For most electronics what Paul is saying is right. For speakers though it is different. A lot can be inferred from measurements especially spinorama data. Highly recommend Erins Audio corner. He explains this in his speaker measurements in plain straight English. PS audio speakers measured quite good in one of his videos.
the value is in Eric's interpretation of the data not in the data itself. Nobody cares about the measurements, what We care as a consumer is how those measurements translates into sound and why that speaker is preferred over the other and in what cases. But this is something really hard to understand for the "audio measurement crowd".
@@net_news Really? Most consumers are still unaware about the value of measurements (maybe). But consider this: no one can audition hundreds of speakers, amps, dacs, CD players, etc before making an informed purchase decision. Anybody can check measurements of thousands of units without having to attend a show or going to a dealer (who can trick you with stuff that sounds good in their carefully staged rooms), in a short period of time. In general bad measurements mean low quality electronics too.
I am not a measurement crowd guy, but Erin did a fantastic job with your new speakers and his review. He’s extremely picky and if he likes them, has literally no complaints, they must be amazing. I don’t mind the measurements, but at the end of the day, it’s about my room and what it sounds like. Period.
Erin does one thing right: he LISTENS then take the measurements and finally gives a subjective conclusion comparing what he heard and what he found in the measurements. That's what makes his reviews much more useful to the end user than ASR's reviews. BTW I think Eric still focus too much in measurements, minutes and minutes talking about the measurements when what We really care about is his last 30 seconds conclusion, I mean, what We really want is his illustrated perception/opinion. If I go to the doctor I want his opinion not a 40 minutes speech about how the cholesterol values have been taken. I pay the doctor to interpret those numbers and to give me a diagnostic and a "solution"!!! Why is so hard for these audio people to understand???
@@trauma50disaster1 haha absolutely but IMHO Erin's opinion is the added value not the measurements. ASR does measurements too and many others, the difference is in the listening, the ilustrated opinion.
@@net_news I occasionally watch him. I am a Klipsch Heritage fan and he despises Klipsch. But they sound good to me. They sound amazing to me. I have a set of Fortes. Erin and I have talked about it at an audio show. If it sounds good, I could totally care less what that machine in his garage says. The machine is not going to be in my living room. In regards to the doctor and the 40 minute speech on the cholesterol. He didn't make the videos for you; he made them for an audience and that audience wants that 40 minutes. I am just like you, I'll take a look at some of those measurements, but essentially I watch the beginning, some measurements, and then the conclusion. But Erin is catering to his audience.
I'm glad there's a mix of objective and subjective reviews out there. I can't often get to a retailer to listen to gear. I'm not super comfortable with how much impact these reviewers have on the market though. I imagine it must be very flummoxing for a company to fret over what a UA-cam reviewer might or might not say, and the effect that their review may have on sales. I'm glad PS Audio is going to respond and I think other companies should as well. They have every right.
It’s nice to see a manufacturer publish their own measurements, then have someone else measure and see if they match (they better… or maybe something went wrong with the testing)
The only reason I can think of for posting the entire AP litany is as Paul sorted out because there are some real bozo reviewers out there who don't know how to use even the most basic instrumentation.
Publishing Specs would improve sales Paul, as a 68 year old returning to Audio after 30 years I have bought 4 new Audio products based on ASR Tests and Measurements. I don't have time for foolish mistakes and money wasting at my age. I like your products and the fact that purchasing them will support people who reside/work in North America. Bottom line is, if you have competitive specs, I and a lot of other people will buy your Product. If people don't publish specs that is their right but I don't think this helps things. Would you buy a car that described an emergency 60Mph hard braking distance (usually specified in feet, ) as "adequate?" or " not too bad??" Keep Up The Good Work
The real mistake is not listening to something before you buy it. Specs only take you so far. Car example: An Acura and an Audi can have the same skidpad specs, but the Audi feels so much more connected to the road. You can't capture that feeling with the specifications. In the same way, reliability and robustness isn't captured by the specs either. So these measurement-only dudes on the web (who walk around with the smug superiority that they are more smart and more right than anyone else) can go circle-jerk themselves off, while those of us who understand that there is more to a product than just how it measures can enjoy our equipment, and not be disappointed in how something sounds despite having "perfect" specs.
I bought a highly regarded amp from a well known British brand a few years ago (about £550 at the time) and whilst it sounds great it suffered from a noticeable buzzing both through the speakers and from the amp itself. The replacement, which I still have, buzzes as well, but less so. The company itself didn't publish data on SNR, probably for that reason. So I think that whilst measurements aren't everything, they do have a place and should be published.
The buzzing from the amp is often an issue with he mains supply into it - dc on the ac supply can cause that and that is why some manufacturers like Audiolab now sell DC blockers. Some amps are just more sensitive to it. I had to plug my old turntable into a separate wall socket (ie not the plug board all the other kit was plugged into) to remove hum from the speakers. I don’t understand the technical reasons why, but it made a massive difference.
Measurements are super interesting, especially when you look at them after listening to speakers/headphones and realize that is what you heard, but EVEN MORE INTERESTING when it does not show what you heard [soundstage, detail, imaging...what did I miss here? :D ].
Micro linear stylus gives more detail for vynil and higher bandwith. Output transformer for tube amp with better core (lower loss) has more detail. Speaker with non-conductive voice coil also has more detail, higher Qms. Etc. I would say something is measurable.
I guess it's always important not only publish the measurements, but also the conditions. As Paul McGowan said: putting a 4volt signal into the inputs is kind of weird. Another big topic, which is super rarely done: Measurements for series scattering.
I do need some data that PS Audio already provide (not all manufactures do) to answer your question. Buy, test, buy again, test, buy again, doesn't work for me. I did buy an amplifier with relative low power rating, because I could use that data to know (some maths needed) if enough was enough. Some old amplifiers or bad new ones output different tensions between channels. ¿Wouldn't be nice to know it before messing with room acoustics o with our own ears?
In today’s world Paul, when you’re selling a DAC for $8,000.00 when functionally equivalent options exist for a couple hundred bucks, the consumers wanna know what makes your worth the cost. Simple cost benefit analysis.
Paul is correct. Most measurement "values" today are all for noise and distortion which are now ridiculously low relative to what humans can detect. However back in the 70's....Hirsh-Houck labs would publish scope photos of sine, square wave, tone bursts and phase analysis measurements (qualitative, not quantitative measurements) all of which have virtually disappeared from the consumer equipment review bench. Caveat Emptor !
they disappeared because is not a product differentiator anymore. All electronics measure well today, nobody cares. It's like trying to sell a computer showing it has a 1ghz CPU!! Hey it has 1ghz LOOK LOOK!! Well...that was a great differentiator 25 years ago but today even my phone have 1ghz cpu. Same happened with audio measurement.
There is value in measurements - however I've often seen people ONLY take measurements into account when selecting equipment, and that will 100% lead you down the wrong path. The best measuring equipment is simply NEVER the best sounding equipment.
I am sticking with your amp. Very dynamic, plays my 3-way JBLs to significant levels. I listen to all these amp and speaker reviews on youtube and call my wife and say listen to these! She says yes but ultimately you are listening to your PS Audio amp and JBLs. Walks out of room. Note, I bought your amp because you included slew rate.
Accurate measurements are fundamental to all electronic and acoustic designs. Without them, you are essentially blind throughout the entire engineering. Showing all measurement data to your customers is a good move.
yeh and no - great measurements still dont indicate the product sounds great. at least it will indicating sounds good. but the tester can manipulate the results. also so many objective reviewers either dont do listening tests or do it in untreated rooms.
Hi there Paul. I hope that this finds you Well & reasonably Happy too. Please Help Me Paul? Is there a mathematical equation to determine the power output required to drive 4 ohm Speakers with an 8 ohm (native) Receiver/Amp? I'm quite frustrated. I already have the Loudspeakers. Thank you for your time. Cheers...
@@paulstubbs7678 Thank You Paul. I'm so ignorant, I wasn't certain that anyone made a Receiver/Amp specifically for 4 ohm Speakers? I was under the impression that 4 ohm speakers were higher end than the 8 ohm Speakers? True? OR Not? I apologize but I am a Noob. Thank You Sir.
@@shineon7641 The problem is 4 ohm speakers will draw more current that an 8, so if the amp is not rated for that it can bring on unexpected operation, often with greater distortion
The issue is extremes. On one hand, relying solely on your ears with no measurements is bad. EQUALLY BAD is relying solely on measurements (even those that make sense), without judging with your ears. Listening tests short circuit the measurement folks, who completely ignore anything that can’t be explained mathematically. The problem with measurements in audio, is there are numbers, but no agreement on what numbers and values sound best.
