trump fear." Sorry Z, your quotable material flies by at lightning speed." Lol . . . PS Love when any combination of you three (throw in Vinay) get together to inform, educate, and have the occasional rant.
I am not sure where my comment went, censored? My question was about Pfizer being fully approved. Was it not Corminity and not Pfizer? Can you all confirm. Thanks
@@violetrocks2934 I've read this elsewhere, but isn't this really just a packaging thing? The contents are the same, but they are still using the old stock with old packaging. I could be wrong, but that is the way I read it. It's not approved on a technicality.
@@GregKingston Yes, that sounds familiar. Still doesn't explain why the ones they give in the US are not FDA approved. I'm assuming Comirnaty is liable with the approval (?)
I'm a fan of the show and I learned from this podcast. So thank you. And Dr. Ghandi was by far the most reflective and balanced speaker in the room. :) ....But....Bringing in a group of like-minded people to speak beyond their profession wheelhouse (on sociology, politics, psychology) is not up to your standard; nor does it exemplify what you were all preaching in the podcast about getting outside of the blinding tribe, neural network. You and your guests are best when you stick to the facts and areas of expertise. :) Then a few little nitpicks: 1. Comparing Sweden to the US death rates isn't great; it would be better to compare its rates to the other Scandinavian countries with more comparable population profiles--and you'll find a very different result. 2. Slippery slope and strawman arguments aren't a good look for someone of your intelligence. 3. I might need to re-listen, but did I hear one of your guests say that the high hospitalisation we're experiencing is because of delta? That seems a stretch given the curves. 4. At would level of hospital capacity, if any, would you support public policy measures that "internalise" the "externalisation" costs of unnecessarily exposing others to a virus. 3. Speaking of logical inconsistencies challenging your endothelial function suggests a level of self-delusion and self-confidence that is pretty amazing. We are all subject to logical inconsistencies. You displayed more of them in this one podcast than I've seen in all your others combined. And yet, and yet(!) I still learned a lot from the podcast and it gave me interesting information and real hope that we're coming out of this mess. So, thanks. :)
Malone wasn’t banned on Twitter then went on Rogan. Malone was banned immediately before the Rogan podcast that was already scheduled. You’re framing it as though Rogan is giving a platform for silenced crazies. It’s an important fact here.
Love his podcasts (protein and zone 2 discussions hooked me), bought the book, and going back to listen to this; I'm a little shocked by his views on masks. Didn't Peter once practice surgical medicine? Was he complaining about his freedom to wear surgical masks while operating on a patient? Yes, one can argue that mask mandates probably aren't really effective simply because people wear them wrong, or wear the incorrect types of masks - but really kinda shocked that he believes they do nothing with regards to germ theory. If he argued from this standpoint then I'd be accepting of his view. Next step? Don't wear gloves or wash your hands when conducting surgery? I'm now a little worried about some of his scientific views. Anyways will continue to listen to his stuff, but I feel I need to read the source research he cites and not trust all and every interpretation he makes. My background is post-doctoral associate in marine biology, so I'm at least able to read/interpret research (which takes a significant amount of time).
This is really annoying: " Universities used to teach even liberal students a class in any science to give them a sense of the scientific method .... we should act more based on data and reason rather than emotion and tribal affiliation " and then the same person jumps to " so this guy Malone uses this garbage made up term from this shady fellow in Europe ... now let me give you my theory ...." . Theory that appears to breakdown in 5 minutes, as most 35+ / 40+ people aren't addicted to social media by any stretch of the imagination yet appear to be some of the most hardened advocates of one position or another ... FFS .... This is what's getting revealed more and more in this time, that scientists (even the best of them) are just as human as everyone else, except they look at themselves as experts and give themselves why too much benefit of the doubt when they venture on in these non-scientific manners without signaling first: hey, even though I'm a scientist, what I'm about to do is very unscientific so treat it accordingly ...
"He's a filthy immoral person" 😂 Love the sarcasm👏 Also Peter, I feel your pain. I also can't stand the approaches so filled with logical inconsistencies. It's driving me nuts. As far as compassion for people who are scared (for instance physically healthy but hysterical mask wearers): I have compassion for everyone suffering, but a some point people HAVE TO take some personal responsibility for being so unbelievably ignorant. Sane and rational people can't keep living in the delusions of others.
Nothing she said about long covid aligns with what people are experiencing. I love this podcast but as a long covid sufferer of two years and someone who has spent the last two years confering with hundreds of similar cases in a group of 10's of thousands that is utter BS. Most were healthy, athletic, and had mild or even non symptomatic cases. LC came on slowly over an extended time. No biomarkers found in typical bloodwork, With the delay it would not even be possible to do a study at this point. I hope she is right but I guarantee that what she is calling lc is not lc. Just lost every bit of respect I had for this podcast.
Also the data collected in the groups does not substantiate that the V reduces lc symptoms. Some have found that and others got way worse. Somewhere in the 50% range. And her implications of psychosomatic illness. If so I am both psychosomatic and have precognition abilities. Our strange symptoms came on long before there was any info arising on these symptoms. Even today nobody is discussing them outside of user groups. She is 100% wrong on every statement she made. Pure arrogance and this information is damaging.
