maybe, instead of 5,000 a year now 3000 plus inflation 3,500, wow what a save. i owned a PHEV for which i was paying 1300 insurancebecause it was electric. i traded it in to buy a vw atlas R LINE a beautiful vehicle worth 55,000 dollars, INsurance rate 800 dollars. once the time comes to replace your ev, it will be worthless, why6 nobody will want it, so you will have lost 50,000 in 5 years and saved nothing and haqve nothing left to buy a new car , your loss considering you are buying a new one could be astronomus.
The insurance companies have to pay a lot for fender benders now because there's cameras and electronics equipment in everyone's bumper, EV or not, so I've heard.
@@art333-dg8ddWhy would your VW be worth 20k when companies make $10k EV's and we will get them en masse in a couple years. People would rather buy a brand new car.
8:05 Not here in the States, Tesla battery pack are outrageously priced. People here are selling their cars rather than buying batteries. That's why you see so many Teslas on used car lots
One will ALWAYS get 1/2 range of 60kWh pack from 30kWh pack, all other being equal, pay attention! Maybe 120kWh pack will cost the same in 8 years as 60kWh pack costs now, then you can get double range for the same price, but NEVER for the same capacity.
I think what Sam should have said here is that if the energy density doubles over time, your new 60kWh battery will take up only half as much space (or be half as heavy) as the old 60kWh battery, so you could theoretically cram a 120kWh battery into the space left by the old 60kWh battery, thereby doubling the range.
but…… a 60 kWh pack would likely be a lot lighter than the original, so you would get weight saving and therefore more range from the same capacity pack. buy yes, he got it wrong.
@@kiddster2112 There is no basis for hope that energy density of Li-Ion batteries will double any time soon. It didn't change much in the last 30 years. Li-Ion is not a new technology. Other chemistries are even worse in this or other aspect or only work in the lab.
Electrician here: An EVs range is mostly determined by the kWhr size of the battery pack, total vehicles weight, expected speed, and drag ratio. The average EV battery pack is 25% of the total vehicle weight, so if an older 60 kWhr battery pack is replaced with another 60 kWhr pack that weighs 20% less than the original pack, then the overall vehicle weight will only decrease by ~5%. This would only add a small amount of range. Or one could go with a slightly smaller pack to achieve the same range, BUT NOT A 35 kWhr battery. It would have to be around 50-55 kWhrs to achieve the same range. I suspect most people would want to have a larger pack that would increase range rather than a smaller pack that kept the range the same.
I think most people would want slightly more range in a slightly smaller, modestly less expensive pack. They don't need 500 or even 400 mile range. 320m to 360m would be great if the car is $30,000 instead of $42,000.
@@macmcleod1188 Agree. Ultimately, the markets will decide. When people have a choice, it will be interesting to see which way they go. Same weight, more miles, same cost. Or less weight, less miles, less cost.
lower priced BEV's would fill a niche of a 2nd car that is used to commute or run errands. It will not need long range so can have a smaller battery. Less range, less performance, less costs.
Yeah, this is one of his best videos.... Except for the mistake he made about the price of old batteries. I hope he corrects and re-uploads. Really, this video answers one of the biggest criticisms EV trashers have.
7:42 If your car has as 60 kWh battery pack, you will always need a 60 kWh battery pack to get the same amount of range. You will not get more range from a 60 kWh pack no matter the battery density because efficiency is the same for the vehicle. However, if battery density is 2x, then you can put a 120 kWh battery in the same pack size and that will increase your range.
That is not true. Example: If your current 60 kwh battery pack has an energy density of 150 wh/kg then the weight would be 882 pounds. In the future if you replace the 60 kwh pack with one that has an energy density of 500 wh/kg then the battery weight would only be 265 pounds. That is a substantial weight decrease of 617 pounds. Just the battery weight reduction alone (not to mention the possibility of shaving additional weight off brakes, suspension, frame etc). would result in greater range. So you could choose to replace the old battery with the new 60 kwh pack for more range or go with a new 50-55 kwh pack to maintain the same range as you had with your old 150 wh/kg pack.
@@skipondowntheroad5833 You're talking about more than 3x battery density to have a 5-10 kWh smaller pack. He said 35 kWh pack for the same range or same size battery pack with double the range.
I'll bet out of warranty EV battery replacements are very rare. I'd like to see numbers on that. There are millions of them now and I just don't hear many cases of battery replacements. It would also be interesting to know how much it costs to replace a hybrid or PHEV battery.
No, $10,000/kg. Basically, you trade in your old 40kWh Leaf battery and at 195Wh/kg the recycling company pays you just over $2 million to take it off your hands. It's a similar principle to the magic silver balls video the other day. You set them up in a room full of ambient light and generate the same amount of power as a small nuclear power station.
@@hardi.howdy.983 Not really. He puts out like 5 videos per day, so he doesn't have much time to proofread his script, if he even has one. The info is normally very good, but yeah, proofreading is needed.
Recently, in Canada, 2 Hyundais needed batteries out of warranty. Installed price was $60,000 each. That would buy quite a bit of gasoline. Also, I have read of older batteries not being in production. So no price is available.
We already have a company here in the UK (Cleeverly EV) who are willing to insure a Tesla battery after the 8 year warranty has expired. They can also remotely check your battery's condition on a Tesla for £60. Handy if your considering buying a used Tesla Remember we are still in the early stages of electric cars and their batteries. Everything is just going to get better and better owning an electric car.
Dude .. a replacement battery will need to be about the same kWh rating. Your observation of how density is going up .. saving some weight is valid .. but since the car’s suspension was designed for the origional weight, it would need to stay the same. Now .. of course the point is moot since BEV batteries outlast the car anyway.
congrats! The battery pack of my 2022 BEV has been replaced just a few weeks ago on warranty. Meanwhile, the lead acid battery in my ice car is still doing its thing.
That's good but I have seen a youtube video where they talk about motor seals which fail in Tesla's (a fair number of times) and then coolant gets into the motor where it shouldn't and the repair costs are as much as maybe changing an engine or transmission in an ICE car. That's kind of scary. I would hate to have that kind of repair bill. Especially if they're not fixing a problem that they know they have.
@@MrSteeDoo it's a flawed logic, as this contributes to the misery index because people are not that good at making smart financial decisions and end up taking on more debt that they can handle, which then causes them to lose their Teslas due to getting it repossessed or sold for way cheaper on secondary markets, all which eventually will affect the sales of new Teslas. Also, there are many more people who are willing to pay a fair price, and I would say that a starting price of 35K for a model Y (before any incentives or government credits) would be a fair price. You don't want to sell something to someone to make them an ill addict, you want to sell people stuff that makes them better and healthier people, does this all make sense to you?
batteries are consumables. And there are no universal batteries for cars (unlike in the BEV RC World). So basically you get the car for "free" and you just pay the battery. Much like Inkjet printers.
@@svr5423 Not really. The ink in an inkjet printer must be replenished regularly and you pay through the nose for it if you buy OEM ink. An EV batery will now outlast the car.
@@rogerphelps9939 that doesn't speak for the BEV cars if they don't outlast a battery :). It's like android phones, by the time the battery dies it's completely outdated and useless anyway.
Black mass is $10000/kg? So if I can get 10 kg of BM from my 500 kg battery it’s worth $100 000?? Something is not right here. What am I missing? Even if I could get 4 kg of BM from a Leaf battery, it would make sense to me to go buy all the Leafs on the planet and drive them to a recycling facility.
7:40 HUH??? If I have a 60 kWh battery today, I only need a 35 kWh replacement battery in 2035 for the same range?? Science à la Sam the Electric Viking... ;)
He's said things like this before. It's like he thinks halving the weight of the battery doubles the range of the car. Obviously the lighter battery will help with the watts per mile/km, but probably by like 10 or 15%. It's not going to halve your power consumption.
More likely you’d get a 120kWh battery with the same dimensions and mass having double the energy density ergo twice the range at possibly half the price?
