Allegiant A319 has RIGHT ENGINE FIRE INDICATION | Emergency Return to Sanford
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- 04/NOV/2021
Allegiant A319 performing flight from Sanford to Traverse City was on the initial climb when the piltos reported having an engine ire indication and would need to return.
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I came for the engine fire.....I stayed to find 050. Props to ATC and the Allegiant crew.
050 time to get lost
Some say that N34042 is still turning to 050 to this day
Yeah. ATC could have just told him "Left turn 90 degrees." But that might have meant math.
Nah, I don’t believe he ever made it onto 050.
N34042, FLY TOWARDS THE BEACH, YOU KNOW WHERE THE SUN COMES UP.
I think he had a spare compass in his pocket. When all else fails do something simple.
It looked like as if it would be short before becoming a second emergency plane.
Legend has it N32042 is still flying heading 050.
Yeah. ATC could have just told him "Left turn 90 degrees." But that might have meant math.
Radar sim showed him tracking closer to 120
Some basic ATC mistakes in this video. First of all, the controller should leave the pilots alone. Don’t heckle them with silly questions that can be answered later. Follow the ASSIST acronym. ATC should have this ASSIST checklist permanently glued to the desk. Second is to send other traffic away and prioritize the emergency. That 042 aircraft had no business at SFB. Just deny entry clearance. Third, if a plane is instructed 050 and he is not flying it eventhough the pilot insist he is on a 050 heading, help him in another way, for example, turn left 90 degrees or give him instruction when to start a standard left turn and stop the turn.
I found this rather poor controllership, lessons can be learned here....
ASSIST
Acknowledge the call; get the squawk
Separate the aircraft from other traffic. Give it room to manoeuvre
Silence - on the frequency. Provide separate frequency where possible - this prevents unnecessary clutter for the pilots
Inform those who need to know and those who can help; inform others as appropriate
Support the pilots in any way possible - Start to think of alternative routings, etc.
Time - Give the pilots time to collect their thoughts, don’t harass them for information. Time produces good decisions
Thank you very much for pointing that out!
well said
The pilot had to tell the controller 3 times that he would get back to him. Couldn’t the controller notice that he was busy?
Yeah, I was beginning to think the pilot should just not respond so he can concentrate on his work...
yeah. there's other planes... and other responsibilities for the controller too... and the youtuber cuts out the science too
@@jamescollier3 The pilot has no responsibility to respond to the controller during an emergency. The controller can ask them information but aren’t guaranteed a response. The priority is flying and navigating. It’s the ATC’s job to keep other planes clear of that emergency plane in the meantime, regardless of whether they’re providing intent or not. That ATC is at the whim and command of those pilots after an emergency is declared. Other planes are not a priority.
@@OfficialSamuelC Two mistakes: One) If they fly into an area where he's not talking to the other planes, that's a problem 2) Yes, he's still responsible for his area's other planes. 3) silences are trimmed, so he's likely waiting a few minutes between calls
Couldn't the pilot even attempt proper procedure. His first call should have been MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY Alegient 2254 FIRE #2 engine level at 5000 returning to the airport for a visual landing. He didn't have a fire indication, it's not just a pretty light, it is an indication but what you have is a FIRE!!! Once the fire is out then you can change you mind and say you need to do some other thing, but if that was a fire that didn't come under control then history shows you might not live to reach a runway if you insist on running the procedures.
Heh, the thing about emergencies is that everyone gets a little skittish and more weird things tend to happen. Lol like the dude with the heading indicator failure relying on the compass. As a controller, I can confirm that something unusual ALWAYS comes along with an emergency lol
Going on an Allegiant flight to Sanford in a few hours. The bad luck should’ve already been used up
Indeed Connor. I think some bad luck was used up alright. But some folk certainly helped getting rid of it. We need lots of good luck these days.
Write a will.
Have flown multiple Allegiant mad dogs out of Sanford. Will never fly with them after multiple issues.