Yes And there is the huge problem/phenomena/Nexus of Hospital statistics colliding with billing, categorization & health insurance rules & limitations. It's crazy how the medical system has not kept up kept on improving the statistics of people. This is going be one of THE topics when it finally emerges. Not just for being able to understand, but to prepare well for the future
I see a lot of long-COVID denial / downplaying among this tribe of scientists. I agree it’s a complicated situation that requires trade offs. But it’s really telling that these guys and others largely exclude this potentially massive iceberg from the discussion.
As soon as I saw “most were healthy, athletic” in your post I laughed. How would you know this? You really lost “every bit of respect” for someone because what she says doesn’t align with what most people are experiencing? How are you sure you know more about what “most people” are experiencing than her? You “guarantee” that she’s misspeaking about LC? Guarantee? Really? You got COVID and still have issues. I got the shot and still have issues. Boo hoo……
Hundreds of cases is like.... Nothing compared to what these guys are talking about. Not trying to sound unsympathetic but, I think you may be trying to have them tunnel into your situation instead of addressing the general person's situation.
This was a fantastic discussion. Sadly I don't expect any changes from our bonehead policy makers and school administrators with regards to masking and other mandates. Keep up the great work, Peter et al!
Glad you listen to Peter too, he's great! I'm a fan and subscriber to your channel too!
Buddy you think the 2020 election was stolen, your credibility is shot
@@Derbnage someone must've deleted their comment right? Because right now it looks like no one said anything about that.
@@Derbnage Go watch 2000 Mules movie trailer on Rumble. Ballot harvesting on video in 5 battleground states and the criminals are on video stuffing ballots into the Zucker-bucks paid for ballot drop boxes. One whistleblower in GA was paid $10 per ballot and he made $45,000 by harvesting 4,500 ballots between the 2020 general election and the senate run-off. The Dems are busted now, no way of getting out of this one. The coverup by MSM, Dems, Rinos is also criminal and they should be fired or voted out of office.
@@jamesscott1692 another member of the insane clown posse. Congrats.
Thee most enjoyable covid related session I’ve heard in 2 years. It actually made me feel physically and mentally relieved prior to going to sleep. Something about the delivery of the information, still facts and figures, but wrapped in a layer of fun and almost lightheartedness. Thanks Peter, ZDogg and Marty. Really appreciated.
The senator Johnson roundtable from today is way better. COVID-19: a second opinion on rumble
Nq
I agree with everyone's comments on Dr. Monica Ghandi. I did enjoy with this podcast but I am still standing next to other doctors like Dr. Bavartih, Mccallough and Kory.
I’m a bit shocked after listening to what Monica says at around 1:10:00 regarding mask efficacy and the correction of the Bangladesh study. One might recall that this study initially found only a 9% reduction in symptomatic cov infections, which frankly is lackluster to begin with. So to hear that this study was reanalyzed and then corrected to demonstrate negligible effect is extremely shocking and frustrating. For TWO YEARS there was intense social and legal pressure to wear masks (the overwhelming type being cloth and surgical) and now we know it was all for naught… astoundingly wasteful… and perhaps an intentional deception… The most egregious aspect of this deceit, regarding mask efficacy in transmission reduction, is that it was insisted to be objective fact and completely supported by the Scientific Establishment.
It is blatant misinformation like this and the corresponding demonization of the opposition (which it um turns out was completely correct in this regard) that has SO MANY citizens furious at the Power Structures.
No disrespect to Monica, but even her answer demonstrates the disconnect between the Establishment and the People. Instead of answering your question outright, she gives a rather deflective, pedantic response that almost obscures the essential information- THAT MASKING DOES NOT REDUCE TRANSMISSION ON A POPULATION LEVEL. Considering that masking has been enforced since the beginning of the pandemic, this revelation should be an absolute bombshell, as it completely obliterates the mask narrative and exposes it as baseless!!
Monica should be upset, the scientific community should be upset, and the global population should demand answers. This wasn’t an honest mistake by the Medical Complex and greater Power Structures, it was a worldwide deception that should never be forgotten.
I couldn't agree more. What frustrated me most is that when it became obviously the case, I immediately stopped wearing a mask and was demonized for it. I went out publicly, making every effort to smile and be as kind as I could, but people were largely shocked at my not wearing a mask. One person said I should go to prison, another wished someone would punch me in the face. Because we are so susceptible to symbolism and perceived social virtue, masks were the ultimate virtue cocktail that not wearing one symbolised 'not caring' in the view of many. I will never wear a false symbol of obedience and conformity in the name of science ever again, so long as my government demand it. They must provide evidence to back up their claims, and not use the scientific process in vein, or fall back on 'science' as if it's an outcome instead of a process. The way she defelcts to the vaccines with the same ferver makes me sceptical of her ability to descern any truth from data, as opposed to 'perceived truth from socially approved narratives'
I find Zubin is misrepresenting Malone quite a bit.
I noted that too.
Good talk. I think they went easy on Ghandhi on some points. She did seem to change positions on mandates or at least lessened her stance. She's still off on masks and can't decide what way to go. Peter pressed her on it a little to try to get her to admit she was talking in circles.
I hope you do a follow up on all of the vaccine side effects.
