When Spike was captured by the Initiative in Buffy season 4, he asked the vampire in the cell next to him - "And they are? The government? Nazis? A bad cosmetics company?" Now we know why he thought of Nazis.
This might also give us a glimpse at the beginnings of the "Initiative". The way it progressed was sad in a way, all he wanted was a purpose, a reason for things being how they are. In the end I think he just wanted it over, the hostages were just a way to stop Angel long enough to speak his piece.
Awesome episode callback Flashbacks to WW2 timeline and Present Day, 😂 Return of Soulless Spike is always a gem lol "Im not getting stuck at the bottom of the ocean!" "And Im not getting experimented on by he's government" Ah That aged well Spike and Angel, Great reaction and review as always Dakara 🤘
@@Nexusofgeek Correct. In fact the only reason I had even heard of Captain America back then is that I had the figure as a Toy; from the Secret Wars range in the 80's. I had Captain America, Spiderman, Iron Man, Wolverine, Dr Octopus, Dr Doom, Magneto and Kang the Conqueror. Fairly sure I thought Ironman was a robot. Spiderman and X-Men I actually knew from the cartoons. The rest were completely unknown. I was actually excited about Kang appearing in the MCU as I always wondered who he was.
What struck me about this episode is that I know many of the writers in The Buffyverse also worked on the X-Files, but this episode is so much similar to the X-Files episode Triangle, where Mulder and Scully end up on ship full of Nazis during WW2. Great writing again here, and a very different type of episode, but still keeping up the brilliance of S5. A great ending when Angel forces the stake back against Sam Lawson.
The tragedy is that it’s indeed inferred that when Angel sires a vampire while having his soul, a the new vampire retains a fragment of their soul too. They retain the same instincts vampires have, to drink human blood (like Angel himself does) but they totally lack the desire to cause destruction and carnage. Should Angel have sired Darla as she begged in season 2, she would have still retained part of her soul. Angel even pondered this directly out loud. The vampire Angel turned wasn’t a regular vampire and indeed retained a fragment of his soul. He was lost. Completely uninterested in violence. He just wanted to know what to do with his eternal life as a creature caught between a demon and a human, like Angel himself.
to me, this episode is closer to what they wanted the whole Connor arc to be. like Connor, he doesn't feel a lot more than anger and pain. he's in a hellish world. he doesn't get and doesn't belong in. and he had no one to guide him through all of it - except for someone with an agenda to use him. he just wants it all to make sense, and it doesn't, so he just wants out.
Now we have an idea, how Darla would have been, if Angel would have turned her after her sickness returned ('...maybe it would be different...'). Oh, and a nice little Captain America reference in there😊. And wasn't it in the Hyperion, where they found him?
Personally, I don't believe that a vampire with a soul can sire another vampire with a soul. Especially, Angel. According to Angel "that's not how it works." He also states that what he was searching for was purpose. You don't necessarily need a soul for that. If you can love as a vampire then I'm sure you can desire a purpose as well. The episode is called "why we fight," that to me, is clearly the bigger picture/message of the episode. It's the thing Angel is currently lacking. Remember what he says to Conner? "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be." He is still struggling. He's inside the belly of the beast and it's swallowing him whole - meaning he no longer views himself as a champion. Cordy was a reminder of that and now that she's gone he is struggling to hold onto this belief. Lawson interestingly is mirroring him. Vampires seem to leave a reminisce of who they and this his. He waited 60 years for revenge. Hard to believe he was struggling with this too, the entire time.
It’s inferred that Angel’ curse allows him to sire vampires that retain a fragment of theirs too. He even states this aloud in season 2 when considering turning Darla.
"The one sired by the vampire with a soul shall grow to manhood and kill Sahjan." It's funny to realize that Sam could have conceivably been the one that this prophecy refers to instead of Connor. Growing to manhood didn't necessarily have to happen after being sired. So could any of the male vampires Spike made under the influence of his trigger in BTVS season 7. Also Angel sincerely told Buffy in BTVS season 1 that he had never killed a human since he was cursed. Liar.