The prices do not reflect this study. $13,000 for the model 3 $14,000 for the model X and between $13,000 and $20,000 for the S. As of June 2024 from JD Power.
@@dzcav3 I love how someone keeps pulling my posts down when I post something from MGUY Australia ua-cam.com/video/jbLWZSp4va8/v-deo.htmlsi=9AGXNU6uPM0-88G9 Used EVs unable to sell. In Canada people are selling ten year old teslas with 400,000 kms, but the batteries have been replaced as has the suspension and they are in need of wiring work or even body panels and glass need to be replaced. And they are being sold for $30,000 or more.
@@dzcav3 I went on auto trader Canada to see the highest mileage Tesla. A guy in Quebec has a near 400,000 km Model S and he has already replaced the whole battery, he doesn’t say when but he also replaced the battery cooling system, the whole suspension system and it needs a new door with wiring harness and a couple of windows, including the back glass need to be replaced because of cracks. He is asking $34,000. There are other people who have done the exact same repairs and are trying to sell them for the same price. They are so not worth it especially since no one will tell you when they replaced the battery packs. And just so people understand a windshield for a model 3 out of pocket is $2000, so a windshield for a Model S would be just as expensive and a back window would be about the same. So owning a used EV without a warranty is a financial deathwish. And anyone buying a used EV especially a cheap well ragged out one for that price is an idiot.
Manufacturers dont replace a faulty battery under warrenty with a new battery, in most cases. It is replaced with a rebuilt battery pack which have much higher failure rates than new packs or even packs of the same of the same age.
7:08 Sam, I don’t follow a higher density battery pack can have a smaller capacity ie from 60kW to 35kW, driving the same load. Though, I get it that the pack size is smaller while battery capacity stays the same. 60kW in your example.
Agree. I heard same in multiple videos. If you have 60KWH battery you will always need a 60KWH battery for the same range. When energy density is higher, volume and weight of the battery will be lower.
Glut of batteries are because BEV production has dropped significantly. Prices have dropped because they are trying to shift them as demand declines..! Battery plants are being deferred ..!
You can't assume that a company is going to make a battery that is cheaper for an older car in the future when the battery energy density is higher. Much of this is going to depend on how popular the car is at the time it was made and whether or not tons of people bought it which then will determine if other companies will want to make a replacement battery.
Sam - You got a little mixed up on the energy density as 30 kWh is 30 kWh regardless of the density. My Nissan Leaf for example has a 24 kWh battery which weighs around 600 lbs so if I replace it with a new pack where the weight of 1 kWh is half of what it was in the original then the replacement 24 kWh battery will weigh around 300 lbs and I might see a modest increase in range due to it weighing 300 lbs less than the original battery. If I replace it with a battery that weighs around 600 lbs then I might end up with about 50 kWh and around twice the range from a battery that weighs the same as the original 24 kWh battery. Worn out ICE engines are not worthless unless the block is cracked, has a hole blown through it or similar catastrophic damage has occurred otherwise it generally has a Core Value of around $500 +\- for gasoline engines and around $1,000 +\- for diesel engines. Even with catastrophic damage its still has a value based on the current price per pound of scrap iron with mixed metals. Best!
💥 💥💥💥 Do a video on recycling ♻️ EV battery’s ! And reusing them. Australia focused please. Great video. Have a Tesla. First one arriving in Australia. Figuring out how to convert old battery to solar battery.
The prices of commodities is so volatile that it's very difficult for providers to regulate the prices. And every time they find a significant source of the components for manufacture it causes pressures from the market that are artificial to the actual cost of recovery. 😮
I don't know how you can say the battery prices have gone down. My colleague here in Las Vegas had to replace his model s battery it is 10 years old he had to pay $14,000 and has to wait 3 weeks. Nope I don't think they're going down. By the way his car only had 50,000 mi on it in 10 years
We need the price of home storage batteries to really come do own now. That would really jump start, no archaic term in the EV age. That would really turbo charge…no, another term for buggy whip, archaic technology. That would speed up home electrification, EV adoption, the phase out of gas yard tools, etc. Right now, home batteries have an installed cost of $800 to well over $1,000 per kWh. When home battery storage drops below an installed cost of $100 per kWh, then the corrupt gas and electricity cartels will be disrupted!
In Aus Mitsubishi 10 yrs, Honda 8 yrs n Kia 7 yrs all with unlimited mileage. We also don't have to go to the dealership for servicing, any registered mechanic can do warranty work.
Manufacturers don't give an 8 year warranty if they think it's likely to fail within that time frame. I'd happily assume you'd get 10 - 15 years. BYD says likely 20-25 years of current batteries and newer tech probably extends that. Very few people keep a car for 20-25 years. I'm waiting on a 800-1,000km battery because at my age it will be my last car and a 30% loss in km means it's still useful to me as I age
I really wish EV batteries could be standardised like lead car batteries. Maybe youd have to downgrade but you should be able to get a standard battery that keeps the car going for cheap.
The energy density going up in the future does not mean the pack will be replaced, as you say, with one that has half the KWH capacity for the same range. It could be replaced with a lighter pack with just a little less energy capacity to compensate for the lost weight.
So, the headline is: "Study reveals the price of batteries HAS halved." The content says (at 6.30) "Experts say that battery prices will halve by 2030". And at 8.20 "Black mass is worth $10,000 per kilogram". Actual value: about $5,000 per tonne. Come on Sam, you can do better. I don't know how much you're getting paid nor by who, but your kids are going to see this content one day. What sort of example is this for them to live their lives by? Honesty and integrity. It goes a long way.
I think the Black mass remark was just an oversight, I also thought it was wrong - guessing it should have been $10,000 per metric tonne. goldman Sachs has indeed released a study - and to be accurate one way or another, the dates between halving needs to be known. Also whether you are talking about dropping in half the value or by 50% from the specific dates. Going on price per kwh - the study suggests $99 per kwh by the end of 2024. As studies tend to be linear and reality more like exponential - it may be fair to say prices could be much lower than this. They might also be higher as well. CATL have already stated that their battery prices will drop by 50% from 2023 during 2024. Probably due to the wide adoption of the cheaper Sodium (salt) batteries that already ship in the likes of the BYD Seagull. Overall though, this video is a bit wayward and needs to be clearer on what is a complicated subject with many variations.
Price of batteries HAS halved several times in the last ten years. Edit: and will halve again by 2030. Tony Seba on YT channel RethinkX and Sam and to a degree Musk, have said it for years. In fact Tesla's own 4680's are now more expensive to make than they can buy them in for. Last year they were cheaper than third party suppliers even though they are making them more efficiently now than last year.
While the price is coming down, they're still a bit too heavy. I'd like to see a 35-40 percent drop in weight (and also size) without losing range, something that may not occur until the late 2020's as new battery chemistries becomes available commercially.
One of the things you have not taken into account is Robotaxi. Musk is estimating 3-5 times usage, but I haven't heard replacement battery costs. Point is, the car will have 250K mileage sooner. So that fleet will need maintenance and battery replacement. But the car itself still newer, so worth it to do.
There is hesitation on buying new electric cars due to manufacturers rapidly reducing prices of late. There is hesitation on buying second hand electric cars due to the above and also the uncertainty of the condition of the battery. Most people are not going to check the battery with an OBD reader, and apart from that, there is no credible source of information to go by with concerns to battery health. Issues like - has it been overly supercharged, has it got damage from road debris, what is the current degradation, what is the makeup of the battery (NMC - LFP etc), or even what is the current cost of a replacement battery? Apart from all of that putting the skids on second hand buying, people know that new chemistry batteries with much longer range, much more safety and the fact they are becoming cheaper causes buyers to wait and see.
I bought a used model 3 for 19,000 with 20% degradation. Should go for another 200,000 miles if I take care of it. In fact it seems to have rebounded by one percent. Pretty good deal for dollars per mile of range. Awesome car to drive.
You're driving a 4 wheeled touchscreen phone, not a car. As a result, failed components must be replaced, often at a cost exceeding the value of the thing. Ain't gonna happen.