Coercion of any sort is a violation of medical ethics but to coerce because of the stated reason of hospitalization load without regard to an individual patients hospitalization risk is an even worse violation.
People with this view of human rights, why you may be affable and pleasant, we are simply incompatible to live together and should break up the country.
Well, better late than never. And uhhh…one seemingly hilarious update at 1:24:30 - “…a very good study shows that those who’ve had two doses of vaccine have fewer long covid symptoms than those who’ve never had covid…” (but all-in-all very worthwhile). Have two requests/criticisms: (1) the question of whether vaccine is ever needed after covid infection is not really addressed, and (2) more discussion of vaccine adverse events needed.
Yeah it sounded like she was trying to say that v induced lc was psychosomatic. Just one more doctor denying the existence of lc. The medical community has completely failed. Failed due to arrogance. A little humility would have gone a long way. So angry as are so many thousands of others!
Totally agree. In addition would be interested to discuss, at least theoretical, long- term consequences of nearly-experimental vaccines, which nobody even can guess right now and stop being so short- sited, especially for younger population. Also, we should distinguish between healthy unvaccinated and "healthy" unvaccinated. They put in the same category overweight and nearly- alcoholics...
@Todd Cory see the pukeworthy interviews with Hotez and Offit, toddy
CDC released data that shows natural immunity from previous covid infection is better protection than vaccination.
@@TheShumoby Yes, amazing they finally admitted this. Now let's see policy changes that align with the current understanding of the science
Great discussion, but wanted to clarify some points around the long COVID data-while vaccination remains a great measure in future-looking immunity, the lion’s share of data does not indicate it is a highly effective mechanism for the treatment of long COVID. As a long hauler myself (debilitatingly ill since April 2020), I have a vested interest in following the data closely, and the data consistently indicates that after vaccination most long haulers (around 60% or so, though it varies from study to study) report no change in symptoms. A split amongst the remainder either get better or get worse, and those numbers vary a bit from study to study, usually the getting worse cohort is slightly smaller than the gets better cohort, but both are significantly smaller than the about 60% or so that remain the same. It’s great if vaccinations protect looking forward in the prevention of future long COVID cases, but I think the information around treatment of current cases needs to be handled with greater diligence and care. First, we had to fight for our condition to be recognized. (For about a year I was told I simply had anxiety.) Now, we have to fight with an ever-swirling panel of experts across media that often mean well but have little direct reference for this highly individualized condition and the ever-changing landscape of data trying to be drawn from around what is largely still such a mysterious condition. Thank you all for your work!
Natural immunity has always existed until COVID-19. I think its quite sad we are just now acknowledging it as health care professionals.
Dear Dr Attia.
Zappa said it, though I doubt he coined the phrase, “don’t believe everything you think”.
Grateful for another intelligent conversation!! Appreciate all of it: the facts, opinion, humility and compassion!
Too far and too few between these days.
The Canadian discussion hits home hard. I’m in Alberta, and am so thankful I’m not in Ontario, but also dream of living in Texas.
Great discussion from yourself and your amazing guests.
I would move to Alberta from Omtario but couldnt handle a place colder than where I live, Ontario. But Alberta looks beautiful
I love Peter's idea of the debate format similar to that of a trial with discovery. Would be awesome to see that.
Professor Mattias Desmet is the one who put out the theory of mass formation and wrote a book about it. I believe I found three UA-cam interviews last time I looked. He is quite compelling and brings sense to what is happening at this time, whether it fully applies or not. He explains it was at the basis of Nazi Germany and Stalin Russia, thus why Malone speaks of Nazi Germany.
Something doesn’t add up here. At about 1:43, they claim there was 1 death among 52,000 people in a study about omicron. If you divided the US population of 320,000,000 by 52,000, you get about 6,150. So by this logic, if every single person in the US was infected with omicron, just over 6,000 people would die from omicron in total.
Yet 7 day average daily death rate from COVID in the US is over 2,300. How on earth does this make any sense?
Sorry, this just blows up this whole discussion for me. To make such a seemingly bizarre statement detached from reality suggests something is really off with how they are assessing the situation.
@@bikeforfun no information is being added up, thought through, and assessed logically in America.
Then my dogmatic friends and acquaintances throw the 'science card' in my face. WHAT SCIENCE?!?!
But I do appreciate Peter Attia's effort here, to inform his listeners!
And, loving all the comments from his mostly intelligent followers.
@@bikeforfun Yep. Wondering that myself as well. That makes no sense at all.
The problem I have with people who have so much anxiety that they are wearing two mask while playing golf alone, is that they probably view me as a evil person who is an immediate threat and less than human for not protecting them by wearing a mask. And if they feel that way about me, I expect them to do everything they can to make me comply to their opinion on masks, vaccines, testing, etc.
Fear is a mind killer. It has become a habit for them. They seem to protect their ego more than their children too. And I don’t like the pollution these so-called “parents” and “adults” create. But one can’t fight the stupid - feels quite evil to be honest. ‘Idiocracy’ is a great documentary! 😅
Dont forget their ego of being able to pretend they are a saviour of society by stopping the spread with their mask use
Or maybe that person is severely immunocompromised and didn't want to take any chances in public.
