The REAL Origin of the X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2019
- Scott dives into the X-Men universe to explain the real origin of the Dark Phoenix Saga. How did this cosmic comic book event starring Jean Grey come to be? What happened behind the scenes in Marvel history that inspired this iconic Phoenix story?
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How to Create a Legend (Dave Cockrum's designs for the X-Men)
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Dave Cockrum Interview - TwoMorrows Publishing
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The Origin of the Phoenix Saga - Jim Shooter
jimshooter.com/2011/06/origin-...
Some Marvel Tales and Other Horror Stories - Jim Shooter
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#XMen #DarkPhoenix #videoessay
"Why isn't anyone stopping Oscar Isaac" Might be my favorite thing i've heard this past month
Has anyone seen Jim Shooter and Oscar isaac in the same room, together?
Made me laugh and snort out loud.
I am bald, and I can confirm that the ritual thing is true.
Agreed!! 😂🤣
When???
I'm glad to see comic misconceptions evolve over the years into........... This. Whatever this is now. It's really really good.
Right, this channel has evolved greatly.
@U Damu Oh! Okay so back when Scott was starting on youtube, actually stretching from 2013 to at least 2015 or 2016, his format was a bunch of weekly 3-10 minute videos into a single small topic of comics. Fairly clickbaity material, somewhat surface level analysis, and entirely my jam when I was, well, an early teenager when those videos first came out. Eventually stretched out into another series, Tie-In, where he wears a tie and talks about adaptations, and also replying to comments. Fast forward to today, and Scott is taking month(s) between videos, but those videos have exceptional production values, and incredible depths of analysis.
You can also see the unused themes left over from the Phoenix Saga being called on for years later in Claremont's work on the X-Men: the desire for a sympathetic Dr. Doom for the X-Men? That became Claremont's revision of Magneto from a stereotypical cackling, world conquering madman into the magnificent well-intentioned extremist Holocaust survivor we love today. Phoenix having to deal with having her godlike power stripped from her? That resurfaced in Storm's loss of her powers at the muzzle of Forge's Neutralizer and her subsequent struggle with being "just plain folks." The Phoenix Saga really defined the X-Men in core ways for the next decade.
Phoenix is Superman reversed, she is injustice Superman, waiting to become the good Superman that we all know and love.
Superman is a great character but his tale is literally he holding his power and don't becoming tyranical, if (or as some say "when") this happens, it would be DC Apocalypse.
Jean Grey/ Phoenix is the opposite, she is and always have been a walking talking apocalypse, one that the X-men always have to deal with it, with tragic consequences.
But what if after all the tragedy, all deaths, all chaos something beautiful emerge? What if, out of the miserable Jean Grey existence, something beautiful is born? What if Phoenix is the BIG S in the chest of Marvel?
Dark Phoenix is what we call Arizona's capital during a black out
Hah!
Unrelated but Atlanta put a phoenix on it's city crest after Sherman burned it down during the Civil War
@@sydnamon5986
Atlanta, Georgia, had an intense death and resurrection for sure.
Phoenix, Arizona, lives with constant burning, and has already had a couple days over 110 farenheit this year. I'm still trying to figure out why Phoenix even exists were it does and I've lived in Arizona for almost 9 years now.
Still would be a better movie than the 2019 film.
@@sydnamon5986 if that wasn't Atlanta that would be kinda cool. If you've looked into Jim crow history or the lost cause idea, you should know why emphasizing Sherman's March is... maybe not good? (Read: literally southern propaganda about how the vengeful north arbitrarily decided to utterly destroy the south while in reality it's a complicated event that, in all honesty, mostly isn't terribly significant outside of Atlanta itself and it's own propaganda campaign and mostly distracts from the actual horrors of slavery).
Wow. That voice actress was good. She went from sad to determined to resolute in three words, "Quick. Clean. Final."
Whach her "does thanos love gamora" video if you liked it. It's her best work as far as i've seen (not that much tbh so can't speak for the whole channel) and it's great on itself
It’s both efficient and impactful.
The voice actors really elevate your videos. I mean they are already pretty good but the VA just brings it to another level.
Watch this instead of the Dark Phoenix movie, it’ll be far better investment of your time and morale.
