Deciphering the Herculaneum Scrolls 📜 🌋
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- Опубліковано 26 лют 2024
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The Herculaneum Scrolls, a collection of more than 1,800 papyrus scrolls found in the preserved ruins of Herculaneum, near Pompeii, entombed by the volcanic ash of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 AD, cannot be opened with destroying them, since they are fully carbonized. But a new team of researchers has begun deciphering the scrolls without needing to open them! It's an amazing blend of futuristic technology and archaeology, and is the factual basis of my fictional novella for the StoryLearning Latin course.
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The Herculaneum Scrolls, a collection of more than 1,800 papyrus scrolls found in the preserved ruins of Herculaneum, near Pompeii, entombed by the volcanic ash of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 AD, cannot be opened with destroying them, since they are fully carbonized. But a new team of researchers has begun deciphering the scrolls without needing to open them! It's an amazing blend of futuristic technology and archaeology, and is the factual basis of my fictional novella for the StoryLearning Latin course.
I guess you are aware that these charred scrolls are written mostly in late Greek, not Latin...
Wont be in Latin, you do realize that Latin was put together to dumb the people down same with English don't believe me jump down the rabbit hole and see...
Everything would have been Greek or the original Aramaic Hebrew all with much deeper meaning than anything Latin and English could give❤❤❤❤❤
Those scrolls, and the urge to help develop technology to read them, were a strong part of my drive to major in Classics and engineering and to continue studying beyond undergrad. Sadly, life, work, taking care of family, took me away from the path I would have wanted. At least I knew there were passionate people pursuing that dream... It's going to be wonderful seeing these time capsules open.
Now that the prize money has been distributed, there is less incentive to restrict access to the scanned scrolls and to the artificial-intelligence software that's used to help decipher the scrolls. I can imagine a time when both the scans and the software are made available to the general public so that scholars anywhere can participate in the process of decipherment and thus accelerate the process.
(I recall the lone eccentrics who deciphered "lost" ancient languages, such as Jean-François Champollion who deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphs and Yuri Knorozov who deciphered Mayan hieroglyphs.)
@@kevinbyrne4538id pay to hear you keep talking! 😊
Philodemus would be happy that his works are being rediscovered after 2000 years.
what a time to be alive, it took hundreds of years to get there. Thank god they just waited until the technology was ready and didn't just tear them apart hoping for some scraps of words. now finger's crossed there is some good, missing stuff, possibilities are endless... histories (so many missing books of Polybius), biographies, scientific texts, languages (Claudius' book on Etruscan)...
What a time to be alive it would be back then too. Imagine that a small town had such a huge school/library of philosophy. What must it have been like to live in Alexandria or Pergamum. Nowadays philosophy is almost a non-existent activity, reserved to very few professors around the world that almost no-one knows about or listens to.
Claudius's work on the Etruscan language is perhaps the most tantalizing prize for me. It would revolutionize our understanding of 'early' European history if we could translate Etruscan fully. (Even if it's unlikely we find it there though.)
But that's a work we know we're sadly missing: what about something we don't know we don't have? There could be something that truly is amazing.
While some might be conservative enough to point out that the most important works are the ones that are likely to be transmitted and survive to the present, that is not always certain. I cannot find a source to prove this, but I've heard that in England in the Middle Ages, there got down to be only 1 surviving copy of Beowulf, before eventually more copies were made. It's very possible for the most important works to be lost. I hope we find some of them.
Actually, many of them were destroyed or damaged in an attempt to decipher them.
some were burned as fuel, the original diggers thought they were wood
This comment thread slightly traumatized me. That’s wild some were destroyed and burned. Life & History is so fragile 😮💔
It's a shame that 700 scrolls were destroyed. You'd think that, after attempting to unroll two or three, they'd figure out that, maybe, that wasn't such a good idea. Of course, expecting them to think, "Let's just leave these alone. Maybe in three-hundred years or so somebody will figure out how to see inside of them," might have been a bit much to ask.
Indeed!
