I've met him a couple times actually, the first in 1999 and the second in 2007. And I bet he certainly did cuz from what I've heard him say during his presentations at the shows I've attended, he had a grand time developing the character over the course. It was a very rewarding time for him creatively and professionally.
Can anyone appreciate this is a masterful example of acting and compositing? I mean, she's seamlessly interacting with two characters played by the same actor; that takes some doing.
When star Trek does this I always get carried away with the ciene I never feel like I'm watching two actors play the same role like I get in a lot of old TV shows and films.
Troi got more useful screentime on Voyager than her own show, but that is fine cause she is amazing here. Literally one of the first times we see her actually flexing her counselor skills.
Skills? The most terrible tactics you would use on a two year old. Then she gives up & has an outburst. She comes across as the worst counselor in history here
@@christophermcmanus5103 She actually started off quite well. But then she does give up pretty easily after her first attempt doesn't work out. At the end of the day though, it's a TV show that's telling a story. And this is one part of a larger story, not the story itself. They simply don't have time to show her making multiple good attempts that these stubborn men don't respond to. So, in the end, I think @MrRubiksCube657 makes a valid point when you look at her first attempt to reconcile them. I don't remember them allowing her to display that level of skills in TNG or really much of ANY level for that matter.
@@christophermcmanus5103 I like the suggestion of putting yourself in the other person's shoes and it's amazing how many people have difficulty doing that. I think people should start teaching their kids right from wrong when they're really young, but I don't think a two year old would be even capable of seeing a situation from another person's perspective. Also she's not wrong about them being jerks and maybe they should realize that.
@@Frankie2012channel no, she's had scenes before when someone's thought something offensive and she's turned to look directly at them. It's a plot hole this episode.
She initially thought they were "opposite sides" personalities and so intended to initiate conversation by saying they're so similar "that I can't tell the difference". Like when you're trying to resolve conflicts between kids and try to be the least personal as possible to put them on a common ground.
"His femoral nerve is severed. I prescribe one honor killing, to be administered immediately.........AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUGUGGHGUUUGGAAAUUUURRRGGHHH!!!!!!!!"
Counsellor troi/Marina sirtis has had more accents over the years than anyone I've ever known! - First it was half greek half english in the early days of TNG, then fully english by the end of TNG, then half english half American by this episode and now she sounds australian or something! wtf lol
@Dickum N Lickum the V: Emperor Of UA-cam. I don't know. They had holography even in Scotty's prime and thus the 23rd century. True, by the 24th it had become a lot more sophisticated but should still work on the same basic principles. It wouldn't take him long to figure out the nuances.
Great counsellor. She tried one trite analogy, it failed, they had a minor arguement, after only knowing them for 30 seconds, she ran out in frustration and called them both jerks. No wonder she has such a stellar reputation.
@@SukatoKjolen I want to like Deanna (the character; I think Marina did the best she could with the scripts she was given), but I think the one thing she had as a counsellor was her abilities as a half-Betazoid... to detect the emotions and feelings people often keep bottled up, even from themselves. Which, if we are being honest, is probably a great shortcut to solving MANY (inter-)personal problems. But if the person who needed counselling was either already fully cognizant of their mental state, was unable to be read by her (Ferengi, most artificial life forms), and/or was sufficiently stubborn... she was only slightly better than average at her job. Whereas Guinan has spent hundreds of years studying people; often as a bartender - where people often go to unwind, vent, or drown their sorrows. People went to Troy to have her solve their problems. They went to Guinan for a nudge in the right direction.
O'Brien and Worf got DS9, Barclay and Troi got Voyager Spin offs, Data and Picard played major roles in all of the feature films and Riker has appeared across 4 different series. Imagine if the Voyager characters got to develop beyond the series, different surrounding, interaction with different main characters, wouldn't it be great?
Bob (Robert) McNeil guest starred on TNG as Nick Locarno... the dude that got Wesley in trouble. Janeway was in exactly one TNG film (ST: Nemesis). .............. and Harry Kim was still a lowly Ensign even after the events of Nemesis. hahaha!
@@rkmugen kind of the point he was making. Yes the actors appeared but with the exception of Janeway and Now 7 in Picard none of the characters have really appeared outside of Voyager.
Technology changed more rapidly. No physicist in the 1900's would trust someone from the 1800's. With Einstein's theory of relativity that isn't the case, it's the bedrock. Eventually though their will be another incredibly large gap. Maybe 2100's compared to 2000's.
Actually, that question was answered when she talked to Halley. Troi stated that she hadn't felt anything when the hologram was around her. Therefore, I surmise from this conversation that when Troi first walks into the room, she must either concentrate on the person individually or locate him/her using her empathy. It could be when the two doctors were close together, she couldn't tell who was emitting emotion, as the emotions were strong. Just food for thought.
Except Ezri, regardless of holding eight lifetimes of experience, is still a kid. Zimmerman and the EMH would just scare her away before her first minute was up.
@@Daniel-rd6st Also remember though the she was the only counselor to actually take her job seriously and that Garak made a living for who knows how long by manipulating others better than anyone else. And, by the end of the episode she still managed to sort it out. Also, that was right after she got implanted with 8 lifetimes of experience and could barely remember her own name, much less have the mental stability to cure a half-mad raging ex-spy that at that moment despised everyone not from Cardassia, who also has more emotional luggage than everyone else on the station combined and had his homeworld overtaken and in jeopardy... Interactions with Garak should never be the bar one sets when examining a counselor's performance
Oh I remember this episode, Barkley damaged the doctors programming to Dr Zimmerman fix him add bring them closer. It turned out that the EMH Mark 1 was a constant reminder of his failure.
