The Song of Achilles -Review
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- My review of the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller!
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May I annoyomously recommend you do a review on Once Upon A Book, in a YA Choose your own quest (adventure) novel, by Faith Colleen Weaver?
It would be super lame to have to read this version in school in my opinion the original was a thousand times better
I love the review! I don’t especially love the link to Amazon. I know will be a bit more work, but links to independent bookstores that actually care about their staff (unlike Amazon) just go so much further to supporting the book reading community.
Casually dropping bi identification.... good on ya, Daniel!
What people come up with for views/subs...
(It was already "dropped" on his Twitter a while ago)
Anyone who complains about this book not telling all of the illiad should just read the illiad and that’s it lol
I don't mind the book "remixing" the Illiad, but what I do mind is that most of the choices Miller made to deviate from the original epic served to make The Song of Achilles more misogynist, taking agency away from significant female characters and making them weak, helpless, pathetic, and manipulative plot devices. And let's not even get started on Miller's bisexual erasure...
They'll be disappointed there too. The Illiad doesn't even tell the whole story of the Trojan War. Most of the famous bits aren't even in it. The Judgement of Paris, the Trojan Horse, even the death of Achilles, none of it is actually in the Illiad.
Poetry doesn't really engage me, so I wish there was a good retelling out there. Sadly, this isn't it.
@@IzadoraKatarina I really didn't see the women that way. I think it was a realistic way to show how women would have been treated back then.
@@ilincabogza if even a guy from "back then" (Homer) managed to portray his female characters more respectfully than a 21st century "feminist", i think there is a problem...
Daniel says the book is good - Nice
Daniel also says you should also go read the Iliad first - R E A L S H I T ?
-B
It’s an indie book from ancient times. Super low key. Written by this guy Mr. Simpson.
@@DanielGreeneReviews yeah idk after reading Tolkien the Iliad seems kinda... derivative? Like, the world-building is so thin, why are there no elves or dwarves???
@@DanielGreeneReviews that yellow guy?
Omg, it's great to see that two of my favourite UA-cam channels know each other
The retelling of Troy Story. Let's go. Honestly it was an interesting read. Though Daniel This book is kind of amazing in just how well they revised this. Though this is more like an Iliad side story. It's like the author asked "Remeber Achilles, the great unstoppable warrior, let's explore his love life". They made into a really engaging story. It's nice to see more lgbt+ representation in fantasy. Like with The Unspoken Name and the Ruin of Kings series.
I love this book. The writing style was gorgeous and the way Miller wrote Patroclus' devotion and love was beautiful. I however don't agree with you when you said that the flaws in the characters weren't obvious. They were blinding to me. The very fact that Patroclus looked and Achilles' actions with rose tinted glasses was a huge flaw in itself. Apart from that, Achilles' actions to me were unacceptable. They were as such when I read the Illiad the first time and I still say that now though this book actually managed to humanise his flaws more. For me, this book focused on how people can love even those who make huge mistakes. How love can blind you to them. How you keep loving that person despite what they do. You know it's not right, but that doesn't change how you feel. In my opinion Miller conveyed that brilliantly.
agreed
i couldn’t agree more ❤️
I completely agree. The prophecies were that Hector would be the death of Achilles, but Achilles was the death of Achilles and it was a very loud flaw that slapped us in the face in that chapter of the book. Amazing book either way. I really enjoyed it
@@ceciliamwanzah7429 Well, Hector was the internal death of Achilles when he killed Patroclus. But yeah, he only did that because Achilles was too proud
Disagree
I know you have reduced the number of reviews because they get fewer views but I just wanna say I absolutely love your reviews, they are my favorite videos of yours, I find many books from you, so I’m always excited to get more of these lol
What they said!! ^
Yeah..me too..but the only problem is that my TBR is so full..after watching more of the videos..
Agreed! Love these review vids
I agree! I´m also a fan of Merphy´s dual reviews
Yeah I think it’s to bad people in the book tuber community ironically won’t watch a book review but like unboxing videos wtf
Imagine having the balls to say "I'm gonna rewrite the Iliad" and succeeding. I'm so keen to give this a spin.
It is not a retelling it is just a romance with a greak historian paint
@@ericazahn9689 true and it's terrible.
@@redbloodbluemoon1423 definitely not
@@redbloodbluemoon1423 What part?
"and succeeding" lol most ppl in greece hate that book so
”I am made of memories”
That is all.
Agreed
A life is a not lived unless it’s filled with memories.
"Speak, then."