I don't think there will ever be an adequate or even great live action adaptation of this famous comics story. You need to have a production company, director, producer, and crew that actually cares about the material in order to deliver a great story, and most importantly with the proper setup and build up!
@@LordMalice6d9 I mean they could be a great adaptation when the X-Men return back to Marvel.
RKVC thought that would say “time and money” lol
@@LordMalice6d9
MCU dude.
@@themadtitan7603 I doubt it would be any closer than _Inifinty Gauntlet_ is to _Infinity War._ Broad strokes, sure, but beyond 'Long time character gets god-like power, is consumed by same, feels sorry during moment of clarity, written out'?
Ok, yeah, they'd probably hew a little closer to the comic. But on the other hand, with two strikes, they're unlikely to be too eager to dive back into that meat grinder.
Thanks for the warning
BUT WHY IS NOBODY STOPPING OSCAR ISAAC!?
Oscar died?
Exactly
Jean grey/Phoenix has been my favorite character of all time for almost 25 years. I’ve seen many UA-cam videos about her and the Phoenix saga, but this one was probably my favorite and most unique, so good job, very impressive
*Discussions of suicide*
Well that's one way to start a video, Scott!
So Random either I’m deaf or I don’t think he mentioned suicide once
@@mystery8064 Possibly both times Jean at least sorta died in the storyline.
@@mystery8064 She committed suicide by Shiar. She said she felt she couldn't continue to live with what she had done and stepped into the firiing line to be disentegrated. So, yeah he discusses suicide as she did the equivalent of suicide by police in our world.
Matthew Whisennand ok Thanks I’m surprised I didn’t make the connection
It's at about 27 minutes and it reads more like "self-sacrifice" than suicide... The way it happens It's a lot more palatable than Banner saying that he put a bullet in his mouth and "the other guy spit it out" ... you could also read it as though Jean Grey and Phoenix are two separate entities, and Jean realized that she had to push Phoenix in the front of a proverbial moving train, but in doing so she'd be hit as well... yeah, reads as self-sacrifice
A lot of why Chlarmont's Dark Phoenix Saga was so awesome was that he took his time building it up into the awesome event it became.
I started following X-Men at #107, it had already started a few issues befor that really, and she didn't die until #137. That comes to almost 36 issues, three years.
No one attempting to redo The Phoenix Saga ever has any intention of investing three years into it. They all want the climactic pay off, but aren't willing to do anything towards building towards that climax.
I love the way Scott addresses Jim Shooter doing a good job editing the end of the Saga.
Oh boy, a new nerdsync video lets watch it.
*Discussions of suicide*
Oh
I find that warning funny, because it makes it sound like it's going to be a major part of the video and that they might delve into the detailed psychology or talk about multiple event, when really there's just one mention of it in the video at about 27 minutes... and really you could also factor in that it has "self-sacrificial" elements.
I almost didn’t recognize La’Ron. Almost.
Hopefully, if the MCU ever does Dark Phoenix, it won’t be for like 25 years, they build up to it properly, and they give it the respect it deserves.
The best way would be have jean gray introduced as normal. Have her become phoniex. Show her become dark phoniex. Than have a movie show how dangerous dark phoniex can do. This would take at least 4 movies.
The modern MCU does not deserve to adapt the story because they would ruin it and should keep their greedy, grubby hands off of it. They are becoming another feminist ideology, militant marxist peddling company like most of the others.
@@LordMalice6d9 yeah sure
Would make for a nice Phase 5 or 6.
@@LordMalice6d9 ahh yes, a multi-billion dollar corporation is marxist, that makes total sense
The Phoenix and Dark Phoenix stories are my favourite stories in all fiction.
i would add one point: what Mastermind does to Jean is a serious violation. in my view it’s basically a psychic rape. if you think about how people who have been abused or raped are post abuse, a darkness descends on them and innocence is lost. The rage and the destructiveness of Dark Phoenix feels very similar to the anger and hate that a rape victim or abusee feels.
maybe this would be news to Chris Claremont and John Byrne but this is why their masterpiece will never stop touching my heart.