Funny how they try to distinguish holograms as life at this point, but Troi doesn't sense feelings from this life, when she sensed feelings from Data when Lore was feeding him emotion.
It's like an episode of Frasier IN SPACE! Both Picardos are Niles and Frasier, Troy is Daphne, Barclay is Martin. Presumable the hologram with no emotions is SPACE! Roz.
I like her too. She went from being a slightly distant and exotic princess type to being someone who might actually be quite fun. I thought it was unfortunate that the lack of interpersonal conflict meant that the role of counsellor came off as superfluous quite a bit of the time
I can't believe I never saw this episode. Now I'm piercing it all together. God it's the best rush ever. A whole new piece of voyager I never saw. Eeeeeee. 💚💚💚💚💚
Both the TNG and V character left Starfleet under a cloud. I love how it's the same actor. What made me laugh out loud was the Lizard's line at the end. V was at it's best 4 onwards.
She gave up after 2 minutes lol. Also, he’s only 7 years out of date, not 100. And he’s made many monumental discoveries in the Delta Quadrant which I would think would put his knowledge level with docs in the AQ. Just in a different way.
"Really, Doctor? _100_ years ago?" It depends. The prequel producers seem to think the technology of hundreds of years in the past was at least as good if not better than that of present day.
She can read minds, but barely. An example was shown in Nemesis where she was able to telepathically locate the enemies ship by reading one of their minds.
The Viceroy in Nemesis was actually the one who had established a long range telepathic link with her. She simply traced it back to him. She is capable of telepathy with other Betazoids, and with people she is especially close to such as Riker. But her half human heritage diminished her total Betazoid abilities.
I like at the end of the episode he is kind of like a son and estranged father have reconciled. The “father” tells his “son” to write him a letter to let him know what he’s been up to back in the Delta Quadrant.
That last line from Deanna - "I'm an empath. I haven't sensed any emotions from you" - by that logic, it seems as though we already have holograms among us.
Two answers: 1. they were too close together. Her sensing ability could not different from wich one the emotions came. 2. She knew. She just wanted to see their reaction to get a read on the Situation. She is a professional so she propably knew how Dr. Zimmerman looked. And if nothing else, the older guy in a Bathrobe is propably not the EMH Mk1.
Christopher, i don't buy those explains. On TNG she could single each person emotions, even on a room full of ppl close to each other.. Also emotions of single ppl of a diferent ship (like a commander is hiding something). All that not to mention that she is a counselur... her job and studies are to single out emotions to help ppl
Troi- You're a hologram. Hologram- How did you know? Troi- I'm an empathy, I have not sensed any emotion from you? Picard- All the alien races we dealt with on the Enterprise were holograms!?
No. Hands down, and I wager if you asked any actor in Trek's history, Andrew Robinson who played Garak in DS9 is probably the best 'actor' across all of Trek. That man ran a marathon of acting compared to any other cast member in Trek. Specifically in Voyager, yeah Picardo was pretty damn good. I'd say third place would have to be René Auberjonois as Odo.
A very sad thing about this scene is that Troi is being a very good character here. And Marina's acting is really good here. Why did we never get to see this on TNG? She is such a wasted potential and here it really shows how good the actor and character actually are, if used correctly... Instead of just "he's hiding something".
Because TNG was misogynistic. Troi was defined by being overwhelmed by emotion. Yar was defined by running from "rape gangs." Crusher was defined by motherhood.
BUT it would be a sign of the grossest incompetence coming from a real professional counselor. That Troi traveled light years for this session, and then completely lost her self-control in just a few minutes, is beyond appalling. As much as I adore Sirtis, and considered it a great privilege just to be able to gaze upon her again when this episode first aired, I was completely disappointed with the writers for allowing that huge a gaffe in her character.
Now, what would have let her use that line while keeping in character as a real counselor would have been if she came to a point where she said "excuse me, please," left the room, and as soon as the doors were closed exclaimed "those guys are both jerks!"
Bit of a false equivalent to compare a 7 year old holo-doctor that was only discontinued because of its unlikable personality to "an engineer from a 100 years ago". But hey, that's more of Troi's invaluable psycho-analysis.
I'm sure there a lot more people who would have a lot more faith in Nikola Tesla than engineering school grad, despite the fact the grad has more knowledge about how the current world works. Telsa had ingenuity while the grad has the knowledge people like Tesla discovered, chances are high if Tesla were to be exposed to technology from today, he would learn it's workings rapidly and quickly begin to expand upon it. Not sure if that's the greatest comparison, but I think it get's my point across that age has no bearing on intelligence, at least within the time-span of recorded history, and only the knowledge we have discovered within that time frame.
*miracle worker from 83 years ago The Jenolan was found in 2369 after 75 years with Scotty on board (in stasis via transporter), and this episode apparently takes place in 2377 or 8 years later from the events of the episode Relics, give or take a few months.
Especially as the doctor has years of experience in the delta quadrant, being exposed to new cultures and technologies plus how long does it take him to download the latest information, one or two seconds?