This too is a fear and an anxiety. Don't let their issues become your issues, just ignore them and live your life
Yes, but at the same time when you have a president who is trying to mandate vaccinations it becomes a real issue that affects people.
Great talk, love everyone in this chat! Also enjoy Vinay Prasad!
Any thoughts on the new vaers data released from Pfizer?
These poor doctors are straining their best to find a rationale for much of the policy recommendations by the CDC.
Retired nurse after 50 years and absolutely enjoyed this entire conversation. I am still trying to figure out what was meant by Peter’s “phosphorylated” Love listening to such intelligence - your hearts are all in the right place. Thank you !
I think he means "amped up" or "excited." Recall that a phosphorylated AMP or ADP is ATP, which is the cell's energy source. At least, that is my best guess on what he means.
1:55 he literally just explained the causes of this mass formation psychosis. (Which is not a garbage term, it is what it is)
Social media has created massive polarity and radicalization of beliefs.
The news media has ramped up the fear so much and it hypnotizes people.
The antiviral oral medication is NOT available yet. It’s formulary in our EMR now, as an order, but NOT available to general public. You can’t use this as a tool in your toolbox yet- YET!
If I remember right, it’s only potentially available for those with comorbidities-comorbidities often treated with medications contraindicated with the antiviral medication…
What? There are two dozen efficacious medications out there.
@@erastvandoren There are not two-dozen antivirals found effective
@@EZBISME c19early
@@erastvandoren Most of these have few studies or show only marginal improvement at best. There is not strong evidence.
Can we PLEASE have a discussion about Taiwan’s approach!? They had a normal life through most of the pandemic without lockdowns, school closures, etc. It seems to me they have much better outcomes than Sweden.
I appreciate the thoughtful discourse in this discussion, as well as the comments, as the majority of them were also thoughtful. Thank you all.
I was not expecting to be suddenly brought to tears, though. When Marty mentioned the number of studies being done on masks -- something I already knew as I think he's mentioned it or alluded to it before -- that did it. As someone with kids in both college and high school, it boggles my mind that we have instituted these policies with no regard for whether they even work, never mind the long-term implications of their possible (probable) detriment. At this point in the pandemic/endemic, we should have multiple peer-reviewed studies that show their efficacy in student populations.
Do I dare to dream that my kids might be able to finish their school year without masks? That they might be able to have conversations with their peers, teachers, and professors, sing in choir, play in orchestra, attend sports contests, and move about the community without a mask?
Along those lines, as I dare to dream, I am presented with the issue of quarantines. When masks go away, will we change the requirements for quarantining? My teenager fears that no masks => more sickness (however mild) => more absences => school admin panic & reinstitution of mask policies. Can we get to a point where being sick with covid is like any other respiratory virus -- you stay home if you have a fever and/or incessant cough, but otherwise you are free to attend school?
I have never heard the term "phosphorylated" used in this way.
Thanx for the rational discussion. Every time an important decision is made emotionally and not rationally ends up being a bad decision
I’m still listening and hope this gets brought up. But I understand completely Monica’s concern about so many unvaccinated people ending up in hospital. However could we discuss the available early treatment protocols besides vaccination and how they could have and continue to provide varying ranges of efficacy towards reducing severe adverse affects from coronavirus. Isn’t it also true that we could have not had a mandate for vaccines BUT rather have the vaccines available to everyone, and simultaneously all of the early treatment protocols available and this combination would likely have drastically reduced severe hospitalisation and icu admissions during different stages of the pandemic.
Totally agree, early treatment protocol's and natural immunity and not covered nearly enough. One of the only people I know who has not got COVID in the last 2 years has 3-4 co-morbidities and you might wonder why. It is because he has been on high doses of hydroxychloroquine for a few years, I wonder if there is any correlation, ya think... There are over 50 studies now that show early treatment with ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are very effective along vitamin supplements such as C 1000mg, D3 5000iu, Quercetin 1000mg and Zinc 50mg.
@@jamesscott1692 but that just glossed over in this massive discussion with intellects in the field … so why the division in these topics ?
Great discussion. The section on "agendas" and our current climate of incessant tribalism made me think of a great book: "How to Have Impossible Conversations" by Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay. It's a very practical guide to foster a climate of civility, connection, and empathy. Much needed now, I think.
It would be interesting to see information collated in regard to reactions to the vaccine which result in prolonged joint pain ,fatigue and cognitive issues. I'm not opposed to vaccines but it seems that a scientific approach which would determine the safest application to those who may have these responses would increase compliance.
after modern a - i developed joint pain in fingers, knuckles, wrists and toes - in addition to racing heart, high bp and chest pain. never had this stuff happen before -,was a healthy 56 yr old male; now, who knows
I concur with Dr Peter about his t-shirt slogan. I'm clearly worried about if/when being diagnosed with Covid and needing medical treatment finding a doctor who would actually treat me or my family with everything that is available. In my discussions with friends, one of my constant worries is available therapeutics not being made available because of the political leaning or fear of reprisal from the treating physician.
I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed both podcasts. I wish I could mandate that everyone in academia and government would be made to sit down and listen to both!
Where was the data backed discussion on long covid? Did I miss it ?