Most weren't destroyed at least after father Piaggio's machine was adopted as a replacement to chopping the open. Of course from time to time some new method for opening them was tried out - occasionally with disastrous results.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
May Sappho's poems be one of the scrolls. It would be the greatest literary discovery of the century
I am preparing for uncontrolled eruptions of tears and screams for what they might uncover 🥹
Or lost comedy and tragedy as well as histories, how amazing
I read that they're not expecting any literary masterpieces from the library as the owner of said library was a stuffy uptight guy apparantly
I hope some Greek classics like the other two Prometheus epics can be rediscovered too, so here hoping for that.
For a second, without my glasses, I thought you wrote "May Sappho's penis be one of the scrolls. It would be the greatest literary discovery of the century". Now that would be interesting !
This has been the most exciting written archeology discovery since Rosetta stone was decoded.
I told this newly found discovery to everybody I know that we can read books from 2000 years ago basically from a library from Pompeii (Herculenium) but no one cared, thank gosh you popped up in my feed! ❤ LOVE YOU BRO! Thank you for sharing!
Keep being fascinated and enthusiastic! It'll take you very far in life❤🎉
It is AWESOME 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Waiting for Aristotle's book on Comedy (still hoping)
If we discover additional works of Aristotle and Plato. They are hundreds of them. Imagine the literary wealth.
We have everything that Plato wrote, his corpus, alone among the ancients, is complete. There are philosophers like Democratis, Empedocles, and Antisthenes, who were prolific writers, but everything they wrote, other than a few fragments, were lost. Maybe not!
@@earthjustice01 No, we quite literally don't. From Plato's works, only a minority of his dialogues are saved as a whole. The vast majority are known only in name.
For Aristotle, his works were over 200. And we know only something that amounts to a bit over 10% of the total, and of those only a few are entirely saved.
For Pre-Socratic philosophers and writers, most of them are only known in name. Only one, Hesiod, has two works saved in their entirety.
@@Pan472Name me some of these lost Platonic dialogues please. This is the first I've heard of them.
They will decipher the scrolls and they will all turn out to be invoices for the sale of olive oil
This is what terrifies me.
🤞Claudius' histories🤞Claudius' histories🤞
Claudius' Etruscan dictionary🤞
It would be Martial's shit-post lol
I really needed this video today. Sometimes what you need in life is to have someone exuberantly share his joy with you.
🤞lost works of Ovid or Claudius' history of the Etruscans... it's gonna be tax-records isn't it
Mostly Epicurean philosophy as a matter of fact.
Grammar of Etruscan and Augustus' autobiography are my top hopes.
too sad Livy wasn't a big pilosopher@@trax-3987
700 have been unrolled and destroyed? You'd think that after one was unrolled and destroyed, someone would have said, “Well, this doesn't work, so let's never do that again.”
Yes, just fragments; perhaps still legible to some degree
If I remember right, part of the training data of the algorithm comes from unrolled scrolls.
300 years ago, it was probably quite hard to imagine the invention of something like a 3D CT scanner. I would assume they didn't think there was as much to lose as we now know there was.
If it makes you feel better they're probably more scrolls buried in unexcavated areas of Pompeii.
Please keep updating us with translations when you can on any “new” ancient texts! I wonder if we’ll get any insight from how the library was organized if it was (hoping the more interesting texts are the ones we haven’t destroyed).
Here's hoping for the missing books of Livy!😊
Luke is SO EXCITED! A kid in a toy store!
(So am I!)
It is a wonderful achievement, but unfortunately there are not 1800 intact scrolls as many have been destroyed in attempts to unroll them before. I think the true number of intact scrolls is c. 300. If a book length text would take about 3-4 scrolls that suggest that somewhere near 100 new books will be 'virtually' unwrapped and read in the near future- a huge increase in the number of ancient texts available to us. And then, one can hope that archaeologists will dig further in the unexcavated parts of the Villa where it is very likely there remains the main library of Greek and Latin texts. That could be 100s if not 1000s of scrolls, with a treasure trove of lost texts and hitherto unknown ancient literature. One thing I find particularly exciting is that there was a bust of Sappho in the excavated rooms (now in the Naples museum) which may indicate that her writing was particularly prized by the Villa's owners, and so perhaps there is a copy of the 9 books of her poetry edited in the Alexandrian library in Herculaneum. That would truly be a wonderful find!
