Alpine's Engine Problems in F1 and Le Mans - How can they fix that?
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Let's take a closer look at the dufficult engine situation at Alpine in their F1 and Le Mans project!
What is the background of their F1 engine development?
How did they get into the difficult spot they are in right now?
Why does their Le Mans project have significant problems as well?
And how can they fix both situations?
Let me know your thoughts in the comments below and check out my other videos for more!
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You know, Alpine should break their contract with Mecachrome, and ask Pipo Moteurs for a new engine. Glickenhaus did so and turns out it was the most reliable engine in the field (even if it was slightly oversized due to late regulation changes), so they seem like a competent French company for endurance
Ok and in F1?
@@fqeagles21 in F1, ditch the program altogether, it's too late to save it
@@victoralcaide6313 mm we'll see
Mecachrome have a deal to assemble the Alpine F1 engine and test bench it according to their site.
sell f1 to new entry @@fqeagles21
In my opinion the problem is almost certainly due to bad management practices. To a fault; the story has never been: Renault engineers fucked up and made a bad design decision, but: renault engineers not capable of fully developing the engine due to a lack of resources.
Watching the video I get a feeling of higher management ($$$) not really understanding the tech/how you need to run such a program and/or they are micromanaging.
All too common in today’s businesses.
The whole story is rather embarrassing in many different ways.
Alpine runs a smaller engine than other competitors, however in IMSA the WTR Acura ARX-06 is running an even smaller engine than Alpine/Mecacchrome, that one is 2.4L and the chassis is the same, so for sure there must be even more fundamental issues within the Mecacchrome's engine.
that mechacrome engine is a mess in F2 when it comes to reliability, so yeah using it for endurance just seems like a deathwish
The Peugeot 9X8 Hypercar is using a 2.6L turbo V6, so even Renault's main rivals are doing better.
The main difference being Renault is starting with a borrowed 2H sprint engine and trying to make that last 24H. Peugeot did it properly and built an actual endurance engine themselves.
Honestly not a bad idea to become a customer team, pride aside.
Their chassis/aero has been pretty good for a while, if they can manage P4/P5 in the constructors with a 20HP power deficit they can probably gain a couple of positions with a better, more reliable enegine.
They are a customer team in WEC and they're still bad.
@@KAMiKAZOWNo they're not? What are u watching? Do you even know what customer teams are in WEC?
@@sakuya1185 The video (that you clearly did not watch) spells out that Alpine is a customer of Mecachrome F2 engines. From context it is 100% clear that I meant team that's customer of a 3rd party engine rather than a privateer team like Jota.
@@KAMiKAZOW I clearly watched the video.
Claiming I did not watch the video? You have zero shame and the fact that you didn't even APOLOGIZE for your horrible speech construction just baffles me. You did NOT elaborate AND you insult me (with the intention based on the parenthesis) for your own missing "pieces" on your "based on context" blabbering. The context I'm getting behind your replies are your horrible indication of context due to speech construction. Good day.
@@KAMiKAZOW Also, there's no such thing as "engine customer team" and BASED ON CONTEXT, there are only: Factory, Factory-backed Privateers, and non-backed Privateers.
Their Lmdh car should use a Gtr engine from Nissan. Easy power, reliable(road car engine),cheap to maintain and can be modified(lightened)for race use. (Like Porsche, Ferrari)
The F1 team should use an alternative engine and use the PU development centre for R&D in battery and motor technologies for road cars or alternative sources.
Renault aren't strangers to using Nissan engines in their race car projects; the V6 Megane Trophy used the 350Z's VQ35DE, and the RS01 (Which was based on LMP1 underpinnings I might add) used the VR38DETT from the GT-R, so Renault should be familiar with the architecture.
Even if they can't use the VR38DETT, Nissan already has a proven Sports Prototype engine available; the VRX30A 3-Litre Twin Turbo V6 used in both Nissan's GT-R LM Nismo LMP1 and the ByKolles CLM P1/01. The VRX30A may never have achieved any major race results but the VRX30A never suffered an engine failure in its entire LMP1 racing campaign.All of its DNFs came from collisions and failures from other parts of the cars they were fitted to.