Tuvok was also on TNG. Season 6 episode. In Generations and TNG he wasn't Tuvok but just human characters. Paris actor was in TNG and that's the character Voyager originally wanted but due to legal issues they couldn't use that character so they created Tom Paris. Same actor though.
Hmm...admittedly, I am no therapist (professional or otherwise), but I'm pretty sure no competent psychologist would refer to their patients as "jerks" and storm out after barely four minutes of interacting with them. It's a wonder the crew of Enterprise still found themselves psychologically fit for the rigors of space exploration after 7 years of Troi's "help" :P
@@FullCircleStories Once again, I'm pretty sure that's not standard practice for a competent professional. It seems a lot more likely that Troi is just a shitty psychiatrist and/or counselor...
even though she has advanced psychology qualifications, her position is as a counselor and counselors do not act the same way as psychologists. counselors listen while patients talk out their problems. and here she is a diplomatic liason when she marries riker and joins him in his new ship. So she is a diplomatic liason in this scene. Diana is just very human, and gets frustrated, that's all. Her empathetic abilities and part telepathic were extremely useful through all of the TNG.
3:24 Um, sorry, why did Deanna call the Doctor a jerk as well as Dr. Zimmerman? Sure, the Doctor just lashed out and said "You'd need a phaser drill to get through that thick skull of his!", thereby showing he has the same personality as Zimmerman. But that's because he's frustrated that Zimmerman won't cooperate and allow the Doctor to help him. And the Doctor did just point out that he risked leaving Voyager without a surgeon (even though Tom Paris has been assisting him in sickbay since Kes left) to come and help him. So, why is Deanna calling the Doctor a jerk when all he's done is make a huge effort to have his program transferred from a long distance to help his creator, who is being uncooperative?
The simple answer is that she's probably just a bad psychiatrist. The handful of episodes where we got to see her working showed she had some very...questionable methodology when it came to her work as a therapist
Counselor Troi's expertise is in healing the psychological wounds of pleasant agreeable people. She just goes out and thrashes unpleasant, difficult people.
i always thought it was interesting that Deanna asked which one was Doctor Zimmerman.. as if she could not tell the photon doctor from the flesh and blood doctor, yet she knew immediately that Haley was a hologram, because she sensed no emotions from her. Was it simply because the doctor and Zimmerman were standing so close together when Deanna entered the room? Was it a writing error? Was Deanna simply not given enough information, and did not know if Doctor Zimmerman was the human or the hologram? Or was it an intentional ploy on Deanna's part? Remember she said she had came thinking the men were opposite sides of the same coin.. pretending to have trouble telling them apart would have reinforced the idea that they were really the same and therefore should both be capable of coming to a rational solution. There is precedent for both that level of wit in the writing AND for it being a writing error.. Only the writer of that script could ever tell me the real answer; any one else would be speculating.
Real answer: the writers messed up, because Troi is a conceptually flawed character who has to be dumbed down to keep her from becoming too powerful and making most story resolutions too easy Fanon answer: the two doctors were standing side by side, reflecting the same outward emotional reaction, and they're essentially the same person. Versus Reg and his holographic girl-toy, in which Troi can easily tell the difference between Reg's nervous simp energy and the relatively calm female-presenting individual in the room.
I was angry at Troi for calling the Doctor /the Voyager EMH/ a jerk simply because he verbally fought back after being brutally insulted by his creator. He'd been as patient as he possibly could with him up until that point but he'd reached his breaking point in this video so Troi had no right to call the Voyager EMH a jerk when he'd behaved in a polite and respectful manner compared to his creator. They should've shown a scene where she apologized to him but instead, the writers made it seem as if she was right and that the Voyager EMH was just as responsible for the big squabble as his creator which is stupid.
it been long establish writer have no idea how councilor actually work. or even how a semi military ship work. I say semi cause some writer keep saying that star fleet isn't a military organization. they just so happen to have ranks, promotions and weapons
@@Marveryn It's more of a blend of Military and Civil organizations. So while it's not so rigid, they do take basic military style training into account.
"The last beautiful woman who walked in here turned out to be _him!"_
"I'll take that as a compliment."
😂😂
"He's a mark 1, I'd be in better hands with a Klingon Field Medic"
Pure gold.
Klingon medical textbook: whenever in doubt, disembowel your patient with your d'k tahg to ensure they have an honourable death.
Robert and Picardo have great chemistry.
horaciosi it’s almost like they’re the same person!
@@philbertchow5425 Almost 🤣
🤣 good one
They ARE the same person!
😂
I bet Robert Picardo had a lot of fun doing this episode.
Pretty sure Robert Picardo has a lot of fun doing any episode where there's more Robert Picardo in it. ;) It's an actor thing.
I loved his guest appearance on The Orville, with so many other former ST actors.
@@mangaranwow2543 - the Orville is bee jelly to the saddened CBS Trek soul :)
Most Likely,
I've met him a couple times actually, the first in 1999 and the second in 2007. And I bet he certainly did cuz from what I've heard him say during his presentations at the shows I've attended, he had a grand time developing the character over the course. It was a very rewarding time for him creatively and professionally.
Can anyone appreciate this is a masterful example of acting and compositing? I mean, she's seamlessly interacting with two characters played by the same actor; that takes some doing.