The reason for the repulsion over discussing natural immunity is rooted in the Great Barrington Declaration and herd immunity. There’s a path between the two dots, but those are the two dots… Herd immunity -> natural immunity.
What a GREAT podcast on such a taboo subject, especially for doctors. And Monica was such a vast storehouse of knowledge.
I find it strange that Peter & Monica didn’t address the asymptomatic transmission with respect to masks, and how the main reason for masks (to my understanding) has been to prevent the mask-wearer from transmitting to others.
Actually, technically it is presymptomatic transmission which refers to persons who are not yet symptomatic, but will be symptomatic as their illness develops. Asymptomatic persons who never develop symptoms during their illness have actually been shown not to spread the virus. This differentiation (pre vs a) is often not discussed/realized.
Phenomenal discussion. One thing I loved is the discussion of "data" as opposed to "science." The distinction is relevant. Science is a tool to acquire data, and interpret data. It isn't data by itself. Yet "science" is referred to so frequently now as a more of a proxy for policy, rather than the tool that it is. Data is really what should be driving these discussions, and I appreciate that you all relied heavily on data for the pro/cons in the arguments. Also really enjoyed the religion comparisons. Very insightful. Excellent job. Very impactful analyses.
Given the lack of clarity due to the various hands that are in the cookie jar - could you please make the show notes for part 1 & 2 available for free? The amount of valuable information that isincluded in these podcasts that could help educate others would be much appreciated!
I wish I could talk to you guys… I had Covid I am sure I did in late February early March 2020. I tested negative for flu and everything else. My husband and I both had it and we could not even walk to the kitchen and we were devastated. I was pregnant at 6 wks at the time. I ended up having a miscarriage at 12 Wks. I am a first responder and my EMS partner went out in May 2021 with Covid and I did not test but I felt bad for 2 1/2 days and I was fine after that no I did not get tested bc she was positive. She and I had our “antibody” tests done and we were sky high. I am so angry at the info being given…I do t know what to do!!! I listen to you guys all the time but the MSM does not disseminate any of this information!! WHY????? I just wish people would talk to “boots on the ground” !!! I am horrible at articulating what I’m thinking about so excuse my rant. And no, I do not expect anyone to get back with me.
While you are talking about vaccine mandates, I keep waiting to hear you consider those who already had and recovered from natural Covid infection in last 2 years. OK, thanks.. just heard it.👍
thanks for explaining fluvoxamine and the NIH. I read what the NIH said after the last broadcast and wondered who was telling the truth.
Peter should interview virologists Dr Vincent Racaniello and Dr Amy Rosenfeld from Cornell University and the podcast ‘This Week in Virology”. The only podcast on viruses worth listening to.
Excellent podcast as was the the last Covid podcast. I’m a Cdn living in BC under different restrictions compared to Ontario and Quebec. However I have had thoughts similar to yours with respect to how absurd the restrictions there have been. I haven’t previously given thought to the analogy of the comparison to fascism but it rings true because how does an unvaxxed Cdn escape from Canada when you can’t get on a plane, train, boat/ferry, or bus to get out of the country? It’s very disturbing and I appreciated your comments around those issues as well ad the humour as well as Marty’s analogy of a Cdn!
I live in Ontario. Cant stand it
The only point I would make is that we currently mandate vaccinations for kids as protection against viruses that have a less of a death rate than CV19 does now within the context of children. How should we think about this?
Additionally, the mRNA technology has not been used on humans before. Long term effects, in this context, are not known. The kids who are under mandate would then effectively be test subjects.
I'm not sure Peter does himself much justice here...
As an old zen monk once told me 'Follow the money son'. Towards the end one of his guests Rubin? sets about dismantling Robert Malone's claims. Sounded plausible but let's put this in context. He then admits to being the beneficiary of NIH funding. So who funds the NIH? The taxpayer gets stiffed of course, but color me surprised. Here we have luminaries like Bill Gates and Big Pharma featuring as major players in funding for clinical trials
Do we have access to the graphs?
Anyone have a link of the peter mccollough refutation podcast?
This is one:
Ref: We need to talk about the vaccines (Dr Vinay Prasad, 19 Jan 2022)
@@gribbler1695 so I should look on Spotify or UA-cam? Link?
Finally …Thank you Peter, Marty, Zubin & Monika!
Enjoyed this discussion but was surprised that none of the guests pointed out the false equivalence in Peter's comparisons of risk of death in young people due to COVID vs. homicide, suicide, drug overdose and motor vehicle accidents. The very obvious difference is that there is not a vaccine (read: cheap, safe, quick and effective intervention) for these other types of events. Actually there is one "vaccine" (seatbelts) and "vaccine mandate" (seatbelt laws) for one of these categories of events, and the debate on those is settled. Let's encourage the same data-based, logical approach to COVID vaccine requirements.
Excellent information and discussion. Thank you!
The homies laugh and clown about the Great Reset but it is very real
Marty makary mentions using convalescent plasma as an effective treatment since 3 of the 4 current monoclonal Ab treatments don’t work or not widely available. Red Cross only accepts convalescent plasma from those naturally infected by SARS CoV2 and cannot accept from those vaccinated and infected. Is that correct? If so what are the broader implications?