It truly would be!
I hope they will find the complete Historiae of Sallustius, Cicero's Hortensius and Caesars "De lingua Latina".
Me too
I'm hoping something on Etruscan will be in there. Maybe Claudius' "Tyrrhenica" dictionary... can we hope for a miracle?
Unfortunately, that is improbable. The decifered text are from Philodemus of Gadara, an Epicurean. It is speculated that the room excavated in the villa might have been the personal library of said Philodemus.
There is some hope ther might have been another library room within that villa, but it has not yet been found and there are no excavation planned.
@@thiloreichelt4199 It is also worth considering that we often have a limited perception of someone's personality from such a distance. While we know a lot about Philodemus, we also may have many things we do not know. Perhaps he had even greater interests and studies outside of his usual subjects. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but it's conceivable, at any rate.
@@thiloreichelt4199 I think there is a good chance of non-philosophical texts being part of the current collection of scrolls: there was a (very damaged) copy of Ennius's poetry and also a copy of Seneca the Elder's History of Rome (also disintegrated)... So we may find lots of lost Latin and Greek historical and literary works as well as lots of Greek philosophy :)
What an amazing news!
I wonder how many of these "libraries" there were in all the cities of the empire.
We lost them all.
Indeed. The loss is heartbreaking
I ADORE your channel, Luke! Every time I see that you've uploaded something new, it makes my day!
Thanks so much! That means a lot.
I have been waiting years for this news! 🎉
The heavy sadness I carry for the lost scrolls of the library in Alexandria as well as the initial Herculáneum scrolls that were mistaken as charcoal and used as fuel is lifted by the hope of what will be found with these new scanning techniques. What an incredibly exciting time to be alive.
Thank you, Luke, for sharing the fruits of your excitement and interest.
I can’t wait to share this news with my children at school pick up today.
The evening before last, my 11 year old daughter and I were discussing the structure of the Pantheon, both it’s size, integrity, and location. After retrieving and opening the box of old photographs from some of my travels to Rome, she found my small pumice stones that I picked up on the ground in Pompeii. My 14 yo daughter and 9 yo son then joined in the lively discussion about the photos I got of little shops and mosaic floors of the homes I passed while strolling the streets of this preserved ancient city.
I am so grateful that you share your passion for the ancient world on you tube.
I was lucky to have an amazing Latin teacher my freshman year of high school. He loved the language, but left an even bigger impression by his passion for all things of the Ancient Roman world. He shared the history and culture in a way that inspired me to continue to study and consume everything available for the past 30 years with no end in sight.
Thank you for providing my children’s generation with exciting passionate learning medium. They love your videos and have utilized them as supplemental study aides for their class work.
My 14 yo daughter uses llpsi for her 8th grade Latin class and enjoys studying with your videos. My 11 yo 6th grader had really been struggling with her first Ancient Greek class and after finding your videos for her text book “Athenaze”, she is enjoying the language more and improving her skill. I especially love when my 9 yo 3rd grade son watches your videos with me and gets upset and corrects the pronunciation of your Latin. This provides opportunities to discuss the differences between Classical and Ecclesiastical pronunciations and how neither is incorrect.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The other good news is that the several hundred scrolls they have are supposed to be only a sampling of many more yet to be excavated.
I'm very moved to hear that!
Exciting times we live in to see this beginning to happen. The little bit you translated about rare foods being most desirable really tracks with what I have read and cooked from Apicius.
Appreciate your content more when it includes books/scrolls and deciphering a text!
What a time to be alive!
That's a fantastic news !
Please keep us aware and share any information about the scrolls ans the translations if you have any more information to provide to us.
I'm pretty sure I would've never found out about the scrolls without you Luke. 1.8k!! Amazing. I hope by the time I get discharged from my draft next year, we will have news of, idk, a lost work of literature or history. GOOSEBUMPS!
I'm on the edge of my seat for this to begin with, but your enthusiasm is contagious! So excited for this!
