Well There's Your Problem | Episode 12: Hillsborough Disaster
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- Опубліковано 13 січ 2020
- A bunch of nerds told us not to talk about sports, so we ignored them! Today @aliceavizandum, @oldmananders0n, and @donoteat1 talk about the worst disaster in the history of British football Justice for the 96, you'll never walk alone
listen to trashfuture: trashfuturepodcast.podbean.com/
Here's the Patreon link so you can watch the Groverhaus episode: / wtyppod
don't buy the sun
Billy Bragg said as much ❤
I think you mean "the s*n"
Without context, this comment is hilarious.
Total eclipse of the s*n -not welcome here
Im Puerto Rican, and even I know The Sun is horrible
"fellas is it gay to save someone's life?" - Donoteat 2020
its got to be about the gayest thing possible. I mean if someone saved my life I would be ecstatically happy.
"Some fans urinated on the *brave* cops". So there was no actual pissing. Got it.
No one did anything wrong in this tragic event it was the fault of the authorities South Yorkshire police not all but the ones higher up in the force David Duckenfield he gave the ill fated order to open the exit gates and didn't adequately spread the fans out but lead the fans to a tunnel they left open which lead to the crush in the pens instead of closing the tunnel once at capacity for that section of the stand so the fans flocked there
Which lead to the crush
What made it worse was the police thought that instead of people that were dying in those pens they thought with a door opening to the pitch they thought it was a pitch invasion and pushed the fans fatally back in to there deaths they didn't know the fans were dying till a while into the game
You know how you involuntary release your bowels and bladder as you're dying from being crushed? Yeah, it was that.
The bit about Football Hooliganism evolving into paramilitary organization when society starts to break down has some interesting parallels in the late classical age. During the height of the Byzantine Empire a lot of Constantinople's politics got refracted through the lens of the two major chariot racing teams, the greens and the blues. This culminated in the Nika Riots in 532, which proportionately were probably one of the most destructive riots in human history. According to the historian Procopius it almost caused the emperor to flee the city.
It should be noted that the way the emperor in question, Justinian, resolved the riots by luring the rioters into the arena, then having the army slaughter everyone. Approx. 30,000 people were killed.
The Nika riots during Justinians reign yeah,but the Empress talked him out of it,and he sent Belisarius to shut the gates and according to Procopius killed 30.000 people,probably more than half in a crush.
The blues and greens didn't recover until Heracluis some 2-3 centuries later.
Late antiquity Roman empire was pretty wild as far as politics go,also there was the Justinianic plague that coincided with the year without a summer because of a volcano eruption in Iceland,it also coincided with Justinians war to retake the western half of the empire..so yeah
@@Ulyssestnt And we thought 2020 was bad.
@@LoneWolf343 That's false. He bribed the fans of the team he supported to leave, and had the army slaughter the opposing team's fans.
@@harkonen1000000 Off the top of my head, Procopius basically says that Justinian was prepared to flee, yet his wife basically gave a fiery speech about how far they had come and how far they would fall, that she used to be a prostitute and he a minor noble, that there are no "former emperors", meaning that they would live hiding until they were caught and that she would rather die the empress than live like that. Justinian's wife was badass, shame that I forget if she was named Theodosia or if I am confusing her with another badass empress, there were quite a few.
Anyway, Justinian then sent senators to the Circus Maximus and reminded the Greens that Justinian was one of them while offering bribes and stuff. I am not sure the Greens and the others left or were tricked into continuing there. Either way Belisarius was probably the best general of his time, leading the finest army as well. When they marched in formation and started stabbing, they didn't care about what colours anyone supported.
It was bloody and together the fire, not to mention the later plague, it allowed Justinian to truly shape Constantinopolis, including building the Hagia Sophia and replacing old roman pagan era stuff like public baths, which had been destroyed in the riots. His changes would mostly last until the Venetian Crusade burned the city and after that very little was properly rebuilt until the Otomans took it and renamed it.
The thing I said I was going to mention and then forgot to is a case named Alcock v Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, where a bunch of relatives sued for damages because they had been traumatised by seeing their loved ones get killed on live TV. This led to a number of criteria for so-called 'secondary victims' of psychiatric injury, such as needing to have directly perceived the events and having a close tie of love or affection to a victim. It's very much not great law, but so far nobody has come up with anything better.
Also football ultras in the Balkan Wars
@@alicecaldwell-kelly9530 Wait please elaborate because what
Indeed. It comes up occasionally in my work. (I work in the legal sector. My specialism is in immigration and asylum, but in my current job I do a bit of everything.)
Oh shit nice. I'm a Scots law student and we recently looked into that case. Interesting stuff for sure, though very tragic.
Similar happened during the aftermath of aberfan, parents needed to prove a deep emotional connection to the children to get the compensation, absolutely disgusting behaviour,
I propose that every time Margaret Thatcher is mentioned on the podcast there needs to be a thunderclap sound bite.
Crowdsourcing thread for next week's cancel drama pinned thread. Ideas:
- A concerned mum helicopter parenting and demanding censorship of any discussion of loss of life.
- A call to ostracise Alice for failing to denounce Bernie Sanders and a demand she make a public oath to not vote for him in the Scottish primary.
