Well that hurt! - A Hole in the World: Angel 5x15 Reaction
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- Well that hurt! - A Hole in the World: Angel 5x15 Reaction
#angel #reaction #dakara
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"we're going to have a Fred-centric episode by the sound of things....I'm down".
Me: Oh my sweet girl...I'm so sorry
I thought the exact same thing when she said that... 😭
I am by myself watching this and said out loud to myself “you’re gonna regret saying that” lol ugh. One of the most devastating episodes of a show I’ve ever seen.
To be taken literally by those of us who know..."down" doesn't even begin to cover it.😱😭
The line "why can't I stay" put some knife in me every time. This episode is both traumatizing and amazingly acted. So while it tears me apart to watch it I'm also drawn to it for the exceptional acting. The next episode is also fantastic.
5:25 Can we all just appreciate that trust fall times 10? Bloody hell.
5:23 That moment. Lorne's "Oh shit!" spinning around because he instantly read Fred's vibe.
That look on Lorne’s face after he heard Fred sing…
It hunts me till this day
This is the episode that closes Fred's journey. Against all odds she survived Pylea, was essential in defeating Jasmine, and only loses to an enemy that destroys her from within. Definitely a hero among heroes.
Amazing acting from Amy Acker ahead, btw.
It's hard to think of any other media deaths that are simultaneously so heartbreaking, but also interesting from a narrative perspective. The lingering question of how much of Fred is left, the introduction of this crazy new character, the massive shakeup of the show's status quo...
20 years later and it still affects us all deeply. Sometimes I find comfort in reminding myself that even though Fred was killed off, at least Amy Acker got to stay in the show. And not only that, but she got to portray an exciting new character and really show off her range, which must have been exciting as an actor.
It's been 20 years, and this episode still leaves me haunted over the Caveman vs Astronauts debate.
And it fits the episode so well on retrospect.
Fun fact: it was Buffy writer, Doug Petrie, who wrote in writers room whiteboard and then Joss included it in that episode
They really didn't give us sufficient specifics to judge it accurately.
5:14 "Why do I actually love this though?" Because Joss is a master of giving you everything you want, then pulling the rug out from under you as you plunge into a howling abyss.
7:02 Wesley kneecapping the non-compliant is bloody brilliant.🤣 10:30 Yes, you should trust Knox, it'll be centuries before he betrays the crew of the Serenity. 😉
14:31 15:19 I don't know that I've watched any fiction ever that's more distressing than Fred trying not to die. Amy Acker is an amazing Performer, and Wesley (Alexis Denisof - damn him) is palpable in his grief. Simply brilliant and truly heart-breaking drama.
Last episode everyone's so happy that Wes and Fred are finally together. This episode, to quote Angelus "And she falls for it Every Time".
The ol' Whedon Whammy. Gives you what you want, but then curls a monkey paw, and twists the knife.
I always say Smile time was the Last smile for those watching
Fred: "I walk with Heroes." Wesley: "You are one." (That line gets me everytime.)
R.I.P. Fred, but we can't even have that because her soul was consumed.
Fred foreshadowed her fate unknowingly.
When the team is discussing which would win in a fight, astronaut vs caveman, Fred answers “Caveman hands down!” It serves as a lighthearted moment as she’s implying to herself surviving in Pylea.
Fred represents a blend of the astronaut and caveman:
• Astronaut: Fred is highly intelligent, scientifically brilliant, and forward-thinking. Her academic mind and problem-solving abilities make her a “modern” thinker, much like an astronaut who uses technology and intellect to navigate challenges.
• Caveman: At the same time, Fred has an innate strength and survival instinct, shown by her ability to endure five years in the brutal world of Pylea. This resilience speaks to the primal, instinctive side of her character.
The debate also foreshadows the emotional and thematic conflict of the episode. Fred’s “astronaut” side-her intellect and innovation-cannot save her from the ancient, primal force of Illyria, which represents something unstoppable and primordial, much like the caveman. The tragedy lies in how her advanced skills and knowledge are powerless against something raw and elemental.