Ah the holy grail for some, however not a good reason on selecting gear. Yes I do check specs but only after I have listened to the item. That is the final arbiter for me. Cheers Paul.
It's an endless game. Your data will be a mean over several samples of your product. Those guys will take one sample of whatever, measure it, get different numbers than the ones you published, and call you a liar. So you go for third-party measurements. They will do it again, and claim you have paid the third-party to lie. And so on...
How would Paul know that an independent reviewer made a mistake in measuring a certain parameter unless PSA had made those measurements also? So if PSA did make those measurements, why not publish them? Most audiophiles know what the audible threshold is for various differences in parameters and will easily be able to put the measurements into context.
People fail to realise that when you’re getting down into the 0.01% range… the room you measure in and devices nearby is a factor. To the point that any measurement is meaningless and you can easily put your thumb on the scale one way or another. At the same time I think subjective listening is a utter waste of time as a tiny gain difference or bias knowing which product is being used will bias the reviewer easily
Most of this is after the great dumbing down of America. By the 80s descriptions were pounding base, crisp highs, etc. Materials got cheap, foam plastic suspensions which turned to mush in 5 years. Frequency response with difference from flat gone. I did work at a loudspeaker manufacturer for a short time and designed a sample before the company was bought and moved. But for our line we had an anechoic chamber and environmental freezer for quality and harsh environment compliance.
That is not the issue of the science or the measurements themselves. That is the issue of your interest, or lack there of in them an in how to understand them.
@@crazydwarfer ok, give me a specific example then of what specific measurement or spec translates to what we hear subjectively. Can you guarantee that if I look for that specific measurement in another piece of equipment I'll hear the exact same thing or come to the conclusion that it sounds definitively good?
When I am talking about the measurements, I am specifically talking about the speakers frequency response. If you know the usual graph of frequency response of a speaker it is showing how linear it is in reproduction of different frequencies. Like, 20-60Hz is sub bass, 60-250 bass, 250-500 low midrange and so on. If the response is a flat line (which is never possible), then, the speaker will be outputting exactly what was recorded. However, if a bass region is higher - you'll get more bass, and so on. Like an equaliser on a boombox or in a PC music player. Thus, the release by Harman and many others have consistently shown that most listeners preferred the most neutral speakers from a selection of different ones. Therefore, you can predict just looking at the measurements, if the speaker will be liked with a high degree of confidence. Not all people will like it, but more than 80%. So, from 10 people, 8 will choose the most neutral one as a better sounding in a blind test. If the bass is weak, or instead overwhelming, it is seen in measurements, and you can correlate that to what you hear. Erin's Audio Corner measured abd reviewed one of the PS Audio speaker models and they measured very well, and that translates to their sound. Moreover, if you can measure the off-axis frequency response of a speaker and there is little variation from the off-axis, you know immediately that the speaker is easily equalised, and vice versa.
@@crazydwarfer uh, I'm pretty sure Paul in this video is not talking about their speakers but their equipment. Moreover, that does not explain any of the subjective qualities we experience like detail or soundstage (ie. Audiophile terms).
I definitely agree with Paul here. Measurements of the kind that some reviewers do should not inform you about how good a product is. For instance, the distortion measurements for the cheap Class D amp Aiyima A07 Max is pretty good, but it says nothing about the sound signature. For me it is often the sound signature that matters most, not its distortion level at 120 dB or whatever.
@@AudriusN you say that like it's a fact. I have a tube amplifier which is not neutral at all, it's "adding", and I like it very much. Even my DAC adds "warmth". My source and my speakers on the other hand are very neutral. It works well for me.
@@marcusbrsp it is a fact and facts don't care about your feelings. amplifier has only one job to do - take an input signal, amplify it and give it out without altering the FR and minimal possible distortion.
If you look at one of the premier testing UA-cam channels they have a list of best testing. The top is filled with average class D and AVR equipment. And brands like Pass Lab are rated low. Benchmark is one of the channels high ranking brands. The used market is filled with them. Try finding a BHK amp on the used market.
It's as they say : don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. "It's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission" If majority of people are seeking measurements, you bet all these companies will be posting measurements lol
I think the problem with this is products will tend toward a similar sound with all the resonances and colourations squished to flat energetically, im always minded of "the dress" when people argue about perception and realities, the brain does its own thing with the signals, we will perceive differently.
Measurement forums are forums of mass hysteria, it's not audiophilia. It's not that I'm against publishing specs ... Paul states the rest better than I could.
That's as good as you need at the moment .. but when you decide you want to upgrade you will then notice the difference.. but until that time comes you will enjoy what you have & feel as though you have the best.. which is always the right way to understand music until you want to improve the way of listening.
So what metrics show actual performance? It is a wave afterall, it must be measurable.. and from my viewpoint all compoments should be neutral except maybe for one to add coloration.
@@user-et4pf capture a live performance properly, without compressing and equalising the living daylights out of it, and a totally clean, neutral system will sound amazing. Whereas, a coloured system will only sound good on recordings lacking what the system adds. Neutral does NOT mean lifeless and undynamic. Modern, close mic'ed recordings and "perfect" production gives lifeless and undynamic.
@@RacingAnt well recordings are a whole other ballgame; even as an amateur musician myself I don't understand why people are chasing neutrality, maybe for synth pop and EDM is sounds fine but it is ghastly and disturbing with acoustic instruments. There are very few recordings like what you are talking about that I have ever heard, care to share which in particular you are talking about? There is a reason most musicians are wholly uninterested in the audiophile space, they know even the best recordings don't sound like themselves when playing live so who cares, and adding more neutral components to the mix only further contributes to an overly clinical sound, sterile would be the word I would use. Even EQ can't save such systems, or recordings.
It does become a slippery slope where the customer simply orders the best looking charts they can afford. So much more goes into putting together a really enjoyable system.
I think full specs should mandatory to publish by producers. And they also should be standardized in some way. Especially when it comes to speakers and subwoofers. Data such as frequency response graph, SPL graph, group delays and distortion are crucial. Do you imagine selling a car and don't publish it's fuel consumption, top speed or acceleration?
Please give me a properly-conducted set of measurements and trust me not to use that as the sole basis of my purchasing decision. The measurements sidebar in Stereophile is just that, a sidebar, but still a very useful perspective into the engineering decisions that a company has made in the service of (ultimately) subjective enjoyment.
If a speaker measures well it's likely to sound decent however what frequency measurements don't show us the resolving nature of a speaker that's where I leave the measurement camp and go hang on let's listen and compare alongside measurements in conjunction to come to a conclusion. I like Danny at gr research's ideology when it comes to measurements and subjective thoughts.
Nothing tops a great topology...based on logic and experience. Designers may have to test parts for values, noise inductance, etc. But testing was used a lot in the past 60 years because of cheap parts and flawed topologies,, IMO...
There was a commentary by Jim Austin in the latest Stereophile that regarded measurements and a PS Audio product. nothing terrible but something that may need to be addressed by Paul which may have been the motivator to read this letter.
Can someone tell me this.. How do I sit & listen to measurements .. really.. I just want to listen to music which suits my ears.. So if I'm listening to measurement I can also listen to the music.. Lets not get to difficult for the young people who want to listen to music without holding a measuring tool of some kind to understand music ???? I'm 75 this year & this type of music listening is far beyond me to enjoy what I love .. & that's just plain Rock& Roll 😂🤣🔊🎧🎸🎹🎶🎵🎼
I will try, because you completly don't get it. You don't listen to measurements. Measurements are "the scientific and objective language describing of what you are hearing". You can describe your experience as for example bright, loud, and clear. And the problem is your "loud" can be not so loud for someone else, your "bright" can be rather dark to others. Our common language is not precise enough to describe such a things in objective manner. Imagine situation when you reccomend set of speakers to your friend who want to play loud. He buys it and is immediately dissapointed and calls you with grudges: "you said it can play loud and I can't hear a thing". Because "loud" for him is 100dB and for you is 90dB. You said those speakers are loud and you were honest. For you they were. That's why we need obligatory measurements in audio world. Just like we have with tires or refrigerators.
