Retiring the Orion VII's - NYC's Bus Fleet Modernization
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2024
- As the MTA phases out the old carbon-emitting Orion VII Buses, new, zero-emission New Flyer & NOVABus models are entering the network, and in this video, I talk about the MTA's plans to modernize the New York City Bus Network.
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I love driving the Orion 7 NGs in cold winter days. They have amazing driver heaters. I think they're starting to be replaced by the Novabus HEVs at my depot, MJQ
Quill is not getting NovaBus LFS HEV's. Rather, they are getting 76 New Flyer XDE40s to replace all the Orion VIIs (30 from the base order of 110, and 46 for the option order of 84). The numbers of these buses are 9590-9619 and 9416-9461. With the 43 XD40s they also have (7572-7614), this will comprise 119 standard buses, and thus will become 100% Xcelsiors for the local fleet. Rumor is that they might get the BAE buses 9505-9509 from Grand Avenue.
@@TheRailLeaguer well our drivers here are being required to train on them. I've seen 9684 in the depot but that's a MHV unit. They're using it for training
@@josephnyy86 Oh okay. I’m guessing that they might be preparing for a transfer to Manhattanville or something?
@@TheRailLeaguer the B/Os, nope. There are posters all over the depot saying that all operators must attend the training
@@josephnyy86 Oh okay.
imma miss the Orion VII OGs, those were classics
also D60HFs. i remember them on the Bx15 and Bx19
Real
I miss those too and the ones from the video
I remember the d60s on the bx12 bx22 and bx40 &42
The the Orion viii ogs on the bx28 bx26 bx38 bx16 and bx30
Great video, glad to see you branch out into buses. A video about the RTS bus would be nice, as it was arguably the most iconic NYC bus in history
I'll add that to my list.
No . Fishbowls were iconic
@@williamerazo3921 The RTS is on that list alongside the Fishbowl.
@@MysticTransit Can you please also add the Orion V CNG to the list?
You could put a snowplow on an RTS and plowed snow while in service. Great bus. Cramped in front otherwise a Hero bus!
We have 3 fully electric New Flyer X40E here at UTA. I one of few drivers who can drive these for 9 plus hours without killing the batteries. These buses have killer A/C for the summer days. Very quiet electric drivetrain. The only annoying part is the loud GM style turn signals. The front door when open blocks the outside mirror. The header changer is too high to change. But has air vents above the drivers head to keep us cool is a nice touch that we ask Gillig to do the same on our 2020 models.
The Toronto Transit Commission, which is smaller than NYC MTA has 60 electric buses which is the largest in North America. They are 25 New Flyer XE40's, 25 Proterra Catalyst BE40's and 10 BYD K9M's.
They’ve been running OG Orions since 2003. Those were actually the first hybrids to go.
2001*
@@Bombardier2199 You mean #6365-6489? Those were 2004 models (save for #6365, which was a 2002 unit).
@@dodge1515 those were not the first Orion VIIs, MTA started operating Orion VIIs as early as 2001.
@@Bombardier2199 Correct, but those were the first hybrid O7s.
Orion made a bus model that was almost exactly similar to that of the Gilig Phantom back in the 80's and 90's, high floor. Those buses were kick ass.
Definitely!! The Orion V.
I remember when Green Bus Lines bought them in 1997. OMG they were sooo fast
I love that so much of this was done in my neighborhood. Good report, as always
Oh, cool! Glad you enjoyed!
The Orion 7ngs are a staple in south Brooklyn. I understand why the rts buses were retired as they were diesel buses, but this, I had no idea.
The Next Gen Orion VII's assigned to the Brooklyn Division will all be phased out by the beginning of 2023. The MTA is going to spend the next two to two 1/2 years retiring the remaining Next Gen Orion VII's in OA/TA and MTA Bus.
@@BrIaNMeRcY1022 I hope they preserve one of them as an historic bus
Nice! My City Toronto Is The Biggest City In Canada and they have gotten Rid of There Orion VII's we only have 170 Left and our bus have bike racks. All Of Our Orion VII's are being replaced by Nova's. You earned a like and sub my friend :)
Oh cool! I really like the TTC livery on the buses, and on the Nova’s, they look really good.