@@ryandgarland The problem is roughly 90% of the battery issues happen because of water leaking into the battery case. This is why they glue more and more.
@@gerbre1 👍 their approach is that the battery is meant to live for the life time of the car. Which is ideal. However the tech isn't quite there yet, so some battery replacements are still necessary. This is where dreaming of a hypothetical world where being able to replace each cell would be ideal from a consumer repair perspective. In the real world, it doesn't make any sense from a functional or economical perspective. Gluing the whole thing together and making it more structural is a better way to go.
Your math is off, the price of battery packs is calculated by the capacity of the battery not the weight. Eg. $133/kWh for an 80kWh pack is 133x80=$10640.
If you are concerned about data privacy, chuck your smartphone in the bin. And make sure you don't walk anywhere with CCTV. And don't have an account on youtube.
You mean the price of the 12 volt battery in a full EV that only runs the accessories has halved. That's no doubt true because you do get them at a price reduction occasionally. The traction motor battery still costs more than your weekly take home salary if you're in a 9 to 5 Joe average kind of job.
Most Lithium Batteries have to be replaced in less than 5 years. That hasn't changed, even for batteries built in the last couple of years. A warranty by the car maker will not change this, you'll only get the first, second or third battery for "free" during the warranty. If your BEV is 10 years old, and the battery breaks again, it will still probably be totalled.
not even close to being true. not only do statistics not show this rate of replacement, but anecdotally I have two 5+ year old EVs at my house right now. And another 4 year old EV in teh garage. zero battery issues. My house is also littered with old lithium powered devices: laptops, phones, gardening equipment, etc. All lithium powered, all still working fine.
@@blanketwodahs6741 cope harder :). btw, my 2022 BEV already had it's battery replaced under warranty. Maybe you're talking about EVs in general? Many of them have lead acid batteries to operate the pantograph or the fuel cell system. Those last longer.
Sam, good job appreciate your videos. One thing, If energy density increases I don't think you need a lower KWH battery for same range. I would think that if energy density increases, You need the same KWH battery (60KWH in this case) but the battery will be lighter, smaller, eventually cheaper for the same capacity (60KWH).
TOO much people assume that less weight drops the energy consumption/ mile also. That thought is , especially for regenerating EV's, completely false. Because the extra energy you need to accelerate a heavy car will be regenerated back when slowing down for the most part. The only increase with extra weight is some rolling resistance...but in EV cars that is a tiny fraction of the total energy we need to overcome the drag of the car. (I never noticed a higher energy usage if my car was empty (only myself as driver) or loaded to the max allowed weight.)
For some reason, leaf ev owner's (I have a 2017) never can quite qualify for the warranty guarantee. Always some fine print clause that explains why you just won't get a free replacement, but they want $15.000 here in Oregon & if you say "do it" you go on an 8 month waiting list that never seems to get cot up. I can get another 2017 leaf used for $8000. Yea, they don't want no stinking electrical car's messing with that worldwide oil power! PS most dealers don't even have an EV tech on hire in their shops in America.
It is typical car stealership / manufacturer tactics. I had the same thing with a suspension strut fault on a Peugeot. While the car was in warranty, no issue could ever be found but the WEEK after warranty expired, the mechanic had diagnosed the "fault" before he had driven the car out of the parking lot. They eventually did the work based on an 85% reduction but I was still steaming.
That is for a Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery not a Lithium Ion Battery. If you keep your vehicle for over ten years and your battery lasts, then you should be in heaven.
I doubt that it will not last as long what you expect. It could work very long time if you are lucky but still battery degradations will lower your EV-range at least too much before 20 years has past. If these current Tesla batteries will last really as long as Tesla claims (1 million miles etc) , they could easily offer longer warranty for consumers.
@@ctuna2011 Exactly this will happen. There is no reason not to offer longer warranty from the beginning if batteries will last. Longer battery warranty could create more trust to consumers but they will not offer that. Tesla Viking repeating that "you can sell your failed Tesla battery...." Really? Every "housewifes" are going to drop the battery down from the car and selling it in good price and everything is fine again :D
Id really like to replace my 13 year old Mitsubishi minicab miev EV Kei van battery, but nobody to the people doing replacements that battery prices have fallen, also they dont seem to get the fact that a 1 year warranty for a battery pack just wont cut it. The other thing is keeping the brand of battery supplied secret doesnt do them any favours either. I suppose ill just have to donthe conversion myself for half the cost.
Every manufacturer should design the battery to be replaced in 10 minutes. One manufacturer already did that. I don't like their 300 mile swap out idea, but it shouldn't take any longer when the time comes in 10 or 20 years. You could drop your battery off for a tune up (bad cell replacement) any time and get a loaner for that.
I said that I don't like the swap out idea, and getting some old junk is indeed the reason why. All car companies should still use the easily removable design even if it is just used once in the life of the car. @@GWAForUTBE
Yep. Trade in your old Nissan Leaf 40kWh battery, and with that weighing in at around 200kg you'd make about $2 million. I'm seriously surprised why more people don't buy an EV with that kind of a return on investment.
Tesla doesn't disclose the numbers for all of its vehicles and the Cybertruck is lumped in with other products under 'other'. The consenus is that the CT sold about 8000 vs the Lightning at 7902. So Tesla sold a whopping 98 more trucks.😂 Now that I have gotten a good look at the CT, I will say it does look slightly better in person, but it's not really a truck in the traditional sense. I don't see it being used as a work vehicle.
If you use the price of a Lifpo4 battery today vs 5 to 10 years ago. 10 years ago a 100 amp hour batter cost $ 1,100 00 bucks today they are less the $ 300.00 this if a EV battery today last for 10 years before it losses 10 to 20% of it's original charging state ..it will still be a good battery for between 15 to 25 years .. yeah..
If you get your EV battery replaced I'll bet they don't let you keep the old one. I would take it out and sell it (or use it for solar) then have a new one installed.
Estimates have the CATL LFP pack at $85/kwh in China. This would be a volume quote. Perhaps Tesla China pays a little less? In reference to "replacement" batteries the current generation of EV batteries at "ten years" measurable range lost will be 10% to 20%. Perhaps we're estimating 175,000 miles? I've been running gas cars for a little over 50 years, the average gas car over 175,000 miles is not a joy to drive. There are 80 battery factories planned or under construction worldwide. Billions are being spent getting the price down and they have succeeded. All of this being said? Replacing an EV battery is very expensive and they are never going to be cheap.
The cost of replacement packs is dropping for OEMs, but where’s the evidence any of that is passed on to the customer who needs one. The OEM basically has a monopoly after all.
There are independent garages in the UK that will undertake battery pack replacements and upgrades. For the likes of Zoes and Leafs. Not sure about other vehicles.
@@bfree6197 Based on current prices, for my Fiesta I would say around 10000 km, but that's not the point. For budget tight families, they will look at the purchase price first, oil and electricity vary anyway. For example, with the Ukrainian war, electricity prices went crazy for a while (lots of bakeries in my region could not afford the costs and had to close). For myself, I will keep my Fiesta a few more years till more recharging stations are available (I envy the north of my country) and maybe till the current trend of boxy looking cars goes away. Speaking of recharging stations, with a 30 minutes charging time, I don't understand why they don't put them in the supermarkets parking! It make so much sense to recharge your car while you do your shopping!
why doesn't he understand that used prices have a big impact after 8 years, and it is not the whole battery you change, only 1-2 modules, but it still costs 8000 dollars in the EU with VAT, I don't want to buy an electric car with only 70 % of its battery, my advise to people is to buy LFP instead because they are more durable
I started watching this channel to see what is happening with EV technology. At the time I did not realize that you are a believer much more than a thinker/reporter. I do not need more propaganda. Too bad. I will not return.
What i find really annoying is that the anti EV lobby keep saying lithium is a rare element. It's not . If they had paid attention in their chemistry lessons they would have learned that lithium is just below hydrogen in the periodic table. And cobalt is not a rare element.