The human love of novel foods is a wonderfully universal thing to have for a first translatable text. Though, all this talk of novel foods and rolled-up scrolls does leave me wanting a lamb gyro.
"And the Scrolls have foretold
of black wings in the cold,
that when brothers wage war come unfurled,
Alduin, bane of kings, ancient shadow unbound
with a hunger to swallow the world!"
It's amazing what technology has allowed us to do! I've been keeping tabs on the scrolls for some time know and I'm so glad that progress has been made.
(also as a sidenote: what are your thoughts on the duolingo course on latin? is it sufficient?)
Duolingo’s advantage is that it gamifies learning (thus compelling interest) and exposes the user to some vocabulary. But it can only be supplementary to a primary course. I very much approve of supplements, and Duolingo, if used judiciously, can supply helpful additional learning.
Incredible! You can do the first audio book.
This is truly the most exciting thing I have heard in months. Keep us informed!!!
Years!
Amazing video on an amazing advancement which could lead to amzing discoveries! Thanks!
This is one of the best news I heard in a while.
Begging the Gods for some Aristotle or Sappho.
Or Pliny, or Sulla's autobiograpy (I would be interested to know what the man had to say for himself).
Basically any new text will be a blessing.
I would be so happy if they found another ancient architectural treatise that we could compare with Vitruvius!
As an Epicurean, I really hope there is the discovery of extant text from the Hegemon himself!
I want to read heraclitus' book _On Nature._ I hope they find it there.
That is phanomemenal!!! As so as the stone of Rosetta for the old Egypt Language. And to the finish give the Overture of Mozarts "Zauberflöte" in a historical recording.
Wow, they work fast on the uncovering. Last I heard was the scroll with "Purple" on it. So I consider those 5 % deciphering to be fast work.
Whoa, this is great. OK, Caesar's grammatical papers and the Etruscan dictionary. We are going to find you. Well, maybe not but the hopes are there.
My hope is they'll find the complete works of Sappho in that library.
tha workz
This gives me joy 🤷🏽♀️🌹❤️❤️❤️❤️ Yeah, I studied Latin in high school
From the article "Unlocking Antiquity" in City Journal: "The last 15 columns-about 5 percent-of the unwrapped scroll can now be read and are being translated by a team of classical scholars. Their work is hard, as many words are missing and many letters are too faint to be read. “I have a translation but I’m not happy with it,” says a member of the team, Richard Janko of the University of Michigan. The scholars recently spent a session debating whether a letter in the ancient Greek manuscript was an omicron or a pi."
"PITVITA ME TENET" (I've caught a cold)- Pompeian graffiti
Amazing! 300 scrolls and chances to find something truly special, and who knows how many scrolls are still hiding beneath the earth? Let's hope for a ridiculously large number.
We can hope!
The power of these Scrolls is beyond human comprehension. Only the dragonborn should...
Fun Fact: Heculaneum is simply the Latin Speakers way of saying:
Herakleion 🇬🇷 in Greek of Course
There are MANY "Herakleio" cities around the Med, on Crete island in Greece for example 💙
This is amazing news indeed! Imagine finding another great work on par with the Iliad after all this time. Great video as always. Any plans to do a Greek Uncovered? Thanks for all your amazing content Luke ❤
Thanks, Jason! It may be in the cards.
This is something really incredible as they scan the papyri and with the help of artificial intelligence decipher his content. Hopefully these ancient texts will show more evidences like misspellings that will allow us to have a more and more accurate view of the phonology of ancient greek.
That would be amazing! Latin too
Dear Mr. Rainiery,
What does "Intermediate" entail?
Does it mean that one is able to sort of read a language;
If any christian text emerged it would be sensational since by definition it would have been written in the Apostolic age.
It is highly unlikely any such texts would be discovered. At this time most Christians were usually illiterate and their beliefs were largely unknown. The saddest thing is that if it weren't for Christianity we would not have lost 90% of all classical literature... 😢
@@akouzi1Or maybe you are just stupid
I wonder how many are copies of writings that were thought completely lost in the fire of the Great Library of Alexandra? What an amazing technological advancement.