This line destroyed me
I have to say, mythology is one of the reasons I like epic fantasy.
100 emoji. Recently got into epic fantasy thanks to Daniel. before that I was just scouring the Web for any kind of mythology I could find. Now I still do that, but with epic fantasy as well
"Circe" by the same author is also phenomenal... I feel her writing has tightened up even more (if that's even possible) since "Song of Achilles", and you get to see some characters in that book cameo here.
I loved Circe even more
I read Circe before this. In my humble opinion this is a million times better
YA Homosexual smut is not tight writing buddy
I 10000% recommend checking out Circe after reading this one. It’s more of an original story and it’s GREAT
Yes! I really like SoA but Circe is somehow better, one of the best books I've read in the last 5 years
Circé comes from the Odyssey, same classical roots.
Circe is great
Man really need to check that one out, just haven't gotten around to it.
I read Circe first! I prefer it to SoA but both are great!
This book is known to tear hearts out. Can’t wait to read it soon!
Cersei is by the same author and is also really good.
I have tissues if you need them
Finished reading it 10 minutes ago and yes, my heart was torn out 😭
Whenever you see “Worth the Hype?” in the thumbnail, you know it’ll either be really good or really bad.
and my pulse goes up a notch
All I know is that Madeline Miller got bank now 😹
It's ass
When I first read the illiad I didn't really like achilles, I thought he was overhyped and kind of a whiny little piss baby. After playing Hades and listening to achilles come down by gang of youths, my mind immediately changed and achilles became one of my favorite greek heroes and a character that I can relate surprisingly alot to. Excited to read this book and get another perspective on the character.
Never expected to see Gang of Youths mentioned on a Daniel Greene video, respect
I love that song! Thought I was the only one who listened to it
That song is honestly so amazing
That song and Hades were the things that got me to read the book and man am I so glad I did
have you had a chance to read it? id love to know how/if your perspective changed afterwards!
Don’t think I don’t see those books on their sides just above the skull, Daniel. Even worse, they’re stacked onto of books placed the proper way. You monster! What’s next, Funko Pops!?
There is another one below the skull! Why Daniel?
I bet he has a closet full of funko pops and its all a lie. Next he isnt a goblin :O
@@marocat4749 le gâsp!
Which books? I can't distinguish them
@@tamakikawaii There are some Dresden Files books on their sides stacked on top of the paperbacks. Looks more like maximizing available space than an aesthetic choice to me.
As. a Greek, this story has always been my fav
Huh! That’s really nice to hear for some reason.
Kalimera. That's as far as my Greek goes.
@@DanielGreeneReviews haha I grew up with stories encompassing a ton of Greek Myth - Hercules - Clash of Titans - Prometheus --- I guess my Geekness is how I connect with these tellings
**Greekness
@@milospollonia1121 I know the word 'malaka', that has to count, right?
I swear to god, I just finished the book a minute ago and turned my laptop on to see the review pop up in my notifications!!! That's what I call one damned coincidence!
Another great modern take on the Illiad is Troy by Stephen Fry. His Greek mythology series has quickly become one of my favorites, and he's far from shy about sexuality in ancient Greece.
yes!!! i loved reading troy after this
It's been a few years since I first read the song of achilles and I really liked it back then. A few weeks ago I decided to re-read it via audiobook. I don't know if it was because of the narrator, that I took more time reading it or if my english has gotten better over the years but I enjoyed it so much more this time around. Absolutely one of my all time favorites.
Glad to hear you enjoyed the audiobook experience. I've it sitting in my "save for next roadtrip" pile.
@@adamwoods6373 the narrator really does an amazing job in my opinion
Maybe it's because we know how important their memories together will be in the end, so it's even more emotional to see those memories being built.
Yeah, the audiobook narrator really suits the story; the only thing I didn't like was his voice for Achilles. I expected more of a clean sound from him, but otherwise the audiobook is an amazing way to experience The Song of Achilles while feeling fully immersed in the world.
I feel going in blind does change your experience, i didnt know this was a rewrite of another story until i looked it up (i dont read much mythology) but because of that mixed with my lack of mythological knowledge i had no clue who was expected to die, by the end i was torn to pieces because it was all a shock to me only adding to the enjoyment and heartbreak.