Also, thanks for liking and subscribing.
@@MysticTransit welcome
Last Orion 7 NG buses were built in 2011. #1800-1839 from NICE bus (ex-MTA) are 2010 -2011 Models. EPA10 3Gs started being built in 2010.
Sad day. But good at the same time. One of the issues the community was having was these bus depots in the black and Hispanic communities..The issue of asthma was the big issue at the time. So it is good that these effects won't be an issue as was the past.
You are extraordinarily prolific for someone with fewer than 10k subscribers. Like a Jago Hazzard for New York!
Funnily enough, I do watch a bit of Jago Hazzard. Actually listening to his W&C Extension video right now. I model some of my videos after his, but I am trying to be unique.
I want to expand out and make my content watchable for most people, not just focusing on one thing like the New York City Subway, but also the Buses, and other transportation systems.
I remember the earlier Orion VII buses having the flipdot signs before they started to have all buses use the LED display
Good video but remember this. Electric Bus technology is advancing. Best to have a small fleet of them when you are introducing them. The MTA has committed to procuring exclusively Electric Buses after 2028. In 2023, the MTA plans on receiving a test fleet for more Electric 40 & 45-foot buses.
In last month's (February 2022) Board Materials, the MTA is already in the process for procuring for more Electric Buses (100 60-foot/400 40-foot). The progression has to come gradual, not rushed. While the cost of an Electric Bus is high but, the cost of maintaining them outweighs the cost over time.
You make a good point. Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them for the slow process of procuring Electric Buses.
@@MysticTransit When it comes to rolling stock, logistics plays a crucial role. The supply chain is one of those critical pieces. Hopefully, it gets better in the technology sector from the onset of COVID-19. The MTA has a game plan in place to advance to the next generation. From Electric Buses to the R211's, the MTA is going to look vastly different in 2026.
We have CNG, Electric, and Diesel buses. Even though you say electric bus don't require that much maintence but in fact they do. We don't use all the time because the weather conditions, how long/short the route is. They require special programming all the time. The driving ranges from driver to driver.
@@tommynunez1495 I am well aware of what buses are used in New York City. Weather conditions is a non-factor. The past couple of snowstorms, the MTA ran their New Flyer XE60's with little to no issues. The MTA knows the technology is advancing and is taking the range of the bus seriously.
@@BrIaNMeRcY1022 Im a former NYer and live in Utah. Im a higher elevation and weather does plays the part here so when maintence doesn't send out the electric buses in given conditions its for many reason. Glad MTA thinks differently
I’m a former London bus driver abd have driven numerous different types including the routemaster but the modern buses we have now are superb to drive for eg the the Volvo VH also the tech the driver has now once it was just two way radio now it’s radio SMS txt mobile phone and GPS on the TfL i bus system will NY try double deckers again we have over 8000 in London pulse lots of different single deckers lots of variety as for the old routemaster now a museum piece plus in todays world to dangerous but I did like driving them the conductor took all the flak from passengers hehe
NYC did have double decker buses from 1907 til 1953. From the 5th Avenue Coach Company to the New York Omnubus Company to the New York City Board of Transportation. It has been all single deckmbuses since then. Ceck out on GOOGLE for,vintage photos of buses in NYC.
In addition to Double Deckers running in the early 1900's, we tested Enviro 500's just a few years back.
@@MysticTransit I’ve driven the ALX 400 and it’s latter enviro 400 and enviro MDC on a rail replacement from Stanmore to Luton via the M1 really nice bus my one was what we call a semi coach could easily do 70 mph on the M1 motorway ,all the best ,Mark
The NG's are the best, I love how all the seats past the back door are against the window leaving more space for people to walk all the way to the back of the bus.
I will miss all Orion VII buses like how I miss the RTS - 06 buses I used to take/see all the time on Riverside Blvd.
1:18 ive literally rode that specific bus on the Q101, crazy
As of March 27th, the Orion VII OGS have officially retired. RIP 2001-2024
It’s actually March 25th. 3762 was the last Old Gen and it did it’s last runs on the Q37 and Q60. And then it retired the day after. 3708 and 3751 retired the day before March 24th. This now officially ends the era of New York City operating buses with push tape stop requests, slanted windshields and they were also the last buses that didn’t feature announcements.