I think nissan are playing games with leaf battery warranty. I bought a 2019;leaf 40 kWh battery. Charged from zero to 100%. It only took 30.4 KW of charge measured on my meter on the charge cable. If I had 80% remaining it should be 32 kWh of charge. I had them test it and they said I have 12 bars. A brand new car has 12 bars. The brand new car would have 40 kW usable.
No. The Nio business model isdestined to fail. No need for silly battery swapping. The cost of keeping a huge battery inventory at each swap sation in order to meet demand peaks will kill it.
@@rogerphelps9939 Nio dose not only rely on battery swap. It also has charging stations all over China. Nio partnerships with other EV companies such as Geely , will generate revenue off battery swap alone. Many customers prefer battery swap to have that piece of mind in terms of battery degradation And range anxiety. Basics arithmetic will tell you With Baas, which means berries as a service will dominate the landscape.
If I buy an EV today, am I going to have the option to upgrade it later in 5 years, benefitting from next gen batteries with more density? For the space - especially in smaller EVs - is limited.
Yep, but shop around. I made some enquiries about swapping out a dead (well, below 70%) Hyundai Ioniq battery and the cost was more than just buying another second hand Ioniq with 90% battery.
I really doubt there will be "next gen" batteries for older chassis. Even on EV which have way fewer moving parts than ICE, there are still many parts and they all wear out eventually. And at some point it stops being economical to repair the car. Batteries are not the only thing to worry about. Consider ball joints, bushings, suspension, motors for windows, motors for seats. Then non-moving but essential parts like the interior fabrics, rubber seals on window. And active systems like the HVAC and compressor. The HVAC isnt just for you in the cabin, it's also essential for battery operations. Tesla calls theirs the Super Manifold and it's complicated! And computers the heart of cars such as Tesla, they wear out too. Silicon isn't forever. It has wear just from use - lookup the phenomena known as "silicon aging". This has become more noticeable as chips keep getting smaller (in nanonmeters). Lifetime for modern silicon is now estimated 10-15 years. Consider an EV a disposable item. There will be situations where repairs make sense. But I think with the way tech is moving, if you get 10 years from an EV you've done well and should move to the next generation. Recycling is hopefully good enough by then.
@@badchefi What you buy now are by definition current-gen batteries. The op is asking about future next-gen battery tech with more density. For example solid-state batteries are one possible next-gen tech. I can't imagine there will be enough of a market for first-gen Nissan Leafs for it be worth any company to make such a niche product. It's not just about changing the pack. Future batteries might require different cooling, management, computer remappings. It's not like changing the AA on your TV remote control. But who knows. Maybe first-gen Nissan Leafs will become so desirable and their owners so rich that companies can't ignore them and will make next-gen batteries plus all the associated changes for those ancient Nissan leafs. We'll find out in 10 years when next-gen batteries actually exist.
I don't understand, why do people knock the Nissan Leaf, its a great car and in this video the PERFECT candidate for your story line, but no, what do you say, 'it will probably better to replace the car' REALLY!!! You need to research better my friend!! There plenty of battery swap outs for the Leaf.
And I would think the replacements would be better than the originals. I would only count on Tesla and the Chinese to replace them though . Sam you should see the new Munro Live Ytube on the Sakuu battery . Solid State Lithium in stack able polymer cells. All dry process for both cathode and anode. There where reports of the other brands of cars like you mentioned raping there customers for replacement battery's
NEW battery technology by SAKUU promises to be SAFER, easier to manufacture and uses less metal thus making it LIGHTER too. SANDY MUNRO loves it. EXCITING TIMES!
Sam, 8 years is nothing. EV batteries must last as least 20-25 years in good condition and the warranty must be doubled from the 8 years. There is no point otherwise in the whole electric car market. There will not be any resale value for old EVs if batteries must replace a cost which is 10-20 000 dollars. Still EV battery replacement cost cannot be higher than 3000$.
@@GlenisRetiredNZ Show me the ICE car fuel tank which will fail when fueling up too fast or too often or too many years? There is no need for warranty for ICE cars fuel tank because it will not fail. Exactly. EVs will come of course but energy which is used and filled must be as reliable as like fueling a ICE car tank. Fuel tank could last even longer than 20 years without any degradations or corrosions inside the tank. It is not the consumer's job to pay the expensive development costs of insufficient batteries for electric cars.
Toyotas recent 3.4 Twin Turbo V6 debacle cost the company $30,000 for each engine rebuild at the STEALERships, and that is not an all new engine only parts that went bad,new crankshaft and block and bearings.Toyota still has no clue what is the cause of failure.
A Price being down 50% isn't saying the cost of production is down. Just as BEV prices are being slashed; it isn't due to lower production costs, in fact those are rising due to higher interest rates. The prices are down due to lower demand for the same reason; higher interest, resulting lower demand, and over production. You can find many such economic upsets. Oil producers can overproduce resulting in oil sold under the cost of production; or wheat, or hoursing in a high interest environment. So you see all the BEV makers and subsystem makers cutting prices and quaity just to try to survive. It isn't a good sign; it is a very bad sign as profits go to losses.
@@JoeMcMorrow-k7e used to be you could buy a Samsung phone and upgrade the memory. Then the company found they'd make more money selling you another phone .
You can't get same amount of range from 35 and 60 Kwh battery . You mean that you could get the same range from a smaller size and Weight battery of the future that is energy desse
so the cost of battery packs is coming down, but we are told the cost of a battery is half the cost of the car new, so why aren't we finding the cost of cars coming down, except in China
Replacement? No EV should need a replacement yet only a few years that EV sold in any volume this shows to wait to buy EV until the problems are worked out
If the price of EV replacement batteries is going down (halved), insurance company should start reducing the cost of EV car insurance.
maybe, instead of 5,000 a year now 3000 plus inflation 3,500, wow what a save. i owned a PHEV for which i was paying 1300 insurancebecause it was electric. i traded it in to buy a vw atlas R LINE a beautiful vehicle worth 55,000 dollars, INsurance rate 800 dollars. once the time comes to replace your ev, it will be worthless, why6 nobody will want it, so you will have lost 50,000 in 5 years and saved nothing and haqve nothing left to buy a new car , your loss considering you are buying a new one could be astronomus.
mean while in 5 years my vw will stil be worth 20,000 dollars
but gas will be North of 10 dollars a gallon if you can get it.
The insurance companies have to pay a lot for fender benders now because there's cameras and electronics equipment in everyone's bumper, EV or not, so I've heard.
@@art333-dg8ddWhy would your VW be worth 20k when companies make $10k EV's and we will get them en masse in a couple years. People would rather buy a brand new car.
8:05 Not here in the States, Tesla battery pack are outrageously priced. People here are selling their cars rather than buying batteries. That's why you see so many Teslas on used car lots
Do you spend your days walking around used car lots?
He takes daily EV inventory at every used car across the USA for a living so the jokes on you friend 😂
One will ALWAYS get 1/2 range of 60kWh pack from 30kWh pack, all other being equal, pay attention! Maybe 120kWh pack will cost the same in 8 years as 60kWh pack costs now, then you can get double range for the same price, but NEVER for the same capacity.
I think what Sam should have said here is that if the energy density doubles over time, your new 60kWh battery will take up only half as much space (or be half as heavy) as the old 60kWh battery, so you could theoretically cram a 120kWh battery into the space left by the old 60kWh battery, thereby doubling the range.
Sam gets this wrong every time he discusses density and range.
but…… a 60 kWh pack would likely be a lot lighter than the original, so you would get weight saving and therefore more range from the same capacity pack. buy yes, he got it wrong.
@@kiddster2112 There is no basis for hope that energy density of Li-Ion batteries will double any time soon. It didn't change much in the last 30 years. Li-Ion is not a new technology. Other chemistries are even worse in this or other aspect or only work in the lab.