Yeah, for me, I knew nothing about the original story, so I was a little lost when it came to the politics and all the other Greek mythology character, but it was still enjoyable to read. I didnt know how the death would come in, but it broke me (in a good way, cause I love sad books)..I do think a re-read would be enjoyable and make more sense.
it's always so interesting for me to see the opinions of people who don't know much about mythology, i'm completely enamored with greek myths and read iliad and odyssey before SoA so i knew the prophecies etc and any time a character was introduced it felt like i'm meeting an old friend again which was so damn beautiful, but it also meant i was crying a lot in advance since i knew how everything would fall apart, but i still recommend people to read it completely blind without looking too much into it since that raw emotional exp of seeing the story unfold just seems like an emotional journey that you won't get anywhere else
I envy youuu
The standards of the Goblin is finally a thing, and you are carrying them right
I loved the book. The writing style is really immersive. That's what gravitated me to the book.
This book really affected me, I loved it. Excited to see what the goblin host thinks
Daniel’s shirt is spectacular.
Agreed
As an LGBT person, you made me feel so happy and welcome in this community and I thank so much for that.
People don’t care about your sexuality
this is one of my favorite books ever and i am so happy you enjoyed it! personally i had a hard time finding flaws while reading because i was so invested emotionally in the characters but looking back i would say that the pacing could potentially be an issue, though that is the only criticism i have. you'd think knowing the end would make it less impactful but no, i cried my little heart out with the last chapter
Regayafication is now my favourite term ever
I preferred Circe, but Song of Achilles inspired me to finally read through the Iliad. Shout out to Overly Sarcastic Productions for sparking my interest in the classics.
I randomly found this book in a small bookstore 2 years ago, and I read it completely unknowing what the hell it was, except for the fact it was ancient greek inspired, but boy I was in for a treat.
I ended up sobbing SO bad. It’s my favourite book of all time, and I definitely agree with the hype for once, but I feel like people are probably annoyed by this book. It’s literally EVERYWHERE.
I don’t know what my experience reading it would be if I read it during the hype, but I’m really glad I went into it knowing absolutely nothing. I highly recommend doing that if you can!
This ties with Hadestown as retellings of Greek myths in which I know the ending but it still destroys me anyways
This is not directly related to the review but as someone who has been a subscriber for years and kinda come to see you as a role model for positive masculine ideal and just, in general, a human with qualities I'm striving for you mentioning your bisexuality just means a lot to me.
Anyways if you're actually seeing this have a good day Daniel and know that I really appreciate what you do :)
Didn't he say he was straight in other videos
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl and then in this video he said "recently realized"
As in he's come out recently. Since those videos.
@@lucaleone4331 where
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl what do you mean where?
Like where did he come out as bi?
I don't follow him that closely but I saw something on Twitter a couple months ago.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl he didn't make a big deal of it.
Patroclus with his pure innocence makes Achilles what he is. Even Thetis has to admit that at the end. The book was wonderfully written and kept the pace. Will read Circe next as many have pointed it out on the comments
It's gonna be hard to 'go in blind' when it's a retelling of one of the most well known classics.
I don't understand tiktok but I work in a book store and love how it makes great books like this get more love
I’ve noticed tik tok either pushes really good or really not so good book recommendations lol
Zero middle ground lol
@@claritzaaboy5287 exactly. Like no offense, but I hated we were liars and that book was hyped to hell on BookTok
Circe by Madeline Miller is amazing as well, I highly recommend it! Great video btw
This book utterly crushed me and made me feel more emotional than any other fictional work I have read. Last night, I sobbed my way through the last five chapters, running out of tears and inevitably finding more to shed. Madeline Miller's writing was phenomenally vibrant. As someone who was already familiar with Greek mythology, finishing each and every glorious chapter brought me greater feelings of dread for what I knew was coming. I think one of the reasons I found the book so powerful is that the dynamic of my own relationship is similar to that of Achilles and Patroclus in certain aspects, which led the twists and turns of the story to feel especially relatable.
This book is one of my favorites of all time. I recommend looking up the author talking about it. It is truly fascinating. I’m currently reading her second book Circe. I heard that its even better, and from what Ive read so far it does seem to be. Definitely recommend
Circe is so good. Like WOW so good.
Interesting review! Now at least I know this book will undoubtedly not work for me, so thanks. 🙂 Plus I'd previously read Circe by Madeline Miller, and was extremely disappointed by it. It'd been way overhyped in my opinion and did not deliver at all what I expected from it (and being a huge mythology nerd, I had a few of said expectations lol).