Yes but she is an empath. She senses their emotions.
@@stephenhowe4107 Not the Doctor's. But I guess she can sense jerkness even in holograms.
When star Trek does this I always get carried away with the ciene I never feel like I'm watching two actors play the same role like I get in a lot of old TV shows and films.
@@stephenhowe4107 blamthe writer's they never could get it right depending on the plot
Troi got more useful screentime on Voyager than her own show, but that is fine cause she is amazing here. Literally one of the first times we see her actually flexing her counselor skills.
Skills?
The most terrible tactics you would use on a two year old. Then she gives up & has an outburst.
She comes across as the worst counselor in history here
Guinan was better
@@christophermcmanus5103 Guess again. She knows her audience and knows what will work on them.
@@christophermcmanus5103 She actually started off quite well. But then she does give up pretty easily after her first attempt doesn't work out. At the end of the day though, it's a TV show that's telling a story. And this is one part of a larger story, not the story itself. They simply don't have time to show her making multiple good attempts that these stubborn men don't respond to. So, in the end, I think @MrRubiksCube657 makes a valid point when you look at her first attempt to reconcile them. I don't remember them allowing her to display that level of skills in TNG or really much of ANY level for that matter.
@@christophermcmanus5103 I like the suggestion of putting yourself in the other person's shoes and it's amazing how many people have difficulty doing that. I think people should start teaching their kids right from wrong when they're really young, but I don't think a two year old would be even capable of seeing a situation from another person's perspective.
Also she's not wrong about them being jerks and maybe they should realize that.
"Which one is Dr. Zimmerman?" Well, the one you can sense emotions from, of course.
True, but the two men are in close proximity to each other. She might be momentarily questioning her own perceptions and just wanted to make sure.
@@Frankie2012channel no, she's had scenes before when someone's thought something offensive and she's turned to look directly at them. It's a plot hole this episode.
@@sarcasticstartrek7719 She was most likely just being polite to the both of them and trying to make them feel at ease.
She initially thought they were "opposite sides" personalities and so intended to initiate conversation by saying they're so similar "that I can't tell the difference". Like when you're trying to resolve conflicts between kids and try to be the least personal as possible to put them on a common ground.
@@sarcasticstartrek7719 same with 'Tin Man'.
Counselor Troi's former patient didn't even notice Data til he spoke up.
A Klingon field medic? That is an interesting image. "Open chest wound? Have some bloodwine and call me in the morning."
"Klingon's make great warriors, but terrible doctors." - General Martok
Oh My!
"His femoral nerve is severed. I prescribe one honor killing, to be administered immediately.........AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUGUGGHGUUUGGAAAUUUURRRGGHHH!!!!!!!!"
"A Fleshwound? Don't worry, I can cut it out!"
Don Gilleo lol, that was my first thought!
"You're both jerks!" Professional counsellor Commander Deanna Troi, everybody
Around this time Marina Sirtis stopped playing Deanna Troi and started playing herself.
She's observant, one MUST give her THAT much!
I think the honesty is refreshing.
Damn. Troi did more counseling in this scene alone than she ever did on tng
*enter Troi*
"You are too difficult to counsel!"
*Troi exits*
Good effort, experienced counselor
I don't remember Troi ever once being a successful counselor. Everyone on the Enterprise went to Guinan.
She actually tried reverse psychology with both
Same old Troi
“Oh I give up, there’s no convincing you.”
Counsellor troi/Marina sirtis has had more accents over the years than anyone I've ever known! - First it was half greek half english in the early days of TNG, then fully english by the end of TNG, then half english half American by this episode and now she sounds australian or something! wtf lol
lol - Only Marina Sirtis had the aussie accent. It is marinas true accents. She was half greek or something I think
Russian in that one episode of Stargate
Accents change a lot
She sounds like a Brummie in real life. The general Englishness was poking through constantly in this video. Very jarring.
Her accent is stuck on a Trans-Atlantic flight.
I liked Robert Picardo warring aganist himself.
A hundred years ago? In the case of Scotty? Why not!
Scotty: I don't know what this will do to you, but it's green.
Me: Sounds good to me.
Remember when Scotty walked around the Enterprise D and caused problems?
I'll take scottys help anyday, at the very least you'd have fun, even if he couldn't help your ailment.
@Dickum N Lickum the V: Emperor Of UA-cam. I don't know. They had holography even in Scotty's prime and thus the 23rd century. True, by the 24th it had become a lot more sophisticated but should still work on the same basic principles. It wouldn't take him long to figure out the nuances.
He didn't know how to repair or even service the Enterprise when he was working with Geordi La Forge
Great counsellor. She tried one trite analogy, it failed, they had a minor arguement, after only knowing them for 30 seconds, she ran out in frustration and called them both jerks. No wonder she has such a stellar reputation.
It is in these moments I like to remind people that when anyone needed guidance on the Enterprise, they went to Guinan.
@@SukatoKjolen I want to like Deanna (the character; I think Marina did the best she could with the scripts she was given), but I think the one thing she had as a counsellor was her abilities as a half-Betazoid... to detect the emotions and feelings people often keep bottled up, even from themselves. Which, if we are being honest, is probably a great shortcut to solving MANY (inter-)personal problems.
But if the person who needed counselling was either already fully cognizant of their mental state, was unable to be read by her (Ferengi, most artificial life forms), and/or was sufficiently stubborn... she was only slightly better than average at her job.