Sarah Richardson did GREAT as Jean Grey. I felt actual tears well up. Also glad I don't have to rewatch Last Stand or go see Dark Phoenix. This was all I needed. ANOTHER great video!!
Just started watching this video and already 900% sure it’ll be better than whatever that incomprehensible dark Phoenix was
I really enjoy these video essays. As a more seasoned comic book reader, I like to find out about the stories behind the stories. And your video essays have been knocking that out of the park. Keep it up. Loving the content
15:45 Dude: "Jim Shooter SHOT DOWN my timeline". It was right on your face!
This man said "Nazi man" at the price of monetization. He has my respect.
Please hire whoever did Dave Cockrum’s quote readings for everything, ever. Also, I just want to hear a conversation between them and Ron Funches more than life itself.
The creative team behind the Dark Phoenix era of the Uncanny X-Men was amazing and one of my all-time favorites, with Chris Claremont writing, John Byrne's penciling, Terry Austin's inking and the lettering of Tom Orzechowski. Their collective storytelling was unforgettable and I remember waiting with great anticipation each month for the new issue of X-Men to hit the shelves, it was a big part of my college years.
The keep coming back to Phoenix because in more than a thousand issues of comics the film makers haven't managed to read anything else.
They're to X-Men what Zack Snyder is to DC movies.
I wonder how they would handle a movie on x cutioners song
Their idea of background research is looking for the most popular trade paperback of the franchise on Amazon
Wow. You smashed this one, Scott. Fantastic work!
I enjoyed the X-Men series (from the 1990s) more than I enjoyed the movies. It seemed to have greater depth.
GizmoFromPizmo That, X-Men Evolution, and the Wolverine and The X-Men cartoon from 2009 are much deeper than the movies, and were clearly made by people who had read the comics
Last Stand is definitely the "for better" now. Just like how everyone was complaining about Fantastic Four until Fant4stic came out.
I loved your enthusiasm. The Phoenix Saga is what made me fall in love with comic books. I was reading my brothers and lamenting the money he was wasting... but the Uncanny X-Men, and Jean's story caught me by the.. uh, imagination.. and didn't let go. And when Jean died on the moon, I actually teared up. I couldn't believe it.
But, I REALLY wish they'd let it go now. It was a once in a lifetime event and you can't go back.
Also. Kudos to the voice actress for Jean.
I absolutely love your high quality comic themed video essays! Some of my favorites in all video essays :D
I was going to make a joke about you being a long time viewer if you watched this channel before Scott lost his hair. But then I got interested and I looked through a bunch of videos to find the first appearance of bald Scott and the weird thing is that it almost mirrors the story of the Phoenix.
In the video "How MARVEL Ruined WONDER WOMAN! - Weird Comic Book History Explained || NerdSync" we see hairy Scott for the last time then he's gone. What I mean with gone is that in the following videos we either don't see Scott or the episodes are hosted by guest hosts. But amongst the red colors of a daredevil beanie (the red beanie is symbolism for fire) Scott returns in the video named "Theory: Emoji are the Modern Comic Book? 🤔💭 || NerdSync" and when the fire/beanie is gone we get to see Jean Grays new costume and also Scotts new appearance, his bald head. This happens in the video named "This one Thor comic reveals Jack Kirby's hidden genius (Marvel history) || NerdSync". I don't know if this was intentional, I would bet it wasn't but the story of Scott's hair loss still plays out just like one of the most influential comic stories.
Note I did not count live streams such as "SPIDER-MAN: Homecoming is... a typical Marvel movie (Spoiler Review) || NerdSync" as episodes. Nor did I count "Legend of the Bright Knight: History of the Adam West Batman TV Show 👊💥 || NerdSync" as I considered it to be a special tribute episode to Adam West, and we see bald Scott in the video "Why Fans Destroyed SUPERMAN's First Comic Book... on Purpose (DC Comics History) || NerdSync" in clips from a collab on another channel. But even taking this into consideration it still works. But since these are not real episodes they are not canon.
Fantastic video, as always!
