Comparing waves on the scope, there is a visible and audible defect with the sine and triangle waves coming from the B2600. Having worked on 2600s in the past, I know why this is. 2600s require older, low slew rate op amps to smooth out that glitch. All of the wave shapes are derived from a sawtooth wave. If you use a modern op amp in the sine and triangle shapers, the point at which the direction changes, there is instability leading to the glitch. It is very fast and older op amps don't track it, newer faster op amps (ex: TL07x) do track it. I have not been inside a B2600, but judging by what I see on your scope, it is not using the recommended op amp LM301, no doubt due to cost considerations. The older designs cost more nowadays, plus the older op amps require an external compensating capacitor. I think your scope does FFT, you could also see the difference there.
@anthonyflagg4363 I looked at B2600 VCO2 Sine on the scope with an FFT display. I compared that Sine with the VCF in oscillation, which produced a pure Sine wave w/o the glitch. It's really difficult to hear the difference (but you can see the difference on the scope). It's even more difficult to see the difference in the FFT. It's there, but hard to see clearly because the upper harmonics are at a lower level. Comparing the shape visually on the scope, VCO2 is flatter at the top & bottom, where the Filter Sine wave has a nice sinusoidal curve at top & bottom . I'm guessing that the difference in shape at the top&bottom is more critical than the glitch in terms of creating upper harmonics. Still I would not bet my next meal on that.
The glitch is caused by the non-zero reset time of the sawtooth waveform. If you then use a fullwave rectifier to flip the lower part of the waveform up and create a triangle, you get this type of narrow spike at the peak of the traingle wave. The worse the reset time is, the worse the spike gets. Using slower op-amps for the rectifier and later stages as you suggest is essentially adding some degree of filtering to remove the (generally *very*) high frequency spike. Although it's fairly obvious on the scope, it's clearly very short. You say it's audible, but not on my laptop speakers! Does the original 2600 have this feature, I wonder? A lot of the older analog synths have some quirks in their waveforms - which is great, btw! Who wants laboratory equipment waveforms for making music?!? Let's have things with some character!
@@TomWiltshire-v5l Tom! Thanks for watching the video and commenting. 1) I just checked the original 2600 service manual. The op amp in the triangle wave shaping circuit is a lower slew rate LM301 op amp. 2) The sine wave is created from the triangle wave. It also uses an LM301. I can hear more difference between the the sine waves (K2600 vs B2600) than I can the triangle. As I mentioned above, comparing the shape visually on the scope, VCO2 is flatter at the top & bottom (and perhaps even less pure on the B2600, IDK). The Filter in oscillation produces a sine wave has a nice sinusoidal curve at top & bottom. I'm guessing that the difference in shape at the top & bottom is more critical than the glitch in terms of creating upper harmonics. I agree glitches can add character. Perhaps in the sine wave, I'd prefer a purer wave.
People often "upgraded" their ARP 2600 with faster opamps. I never liked that sound, and maybe this is why. The original ARP was midrangey and dark, but it gave it its voice.
Guys, I know it's hard to ignore the price point in the comparison. I'm trying to provoke a discussion about the features, not the price. The low price is just one of the great things about the Behringer.
Forgive me purists, but the Behringer version is not only better value/bang for buck, but it also has extra features that brings it more into the modern era. Is there really a need for a speaker? No. Is there really a need for the real spring tank? No, not really.
the spring tank is literally the 2600 sound. its one of the most important components of the 2600. Its a shame behringer didnt focus any effort there as thats where it lost big time. Korg really did nail the spring module and tank
Are you still planning on doing a part 2 video with more in depth comparisons to the sound? After having them both for a few months now, how are you still feeling about them compared to each other? Thanks for this btw.
Thanks for the reminder! It is currently third in the queue. I’m thinking about how to present this. Obviously, I would try to produce the same patch, as closely as possible. Any ideas on what patches would be of interest to you?
Thanks for the clear opinion. For the record, the Korg 2600 FS is not vintage. It's about three years old. I agree with the vintage madness (for the most part).