Whereas Guinan has spent hundreds of years studying people; often as a bartender - where people often go to unwind, vent, or drown their sorrows.
People went to Troy to have her solve their problems. They went to Guinan for a nudge in the right direction.
This is just the first session. They don't all start out auspiciouscly.
Dianna relies on her ability to sense emotions. She can't sense the Doctors emotions so it is harder for her.
So don't *_poke_* go *_poke_* criticizing *_poke_* her *_poke_* counseling *_poke_* technique! *_poke_*
O'Brien and Worf got DS9, Barclay and Troi got Voyager Spin offs, Data and Picard played major roles in all of the feature films and Riker has appeared across 4 different series. Imagine if the Voyager characters got to develop beyond the series, different surrounding, interaction with different main characters, wouldn't it be great?
UTubeTulip Yes, I love good crossovers. Trek didn't always get this right but the Voyager crossovers were all really good.
Tom Paris had a full episode in tng (under a different identity). Janeway was in at least one of the films.
Bob (Robert) McNeil guest starred on TNG as Nick Locarno... the dude that got Wesley in trouble. Janeway was in exactly one TNG film (ST: Nemesis). .............. and Harry Kim was still a lowly Ensign even after the events of Nemesis. hahaha!
The EMH was in First Contact. Ethan Phillips was in the same holodeck scene but not as Neelix.
@@rkmugen kind of the point he was making. Yes the actors appeared but with the exception of Janeway and Now 7 in Picard none of the characters have really appeared outside of Voyager.
You'd think the writers would have gotten around to giving Troi some actual skills as a counselor by this point.
No, she still kinda sucks. At least the women in all subsequent Treks were competent.
@@mmjahink problem is trek writers aren't trained tharpists so they dont know what there talking about
@@matthewjones2095 Good point, if only scriptwriters had it in mind to do some research...
@@mmjahink remeber that stuff was harder in the 90s
@@matthewjones2095 Researching? Dude, have you ever heard of libraries?
'Would you trust an engineer from a hundred years ago"
Montgomery Scott? Sure as hell I would
Technology changed more rapidly. No physicist in the 1900's would trust someone from the 1800's.
With Einstein's theory of relativity that isn't the case, it's the bedrock.
Eventually though their will be another incredibly large gap.
Maybe 2100's compared to 2000's.
"Treating me like an antique..."
You know, antiques are generally treated quite well, for preservation.
But not looked upon for their modernity or functionality.
@@TheBlarggle vinyl record technology is over 100 years old but it still exists in some form in the 21st century.
The Holodoc can be preserved on deck 6.
If said engineer was Montgomery Scott, I wouldn't have a problem. Just saying.
chrismc410 “Are ye mad, Doctor? It will take me whole team two weeks just tae find yer mobile emitter!”
Nah
aperson22222 “you have one week”
+chrismc410 Have you seen Relics?
Well Scotty is still kicking in the 24th Century after the TNG episode Relics...
Actually, that question was answered when she talked to Halley. Troi stated that she hadn't felt anything when the hologram was around her. Therefore, I surmise from this conversation that when Troi first walks into the room, she must either concentrate on the person individually or locate him/her using her empathy. It could be when the two doctors were close together, she couldn't tell who was emitting emotion, as the emotions were strong. Just food for thought.
by that point the doctor had emotions and expressed them strongly so they were causing interference and likely throwing her off
Or she could be joking.
Lol... an engineer from 100 years ago? My dear, I thought you met Montgomery Scott. :p
3:27 That's telling 'em Leonard!
You know she's right when the holographic iguana agrees with her.
"I'm an empath, I haven't sensed any emotions from you."
*sniff* "Well maybe if asked..."
"I'm done. Call Ezri!"
Except Ezri, regardless of holding eight lifetimes of experience, is still a kid. Zimmerman and the EMH would just scare her away before her first minute was up.
@@multificionado5019 plus Ezri was technically a counseling in training when she ended up on Ds9.
@@multificionado5019 jep still remember her first run in with Garak. It didnt go too well...
@@Daniel-rd6st Also remember though the she was the only counselor to actually take her job seriously and that Garak made a living for who knows how long by manipulating others better than anyone else. And, by the end of the episode she still managed to sort it out. Also, that was right after she got implanted with 8 lifetimes of experience and could barely remember her own name, much less have the mental stability to cure a half-mad raging ex-spy that at that moment despised everyone not from Cardassia, who also has more emotional luggage than everyone else on the station combined and had his homeworld overtaken and in jeopardy... Interactions with Garak should never be the bar one sets when examining a counselor's performance
@@floppydisksareop Even so, she did fine and even grew considerably thanks to him. Another season or 2 with her would've really helped cement that.
Picardo is a great actor... and I love his character 😆
Oh I remember this episode, Barkley damaged the doctors programming to Dr Zimmerman fix him add bring them closer.
It turned out that the EMH Mark 1 was a constant reminder of his failure.
Troi has always been great. But the acting chops on the dr are also marvilous. Such a great cast.
Funny how they try to distinguish holograms as life at this point, but Troi doesn't sense feelings from this life, when she sensed feelings from Data when Lore was feeding him emotion.
it is the brain.