- A demand that the hosts publicly acknowledge that the Indian Dipole caused the 2019 Australian Arson Incident.
- Soy.
Come on folks, let's brainstorm this and make it the best drama thread ever!
24:30 When I was younger I went with my family to a major amusement park-style place. We had brought our own food to eat, but when they checked our bags at the entrance they didn't allow us to bring the food in for "security" reasons (obviously so we would have to buy food inside). So my dad temporarily stayed behind at the entrance while the rest of us went through, and passed the sandwiches through the bars of the big front wall. Security saw us and ran up to us on the inside a minute later demanding to confiscate the sandwiches, so we ate as much as we could right there.
After spending a few hours at the park, we came back to the entrance to leave to find that they'd erected this makeshift bamboo fence across the whole length of the entrance gates/wall, so you couldn't stick your hand through the bars. It makes me laugh that they were so quick to modify the entrance to their famous tourist attraction over a sandwich.
The idea of an amusement park not allowing you to bring your own food is kind of wild to me
Gotta love the capitalism
24:30 I accidentally brought a pocket knife to an LA Kings game, but I noticed it when I was standing in line to go through security. I just tucked it under one of those decorative metal trash can holders on the promenade and sure enough it was still there when I came out.
did the same thing at a concert but i stuffed it under a bush
Margaret Thatcher
Alice: **Booooo**
Liam: **Ugh**
Thatcher the milk snatcher
Mad props to Liverpool for fucking over the Sun. Absolute masterpiece.
We still pray and wait for the death of that newspaper and the end of Rupert Murdochs sad life.
Crowd crush is what happens when you try to shake hands with danger, their brother, sister, aunt, uncle, and parents all at the same time.
At some point, the gang are going to be so depressed with covering actual disasters caused by pigs, that they're actually gonna cover Tacoma Narrows Bridge as a palette cleanser.
And then they'll end the episode still talking about next week's episode on the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
@@darthbob88 Tacoma Narrows 2: Electric Boogaloo
Giggles madly from Sep 2021
“Funny you should say that!!”
O_O that point has been reached
My mom had a family friend who was a doctor that responded to this disaster. Lifelong ptsd.
One of the causes of the disaster was an incident where some South Yorkshire cops had stripped, handcuffed and photographed a new officer in their unit as an initiation rite. As a result the commander of the division was transferred to another area. The transferred commander was the man who had run match day operations at Hillsborough for years and had successfully resolved similar situations previously.
Brian Mole erroneously took the brunt of that initiation stunt by sending him to Barnsley like 3 weeks prior to the 1989 FA Cup semifinal game, and those at the Leppings Lane Stand paid with their lives for such incompetence.
When people are flowing and the traffic suddenly stops, you can get person hammer
so if a dude is rapping some flows in his car and traffic stops, he becomes a human mjolnir (Thor's hammer)?
@@brandonhoffman4712 that would require more than just one dude to create proper Human Mjolnir
PERSON HAMMER!
Once went to a bar with a $5 coat check, so I went into an alley behind the bar and shoved my coat behind a sheet of plywood loosely bolted to a vacant building's window. I got it back after I left the bar.
You, sir, are a badass.
Is this praxis?
Me: Turns to friends and says next bar. while pointing both hands like guns towards the door. While stating on my way out there are plenty of places to play a game of billiards while enjoying a drink without coat surcharges.
I thought bars are supposed to have the little hooks under the bar.
one time i went to a concert and found out about 10 minutes in advance that they didn’t allow bags, so my friend convinced me to leave it in a bush outside the venue… by some miracle it was still there afterwards
Crowd crushes are also common in military history, usually when a routed force has to escape through a narrow chokepoint like a bridge
Deez Noots such as at the notorious battle of the Tacoma valley, which resulted in the famous bridge collapse.
they should try rerouting
Okay, thanks for the image. I had imagined a crowd crush as being a supreme horror, but the idea of a crush happening /on a bridge/, where escape means dodging both being crushed and being pushed over the edge, is just beyond beyond.
Plus, crowd surges happening on a bridge are a good way to a bridge collapse, probably even worse than soldiers marching in step over a bridge (which has caused so many military disasters that to this day soldiers are trained to break step on bridges).
@@Tindometari for example the Porto bridge disaster of 1809 where thousands of people drowned fleeing over a pontoon bridge when the bridge collapsed under the weight
I couldn't help but think of the crowd crush in 1896 that contributed greatly to the fall of the Russian Empire.
Human crushes! My favorite type of engineering disaster (aka the type I'm the most scared of). Every few months I read the wikipedia page on them and then get nervous whenever I'm in the dining hall during the lunch rush. I would absolute love to see a Hajj episode, it's a fascinating history and every time I start reading about it, it seems to get crazier and crazier
Justin wont accept my friend request on facebook.
Which is completely understandable.
ah yes, the fated tacoma narrows episode
But... Why did everyone in post-war Briton wear acid washed jeans?
Can't answer that can you? You effing communist.
i think you mean fabled :P
Maybe the real Tacoma Narrows Bridge was the friends we made along the way...
it's next week
@@OkSharkey I hope it's next week forever
There's always something eerie about hearing radio chatter from people just slightly above all the chaos during any sort of incident. Especially while watching the footage and looking at pictures it just feels horrible.