2:05 you forgot the 2010 LFSA when you were saying the buses that were going to retire one after another
one of the reasons why the order of NovaBus LFS H.E.Vs is because of the early spread of COVID-19 back in 2020
Why would that be a reason to order the buses?
@@MysticTransit shit i forgot to put delayed
RTS 9000’s and 5000’s were the best. Only problem was once the came out of maintenance the drivers seat were never the same. No leg room! 😂
the orions are my favorite
They have been a classic in my life
I'm gonna miss driving the NGs those because they're pretty fast and brakes are good with the help of the regen braking. The OGs are crap with the exception of 3563. That was a BEAST of a bus bro 💪
Wasn't that the one they converted to a diesel
@@artvandelay5385 YES. Yes it was. The whole fleet was supposed to be converted but it would have been an expensive conversion.
@@fw3nyc I loved that bus when they sent it to spring creek I drove all the time I got stuck with on the 103 they took it to zerga its still there
Bro really called the OGs crap
@Skillissuelol they are tho. Brakes are lousy and acceleration is lack luster to say the least.
I saw some orion buses on the Washington bridge.
Had those in my neighborhood for a loooong time ...was so happy when they retired the high kneeling ones ... hated those buses ..
Wish they could find a way to reuse those buses ... but unfortunately we are not in that part of the country where these could be turned into some kind of living situation ... 😖
Rule of thumb:
Don't scrap all the Orion 7 Next Gens. Because if they do, the MTA will regret it. Trust me. Rode one on the Q50 today. They still have that great instant torque. And they still look really decent with the frameless windows. They can rehab and keep some of them and donate the rest overseas
You do realize that these buses are reaching the end of life and new buses coming in need room in the depots, correct?
@@TheRailLeaguer To be fair the M.T.A does have a history of retiring things too fast. I always think it’s a good rule of thumb to keep a few as a contingency fleet just in case. For example recently the new fleet of Prevost coach buses had seat spacing problems the M.T.A should’ve keep some of the older D4500 models just in case something went wrong with the new coaches.
@@TheRailLeaguer It is true new buses irreconcilably in some instances will need to be ushered in. However, the Orion 7 next gen hybrid it's still a very decent design and the buses are still very fast. It is one of the few fast and fun to ride buses ever to come out of the Orion plant.
The Orion 7 Next Gens were an enormous improvement over the Orion 7 First Gens in all aspects. All I am suggesting is that the MTA save some of the Orion 7 next gens. They can rehab them. MBTA, TTC and I believe SEPTA have used a company to rehab some of their buses from the mid 2000s And the nation's biggest transit network can't do this as well? That's kind of absurd.
Of course, they don't need to keep all the Orion 7 Next Gens. They can retire all of the Orion 7 first gens because they are just too damn slow and the design is dull and out of style.
I'm pretty sure that the MTA can rehab at least 50 Orion 7 next gen hybrids out of the 800 or so in total. That's only like 6 percent. Come on. This is not rocket science. I'm sure they will have plenty of room in the depots to store them.
Let me just reiterate NO American transit agency should be scraping any buses. Retired buses not auctioned off can be donated to other countries where the people are still using dilapidated buses that are 50 years old and more.
@@milestone_achiever4634 There really isn’t a need to save a large amount of Next Gens when depot space is at premium. However they could save one or two for the museum.
@@jamallhayden2512 The retirement of the NG buses are going a bit slow this time around, and there really isn’t a need for a handful of old local buses to be kept around for contingencies. However if it makes you feel any better they could preserve a bus or two for the museum fleet.
Thank goodness I cant stand those Orions. Sometimes the drivers seat doesn't go all the way back and I'm 6'3. Even driving the RTS was better in my opinion. The new electric fleet is great, they move quick too hopefully they don't tinker with them and mess them up.
Wow your a driver thank you for your service and come on the onions are classic NYC but yeah the city and the world needs to move with the times we have to go electric too much pollution global warming etc.
What were the models called that ran from 1994 to I think he said 2006 he said from 2006 the onions took over ?