Electrician here: An EVs range is mostly determined by the kWhr size of the battery pack, total vehicles weight, expected speed, and drag ratio. The average EV battery pack is 25% of the total vehicle weight, so if an older 60 kWhr battery pack is replaced with another 60 kWhr pack that weighs 20% less than the original pack, then the overall vehicle weight will only decrease by ~5%. This would only add a small amount of range. Or one could go with a slightly smaller pack to achieve the same range, BUT NOT A 35 kWhr battery. It would have to be around 50-55 kWhrs to achieve the same range.
I suspect most people would want to have a larger pack that would increase range rather than a smaller pack that kept the range the same.
@@GoCoyote and what if the energy density increases 30%? Your 60 kWh pack is now 80 and you've another hundred miles to enjoy.
I think most people would want slightly more range in a slightly smaller, modestly less expensive pack.
They don't need 500 or even 400 mile range. 320m to 360m would be great if the car is $30,000 instead of $42,000.
@@macmcleod1188 Agree. Ultimately, the markets will decide. When people have a choice, it will be interesting to see which way they go. Same weight, more miles, same cost. Or less weight, less miles, less cost.
lower priced BEV's would fill a niche of a 2nd car that is used to commute or run errands. It will not need long range so can have a smaller battery. Less range, less performance, less costs.
Good morning Sam. From Canada.
Keep up the fantastic work.
Good luck with the family.
Hey Canada! Greetings from Minnesota (aka Southern Canada😊)!
Yeah, this is one of his best videos.... Except for the mistake he made about the price of old batteries. I hope he corrects and re-uploads.
Really, this video answers one of the biggest criticisms EV trashers have.
7:42 If your car has as 60 kWh battery pack, you will always need a 60 kWh battery pack to get the same amount of range. You will not get more range from a 60 kWh pack no matter the battery density because efficiency is the same for the vehicle. However, if battery density is 2x, then you can put a 120 kWh battery in the same pack size and that will increase your range.
👍. 60 kWh is 60 kWh no matter how dense the battery is.
That is not true. Example: If your current 60 kwh battery pack has an energy density of 150 wh/kg then the weight would be 882 pounds. In the future if you replace the 60 kwh pack with one that has an energy density of 500 wh/kg then the battery weight would only be 265 pounds. That is a substantial weight decrease of 617 pounds. Just the battery weight reduction alone (not to mention the possibility of shaving additional weight off brakes, suspension, frame etc). would result in greater range. So you could choose to replace the old battery with the new 60 kwh pack for more range or go with a new 50-55 kwh pack to maintain the same range as you had with your old 150 wh/kg pack.
@@skipondowntheroad5833 it's already in kilograms, why are you converting it to pounds? 🧐
@@skipondowntheroad5833 You're talking about more than 3x battery density to have a 5-10 kWh smaller pack. He said 35 kWh pack for the same range or same size battery pack with double the range.
I'll bet out of warranty EV battery replacements are very rare. I'd like to see numbers on that. There are millions of them now and I just don't hear many cases of battery replacements. It would also be interesting to know how much it costs to replace a hybrid or PHEV battery.
8:30 Do you mean $10,000 per tonne? 😂
Nope, $10k per kg, so you can make tens of thousands selling your old EV battery pack. It will pay for a brand new Tesla !
No, $10,000/kg. Basically, you trade in your old 40kWh Leaf battery and at 195Wh/kg the recycling company pays you just over $2 million to take it off your hands.
It's a similar principle to the magic silver balls video the other day. You set them up in a room full of ambient light and generate the same amount of power as a small nuclear power station.
He is losing it 😁
@@yggdrasil9039
@@hardi.howdy.983 Not really. He puts out like 5 videos per day, so he doesn't have much time to proofread his script, if he even has one. The info is normally very good, but yeah, proofreading is needed.
At this moment Tesla will only replace my S85 pack like for like. I have asked if there are plans to upgrade these older batteries. No plans for this.
If price of batteries are dropping, then why Kia/Hyundai still quote C$60,000 for a replacement pack?
the "free market" in action. :)
Recently, in Canada, 2 Hyundais needed batteries out of warranty. Installed price was $60,000 each. That would buy quite a bit of gasoline. Also, I have read of older batteries not being in production. So no price is available.
We already have a company here in the UK (Cleeverly EV) who are willing to insure a Tesla battery after the 8 year warranty has expired. They can also remotely check your battery's condition on a Tesla for £60. Handy if your considering buying a used Tesla Remember we are still in the early stages of electric cars and their batteries. Everything is just going to get better and better owning an electric car.
Dude .. a replacement battery will need to be about the same kWh rating. Your observation of how density is going up .. saving some weight is valid .. but since the car’s suspension was designed for the origional weight, it would need to stay the same. Now .. of course the point is moot since BEV batteries outlast the car anyway.
I hope we don't start throwing away cars after couple of months to 5 years just because the battery is broken.
Replace a crap battery with a crappier battery
Have a 2015 LEAF, and everything is fine, including the battery. Zero problems with the main HV pack.
congrats!
The battery pack of my 2022 BEV has been replaced just a few weeks ago on warranty.
Meanwhile, the lead acid battery in my ice car is still doing its thing.
Does the leaf have thermal management on their batteries yet? At one time, they only had air cooling. This can't still be true?
@@svr5423I just googled it. The leaf does Not have a thermal management system for its battery. Your experience is not surprising. it is expected. 😮
@@svr5423 The 12 volt lead acid battery in my 2015 Leaf lasted nine years and only needed replacement earlier this year.
That's good but I have seen a youtube video where they talk about motor seals which fail in Tesla's (a fair number of times) and then coolant gets into the motor where it shouldn't and the repair costs are as much as maybe changing an engine or transmission in an ICE car. That's kind of scary. I would hate to have that kind of repair bill. Especially if they're not fixing a problem that they know they have.
I keep saying that Tesla are being super greedy with their prices, and need to slash them big time...
They are selling them at what the market will pay. Would you sell your products at less than people are willing to pay?
@@MrSteeDoo it's a flawed logic, as this contributes to the misery index because people are not that good at making smart financial decisions and end up taking on more debt that they can handle, which then causes them to lose their Teslas due to getting it repossessed or sold for way cheaper on secondary markets, all which eventually will affect the sales of new Teslas. Also, there are many more people who are willing to pay a fair price, and I would say that a starting price of 35K for a model Y (before any incentives or government credits) would be a fair price. You don't want to sell something to someone to make them an ill addict, you want to sell people stuff that makes them better and healthier people, does this all make sense to you?
batteries are consumables. And there are no universal batteries for cars (unlike in the BEV RC World).
So basically you get the car for "free" and you just pay the battery. Much like Inkjet printers.
@@svr5423 Not really. The ink in an inkjet printer must be replenished regularly and you pay through the nose for it if you buy OEM ink. An EV batery will now outlast the car.
@@rogerphelps9939 that doesn't speak for the BEV cars if they don't outlast a battery :).
It's like android phones, by the time the battery dies it's completely outdated and useless anyway.
From $30,000 to $15,000... Weeeeee
We did pay over $ 28,000 for batteries for our Tesla and immediately got rid of it. No more for me !
Black mass is $10000/kg? So if I can get 10 kg of BM from my 500 kg battery it’s worth $100 000??
Something is not right here. What am I missing? Even if I could get 4 kg of BM from a Leaf battery, it would make sense to me to go buy all the Leafs on the planet and drive them to a recycling facility.
$10000 per metric ton, methinks
I saw that figure also and it didn't make sense
I think he meant Ton
You'll get about 3k for your old leaf battery at a recycler or at a energy storage company
@@larryc1616BS.
Time to get into the battery recycling business. Nice vid!
Perhaps there should be an open source battery management hardware / software platform.
How about NO
Sounds like a fire hazard 🚒
7:40 HUH??? If I have a 60 kWh battery today, I only need a 35 kWh replacement battery in 2035 for the same range??
Science à la Sam the Electric Viking... ;)
He probably means smaller physical size and weight for same kWh.
@@JeraXO Yes, I figured so. But it's not what he said.