3rd parties who measure your equipment incorrectly … “happens all the time” I’ve been reading re hifi on and off since 1978 … more than 40 years. in magazines, on many websites, videos from dozens of channels from more than eight countries. And Ive been in a large active Audio Club for 20 years I’ve never heard that from anyone these people who publish wrong measurements … how many examples can you give?
we need to see distortion in all harmonic frequencies especially in Low frequencies 20Hz well I just disagree you can tell what a device is like by looking at its harmonics characteristics.
If you like the sound, forget the measurements. Measurements are required in the design process but consumers need to use their ears as that's what you end up using every day.
Which leads to another question. If you are, for example, a company who believes in applying low (or null) global feedback for achieving better sound, you are not going to be competitive in measures such as THD. So, how are you going to face this problem when publishing your measures?
Well if you don't use any negative feedback and hence it distorts more and have wonky frequency response the measurements will show that, nothing wrong with that as long as your marketing don't claim that yous amp or whatever have the clarity of angels and delivers exactly "what the artist intended" then go ahead. It is okay to sell and like bad measuring stuff, just don't claim it's something it's not. Personally I wouldn't ever buy something like that, especially for audiophile prices since it's fully possible to build those kinds of things for the price of a McDonalds meal.
@@gurratell7326 Well, while I was not saying that I'm a fun of global feedback-less designs, I'm afraid I need to correct you here. It's exactly the contrary. Putting a global feedback loop corrects whatever crappy circuit design you may come up with. Making a circuit work without global feedback is the real arena where only the great designers can play. Only afterwards, a small feedback may be eventually added as the icing in the cake. For a price of McDonalds meal, you can make an op-amp amplifier having 0.000001% THD. Instead, making a discrete circuit design stable without global feedback will cost you a portion of Kobe meat. 😉
@@gurratell7326 Well, while I did not mean to say that I'm a fan of global feedback-less design, I'm afraid I have to correct you here. Indeed, very often the global feedback is used to fix crappy designs of all sorts. It's just so easy to cover all non-linearities with a NFB loop. Designing a circuit which is stable without global feedback is the real challenge. And only after having achieved this goal, you can add a small amount of global feedback as the icing in the cake. With the price of a MacDonalds meal you can for sure put up an op-amp based amplifier with global feedback having a 0.000001% distortion. Designing a discrete circuit which is stable without feedback will cost you portion of a Kobe meat meal. 😉
Sometimes, I get the impression that some of the audio reviewers don’t really know what they’re doing. For example, when it comes to speakers, I’m under the impression that those sorts of measurements are irrelevant due to the room.
Would you fly on a plane built without measurements? Airline companys buy planes based on specs, same with people buying cars, and appliances, measurements matter. What are you hiding, specs matter, measurements matter.
When combined with listening measurements can be quite useful for the designer. If there is an issue with the sound measurements can be useful for homing in on the problem. For the consumer specifications are pretty close to meaningless. If it sounds better, it is better.
@@nathanevans6277 Correlating what you hear with measurements is a very good way of optimizing your system though, and you also learn a lot by doing this.
If you say amplifier X has better "sound stage, depth, etc." than amplifier Y how will you show that to someone who will say "no sh*t, Sherlock, Y is better"??
@@AudriusN You measure crosstalk. Though you need crosstalk at something like -30dB or more before it is a problem, which almost no amplifier in the last 50 years have had, sooo saying that amplifier X has better sound stage than amplifier Y is just pointless because an amplifier really doesn't have any soundstage. It just plays whatever soundstage is on the record and then the speakers and room take care of the rest.
"Got to defend yourself out there" - I think that is going to be a losing battle. You are more likely going to appear to validate arguments that are dubious, and end up getting embroiled in further discussions with people who are probably just out to promote themselves. It's the same thing that happens in the political arena. 'Nuff said.
They would never do that. Because if they were, in fact, statistically significant, the audio market bubble would implode. This market thrives on subjectivity presented as untestable dogma. Whose going to buy a $1000 power cable made by ancient monks in Peru if a randomized double blind test shows that no experts can hear a difference?
Could i recommend or beg you to start posting thd number for 20 to 20000hz full range and not the bs 1kz number everyone is chasing. Don't gibe a single f. About 1khz if your 20kz thd is 100 times more. The thd spec should be 20hz to 20khz and at full power, otherwise its just marketing.
I'm in two minds over this. Mind 1: If it's not posted, what are you trying to hide? Mind 2: Something that measures badly may sound great, and something measures well might sound bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, if you're trying to selling audio equipment. It's a bit like ICE cars. They publish only peak horsepower and torque numbers. Even if these are high, there's a lot being left out, such as over what RPM ranges those arrive, sustain, and drop off. A higher horsepower car may actually be slower than a lower horsepower car. That's why more detailed information is required. And yet, just because a car is actually faster, it may feel horrible to drive because it handles poorly. Cars and audio are so ridiculously similar. Divided on which specs matter, which brands are the best, and both are filled with snake oil and deceptive marketing.
It makes no sense to confuse the non- technical potential customer with out of spec testing. I can see why any individual might run up the input beyond spec just to see what happens but what sort of justification is there for a professional doing that? Maybe they’ve been re-living the’60s (inhaling) and want to feed their guitar preamp into the hi-fi equipment believing that they can be the “new Hendrix” with some new and never before heard type of distortion.
Agreed. Choosing components is largely subjective so how they sound is more important. Also, and with all due respect, how many people would understand the majority of measurements, myself included. I understand the importance of some measurements when it comes to system matching, such as a power amplifier’s output and speaker sensitivity but I would be very surprised if the majority of measurement differences are audible.
Check out Floyd Toole's book on Psychoacoustics, it's all there. The research is there. Sean Olive, Todd Welti, Anthony Grimani on acoustics. All the sound reproduction gear engineering is based on scientific research and principles. Why wouldn't it be measurable, and explained in a scientific way? Audio is not some magic - its a propagation of sound waves in the air exiting our ears. It can be measured, calculated, and our preferences as the listeners predicted with a high degree of confidence, which is confirmed by the blind listening test over and over again.
I think many of them are people who are simply attracted to numbers, in this case numbers that claim less distortion = better. I think then there are those that claim they might hear differences, even though the distortion numbers are well beyond human hearing, and some just sleep better at night that their music has less distortion whether they believe they hear it or not.
Some of it depends on what you measure and if you're using the right measuring tool. For instance a bad amp could show bad measurements on the bench, but you wouldn't see it while measuring with a microphone in your living room (you could still hear a differences when comparing amplifiers though). The same example could be made for speakers, there's even a couple of known brands with drivers that typically measure quite badly on a bench, I'm not sure how they measure with a microphone (I can't recall seeing frequency response of the whole speaker) but people don't seem to mind paying top dollar for them. Some people even like things that measure badly, like tilted frequency response, it's a quick sale with forward placing sound (and a headache for me after listening for a couple hours). We not only need to be able and measure more accurately than the specification we're trying to meet (some say "10 times better"), we also need to know what we're looking for (audio system have a lot of stuff happening, we're way past cutting of a 2"x4" to an exact length), then there's psychoacoustics which opens up a barrel of worms here...
What Paul McGowan thinks about publishing specifications for PS Audio equipment is not relevant; as he acknowledges in this video, a significant percentage of the marketplace wants to see specifications, and this has forced manufacturers to comply. Whether you or I think the measurements are relevant (audible) is up for debate, but that is not the really the issue any longer. IMHO, too many people complaining about sites like Audio Science Research are upset because something they own measured poorly and got a bad review.
8:58 et - GM P ! All I have to say is there are scientists and there are audiophiles, never the the Twain shall meet 😄 The Amirs of the world just don’t get it
Measurements don't tell the whole story. They are an indication of accuracy not how things sound sonically. Take 20 different amplifiers, they all may measure flat, but do they sound the same??? No, probably not. With speakers it may be more helpful to have measurements, but even then, the room and placement have more effect than people realise.
In reality you do not listen with just your ears. It is a whole body/being thing. We are an amazingly complex and capable sensory being covering -more than- just our 5 primary senses.
There is research showing undisputed correlation between measurements and what trained and untrained listeners think is good sound. So to claim that measurements say nothing about the performance is really outrageous misinformation.
When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind: it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science, whatever the matter may be. (Lord Kelvin)
High-end audio has failed to publish accurate specs, much less complete measurements. The less they provide, the less I want to buy from them. I want to do business with honest companies that demonstrate good engineering.
Cabinet resonance is unforgivable for +$5000 speakers. Frequency suck outs are unforgivable. The reality is that 9 out of 10 speakers are flawed engineering.