I can't wait cuz I take the q41 everyday and I always get the og busses
great video .. I favor the "4000" because they have a smaller "three-spoke" steering wheel and great visibility which made driving them nice in traffic close second would be the "7000" (Brooklyn). I think this was the best bus in the fleet (just be careful in rain and snow the front likes to slide) ... but you can't beat the RTS in bad weather they are warm and visibility is the best out of all the buses (when you can get the passenger side mirror right lol ) due to the fact you sit much higher.. (not counting the older rts 9000 they sucked with their "touchy" brake peddles which would send passengers flying if you had to stop short which had the older brake design).... currently, I drive the extended nose buses out of Staten Island and they are terrible in ride and visibility (my good the shakes thought the steering column and rattles the driver to death on long line like the s78/ s79/ s74....
Where I go (and am) there are always Orion 7’s, but there is also the new flyer that is finally a Ceb, I find it unlikely they will do that to the Orion 7, as they are taking it off for retirement.
Still, I’m gonna miss that instant torque it had.
Actually, I really liked those streamlined Grumman buses. But I know they were a maintenance nightmare.
I'm from NYC and I love buses
NYC gets cold enough to induce big variability in battery bus performance, right? Do what Boston does, implement battery or gas extended trolley-busses, with trolley wire along trunks... or have many rapid-charging trolley points along a 100-percent battery service
The 15 XE60s can handle cold weather, and it can even handle snowy roads as well.
The one with 6905 was on my line the B12 up until 2020
6905 was never even assigned to East NY Depot. The East NY Batch of Gen-II+ buses was from 6790-6843.
@@TheRailLeaguer it was back in 2019 and 2018
@@TheRailLeaguer some of them get switched due to transferring buses from different lines B12 is now xd40s now
I’ll miss these, LFS’s are slowly replacing these at QV and Jamaica depots
The 209 diesel LFS and 139 XD40s have not started delivery as of yet. Queens Village’s batch of Old Gens have slowly being replaced by displaced NG buses from Manhattanville. Jamaica no longer has Next Gen buses. The batch of LFS buses for them will displace the XD40s to Brooklyn and Casey Stengel.
Queens Village will be getting 50 LFS buses and Jamaica will be getting 60.
I hope the renewed national focus on EVs urges the MTA to speed up this process. That being said, I wish the MTA would look into trolleybuses again. Would solve so many issues!
Hi. I'm from Poland. Why in the world are CNG-powered buses not going for the preservation?
0:25 one of them is still at eastchester
Yes you need to invest in the supporting infrastructure. Like dozens of diesel powered tow trucks to tow the electric bus when they run out of juice midspan on the RFK bridge.
It is exteremely unlikely that electric buses will get stuck in the middle of the bridge. A few Proterra buses were tested on routes operating on the Pulaski Bridge and a number of articulated Xcelsior electric articulated have been operating on the M60 along the RFK bridge, and there hasn’t been a case where buses ran out of power in each.
They need to go back to the old colors
Was the Manhattan Orion VII NG on the Q47 and other Queens Buses that goes between Queens without Manhattan?
MTA Bus is currently receiving displaced Next Gen's from Brooklyn, The Bronx and Manhattan to retire the Old Gen Orion VII's. Those are just holdover buses as the 135 Nova LFS' for MTA Bus won't be in service till 4th Quarter 2022.
@@BrIaNMeRcY1022 oh ok
as long as they keep at least 1 of each for heritage reasons, for museum
The buses is okay but I still miss the RTS and Orion 7 but MTA Bus still have the Orion 7
I Miss The D60HF's.
Same.
I still can’t believe they didn’t preserve any 🤦🏿♂️ How could you not preserve your first articulated fleet! 🤬
Yeah, that, was a rather stupid decision.
I’m gonna Miss the Orion og
Wish I was around to see them
Will miss Orion vii my favorite buses og&2nd gen &3rd gen buses
Me too. my son grew up with the OG and the NG buses and he hates the new buses. luckily we live on the Q112 route so he will see his favorite bus's for a little longer before they make their leave.
There are less than 50 Orion NGs remaining at JFK/Far Rockaway.
its sad for them to go i really like orion v ng and og with the windows and the reae of the bus
1:45 they only own 40 foot version of them, so there are shorter or longer versions?