Though, I have to say - it's odd that there was no discussion about the fact that it was Jim Shooter, famous "hater of strong female characters", who forced the writers to kill off the strongest female character of the franchise. I mean, I get the importance of consequences, and the meaningful exploration of the concept of power through the Phoenix saga, and yeah, Shooter had some good points... But it's also notable that such a story was explored through a female character, while similarly-powerful male characters like Thor & the silver surfer were allowed to keep their power without dying. The gender-politics of this story are interesting... And kinda iffy. Kinda like Daenerys Targaryen's story in the final season of Game of Thrones.
eh? I think this was an interesting fictional interpretation. I do not know if Shooter is a "hater of strong women", though I tend to doubt it considering the characters he has written and the fact under his stewardship, he had some of the best female editors who have ever worked at marvel. BUT the reason he forced Phoenix to die, was because Byrne depicted her killing an entire planet of people. Now I do not agree withg his decision but since I am sure Thor had never committed a mass genocide of such a scale (though I think the way they excuse Silver Surfer is semantics).
Yes, Thor and Silver Surfer may have never committed mass genocide quite like that - and the question is WHY that is. After all, Phoenix's destruction of the planet was framed as an inevitable consequence of her power-level - "absolute power corrupts absolutely." People can't be so powerful without becoming corrupted. That's the philosophical premise of the entire story.
And yeah, once she destroyed that planet, her fate was kind of sealed (though there's some grey area there, due to the fact that she was mind-controlled, and therefore kinda-sorta innocent. And there's room to question why she couldn't be redeemed, like so many other heroes who did terrible things...).
The question is - why wasn't Thor corrupted by his absolute power? Why wasn't Silver Surfer corrupted by his power? If absolute power corrupts absolutely, then why don't over-powered male heroes go down this path of corruption as often as over-powered female heroes do? I think there's a double standard here, which deserves to be explored.
Great video. Well worth all the hard work you put in Scott!
I'm so glad you did the quick reaction snippit at the end, would love to see a full rant detailing the biggest flaws!
Man, I absolutely love the way you tell about your side of the experience of the stories we shared as readers. Please, keep the good work coming!
The X-Men reprints were selling well in the UK. I read that in some history of comics volume years ago. That was the reason for relaunch.
Halfway through the video, and this is some amazing content!
Wolverine is Canadian, he would say chesterfield not davenport.
Right!?! I don’t even know what a Davenport is, but It’s obvious what a chesterfield is.
.... Yeah, I'm still lost.
As I 16 year old I can confidently say that I don't know what either of those things are.
@@RickReasonnz a couch/sofa
@@MrInconvenient they're couches.... had to look it up lol
Another great video Scott. Thanks for the little clip of you coming out of the theater, I was wondering what you thought of the film.
man i love goin thru the backlog for this channel, banger after banger
Probably one of your best videos Scott!!! And that says a lot, considering all your videos are great! This was amazing!!! 👊👊👊
Every video you make are worth the wait.
I appreciate the thought and effort put in each video.
Yes Scott. Worth the wait as always
"Dark Phoenix" is basically "Carrie" but with X-Men.
TREMENDOUS job on this, Scott. That was awesome.
I was reading X-Men comics when all this went down. The Phoenix Saga had a tremendous emotional impact on teenage me (and lots of us, obviously, or we wouldn't still be talking about it). You brought many of those feelings back (FAR better than either Phoenix movie did), and for that, I thank you.
PS I met Jim Shooter at a convention in Atlanta in 1986. He was a complete tool.
@Kingdrago101 Mostly, he treated Claremont and company like his personal servants and came off like a total douchebag. Plus, I walked in on him in a public restroom making growling noises and doing superhero poses in front of the mirror. 😆
Scott, this was so incredibly informative but so so very entertaining, too - I was laughing so much of the time, clapping at moments, and generally enjoying it. Much as I never cared too much for X-Men outside of the animated series, it's amazing hearing the history of this iconic saga and I empathize with your wariness over the new Dark Phoenix film. Too bad you weren't able to enjoy it. Oh, and so glad you got that expert explanation of an editor.
"Oh, you liked this video about a team of superhero and their comic book? Well, here's some videos on Phoenix, Arizona!" Go home, UA-cam, you're drunk.
Glad your keeping up with the content. Great vid!
Your videos keep getting better and better. It is so great to witness this grow from its early days. Damn it, you had to mention the X-Men theme song video. Now its stuck in my head.... and it's going to last about a week.