Also, the gay question regarding Ancient Greece needs to be approached with a lot of nuance and caution, because there are so many misconceptions floating around about this topic. To say that the Ancient Greeks (even if only during a certain period) were totes cool with gay people is simply... false, really. Not to mention "being gay" as an identity was most certainly not a thing either. Certain homosexual behaviours were allowed, some were encouraged but within extremely strict and rigid social codes, and this of course was only applicable to a few of the Greek city states (that's another common misunderstanding of Ancient Greece - it wasn't a unified nation, it was a collection of independent city states with different social structures, laws and even cultural customs). The principle example being pederasty, which absolutely does not correspond to what most people would understand as gay love/gay coupling today. Another example would ironically be considered more in the realm of homo-romanticism - some thinkers did indeed posit that love could only be truly experienced between two men (let's never forget a lot of the Ancient Greeks, especially the Athenians, were extremely misogynistic) - but that love was supposed to be, and this is an important point, platonic. It's certainly a fascinating subject, but it's a very complex one too.
Also just to be crystal clear I'm not saying there were no gay/bi people in the Ancient World, nor am I contesting the "Greeks were cool with gay couples" narrative out of homophobia or anything (I'm bisexual myself). Humans have always participated in homosexual behaviour and it is perfectly natural in our species (and a lot of other animal species I might add), *but* it's also a fact that human sexuality has very often been rigidly codified in a lot of societies, especially hierarchical/patriarchal ones where gender was (or still is, as the case may be) extremely prescriptive and centred around reproductive heteronormativity and the transmission of private property. And the Mycenean-descended Ancient Greeks were definitely patriarchal/hierarchical, in different ways and to varying degrees according to the city-state/sub-culture. So no, homosexuality as it is conceptualized today (as a sexual orientation and identity both) was not _accepted_ in Ancient Greece (or at least the Ancient Greece we know of through archeological records). It was probably not persecuted/hunted down like it was during later periods of History (especially under the influence of the Judeo-Christian tradition in Europe) either, sure. But at best, only certain (male) homosexual *practices* were tolerated or accepted within rigid social parameters (like pederasty, or military units for example). As far as we know and understand today in any case.
It's tempting to find justifications for progressive values today in the distant past, but it's a risky endeavour. The misconceptions surrounding sexuality in the Ancient Greco-Roman world have been used to justify/defend both gay rights and pedophilic practices in the 1970s, so... maybe let's not? Let's study the (distant) past because it is enriching, and interesting, and leave it (mostly) at that.
That being said, why not re-imagine Achilles and Patrocles as full-on gay lovers (whether they were ever meant to be understood that way is largely irrelevant, and the question will never be conclusively answered in any case). It's fiction after all, so why not play around with it. 😉
@@ThePurpleBookWyrm thanks for your take.
I read Song of Achilles three years ago in my holidays at the Amalficoast, Italy. Somehow the beaches, the nature and the sunny, hot weather around me made this an even more intense reading experience. Guess I loved this book even more because of it. And oh my forking god the end. Just by thinking about it my hearts starts to hurt again.
I really loved this book, and I'm glad you liked it so much! It's been a while since you've reviewed a book I've read, and I was so excited to see what you had to say! Loved this review
It's YA, isn't it?🤔
@@ChristmasLore I'd say so
I absolutely love the use of Patroclus' POV in order to humanize Achilles, and it didn't even occur to me that someone could potentially read it without any prior knowledge of Achilles and have to read through the lines to find his flaws. Achilles always came off to me in other iterations as a whiny man-baby. He's a demigod who knows he's better than everyone else and throws demi-godly temper tantrums because other people get in his way, and throws his life away in the name of glory. Going in with that perspective, it was an amazing feat of writing to have an author convince me he was loveable.
This book was amazing but I loved Circe even more. Perdita Weeks narrated the audible version, and its just *chef's kiss.*
I second reading Circe! I couldn't put it down, and the prose was beautiful.
After TSOA i was ready to read any book Madeline Miller wrote, and when I heard about Circe I waited so patiently to get my hands on it 🥰 Was not disappointed, just exceptional writing.
Seriously the narration in the audio book was soooooo goodd
@@MeghanmarinePrior It's probably my favorite narration so far! It's absolutely incredible.
With regards to gay Greece. You make this seem very... healthy. As far as I know (mostly what I know of is Sparta, but as far as I am aware that translates at least somewhat to the rest of Greece), homosexuality was, firstly, really only permitted between men, and secondly, there was usually a dominant and a submissive partner, the latter being heavily frowned upon and usually a child, a slave, or similarly underprivileged---I think I don't have to stress that this is horrifying. That's the case, for example, in the spartan _agoge_ . Not the happy free gay antiquity you make it out to be. That said, I haven't read the book. Perhaps this is actually addressed. And I can't be sure there weren't exceptions to this---I'm sure there were. Also, there is not necessarily anything wrong with just inserting LGBTQ themes ahistorically into a book like this---it's not a history book, after all; this is fantasy.