Metaphorically, the debate mirrors the struggle between progress and the unrelenting, timeless forces of nature, which is central to Fred’s fate in this episode.
Acting doesn't better than this. Truly, one of the greatest episodes of TV I've ever seen, and one that stands the test of time.
It still rips me apart...
My one and only comfort is to remember the episode in S3 with the creepy thirsty transparent things that attacked the hotel, and one got in Fred. She didn't want to be taken to the hospital, she didn't want to let other people get hurt. She wouldn't have been able to live with herself if millions had died to save her.
My favorite character leaves, and new my favorite character enters.
Fred was one of my favorite characters from the beginning. Watching the show week to week, I conpletely became invested in every storyarc she was in. When she died, it nearly broke me. And when Illyria woke up...I prepared myself for the worst.
7:00- the most badass Wesley moment EVER! He just doesn't care...
I’m a glutton for punishment, these are two of my favourite episodes of the whole series. Amy and Alexis knock it out of the park.
My favourite story about this episode is that after filming the ending of this episode, Acker, Denisof and Whedon all went to a bar to share drinks, but thanks to the sheer emotional exhaustion they just nursed them in silence together knowing they were all in the same boat without a word. That moment would later inspire The Avengers Shwarma scene that Whedon also directed.
Also, Astronauts would win. As someone with anxiety, living in a constant state of fight or flight the way Cavemen do is crippling, they'd be terrified of space suits 😂 and yes, I'm only saying that because I'm still heartbroken that the Primal beat the Scientist in this episode all because she didn't have a weapon and they did. 😭💔
But I could talk about how damn good this episode is for hours. Your welcome was a celebration of this show, but this was Angels The body. It's a masterpiece of fighting the inevitable and preemptive grief. There's just something about how perfectly Lorne reacts to Fred singing that just sets the tone that this isn't going to have a happy ending. Maybe it's how much everyone around her loves her as a testament to how amazing she is, maybe it's the flashback to the start of her time in LA, maybe it's Lornes out of yet perfectly in character punch, the hint of Dark Wes coming back... Or maybe it's Fred fighting til the end because she's just not the type to be the damsel in distress.
The body and A hole in the world both leave me hurting and exhausted all these years later, as they do with all of us. I truly think they are both on par with each other.
This might be the best episode of Angel. Everything is on point here. The Fred/Westley relationship is right in the honeymoon phase. The Angel/Spike argument that is bleeding through to everyone in the office and ends up somehow a perfect metaphor for Fred (a scientist) fighting a bacteria (the caveman as it has no intellect) and the caveman wins.
Even Gunn gets to finally understand the price he ended up paying for his gift. While of course he would have give his life for it, it ends up being the one person on the team he would have given his life for.
I even like the Lorne aspects of the episode, showing even at some point he will get his hands dirty to protect those he loves. It also shows that likely Lorne saw her death or at least what was coming to her.
Also forgot to highlight how Amazing Amy nailed her sickness, the bad humor, her brain cooking causing her to forget or remember random information.
The performances are next level - so amazing to watch
The guy that plays Wesley is so good that "Somebody get medical" that he yelled, you could just feel that absolute panic in his voice.
Wasnt that Lorne?
@@jonreese7066 The captions say Wesley...
What a performance from Amy, maybe the best in the series.
Gunn has already killed for Fred and Wesley has kidnapped a baby for the greater good. This is not "out of charcater" for any of them.
Andy Hallett's expression when he turns on the stairs to face Fred after she sings, is just so perfect. He accomplishes so much in that split second shot, without saying anything. And it's heartbreaking.
Season 5 is one of my favorite seasons of the entire Buffyverse because of episodes like this, the emotional impacts of the things that happen on the characters and to the characters are incredible. The acting was awesome & Fred's scenes were phenomenal. I also loved that we've met someone else from Angel's past, not Angelus' but Angel's, as learning about the decades he lived with a soul before Sunnydale is always interesting.