Crowds and fluid dynamics. Next we'll have a crowd hammer.
And crowd sonic boom. After this incident, it was demonstrated how crowds are conpressible, so it can happen
Holy shit i feel dirty after this one
@@do_care919 People go in one end of the de laval nozzle, and high velocity gas comes out the other.
Crowd Hammers already exist. They're called "Hongkong Police". :/
Well, a crowd above the critical density does act like a fluid mass.
Now picture a crowd bounded by unyielding barriers. Like any fluid mass, if the frequency of the crowd surges matches a natural frequency of the space, then you have resonance. At that point, "crowd hammer" becomes quite an accurate description of what happens.
As a scouser, but someone who was only 2 years old at the time I obviously only know of this disaster from secondhand accounts, but pretty much everyone knows someone who was affected. My dad used to work for Liverpool City Council and one of the lads who worked under him lost his life in this disaster, his best friend in work had no idea and my dad had to break the news to him (he thought he was still drunk and had overslept). The people of Liverpool will never forget (This is from one of the blue half). Don't buy the s*n, JFT96.
That activate windows watermark cracks me up
Horrible policing from the start. The guy in charge had never actually been in charge of policing at a football match, and didn’t even know the name of one of the teams playing (he said Nottinghamshire at the briefing and someone corrected him).
The usual police officer in charge had been forced to resign only weeks earlier, due to a scandal in the department which he didn’t have anything to do with. But as the guy in charge, he took the fall for it. Consequently, Officer Thumb Up His Ass was in charge.
He was the one who gave the order to open the outside gates to alleviate the crushing outside at the turnstiles.
Usually at Hillsborough there were attendants standing outside the tunnel to pens 3 & 4. They would normally close the tunnel once it was clear the pens were full, and direct fans coming in to go into side pens. This wasn’t done. For whatever reason there were no attendants outside the tunnel on that day. So when the outside gates were open, the fans streamed down the open tunnel through the most obvious entryway. As you say, it was a neutral ground so fans wouldn’t know there were other places to go.
One of the interior fences in the pens gave way in the first five minutes of the game, due to pressure in the overcrowded pens. The game was stopped six minutes in when fans got onto the pitch.
Officer TUHA never declared an emergency, which contributed to the chaotic emergency response. Ambulance drivers didn’t know whether to drive onto the pitch or park. Police who were close to the Liverpool end did help, as they could see what was going on. But others were ordered to form a line across the pitch, in case enraged Nottingham Forest fans tried to run across to attack Liverpool fans. This gave the impression that the police did nothing. From what I’ve read, many ordinary police did help the best they could. Again, after the game was stopped, there was chaos. Some fans who had escaped from the Liverpool end tore down advertisements to use as stretchers, to get injured to ambulances outside.
Bottom line, Officer TUHA froze in the moment. The worst thing he did was, when the head of the FA came to the police box in the stadium to ask what was going on, he said drunk and disorderly Liverpool fans had broken down the gates outside to come in, causing a crush inside. Which was a complete and utter lie, which he and senior SYP covered up for literally decades. Why he’s never been charged with manslaughter at the very least, I’ll never know.
Great comment, I had to stop this episode at the 29 minute mark because I will not listen to “people trying to access with fake /no tickets” victim blaming bs which has been debunked to death, I will finish it eventually, it’s the one I can’t watch cos 10 year old me was meant to be there but I am intrigued the rest of their take once I can manage it
I've just started listening to this podcast and enjoying it! I'm also a Sheffield local, so can explain that 'Sugg Sport' was a locally owned sporting goods store in South Yorkshire in the 80s/90s. Also visible is D.C Cooks, a car dealership, and Presto, a small supermarket chain in the area that went out of business in the 90s.
One thing that's worth noting is that inexplicably, Liverpool were allocated the smaller 'Away' end, despite having a much larger fanbase. The Leppings Lane entrace is *ridiculously* narrow. On match day the road is choked with cars and mini buses, so there's little room to move, even to this day.
My mom and I were running a marathon some years ago and a woman fell over near us and we both worked to block her from being trampled. We literally finished last but we finished and I never have regrets when I know I may have saved a life. It wasn't like we were going to win. lol
Talking about the Tacoma Narrows Bridge at the end has become as traditional as the pronoun checks
At this point when they finally give away Liam's van as a Patreon reward, there'll be an audio cassette stuck in the van's hi-fi that, when played backwards, will be the Tacoma Narrows Bridge episode.
Every time I’m in a crowd at a large public event and I see those bike-rack style crowd control barriers funneling people through the exits like cattle in a slaughterhouse, all I can think of is how deadly that would turn the minute anything that could panic the crowd occurs.
You know, like a mass shooting at a concert?
(Sorry, as an American I’ve accepted that’s just an everyday occurrence now)
A lot of those kind of barriers (If I understand what barreirs you mean)are great at dispersing the pressure and preventing crushes. Essentially, they makes sure that the force pushing you into a wall or barrier is only from a couple of hundred people at most rather than tens of thousands. Not comfortable, but very unlikely to be deadly.
The barriers that are put up to stop a crowd are also, unlike at Hillsborough, made so that if everything goes tits up, they will fail. Either by falling over, or by being relatively easy to climb or open.