@@ozhalljr I'm speaking from the bedroom musicians perspective, one who makes $0 from making noise : But for a working musician, by all means get what what ones heart desires .... Cheers 🥂
@@EBMZEQUENZER- my experience of working musicians (6 years in pro audio sales) is that they’ll take the cheapest option that works. Most of them aren’t as well off as hobbyists.
IMO, the difference is huge. I had a Behringer Blue Marvin, actually I had two of them and they were great, I'd say amazing for the price and I'd also say that yes the Korg is certainly overpriced. That said, the buipd quality is obviously a huge difference and I like having the big one in a case made like an original with the keyboard. The sound differences I hear are number one in the spring reverb, Korg's spring reverb sounds better to my ears, there's also a difference in gain staging that I think gives it a sound difference that I can hear, to my ears I hear a big difference there, obviously I never had them side by side. Does the Korg warrant the massive difference in price, probably not. I think Korg could have done without the huge flight case and cut the price back a bit. I also think it's absolutely silly and mind boggling that korg included both an arppegiator and sequencer and MIDI, yet gave us no options whatsoever for syncing clock on a $5000 instrument.
Just revisiting this video. Very lively and informative comments OZ!. I was wondering if your Korg electronic switch is controllable by an external clock? As you probably know the B2600 is a little strange in this respect. If you plug in an external clock in? On my B Blue Marvin plugging in a clock will control the S+H rate but not the switch rate. There is a work around that I found though by not plugging the cable in all the way you can actually control both. This works pretty well but it is not a reliable connection as you can imagine. I was thinking about wiring a new jack for this purpose but that might be tricky. Can you check that out on your Korg to see if it is the same? This might be a good subject for a future comparison. Great video as usual. cheers
@@ozhalljr Thanks so much OZ for checking. The work around of half plugging it in does work just fine but, if you bump it or move another cable etc. it knocks it out. I am looking into a more permanent solution as I mentioned. Like building another plug dedicated to that purpose but not sure what a hassle it would be. Thanks again for checking though. Cheers
I barely have room for the B2600 let alone the Korg! Strangely, I thought I wanted the B2600 but I still haven't actually stumped up the cash so I guess I don't want it as much as I thought.
It’s a great synth (B2600). I really enjoy programming with the normalled connections plus patch ability. Also I think the digital ’verb sound good. Perhaps a used one from Reverb.com? Let me know if you decide to buy one.
The difference in sound is huge when you own them both for enough time. The Behringer original model is impressively dull sounding. Definitely something going on in the VCO and EG section. I sold them both because i generally dislike the UI, filter, and envelopes. But i understand the appeal, which is why i bought them.
I haven't done an exhaustive shoot out of the full signal chain (i.e. comparing complete patches). I'm hoping to working on some comparisons like that. So what's your go-to synth these days?
Just to note - you have the Korg Oscillator level lover than the Behringer! The amplitude difference is clear and obvious. Also - you have some clipping on the Behringer, but not the Korg. It's not a like-for-like comparison.
Yes there is a volume difference on some waveforms. Which waveform has clipping? I see a glitch in the triangle of the Behringer. It's at the top of the waveform and it drops sharply for an instant. That's not from clipping.
Thanks for commenting! I prefer the Korg sin wave because for a sin you don't want any overtones , just the fundamental. Of course it is just that ... a preference.
to make things short behringer has more options. Sound, you can't judge from that video as raw A/B osc is super useless it's all about filter + vca etc... Of course behringer is as usual shit quality with bad noise ratio and pots that will break in a year.
What noise floor? You must be talking about the Korg Ms-20 mini. My Blue Marvin is just as quiet as my Korg 2600m. And the only thing I expect to break over the next few years are the plastic nuts on the korg 2600m 😂
Thanks for this detailed comparison of these two versions of the 2600. When doing the oscilloscope comparisons of the different oscillator waveshapes from both synths, was the filter fully opened on the Korg 2600? For some reason, the Korg sounded darker, and the Behringer sounded much brighter and buzzier on all waveshapes.