Thanks for some of your deciphering of the scrolls, Luke. I also heard the story on 60 Minutes. And, have visited the Getty Villa aka Villa dei Papiri numerous times since the '80s. The Herculaneum recreation in Los Angeles is as well, celebrating it's 50th anniversary this year.
Those scrolls are such precious insights into life in the early Roman Imperial era!
Thanks👍🏼
I like that you used ghost busters.. this very much akin to catching a ghost.
The worst thing about learning Latin is that every time you hear about some cool text from antiquity, it's written in fricking greek!!! 😂
Haha. I'm sure there will be plenty in Latin too; they just need to be scanned.
@@polyMATHY_LukeI hope so! But then, in time I'll just have to learn greek too!
Greek was the universal language of the ancient classical world, especially from the Hellenistic era onwards, i.e from the conquests of Alexander the Great onwards, and the main language in which most philosophy and history texts were written in, so you'd better start learning Greek asap. A good start is the Cambridge Reading Greek books and of course with help from the great information on this channel. Best wishes !
Hopefully they find a copy of Pliny the Elder's Histories.
Hey, In in Herakleion CRETE in Greece right now! 👋🏻
ΕΛΛΑΣ is Everywhere 🇬🇷
Imagine heating a record and rolling it into a scroll, taking X-rays and using AI to play the music.
Interessantíssimo.
Wonderful!😊
8:54 This is interesting. How big a volume of texts are we talking about precisely when referring to classical Greek and Latin? And what is the date defining the end of classical period for writers. The thing is, there are are plenty of writers worth reading even after that date, whichever date it is, but let's say there is such a date. If I understand correctly, Loeb's editions for example just span a few shelves. That's doable in a lifetime, even allowing enough time for other activities, including not only those necessary for survival (eating, sleeping, housekeeping etc.) but even some leisure time!
Using PHI and TLG you can get a sense of it.
Ah yes, I forgot about TLG@@polyMATHY_Luke. I'm not very good at using it because I seem to remember it requires you to log in every time which I find quite annoying. But I have to visit it again as it is a great website.
I don't think I knew about PHI, I'll have to check it out. Thank you for the suggestion.
I forgot to mention that the onset of long-sightedness will slow anyone down in this attempt, so if one aims to read all of the literature, an early start and an early target finish date is essential.
Right, a quick check on TLG reveals 5515 works@THY_Luke but these include late antiquity up to Middle Ages. I'm not sure it is fair to artificially exclude anything past a certain date, or even worthwhile. Let's say they're all classics. If we then assume one reads one work per day (I think that's fair given that some are not that long) this will take a mere 15 years one month and 6 days, roughly accounting for leap years being one out of every four.
So that's not a problem, one can even revise them 3-4 times in one's lifetime.
Of course that assumes learning ancient Greek and Latin first.
The real questions is, will one be able to remember most of all that?
The only problem I can foresee with this endeavour is if more scrolls from Herculaneum are discovered, deciphered and published in the meantime. Hmmm...
Cool stuff! You will no doubt do many videos about these as technology advances rapidly and we should get more long transcripts, so you can maybe drop in something more about why they are written in Greek, not Latin in some of them.
They need to unbury the rest.
Luke, is it possible to buy your novella without the class? I want to read it, but I already know Latin.
That's amazing, thank you for this. Did I see correctly? Was that the Byzantine c instead of the sigma that is being used? Was that in use as early as 79 AD?
Earlier even; it’s called lunate sigma, and it’s quite ancient.
These scrolls are much older than 79AD. Philodemus died more than 100 years before the eruption and some of the scrolls in his library are as old as 3rd century BC.
I have never seen youso excited! I hope you realise your dreams very soon.
I'm on Chapter 4 of the story now. It is a challenge, but is so much fun! It's taking me a long time, but I'm really enjoying reading something with "new" Latin vocabulary.
This is so incredibly exciting!
Be well, Lucius! Ēgo🫡 nos! I love you! Guesundheit!
What an amazing discovery!
By the way, Luke, do you have any video talking about the pitch accent in ancient greek?
I do! See the relevant chapter here: ua-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/v-deo.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you :D
Could you also make a video with more details about it like you did about each of some greek letters? How it evolved in time etc.