Not only did they NOT run the APUs at the gate to provide us cabin A/C in the middle of summer. After being delayed for hours in Tennessee because the brand new Airbus that was supposed to take us back to Sanford had wing damage…they then took hours to unload our baggage once we landed at KSFB.
After Flying for Delta for work, it’s not even in the same league, obviously, but given I live right next to KMLB, it’s a no brainer not to use Delta for major travel
@@SpencerRichKM4KFG definitely not comparable airlines. Low cost carrier that has a fleet of airbus only vs a legacy carrier that flys all over the world. The services are nowhere near close.
Good luck!
Keeping me entertained at work, thank you VAS!
Additional credit for your entertainment goes to CFM International for manufacturing the malfunctioning engine
I'm just West of KSFB, I hear the Allegiant planes coming in all day. It's a training airport so a lot of student pilots buzzing around, N34042 may have been one of them.
There's a city named DeLand? That's unfortunate for aviators, could cause some confusion.
Tower: "N32042 after the option where are you going?"
N32042: "Were gonna go down to DeLand"
Tower: "That's a negative, we can't clear you to land"
😂😂😂
Roger, Roger. What's the vector Victor? Oveur Over.
@@mikeybhoutex We have clearance, Clarance!
Deland is a nice airport. Parachute operations there. Quite the thrill
Might be a better option than DeSea, depending on how windy it is.
Wow... an emergency and another craft with instrument problems. I wonder if there was a better way to communicate how many degrees to deviate from his present heading or something. At least they had a backup compass to bring out to try to course correct.
Yes, like when asked for a degree vector the controller should have said to turn right or left 10 degrees( or the necessary number of degree turn.)
And the pilot during the first and most definitely the second call should have checked / compare compass heading which great job on the pilot's part as it appeared that is what he was doing.
042 even asked for a degree turn.
@@DomManInT1 yes but giving an off heading will not really work as the controller looks at scope and gives headings off the scope. To mental math the difference is too much and will get confusing. Much simpler and faster to give a direction and a number of degrees to turn.
A controller could also give what's called a compass turn. In that case the controller would simply say "turn right (or left as needed)" and once he sees the A/C approach the heading that the controller needs the A/C to be would then tell the A/C to "Stop" but compass turns do take a bit more concentration on the part of the controller and usually only used during instrument usage with a failed vaccum or DH system.
I'm not sure if giving the GA pilot a bearing (aka, degree turn) would have helped. The best thing to do is to use a reliable backup, which he did. His altitude was low as well, indicating perhaps a primary equipment failure.
@@hack1n8r giving a certain number of degrees to turn would work. I have been given directions like "turn 10 degrees left to avoid traffic" headings before.
You do bring up a point I may have missed. The A/C 's altitude. If the A/C's altitude is too low then it may put the A/C below the MVA of the controller, but I doubt that is the case here because the controller was giving Vectors.
Alternate caption: A319 destroys the traffic pattern.
The three rules of being a pilot: aviate, navigate and communicate.
Yessir and airbus created fly, navigate, communicate to be different lol
Only for the first 30 second or so then it becomes team work, team work, team work.
@@alialsaif7951 😂😂😂😂😂
@@EdOeuna Indeed. The whole flight crew is one team.
@@NBT2469 - the whole “aviate, navigate, communicate” thing is rather tiresome and doesn’t really work well with high capacity RPT. Sure it works for the first 1000ft or during the first moments of a scenario. After that it’s straight into the management.
"We'll get back to you" means they're presently fighting the fire. Every time you ask them a question, you're taking them out of the checklist that leads the crew to blowing the fire bottles. There's no assistance anyone else can provide that will put the fire out. If they're in distress, they'll tell you what they need.
ATC needed the emergency declaration to give them the latitude to get the job done. They low key asked for it twice, but the pilots were scared to utter the E word.