That's a good description of the difference. What you see/hear is the direct waveform coming from the oscillator, no mixer/filter/amp. ( there may be some FX in the mixer ). The B2600 has a glitch in both the triangle and sine waveforms. (see the pinned comment by @anthonyflagg4363 for a discussion of this ). The buzz you're hearing is most likely due to this glitch ( but see my comment in that thread about additional distortion in the sine wave ).
@ozhalljr Thanks for the explanation. Maybe this glitch and extra upper harmonics aren't a bad thing. Looking at it from an advantage perspective, I think it gives the B2600 it's own character and might make the waves/synth cut through the mix better, especially for basslines. This kinda makes me wonder if the B2600 is more capable of sounding closer to a Minimoog than the original 2600 and Korg remake.
The Behringer 2600 control labeling in orange and lit LED lights make it so much easier to look at and locate controls than the Korg 2600. The extra controls and sync on the Behringer make it more flexible in terms of sound than the Korg.
I agree, it is a great sounding spring implementation. I almost mentioned that in the video. Honestly, I think it sounds smoother/better than the actual spring reverb. One thing that's cool about the actual spring reverb is that you can rock the case of the 2600 FS to hear the "spring reverb thunder" effect.
I think it´s useless without a highpass. the spring on the meanie isn´t better though, so is the one on the korg. nothing beats the real thing. I send the Behringer 2600 to an erica synths black spring, it´s a huge improvement.
@@toslinkedthe b2600 digital spring reverb is useless without a high-pass filter? Maybe for you! I would say EQ and filters are useful in a mix. But it always depends on the circumstances.
Interesting. I had a Hammond decades ago. It may have been the L122, IDK (it was not a B3). I had a (borrowed) Leslie, that made all the difference in the sound. With the parts you have it should be possible to build a stand alone reverb (but I've never done a spring reverb project).
I can do it because it's my channel :) No seriously, the Korg 2600 FS has a market value of at least 10x the cost of the Behringer 2600. That's the 500 pound gorilla in the room, unless you factor it out with the hypothetical qualifier. Th B2600 has more robust oscillator with features like sync, PWM and more outputs. The K2600 has a keyboard and speakers. The packages are different (rack vs tolex case). Moreover many people will prefer the smaller or larger formats. That's what I'm trying to get people to evaluate and share their opinions on.
Comparing waves on the scope, there is a visible and audible defect with the sine and triangle waves coming from the B2600. Having worked on 2600s in the past, I know why this is. 2600s require older, low slew rate op amps to smooth out that glitch. All of the wave shapes are derived from a sawtooth wave. If you use a modern op amp in the sine and triangle shapers, the point at which the direction changes, there is instability leading to the glitch. It is very fast and older op amps don't track it, newer faster op amps (ex: TL07x) do track it. I have not been inside a B2600, but judging by what I see on your scope, it is not using the recommended op amp LM301, no doubt due to cost considerations. The older designs cost more nowadays, plus the older op amps require an external compensating capacitor. I think your scope does FFT, you could also see the difference there.
Great analysis! I can hear the extra high end harmonic content caused by the glitch. I’ll see if I can see it on the FFT.
@anthonyflagg4363 I looked at B2600 VCO2 Sine on the scope with an FFT display. I compared that Sine with the VCF in oscillation, which produced a pure Sine wave w/o the glitch. It's really difficult to hear the difference (but you can see the difference on the scope). It's even more difficult to see the difference in the FFT. It's there, but hard to see clearly because the upper harmonics are at a lower level. Comparing the shape visually on the scope, VCO2 is flatter at the top & bottom, where the Filter Sine wave has a nice sinusoidal curve at top & bottom .
I'm guessing that the difference in shape at the top&bottom is more critical than the glitch in terms of creating upper harmonics. Still I would not bet my next meal on that.