Yup, exactly this. Homosexuality in Ancient Greece and Rome is a very complex topic and there are so many misconceptions floating around about it...
It’s been a while since I read the book, but I remember they weren’t free and open. Achilles was married to a woman and everyone expected him to stop being with Patroclus. They couldn’t be open because Patroclus, as the sub, would be the one to take the vitriol for their continued relationship. But everyone still knew they were together and Patroclus wasn’t treated kindly, which caused Achilles to be violently dramatic on several occasions. Which people tolerated because they needed Achilles to fight.
So yeah, it’s kind of a bittersweet story. They aren’t really allowed to be happy in life.
Yes, exactly. This is always oversimplified, but it was only accepted in specific circumstances, at least as far as I know. There are probably exceptions because ancient Greece spans over a thousand years and quite a large area. We know so little about it.
It certainly wasn't *ONLY* between men. The Greek poet Saphho from the island of Lesbos was such a well known and well respected lesbian that in modern day we have two words for women who are attracted to women that directly come from her: "sapphic" and "lesbian".
But the rest of your comment is certainly true. Homosexuality in Greece is a complex issue.
@@Ruminations09 Oh I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for the correction :)
This book is easily in my top 10 list. I never thought this would be a book you would review on your channel, but im so thrilled to see you talk about it! I feel like you handled this review critically but with respect. Thank you for including lgbt narratives on your platform!
This was one of the books I studied at university, and I can definitely see why it's on the reading list.
Despite it not fitting into my tastes in some ways, the quality of the writing and the way that the craft is evident on the page really cements this as a book that writers can learn something from.
"Telling it in a modern prose with a much more modern approach."
I don't know why but that sounds like a rhyming verse.
"Something, something something, put me in coach."
... This is why I'm not a writer...
@@MKTraxel 😂🤣
@@MKTraxel 😂🥲
Big agree here, the story was good, makes a good modern companion piece to the Iliad but the level of emotion people were selling this book on was way overstated especially if you're already aware of the Iliad
I like how you very nonchalantly just came-out as Bi to us 😏
Congratulations on the realization! I'm happy for you.
In Ancient Greece people were already arguing if Patroclus and Achilles were gay or not! I enjoyed seeing the gay version that so many classicists would rather dismiss or rationalize as a bromance.
EDIT: I think in Plato’s Symposium this was a topic that the guests discussed iirc
I mean, I think if Achilles and Patroclus were gay, Homer would have explicitly stated it.
@@TheRedHaze3 considering it is one of the earliest written text in Western Europe (over 3000 years old) and the Homeric question of “Homer - who and how many?” I don’t think so. Nuances have been lost and as usual with Greek myths there are always different variations of the same myth. I think there is a good chance that they were lovers but as I said the discussion itself is so ancient that I can’t add anything to it 😂
also I’m in no means in a position to take a reasonable position in this argument.
@@TheRedHaze3 Beyond the fact that they have a daughter together, neither does Homeros for Agamemnon and his wife, or more importantly, for Menelaus and Helena. But these relationships are somehow never questioned while they have much less evidence in the Iliad than Achilles and Patrokles... I wonder why 😉?
@@jaspervanheycop9722 Probably because they have a relationship where sex and romantic love is expected. They're married (or going to be).
I don't understand how two people raising a girl together is more evidence that they're having sex than two people *getting married.*
Sex between two adult men was taboo in ancient Greece, because it was seen as reducing the passive participant to the level of a woman, and it was supposed to be incredibly shameful.
Given that fact, I find it hard to believe that Homer intended Achilles and Patroclus to be read as gay lovers, especially with how neither is clearly the 'top'.
@@TheRedHaze3 Marriage in Ancient Greece wasn't for love, it was a business transaction. It was there to strenghten alliances and there was the not insubstantial incentive of the huge dowry. The only one married for love in the Iliad (and more the Odyssee, but people tend to blur the two together anyway) is Odysseus and his Penelope, and he's the exception. Agamemnon was literally murdered by his wife after he murdered their daughter (truly a happy marriage...) and well... Menelaos unfaithfull wife is the reason the whole debacle starts...