Another great video scott, appreciate all of your hard work.
I love your videos! There's so much passion in all of them. Thank you for doing them.
This video should be called Xmen and the menace of Trouble-Shooter
Well I think Shooter was mainly just at fault for helping get her killed off, which to be fair, according to the video wasn’t his idea to begin with.
That Thor/Silver Surfer/Firelord stuff was either misremembered by Cockrum or just simply made up as Jim wasn’t Editor in chief at the time.
@@robertt9342 the reason I called him Trouble-Shooter is because of the section of the Untold History of Marvel Comics titled "Trouble-Shooter"
Tbh I agree with his choice to kill Jean and it shows his morality as a writer. I have nothing against the man personally except for the New World comics which were grabage lmao
Hey, great video! You're easily one of my favorite youtubers, so keep up the good work!
The background about the history of the x-men's public appeal adds interesting context to one of the following issues to dark phoenix (i think the next issue) which is basically a full recap up til that point from Cyclops's perspective at Jean's funeral. I bet they included it to catch up fans who had only become interested after the restart of the series with all the new characters
Great video btw
Scott, this video is fantastic! I was thoroughly engaged all the way through, and I just love your personality as well. I can feel the joy and passion you have for the source material every second you're onscreen. This story arc truly is great, it's wonderfully creative, dramatic, and epic. I'd definitely like Marvel Studios to take a crack at it, adapting the story faithfully should barely feel like a retread of what viewers have seen, as there's so much more to the story compared to the adaptations of before. Watching the 90's cartoon adaptation, I remember part of what made the story so exciting, is the complex and multiple dynamics occurring throughout the story. There was a lot more to it than simply power-mad Jean. Not saying that's a bad concept, it's just that the Phoenix saga is an epic, and this seems to be an integral part of what makes it iconic. It actually gets me excited just thinking about Marvel adapting it.
Though I've never read the comic, I interestingly have vivid memories of understanding how big a deal the Phoenix saga is from a young age, as I always remembered how the 90's cartoon advertised that the Phoenix saga was coming at the end of its own episode, a few episodes before it even began. That really stayed with me, I hadn't seen something like that before, ads for TV shows' new episodes were only done during the commercials.
I often avoid 30+min videos on UA-cam, but Scott I love your videos! It's like I'm watching a documentary. Keep it up guys! Amazing content
Dude. How have I just now found this channel?! I live here now.
I can never emphasize enough how good the production is on these videos
Hi Scott, I just Wanna say you're videos are great. They always succeed at making me laugh whenever I'm having A bad day...keep doing what you do man.
Scott you are in my opinion one of the best people on this platform covering comic books. Keep up the great work!
Scott, keep being awesome! Love your work!
Hey Scott, I love your videos! I'm about 16 and you kinda inspired me to get into comic books two years ago, and now, I'm writing my own stories, kinda. Thanks for your amazing videos, and I would love any suggestions, as I just finished reading the new Shazam, and I'm desperate for something new. Thank you!
Not to sound cliché but same!
“About” 16? “Kinda” inspired you?
All I can say is wow. Truly excellent video full of history and background and the voices used for the characters are pretty good. Its a very moving story and very well done and one of my favorites. Thank you for a great video.
Your channel is seriouly critically underrated. Big props
I LOVE the more long form video essay format
Scott, this is phenomenal. You have no idea. My favourite video by you, an absolute masterpiece.
Good lord, you keep getting amazing people to read out comic panels. I've got something in my eyes (it's tears)
Please make more of your videos, I have been watching your videos from the start. I'd like to see more.
This channel deserves so much more recognition.
It's true that the original X-Men series fizzled out in 1970 but it wasn't canceled. Issues 67 to 93 (1970-75) were all reprints of earlier issues.
Hi Scott, I really loved this video. You have a gift for story-telling, and the videos where you did deep dives and research -this one included- have all been my favorite, I can't get enough of that X-Men theme song video and for that I thank you. I ignored this video for a while, even though it was recommended, because I had assumed this video was going to be yet another video that spends endless time criticizing the movie, which to be fair it kinda was, but just a little. But like 97% of the video was the good stuff. And I can live with that.