Well, these are great news! Αἰέν ἀριστεύειν... Εύγε!
I'm really hoping they'll find the works of some early Greek writers like Xanthus of Lydia, Hecataeus of Miletus and Hellanicus of Lesbos. 🤗
WOW, WHAT AN AMAZING PLAYLIST U HAVE...
HUMMM, THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE TRULY IS IN THE DRIVERS SEAT WITHIN ME❤❤❤❤
Incredible!
This is wonderful news! Where are there scrolls in similar condition? What might we learn? What works of the ancients will we add to our library?
I've been dreaming about this kind of thing for a long time. Someone finds a forgotten library somewhere and we can finally read authors we've never met. I will be amazing! Who knows?
Hey Luke! Are you planning on making something like LLPSI for Ancient Greek? It would be helpful for so many people.
I am indeed. In the meantime, try this approach: ua-cam.com/video/2vwb1wVzPec/v-deo.html
@polyMATHY_Luke Watched your video. Can you name like 4 core books to reap maximum benefit from this approach?
I know you've mentioned bits about Rustic Latin pronunciation here and there, but would you be willing to make a dedicated video about the Pompeiian pronunciation of Latin? I think it would be fun to learn to speak both Latin and Greek like a Pompeiian, haha.
It would be like speaking the Kansai dialects of 1st century Italy! めっちゃええやん! :P
I absolutely will some day. It doesn't differ markedly from Classical Latin Pronunciation.
Not only you are able to retrieve over 2000 years anchient scripts,but also rediscover old forgotten words that are lost to time. Now we are able to reinsert it in the dictionary.
This is super exciting news! :D
Good researching. This is the most I have read from the scrolls. I suspect they have been slow to release the contents because, this ML level of AI requires an expert to verify.
This is impatient of me, but I really wish we could get those scrolls they're working on now!
If I may ask, Magister, is there any guesses that you have about what they'll find? What're you most hoping for?
Thanks for making a video on this, Luke!!
I'd love it if they turn out to be something epic or historical work but I'd love it just as much if it was "just" something mundane like birth or census records, a collection of cook books or simply the ledger of some bath house.
The next _De Bello Gallico_ would be awesome but knowing Quintus Fabius Longinus spends a Sestertius every other Veneris on the cute Greek femboy masseur has a charm of its own.
A collection of recipes would hardly be mundane; more first-hand sources on the what and how of Roman food might not have the surface-level gravitas of some philosopher or historian's works, but they are consequential, informative, probably will teach us how to make at least one delicious old/new thing, and always welcome.
Start at 9:40 to hear what they say - very little is known so far.
Did you see the 60 Minutes, where there’s controversy on what the words are and who’s finding them. Thanks for doing what you’re doing.
Yup! It’s from 6 years ago, of course, and in any case the victor of the competitors are the team from the US.
So damn exciting
You know it!
FASCINATING
I hope they find the Hermocrates (a friend of Socrates), i.e. the lost dialogue of Plato, at least according to the PC game Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis 😀
i’m trying not to be annoyed about the destroyed scrolls. i know the previous historians were trying to do good, but i wish they had saved it for us to do with our magical technology!
I knooooow it's so unbelievably depressing...I need archeologists to start searching through the rest of the house and find more (perhaps this is false information, but I've heard that the house isn't fully excavated, and that more scrolls may lie somewhere nearby.)
I think i saw in the news media channel that they found in them the location of Plato's tomb.
Hoping for anything from the Eleatics!
LETS GOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Please can you translate the Septuagint XXL? If not do you know if a decent Ancient Greek translator? Thank you in advance!!
08:55 almost all Latin and Greek is covered by 500 Loeb books. Reading 1 per week means roughly 10 years to go through ancient spurces
Wouldn't it be wonderful if it were a lostplay vy Euripodes or a treatise by Aristotle. But, ii understand. It'd be wonderful if it were just a bunch of recipes
Wonderful and insightful video. However, I am afraid that most manuscripts in that Herculaneum library are written in Greek (Attic and Koine).
Only some that we know of; there is likely a whole Latin section still in there.