The glitch is caused by the non-zero reset time of the sawtooth waveform. If you then use a fullwave rectifier to flip the lower part of the waveform up and create a triangle, you get this type of narrow spike at the peak of the traingle wave. The worse the reset time is, the worse the spike gets. Using slower op-amps for the rectifier and later stages as you suggest is essentially adding some degree of filtering to remove the (generally *very*) high frequency spike. Although it's fairly obvious on the scope, it's clearly very short. You say it's audible, but not on my laptop speakers!
Does the original 2600 have this feature, I wonder? A lot of the older analog synths have some quirks in their waveforms - which is great, btw! Who wants laboratory equipment waveforms for making music?!? Let's have things with some character!
@@TomWiltshire-v5l Tom! Thanks for watching the video and commenting.
1) I just checked the original 2600 service manual. The op amp in the triangle wave shaping circuit is a lower slew rate LM301 op amp.
2) The sine wave is created from the triangle wave. It also uses an LM301.
I can hear more difference between the the sine waves (K2600 vs B2600) than I can the triangle. As I mentioned above, comparing the shape visually on the scope, VCO2 is flatter at the top & bottom (and perhaps even less pure on the B2600, IDK). The Filter in oscillation produces a sine wave has a nice sinusoidal curve at top & bottom. I'm guessing that the difference in shape at the top & bottom is more critical than the glitch in terms of creating upper harmonics.
I agree glitches can add character. Perhaps in the sine wave, I'd prefer a purer wave.
People often "upgraded" their ARP 2600 with faster opamps. I never liked that sound, and maybe this is why. The original ARP was midrangey and dark, but it gave it its voice.
where can i get one of those synth sticks?
It’s a bamboo back scratcher 😂. I forget where I got it about 10 years ago.
😆@@ozhalljr
The Beringer $500
The Korg $5000
The Beringer $500
The Korg $5000
The Beringer $500
The Korg $5000…
Buy 10 Behringers and then do a comparison again Korg FS
Guys, I know it's hard to ignore the price point in the comparison. I'm trying to provoke a discussion about the features, not the price. The low price is just one of the great things about the Behringer.
@@chokocat9064 The 2600m is a good addition to the discussion. Thanks again!
if I had a choice as a gift I would take the korg since I had to buy one with my money I bought the behringer blue Marvin with a real spring reverb
The Behringer 2600 has an amazing price point now. It's perhaps 1/10th the price of the Korg 2600 FS.
One important thing to mention is the huge, and I mean HUGE cost difference.
Yes. 10x
They sound close enough to know that the major cost difference is a no brainer.
@@Subtronikyes
Forgive me purists, but the Behringer version is not only better value/bang for buck, but it also has extra features that brings it more into the modern era.
Is there really a need for a speaker? No.
Is there really a need for the real spring tank? No, not really.
@@chokocat9064 you get the Behringer and you have extra cash to spend in monitors/speakers if you want to use it for that purpose. B2600 still wins.
Thanks for commenting!
the spring tank is literally the 2600 sound. its one of the most important components of the 2600. Its a shame behringer didnt focus any effort there as thats where it lost big time. Korg really did nail the spring module and tank
@@mubakka2642 their blue marvin and grey meany has spring
@@jumpingman8160 i know and it sounds absolutely terrible and nothing like what a 2600 spring should sound like
Are you still planning on doing a part 2 video with more in depth comparisons to the sound? After having them both for a few months now, how are you still feeling about them compared to each other? Thanks for this btw.
Thanks for the reminder! It is currently third in the queue. I’m thinking about how to present this. Obviously, I would try to produce the same patch, as closely as possible. Any ideas on what patches would be of interest to you?
I'll pick Behringer anytime : the vintage madness needs to end
Moog Mini $5000 LOL give me a break LOL 😂 😁😁😁
Thanks for the clear opinion. For the record, the Korg 2600 FS is not vintage. It's about three years old. I agree with the vintage madness (for the most part).