All the Orion VIIs the MTA have are of the 40 feet variation.
Lol we out here in far rock driving retired busses
Bro a little county bus system has electric bus by Cleveland called laketran
Bus is my horse
Pretty sure OG stands for Old Gen as many of us call them that and not “Original”
OG stands for Original. Fanners just call them "Old Gens" because the NG's are the "Next Gens".
@@MysticTransit just searched it up you’re right. I guess we learn something new everyday.
The MTA should test a New flyer xhe40 demo bus and If the result is good then the MTA can buy more New Flyer XHE40 buses
Heads up: the MTA does have plans for new hydrogen electric buses at Gun Hill Depot.
I’m gonna miss them haha cause of nostalgia
@Bread And Circuses CMONN I’m 20 😭😭
Me too..
They wouldn't have had this problem if they wouldn't have gotten rid of all the trolleybuses and trolleys during the fifties
I WONDER WHAT MODEL BUS THEY USED BACK IN 1998 I USE TO LOVE HOPPING ON THE BACK AS A KID AND RIDING THE BUS FOR FREE 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The is cool video
Would it kill MTA to convert more of their all diesel buses to hybrid electric? If they're really gonna retire the orions the least they can do is make the majority of their fleet more green.
Also I hope they get Gillig LF buses as well.
Much of the diesel fleet they are ordering is much cleaner than decades ago due to new changes to the EPA regulations.
@@TheRailLeaguer still a hybrid bus is still cleaner than an all diesel one. The least they can do is use biodiesel
@@amtrak1214 Not by much, especially since hybrid buses have been performing poorly in Queens.
orion buses are my favorite. they shouldnt retire them the remaining one should shtill run only on the qns and some on brooklyn lines.
The Orion’s are reaching 12 years of service life. Retirement is the only option at this point.
@@TheRailLeaguer As of this writing (3.5.22), all of the Next Gen Orion VII's (sans 4701-4702) are now at retirement age. The last group of buses entered service at Jamaica Depot in March of 2010. 4701-4702 entered service in May of 2010 at Grand Avenue. By July, all of the 12xx Nova LFSA's would be at retirement age. The mass Request for Proposals (RFP) the MTA put out last month (February 2022) would retire all of those buses I just mentioned.
@@BrIaNMeRcY1022 That’s awesome.
have about bee lime
Why cant orion come back and make newer orion 7?
New Flyer bought them up.
I have a question Mystic. What was the saddest loss for you other than the RTS?
D60HF. Those were my favorite buses.
@@MysticTransit Wow same here. I grew up with them on the Bx1/2 along the Concourse and those D60's dominated Grand Concourse. You would also hear the CNG Orion OG's from 10 blocks away 😂.
I grew up with them on the M101, Bx15, and many of the Bronx bus routes.
@@MysticTransit Good ol days man.
@@BxRailfanJRP when the Bx6, 11, 35, and 36 would cross on 161, 167, and 170 Sts, and Tremont Avenue
Damn those blue electric busses look like they stole them from the Albany CDTA. Same colors and all.
Well, it is the color of the NYS flag
Sad those bus are nice to drive
You forgot the Orion VII CNG
I didn't forget it. I just didn't mention it.
@@MysticTransit ok u
1st comment
Why does everyone have a hard on for battery electric? Batteries suck. Why cant we use diesel generator electric hybrids. Ya know like locomotives?
MTA is already procuring several diesel electric hybrid buses, but the long term plan is to go zero emissions (the diesel electric hybrids still pollute, but not by much compared to diesel and older hybrid buses).
so sorry but the way you pronounce depot de po is killing me and my kids lol we die every time we hear you say it like a knife in the gut
Kinda feisty there,son...aintcha son?
I like your style..but you can't come at your potential subs like "yeah, I said DEP_pOoot...,deal with it "
Someone Could take something that silly, Make it Personal..and troll the hell out of you just because...
😂
How about having a contest in every high school, college, and university in NYC to have new engines for using hydrogen, liquified natural gas, butane, propane liquified coal gas, ethyl, methyl alchohol as alternative fuels?