@@legoferrari14 The problem with VRX30A is that it is only rated for around 500 BHP power output, way lower than Hypercar's 700 BHP requirement
The old Nissan DPi from 2017-2019 had the GTR engine and it won Petit Le Mans 2017 and Sebring 2018.
That's not an easy question to answear, since this is the result of the mistakes that Renault/Alpine accumulated over the time, and how do you fix a long term mistake like this? The entire work culture inside Alpine need to change, and this will take time and money, so for now I think they should step out from motorsport until regulations are loosen enough for engine designs and start all over again, and in the meantime focus in revamping their road cars lineup. It is an embarassement, but it's better than admiting "we have a weak and unreliable engine and we don't know what to do."
So is it better for Alpine to pull the plug on WEC and F1 altogether and break contract with Mecachrome, all in favor of Formula E? Or maybe Mercedes-AMG would see this as an opportunity to refine their old reliable M159 racing V8 NA engine to accommodate LMH ruleset with in-house AMG E-Performance hybrid system reworked for more reliability and endurance WEC needs?
@@jimmyjiang3413WEC is still salvageable, they have an okay car, just a shit engine and there are several choices for that, like the Gibson in LMP2 or Nissan
@@Karozy4869 so why not use a more reliable engine from Nissan GT-R R35 GT3 engine?
I feel like Renault-Alpine are secretly planning to pull out of all ICE related motorsports to focus entirely on EV related motorsports. The fact that they are not willing to spend as much money on their motorsports projects as their competitors leads me to think this. They (along with maybe other companies like Jaguar) want to appeal to a new crowd of motorsports fans to sell their EVs which is why they are doing as little as possible to appeal to the current crowd.
@@CyanRooper they're already forced to chase then, Mahindra like Ferrari is present in that Formula from the start and Jaguar swore loyalty for the whole upcoming Gen4 and has a competitive package after years of lurking in the back.
They don't care abut motorsport, they care about 'being associated with it'. Exactly one of the excuses Andretti has been kept out with.
Mecachrome has had close to 30 years of failure in racing, F3 and F2 engines die at about every race or many in a race. The F1 and WEC engines underperform and blow-up all too often. Why are the FIA and Alpine still contracting them all the time? It's Renault Alpine's fault for sticking with one company and expecting different results. That would also be the definition of insanity...
Man.. Piastri and Alonso dodged a one hell of a bullet
Meanwhile both Peugeot finished Le Mans with their 2.6L V6 turbo 👀
That and Ferrari won with a 3.0 V6 based on a road car engine. I’m not sure what excuse Mecachrome has.
@@lkyksb3lazyness repurposing an engine designed to endure less than 2h of flat out racing to last from 6h to 24h, I don't know if they made that choice or Renault being a cheap a$$ chose that!
Lol, Isotta Fraschini finished the race, and I don't even know a thing about their car beside it is a LMH
Only produces 450HP. The rest is produce by the awd hybrid. Alpine V6 has to produce at a maximum 630HP and is therefore more stressed. Still. Acura gets 630 from its 2.4 V6 revving at nearly 10k in IMSA and hasn’t had a single engine problem.
@@goodtimeblimpAfaik the LMH cars have to compensate for the loss of electric power each time the battery runs out, which is about 270 hp.
To prove that Alpine isnt even thinking and just of bloated corporate zombies, they could have used the WEC to develop F1 engine , especially the 2026 engine. I would take a dallara chassis to keep cost and down and focus money on engine development
It's too expensive and undertaking. I think that's the issue. There's very little RoI to do that and run that in WEC for F1. It's much easier to trickle down from F1 than WEC to F1. WEC has the kind of reliability performance demands that F1 don't. F1 reliability demands aren't as big and therefore performance is a greater focus.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks They could use the F1 cylinder design in a 3.2L single turbo V12 engine perhaps? But at half the stress or less, Renault may not learn much.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks i would dissagree with the reliability point. Even tho WEC has less races that are longer there may be a same drive time as F1 races all together,since F1 team have only number of engine they can use.If you build reliable engine that can stay at 100% in WEC races it would help you in F1 since you would also improve reliability there..imo ofcourse
Thank you for the video! One of the best channels!