@@briansmyla8696 ATC doesn't need a declaration to give, nor do pilots need to specifically declare to receive emergency priority. If a pilot tells ATC they're on fire, emergency declared. ATC can designate any airplane they want as an emergency aircraft. They don't need pilot approval.
I believe either the pilot or ATC can declare an emergency, I’ve seen VAS videos where the ATC declared the emergency for the pilots due to flight deck workload
great work as always victor!
So I hear there is an emergency, can I take up your time with touch and gos?
Legend has it that they are still heading 050
I’ve flown Allegiant 4 times out of Sanford in the last 3 months.
Note to self: always carry a compass ...
Not sure what type of aircraft 042 was. But most GA have both radio compass and magnetic compass installed. But, if your mag compass is off and you calibrate your radio compass to the mag on takeoff, you are screwed the rest of the flight. Good habit while still on the apron to point the nose of the pane at the known north and check mag compass.
It might not be the most accurate, but most smartphones have a compass app. I have also been able to correlate the indicated altitude and GPS coordinates with the flight tracker while riding as a passenger on commercial flights (in airplane mode of course).
It was VFR conditions, turning his plane to the right he should have known his heading was between 90 and 180 and not 050
@@HighOctane-wo6cm
Yeah he looked like he was flying between 150 and 180 heading.
OMG the same happened 4 days later on a Allegiant Sanford to Plattsburgh except it was a bird in the engine number 2!!
Video on the channel
Hm...I live in Orlando, some of our flights leave from there (Orlando Sanford Int'l Airport). Didn't know about this though.
What doesn't ATC understand about "we'll get back to you"?
Whats the point of repeatedly asking "do you require any assistance"? Yeah can you send those aerial fire engines up here to put out our fire please
And that friends, is why you always calibrate your directional gyro.
Yes.
Oh that poor controller. You can HEAR the stress level rising and rising. Also, though, aren't planes REQUIRED to have a gosh darned COMPASS visible at all times as a backup? I mean, really?
Tell that to my 40 year old heading indicator.
@@Pants4096 They are, but if you have flown a small aircraft, the compass bounces around and is only accurate in straight and level flight.
I neglected to do that once as a student, but corrected it in the air. No one knew. Never did it again.
It never rains but it pours.
is it normal if you lose an engine to stay in the air longer just to complete checklists?
The checklists are to make sure they can safely land the plane on one engine.
Ugh, hate it when ATC keep calling EM aircraft to ask if they need assistance when they were already told to standby. Leave them be and let them work it. Then the same guy dealing with the 050 heading issue and just keeps repeating the same thing and not actually solving the problem and they already asked for a degree vector (like 10 left, etc) to fix the issue, but ATC didn't pick up on that. Need more training for ATC on emergencies. I keep hearing them nag EM aircrafts for ATIS and other things when that's just exasperating the situation.
Why couldn't ATC tell 042 to turn left 90 degrees (or whatever the appropriate turn)?
If the gyro instrument is malfunctioning, there's no guarantee that the malfunction is just an offset issue (i.e. the instrument is reading your true heading plus XXX degrees). For all we, ATC, or the pilot knows, the instrument may be stuck fast on 050, and turning the plane wouldn't move it at all, or the instrument may move only 10 degrees for a 60 degree change in heading (gain issue). Best to ignore any instrument known to be faulty and work with a good instrument.
Allegiant which flies out of the nearby regional airport recently announced the order of 50MAX aircraft.
Yes, indeed, 30 MAX 7 and 20 MAX8-200.
I guess Boeing gives them away cheap
Um Orlando to Traverse City is about a 3-hour flight.. And they have just about 3 hours of fuel?? Definitely not flying with them anytime soon.
:-)
Well, I guess they have 3 hours of fuel at the current altitude. Usually they fly higher. Higher Altitude = lower air density = lower fuel usage = more hours of fuel. Also with one engine down I guess the remaining one needs to deliver higher power and run outside the optimal speed for fuel efficiency.