The mask mandate on airlines & public transit was overturned yesterday!! Yay!
Thank you for a great discussion. I particularly agree with the statement that reaching people with unbiased information rather than mandates is the way to go. I don't know if that is possible anymore, however. We would have to trust our "experts" again. Shame and fear are not good motivators, definitely not in the long run.
Great discussion. Would like to see more push back on masks and more unpacking of the cost benefit analysis. It seems Omnicron is forcing some proponents or religious advocates to address mask failure in the real world, but not completely. Even if you wear an N95, it is most often imperfect, perhaps you have a beard, perhaps it’s not sealed, perhaps it’s just loose. I can’t recall seeing anyone wear one correctly in two years. It’s evident when it sucks in and out w each breath, hence sealed. So in utopia or in a more virulent outbreak, it may make some sense for masks mandates in general, but it wasn’t as virulent as represented, we are not perfect in our application nor do we live in utopia and as Peter clearly understands there are other more damaging unintended consequences to the forced masking, especially to our children.
Thank you for this conversation!
Thank you for making this convo possible! Would love to hear about vacc side effects in another discussion if possible
Peter and friends great podcast as usual. Thank for being human! I sure do appreciate your discussions. The best thing is it matches my unlearned view of what I've see going on around me. Unlike what I hear from others as i was working though the last 2 years!
Excellent I refuse to live under the bed with the news telling me how it is. Cause it ain't mosty.
Excellent show. As usual, information way beyond what the controlling types would like us to have.
God Bless You for being in TX!!!! Great podcast!
Thank you!!! As always a great discussion.
Wow. Great to hear people thinking and using data. Wait that is what science does and it is never settled. Keep it up!
The explanation why people are not proportionally more concerned about deaths due to the other factors Peter mentions is that, contrary to their stated concern for other individuals and/or the community at large, people are more likely just concerned about themselves. People screeching the loudest about other people being vaccinated and boosted is because a) they did that for themselves and don't like the idea other people aren't doing the same and b) they believe that they are at higher risk of being infected if there are less vaccinated people walking around. The bottom line is that people are primarily self-interested despite what they might say. That's fine but would be better if people were honest about their motivations including being more honest with themselves.
I was to express my gratitude for this insightful, educational and awesome talk between all you brilliant folk
I want to wear my agenda t-shirt proudly now! Thank you!
"Want to' ... it should read
Why is there no talk about ivermectin and hydroxychoroquine? Don't you think it's wildly inappropriate for UA-cam to censor anyone that says it's a potentially effective treatment?
Because they don't work.
Thank you for educating public.
What amazing brilliant speakers I love listening to them all especially Dr. MÓNICA Ghandi WOW me ppl.
Yes she has a lot to say....though It worried me that should could not defend her position on Mandating Vaccines at all let alone scientifically. Her posistion on this is pretty poor and made worse by the absence of a scientifically defensible argument.
So is vaccination necessary for kids
The CDC needs to listen to this NOW.
Great episode.
I don't know this Zubin character but he is clearly a Pfizer employee.
interview dr john iaonnidis on cvid.
'Ioannidis [...] has become blind to his own methodological flaws'.
He is not a reliable source for this pandemic.
@@gribbler1695 1. That is not an argument for no interview. That's just another way of saying you want to censor him. you can always ask him on things you see as flaws in the interview.
2. who really has been a reliable source at all last 2 years?? is it - cdc that denied natural immunity?? Topol who exploited a pattern in seasonality to push a political position of mandating lockdown?? Racaniello who ignores bioethics and public health principles?? or cvid alarmists like Ding and Jha??
the arrogance to judge whether someone is reliable to talk to or not - without realizing your side has also had flaws and without striving to seek clarity of arguments - shows that scientific dialogue is dead.
full lockdown and mandates are extumary policies - selecting for the most extreme option under consideration, in an effort to manage perceptions of 'definitive action' or illusions of control.
@@nomnomyam9379 I was referring to the Stanford report he co-authored, about the covid fatality rate, which had statistical errors, flawed testing and sample bias.
And he was a promoter of the Great Barrington Declaration, which was naive and dangerous.
Ref: What the heck happened to John Ioannidis?
@@gribbler1695 1. that santa clara study has been revised after feedbacks, and it's just for one county - he published w.h.o ifr study analyzing 82 estimates, is that ifr wrong? you don’t even need santa clara nor w.h.o study - we knew ifr from early chinese data yet zerocvid pple ignored the stratification.
every study has flaws, but using a study to extrapolate as if that represents all of his work on the topic - and therefore conclude that he is 'unreliable' - is nothing but a slander tactic of censoring him. should we say lancet is 'unreliable' bc of the lancet-gate? no.
regardless, it’s still not an argument for no dialogue/interview.
2. are you saying that focusing finite resources on the protection of the most vulnerable is deemed “naive and dangerous”? i guess there are no trade offs - unconstrained optimization at zero cost! lockdown proponents argue with slippery slope fallacy - if you think lockdown worked, try living in informal economy once. and GBD is not 'let it rip’ - there are 3 different approaches (open vs vertical vs horizontal interdiction). peru had the strictest lockdown in the world and it utterly failed.
if you have read enough of dr Gorski's writing you would see a pattern of texas sharpshooter fallacy and politics-based guilt by association fallacy. it's not science-based medicine, it's more like politics-based medicine. and he fails to know the difference between debate vs dialogue, and between science vs pubic health policy.