Renault used to be so good at engines. In the 90s you basically needed one if you wanted to win. Guess they fell off technically across the board.
Pipo is one good option, Gibson also. Although, the need to adapt their V8 for the regulation.
Can't see Gibson working on an Turbo engine for F1 seeing that they've never done a force induction engine. Also they're Brittish.
Seeing a French company close their engine factory and asking a Brittish company to develop a new engine for them... That would be twisting the knife a couple extra turns.
Pipo is famous for rally engines but they have done the one in glickenhaus and that was not bad
Top Gear just made a video about HWA, the company that developed Isotta's power unit. Alpine should go there begging for a new engine.
Champagne taste, lemonade money.
or as I was taught: whisky man's taste, beer man's income. 🤣
1:43 and notice Carlos Tavares right there
Quality video as always
Peugeot has a 2.6L V6 that can easily get BoP power, just like Honda's 2.4L, Ferrari's 3.0L, Isotta's HWA 3.0L and Toyota's 3.5L. The Alpine 3.4L isn't an issue, it's just that they didn't design it properly.
By properly, they didn't design it at all? They just took an existing F2 engine because it was cheap, tweaked it a bit and hoped for the best even though it never finished a 24 hour test without breaking before Le Mans?
@@TassieLorenzoI suppose they want everything made by french from chassis to engine with more tighten budget
introduce the good old nissan VR38 engine.
Outsource engines
The capacity of the alpine lmdh car isn't even the issue. Ferrari has a 2.9 litre engine, and they've won 2 years running
It’s tricky having sacked all of the Enstone management and replaced them with the former French Viry engine manager. To turnaround and then drop the engine supply makes no sense, unless they plan to sell the team?
So ganz stimmt die Info zu den Jahren 1998 bis 2000 nicht. Mecachrome hat den Motor wie vorher weitergebaut und Renault hat den Motor weiterentwickelt, wenn auch nur auf Sparflamme. Die Franzosen führen mal besser mal eine Open mind Kultur ein. Am besten bei anderen schauen, was die so machen und Top Personal verpflichten. Mit der Einstellung man wäre am besten und mache keine Fehler, kommt man nicht weit. In der Zeit von 2003 bis 2007 gab es z.B. ein Enstone Engine Team, welches einen deutlichen Beitrag zum Erfolg in den Jahren beigetragen hat.
Maybe bring Flavio back... this did help before
I kept thought you were saying "ouioui engine" 😭😭😭
Use the V8 engine for the LMDH car
Call Lake Speed Jr.
mecachromed
Hire some country kid from Illinois that tuned his clapped out 06 Silverado that sends rods to the moon every 2 weeks. He will easily gain Alpine that 25bhp
Renault should run away from all motorsports right now.
The sooner they f off, the sooner they can return refreshed.
New plan, new team, new ethos,
Just run DFV, it's probably the safest option for them 😂
i blame f1.. they've made it impossible for teams to recover if they get the regulation changes wrong.. two teams have dominated last 14 years in f1.. clearly the current way doesn't deliver on the racing
That's demonstrably untrue on both the engine (e.g., Honda) and chassis (e.g., Mclaren).
When you go cheap on investment - you get cheap crap results. It’s common sense.
The only way to fix it is to pull out of motorsports and pray that people keep buying their road cars.
Why didn't you answer how to fix their issue? 😬
Was he a powertrain engineer? I though he was aero.
I watched this because I thought you were going to give answers to the question in the title, not just ask your viewers to put their answers in the comments. Bye....
Renault should do what they do best, exit F1 then come back after 7 or more years later. Just sell to Andretti already!...
ALPINE should use Cadillac engines
Nissan would make more sense. Renault owns a stake in nissan, and the VR38DETT would be a great choice with some minor endurance modifications and some weight reduction. There's also the VRX30A, although it wasn't a very competitive engine, but that could probably be resolved with some reworking of the hybrid system.