He's said things like this before.
It's like he thinks halving the weight of the battery doubles the range of the car. Obviously the lighter battery will help with the watts per mile/km, but probably by like 10 or 15%. It's not going to halve your power consumption.
@@patrickbeck4062 Yup, exactly.
More likely you’d get a 120kWh battery with the same dimensions and mass having double the energy density ergo twice the range at possibly half the price?
The prices do not reflect this study. $13,000 for the model 3 $14,000 for the model X and between $13,000 and $20,000 for the S. As of June 2024 from JD Power.
Quit trying to inject reality into Sam's delusion. IF he ever actually reads comments, he might need to go to a safe space.
@@dzcav3 ua-cam.com/video/rVFiRL49_rc/v-deo.htmlsi=Poah5WA34YTdm8wF. I guess his head will explode with this.
@@dzcav3 I love how someone keeps pulling my posts down when I post something from MGUY Australia
ua-cam.com/video/jbLWZSp4va8/v-deo.htmlsi=9AGXNU6uPM0-88G9
Used EVs unable to sell. In Canada people are selling ten year old teslas with 400,000 kms, but the batteries have been replaced as has the suspension and they are in need of wiring work or even body panels and glass need to be replaced. And they are being sold for $30,000 or more.
@@dzcav3 I went on auto trader Canada to see the highest mileage Tesla. A guy in Quebec has a near 400,000 km Model S and he has already replaced the whole battery, he doesn’t say when but he also replaced the battery cooling system, the whole suspension system and it needs a new door with wiring harness and a couple of windows, including the back glass need to be replaced because of cracks. He is asking $34,000.
There are other people who have done the exact same repairs and are trying to sell them for the same price. They are so not worth it especially since no one will tell you when they replaced the battery packs.
And just so people understand a windshield for a model 3 out of pocket is $2000, so a windshield for a Model S would be just as expensive and a back window would be about the same. So owning a used EV without a warranty is a financial deathwish. And anyone buying a used EV especially a cheap well ragged out one for that price is an idiot.
Manufacturers dont replace a faulty battery under warrenty with a new battery, in most cases. It is replaced with a rebuilt battery pack which have much higher failure rates than new packs or even packs of the same of the same age.
7:08 Sam, I don’t follow a higher density battery pack can have a smaller capacity ie from 60kW to 35kW, driving the same load. Though, I get it that the pack size is smaller while battery capacity stays the same. 60kW in your example.
You will need the same kWh battery in the future , the weight of the battery may be half the weight/price . But you will need the same capacity
yep a lighter battery might engender some overall efficiency but the kwh needs to be the same.
Agree. I heard same in multiple videos. If you have 60KWH battery you will always need a 60KWH battery for the same range. When energy density is higher, volume and weight of the battery will be lower.
Electric Viking. A 60kWh battery is a 60kWh battery no matter the energy density, the difference is with higher energy density, it will weigh less.
If the battery gets replaced under warranty in the first 8 years you are VERY lucky. That's like getting two lifetimes out of one car.
Glut of batteries are because BEV production has dropped significantly. Prices have dropped because they are trying to shift them as demand declines..! Battery plants are being deferred ..!
Not true.
Yeah right!
You can't assume that a company is going to make a battery that is cheaper for an older car in the future when the battery energy density is higher. Much of this is going to depend on how popular the car is at the time it was made and whether or not tons of people bought it which then will determine if other companies will want to make a replacement battery.
Sam - You got a little mixed up on the energy density as 30 kWh is 30 kWh regardless of the density. My Nissan Leaf for example has a 24 kWh battery which weighs around 600 lbs so if I replace it with a new pack where the weight of 1 kWh is half of what it was in the original then the replacement 24 kWh battery will weigh around 300 lbs and I might see a modest increase in range due to it weighing 300 lbs less than the original battery. If I replace it with a battery that weighs around 600 lbs then I might end up with about 50 kWh and around twice the range from a battery that weighs the same as the original 24 kWh battery.
Worn out ICE engines are not worthless unless the block is cracked, has a hole blown through it or similar catastrophic damage has occurred otherwise it generally has a Core Value of around $500 +\- for gasoline engines and around $1,000 +\- for diesel engines. Even with catastrophic damage its still has a value based on the current price per pound of scrap iron with mixed metals.
Best!
💥 💥💥💥 Do a video on recycling ♻️ EV battery’s ! And reusing them. Australia focused please.
Great video. Have a Tesla. First one arriving in Australia. Figuring out how to convert old battery to solar battery.
8 years or 100,000 miles. Out in western US we drive 25k miles a year pretty easily. That would only be 4 years..
The prices of commodities is so volatile that it's very difficult for providers to regulate the prices. And every time they find a significant source of the components for manufacture it causes pressures from the market that are artificial to the actual cost of recovery. 😮
Viking, I just crossed 200,000 miles on my original model 3 performance battery. Will link you to video when it's up.
I don't know how you can say the battery prices have gone down. My colleague here in Las Vegas had to replace his model s battery it is 10 years old he had to pay $14,000 and has to wait 3 weeks. Nope I don't think they're going down. By the way his car only had 50,000 mi on it in 10 years
We need the price of home storage batteries to really come do own now. That would really jump start, no archaic term in the EV age. That would really turbo charge…no, another term for buggy whip, archaic technology. That would speed up home electrification, EV adoption, the phase out of gas yard tools, etc. Right now, home batteries have an installed cost of $800 to well over $1,000 per kWh. When home battery storage drops below an installed cost of $100 per kWh, then the corrupt gas and electricity cartels will be disrupted!
8 years or 100k miles people are getting caught out on the 100k miles part not the 8 year part.
Still better than what you get with an ICE. And even then you have to pay the stealerships for servicing to maintain warranty.
In Aus Mitsubishi 10 yrs, Honda 8 yrs n Kia 7 yrs all with unlimited mileage. We also don't have to go to the dealership for servicing, any registered mechanic can do warranty work.
People are not getting "caught out".
Our 8 year old Tesla is at 92% of original range. Not looking to replace the battery anytime soon.
Its really good you are letting folk know of this.
Manufacturers don't give an 8 year warranty if they think it's likely to fail within that time frame. I'd happily assume you'd get 10 - 15 years. BYD says likely 20-25 years of current batteries and newer tech probably extends that. Very few people keep a car for 20-25 years. I'm waiting on a 800-1,000km battery because at my age it will be my last car and a 30% loss in km means it's still useful to me as I age
I really wish EV batteries could be standardised like lead car batteries. Maybe youd have to downgrade but you should be able to get a standard battery that keeps the car going for cheap.
Please correct estimated black mass value.
Obama is priceless
@@larryc1616bahahaha
The chicken coup scrapings that we call Trump is worthless.
The energy density going up in the future does not mean the pack will be replaced, as you say, with one that has half the KWH capacity for the same range. It could be replaced with a lighter pack with just a little less energy capacity to compensate for the lost weight.
So, the headline is: "Study reveals the price of batteries HAS halved." The content says (at 6.30) "Experts say that battery prices will halve by 2030". And at 8.20 "Black mass is worth $10,000 per kilogram". Actual value: about $5,000 per tonne. Come on Sam, you can do better. I don't know how much you're getting paid nor by who, but your kids are going to see this content one day.
What sort of example is this for them to live their lives by? Honesty and integrity. It goes a long way.
I guess, he has lost it 🤔
I think the Black mass remark was just an oversight, I also thought it was wrong - guessing it should have been $10,000 per metric tonne. goldman Sachs has indeed released a study - and to be accurate one way or another, the dates between halving needs to be known. Also whether you are talking about dropping in half the value or by 50% from the specific dates. Going on price per kwh - the study suggests $99 per kwh by the end of 2024. As studies tend to be linear and reality more like exponential - it may be fair to say prices could be much lower than this. They might also be higher as well. CATL have already stated that their battery prices will drop by 50% from 2023 during 2024. Probably due to the wide adoption of the cheaper Sodium (salt) batteries that already ship in the likes of the BYD Seagull. Overall though, this video is a bit wayward and needs to be clearer on what is a complicated subject with many variations.