The key is to never have so many people pushing from behind so the it creates a stampede. Strategically placed "wave breakers", barriers, and zones are used in modern stadiums and concerts to ensure that.
They are actually designed as choke points on purpose to screen people and to stop people from plowing cars
@@misham6547 I dunno what barriers, I imagine it's the metal grates that interlace, you are talking about but is there a barrier that can stop that? If a car is heavy and fast enough you are going to need reinforced concrete studs protuding from the ground and it might not even stop it cleanly.
If it's meant to minimize casualties through not presenting a huge blob of people, then I guess it might work but people are still going to bunch in other points. Then we get situations like in New York where police officers used the barriers to drive into people. The barriers increase the zone of contact so they just charged a SUV into the crowd and pushed people up.
@@LuizAlexPhoenix well yes, but you have to remember that a small but far too large proportion of US cops appear to be socially derranged with no consequences.
I've seen 1m concrete cubes at 1.5m spacing as vehicle barriers; wouldn't stop a truck dead but it wouldn't get far afterwards, and it'd cream a car.
Safe standing has effectively worked in Germany for a while. I can say the reason football fans want safe standing is because it'd be cheaper tickets and would create a more energetic and enjoyable fan culture, seeing the mandatory seating as promoting a flat atmosphere. The match going attendance is a lot older and wealthier than the attendance to German matches which have safe standing. FC St Pauli, an anti-hooligan, anti-fascist team in Hamburg has a lot of this standing, and people in these areas sing and jump about together a lot and have these incredible displays. But German football culture is very different to English culture, so I don't know if it would have a positive impact here.
Yeah safe standing is becoming the norm in Sweden as well, with all the major clubs having adopted it. As a life long Malmö FF supporter, it's standing or bust for me. A standing ticket is usually around 15-20 euros with a season ticket being around 100 euros, the cheapest seat is at least double that, something neither I nor my friends can affoard. Considering how integral football is in european working class culture it's no wonder that it's the cheap seats that create the atmosphere, and why the Premier Leauge has become one of the deadest leagues in Europe.
On the other end we have police tunneling football fans from the train-station all the way to the stadium.
How does safe standing work? Do they just allow fewer people into the pens or something?
@@scullystie4389 Not really(although police here in Sweden has been doing it as a punitive measure against flares), it's just railing on every step except for the "stairs" leading down. Sometimes the railing is also provided with foldable seating so you can either stand or sit(with dramatically decreased view of the game)
@@andreasstensson9288 At Banc of California Stadium (Los Angeles FC) we have safe standing. Each person has a seat assigned, but the seat itself is locked behind a metal bar. This is in addition to a bar in front of each row to ensure people don't fall or whatever. It works really well and the atmosphere is amazing
Worked in Liverpool in the 90's and we had guys coming over from the US... they all wanted to see the brit newspaper with photos of topless women in it that they'd heard about. Imagine their disappointment. fwiw when you told them no one sold it they assumed it was a Catholic/religious thing.
My pronouns are they/them/he/him
I feel very welcomed this episode
Ah yes, the great Pixel Shortages in the 70's. Dark times.
Yo if anyone has any questions about Hillsborough, hit me up. I've spent years studying it and can clarify/add detail to a lot of stuff mentioned/missed here
For example: In 2015 Duckenfield (the commanding police officer overseeing Hillsborough) admitted under oath that his serious professional failures caused the crush that killed the 96 people. The 2014 and 2016 inquests found that the 96 people were "unlawfully killed" because of Duckenfield's gross negligence, to a criminal standard of proof. Duckenfield was acquitted (found not guilty) in 2019.
It is truly one of the great mysteries of mankind, how 96 people can be "unlawfully killed" without anyone being at fault for it
Also, Hillsborough Stadium had had large crowds before, it's just that Duckenfield replaced the previous Commanding Police Officer at the last minute, and refused all offers of assistance/advice as to how they normally dealt with large crowds
The Guardian has a bunch of decent articles that I would recommend if interested
Also, the 97th victim of Hillsborough was Stephen Whittle, who was set to go to the match when a last-minute work committment forced him to give his ticket to a friend. His friend was one of the 96 who died in the crush. Whittle killed himself 22 years later, in February 2011, blaming himself for the death of his friend, and left £60,000ish ($65,000ish) to the families of the Hillsborough victims in his will. He died before the truth came out, when the blame still lay with the Liverpool fans
Also also, all three of the claims on the front page of the Scum were made up.
The thing about Urinating and Shitting on police officers was that dead people evacuate their bowels, and so it smelt like that, which was then lied about.
The thing about "picking the pockets of the dead" was people checking for IDs.
The thing about punching rescue workers was just a fucking lie, part of the attempt to blame the fans and the dead for the disaster, instead of the police
Just remembered a disaster worth covering: the Dreamworld Thunder River Rapids ride malfunction that caused the death of four. The park knew the ride had the problem but failed to act. It took until the early hours of the morning for all the bodies to be recovered.
My favorite things sports and being able to be pissed off at incompetent cops
the important problem with cops is not competence. if anything incompetence from police is usually a good thing that helps people
@@gloverelaxis agreed in everything but directing traffic
Unapologizes in 2006, well that fits in with my belief that most people, especially conservatives, give fake apologies when they’re forced to apologize for something controversial. That and that conservatives do not value the lives of other people.