There wasn't a taboo against same-sex relationships, many authors (including both Plato and Aristoteles) are open about it. What WAS taboo was being seen as too into sex, with either gender. A man too much into women was seen as effete too. What was also frowned upon was not performing the marriage duties, making babies, of you did that they basically didn't care who else you slept around with.
I know this doesn’t have anything to do with the book but I just wanna say that you being openly Bi sort’ve cheered me up today- I look up to you and love your videos so knowing we have something like that in common makes me really happy! Idk if that made sense but anyways- great video as always!
Combating bi erasure ftw!
@@andrew20146 didn't he say he was straight in other videos
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl He did. Being bi is confusing and people tend to realize it later in life.
Sad story: I thought I would like mythological retellings since I enjoy a good fairytale retelling…. That is not the case. I’ve read several recently published ones (including Circe and The Witch’s Heart) and they just fell flat for me. I think part of it has to do with how authors project modern culture and ideals in the story. Maybe? There is also the matter of me not liking the structure of many of these retellings.
It’s too bad, but based on this review I don’t think Song of Achilles is for me either. I am glad it works for others though. 😁
I had never cried so much after reading a book. So so good
4:40...did Daniel just come out as bi? Because I remember in a Q&A he said he was straight. I mean, I haven't watched every single episode but if this is the first time mentioning it, welcome to the community!
i dont think you understand how fast i clicked
I love this book and I've been recently getting into classical mythology retellings. My only issue is how Patroclus isn't treated as a very good warrior in this which is a bit... hmm. Like why can't there be two "manly" guys in the relationship? I think Pat Barker's The Silence of the Girls is even better than Song so I recommend folks checking that out if they enjoyed Song.
Yeah that was strange to me, after all Patrokles "big thing" in the Iliad is that he convinces the Myrmidons that Achilles is leading them. Why would they buy it with this version?
@@jaspervanheycop9722 yeah, exactly. He was always a great fighter, just no match for Hektor because Hektor was almost as good as Achilles.
I agree fully; I felt like Achilles was definitely turned into Patroclus's "savior" or "defender" or something like that. And while Patroclus disguised himself as Achilles, he killed...like, multiple people, including Hector's charioteer. Near the end of the war, too, when all the surviving warriors were at least decently skilled, enough so to survive after 10 years. As for Silence of the Girls, I really liked how they didn't sugarcoat Achilles -- like, at ALL -- but I did think that it could've been more realistic; there are a lot of anachronisms/modernisms which felt jarringly out of place. I think the two books are very nice counterparts to each other and allow to see and appreciate two extremely different perspectives, which is really important for an influential work such as the Iliad. Another book I really enjoyed reading, if you're up for recommendations, is A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes, which is told from different women's perspectives. It's really amazingly written and actually feels like different people narrating instead of the same author impersonating each character. :)
@@qwertynumbersix Hundred percent agree with all you've said! And I love A Thousand Ships! I wrote a comparative essay on it and Song for my MA. Such a good book.
@@hcstubbs3290 yeah no hector was nowhere as good as achilles like that's something that's overstated achilles us on a whole different level Memnon was nearly as good as achilles I'm talking about close he actually made him bleed like that's the difference between them
Loved Song of Achilles and so happy you moved from ally to member of the LGBTQIA+ community!
I'm a gay classicist and have studied Homer for a decade so I'm quite biased, but I found Song of Achilles so beautifully written. I'd like to personally recommend the recent translations of Homer by Emily Wilson, they're fantastic modern translations which sticks close to the text while being very readable. Love the review 🏳️🌈❤
I read Robert Fagles translation of The Odyssey at Uni and currently own his translation of The Iliad also. I remember enjoying the flow of the prose with Fagles.
Would you recommend Emily Wilson over Fagles? Thanks 🙏
@@DhampirParadox I mean it really depends on the reason you're reading them. In the US Fagles is the standard academic translation, while E.V Rieu remains the counterpart in the UK. The older translations are quite stilted, but they do tend to be more accurate. When translators adapt Homer they have to be prepared to sacrifice accuracy of translation for beauty of prose. Emily Wilson imo currently maintains a good balance between the two. Very much looking forward to her translation of the Iliad, which I think will be regarded as one of the finest translations of the epic since the 19th century
This is one of my favorites and I'm so glad you reviewed it!!!! And on top of that I'm so happy that you liked it. I genuinely think it is so beautiful and tragic and it rekindled my middle school era Percy Jackson fueled love for Greek mythology haha
This book f*cked me up. Highly recommend it
I read " Circe " by Madeline Miller, and I absolutely loved it!