Amy Acker made a short film with her husband during the pandemic called “Outside”. Written, directed, and produced by them. It’s worth a look.
23 seconds in and Dakara is talking about shoving her feelings down and carrying on.
Well, that's not happening today.
"Evil laugh intensifies"
Sad to see Fred go, it hurt a lot to lose her sweetness.
But now we get the unhinged madness that is Illyria.
Season 5 was the best Angel season albeit the most depressing towards the end. Such great acting. And the Angel/spike bickering. Awesome. It was worth rewatching even the hard episodes here. I feel like I’m watching with friends with you and the comment section : )
"Can we confirm that the dogs are okay" had me CACKLING! lmao!!!!
Eve sings 'Pretty as a Picture' from LA Song; which was wrote by Christian Kane (Lindsay) and Co Creator David Greenwalt for Season 2's 'Dead End'. Lindsay's last episode until his S5 return. The implication being that LA Song was wrote by Lindsay, and he taught it to his true Love Eve.
This is the last episode of the Buffyverse that Whedon Directed. He co-wrote the Series finale, but Showrunner Jeff Bell directed. Whedon was supposed to write and direct the previous episode Smile Time; but had to hand over to Edlund due to Serenity commitments. Not sure if Edlund would have done this episode instead.
I wonder if this was an attempt to redo S4's storyline better. Obviously Fred-Illyria is different to Cordelia-Cordlius-Jasmine; and the story is not the same, but the essential premise is similar. What really is this difference between a Hell God and a Old Demon.
Amy Acker is a fantastic actress. Just look at the different facets of Fred in this one episode & ending with becoming Illyria.
"There's a hole in the world. Feels like we ought to have known"
Had to be Fred didn't it ? Frikkin' Whedonverse. Said it before but i'll say it again - aside from the narrative itself, _the_ consolation of this for me is Amy Acker basically became a fixture of genre TV for the following 20 years and it's in _large_ part because this show, this _episode_ and what follows were essentially a show-reel for her incredible talent. And Alexis Denisof's no slouch either.
Easy to understand if your heart's not broken by this one - it's clearly made of stone :).
ohh this ep.. think it will make you cry... *HUGS*
😂🤣 The Legendary Battle of Caveman vs Astronaut's Never gets old!, It's a beautiful contract to what happens....:(
The song that Eve sings for Lorne is the same one Lindsey sang at Caritas in Season 2's "Dead End".
I just recently found out a bit about the history of the song Take Me Home, Country Roads. It was written by 3 people about a sign they misread as West Virginia. None of the 3 had been to West Virginia before the song.
Oh, it's *this* one... James is trying to avoid his American R. Remember in the Buffy pilot, Giles said, "This world is far older than anyone knows, and for untold eons, demons roamed the earth." Those are the demons we're talking about here. Anyway: farewell sweetest heart, hello oldest thing to ever walk the planet... and kudos to Amy for her impending portrayal.
Wow, this is a rough week for BuffyVerse Reactions. Here we have the passing of probably the sweetest (and among the loveliest) characters ever, and over on Nick Reacts, he just got to the episode when Tara gets shot at the end. Grim business all around. 😭
1:15 (Fred Flamethrower) I use this gif often, Fred is a Queen. 😻 (at the moment). 🥺
3:19 The chemistry between Angel and Spike could have carried this show for a decade (but I really like Bones, so I guess it is what it is).
FYI Amy asked Whedon for this as she felt she had come to the end of the road with Fred’s character and wanted to play something very different and more action oriented.
Do you have a source for that? The story I always heard was that Amy was killing it at Joss's weekend Shakespeare readings, and Joss realized they were underutilizing her acting chops on the show, so he created Illyria to give her more to do. And then if the show had gone on to season 6, the plan was to bring back Fred and have Illyria share her body, switching back and forth depending on the situation.