@@ozhalljr I'm speaking from the bedroom musicians perspective, one who makes $0 from making noise : But for a working musician, by all means get what what ones heart desires ....
Cheers 🥂
@@EBMZEQUENZER- my experience of working musicians (6 years in pro audio sales) is that they’ll take the cheapest option that works. Most of them aren’t as well off as hobbyists.
IMO, the difference is huge. I had a Behringer Blue Marvin, actually I had two of them and they were great, I'd say amazing for the price and I'd also say that yes the Korg is certainly overpriced. That said, the buipd quality is obviously a huge difference and I like having the big one in a case made like an original with the keyboard. The sound differences I hear are number one in the spring reverb, Korg's spring reverb sounds better to my ears, there's also a difference in gain staging that I think gives it a sound difference that I can hear, to my ears I hear a big difference there, obviously I never had them side by side. Does the Korg warrant the massive difference in price, probably not. I think Korg could have done without the huge flight case and cut the price back a bit. I also think it's absolutely silly and mind boggling that korg included both an arppegiator and sequencer and MIDI, yet gave us no options whatsoever for syncing clock on a $5000 instrument.
I’m with you on the lack of sync. I sorely miss it.
Just revisiting this video. Very lively and informative comments OZ!. I was wondering if your Korg electronic switch is controllable by an external clock? As you probably know the B2600 is a little strange in this respect. If you plug in an external clock in? On my B Blue Marvin plugging in a clock will control the S+H rate but not the switch rate. There is a work around that I found though by not plugging the cable in all the way you can actually control both. This works pretty well but it is not a reliable connection as you can imagine. I was thinking about wiring a new jack for this purpose but that might be tricky. Can you check that out on your Korg to see if it is the same? This might be a good subject for a future comparison. Great video as usual. cheers
Tony, the behavior of the 2600 FS is exactly the same. I thought I had remembered that it worked as we would have expected, but alas, it does not.
@@ozhalljr Thanks so much OZ for checking. The work around of half plugging it in does work just fine but, if you bump it or move another cable etc. it knocks it out. I am looking into a more permanent solution as I mentioned. Like building another plug dedicated to that purpose but not sure what a hassle it would be. Thanks again for checking though. Cheers
It would have been a great extra if you had done a short demo in order to compare both on simple and complex timbers.
@TheSHARCRASH that's a great idea for a followup video. thanks.
I barely have room for the B2600 let alone the Korg! Strangely, I thought I wanted the B2600 but I still haven't actually stumped up the cash so I guess I don't want it as much as I thought.
It’s a great synth (B2600). I really enjoy programming with the normalled connections plus patch ability. Also I think the digital ’verb sound good. Perhaps a used one from Reverb.com? Let me know if you decide to buy one.
The difference in sound is huge when you own them both for enough time. The Behringer original model is impressively dull sounding. Definitely something going on in the VCO and EG section.
I sold them both because i generally dislike the UI, filter, and envelopes. But i understand the appeal, which is why i bought them.
I haven't done an exhaustive shoot out of the full signal chain (i.e. comparing complete patches). I'm hoping to working on some comparisons like that. So what's your go-to synth these days?
I'd rather have 10 behringers than 1 korg.
True, but for non monetary reasons, the Korg FS is the last analog synth I will sell.
Just to note - you have the Korg Oscillator level lover than the Behringer! The amplitude difference is clear and obvious. Also - you have some clipping on the Behringer, but not the Korg. It's not a like-for-like comparison.
Yes there is a volume difference on some waveforms.
Which waveform has clipping? I see a glitch in the triangle of the Behringer. It's at the top of the waveform and it drops sharply for an instant. That's not from clipping.
Judging by the sound, the Korg's oscillator has a worse and softer sound.