I love ASR's work but people thinking that a "better measurement" translates directly in a better sounding speaker/dac/whatever are WRONG. Absolutely WRONG. There are plenty of products measuring well (most modern products do) but sounding horrible and lifeless. That's something you know when you have real EXPERIENCE with audio products. Taking buying decisions viewing graphs and measurements is the perfect recipe for a disaster. I know because I committed those crimes.
@@net_news typical audiophile round and around. i can tell you that a fancy butique 250kg amplifier is compared to an amp from 10 Eur no-name desktop speakers. and you should trust and throw that overweight garbage in the metal recycler.
I think that measurements for loudspeakers are now complete nonsense. The distortion of your room is much more than the measurements that are looked at. It's actually better to look at how enjoyment you get from the speaker. When looking for headphones may different. Because the range of impedance is now very wide. Even if we only include over-ear headphones that require excessive power there is a value between 14 ohms and 300 ohms. At this point, looking at how the amplifier reacts to these impedance, whether it can provide a stable voltage and whether it can deliver the output power specified by the company without excessive gain makes you an informed consumer. Because companies still do this trick to cheat. It is especially important to look at how the amplifier reacts to low and high impedance. The issue here is not distortion, but whether the amplifier will turn off while driving the headphones. Seriously, there are people who experience this even with very popular amps. In addition, you need to pay some attention to the measurements because you don't want to use a bad amplifier output because there is no room whim in the headphones. That's the order of importance for me; Crosstalk: when this is bad, the headphones don't make any sense, you only get the sound from the front. It also gives an idea about the manufacturing process of the circuit. 12-300 ohm voltage and current outputs: This is also very important because an amplifier that is not capable here is likely to shut down even after half an hour of listening. Even if this doesn't happen, you can hear popping and cracking sounds while knob at 2 or 3 o'clock. Because at some point you have gone beyond the current or voltage limit that the amplifier can deliver. SNR-DNR: I look at these because headphones have better transient response than loudspeakers due to the size advantage and the elimination of room capriciousness, which raises the standard a bit. Of course, I'm not overdoing it, 100dB DNR and -90 or -100dB THD should be enough. Before that I look at how the circuit is designed because that's the key. The crosstalk can change according to the design anyway. I prefer to have an IC instead of an opamp because the stage is deeper and wider and the high frequency sounds more natural than an opamp. No matter how much I look at ASR, this is where I disagree with him because he cares so much about the measurements that when it goes from -120 to -125, he can ignore the IC design and prefer the opamp. I look at a few of the measurements in ASR and then use the dynamic graph in RAA for the impedance capacity curve, which was very helpful for the audio source I bought before.
@@Pete.across.the.street OK, don't have the temperature in the oven being controlled by measurements, ie. thermostat, and just guess, see how it comes out.
@@cengeb yeah, you can vary it at whatever you want most stuff 425 and just keep an eye on it. 400 a little longer will still get you there. People have been cooking long before there were thermostats
Are you sure those who truly base their purchasing off measurements alone even play at this level? ASR in particular only seems to exist to allow cheapskates to laugh at people who own more expensive gear that "measures worse". And since "science" is in the URL, the findings are infallible. Would any of the ASR acolytes spend more than the Topping FOTM (which you can coincidentally buy off sites openly sponsoring ASR)?
So if you dont believe existing measurements accurately describe sonic differences and performance then what measurements do you use and what should we be looking at to make better decisions. I mean you are engineers so you aren't reading runes to design equipment. You have an audio engineering paradigm and you measure the performance of your equipment by that paradigms metrics.
Please go review the video where BHK describes measuring various aspects of his electronics. Very eye-opening. And this from the legend in creating amazing electronics.
"Measurements people" think they can hear their perfect dac's 0.00001% THD over their amp's 0.05% and their speaker's 0.5% THD... Of course measurements don't really matter, unless they are really bad. Reputable companies that are so many years in the industry know what they are doing and know how to design something with musicality and signature, without relying on pure measurements.
Also they know how to sell stuff to people who aren't mathematically/scientifically minded. It's only logical of course, many audiophiles are guiled by story, fantasy, emotions etc. Which is kind of what music ends up being to be fair. But starts from mathematics :)
@@RennieAsh Indeed, but in the end of the day, those companies usually produce the better sounding products. I don't think that a $300 dac with -130dB distortion can sound as good a PS audio or other expensive brand dac with -110db THD or worse. I guess there are compromises in the design.
Why just produce numbers for people that do not understand them? The dishonest (or ill informed) reviewer will still post garbage and the audiophool will believe whatever. The audio community does not even really have the vocabulary to describe sound quality in a way that tells someone else how it will perform. It is easier to buy a bottle of wine and know what to expect than a DAC!
Exactly! How does it sound?! Bit like the guys into precision rifles, how does it shoot?! Sometimes we should be asking those kinds if they can hear those measurements wherever they read them. No one's ears are the same. Way too many variables to consider. What room, what room treatment, what cables, what power source, etc etc etc. Numbers on a piece of paper won't tell you shit if you're listening in a dungeon 🤣
Hopefully, the increase in population of people who care about measurements, is just a byproduct of an increase in audiophile gear popularity in general. I'm of the opinion that assessing music equipment based on measurements, is like assessing a painting based on how it tastes. But we're all on our own journeys.
It amused me that the measurement crowd thinks the few crude measurements that can be done are somehow comprehensive and telling, as if they cover every possible aspect of things and thus how things will actually sound. IMHO the audio world is about 50000000% more complex and involved than the crude simple measurements we have can possibly understand.
It reminds me of people really into grammar who swear by it but will get upset and antsy when they have to deal with the seemingly endless amount of exceptions
For most electronics what Paul is saying is right. For speakers though it is different. A lot can be inferred from measurements especially spinorama data. Highly recommend Erins Audio corner. He explains this in his speaker measurements in plain straight English. PS audio speakers measured quite good in one of his videos.
the value is in Eric's interpretation of the data not in the data itself. Nobody cares about the measurements, what We care as a consumer is how those measurements translates into sound and why that speaker is preferred over the other and in what cases. But this is something really hard to understand for the "audio measurement crowd".
@@net_news Really? Most consumers are still unaware about the value of measurements (maybe). But consider this: no one can audition hundreds of speakers, amps, dacs, CD players, etc before making an informed purchase decision. Anybody can check measurements of thousands of units without having to attend a show or going to a dealer (who can trick you with stuff that sounds good in their carefully staged rooms), in a short period of time. In general bad measurements mean low quality electronics too.
But there's still limitations. Erin said the Dynaudio stand-mounts at $8,000 were great sounding, bad measuring.
@@JohnHarnick THIS
I am not a measurement crowd guy, but Erin did a fantastic job with your new speakers and his review. He’s extremely picky and if he likes them, has literally no complaints, they must be amazing. I don’t mind the measurements, but at the end of the day, it’s about my room and what it sounds like. Period.
He does good reviews.
Erin does one thing right: he LISTENS then take the measurements and finally gives a subjective conclusion comparing what he heard and what he found in the measurements. That's what makes his reviews much more useful to the end user than ASR's reviews.
BTW I think Eric still focus too much in measurements, minutes and minutes talking about the measurements when what We really care about is his last 30 seconds conclusion, I mean, what We really want is his illustrated perception/opinion.
If I go to the doctor I want his opinion not a 40 minutes speech about how the cholesterol values have been taken. I pay the doctor to interpret those numbers and to give me a diagnostic and a "solution"!!! Why is so hard for these audio people to understand???
@@net_news I'm just the opposite, and that is why both our opinions are like assholes - we all got one. Use the fast forward slider.
@@trauma50disaster1 haha absolutely but IMHO Erin's opinion is the added value not the measurements. ASR does measurements too and many others, the difference is in the listening, the ilustrated opinion.
@@net_news I occasionally watch him. I am a Klipsch Heritage fan and he despises Klipsch. But they sound good to me. They sound amazing to me. I have a set of Fortes. Erin and I have talked about it at an audio show. If it sounds good, I could totally care less what that machine in his garage says. The machine is not going to be in my living room.
In regards to the doctor and the 40 minute speech on the cholesterol. He didn't make the videos for you; he made them for an audience and that audience wants that 40 minutes. I am just like you, I'll take a look at some of those measurements, but essentially I watch the beginning, some measurements, and then the conclusion. But Erin is catering to his audience.
I'm glad there's a mix of objective and subjective reviews out there. I can't often get to a retailer to listen to gear. I'm not super comfortable with how much impact these reviewers have on the market though. I imagine it must be very flummoxing for a company to fret over what a UA-cam reviewer might or might not say, and the effect that their review may have on sales. I'm glad PS Audio is going to respond and I think other companies should as well. They have every right.