@@DudeLongcouchThis is what I've heard as well
@@DudeLongcouch I heard Joss say something like that in the DVD commentary.
COMICS SPOILERS
And Fred and Illyria sharing a body did eventually happen in the canonical comics. In Angel: After the Fall it only seemed to, but in Angel & Faith Season 10 it happened for real.
01:58 "I Love This Show" ... 05:34 "I Hate This Show" 🤣😱😭🤬
RIP Fred.
Let the tears begin.
Hell yes my favourite character in all of the Buffy verse
"I love this episode", "I love this show" you know that moment where the coyote first notices the shadow of the falling boulder?
I can't... Nick is reacting to "seeing red", you are watching this one.
Fred dying like this after everything she went through devastated me back when it first aired and the gut punch hasn't lost it's power since then. It's just so unfair and such a horrifying way to die. She deserved better but that's the Whedon way. Watch out for the moments when characters are happy, 'cause that's how he gets you
1:57 and 5:35 LMFAO
Oh Dakara, I felt for you when you expressed your excitement over a "Fred centric episode" and hoping Fred survives. Everyone was in denial that Fred was gone at the end of this episode. We thought there would be no way they would kill off a core character so soon after killing Cordy. Amy's line of "why can't I stay?" is so heart-wrenching no matter how many times you hear it.
People rioted when this episode aired.
She said she was down for a Fred-centric episode….😅
Fred was such a wonderful character. I’m curious to see what you think of Illyria. I love her. Can we appreciate that in all of the sadness we have the amazing scenes with Spike and Angel and their insane chemistry together?
Like to comment, but can't. Hurts to much.
In short Illyria is an old one a pure demon she was loved and hated there were many other pure demons in her time and they constantly fought each other it was a none stop war. Illyria had won many battles but she lost because she was betrayed she was to powerful that the other old ones teamed up and took her down. From there on out hybrids started to come in the mix half demon/half human like vampires they all originated from the pure old ones.
Big difference between Cordelia and Fred: What they did to Cordelia, they also did to the actress, Charisma Carpenter, and the two were related somehow. (Ms. Carpenter's pregnancy forced a rewrite, and a severe limitation in how her character could be used.) Whereas what they did to Freddles actually enhanced Amy Acker's acting chops, and allowed her to portray a much larger range of skills and emotions than she could with Miss Burkle.
Had they cut the ending a few seconds earlier, your reaction would be as devastated as the endings of _I Was Made to Love You,_ and _Wild at Heart._ But they added those few seconds, and suddenly your tears are gone, you sit forward in your chair, and "What?" you're demanding to see the next episode post-haste.
Thanks, Dakara. Oh, by the way, are you anywhere near the Cotswolds? Is there any particular reason (that you might know of) the writers placed the Deeper Well in the Cotswolds rather than in Scotland, or Northern Europe, or anywhere else?
When people are happy in a Whedon show, alarm bells should be blaring.
"I love this show" 30 seconds later: "I hate this show" 😂 Seriously though the writers were so good at making the viewer care about the characters. I loved Fred. This episode crushed me ❤
Fred was very possibly my favorite character. To watch her going through this was awful.
24:25 "[Gunn] has then killed for Fred"
Not for the first time, either!
Can I just point out that Gunn did NOT know that Fred was in any danger by signing a piece of paper, something a man in his position does every day
Deals are for the Devil.
Love the shirt today. Who's it by?
According to DVD commentaries, it was Amy Acker herself who thought that her character has nothing new to offer (for her as an actress), after S4, and asked that they kill Fred off during S5. Well, I can't say for sure if she was right, but what we got with her acting in this episode, and for the rest of the season makes me think she probably was.
Oh. This one. Props to Amy Acker's acting talent and I'm glad she got to show off her chops, but sacrificing Fred for it? No. Just...no.
This episode broke me the first time I watched it. More than any other Buffyverse episode, which is saying something. When everyone rallied up to save her I knew she was doomed.