While this isn’t my favorite episode I do like the implications of a vampire with a soul siring another vampire and whether they have a soul or not. I like the origin story of the Initiative and I appreciate the fact that Spike doesn’t want the government experimenting on him while Angel doesn’t want to be stuck on the bottom of the ocean. Lol
I've always believed that because Angel had a soul when he sired this vampire, that means that the vampires he turns still have souls as well. It also explains why he's so angry for being turned that he still wants revenge in the present as vampires are usually happy to be evil in t h e Buffyverse
Lawson always reminded me of Spike before Angelus molded him. I think this episode would have been much better if they had paralleled Lawson and Spike with and without Angelus’s influence. Vampire Lawson seemed to have kept a lot of his “humanity” (or so he says, but not seen) as did Spike which we’ve seen with wanting to save his mom, sacrificing for Buffy and Dawn before he got his soul. A 2 part episode or, at the very least, had been introduced to Lawson in Faith and Angel’s mind walk then the themes could have been fleshed out more and been truly compelling. Why are most vampires devoid of all humanity but a few maintain a large part of their former selves? Lawson was looking for a reason and Spike found one in his love for Buffy. The parallels were there for the taking.
One of the great consistencies in Buffyverse vampires is how big a role the human memories play when vampires rise. Unlike Liam, Lawson didn't want to kill his father and 'become' somebody. The poor demon who got Lawson's body got the memories of someone who wanted to do the right thing and stop the spread of evil. Someone who's last act was to volunteer to die in order to save others. I'm not surprised that he had a tough time of it. I see this one as a companion piece to “Destiny.” Angelus made Spike into the monster he became but Angel actually sired Lawson and Connor (in different ways). Both Connor and Lawson ended up with no reason to go on and threatened to kill the people Angel cared about. Neither of them could feel anything and both blamed Angel for ruining their life. Vampire Lawson parallels Connor but human Lawson represents Buffy and her ideals. This episode really puts an exclamation point on the difference between the two shows. Buffy decided that you don't fight evil by doing evil. Meanwhile Angel is having his friend's memories altered, siring vampires and negotiating with evil-doers to be slightly less evil. Angel chose his path but what can he do about it?
Yeeaah, feels too much like a retcon, adding Spike into the flashback mix; and sprinkling vampire control on top? A little too on the nose. But James brought in the viewers, so. Other than that, good story.
There have been many retcons in this show. They always served a purpose to tell the story of Angel defining his character. This one just didn't seem to have good reason IMO.
Why do you do this? Why can’t people just watch the episode without turning it into guessing game? Just for once try sitting back and just watching........
For me, this is the worst episode for the whole Angel series. That's saying a lot, because there aren't too many misses, by way of the fillers. It also signifies that the Whedonverse formula is about to drop some major episodes that have to do with the main story arc. If we measure the gravitas of the main plot by how bad the filler was, expect a doozie of awesomeness to follow.
It's actually one of the best episodes because of the implications. This is the only vampire Angel ever sired while he had a soul. Despite what he says, it's pretty clear that he has a soul as a result and that it drove him crazy
“They know each other very well.”
They also know each other _intimately_ too. 🤭
6:18 The Initiative that Riley was a part of started a lot earlier than you think.
And the chip started with German research.
When Spike was captured by the Initiative in Buffy season 4, he asked the vampire in the cell next to him - "And they are? The government? Nazis? A bad cosmetics company?" Now we know why he thought of Nazis.
This might also give us a glimpse at the beginnings of the "Initiative". The way it progressed was sad in a way, all he wanted was a purpose, a reason for things being how they are. In the end I think he just wanted it over, the hostages were just a way to stop Angel long enough to speak his piece.