It's like an episode of Frasier IN SPACE! Both Picardos are Niles and Frasier, Troy is Daphne, Barclay is Martin. Presumable the hologram with no emotions is SPACE! Roz.
Robert picardo in my opinion had the best character dev when it came to doctors in ST he is my favorite for a number of reasons
Love Troi. Wonderfull Woman!
Women are innately obsessed with c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ men, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ milk, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cereal, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ syrup, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ candy, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cake, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cookies c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ ice cream, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cloths, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ hats, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ shoes, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ underwear etc, for example *Troi* is innately obsessed with c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ men, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ milk, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cereal, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ syrup, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ candy, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cake, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cookies c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ ice cream, etc.
Tomy Kuf wonderful boobies
In real life she is an insane feminist harpie
She's grown progressively better since her first days on TNG.
I like her too. She went from being a slightly distant and exotic princess type to being someone who might actually be quite fun. I thought it was unfortunate that the lack of interpersonal conflict meant that the role of counsellor came off as superfluous quite a bit of the time
I can't believe I never saw this episode. Now I'm piercing it all together. God it's the best rush ever. A whole new piece of voyager I never saw. Eeeeeee. 💚💚💚💚💚
Anything with Reg in too.
What an amazing performance from both actors; The hologram doctor and Deanna Troi.
The character Tom Paris was based on started in that TNG episode yes. Tim Russ played a human in Generations now Tuvok. ;)
Tim Russ was also the bad guy with welding torch in Starship Mine...
Both the TNG and V character left Starfleet under a cloud. I love how it's the same actor.
What made me laugh out loud was the Lizard's line at the end. V was at it's best 4 onwards.
wow Troi. You didn't last 2 minutes in a room with these two and you're meant to be the best Counseler in Starfleet O.o
Well she did crash the Enterprise-D (hadn't crashed the E yet at this point), bound to knock one's confidence... :P
To be fair, having these two in the same room would make things a lot more complicated for anyone
She was only considered the best due to plot armor
Love it when Deanna calls Lewis and doc jerks.
She gave up after 2 minutes lol. Also, he’s only 7 years out of date, not 100. And he’s made many monumental discoveries in the Delta Quadrant which I would think would put his knowledge level with docs in the AQ. Just in a different way.
"I haven't sensed any emotions from you"
"No no, that's just my terrible acting"
Zylbad hey, be nice
"Sorry, I'm still stuck on Tasha."
"I haven't sensed any emotions from you."
"I know. You would have said something vapid and predictable if you had."
"No no, _that's just the six years of Kolinahr paying off"_
Marina Sirtis was damn fit and still looking amazing in this episode.
Women are innately obsessed with c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ men, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ milk, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cereal, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ syrup, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ candy, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cake, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cookies c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ ice cream, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cloths, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ hats, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ shoes, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ underwear etc, for example *Troi* is innately obsessed with c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ men, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ milk, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cereal, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ syrup, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ candy, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cake, c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ cookies c̲h̲o̲c̲o̲l̲a̲t̲e̲ ice cream, etc.
.................................. there's lemon shrimp, pepper shrimp.... (5 days later)...... shrimp and potatoes, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich..... that.... that's about it.
@@rkmugen wtf r u on about
I would have preferred to see an episode of her attending a Betazoid Wedding, she would have looked a lot fitter then!
It's all those leotard stretches with Dr. Crusher.
When her role in voyager does more counseling than 90% of TNG episodes lol.
It's a great episode. I like Deanna Troi. 🤓
Haha Robert said in an interview he was very happy to have worked with an actor he admired a lot for a long time :-D
So this is after Marina Sirtis
forgot how Counselor Troi talked lol.
"Really, Doctor? _100_ years ago?"
It depends. The prequel producers seem to think the technology of hundreds of years in the past was at least as good if not better than that of present day.
PFFFFFF yeah XD good comment
"You're a hologram"
"How do you know?"
"Oh I'm not able to casually read your mind without your permission or consent. Nice to meet you!"
As far as I'm aware her abilities don't extend to mind reading.
Being an empath does not mean mind reading, just sensing emotions.
you know what, you just read my mind , Muahahahahahah terrible jokes for the win
She can read minds, but barely. An example was shown in Nemesis where she was able to telepathically locate the enemies ship by reading one of their minds.
The Viceroy in Nemesis was actually the one who had established a long range telepathic link with her. She simply traced it back to him. She is capable of telepathy with other Betazoids, and with people she is especially close to such as Riker. But her half human heritage diminished her total Betazoid abilities.
I loved how often Troi turned up in Voyager!
I like at the end of the episode he is kind of like a son and estranged father have reconciled. The “father” tells his “son” to write him a letter to let him know what he’s been up to back in the Delta Quadrant.
Definitely the emh sounds like an unloved son in this scene ;)
This has to be one of the only faviorate episodes of voyager
Damn, but that war uniform was probably the best one Star Trek ever had.
That last line from Deanna - "I'm an empath. I haven't sensed any emotions from you" - by that logic, it seems as though we already have holograms among us.
so why wasnt she able to tell......... who was the doctor......... and who was lewis
TRUE
Deanna was being polite.
Two answers:
1. they were too close together. Her sensing ability could not different from wich one the emotions came.
2. She knew. She just wanted to see their reaction to get a read on the Situation. She is a professional so she propably knew how Dr. Zimmerman looked. And if nothing else, the older guy in a Bathrobe is propably not the EMH Mk1.