I would love to see an episode on Action Park
Yaaaaaasssss
That and Verrückt would be really cool.
yaaaas
Yes I just watched Johnny Knoxville's new movie based of the park ,
I've watched the docu on it, truly some designs that will leave you aghast
I have an insulated cloak that's so fuzzy on the outside, I don't set off motion detectors unless I go out of my way to move quickly. Normal walking renders me invisible to them. That's my favorite way to avoid security.
I don't think I heard mention of the design of the pens; how all the openings to move between pens were at the back by the tunnel everyone was filtering through, and towards the pitch was a dead end.
Regarding the discussion near the 45:00 mark, 94 died on April 15, Lee Nicol was taken off life support on April 19, Tony Bland was taken off life support in 1993, and Andrew Devine died of his injuries in 2021.
I wish I could leave an angry comment just for the possibility of a smartass reply back, but you 3 genuinely make my day each video you post and are the reason my work days don't suck as bad as they could
After those Vancouver hockey riots, the common line was to blame people from Surrey, coincidentally the poorest and almost the least white suburb.
I find the idea of Surrey as being the ‘pop art of anywhere is unreal to me as a Brit.
Well made video. Hopefully can add a bit more context.
Hooliganism in the late 60's and 70's occurred almost exclusively inside football grounds. The idea being to storm the opponents 'end', behind the goal. By 1989, CCTV and Police inside football grounds had mostly moved trouble to town and city centres before, during, or after the game. It was quite rare for hooligans to go to the actual stadium, or even be interested in the result by this time.
If you were male, young, and suspected of not being from a place, the police might try to force you into the stadium rather than be left 'hanging around'. When at university in London my team played Fulham. After the match it took a lot of pleading not to be herded back onto the train or buses back to my home town!
The attitude of the Police therefore was to get the fans, who they saw as cattle, into the stadium as quickly as possible, and 'safely' shut up behind walls and fences which lined the pitch. The fences still being there from the time when fans charged each other inside the stadium, which hadn't happened in years on any big scale domestically.
The game was an FA Cup semi final, which were played at neutral stadiums, until the building of the new Wembley Stadium went so far over budget that they had to claw back money and play the semis there as well as the final.
Liverpool were nearly at the end of their best era and were massive, Forrest were a smaller club, had had success too, but had fewer fans there on the day. You mentioned the direction the fans were coming from, and this meant that Liverpool were given the smaller away end, and Forrest the big home terrace. It was deemed too dangerous for fans to crossover and have the sensible sides of the ground that their fan base would normally dictate.
The Government could never distinguish between fans and hooligans, and fully supported the typical disgusting coverup that often occurs when official bodies Eff up, but try to hide it.
The Sun remains The Sun. I wouldn't wipe your arse with it.
This show means a lot to me.
Thank you to all and I hope you are safe.
PS
"Yes!"
- Justin
love you comrade
One thing I feel it is important to point out is that the gate to the tunnel could have been closed (or police horses could have been positioned to funnel people away) but due to duckenfield's incompetence this order was never given.
I personally find crowd control disasters to be very interesting so I'm just going to put my vote in for more of those in future eps!
... And he initially lied about opening Gate C to relieve the turnstile crushing by saying Liverpool fans broke it down. This, along with not closing the tunnel doors to Pens 3 and 4, exacerbated the tragedy. His lack of preparedness, or abilities, or both, as a PCS were fatal.
Speaking of people dying from the hajj, the last smallpox outbreak in Europe was in Yugoslavia in 1972 when a pilgrim contracted it and brought it back home to Kosovo. The epidemic infected 175 people, killing 35.
Comedian Alexei Sayle did a documentary about Liverpool recently. As an experiment he got a newsagent to try giving out free copies of The Sun to anyone who walked in and hardly anyone took it. Runs deep
if you are looking for a "humorous" engineering disaster, you should check out the 1919 boston molasses flood. if you want to get a good source, dark tide by stephen puleo is a great place to start. a flood of molasses seems crazy as hell, but it is (as usual) due to (spoilers) capitalism. please check it out sometime!
oooh great idea
I read the title and was immediately all like "don't buy the sun" and "fuck the police" and "acab". Fucking hell, Hillsborough really triggers me.
Duckenfield hasn't even taken a field trip at the place he was in control of that day, nore had he looked at the safty rules of the place. It took him over a decade to correct his original statement that fans had opened the gates to the statement that he has ordered it and failed to order to close the tunnel, because he didn't know of the anatomy of the place. That cover up alone is enough criminal energy for a guilty vote to me. It's a shame to this day. What is really sad is that, when you look at the footage from tv, there was NO hooliganism going on that day. NONE! And the place had near fatal crushes before in pen 3&4, with broken bones and stuff. So, the problem was not unknow.... RIP the 97! You'll never walk alone!
I'm a drunkard sometimes and the worst drunkard was probably among the seriously-injured or dead. Your regular drunk probably saved a lot of lives that day. I know I have done that.
One day, I was out playing the guitar on the street and I ran across two of my friends, both of whom were drunker than I was (and I was immensely drunk), and one of whom was too drunk and needed to drink some water and eat. So I organized those of us who were falling over drunk into carrying our drunken comrade between us to a place to get food and water.