Thanks for commenting! I prefer the Korg sin wave because for a sin you don't want any overtones , just the fundamental. Of course it is just that ... a preference.
kinda surprised that behringer has more harmonics in the sine. korg is smoother in general.. i can't speak to how that compares to the original arp
Check out this video ua-cam.com/video/mSdNJv_cm3s/v-deo.htmlsi=VVrTIyZDxrLK9yG-
to make things short behringer has more options. Sound, you can't judge from that video as raw A/B osc is super useless it's all about filter + vca etc... Of course behringer is as usual shit quality with bad noise ratio and pots that will break in a year.
I’ve had the B2600 from launch. It’s not broken. Nothing has ever gone wrong.
What noise floor? You must be talking about the Korg Ms-20 mini. My Blue Marvin is just as quiet as my Korg 2600m. And the only thing I expect to break over the next few years are the plastic nuts on the korg 2600m 😂
Thanks for this detailed comparison of these two versions of the 2600. When doing the oscilloscope comparisons of the different oscillator waveshapes from both synths, was the filter fully opened on the Korg 2600? For some reason, the Korg sounded darker, and the Behringer sounded much brighter and buzzier on all waveshapes.
That's a good description of the difference. What you see/hear is the direct waveform coming from the oscillator, no mixer/filter/amp. ( there may be some FX in the mixer ). The B2600 has a glitch in both the triangle and sine waveforms. (see the pinned comment by @anthonyflagg4363 for a discussion of this ). The buzz you're hearing is most likely due to this glitch ( but see my comment in that thread about additional distortion in the sine wave ).
@ozhalljr Thanks for the explanation. Maybe this glitch and extra upper harmonics aren't a bad thing. Looking at it from an advantage perspective, I think it gives the B2600 it's own character and might make the waves/synth cut through the mix better, especially for basslines. This kinda makes me wonder if the B2600 is more capable of sounding closer to a Minimoog than the original 2600 and Korg remake.
@@kvmoore1 could be. You probably already know that the 4012 filter type I (B2600 and K2600) is in fact a Moog Ladder topology.
@@ozhalljr Yes, I do.
The Behringer 2600 control labeling in orange and lit LED lights make it so much easier to look at and locate controls than the Korg 2600. The extra controls and sync on the Behringer make it more flexible in terms of sound than the Korg.
@cosmicdrone5270 thanks for clearly weighing in on this.
@@ozhalljr And I forgot to mention thanks for the awesome video! I dig all your content!
@@cosmicdrone5270 Thanks. I really appreciate that positive feedback.
The digital spring reverb on my stardard b2600 sounds amazing, i wouldn't change it for anything.
I agree, it is a great sounding spring implementation. I almost mentioned that in the video. Honestly, I think it sounds smoother/better than the actual spring reverb. One thing that's cool about the actual spring reverb is that you can rock the case of the 2600 FS to hear the "spring reverb thunder" effect.
I think it´s useless without a highpass. the spring on the meanie isn´t better though, so is the one on the korg. nothing beats the real thing. I send the Behringer 2600 to an erica synths black spring, it´s a huge improvement.
@@toslinkedthe b2600 digital spring reverb is useless without a high-pass filter? Maybe for you!
I would say EQ and filters are useful in a mix. But it always depends on the circumstances.
Interesting. I had a Hammond decades ago. It may have been the L122, IDK (it was not a B3). I had a (borrowed) Leslie, that made all the difference in the sound.
With the parts you have it should be possible to build a stand alone reverb (but I've never done a spring reverb project).
How can you do a comparison and at the end say if money isn't a consideration?? If it wasn't I would probably buy a vintage ARP 2600... maybe 2!!!
I can do it because it's my channel :)
No seriously, the Korg 2600 FS has a market value of at least 10x the cost of the Behringer 2600. That's the 500 pound gorilla in the room, unless you factor it out with the hypothetical qualifier. Th B2600 has more robust oscillator with features like sync, PWM and more outputs. The K2600 has a keyboard and speakers. The packages are different (rack vs tolex case). Moreover many people will prefer the smaller or larger formats. That's what I'm trying to get people to evaluate and share their opinions on.
LOL. Post-Lawsuitr-Filter. Hah!
@ichigen511 Hope you enjoyed the video.