For the formula 1 side though, should just sell the team to Andretti. They're too far gone
@@modezityyy I don't think Renault owns Nissan judging by the controversy with the Nissan CEO ghosn..
The Japanese double cross renault and would not honor their contract
@TheSwanlake2009 Renault owns about 44% of Nissan so they do have some control over what happens, but yeah, Nissan and Renault aren't on the best of terms, so there might be a difficulty in getting the green light to use Nissans engines in their endurance car.
Edit: after doing a little googling Renault actually put some of it stake in a French trust so they do have less power than they had before over Nissan.
I mean they r racing under alpine name so they can buy engine form someone else, I don't think it's that big of blow for time being
Also b sport completely forgot about thier championship in 05/6 and thier good venture during Alonso time
All they need is an engine that will earn them TV time. “Winning” is held up as the final goal but for many fans, seeing the Alpine cars able to FIGHT would be a huge step in the right direction.
If i remember correctly Renault was the first to come up with the pneumatic valve system and supplied it exclusively to Williams(???). They were the best engine on the grid at the time. I suggest that Renault stop screwing around by trying to save $$$. Throw them at the projects and prove to people that they can build an engine. If they fail at F1 and WEC at this point it could affect their production car sales. They need to give the teams the resources and stop management meddling if they want to improve.
The fundamental problem with Renault now Alpine is the continual lack of investment.The board views Alpine and F1 overall as a marketing exercise.They do not appear to see any value in winning.The best solution would be for the team to be purchased by any team that wants to enter F1 and has been denied entry.
But Renault don't make performance cars and Alpine are a tiny brand, do they really have much to lose by shutting down the engine program? Yes it's embarrassing but mostly in F1 circles, I don't think it will affect their sales, especially if they can build a competitive chassis around a good rented engine
Renault does make hot hatches, though, and Alpine does make one sports car: the A110 (I wish they would bring back the A310 by basically putting a new body on the Nissan Z). I think they just don't have any interest left in internal combustion engine powered race cars or hybrid race cars and instead want to focus on EVs and be among the first to successfully use EV motorsports to sell their EV road cars.
As i said to my friend, replace the mecachrome with older but more reliable gibson v8 is a better idea, that 4.2/ 4.5 v8 has a long racing history, it should work anyways.
I got it! They should buy the Red Bull team with drivers and everything! Instant success :)
I don't know much about f1's management so I won't comment too much on that. However, for the alpine a424 for le mans... I personally don't think that using a 3.4L V6 turbocharged engine is disadvantageous in a sense that you need to run higher boost to obtain the necessary power target, it's only about 670-700 HP and teams like toyota, ferrari, even isotta franschini are running engines with similar capacity and configuration and are doing fine. Even Peugeot runs the engine at a much lower capacity at 2.6L, or you have acura arx-06 in IMSA running a 2.4L engine(which can rev up to 10,000 RPM). All these examples tells me that the engine capacity being small does not compromise reliability in a long 24 hours race even if boost is turned up. However, what I do think went wrong is probably alpine endurance team didn't properly maintain the engine in between races(like the engine is definitely reliable enough to last through long races, take qatar 1812 km for example). I think they don't necessarily have to swap their LMDH car engines, but they can still improve the reliability, otherwise, they can tune it by increasing the bore or stroke length just to lower boost pressure by a little bit.
If they stop building F1 engines, couldn't they insist on Honda units?
Honda will have no customers in 2026 with manufacturing capacity for two teams.
Sounds like a win win situation to me.
700 hp from a 3.4 liter engine shouldn’t be a problem. Many other manufacturers are running more with less capacity
there is a French sounding company that wants to join F1 in 2026, maybe this could be more fuel to the fire on the Andretti entry?
The CEO's of the company are in F1 to increase share prices. Shares that increase in price increases profits for shareholders. Renault is not in F1 and WEC for racing - the Renault company is in F1 and WEC for profits
yes, but if they look like buffoons on the international stage, it's kinda hard to profit.