We got about 10 feet (roughly 3 meters) past the entrance to a couple of the bars when someone yelled, "Gun!"
I was probably as drunk as the guy we were supporting in the middle and I've never ever been in an active shooter incident before, but I think that autism might shield me to a greater degree than normal from some of the mental effects of alcohol (although I will say that I'm sitting here with broken eyeglasses because, in part, I was drunk and then there's menopause or something and depression and the fact that I had a large bottle of unopened gin in my bike bag and then there was this shitty car driver that made me realize that I had to jump up the curb but the backend of my bike was heavy so... yeah... broke my glasses while drunk).
In any case, both of these guys didn't even process what was going on so I yanked both of them behind a pillar. Maybe part of why I succeeding in riding my bike home drunk is that I have a 3D thing in my head of the places I've been, especially if it's somewhere I go regularly. I was lucky those two guys where about my height and that they were probably thinner than I was at the time. So I had to look around the edge of the closest pillar and, if it was clear, drag these couple of dudes back to getting behind the next pillar.
It was about closing time for the bars too and so there were all kinds of people trying to go to their cars and they would have had to go right by the area where the person had the gun. I mean, I had worked on an ambulance before this and as a firefighter and it is true that the first lesson is scene safety but people are sometimes lax when it comes to actual safety as any other place where low likelihood/high casualty events are basically ignored. So I had just about enough training to take charge of this shit as a shitfaced drunk myself and I literally convinced like 50+ people to head for the restaurant where I had been headed with my friends because I knew it had a solid brick wall between it and the direction of the gun manure (notice that manure is literally bull shit lmao).
I didn't actually save any lives because that role lay to the people this person with a gun first confronted, one of whom is a friend of mine too and the others were off-duty police officers. Not a single shot was fired thankfully but this person did have an AR-15 and I would have saved some lives if shots had been fired.
The next time there was a guy with a gun, he did shoot but I didn't find out until after it was over that he had only shot into the air. It was just this past Valentine's Day. I went out to play because I knew there'd be a lot of people out but I abhor Valentine's Day because I really don't need a fucking holiday to remind me of what a failure I am in close relationships but it's been a while since I was dumped on that shit day, even though it happened to me twice. Doesn't matter what fucking day it is when you realize that other people don't give a fuck and it still hurts even though I realize that freedom is letting yourself be you and remembering that other people's opinions are just, like, their opinions and "I'm the one who's going to have to die when it's time for me to die," as Jimmi Hendrix said.
Anyway, I went out on this shit "holiday" and then this person shot a gun in the air and he was only a little ways from the little spot where I sometimes sit to play. I knew it was a gun and I knew it was close but I only found out how close it was when I actually decided it was safe to leave that spot. During that one, I made peace with life and only asked God or the universe or whatever that, should I be shot, that I die instead of getting a more broken body than the one I already have and that, no matter what, I be able to keep my wife (hahaha, which is to say my guitar).
All of this happened when I was extremely drunk because I'm embarrassed to play music when there's a greater than zero chance that someone will hear me.
one of the weirdly wonderful things about this podcast is that it's such a bizarre mix of religions, political affiliations and gender, such that you'd picture some caricature of people playing Dungeons & Dragons, except instead of spending 2 hours haggling over a saving throw, they are discussing stress calculations in bridge design.
(I don't doubt that this bunch does actually play AD&D and haggle over saving throws.)
Resident Houstonian here, revisiting this after the travis scott concert and i hope we can come together to do fucking better than this
6:04 the "peace be with you" at catholic mass version of "Shake hands with danger"
On the subject of "shit we've gotten away with" for evading security, my fiancee is a fan of The Artist Formerly Known As Prince, and on her keychain is a quite sizeable Prince logo made of steel (we have had actual conversations on how if she ever needed to defend herself she could just shank someone with the thing).
We were stopped at security at Miller Field in Milwaukee, and after looking at it for a minute the security guard allowed us to bring it into the park, explicitly stating that the _only reason_ he was allowing it was because it was a piece of Prince bling!
"Fun" fact David Duckenfield had never managed a football match prior to this and was put in charge of the biggest game of the year with one weeks notice. Which at least partially explains the gross incompetence of the police.
Philly sports is the obviously the American equivalent of football Hooliganism
Not even remotely true. "Philly sports fans are bad" is a self-perpetuating myth because any story about philly sports fans is amplified because of the stigma. The truth is that the level of bad stuff that happens in Philly sports also happens in other cities, and worse. There was a report on fan transgressions at NFL games a couple of years ago, and Philadelphia wasn't particularly close to the top. The teams with the most arrests were Chargers, Giants, Jets, Raiders and Steelers.
www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/a-quietly-escalating-issue-for-nfl-fan-violence-and-how-to-contain-it/2016/10/28/4ec37964-9470-11e6-bb29-bf2701dbe0a3_story.html
As an avid NHL fan there is of course the infamous Bracelet game that got trumped up by a lot of websites about how bad Flyers fans are, but that is ridiculously miniscule when considering other events like the riots in Vancouver in 2011 or in Montreal in 2008. Philly sports fans get a bad rep because they have a bad rep, not because they are particularly worse than sports fans in other cities.