@@adlerweb no no no.. that's 3 hours of flight time at cruising altitude. In what world would it make sense to say that they have 3 hours of fuel left and it takes 3 hours to get there cruising below cruising altitude?
I'll tell you why that happened if you really want to know. It was a wag. Pilots have more important things to do than calculate the exact amount if fuel in time, at that very moment. That question jumps in front of the line, every time, in a line of far more important things the crew needs to do. It's "aviate, navigate, communicate" not, "figure out exactly the amount of fuel you have on board in time, communicate, aviate, navigate". We have to go through the ECAM engine fire checklist, strait in single approach checklists, overweight landing checklist, calculate runway performance for single engine landing, and give the lead FA a TEST briefing. So, fuel in time is close to zero importance for the crew, at that moment. If ATC waited, even just 2 or 3 minutes to ask that question, the crew could take the time to give a more accurate number. But in the first minute in the heat of battle sorry, you're getting a wag just to shut down the questions. We have work to do.
2 for 1 today. Nice video, thanks!
Thank you very much! :-)
Ayy LewDix aviation flies N32042 sometimes
Heads up, you misspelled “engine fire” in the video description. 😉
Great video tho!
and "pilots"
An indication that the engine is pissed would be pretty funny, though.
(Note the description initially said "piltos reported having an engine ire indication.")
Not an aviator or in the industry in any way at all but like watching these. Does seem to me that the ATC was kind of bothering the emergency pilots alot and then started getting excited.
The plane was heading out of the tower’s airspace into the areas controlled by approach/departure. The tower only controls a small space around the airport. Ideally, the pilots would have switched over to approach and that controller would have more room to work them about (and more ability to clear traffic) for the emergency aircraft’s return to the field. But the pilots decided it was better for them to not mess with radios and get the airplane back on the ground.
@@noochification until they didn't. Seems like they took a lot of time to get the plane on the ground running checklists
Yeah..there needs to be a complete review of ATC emergency procedures...with working pilots involved
N32042 isn’t the plane LewDix uses?
I like this controller. Calm and clear. No weird ass questions in a Boston or NYC accent.
Didn't even scream at the guy who lost his compass, and didn't try to start an argument.( Even though it's been scientifically proven that a cock measuring contest with blustering and scathing sarcasm is in fact the best way to communicate with pilots experiencing an emergency.)
He could even say the phrase "cleared to land" in English.
I hear him all the time since I'm close to KSFB, they have a good crew there.
The controller actually did a pretty moderate job. Bothering the emergency aircraft 3 times when its common sense that they have to ckeck what the problem is and what their options are before talking to ATC. He was not calm at all, seemed pretty nervous and annoying. Not giving the other guy different instructions when it was obvious that repeating "heading 050" ten times doesnt help at all.
Not a pilot or ATC but as an outsider it makes sense to me to get back on the ground as quickly as possible during an in flight emergency.
What benefit is there to doing circles in the air to cover a checklist as opposed to just heading for the runway??
Ultimately, it's the aircraft commander's call how to fly the aircraft, but the checklists are really important to complete to ensure that the plane is properly secured after an engine fire and correctly configured for landing. The immediate threat to the aircraft has been dealt with (fire extinguished and engine 2 shut down) so you can afford to take your time - the plane is designed to fly on 1 engine. In a non-normal situation like this, the plane is not going to handle in the usual way, so it's not a standard approach and the flight crew will need to brief the approach.
Are random direction instrument failures common? That sounds serious if the auto pilot uses that instrument for directional control, you could end up in the middle of the Indian ocean.
Pretty rare, I would guess most pilots see more of them practising partial panel than they will their whole flying career. This sort of problem is more common on older instruments, glass can still fail but it's usually a lot more obvious when it does, it doesn't normally just display something wrong. (Or so I understand; not a pilot myself)
LOL auto pilot.
I feel like I’ve watched this before. Is this a reupload?
Different channel similar to this one posted it about a month ago
How many checklists do you need to perform when you only have 1 engine?
what means "cleared for the option"?