@@nomnomyam9379 Ioannidis cannot defend that pitiful excuse for a study, and refuses to admit his mistaken judgments.
Gorksi uses a lot of science to back his arguments, and he is well qualified to do so, unlike Ioannidis' epidemiology background.
What is your thought on a hypothesis of ancestor sarscv2 variants circulating before the first wuhan variant, which would have given prior immunity?
when one examines nucleotide-entropy weighted mutation and genetic distance of the complete 144-slot genetic profile of Omicron and compare to sarscvd2 phylogenetic tree, it becomes clear that its lineage is a full two years older than even the first Cvid virus in Wuhan, China. This ancestor of Omicron caused an outbreak across the world in 2018 and 2019 (8 nations had elevated excess mortality in 65+age groups in 2018/2019), and it was mistaken as an 8-fold higher rate of flu across the Asia-Pacific-Africa for those years.
24% INDELs insertion and deletions in omicron genome cannot come from B.1 Alpha variant (especially when deletions take 8x slower in rna virus, and omicron mostly has deletions). and is it really possible that BA.1 omicron variant mutated from BA.2 omicron variant in just 60 days??? despite an enormous genetic separation???
And there are other consilience inferences indicating prior variant, like [The twin-beginnings of COVID-19 in Asia and Europe - One prevails quickly] - Ruan et al, Dec 2021. and [Cross-Reactive Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 and MERS-CoV in Pre-COVID-19 Blood Samples from Sierra Leoneans] - Borrega et al. Dec 2021.
So read this well-source hypothesis - it's 90pages long, but it is worth reading to the end::
[China’s CCP Concealed SARS-CoV-2 Presence in China as Far Back as March 2018] - written by the Ethical Skeptic.
for countries like china, the effect of prior immunity is mistaken as lockdown being effective.
Thanks for that information
Excellent discussion thank you.
Z dog proclaiming that he has never understood ‘the lady parts ‘ and his ‘wife will attest to this ‘ was disconcerting (if true) and funny enough to jab him about no matter what :)
Anyway, thanks for the deep dive and keep on exploring.
34:57 When large entities give advice it’s for the greater good but not necessarily best for the individual. Interesting.
Great work Peter!
Why don't you all just admit it was man made..
Follow the money
and the cover ups
Logically inconsistent things really are a challenge for my endothelial function via my blood pressure, too, Peter.
🤣
I only hold a BS in Cell Biology & Evolutionary Biology, but even I have been saying this from early on. This really makes me question the knowledge and competency of the medical community. How can they possibly be this far behind?
I enjoyed the conversation overall. My main issue is with Monica and how she is locked into her positions based on what she believes. Granted she has a lot of experience but it clouds her judgment and she takes positions that are either wrong or have been proven to be wrong. Masks, Mass Vaccination for all, Mandates, Herd Immunity, and its effects compared to vaccines. I am still waiting on a walk back on a lot of those and the amount of circle talk on this podcast was annoying
Amen, Marty! "People are starving for honesty." And yes, Peter. " . . . hope that information can trump fear." Sorry Z, your quotable material flies by at lightning speed." Lol . . . PS Love when any combination of you three (throw in Vinay) get together to inform, educate, and have the occasional rant.
I am not sure where my comment went, censored? My question was about Pfizer being fully approved. Was it not Corminity and not Pfizer? Can you all confirm. Thanks
You are correct. It was Comirnaty that was approved. Ones that they continue to give in the US are still not FDA approved.
@@violetrocks2934 I've read this elsewhere, but isn't this really just a packaging thing? The contents are the same, but they are still using the old stock with old packaging. I could be wrong, but that is the way I read it. It's not approved on a technicality.
@@GregKingston Yes, that sounds familiar. Still doesn't explain why the ones they give in the US are not FDA approved. I'm assuming Comirnaty is liable with the approval (?)
I'm a fan of the show and I learned from this podcast. So thank you. And Dr. Ghandi was by far the most reflective and balanced speaker in the room. :)
....But....Bringing in a group of like-minded people to speak beyond their profession wheelhouse (on sociology, politics, psychology) is not up to your standard; nor does it exemplify what you were all preaching in the podcast about getting outside of the blinding tribe, neural network. You and your guests are best when you stick to the facts and areas of expertise. :)
Then a few little nitpicks:
1. Comparing Sweden to the US death rates isn't great; it would be better to compare its rates to the other Scandinavian countries with more comparable population profiles--and you'll find a very different result.
2. Slippery slope and strawman arguments aren't a good look for someone of your intelligence.
3. I might need to re-listen, but did I hear one of your guests say that the high hospitalisation we're experiencing is because of delta? That seems a stretch given the curves.
4. At would level of hospital capacity, if any, would you support public policy measures that "internalise" the "externalisation" costs of unnecessarily exposing others to a virus.
3. Speaking of logical inconsistencies challenging your endothelial function suggests a level of self-delusion and self-confidence that is pretty amazing. We are all subject to logical inconsistencies. You displayed more of them in this one podcast than I've seen in all your others combined.