Christopher, i don't buy those explains. On TNG she could single each person emotions, even on a room full of ppl close to each other.. Also emotions of single ppl of a diferent ship (like a commander is hiding something).
All that not to mention that she is a counselur... her job and studies are to single out emotions to help ppl
+1300l: So you are just making point 2 more likely.
Troi- You're a hologram.
Hologram- How did you know?
Troi- I'm an empathy, I have not sensed any emotion from you?
Picard- All the alien races we dealt with on the Enterprise were holograms!?
Omg, Bob Odenkirk, I did not expect that!
How was Voyager's doctor a jerk?? He didn't do anything wrong
It could also be that Troi feels it an invasion of privacy to start sensing emotions of everyone in a room when she's only there for one person.
-You're hologram.
-How do you know?
-You have no smell.
I don't care what anyone said Voyager was a good TV show would love to have seen them do a movie
Robert Picardo was the best actor in the series.
No. Hands down, and I wager if you asked any actor in Trek's history, Andrew Robinson who played Garak in DS9 is probably the best 'actor' across all of Trek. That man ran a marathon of acting compared to any other cast member in Trek. Specifically in Voyager, yeah Picardo was pretty damn good. I'd say third place would have to be René Auberjonois as Odo.
@@IdgaradLyracant Please. Garak is a cartoon. You just really like a really bad Trek show.
A very sad thing about this scene is that Troi is being a very good character here. And Marina's acting is really good here.
Why did we never get to see this on TNG? She is such a wasted potential and here it really shows how good the actor and character actually are, if used correctly... Instead of just "he's hiding something".
Her acting wasn't anything especial.
Because TNG was misogynistic. Troi was defined by being overwhelmed by emotion. Yar was defined by running from "rape gangs." Crusher was defined by motherhood.
Great video I didn't know that Troy was on the other Show too. Cool
"You're both JERKS!" has me in hysterics not gonna lie to you
BUT it would be a sign of the grossest incompetence coming from a real professional counselor. That Troi traveled light years for this session, and then completely lost her self-control in just a few minutes, is beyond appalling. As much as I adore Sirtis, and considered it a great privilege just to be able to gaze upon her again when this episode first aired, I was completely disappointed with the writers for allowing that huge a gaffe in her character.
Now, what would have let her use that line while keeping in character as a real counselor would have been if she came to a point where she said "excuse me, please," left the room, and as soon as the doors were closed exclaimed "those guys are both jerks!"
@@timothytikker3834 Get over yourself
@@timothytikker3834 Get over yourself
Bit of a false equivalent to compare a 7 year old holo-doctor that was only discontinued because of its unlikable personality to "an engineer from a 100 years ago". But hey, that's more of Troi's invaluable psycho-analysis.
Definitely not Psychoanalysis; more like Rational Emotive Therapy.
to be fair hes older then 7 years
I'm sure there a lot more people who would have a lot more faith in Nikola Tesla than engineering school grad, despite the fact the grad has more knowledge about how the current world works. Telsa had ingenuity while the grad has the knowledge people like Tesla discovered, chances are high if Tesla were to be exposed to technology from today, he would learn it's workings rapidly and quickly begin to expand upon it.
Not sure if that's the greatest comparison, but I think it get's my point across that age has no bearing on intelligence, at least within the time-span of recorded history, and only the knowledge we have discovered within that time frame.
*miracle worker from 83 years ago
The Jenolan was found in 2369 after 75 years with Scotty on board (in stasis via transporter), and this episode apparently takes place in 2377 or 8 years later from the events of the episode Relics, give or take a few months.
Especially as the doctor has years of experience in the delta quadrant, being exposed to new cultures and technologies plus how long does it take him to download the latest information, one or two seconds?
She is an absolute work of art
"You're both two sides of the same coin!"
_That's what V2 is for!_
smart holo-lizard is smart
Pity it cannot be more chatty
"Jerks." If only someone followed-up with this line: "I couldn't agree more."
holo lizard that repeats words like a parrot
@@jgood005 Even better point! :)
Jerks
Crossover episodes where always the best
'Oh spare us your psychobabble!' My god it's Niles Crane!
Brilliant performance as always in ST.
Deanna looks at the console like "why does this thing look like a Tardis?"
Wow, I never noticed Doanna's voice go like that before 🙂
Yeah, her accent was all over the place. She was definitely out of practice at this point.
I think it was a mistake to change Starfleet's uniforms to grey and black. It made them more difficult to tell them apart.
The very first shot in this video almost made me jump out of my seat. :D
Robert Picardo is ana amazing actor
3:26, the lizard wins this scene lol.
“You’re both JERKS!”
"Jerks"
Reg is trapped in the friend zone..lol 😁🤣
It`s very funny. I like this episode.
Holy crap! Did Troi do her job right for a change?!!
she outsmarted the system...no uniform, no orders!!! She just went along for the ride!!!
tom paris was on tng, tuvok was in star trek: generations, and admiral janeway was in nemesis.
Tuvok was also on TNG. Season 6 episode. In Generations and TNG he wasn't Tuvok but just human characters. Paris actor was in TNG and that's the character Voyager originally wanted but due to legal issues they couldn't use that character so they created Tom Paris. Same actor though.