It means you are cleared to do a full stop , touch and go, missed approach, low approach or even a stop and go. You'll usually hear this at airports with a lot of student pilots.
Try and watch Lewdix Aviation he's based there on Orlando and is a CFI.
@@miokujou Ah thank you very much. I never hear this while flying in Germany..
I find it odd that as the controller knows Allegiant is dealing with lists and issues, still he adds additional work by having them circle around since he apparently didnt want them over 10 miles away lol. And, after 042 tells him the instrument is not working, still tells him 050 on heading. Prior to pilot retrieving old school compass...
Yeah atc was a bit odd
@@jakobbb6405 I believe that was because over 10 miles out he would have had to hand him over and the Captain clearly requested to stay with the tower. This situation was created by the flight crew. By their requests, they gave the impression they wanted to return ASAP and then, went to a "do checklists" timeline. If they were going to take the time and distance to run checklists, they should have accepted the tower's request to go over to departure.
@@MrCrystalcranium it wasn't just that. Also tower could have gave them vectors to stay in his airspace i think. And I have seen it that an aircraft could go outside of tower airspace coordinated with the other controller. All possible. The controller just didn't do too well of a job i think. It wasn't bad but we have seen way better examples on this channel. Just what I think as someone who is not an irl controller or pilot
@@jakobbb6405 An engine fire is no joke and it would not be unusual for a captain to request an immediate landing and when they said to the tower "I wanna stay with you" that is pretty clear to me they, at that moment, intended to get on the ground ASAP. When they realized they had time, they should have told ATC in the tower it was ok to hand them off. The tower controller was very busy handling departures, landings and the taxiways. He had plenty to do.
Are we going to ignore that ATC did not ask for fuel in lbs after being told remaining time? 😂
Or how about ignore the fact that Sanford to traverse City is about a 3-hour flight time.
@@napalmstickylikeglue wow how did I miss that lol interesting
Hola desde Nerja!
Kufos to the ATC for dealing with the 042 while having an emergency on the list. Cool, he did it anyways. He surely went „WTF“?!? After 042 finally turned 050. :)
Engine fire indication = immediate emergency delcaration. Why are pilots scared to use the E word?
Nobody was scared, when you are putting out a fire in your home, are you calling 911 to declare the e word or are you searching for the extinguisher? Most likely people of your type just run outside screaming emergency, emergency and expect someone else to call as you video your house go up in flames.
Im wondering with regards to their semi random pattern after engine fire indication, dont their company provide them with an engine out procedure?
There is. Most pilots do not study or memorize it. They literally have to look it up in the book (or on a tablet computer).
@@DomManInT1 hey dom thanks for your reply!! Well you can always set it up in the secondary in the mcdu.. activate it and itll fly there. Also we can set up rings on the ND and fly to the EO point to hold. we do that in our company where its always there when we set up the speeds so its mandatory for us to set it up in the mcdu. Im not sure if this method is implemented else where though as every company have their respective SOPs.
In an engine out/engine fire situation there are things called Memory Items that the pilots needs to do immediately. After doing the memory items the pilot monitoring will get the QRH (Quick Reference Handbook) and do the checklist.
With so many situations that can happen to an aircraft you cannot expect the pilots to memorize the QRH plus it is also safer to just read the checklist off of the QRH so that they won't miss anything. At the same time there are Memory Items that pilots needs to know by heart because when the situation arises you do not have time to get and scan the QRH.
@@miokujou hi mio thanks for your reply. Yeah of course pilots have to do the memory items. For engine fail/fire extinguished/engine damage after takeoff, it takes around 10-30 seconds to secure the engines. Then they can fly the company provided EO route which is inserted in the secondary flight plan by activating it. Now the air raft will fly as programmed and the pilots can do the checklists without a hustle. ofc after activating the AP. So my question is that why didnt the pilots fly the EO route? Was it not programmed? Not provided by the company?