It’s nice to see a manufacturer publish their own measurements, then have someone else measure and see if they match (they better… or maybe something went wrong with the testing)
The only reason I can think of for posting the entire AP litany is as Paul sorted out because there are some real bozo reviewers out there who don't know how to use even the most basic instrumentation.
eg?
Publishing Specs would improve sales Paul, as a 68 year old returning to Audio after 30 years I have bought 4 new Audio products based on ASR Tests and Measurements. I don't have time for foolish mistakes and money wasting at my age. I like your products and the fact that purchasing them will support people who reside/work in North America. Bottom line is, if you have competitive specs, I and a lot of other people will buy your Product. If people don't publish specs that is their right but I don't think this helps things. Would you buy a car that described an emergency 60Mph hard braking distance (usually specified in feet, ) as "adequate?" or " not too bad??" Keep Up The Good Work
ASR measurements mean nothing because they don't test enough samples of the same product to have meaningful data to support their conclusions.
The real mistake is not listening to something before you buy it. Specs only take you so far. Car example: An Acura and an Audi can have the same skidpad specs, but the Audi feels so much more connected to the road. You can't capture that feeling with the specifications. In the same way, reliability and robustness isn't captured by the specs either. So these measurement-only dudes on the web (who walk around with the smug superiority that they are more smart and more right than anyone else) can go circle-jerk themselves off, while those of us who understand that there is more to a product than just how it measures can enjoy our equipment, and not be disappointed in how something sounds despite having "perfect" specs.
Congratulations Paul with this decision. Looking forward to the numbers.
Paul, love your voice .
I bought a highly regarded amp from a well known British brand a few years ago (about £550 at the time) and whilst it sounds great it suffered from a noticeable buzzing both through the speakers and from the amp itself. The replacement, which I still have, buzzes as well, but less so. The company itself didn't publish data on SNR, probably for that reason. So I think that whilst measurements aren't everything, they do have a place and should be published.
The buzzing from the amp is often an issue with he mains supply into it - dc on the ac supply can cause that and that is why some manufacturers like Audiolab now sell DC blockers. Some amps are just more sensitive to it. I had to plug my old turntable into a separate wall socket (ie not the plug board all the other kit was plugged into) to remove hum from the speakers.
I don’t understand the technical reasons why, but it made a massive difference.
My ears is all I care about. How's it sound...anyhow good job Mr Rogers.
How is Hellmann's Mayo (seen over your left shoulder) used in your audio lab? Is this a trade secret?
Measurements are super interesting, especially when you look at them after listening to speakers/headphones and realize that is what you heard, but EVEN MORE INTERESTING when it does not show what you heard [soundstage, detail, imaging...what did I miss here? :D ].
That might be because YOU don't know how to correlate measurements with what you are hearing, so you you are definitely missing something here ;)
@@gurratell7326 Enlighten us then
@@gurratell7326 Can you? 🤣 I'll wait.
@@gurratell7326 How would you measure soundstage?
Micro linear stylus gives more detail for vynil and higher bandwith. Output transformer for tube amp with better core (lower loss) has more detail. Speaker with non-conductive voice coil also has more detail, higher Qms. Etc. I would say something is measurable.
I guess it's always important not only publish the measurements, but also the conditions. As Paul McGowan said: putting a 4volt signal into the inputs is kind of weird. Another big topic, which is super rarely done: Measurements for series scattering.
Not only is it important.. it's critical! I'd say it should be mandatory 👌🤗
Width, height, depth and weight are all the measurements you need.
Can it play quietly and LOUD.
I do need some data that PS Audio already provide (not all manufactures do) to answer your question. Buy, test, buy again, test, buy again, doesn't work for me. I did buy an amplifier with relative low power rating, because I could use that data to know (some maths needed) if enough was enough. Some old amplifiers or bad new ones output different tensions between channels. ¿Wouldn't be nice to know it before messing with room acoustics o with our own ears?
Yep. If your ears are tin
In today’s world Paul, when you’re selling a DAC for $8,000.00 when functionally equivalent options exist for a couple hundred bucks, the consumers wanna know what makes your worth the cost. Simple cost benefit analysis.
I love those 1kHz Sinad measurements that tell me EVERYTHING about that new DAC.
Just kidding.
Paul is correct.
Most measurement "values" today are all for noise and distortion which are now ridiculously low relative to what humans can detect.
However back in the 70's....Hirsh-Houck labs would publish scope photos of sine, square wave, tone bursts and phase analysis measurements
(qualitative, not quantitative measurements) all of which have virtually disappeared from the consumer equipment review bench.
Caveat Emptor !
they disappeared because is not a product differentiator anymore. All electronics measure well today, nobody cares. It's like trying to sell a computer showing it has a 1ghz CPU!! Hey it has 1ghz LOOK LOOK!! Well...that was a great differentiator 25 years ago but today even my phone have 1ghz cpu. Same happened with audio measurement.
Nice workshop/lab.
There is value in measurements - however I've often seen people ONLY take measurements into account when selecting equipment, and that will 100% lead you down the wrong path. The best measuring equipment is simply NEVER the best sounding equipment.
I am sticking with your amp. Very dynamic, plays my 3-way JBLs to significant levels. I listen to all these amp and speaker reviews on youtube and call my wife and say listen to these! She says yes but ultimately you are listening to your PS Audio amp and JBLs. Walks out of room.
Note, I bought your amp because you included slew rate.
Accurate measurements are fundamental to all electronic and acoustic designs. Without them, you are essentially blind throughout the entire engineering. Showing all measurement data to your customers is a good move.
Sure but to the point of this video, what significance will it have to the customer?? They take a look at it, and then what?
yeh and no - great measurements still dont indicate the product sounds great. at least it will indicating sounds good. but the tester can manipulate the results. also so many objective reviewers either dont do listening tests or do it in untreated rooms.
Hi there Paul. I hope that this finds you Well & reasonably Happy too.
Please Help Me Paul? Is there a mathematical equation to determine the power output required to drive 4 ohm Speakers with an 8 ohm (native) Receiver/Amp? I'm quite frustrated. I already have the Loudspeakers. Thank you for your time. Cheers...
If it's only rated to drive an 8 ohm load then 4 ohm is an overload, probably not a good idea
@@paulstubbs7678 Thank You Paul. I'm so ignorant, I wasn't certain that anyone made a Receiver/Amp specifically for 4 ohm Speakers? I was under the impression that 4 ohm speakers were higher end than the 8 ohm Speakers? True? OR Not? I apologize but I am a Noob. Thank You Sir.
@@shineon7641 The problem is 4 ohm speakers will draw more current that an 8, so if the amp is not rated for that it can bring on unexpected operation, often with greater distortion
@@paulstubbs7678 Thank You Paul.
I'm stealing Gaggle of Measurements for my next band name.
The issue is extremes. On one hand, relying solely on your ears with no measurements is bad. EQUALLY BAD is relying solely on measurements (even those that make sense), without judging with your ears. Listening tests short circuit the measurement folks, who completely ignore anything that can’t be explained mathematically. The problem with measurements in audio, is there are numbers, but no agreement on what numbers and values sound best.
Ah the holy grail for some, however not a good reason on selecting gear. Yes I do check specs but only after I have listened to the item. That is the final arbiter for me. Cheers Paul.
If you got the measurement equipment and got nothing to hide then post them so that way no one can question it.
It's an endless game. Your data will be a mean over several samples of your product. Those guys will take one sample of whatever, measure it, get different numbers than the ones you published, and call you a liar. So you go for third-party measurements. They will do it again, and claim you have paid the third-party to lie. And so on...
I wonder if the question was referring more to speakers.....?
How would Paul know that an independent reviewer made a mistake in measuring a certain parameter unless PSA had made those measurements also? So if PSA did make those measurements, why not publish them? Most audiophiles know what the audible threshold is for various differences in parameters and will easily be able to put the measurements into context.
People fail to realise that when you’re getting down into the 0.01% range… the room you measure in and devices nearby is a factor. To the point that any measurement is meaningless and you can easily put your thumb on the scale one way or another. At the same time I think subjective listening is a utter waste of time as a tiny gain difference or bias knowing which product is being used will bias the reviewer easily
Most of this is after the great dumbing down of America. By the 80s descriptions were pounding base, crisp highs, etc. Materials got cheap, foam plastic suspensions which turned to mush in 5 years. Frequency response with difference from flat gone. I did work at a loudspeaker manufacturer for a short time and designed a sample before the company was bought and moved. But for our line we had an anechoic chamber and environmental freezer for quality and harsh environment compliance.