Some non-whiny fans of the franchise are just feed up with those endless criticisms that flood the internet after movies like this comes out. We get it, you don't like it! But thankfully, building a reputation as a good story-teller like you've done helps make you stand out. Again, I truly appreciate the hard-work you put into making these lengthy shows. Thanks again.
Great video, I really learned so much, never read the comic but you really brought it to life.
34:00 the thing that gets me most about the X Men movies is that we just met this new Jean Grey. We didn’t have time to get to know her. Now they’re doing this to her? What’s great about the other films is that you have time to get to know the chatacters through a series. It’s one of the things that makes the MCU great: people have literally spent years watching these movies.
That "Final" read was great. Well done voice actors!
And now I have fallen in love with your content once more! ❤❤ Always great work here :3
That was fun. I didn't know all of the story behind the scenes. I knew that Shooter insisted Phoenix died, but a lot of the rest was new to me. Thanks!
Don't let this distract you from the fact The Phoenix Force herself hooked up with Odin.
That One Guy Just another reminder comic books can be weird 😂
No, just a reminder that modern marvel is just fanfic writers. FFS, Wolverine has been a host of the Phoenix Force, and a wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet, not to mention Conan and Wolverine being the same team all in the space of two years.
"Wow, Jim Shooter makes a great point about repercussions and conseque--oh, he doesn't actually care that much, he just thinks it's a boring ending"
Always great, and amazing.. Thank you, Scott.
Really loved the whole story behind the dark phoenix saga, you did an awesome job Scott, I also noticed the opened button shirt and well you looked great! 🙂 And that's all I will say.
I am gobsmacked and speechless that you just managed to accurately recount the Dark Phoenix Saga without once ever mentioning the Hellfire Club. That is *amazing.*
Right?? Like... half of the whole story is missing! I guess since they were already going to talk about suicide, they also didn't want to cover creepy, older men that stalk young women. Or her gradual flippancy toward the x-men's code of conduct.
Amazing video! Thanks!
I was promised on Twitter a video 40 minutes long but this video is 36 minutes and 40 seconds. I want my 3 minutes and 20 seconds of video! Thank you! Also great video! Thank you!
really great episode! :) great job! Interesting! keep up the good work! stay running!
Oh man. Dramatic readings of comic book panels is now my favorite thing.
Check out comicstorian if you haven't already.
good as always
"Well I haaaaated that..." PERFECT coda to this video :)
That line made me laugh laugh SO hard
Jesus christ Scott. Your videos are a master piece.
And the voice actor for Jean really made me misty eyed.
For a story i have read / heard / seen so many times, the fact that it can still tug at my heart strings says a lot.
Great video!!!
Seriously, this video is AMAZING!!!
Awesome video. Really engaging and great pacing.
Well this was dark, I wish I could think of a pun but I can't.
But you just did. Dark
Finally got around to watching this. A fantastic video about my favourite series of comics and one of the most iconic and influential sagas in the genre. The Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas are still impacting today's Marvel even if it's in ways the original team never thought of. And I'll say it again...thank the gods for CLAREMONT, our mutant story lord and saviour!!!!
The Jean reading was totally heartbreaking.
And I apologise for the double entendre but Scott, I'm perfectly happy to suffer with you when it comes to these great videos!
Fantastic, I love these long videos
Uhh Scott's reaching Mattie Washburn levels of obsessive crazy...
Also Jubilee solo movie come at me
You killed it on this video, but I also gotta say I lost it at "Space lab in space" sick sample
Great Job Scott !!
Man, this is one of your best videos I've watched from you. I really, wanna check this run out! And normally I cant stand "classic" comic book sensibilities.
Another absolutely amazing video
Watching your videos always makes me feel smart...
My favourite episode of comic misconceptions
Beautiful synopsis, and a wonderful indictment of how too much control from above can lead creative storytelling. The wonderful part of TDF saga is no one person could of created it. It took all those people and those circumstances to do it. It was a great story told by many people, Just compare it GoT the TV series where one creator drives and you absolutely miss his vision when he's not there.. And if you can't draw parallels Dany=Jean. Y'know I never made that parallel before, , gonna have to look at that some more.