Darka is right that it seems espwcially cruel after what happened to Cordelia, yet somehow how they handle this is borh better and worse than what they did with Cordy. We can say goodbye to Cordy knowing there is an afterlife and the powers that be are on her side, but Fred....
The thing is, I'm positive soulless Spike would have saved Fred without a second thought.
Sometimes, a hero will sacrifice their love to save the world, but a villain will always sacrifice the world to save their love.
ALL HAIL ILLYRIA! GODKING OF THE PRIMORDIUM!
To this day I argue if Angel had known Angel could have brought Fred and the coffin to the Deeper Well and use it to draw Illyria out early Fred could have been saved with zero casualties
Why would you think zero casualties when it is literally spelled out that doing that would "infect" everyone along the path?
@@paulonius42 No, they are probably right. The explanation was that it would infect everyone between Illyria and the Well. If Fred was in the Well, there would be nothing in between. No guarantee that they could have gotten Fred there in time, but still.
@plothole181 I can see that logic, but I'm not sure it works. Drogyn said that taking the sarcophagus from Wolfram & Hart to the Well would affect everybody in between. Knox says he had it shipped to Wolfram and Hart because it had to be opened there, aligned with where her kingdom had been (continents moved, etc), so I'm pretty sure Drogyn is saying that moving it from where it had to be opened to the Well would kill all those people.
Honestly I have always thought it was like there was a button and wherever Illyria is the planet it would suck her back (sarcophagus be damned). However, I have never before thought about the suggested solution before one way or another, it just kinda makes sense when I look at it. @paulonius42
@@paulonius42 my logic was bring Illyria/Fred and the coffin to the deeper well and open it there.
your saying the coffin can only be openned at the location of Wolfram and Hart. I dont think that is the case. its the well thats doing the dragging
There it is! The worst ending for the most innocent character on the show, maybe the entire Buffyverse.
At least it was a great opportunity for Amy to show a total different side of her acting skills.
R.I.P. Winifred Burkle 🖤
I was born in a city named Elyria, Ohio.
Illyria (Greek Ἰλλυρία) was the western part of the Balkan, and many people and places have since been named after it. Elyria, Ohio, combines it with the name of the town's founder, Hemen Ely from the 1800s.
@@theadamabrams I already knew all of that except Heman Ely named the city after himself and it had nothing to do with Illyria.
Commenting for the algorithm
Ok lets get the small bit of comedy out the way first, the hilarious scene with Angel and Spike arguing about the fight between the Caveman and Astronaut is just like in Men Behaving Badly with Gary and Tony arguing about who would win a fight between a squirrel and a rat, one of those pointless arguments men sometimes have. I have to say all of the deaths in The Buffyverse this is one of the worst. To lose such gentle a character in this way is awful, what really got me at the time was the look of absolute horror on Lorne's face when Fred began to sing. 'A Hole In The World' was the cruelest of episodes. Of all the romantic relationships in The Buffyverse the Fred/Wesley one was possibly the purest of them all. Fred dying in absolute agony In Wesley's arms, after the strange blue creature emerges ( she is not named yet of course, except when Wesley is explaining about the sarcophagus ) we still see great acting from Amy Acker, but Wesley now has the pain of his happiness snatched away from him after only just attaining what he always wanted. I think this is an episode that fans don't like, not because it isn't a brilliant episode, which it is, but because it was a watershed, Fred no longer with us, but the emergence of the strange blue character Illyria from her, adds incredible power to the show. It's just so sad that Fresley only enjoyed minutes of pure happiness in their lives. I believe this to be the most tragic of all Buffyverse relationships. This is one the best episodes from either show, the acting is off the charts.
I am surprised that there was no reaction to Angels comment about having two heros didn't get a reaction, but I suppose you were a little distracted.
Still down for a Fred centric episode?
Makes you get impression that Joss Whedon doesn't like women or something...hmmm...