Great review! You should check out Circe, the author’s 2nd novel, which is an amazing epic fantasy story also based in mythological Greece. I enjoyed it much more than Song of Achilles, though the latter is fascinating and refreshing on all the levels you mentioned.
The book is beautifully written and so goddamn saaaaaad! Definitely worth checking out for anyone interested!
Review S. (Ship of Theseus) immediately
Yay we love the reviews!! Def check out Hades video game if you want some more fun Greek retelling!
I read this while i was studying the Iliad at school, and it made me fall in love with the Iliad more than I expected to. Plus my teacher got really excited when she found out I'd read it
unpopular opinion: I absolutely despise this book. I think this is an insult to the Iliad and Greek mythology in general. This was, in my opinion, the worst book i've read in a very long time.
FWIW everyone hyped Circe to death too and I was extremely disappointed by it! 🤷🏻♀️😅
This was a good review💛...can you please do the same for Aristotle and Dante discover the secrets of the universe...pleaseeee❤️🙏
Literally one of my new favorite books and I’m so scared you’ll rip it apart 😂
Ok cool you liked it! I agree with literally everything you said.
I read separate parts of the Illiad when I was younger- maybe around the age of 6 or 7, so while reading the song of Achilles, I was able to enjoy it to its fullest. I was aware of every name mentioned in the book and their stories, such as Orpheus being able to make trees weep. I loved the book as a whole and would personally give it 10 out of 10. I hope some people agree with me;;
Having gay sex in a giant rose quartz cave in the mountains while warrior training with a centaur is just…. Goals. My goals.
I just finished and have not stopped crying
I can't continue reading past the book though I want to. The story draaaags on, and the characters are not properly developped. I very much dislike Patroclus who has no personality apart from "I'm attracted to Achiles". From from the very start, that annoyed me. The guy is always clinging to Achilles, and we don't really get to know him alone. There are so many names thrown in as well whereas the characters are mentionned like once? but that can be me. I found the representation of LGBTQI+ themes a bit awkward like you said, gay relationships weren't uncommon back in the days, it's just that it was between older men and young men. It's said that people may continue their relationship when they grow older but it was rare. It was looked down upon but not to the point of having to completely hide their relationship like they're doing in the book. I want to finish it, but the author isn't making it easy. Oh also, it is targetted at teenagers for sure, not adults.
Loved this book so much. I went in having read the iliad and it was hype af when the big characters came in.
I absolutely love this book, but one thing I don't see talked about enough is the fact the Deidameia r@pe Patroclus was completely brushed over and never mentioned again. If it didn't have any impact, why included it in the first place?
Hello Daniel,
Thank you for reviewing this book, I read it last year and was incredibly moved. I'll explain why in a moment because first, you said "my recently realized bi-ness" and I wanted to take a second to honor that as self-acceptance can be hard enough for some but to then add to it that you are sharing this on a public platform where you have an audience of hundreds of thousands of people is incredibly brave. Well done you.
Hey Daniel! I don't know if you really want people to comment on this, but you said you've recently discovered you were bi. So have I, and while it's been a struggle, seeing people whom I look up to go through similar things is really inspiring! I don't know if you are going to read this, but I want you to know that you bringing it up in your video in front of thousands of peoplr is really inspiring to me, someone who is also just discovering and coming to terms with his sexuality. I don't really know what else to say. Thank you for making my day better :)
Also, the book sounds super interesting, definetly reading it once I finish the Book of the Ancestor trilogy
Well I politely disagree about it was ok to be gay in Iliad’s Era. There are some insults made on book II and VII (by Spleen and Menelaus) based on sexuality.
For me a lot of the “evidences” of the gay relationship between Achilles and Patroclus seems out of context. The main theme of Iliad is honor and the wrath of being dishonored (Achilles’s wrath that opens the Iliad). Besides the poem starts with Achilles angry because Agamemnon takes from him Briseis - the woman Achilles was in love and his bride.
So I'm very curious about how Miller handled that.
When Achilles said "what has hector done to me" or something along those lines, I knew for a fact that this will make me cry and it did.
Missed opportunity to called it the Gayliad, 0/10 review. Gay harder!
But seriously, this sounds rad. Gonna have to check it out. Love the idea of exploring these themes.
I certainly hope it will be popular in schools in the future, but I sadly doubt it. Even a lot of teachers are quite aggressively against modern literature in general, but especially if it's anything remotely near LGBTQ. I can't imagine the pushback in conservative places
Their gay thing is not similar to equal our idea of gay today. It was about who was the "dominat" partner.