This is about achieving carbon neutrality by no later than 2050 under the Paris Climate Agreement to prevent global warming from exceeding 1.5°C and not just about reducing local air pollution and reliance on oil. This is why most of the alternatives you mentioned would not work. In order to be zero emissions, you have to use either all-electric or fuel cells. No combustion engines are allowed, not even hydrogen, because any combustion in Earth's atmosphere creates nitrogen oxides ("NOₓ"), which form smog. The term "alternative fuels" is now over a decade outdated. It is now instead and will be for the forseeable future "zero emissions" and "carbon neutral".
I wish the designs were better.....these already look old.....I mean some of the art deco buses of yesteryear look more modern than this.
The use of hydrogen fuelled buses is also something I think is the way forward especially with the 9 min refuelling time compared to the time electric vehicles need to recharge. This allows better utilisation of the fleet.
Where’s hydrogen infrastructure in the state of ny. Nowhere. Where electric plug outlet? Everywhere
@@williamerazo3921 where was the oxygen storage tanks before the hospital got built?
Like many things as we move to greener option we may need to invest in infrastructure but for Hydrogen delivery to site is via a tanker from the processing site.
Where hydrogen will have advantages and this is the case over in my area which has a mixture of urban/rural communities is the increased range and the quicker turnaround time when needing to be refilled. The filling of the Hydrogen tanks takes only 9 minutes which is impressive compared to electric charging times for over 250 miles.
Yes, regenerative breaking is a good way of extending electric bus range but when you get out of the cities often the breaking is less frequent and the routes are longer which is a good reason for the hydrogen buses. There is also the question of how many extra buses do you need to allow for the increased charging time of electric buses to still run your operation especially on routes with 24 hour operation as not only are you risking having to purchase more buses but also more land to store the fleet.
Why can’t the MTA just keep the Orion 7s?
The Orion 7s are my childhood buses
@Bread And Circuses I understand now
Damn shame
We should’ve stuck with the old the new buses not only looks bad it sounds bad
Keeping buses past 20 years is only going to be more expensive in the long run. Plus the New Flyer Xcelsiors and NovaBus LFS units are pretty good
lol depots
I think this whole low floor electric thing is stupid tbh
Why?
@@MysticTransit because I was born 99 and I remember being in the backseat of the car and it was Music to meh ears when I’d hear the new flyers and 2 train (Redbirds) up above being nysnc. And they were much more spacious built better although the mta needs to keep up the maintenance like the beeline
@@MysticTransit me* and could you maybe do a bee line bud video I feel like they never get enough attention
@@trickknight2496 Not everything lasts forever and besides the New Flyer Xcelsiors and NovaBus LFS buses are doing just fine.
Why are North American busses (and most trains) so hideous? Whenever I visit the states or see videos about transit in North America, I'm shocked about those boxes on wheels. It's no wonder public transit is less popular with those vehicles. Its obviously not only the looks, but also the feeling inside, the ride quality, etc. Busses in central Europe are designed to similar principles as cars are worldwide, bright interior spaces, excellent suspension, neat fully integrated exterior designs. Additionally they feature wider and often more doors and most of these doors operate with different mechanisms. None of those busses have had framed windows in decades, so all resembles a clean outside experience. Just google for pictures of "Mercedes Benz Citaro C2" busses or "MAN lions city electric" for a new electric model of another common brand in central Europe. And while you are at it, google for interior pics of those just as a comparison to the unpleasing interiors of North American busses. Some even feature transluminescent bendy bits to make the interior even more pleasing. I wish for every transit enthusiast to have the chance to experience in transit in Europe one day. Cheers.
You trying to make muricans cry?
@@qjtvaddict not on purpose, but always fun 😂
Good point. A lot of that reason is because buses and public-use infrastructure in general have to be made resistant against vandals, especially crazy homeless people, in the USA. Because Canada buys equipment from the USA due to cost savings from tariffs (because of NAFTA), shipping, and handling, and sometimes even manufactures them for American companies, unfortunately, they also have to share the same negatives as American products. I'm sure America and Canada would have had European-quality public infrastructure and public transportation vehicles if it weren't for the vandalism.