Awesome episode callback Flashbacks to WW2 timeline and Present Day, 😂 Return of Soulless Spike is always a gem lol "Im not getting stuck at the bottom of the ocean!" "And Im not getting experimented on by he's government" Ah That aged well Spike and Angel, Great reaction and review as always Dakara 🤘
What always amazes me when I rewatch this episode was the reminder that when I first watched it I didn't know that Steve Rogers was Captain America.
then you probably didn't read comic books because those of us who did, did know especially given Cap's history
@@Nexusofgeek Correct.
In fact the only reason I had even heard of Captain America back then is that I had the figure as a Toy; from the Secret Wars range in the 80's. I had Captain America, Spiderman, Iron Man, Wolverine, Dr Octopus, Dr Doom, Magneto and Kang the Conqueror. Fairly sure I thought Ironman was a robot.
Spiderman and X-Men I actually knew from the cartoons. The rest were completely unknown. I was actually excited about Kang appearing in the MCU as I always wondered who he was.
5/13 is my birthday so always try to think of it as a "good" date even on a Friday. 😁
What struck me about this episode is that I know many of the writers in The Buffyverse also worked on the X-Files, but this episode is so much similar to the X-Files episode Triangle, where Mulder and Scully end up on ship full of Nazis during WW2. Great writing again here, and a very different type of episode, but still keeping up the brilliance of S5. A great ending when Angel forces the stake back against Sam Lawson.
The tragedy is that it’s indeed inferred that when Angel sires a vampire while having his soul, a the new vampire retains a fragment of their soul too. They retain the same instincts vampires have, to drink human blood (like Angel himself does) but they totally lack the desire to cause destruction and carnage.
Should Angel have sired Darla as she begged in season 2, she would have still retained part of her soul. Angel even pondered this directly out loud.
The vampire Angel turned wasn’t a regular vampire and indeed retained a fragment of his soul. He was lost. Completely uninterested in violence. He just wanted to know what to do with his eternal life as a creature caught between a demon and a human, like Angel himself.
How The Initiative really began.
Who else wanted one of the Initiative men to be smoking Morley cigarettes?
to me, this episode is closer to what they wanted the whole Connor arc to be. like Connor, he doesn't feel a lot more than anger and pain. he's in a hellish world. he doesn't get and doesn't belong in. and he had no one to guide him through all of it - except for someone with an agenda to use him. he just wants it all to make sense, and it doesn't, so he just wants out.
As a fan of Jensen Ackles, have you seen James Cameron’s TV show “Dark Angel” with Jessica Alba? Worth a look.
Season is really good ❤❤❤ love it alot
Now we have an idea, how Darla would have been, if Angel would have turned her after her sickness returned ('...maybe it would be different...').
Oh, and a nice little Captain America reference in there😊.
And wasn't it in the Hyperion, where they found him?
Personally, I don't believe that a vampire with a soul can sire another vampire with a soul. Especially, Angel. According to Angel "that's not how it works." He also states that what he was searching for was purpose. You don't necessarily need a soul for that. If you can love as a vampire then I'm sure you can desire a purpose as well.
The episode is called "why we fight," that to me, is clearly the bigger picture/message of the episode. It's the thing Angel is currently lacking. Remember what he says to Conner?
"Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be."
He is still struggling. He's inside the belly of the beast and it's swallowing him whole - meaning he no longer views himself as a champion. Cordy was a reminder of that and now that she's gone he is struggling to hold onto this belief. Lawson interestingly is mirroring him. Vampires seem to leave a reminisce of who they and this his. He waited 60 years for revenge. Hard to believe he was struggling with this too, the entire time.
It’s inferred that Angel’ curse allows him to sire vampires that retain a fragment of theirs too. He even states this aloud in season 2 when considering turning Darla.