Price of batteries HAS halved several times in the last ten years.
Edit: and will halve again by 2030.
Tony Seba on YT channel RethinkX and Sam and to a degree Musk, have said it for years.
In fact Tesla's own 4680's are now more expensive to make than they can buy them in for.
Last year they were cheaper than third party suppliers even though they are making them more efficiently now than last year.
While the price is coming down, they're still a bit too heavy. I'd like to see a 35-40 percent drop in weight (and also size) without losing range, something that may not occur until the late 2020's as new battery chemistries becomes available commercially.
One of the things you have not taken into account is Robotaxi. Musk is estimating 3-5 times usage, but I haven't heard replacement battery costs. Point is, the car will have 250K mileage sooner. So that fleet will need maintenance and battery replacement. But the car itself still newer, so worth it to do.
I can now get a second hand Mitsubishi IMiEV battery for about $400 AUD.
There is hesitation on buying new electric cars due to manufacturers rapidly reducing prices of late.
There is hesitation on buying second hand electric cars due to the above and also the uncertainty of the condition of the battery. Most people are not going to check the battery with an OBD reader, and apart from that, there is no credible source of information to go by with concerns to battery health. Issues like - has it been overly supercharged, has it got damage from road debris, what is the current degradation, what is the makeup of the battery (NMC - LFP etc), or even what is the current cost of a replacement battery?
Apart from all of that putting the skids on second hand buying, people know that new chemistry batteries with much longer range, much more safety and the fact they are becoming cheaper causes buyers to wait and see.
I bought a used model 3 for 19,000 with 20% degradation. Should go for another 200,000 miles if I take care of it. In fact it seems to have rebounded by one percent. Pretty good deal for dollars per mile of range. Awesome car to drive.
I don't want my battery to be replaced, I want it to be repaired for a considerably lower price.
there are battery repairers for Tesla in the US Gruber motors being one
You're driving a 4 wheeled touchscreen phone, not a car. As a result, failed components must be replaced, often at a cost exceeding the value of the thing.
Ain't gonna happen.
It would be awesome if the vehicles with the 4680's were designed to where each cell could be replaced. Instead of glueing them all together.
@@ryandgarland The problem is roughly 90% of the battery issues happen because of water leaking into the battery case. This is why they glue more and more.
@@gerbre1 👍 their approach is that the battery is meant to live for the life time of the car. Which is ideal. However the tech isn't quite there yet, so some battery replacements are still necessary. This is where dreaming of a hypothetical world where being able to replace each cell would be ideal from a consumer repair perspective. In the real world, it doesn't make any sense from a functional or economical perspective. Gluing the whole thing together and making it more structural is a better way to go.
Could/should the old battery pack be factored in to a discounted price? Seems this would make sense in the recycling process.
$10,000 per kg. So a dead battery is worth $100,000?
EV batteries are not 10kg, they are at least 200kg. So you're looking at around $2 million dollars trade in value, yep.
@@yggdrasil9039 No wonder Elon is the richest person in the world!
@@stefan2796 Why, he sells a 2 million battery pack for 10 thousand? How does that make him money?
10 Dollars per kg is realistic.
Your math is off, the price of battery packs is calculated by the capacity of the battery not the weight. Eg. $133/kWh for an 80kWh pack is 133x80=$10640.
Hi Sam
Could you cover data privacy issues with smart cars?
He can't.
He just reads others' articles.
If you are concerned about data privacy, chuck your smartphone in the bin. And make sure you don't walk anywhere with CCTV. And don't have an account on youtube.
chinese EVs are part of the CCP mass surveillance program.
You mean the price of the 12 volt battery in a full EV that only runs the accessories has halved. That's no doubt true because you do get them at a price reduction occasionally. The traction motor battery still costs more than your weekly take home salary if you're in a 9 to 5 Joe average kind of job.
Most Lithium Batteries have to be replaced in less than 5 years.
That hasn't changed, even for batteries built in the last couple of years.
A warranty by the car maker will not change this, you'll only get the first, second or third battery for "free" during the warranty. If your BEV is 10 years old, and the battery breaks again, it will still probably be totalled.
not even close to being true. not only do statistics not show this rate of replacement, but anecdotally I have two 5+ year old EVs at my house right now. And another 4 year old EV in teh garage. zero battery issues.
My house is also littered with old lithium powered devices: laptops, phones, gardening equipment, etc. All lithium powered, all still working fine.
@@blanketwodahs6741 cope harder :).
btw, my 2022 BEV already had it's battery replaced under warranty.
Maybe you're talking about EVs in general? Many of them have lead acid batteries to operate the pantograph or the fuel cell system. Those last longer.
Sam, good job appreciate your videos. One thing, If energy density increases I don't think you need a lower KWH battery for same range. I would think that if energy density increases, You need the same KWH battery (60KWH in this case) but the battery will be lighter, smaller, eventually cheaper for the same capacity (60KWH).
TOO much people assume that less weight drops the energy consumption/ mile also.
That thought is , especially for regenerating EV's, completely false.
Because the extra energy you need to accelerate a heavy car will be regenerated back when slowing down for the most part.
The only increase with extra weight is some rolling resistance...but in EV cars that is a tiny fraction of the total energy we need to overcome the drag of the car.
(I never noticed a higher energy usage if my car was empty (only myself as driver) or loaded to the max allowed weight.)
For some reason, leaf ev owner's (I have a 2017) never can quite qualify for the warranty guarantee. Always some fine print clause that explains why you just won't get a free replacement, but they want $15.000 here in Oregon & if you say "do it" you go on an 8 month waiting list that never seems to get cot up. I can get another 2017 leaf used for $8000. Yea, they don't want no stinking electrical car's messing with that worldwide oil power! PS most dealers don't even have an EV tech on hire in their shops in America.
It is typical car stealership / manufacturer tactics. I had the same thing with a suspension strut fault on a Peugeot. While the car was in warranty, no issue could ever be found but the WEEK after warranty expired, the mechanic had diagnosed the "fault" before he had driven the car out of the parking lot. They eventually did the work based on an 85% reduction but I was still steaming.
I expect to replace my battery in 20-30 years. The math estimates that a 2018 Tesla battery should last for 20+ years or over a million miles. :)
That is for a Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery not a Lithium Ion Battery. If you keep your vehicle for over ten years and your battery lasts, then you should be in heaven.
I doubt that it will not last as long what you expect. It could work very long time if you are lucky but still battery degradations will lower your EV-range at least too much before 20 years has past. If these current Tesla batteries will last really as long as Tesla claims (1 million miles etc) , they could easily offer longer warranty for consumers.
@@shawnnoyes4620 LFP is a Lithium Ion Battery.
Gruber Motors says they are starting to see the original model S battery's fail at about 13 years.
@@ctuna2011 Exactly this will happen. There is no reason not to offer longer warranty from the beginning if batteries will last. Longer battery warranty could create more trust to consumers but they will not offer that.
Tesla Viking repeating that "you can sell your failed Tesla battery...."
Really? Every "housewifes" are going to drop the battery down from the car and selling it in good price and everything is fine again :D
10 grand per kilo? We're gonna get so friggen rich.
Id really like to replace my 13 year old Mitsubishi minicab miev EV Kei van battery, but nobody to the people doing replacements that battery prices have fallen, also they dont seem to get the fact that a 1 year warranty for a battery pack just wont cut it. The other thing is keeping the brand of battery supplied secret doesnt do them any favours either. I suppose ill just have to donthe conversion myself for half the cost.
the black mass around 10 usd per kg....right ?
Every manufacturer should design the battery to be replaced in 10 minutes. One manufacturer already did that. I don't like their 300 mile swap out idea, but it shouldn't take any longer when the time comes in 10 or 20 years. You could drop your battery off for a tune up (bad cell replacement) any time and get a loaner for that.