@@AleksisA88 The FiA is as corrupt as all the governments, so instead of embezzling, it's simply 'donated' or 'invested'
For me, if Alpine being unreliable again like IF does in somewhat bigger trouble, better make them pull the plug from WEC and F1 altogether in favor of Formula E and E-GT respectively. Maybe who shall fill the void? Maybe it shall be time for Mercedes-AMG to reconsider sports car racing program as a works team again due to cost cap in F1. Due to expertise in its in-house E-Performance racing hybrid system, it would be nice for AMG to join Le Mans Hypercar reg. Making a second generation AMG One better fitting LMH ruleset, albeit 6.2L NA M159 racing engine or 4.0T M178LS2 engine in lieu of F1 engine, with modified hybrid system focusing tuning on reliability and endurance Le Mans needs :)
This is what I was thinking as well. Maybe the higher ups at Renault-Alpine want to focus entirely on EV related motorsports which is why they don't want to spend as much money as their competitors in the ICE or hybrid related motorsports. I think they should just pull out of WEC if that is the case and replace the Alpine team with a Nissan team instead since the next generation GTR is rumoured to be a hybrid so it would be a good bit of advertisement for the brand.
If alpine and renault want to win,I believe yours is the right option, don't exclude etcr and extreme E (H version coming later); another maker to fill that gap as said earlier would be Toyota who are long absent from F1,also consider Nissan returning to WEC earlier and Make upstart racing teams (buying manufacturer engines) and competing ,such slot was supposed to be filled by Veloqx but they went silent
What I find interesting on the Alpine A424 has the same or similar wing endplates as the Cadillac V-Series.R
Renault are terrrible at marketing.
I don't consider the 90's Williams to be Renault powered.
Now they are screwing themselves again
it seems like a very bad idea to look to red bull-ford for the new engine regulations. beyond that it would be an embarrassment to ditch their engine program, the outlook on red bull-ford power units is uncertain. to me it seems like an easy choice: develop the 2026 engine inhouse. it is a fresh start with a less complex derivative of the current power unit that renault already has experience with. if red bull-ford fails, renault would be very well poised to capture a few new customer teams as mercedes and ferrari already have their plates full.
just sold the whole thing to Andretti.
i You like your opinion too?!
Wasn't Alpine's 2022 F1 engine on par with the others (or close enough) in terms of power but very unreliable, and the only reliability improvements to be found for 2023 involved reducing power?
The main issue was something to do with the waterpump. Maybe they made a very light pump to reduce parasitic losses and the stronger new one cut that advantage back. But I think there's more at play there.
The main problem here is the histroic link between Renault and Alpine. We're not talking about 3 or 4 years working together, but decades. Separating them would be extremely hard and shocking, and Alpine would suffer a major blow on its image as a car manufacturer.
Now, about the problems we see, it seems Renault were 2 years behind in 2014. They were focused on 2013 without looking on the future, and they paid a high price after that. The engine wasn't that bad from 2018 to 2020, but the rift with Ferrari and Mercedes was quite huge though. And how they've operate the new rules in 2022...
To solve this, they have to work on new process, new standards of conception, production and tests. What do I mean by that?
First of all, they have to extract as more power as they can, the higher the better, while enhancing their strengths, such as fuel consumption, or the operationnal range of the engine. They were known for these feats, they have to keep this, as it could work well for the balance of the car.
On production and tests, they have to work with a higher quality, ensuring that they can find new ways to enhance the reliability without damaging the performance. For example, on the engine bench tests, we always see an engine analysed without and cover above. It could be interesting to do the opposite. Using the engine cover, it means the engine is in a higher temperature model, while the vibrations and the acoustic waves goes around, acting as well on the cover, as the engine, where it could strain the materials. More data would be analyzed by this process, helping the conception team in its work.
I don't think that Renault is unable to produce a reliable high-end performing engine, but they have to include some new blood in their conception department, on the structure and material field. For example, Ferrari hired Wolf Zimmermann, in order to work for the next gen engine. So if Alpine wants to fight back, they have to act now, fast and well.