I wouldn't even be able to understand how any of those measurements translate to what we hear
They most often don't.
That is not the issue of the science or the measurements themselves. That is the issue of your interest, or lack there of in them an in how to understand them.
@@crazydwarfer ok, give me a specific example then of what specific measurement or spec translates to what we hear subjectively. Can you guarantee that if I look for that specific measurement in another piece of equipment I'll hear the exact same thing or come to the conclusion that it sounds definitively good?
When I am talking about the measurements, I am specifically talking about the speakers frequency response. If you know the usual graph of frequency response of a speaker it is showing how linear it is in reproduction of different frequencies. Like, 20-60Hz is sub bass, 60-250 bass, 250-500 low midrange and so on. If the response is a flat line (which is never possible), then, the speaker will be outputting exactly what was recorded. However, if a bass region is higher - you'll get more bass, and so on. Like an equaliser on a boombox or in a PC music player. Thus, the release by Harman and many others have consistently shown that most listeners preferred the most neutral speakers from a selection of different ones. Therefore, you can predict just looking at the measurements, if the speaker will be liked with a high degree of confidence. Not all people will like it, but more than 80%. So, from 10 people, 8 will choose the most neutral one as a better sounding in a blind test. If the bass is weak, or instead overwhelming, it is seen in measurements, and you can correlate that to what you hear. Erin's Audio Corner measured abd reviewed one of the PS Audio speaker models and they measured very well, and that translates to their sound. Moreover, if you can measure the off-axis frequency response of a speaker and there is little variation from the off-axis, you know immediately that the speaker is easily equalised, and vice versa.
@@crazydwarfer uh, I'm pretty sure Paul in this video is not talking about their speakers but their equipment. Moreover, that does not explain any of the subjective qualities we experience like detail or soundstage (ie. Audiophile terms).
Listen, listen , listen!
I definitely agree with Paul here. Measurements of the kind that some reviewers do should not inform you about how good a product is. For instance, the distortion measurements for the cheap Class D amp Aiyima A07 Max is pretty good, but it says nothing about the sound signature.
For me it is often the sound signature that matters most, not its distortion level at 120 dB or whatever.
Amplifier should not add anything.
@@AudriusN you say that like it's a fact. I have a tube amplifier which is not neutral at all, it's "adding", and I like it very much. Even my DAC adds "warmth". My source and my speakers on the other hand are very neutral. It works well for me.
@@marcusbrsp it is a fact and facts don't care about your feelings. amplifier has only one job to do - take an input signal, amplify it and give it out without altering the FR and minimal possible distortion.
@@AudriusN ok, Audrius.
If you look at one of the premier testing UA-cam channels they have a list of best testing. The top is filled with average class D and AVR equipment. And brands like Pass Lab are rated low. Benchmark is one of the channels high ranking brands. The used market is filled with them. Try finding a BHK amp on the used market.
It's as they say : don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
"It's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission"
If majority of people are seeking measurements, you bet all these companies will be posting measurements lol
I think the problem with this is products will tend toward a similar sound with all the resonances and colourations squished to flat energetically, im always minded of "the dress" when people argue about perception and realities, the brain does its own thing with the signals, we will perceive differently.
Measurement forums are forums of mass hysteria, it's not audiophilia. It's not that I'm against publishing specs ... Paul states the rest better than I could.
Owning a tool and knowing how to use it are two different things. This applies from a hammer to measurement equipment and everything in between.
I have a NAD amp that came with nary. It even has a plastic front because they believe it doesn't need anything else.
That's as good as you need at the moment .. but when you decide you want to upgrade you will then notice the difference.. but until that time comes you will enjoy what you have & feel as though you have the best.. which is always the right way to understand music until you want to improve the way of listening.
@@clickbeetle2720 Another good one
Walk into a Rolls Royce dealer and ask for the base price. They don't have one.
So what metrics show actual performance? It is a wave afterall, it must be measurable.. and from my viewpoint all compoments should be neutral except maybe for one to add coloration.
Why would you want colouration? Surely that should be in the input signal?
@@RacingAnt Colouration comes in all forms; even a well measuring speaker but with wider dispersion can give colouration from room reflections
@@RacingAnt because dead neutral is hella boring and actually unrealistic compared to how instruments sound in a live performance
@@user-et4pf capture a live performance properly, without compressing and equalising the living daylights out of it, and a totally clean, neutral system will sound amazing. Whereas, a coloured system will only sound good on recordings lacking what the system adds. Neutral does NOT mean lifeless and undynamic. Modern, close mic'ed recordings and "perfect" production gives lifeless and undynamic.
@@RacingAnt well recordings are a whole other ballgame; even as an amateur musician myself I don't understand why people are chasing neutrality, maybe for synth pop and EDM is sounds fine but it is ghastly and disturbing with acoustic instruments. There are very few recordings like what you are talking about that I have ever heard, care to share which in particular you are talking about? There is a reason most musicians are wholly uninterested in the audiophile space, they know even the best recordings don't sound like themselves when playing live so who cares, and adding more neutral components to the mix only further contributes to an overly clinical sound, sterile would be the word I would use. Even EQ can't save such systems, or recordings.
The Problem with measurements is that you have to understand them completely and understand the context completely
And also the sonic qualities which are impossible to measure such as image precision.
Measurements are a means to an end, saving time and money in design work. They do not replace listening.
It does become a slippery slope where the customer simply orders the best looking charts they can afford. So much more goes into putting together a really enjoyable system.
I think full specs should mandatory to publish by producers. And they also should be standardized in some way. Especially when it comes to speakers and subwoofers. Data such as frequency response graph, SPL graph, group delays and distortion are crucial. Do you imagine selling a car and don't publish it's fuel consumption, top speed or acceleration?
Please give me a properly-conducted set of measurements and trust me not to use that as the sole basis of my purchasing decision. The measurements sidebar in Stereophile is just that, a sidebar, but still a very useful perspective into the engineering decisions that a company has made in the service of (ultimately) subjective enjoyment.
PS Audio products always sound better with a bit of Helmans Mayo ;-)
If a speaker measures well it's likely to sound decent however what frequency measurements don't show us the resolving nature of a speaker that's where I leave the measurement camp and go hang on let's listen and compare alongside measurements in conjunction to come to a conclusion. I like Danny at gr research's ideology when it comes to measurements and subjective thoughts.
Nothing tops a great topology...based on logic and experience. Designers may have to test parts for values, noise inductance, etc. But testing was used a lot in the past 60 years because of cheap parts and flawed topologies,, IMO...
There was a commentary by Jim Austin in the latest Stereophile that regarded measurements and a PS Audio product. nothing terrible but something that may need to be addressed by Paul which may have been the motivator to read this letter.
Can someone tell me this.. How do I sit & listen to measurements .. really.. I just want to listen to music which suits my ears.. So if I'm listening to measurement I can also listen to the music.. Lets not get to difficult for the young people who want to listen to music without holding a measuring tool of some kind to understand music ???? I'm 75 this year & this type of music listening is far beyond me to enjoy what I love .. & that's just plain Rock& Roll 😂🤣🔊🎧🎸🎹🎶🎵🎼
I will try, because you completly don't get it. You don't listen to measurements. Measurements are "the scientific and objective language describing of what you are hearing". You can describe your experience as for example bright, loud, and clear. And the problem is your "loud" can be not so loud for someone else, your "bright" can be rather dark to others. Our common language is not precise enough to describe such a things in objective manner. Imagine situation when you reccomend set of speakers to your friend who want to play loud. He buys it and is immediately dissapointed and calls you with grudges: "you said it can play loud and I can't hear a thing". Because "loud" for him is 100dB and for you is 90dB. You said those speakers are loud and you were honest. For you they were. That's why we need obligatory measurements in audio world. Just like we have with tires or refrigerators.
Great salesman.
3rd parties who measure your equipment incorrectly … “happens all the time”
I’ve been reading re hifi on and off since 1978 … more than 40 years. in magazines, on many websites, videos from dozens of channels from more than eight countries. And Ive been in a large active Audio Club for 20 years
I’ve never heard that from anyone
these people who publish wrong measurements … how many examples can you give?
we need to see distortion in all harmonic frequencies especially in Low frequencies 20Hz
well I just disagree you can tell what a device is like by looking at its harmonics characteristics.