"The one sired by the vampire with a soul shall grow to manhood and kill Sahjan." It's funny to realize that Sam could have conceivably been the one that this prophecy refers to instead of Connor. Growing to manhood didn't necessarily have to happen after being sired. So could any of the male vampires Spike made under the influence of his trigger in BTVS season 7.
Also Angel sincerely told Buffy in BTVS season 1 that he had never killed a human since he was cursed. Liar.
No - Angel said he hadn’t fed on a living human being, in Buffy season 1. Which is also a lie.
@@arc7375I think he meant in terms of feeding for food or fun. He turned the guy out of necessity.
While this isn’t my favorite episode I do like the implications of a vampire with a soul siring another vampire and whether they have a soul or not. I like the origin story of the Initiative and I appreciate the fact that Spike doesn’t want the government experimenting on him while Angel doesn’t want to be stuck on the bottom of the ocean. Lol
I've always believed that because Angel had a soul when he sired this vampire, that means that the vampires he turns still have souls as well. It also explains why he's so angry for being turned that he still wants revenge in the present as vampires are usually happy to be evil in t h e Buffyverse
Lawson always reminded me of Spike before Angelus molded him. I think this episode would have been much better if they had paralleled Lawson and Spike with and without Angelus’s influence. Vampire Lawson seemed to have kept a lot of his “humanity” (or so he says, but not seen) as did Spike which we’ve seen with wanting to save his mom, sacrificing for Buffy and Dawn before he got his soul. A 2 part episode or, at the very least, had been introduced to Lawson in Faith and Angel’s mind walk then the themes could have been fleshed out more and been truly compelling. Why are most vampires devoid of all humanity but a few maintain a large part of their former selves? Lawson was looking for a reason and Spike found one in his love for Buffy. The parallels were there for the taking.
One of the great consistencies in Buffyverse vampires is how big a role the human memories play when vampires rise. Unlike Liam, Lawson didn't want to kill his father and 'become' somebody. The poor demon who got Lawson's body got the memories of someone who wanted to do the right thing and stop the spread of evil. Someone who's last act was to volunteer to die in order to save others. I'm not surprised that he had a tough time of it.
I see this one as a companion piece to “Destiny.”
Angelus made Spike into the monster he became but Angel actually sired Lawson and Connor (in different ways). Both Connor and Lawson ended up with no reason to go on and threatened to kill the people Angel cared about. Neither of them could feel anything and both blamed Angel for ruining their life.
Vampire Lawson parallels Connor but human Lawson represents Buffy and her ideals. This episode really puts an exclamation point on the difference between the two shows. Buffy decided that you don't fight evil by doing evil. Meanwhile Angel is having his friend's memories altered, siring vampires and negotiating with evil-doers to be slightly less evil.
Angel chose his path but what can he do about it?
Not my favourite episode, but some nice ideas. Though oddly, it's Spike who really brings the episode down for me. He's just so forced in this ep
Yeeaah, feels too much like a retcon, adding Spike into the flashback mix; and sprinkling vampire control on top? A little too on the nose. But James brought in the viewers, so.
Other than that, good story.
Yeah there's a couple retcons in this episode I don't like. Ah well.
There have been many retcons in this show. They always served a purpose to tell the story of Angel defining his character. This one just didn't seem to have good reason IMO.
Why do you do this? Why can’t people just watch the episode without turning it into guessing game? Just for once try sitting back and just watching........
For me, this is the worst episode for the whole Angel series.
That's saying a lot, because there aren't too many misses, by way of the fillers.
It also signifies that the Whedonverse formula is about to drop some major episodes that have to do with the main story arc.
If we measure the gravitas of the main plot by how bad the filler was, expect a doozie of awesomeness to follow.
It's actually one of the best episodes because of the implications. This is the only vampire Angel ever sired while he had a soul. Despite what he says, it's pretty clear that he has a soul as a result and that it drove him crazy
@@popeye697 I don't think Lawson has a soul. Spike with a soul sired vampires in Buffy Season 7 and they did not have souls.