I understand everyone has their own interpretation but I honestly don’t believe Achilles and Patroclus were gay for these reasons.
1. When you look at their genealogy it turns out they actually were cousins like in Troy.
2. People view their relationship through modern American eyes which basically means two men who are close are instantly assumed to be gay when there are countries I’ve been to where men would be affectionate and even sleep in the same bed and not be gay. Plus in ancient writings men were more outspoken and actually remarked on other men’s looks in which again of done in America it will be considered gay.
3. Achilles was shown to sleep with women like Briseis or Deidema. Except in Deidema’scase he forced himself on her due to his own feelings and not because his mom coerced him to. Achilles later begs Deidema not to tell anyone and later she gives birth to his son Neoptolemus.
Again I understand people have their own interpretations but there are those who simply go crazy and would brand people as bigots for “straight washing” these characters.
I absolutely loved this book!!! I am happy to know you liked it!
I wish I hadn’t had so many people tell me how great it was because I went in with too high expectations. The story is decent. I didn’t love the narrator/protagonist’s foot fetish. Feet get described every few pages and it grossed me out. Didn’t love how nearly every female character named or otherwise ( and there weren’t too many) got sexually assaulted and or murdered. I know that’s war and how the stories go but if it’s more modern maybe don’t make passing comments about how all the slave girls are getting r*ped nightly. Overall it was fairly good but the praise heaped on it is a bit much.
Why isn't anyone else talking about the recently realized bi-ness?
Exactly congrats to dan
I know you have reduced book reviews, and I understand why but its always nice to watch one from you, whether to add books to my TBR or to hear your thoughts on books I love, so even if its a while from now I'll look forward to the next one.
If you don't want to read the illiad you would be well served with Stephen frys Troy.
TSOA is one of my favourite books ever, but your criticisms are also totally valid. It isn't perfect but the flaws it does have, don't bother me.
Daniel to be clear ancient Greece homosexual romance was not a progressive thing.
The vast majority of homosexual relationships were between grown men and pubescent boys. If you engaged in sex with a grown man as another man it was seen as highly problematic to be the "passive" male.
You were expected as the erastes to be the dominant man in the relationship with the younger hairless male as the eromenos or passive male.
Way less cool than pop culture has made it out to be.
I like the book. The "gay-ification" though I felt was set to 11/10
In my brain, I see a court where the Disheveled Goblin himself open the hearing with "Let's see if it meats the standard of the Goblin."
The fact that you were so respectful of booktok means a lot. Thank you.
bigger question
DID YOU CRY???
Was waiting for the video since seeing you buying the book on Instagram story
I think another benefit of reading the Iliad first/being familiar with the story is that it provides an underlying narrative tension that can be lost going in blind. Like, when you're reading about all of the peaceful and beautiful things happening in their childhood and on Pelion, you know that everything is leading to the trojan war. These times will not continue, and it adds an element of preciousness. Like, SPOILER there's so much tension in when Patroclus puts on Achilles' armour because the way it's written it feels so powerful and so good and so satisfying, but there's the tension of KNOWING what happens to Patroclus.
I've heard people complaining that the book doesn't have a plot, and it's really just vignettes of their relationship, but knowing the story of the Iliad really eases that. Even though I do feel like it's the POINT that it's a collection of memories, because the book is what Patroclus is showing to Thetis at the end. UGH such a well crafted narrative.
This book touched my gay little heart
The Iliad was never not gay. It shows the love Achilles and Patroclus had
In Greece this ....wasn't liked .....to be more exact Greece now is a very religious country that denies the narrative of ancient Greece gay as western propaganda. Just throwing this out there.
Now as a greek I'm very hesitant to read this simply because I grew up learning this story at school for years and it's hard to separate the rawr ancient Greece sex slaves ( cause there was almost a civil war among the Greeks cause Achileas and another king were arguing over who gets to keep a sex slave... Ans no neither wanted to free her ) and warriors and have a love story . Tempted to read but hesitant
I really couldn't get into this one, I don't know why! I was just unintrested (maybe the fact that I already knew how it was going to end didn't help)
The Song of Achilles was such a great book. I read it somewhat blind. I had already read the Iliad, but I didn’t know about the lgbtq rep in the book. I didn’t know there was going to be romance in it, so that was an pleasant surprise. I do agree about the dialogue and, for me, the start was a little slow. Other than that, it was an amazing book.
Hey congrats on the newly realized biness!