If you like the sound, forget the measurements. Measurements are required in the design process but consumers need to use their ears as that's what you end up using every day.
Which leads to another question. If you are, for example, a company who believes in applying low (or null) global feedback for achieving better sound, you are not going to be competitive in measures such as THD. So, how are you going to face this problem when publishing your measures?
Well if you don't use any negative feedback and hence it distorts more and have wonky frequency response the measurements will show that, nothing wrong with that as long as your marketing don't claim that yous amp or whatever have the clarity of angels and delivers exactly "what the artist intended" then go ahead. It is okay to sell and like bad measuring stuff, just don't claim it's something it's not.
Personally I wouldn't ever buy something like that, especially for audiophile prices since it's fully possible to build those kinds of things for the price of a McDonalds meal.
@@gurratell7326 Well, while I was not saying that I'm a fun of global feedback-less designs, I'm afraid I need to correct you here. It's exactly the contrary. Putting a global feedback loop corrects whatever crappy circuit design you may come up with.
Making a circuit work without global feedback is the real arena where only the great designers can play. Only afterwards, a small feedback may be eventually added as the icing in the cake.
For a price of McDonalds meal, you can make an op-amp amplifier having 0.000001% THD. Instead, making a discrete circuit design stable without global feedback will cost you a portion of Kobe meat. 😉
@@gurratell7326 Well, while I did not mean to say that I'm a fan of global feedback-less design, I'm afraid I have to correct you here.
Indeed, very often the global feedback is used to fix crappy designs of all sorts. It's just so easy to cover all non-linearities with a NFB loop.
Designing a circuit which is stable without global feedback is the real challenge. And only after having achieved this goal, you can add a small amount of global feedback as the icing in the cake.
With the price of a MacDonalds meal you can for sure put up an op-amp based amplifier with global feedback having a 0.000001% distortion.
Designing a discrete circuit which is stable without feedback will cost you portion of a Kobe meat meal. 😉
Sometimes, I get the impression that some of the audio reviewers don’t really know what they’re doing. For example, when it comes to speakers, I’m under the impression that those sorts of measurements are irrelevant due to the room.
Indeed, and some even have a reasoning for that: A good loudspeaker should sound good in every room (even a clumsy one).
absolutely!! You are hearing your room not Eric's pseudo anechoic measurements.
@@net_newswho is Eric?
@@commane21 Erin sorry
@@net_newsand then audiophools start changing cables, switches, routers instead fixing the room.
Would you fly on a plane built without measurements? Airline companys buy planes based on specs, same with people buying cars, and appliances, measurements matter. What are you hiding, specs matter, measurements matter.
Would you fly an integrated amp?
@jmtennapel airlines are not allowed to discriminate
I have never, not ever, listened to music with an oscilloscope. I use my ears every time.
Exactly... measurements are quite academic... Listening is all that matters.
When combined with listening measurements can be quite useful for the designer. If there is an issue with the sound measurements can be useful for homing in on the problem.
For the consumer specifications are pretty close to meaningless. If it sounds better, it is better.
@@nathanevans6277 Correlating what you hear with measurements is a very good way of optimizing your system though, and you also learn a lot by doing this.
If you say amplifier X has better "sound stage, depth, etc." than amplifier Y how will you show that to someone who will say "no sh*t, Sherlock, Y is better"??
@@AudriusN You measure crosstalk. Though you need crosstalk at something like -30dB or more before it is a problem, which almost no amplifier in the last 50 years have had, sooo saying that amplifier X has better sound stage than amplifier Y is just pointless because an amplifier really doesn't have any soundstage. It just plays whatever soundstage is on the record and then the speakers and room take care of the rest.
I can use a job… ❤
"Got to defend yourself out there" - I think that is going to be a losing battle. You are more likely going to appear to validate arguments that are dubious, and end up getting embroiled in further discussions with people who are probably just out to promote themselves.
It's the same thing that happens in the political arena. 'Nuff said.
The next thing you know these people are gonna start wanting companies to post statistically significant test results for double-blind testing 😂
Don't temp them 😜🤣
They would never do that. Because if they were, in fact, statistically significant, the audio market bubble would implode. This market thrives on subjectivity presented as untestable dogma. Whose going to buy a $1000 power cable made by ancient monks in Peru if a randomized double blind test shows that no experts can hear a difference?
They will want null tests as well
Ooh the horror, not a single customer would want that! You're crazy 🤣
Could i recommend or beg you to start posting thd number for 20 to 20000hz full range and not the bs 1kz number everyone is chasing. Don't gibe a single f. About 1khz if your 20kz thd is 100 times more. The thd spec should be 20hz to 20khz and at full power, otherwise its just marketing.
I'm in two minds over this. Mind 1: If it's not posted, what are you trying to hide? Mind 2: Something that measures badly may sound great, and something measures well might sound bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, if you're trying to selling audio equipment.
It's a bit like ICE cars. They publish only peak horsepower and torque numbers. Even if these are high, there's a lot being left out, such as over what RPM ranges those arrive, sustain, and drop off. A higher horsepower car may actually be slower than a lower horsepower car. That's why more detailed information is required. And yet, just because a car is actually faster, it may feel horrible to drive because it handles poorly.
Cars and audio are so ridiculously similar. Divided on which specs matter, which brands are the best, and both are filled with snake oil and deceptive marketing.
It is good to see that Mr Gowan has finally accepted that measurements are important in selecting a product.
It makes no sense to confuse the non- technical potential customer with out of spec testing. I can see why any individual might run up the input beyond spec just to see what happens but what sort of justification is there for a professional doing that? Maybe they’ve been re-living the’60s (inhaling) and want to feed their guitar preamp into the hi-fi equipment believing that they can be the “new Hendrix” with some new and never before heard type of distortion.
Sometimes the best measuring audio devices end up sounding the worst. Go figure 🤔
Give an example please
Sure. The Topping A90 and Massdrop AAA789 headphone amplifiers sound unnatural and lifeless 👍
@@warrensnook and is there a way to determine that objectively?
The real question is do the measurements even matter that much? Do human ears really function like a digital microphone?
They do not.
Agreed. Choosing components is largely subjective so how they sound is more important. Also, and with all due respect, how many people would understand the majority of measurements, myself included. I understand the importance of some measurements when it comes to system matching, such as a power amplifier’s output and speaker sensitivity but I would be very surprised if the majority of measurement differences are audible.
Check out Floyd Toole's book on Psychoacoustics, it's all there. The research is there. Sean Olive, Todd Welti, Anthony Grimani on acoustics. All the sound reproduction gear engineering is based on scientific research and principles. Why wouldn't it be measurable, and explained in a scientific way? Audio is not some magic - its a propagation of sound waves in the air exiting our ears. It can be measured, calculated, and our preferences as the listeners predicted with a high degree of confidence, which is confirmed by the blind listening test over and over again.
I think many of them are people who are simply attracted to numbers, in this case numbers that claim less distortion = better. I think then there are those that claim they might hear differences, even though the distortion numbers are well beyond human hearing, and some just sleep better at night that their music has less distortion whether they believe they hear it or not.
Some of it depends on what you measure and if you're using the right measuring tool.
For instance a bad amp could show bad measurements on the bench, but you wouldn't see it while measuring with a microphone in your living room (you could still hear a differences when comparing amplifiers though).
The same example could be made for speakers, there's even a couple of known brands with drivers that typically measure quite badly on a bench, I'm not sure how they measure with a microphone (I can't recall seeing frequency response of the whole speaker) but people don't seem to mind paying top dollar for them. Some people even like things that measure badly, like tilted frequency response, it's a quick sale with forward placing sound (and a headache for me after listening for a couple hours).
We not only need to be able and measure more accurately than the specification we're trying to meet (some say "10 times better"), we also need to know what we're looking for (audio system have a lot of stuff happening, we're way past cutting of a 2"x4" to an exact length), then there's psychoacoustics which opens up a barrel of worms here...
What Paul McGowan thinks about publishing specifications for PS Audio equipment is not relevant; as he acknowledges in this video, a significant percentage of the marketplace wants to see specifications, and this has forced manufacturers to comply. Whether you or I think the measurements are relevant (audible) is up for debate, but that is not the really the issue any longer. IMHO, too many people complaining about sites like Audio Science Research are upset because something they own measured poorly and got a bad review.
@2:12 ...😅
You have to pry my Audio Precision from my cold hands you young man.