And yet, and yet(!) I still learned a lot from the podcast and it gave me interesting information and real hope that we're coming out of this mess. So, thanks. :)
The intellectual dark medical web? Nah, just alt-middle and common sense!
❤️ love and trust each MD/scientist on this podcast! 🤙
Humans are so smart aren’t they.....especially doctors
fantastic pod ❤️🙋🏻♂️👊🏻
Malone wasn’t banned on Twitter then went on Rogan. Malone was banned immediately before the Rogan podcast that was already scheduled. You’re framing it as though Rogan is giving a platform for silenced crazies. It’s an important fact here.
Djokovic will be very welcome in Wimbledon. Vaccinated or not.
If it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger...smh
Great episode
Love his podcasts (protein and zone 2 discussions hooked me), bought the book, and going back to listen to this; I'm a little shocked by his views on masks. Didn't Peter once practice surgical medicine? Was he complaining about his freedom to wear surgical masks while operating on a patient?
Yes, one can argue that mask mandates probably aren't really effective simply because people wear them wrong, or wear the incorrect types of masks - but really kinda shocked that he believes they do nothing with regards to germ theory. If he argued from this standpoint then I'd be accepting of his view.
Next step? Don't wear gloves or wash your hands when conducting surgery? I'm now a little worried about some of his scientific views.
Anyways will continue to listen to his stuff, but I feel I need to read the source research he cites and not trust all and every interpretation he makes. My background is post-doctoral associate in marine biology, so I'm at least able to read/interpret research (which takes a significant amount of time).
is peter still on the “safe and effective” train? please tell me he’s not
Ugh, dr.z...am I right?
Not gonna lie, I had to google "phosphorylated". $5 word there, Peter.
Best approximation of truth to date. Keep going, you’re almost there.
This is really annoying: " Universities used to teach even liberal students a class in any science to give them a sense of the scientific method .... we should act more based on data and reason rather than emotion and tribal affiliation " and then the same person jumps to " so this guy Malone uses this garbage made up term from this shady fellow in Europe ... now let me give you my theory ...." . Theory that appears to breakdown in 5 minutes, as most 35+ / 40+ people aren't addicted to social media by any stretch of the imagination yet appear to be some of the most hardened advocates of one position or another ... FFS .... This is what's getting revealed more and more in this time, that scientists (even the best of them) are just as human as everyone else, except they look at themselves as experts and give themselves why too much benefit of the doubt when they venture on in these non-scientific manners without signaling first: hey, even though I'm a scientist, what I'm about to do is very unscientific so treat it accordingly ...
"He's a filthy immoral person" 😂 Love the sarcasm👏 Also Peter, I feel your pain. I also can't stand the approaches so filled with logical inconsistencies. It's driving me nuts.
As far as compassion for people who are scared (for instance physically healthy but hysterical mask wearers): I have compassion for everyone suffering, but a some point people HAVE TO take some personal responsibility for being so unbelievably ignorant. Sane and rational people can't keep living in the delusions of others.
The entire response has been logical inconsistency after another with no apparent ability for officials to learn from previous mistakes.
50:00
1:24:24 sounds evil. bullish for psychotherapy.
Nothing she said about long covid aligns with what people are experiencing. I love this podcast but as a long covid sufferer of two years and someone who has spent the last two years confering with hundreds of similar cases in a group of 10's of thousands that is utter BS. Most were healthy, athletic, and had mild or even non symptomatic cases. LC came on slowly over an extended time. No biomarkers found in typical bloodwork, With the delay it would not even be possible to do a study at this point. I hope she is right but I guarantee that what she is calling lc is not lc. Just lost every bit of respect I had for this podcast.
Also the data collected in the groups does not substantiate that the V reduces lc symptoms. Some have found that and others got way worse. Somewhere in the 50% range. And her implications of psychosomatic illness. If so I am both psychosomatic and have precognition abilities. Our strange symptoms came on long before there was any info arising on these symptoms. Even today nobody is discussing them outside of user groups. She is 100% wrong on every statement she made. Pure arrogance and this information is damaging.
Yes
And there is the huge problem/phenomena/Nexus of Hospital statistics colliding with billing, categorization & health insurance rules & limitations.
It's crazy how the medical system has not kept up kept on improving the statistics of people.
This is going be one of THE topics when it finally emerges. Not just for being able to understand, but to prepare well for the future
I see a lot of long-COVID denial / downplaying among this tribe of scientists. I agree it’s a complicated situation that requires trade offs. But it’s really telling that these guys and others largely exclude this potentially massive iceberg from the discussion.
As soon as I saw “most were healthy, athletic” in your post I laughed. How would you know this? You really lost “every bit of respect” for someone because what she says doesn’t align with what most people are experiencing? How are you sure you know more about what “most people” are experiencing than her? You “guarantee” that she’s misspeaking about LC? Guarantee? Really? You got COVID and still have issues. I got the shot and still have issues. Boo hoo……
Hundreds of cases is like.... Nothing compared to what these guys are talking about. Not trying to sound unsympathetic but, I think you may be trying to have them tunnel into your situation instead of addressing the general person's situation.