@@midknight1978 Ohh that's what you meant, sorry I misunderstood, that I don't know why. Only the pilots and/or the company can answer that. We don't know their company procedures and training when dealing with these sort of situation.
Control did a nice..Is a checklist more important than getting on the ground? Im not a pilot..i have learned alot from Aviation Channels and i know checklists are important but they are close to airfield and it seems the risk is not worth it.not critical of pilots just asking..Thanks again VAS for the video👍👍
If the fire seems to be out, better to take the time to clean up than to miss something important. If the fire's still going, get it on the ground ASAP!
Also, 2 left 360s is probably an extra 4 minutes or so, and turning into the good engine.
I suspect this was the first emergency for that controller. When A pilot tells you he has an engine problem, he needs time to figure out the next actions. Repeatedly asking if he needs assistance is just adding to the workload. The controller was told several times, "We'll get back to you" by the crew. That means "I'll call you, please stop interrupting me. Right now you can "assist" me by being quiet unless you see me headed for a mountain."
It really depends on the individual situation, but as a general rule you wanna stick to the checklists because those procedures have been developed based on decades of experience and mishaps. There are cases when you either don't have the time, or the adequate checklist doesn't yet exist (for example US Airways flight 1549), of course, but that's sort of an exception. Checklist ensure you don't forget anything important or that a lapse in your judgement doesn't make things worse
@@arkiefyler Not many mountains in Florida! He did mention the communications antennas near Orange City though.
@@Zerbey Yeah, but a good pilot can roll to ~45° as needed to fly between the tower and the guy wires. They were VFR, after all!! 😳
Compasses are so 2021. This is 2022.
Allegaint is task saturated and the controller continues piling on communications and requests.
Good God, The problems that these engines are having these days.
Nothing out of the norm tho when you compare the number of incidents to total number of flights.
@@Jack3md Yes, indeed.
ATC has some god like patience and multi-tasking skills.
@LewDixAviation this you in 32042? 😂😂
I’d rather walk than fly this airline again
here come all the armchair pilots giving us their expertise
Time to ban armchairs! 😂😂😂
Anyone else noticed that N32042 is the aircraft LewDix is flying most of the time? 😂😂😂
Now that you say that. LewDix needs to see this 😂
@@miokujou I messaged him after this, he said he didn’t know anything about it. Although if this happened to the aircraft I’m flying, I’d like to know what happened
These young controllers always seemed to get a little flustered under pressure.
Perhaps the pilot read the heading on the wrong side. That would be 230 south-east.
Uh…. Now I think YOU’RE reading the wrong side; 230 is southWEST.
@@joeschmoe7221 Ah.. err... You're right.. shame
Yeah, I’ve never made that mistake dozens of times before.
Ever, lol…
US pilots will never ever say MAYDAY
O
I am always surprised no one declares pan pan or mayday the controller had to declare the emergency for him because the pilot never used the word "emergency".
First of all the pilots declared, not the controller. Second of all, they don't need to scream mayday. They said they had an engine fire, they shut down the engine, and they needed to return. What more information did the controller need that would be conveyed by the magic word "mayday?" You watch too many bad movies.
1:37
I think we listened to different videos then, the one I watched the pilot said and I am declaring an emergency while the controller responded with understand you're declaring an emergency.
Seems crazy that you can have an engine fire, shutdown, and still have to run checklists before landing.
it's a good thing. makes sure your failed engine won't explode mid-air.
Ensures you shut down the correct engine then make the best plans for a return to land.
Weenie and marshmallow roast in the back!
damn you could hear the pilot's voice shaking
We will get back to you is stupid phraseology. These guys obviously think they are the only traffic in the sky.
You Americans really don't give a crap about ICAO annex 10 do you? xD
You mean FAA?
Oh we do give a crap, last I checked 583 people weren't killed in the U.S. thanks to KLM flight 4805 in Tenerife.
@@VASAviation Does FAA have rules about comms that are not inline with annex 10?