8:58 et - GM P ! All I have to say is there are scientists and there are audiophiles, never the the Twain shall meet 😄 The Amirs of the world just don’t get it
I love the work benches in front of a window approach ,nothing beats natural light for working.
Measurements don't tell the whole story. They are an indication of accuracy not how things sound sonically. Take 20 different amplifiers, they all may measure flat, but do they sound the same??? No, probably not.
With speakers it may be more helpful to have measurements, but even then, the room and placement have more effect than people realise.
I have two measurement tools for all of my audio equipment. 👂👂 It's the only true way for me anyhoo. 👍🎶
100 % agree with that my friend🙂👌👂
In reality you do not listen with just your ears. It is a whole body/being thing. We are an amazingly complex and capable sensory being covering -more than- just our 5 primary senses.
The audio "I swear I've heard the difference" crowd
There is research showing undisputed correlation between measurements and what trained and untrained listeners think is good sound. So to claim that measurements say nothing about the performance is really outrageous misinformation.
When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind: it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science, whatever the matter may be. (Lord Kelvin)
High-end audio has failed to publish accurate specs, much less complete measurements. The less they provide, the less I want to buy from them. I want to do business with honest companies that demonstrate good engineering.
your hifi gear may have a linear response but your perception dont
Cabinet resonance is unforgivable for +$5000 speakers. Frequency suck outs are unforgivable. The reality is that 9 out of 10 speakers are flawed engineering.
ASR is a gimp dungeon for creeps who touch themselves to graphs
Maybe get some education to learn how to read graphs.
I love ASR's work but people thinking that a "better measurement" translates directly in a better sounding speaker/dac/whatever are WRONG. Absolutely WRONG.
There are plenty of products measuring well (most modern products do) but sounding horrible and lifeless. That's something you know when you have real EXPERIENCE with audio products. Taking buying decisions viewing graphs and measurements is the perfect recipe for a disaster. I know because I committed those crimes.
how to know and tell which product sounds more and which less "lifeless"? believe someone's tales?
@@AudriusN yes, someone you trust
@@net_news no, it's the same as asking is food too salty or spicy.
@@AudriusN if you share a similar taste that question can be answered
@@net_news typical audiophile round and around. i can tell you that a fancy butique 250kg amplifier is compared to an amp from 10 Eur no-name desktop speakers. and you should trust and throw that overweight garbage in the metal recycler.
I think that measurements for loudspeakers are now complete nonsense. The distortion of your room is much more than the measurements that are looked at. It's actually better to look at how enjoyment you get from the speaker. When looking for headphones may different. Because the range of impedance is now very wide. Even if we only include over-ear headphones that require excessive power there is a value between 14 ohms and 300 ohms. At this point, looking at how the amplifier reacts to these impedance, whether it can provide a stable voltage and whether it can deliver the output power specified by the company without excessive gain makes you an informed consumer. Because companies still do this trick to cheat. It is especially important to look at how the amplifier reacts to low and high impedance. The issue here is not distortion, but whether the amplifier will turn off while driving the headphones. Seriously, there are people who experience this even with very popular amps. In addition, you need to pay some attention to the measurements because you don't want to use a bad amplifier output because there is no room whim in the headphones. That's the order of importance for me;
Crosstalk: when this is bad, the headphones don't make any sense, you only get the sound from the front. It also gives an idea about the manufacturing process of the circuit.
12-300 ohm voltage and current outputs: This is also very important because an amplifier that is not capable here is likely to shut down even after half an hour of listening. Even if this doesn't happen, you can hear popping and cracking sounds while knob at 2 or 3 o'clock. Because at some point you have gone beyond the current or voltage limit that the amplifier can deliver.
SNR-DNR: I look at these because headphones have better transient response than loudspeakers due to the size advantage and the elimination of room capriciousness, which raises the standard a bit. Of course, I'm not overdoing it, 100dB DNR and -90 or -100dB THD should be enough.
Before that I look at how the circuit is designed because that's the key. The crosstalk can change according to the design anyway. I prefer to have an IC instead of an opamp because the stage is deeper and wider and the high frequency sounds more natural than an opamp. No matter how much I look at ASR, this is where I disagree with him because he cares so much about the measurements that when it goes from -120 to -125, he can ignore the IC design and prefer the opamp.
I look at a few of the measurements in ASR and then use the dynamic graph in RAA for the impedance capacity curve, which was very helpful for the audio source I bought before.
Bake a cake without measurements, or bake a pizza without measured set temperatures etc, and measured ingredients. Measurements matter
Not really. If you add an extra piece of peperoni or a little extra sugar, it's not really changing anything
@@Pete.across.the.street OK, don't have the temperature in the oven being controlled by measurements, ie. thermostat, and just guess, see how it comes out.
@@cengeb yeah, you can vary it at whatever you want most stuff 425 and just keep an eye on it. 400 a little longer will still get you there. People have been cooking long before there were thermostats
@@cengeb
All you have to do is read most label directions on a product to be baked and they will tell you "Oven temperatures vary."
@@Mark-lq3sb better ovens vary less, temperature regulation matters. get better equipment. Consistent results is because of a better controlled oven.
Are you sure those who truly base their purchasing off measurements alone even play at this level?
ASR in particular only seems to exist to allow cheapskates to laugh at people who own more expensive gear that "measures worse". And since "science" is in the URL, the findings are infallible.
Would any of the ASR acolytes spend more than the Topping FOTM (which you can coincidentally buy off sites openly sponsoring ASR)?
So if you dont believe existing measurements accurately describe sonic differences and performance then what measurements do you use and what should we be looking at to make better decisions. I mean you are engineers so you aren't reading runes to design equipment. You have an audio engineering paradigm and you measure the performance of your equipment by that paradigms metrics.
Please go review the video where BHK describes measuring various aspects of his electronics. Very eye-opening. And this from the legend in creating amazing electronics.
@@jerry6789 link please.
"Measurements people" think they can hear their perfect dac's 0.00001% THD over their amp's 0.05% and their speaker's 0.5% THD... Of course measurements don't really matter, unless they are really bad.
Reputable companies that are so many years in the industry know what they are doing and know how to design something with musicality and signature, without relying on pure measurements.
Also they know how to sell stuff to people who aren't mathematically/scientifically minded. It's only logical of course, many audiophiles are guiled by story, fantasy, emotions etc. Which is kind of what music ends up being to be fair. But starts from mathematics :)
@@RennieAsh Indeed, but in the end of the day, those companies usually produce the better sounding products. I don't think that a $300 dac with -130dB distortion can sound as good a PS audio or other expensive brand dac with -110db THD or worse. I guess there are compromises in the design.
Golden-ears say they hear the difference between red and orange sleeved cables, wooden and metal volume knobs.
I think I've read enough. I'm going to go and actuality listen to some music for a while.
Why just produce numbers for people that do not understand them? The dishonest (or ill informed) reviewer will still post garbage and the audiophool will believe whatever. The audio community does not even really have the vocabulary to describe sound quality in a way that tells someone else how it will perform. It is easier to buy a bottle of wine and know what to expect than a DAC!
Exactly! How does it sound?! Bit like the guys into precision rifles, how does it shoot?! Sometimes we should be asking those kinds if they can hear those measurements wherever they read them. No one's ears are the same. Way too many variables to consider. What room, what room treatment, what cables, what power source, etc etc etc. Numbers on a piece of paper won't tell you shit if you're listening in a dungeon 🤣
its very simple. being transparent about your product doesnt sell them, but marketing does
we'll see about that tekt... ps audio
I love the internet. Alternate "facts" universe is in play. Keep plowing forward with "real" facts, Paul.
People who pay too much for audio equipment looking to justify their purchases by ridiculing measurements.
Hopefully, the increase in population of people who care about measurements, is just a byproduct of an increase in audiophile gear popularity in general. I'm of the opinion that assessing music equipment based on measurements, is like assessing a painting based on how it tastes. But we're all on our own journeys.
Ears are better than measurements....
TRUMP
OK, so now we just have to wait for Paul to endorse Trump before the 2024 elections. I am negotiating the odds with my bookie 😆
ASR is a cult.
It amused me that the measurement crowd thinks the few crude measurements that can be done are somehow comprehensive and telling, as if they cover every possible aspect of things and thus how things will actually sound. IMHO the audio world is about 50000000% more complex and involved than the crude simple measurements we have can possibly understand.
It reminds me of people really into grammar who swear by it but will get upset and antsy when they have to deal with the seemingly endless amount of exceptions
A sad day for the subjectivists and snake oil fans..