I am surpridrd though nothing happened at the Superbowl parade.
As a 5'2 person my nose never stopped touching someone's back the entire time. Never seen so many people in one place in my life
Even that's falling way short. Those european hooligans are NUTS.
Never buy the sun
In Germany, since Hillsborough we don't have gates in the fences anymore, because all the fences are gates and they open automaticly when a certain amount of pressure is applied. They get tested before every season. And by the way, the real soccer fan IS standing during the game. Singing, jumping with his buddies around him. That's the way it is since soccer was invented. That's why english fans come over to Germany to see matches on the stand.
OTOH you _don't_ feel in danger of death if you're on a train with (most) German football fans after a match. Not so much for the UK.
I was on trains with UK fans in the UK and I wasn't in fear of death... @@williamchamberlain2263
Do people outside of Boston know about the molasses flood? As far as engineering disasters go 21 people drowning in a molasses tsunami might be as fun as it gets.
I think this was a bonus episode
Should be tempting, as it involves an elevated railway; but then again, Boston's whole current transportation issues could produce several episodes.
Also known as the Boston Molassacre
I live in Texas, and I heard about it. Might have even been in a textbook in HS.
I’m starting to suspect that the next episode wont be the Tacoma Narrows Bridge Disaster....
That's just right-wing propaganda
Naw, it’s totally gonna happen
@ 30:43 The bottom right-hand corner of Pen 3 is where most of the fatalities occurred. Around 5 minutes into the match a shot by Liverpool's Peter Beardsley hit the crossbar at the opposite end of the pitch. Crush barriers are there to distribute the forward load of supporters, unfortunately there was a gap on the diagonal from the tunnel to that bottom corner, which meant that crush barriers nearer the front were taking a far greater load than they were designed to hold. When the ball hit the bar, fans moved forward in anticipation, a barrier snapped transferring the load onto the fans who fell forward and were crushed by fans from behind falling on top them.
One half-second clip in the BBC's coverage reveals a pile of bodies about 5 deep, they had no chance. I was a football fan who experienced grounds before they became all-seater, we were treated like prisoners on transfer.
Some wikipedia article (might have been on Hillsborough, might have been on crushes in general), when I first learned about this explained human crushes in the most terrifying way possible. It's when you get enough people together in a confined space that collectively they start acting like liquid molecules. A collection of descrete solids acting like water molecules can most commonly be seen it videos that use things like marbles to explain the concept of liquid as a state of matter to young children. Physics takes over and things start bumping into eachother and rolling over each other.
Seeing all of this stadium stuff reminds me of something. You guys could do an episode on the Bradford City Stadium fire.
Let them do that bridge thing first
yaas
I love the podcast, but I really wish y'all wouldnt linger on horrific/graphic images (like the one of those poor people pressed against the fence) for quite so long, makes it difficult to watch
Understandable, but at the same time I think it's important to get a sense of how brutal and visceral something is in a way you might not get from the audio alone. That said, I'm sorry it upset you. We'll discuss CWs or something in the future.
@@Lmndrsn yeah that's something we'll decide on before we do the next really grim one
Liam Anderson you’re a mensch.
i legit kinda teared up at that slide and then again reading this whole response/exchange. collectivist dog beat me to my response and said it better.
Crowd crush deaths are mostly, barring stuff like smoke inhalation or being shot at or whatever, caused by asphyxiation. The mechanism is neat though. what happens is when the people at the front stop moving and the people in the back don’t, the people in between get squished so densely together that they will be unable to expand their chest cavity as it will be pressed so tightly into an adjacent persons body that they can’t inflate their lumgs with air.
Iirc, if you find yourself in a crowd crush unable to escape, your best bet is to cross your forearms over your chest so that it creates some space between your chest and arms and gives you room to breathe. You’ll need to recognize what’s happening and act fast though, obviously once you’re too tight to breathe it’s too late. But also don’t lose your balance and fall or you’ll be asphyxiated by the 20 people pushed into standing on top of your body. Kind of like a stampede but by people that are mostly stationary. So be aware of the conditions that cause it, large, very dense crowds moving towards a barrier or a choke point especially ones that are trying to get away from something else scary.
“Neat” is an interesting way to put it.
@@L_Martin thankfully Alice did the incantation to make us muslamic so I can go on the Hajj next year. Very excited.
The Heysel Disaster, the crowd was trying to avoid "ultra" fans who were tossing pieces of concrete at each other due to a crumbling stadium. Add insult to injury, a concrete wall collapsed. Final death toll 34.
Long-time watcher. I love the podcast. As someone with 0 experience in podcasts, let me offer you a few pointerinos to help you along, things I just now noticed in this one episode:
- Stay more on topic! People don't want you veering off into fun anecdotes. This is a SERIOUS engineering podcast! Nobody likes comedy.
- Stop bashing capitalism and cops so much. Don't you know you're recording on equipment made by cops? Serious hypocrisy there /-:
- Don't do the pronoun stuff. It was really silly and awkward to introduce that in this episode, when you've never done it before.
- Praise Elon Musk more often. His ultragenius ideas are going to save the world from the efficiencies of public transportation.