This and TNG are the only Star Trek I need
Troi: you both are jerks.
Jerks: hold our cups please.
What she really means is, "I'm an empath, I didn't feel the usual instinctive rush of horny arousal the instant you saw me."
Good question, never thought of that. Nor did the writers obviously!
Hmm...admittedly, I am no therapist (professional or otherwise), but I'm pretty sure no competent psychologist would refer to their patients as "jerks" and storm out after barely four minutes of interacting with them. It's a wonder the crew of Enterprise still found themselves psychologically fit for the rigors of space exploration after 7 years of Troi's "help" :P
It was deliberate! Made them stop and think for a second
@@FullCircleStories Once again, I'm pretty sure that's not standard practice for a competent professional. It seems a lot more likely that Troi is just a shitty psychiatrist and/or counselor...
Therapist are usually the most screwed up one in a room full of crazies.
even though she has advanced psychology qualifications, her position is as a counselor and counselors do not act the same way as psychologists. counselors listen while patients talk out their problems. and here she is a diplomatic liason when she marries riker and joins him in his new ship. So she is a diplomatic liason in this scene. Diana is just very human, and gets frustrated, that's all. Her empathetic abilities and part telepathic were extremely useful through all of the TNG.
Robert The key personnel rarely if ever submitted themselves to her care.
2:19
Voyager predicted the "conditional hypotheticals" meme, i.e., "how do you think you'd feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning?"
@Celinancc1701
Agreed. Robert Picardo rocks.
And TNG guest appearances were the best voyagers.
Picardo reminds me of Steven Ogg (Trevor from GTAV).
Very good episode! Is there more!
3:24 Um, sorry, why did Deanna call the Doctor a jerk as well as Dr. Zimmerman? Sure, the Doctor just lashed out and said "You'd need a phaser drill to get through that thick skull of his!", thereby showing he has the same personality as Zimmerman. But that's because he's frustrated that Zimmerman won't cooperate and allow the Doctor to help him. And the Doctor did just point out that he risked leaving Voyager without a surgeon (even though Tom Paris has been assisting him in sickbay since Kes left) to come and help him. So, why is Deanna calling the Doctor a jerk when all he's done is make a huge effort to have his program transferred from a long distance to help his creator, who is being uncooperative?
The simple answer is that she's probably just a bad psychiatrist. The handful of episodes where we got to see her working showed she had some very...questionable methodology when it came to her work as a therapist
@@Robert-hz9bj And she probably soon realises that at 3:34.
Lol how my future self is going to argue with my self.
Counselor Troi's expertise is in healing the psychological wounds of pleasant agreeable people. She just goes out and thrashes unpleasant, difficult people.
Sometimes you need tough love.
i always thought it was interesting that Deanna asked which one was Doctor Zimmerman.. as if she could not tell the photon doctor from the flesh and blood doctor, yet she knew immediately that Haley was a hologram, because she sensed no emotions from her.
Was it simply because the doctor and Zimmerman were standing so close together when Deanna entered the room?
Was it a writing error?
Was Deanna simply not given enough information, and did not know if Doctor Zimmerman was the human or the hologram?
Or was it an intentional ploy on Deanna's part? Remember she said she had came thinking the men were opposite sides of the same coin..
pretending to have trouble telling them apart would have reinforced the idea that they were really the same and therefore should both be capable of coming to a rational solution.
There is precedent for both that level of wit in the writing AND for it being a writing error..
Only the writer of that script could ever tell me the real answer; any one else would be speculating.
As an Empath....if the 2 were standing next to each other there may be difficulty discerning "who" she's "feeling/sensing".
She's also not as gifted as a 100% natural born betazoid. She's half human.
Real answer: the writers messed up, because Troi is a conceptually flawed character who has to be dumbed down to keep her from becoming too powerful and making most story resolutions too easy
Fanon answer: the two doctors were standing side by side, reflecting the same outward emotional reaction, and they're essentially the same person. Versus Reg and his holographic girl-toy, in which Troi can easily tell the difference between Reg's nervous simp energy and the relatively calm female-presenting individual in the room.
I think it was probably her way of being sarcastic. that's what I'd like to think anyway.
@@seriousoldman8997 yeah, she's actually talking to Zimmerman
I still like him as “The Cowboy”!
lol the iguana talked :)
Those damn holograms, theres so many of them, coming over here, taking our jobs and women. ;)
The Doctor was even given a sex organ.
What an amazing advancement in technology. But no one looked at it that way.
She's being polite.
I was angry at Troi for calling the Doctor /the Voyager EMH/ a jerk simply because he verbally fought back after being brutally insulted by his creator. He'd been as patient as he possibly could with him up until that point but he'd reached his breaking point in this video so Troi had no right to call the Voyager EMH a jerk when he'd behaved in a polite and respectful manner compared to his creator.
They should've shown a scene where she apologized to him but instead, the writers made it seem as if she was right and that the Voyager EMH was just as responsible for the big squabble as his creator which is stupid.
it been long establish writer have no idea how councilor actually work. or even how a semi military ship work. I say semi cause some writer keep saying that star fleet isn't a military organization. they just so happen to have ranks, promotions and weapons
@@Marveryn It's more of a blend of Military and Civil organizations. So while it's not so rigid, they do take basic military style training into account.
By calling them both jerks she gives them common cause.