Hope this helps! (-:
(/s, in case it needs to be said)
the /s does need to be said because ppl are still unironically saying shit like this lmfao
this still gave me high blood pressure
pointerinos
They should also talk about the Tacoma Narrows bridge
You guys should do an episode on Memorial Stadium in Baltimore. That place had all kinds of kooky shit going on, as well as it's own unique crush event involving an escalator.
Jackson Duruy I just looked it up 😱. Wasn’t expecting a child meat grinder
@@kristenmaus5933 an escalator can never break, it can only become a child meat grinder
Child Meat Grinder sounds like a fitting sequel to last week's episode. Also trash metal band name.
Here's my "escalator and kids don't mix" stories. I worked in a library with 4 public floors, 3 floors that had escalators. One night a kid is playing with the black rubber part that goes into the metal structure. Kid's hand gets in hole. Kid doesn't lose hand. Ambulance is called. Kid's parents are on another floor, drinking vodka or everclear or sniffing clear liquid from a plastic water bottle. Kid is ok, some librarians take him to the "employees only" area. One librarian gives him a Sprite. Now if his parents didn't want him to have a soda, they could just say, "hey, don't give my kid a soda!" Instead, I think they are shit parents. The dad drinks the soda offered to the kid. He's smiling as he does this. Kid is not taken to hospital because the parents don't want to go. But the kid is fine, nothing missing, no skin off his hand.
I once arrived at Southampton Airport and realised I had a pot of medical ointment in my bag over the fluid limit. Long story short I stashed it in a hedge between the train station and arrivals, lo and behold when I came back 4 days later it was still there.
Can't wait for when the podcast acheives perfect 50/50 pronoun-to-problem ratio 🏳️🌈
episode 4?
I was not expecting this to be the disaster that really got to me. I haven't listened to the Grenfell Tower episode yet, which is the one I expected to find really upsetting. Everything about this, aside from the community response, is absolutely infuriating and tragic.
Using an unactivated copy of windows is praxis
Best thing I ever got past security was at the 2005 Download festival. I was being searched on the way into the campsite and they asked if I had anything they should know about and I told them I had a knife and fork. Lucky for me that they didn't think to have a look at the knife in question as it wasn't a regular eating yer dinner knife.
I’d watch a Hajj disasters bonus episode
Hey guys
My "Activate Windows" watermark is overlapping your "Activate Windows" watermark and it's extremely distracting.
What I'm saying is that one of us is gonna have to fix it, AND IT AIN'T GONNA BE ME.
In all the time I spent in the fire department, I never got any disrespect from the public or even from cops (which was incredibly surprising to me at first and then I realized that it was my uniform and the vehicle in which I had arrived at the scene). At least in the medical side of things, you get more shit from within (usually the bosses who never go out to the scene) than you do from anyone else.
"The Crash at Crush" is the coolest name for a completely avoidable disaster.
human crushes make my skin crawl. something about them is just extra disturbing to me
I feel like The Station nightclub fire might be a good topic for you folks to cover
Yes, there is a video from inside done by the local tv channel on UA-cam as well as a computer simulation. Firehouse magazine had an excellent article as well.
"End of life hack" lol'. Guess it had to land somewhere.
yup
15:35 @donoteat1: "Of course, we're talking about the 1980s, and a lot of it is just racism".
2021 England fans: "Hold my beer".
Sticking to sports, Well theres your problem, a bioengineering podcast.
East German olympic team episode when?
i have a crowd crush on the entire global proletariat
underrated comment of the month
11:13 hmm ... maybe they could put a light rail line next to the pillars so people can throw stones out the window as they pass by?
Sheffield shouldn’t only be known for the tragedy of hillsborough, we have two more to go at
I once went with a group to the Museum of the American Indian
in DC. I forgot I had my multi-tool knife with me and it got caught by security. Turns out they had no problem with the knife part, but I couldn't bring it in because of the corkscrew tool on it?? I just left it in a bush by the entrance and got it back later.
Who else came back here after the Heysel Stadium episode ?
"fellas is it gay to save someone's life?"
lololol
well there's your pilgrimage
One of my earliest childhood memories was of seeing this on the news. Images of dead bodies, still, hanging on a fence. Horrifying.
we got similar taste lol
(She/her)
(She/her)
This podcast is quickly becoming That Podcast that I immediately bump to first in my playlist when new episodes release. It's surprising how enjoyable you all make these tales of horrific death and injury! 10/10
Speaking of Chicago, you can't forget how good we are at hooliganism. Disco Demolition anyone?
Hooliganism and thinly veiled racism at the same time.
And I watched it live. Thank you, Mr. Veeck!
@@Cynon "thinly veiled"
@@plushifoxed less veiled the more you know about where Comiskey is and why it was built there, and built over... and that's before we get into the irrational hate directed at disco (tl;dr, black and LGBTQIA+ people were good at it)
Liam's endorsment is 100% the reason LSU won.
There's no such thing as a pixel on a black&white TV: they have scan lines. The idea of a "pixel" is also questionable since colour TV (CRT) also used scan lines but had screen masks which broke up the picture, but they're not really like the exactness that monitors have. See the "Technology Connections" channel for more than you probably need to know about television history and technology.
Multiple WTYP in a week? Spoil me
>Victoria 2 twitch streaming
You had my attention, but now you have my interest.
Oh boy, I'm really looking forward to the Tacoma Narrows episode.