@@Fred-hi8tt eventually Tesla will do that
@Fred-hi8tt Nio does this. The problem is, are you going to trade your brand new battery in for one that may be nearly done?
I said that I don't like the swap out idea, and getting some old junk is indeed the reason why. All car companies should still use the easily removable design even if it is just used once in the life of the car. @@GWAForUTBE
Will see
Black mass sells for $10000 per 2 pounds?
Yep. Trade in your old Nissan Leaf 40kWh battery, and with that weighing in at around 200kg you'd make about $2 million.
I'm seriously surprised why more people don't buy an EV with that kind of a return on investment.
I think it was meant to be per metric tonne not per metric kilo
Vaporware currently sells at 100K per ounce...just mind blowing! Sam knows all about it.
Awesome!!!
What is currently (pun alert) needed is an insurance for battery replacement.
Hi I’m calling about your automotive battery extended warranty
Warranty and extended warranty
or just lease the battery
@@svr5423 Your car is fine but failed to start due to the battery lease expiration. Please enter your credit card for continued use of your EV.
Tesla doesn't disclose the numbers for all of its vehicles and the Cybertruck is lumped in with other products under 'other'. The consenus is that the CT sold about 8000 vs the Lightning at 7902. So Tesla sold a whopping 98 more trucks.😂
Now that I have gotten a good look at the CT, I will say it does look slightly better in person, but it's not really a truck in the traditional sense. I don't see it being used as a work vehicle.
Black mass cannot be worth that much. That means that the 772 kg pack in a model Y is worth $7,700,000
Sorry Sam I can’t give you a thumbs up on this one! $10,000 per kg - hilarious.
If you use the price of a Lifpo4 battery today vs 5 to 10 years ago. 10 years ago a 100 amp hour batter cost $ 1,100 00 bucks today they are less the $ 300.00 this if a EV battery today last for 10 years before it losses 10 to 20% of it's original charging state ..it will still be a good battery for between 15 to 25 years .. yeah..
If you get your EV battery replaced I'll bet they don't let you keep the old one. I would take it out and sell it (or use it for solar) then have a new one installed.
Would be nice if CATL LIFEPO4 280-320ah cells were reduced in price to EU. Most of the cost is shipping and taxes.
Estimates have the CATL LFP pack at $85/kwh in China. This would be a volume quote. Perhaps Tesla China pays a little less? In reference to "replacement" batteries the current generation of EV batteries at "ten years" measurable range lost will be 10% to 20%. Perhaps we're estimating 175,000 miles? I've been running gas cars for a little over 50 years, the average gas car over 175,000 miles is not a joy to drive.
There are 80 battery factories planned or under construction worldwide. Billions are being spent getting the price down and they have succeeded. All of this being said? Replacing an EV battery is very expensive and they are never going to be cheap.
👍👍
The cost of replacement packs is dropping for OEMs, but where’s the evidence any of that is passed on to the customer who needs one. The OEM basically has a monopoly after all.
No mention about labour costs & you cant change it yourself at home + any delay in getting it changed
There are independent garages in the UK that will undertake battery pack replacements and upgrades. For the likes of Zoes and Leafs. Not sure about other vehicles.
Price off EVs on par with ICE cars? Just a recent example here in Europe: Citroen e-C3, 23000 EUR, cheap? Well, ICE version 15000 EUR.
How many kilometers can you drive with 8,000 EUR worth of gas??? And that would be 8,000 plus taxes?
@@bfree6197 Based on current prices, for my Fiesta I would say around 10000 km, but that's not the point. For budget tight families, they will look at the purchase price first, oil and electricity vary anyway. For example, with the Ukrainian war, electricity prices went crazy for a while (lots of bakeries in my region could not afford the costs and had to close).
For myself, I will keep my Fiesta a few more years till more recharging stations are available (I envy the north of my country) and maybe till the current trend of boxy looking cars goes away.
Speaking of recharging stations, with a 30 minutes charging time, I don't understand why they don't put them in the supermarkets parking! It make so much sense to recharge your car while you do your shopping!
why doesn't he understand that used prices have a big impact after 8 years, and it is not the whole battery you change, only 1-2 modules, but it still costs 8000 dollars in the EU with VAT, I don't want to buy an electric car with only 70 % of its battery, my advise to people is to buy LFP instead because they are more durable
I started watching this channel to see what is happening with EV technology. At the time I did not realize that you are a believer much more than a thinker/reporter. I do not need more propaganda. Too bad. I will not return.
Ok, beat it then. Don't let the door hit you in the butt.
What i find really annoying is that the anti EV lobby keep saying lithium is a rare element. It's not . If they had paid attention in their chemistry lessons they would have learned that lithium is just below hydrogen in the periodic table. And cobalt is not a rare element.
I think nissan are playing games with leaf battery warranty. I bought a 2019;leaf 40 kWh battery. Charged from zero to 100%. It only took 30.4 KW of charge measured on my meter on the charge cable. If I had 80% remaining it should be 32 kWh of charge. I had them test it and they said I have 12 bars. A brand new car has 12 bars. The brand new car would have 40 kW usable.
I rather just get a Nio and forget about battery degradation. If I want to save some money I’ll get me a Onvo.
No. The Nio business model isdestined to fail. No need for silly battery swapping. The cost of keeping a huge battery inventory at each swap sation in order to meet demand peaks will kill it.
@@rogerphelps9939 Nio dose not only rely on battery swap. It also has charging stations all over China. Nio partnerships with other EV companies such as Geely , will generate revenue off battery swap alone. Many customers prefer battery swap to have that piece of mind in terms of battery degradation And range anxiety. Basics arithmetic will tell you With Baas, which means berries as a service will dominate the landscape.
If I buy an EV today, am I going to have the option to upgrade it later in 5 years, benefitting from next gen batteries with more density? For the space - especially in smaller EVs - is limited.
Yes, look at the Nissan Leaf platform as an example - started in 2011 with 24kWh - today same size battery box can fit 50 to 60kWh of LFP cells.
Yep, but shop around. I made some enquiries about swapping out a dead (well, below 70%) Hyundai Ioniq battery and the cost was more than just buying another second hand Ioniq with 90% battery.
I really doubt there will be "next gen" batteries for older chassis. Even on EV which have way fewer moving parts than ICE, there are still many parts and they all wear out eventually. And at some point it stops being economical to repair the car. Batteries are not the only thing to worry about. Consider ball joints, bushings, suspension, motors for windows, motors for seats. Then non-moving but essential parts like the interior fabrics, rubber seals on window. And active systems like the HVAC and compressor. The HVAC isnt just for you in the cabin, it's also essential for battery operations. Tesla calls theirs the Super Manifold and it's complicated! And computers the heart of cars such as Tesla, they wear out too. Silicon isn't forever. It has wear just from use - lookup the phenomena known as "silicon aging". This has become more noticeable as chips keep getting smaller (in nanonmeters). Lifetime for modern silicon is now estimated 10-15 years.
Consider an EV a disposable item. There will be situations where repairs make sense. But I think with the way tech is moving, if you get 10 years from an EV you've done well and should move to the next generation. Recycling is hopefully good enough by then.
@@nhand42 you can already buy them of first generation Nissan Leafs.
@@badchefi What you buy now are by definition current-gen batteries. The op is asking about future next-gen battery tech with more density. For example solid-state batteries are one possible next-gen tech. I can't imagine there will be enough of a market for first-gen Nissan Leafs for it be worth any company to make such a niche product. It's not just about changing the pack. Future batteries might require different cooling, management, computer remappings. It's not like changing the AA on your TV remote control. But who knows. Maybe first-gen Nissan Leafs will become so desirable and their owners so rich that companies can't ignore them and will make next-gen batteries plus all the associated changes for those ancient Nissan leafs. We'll find out in 10 years when next-gen batteries actually exist.
car values is now unforgiving not a storage of money as the past....
They can’t sell them there’s an ver supply
I don't understand, why do people knock the Nissan Leaf, its a great car and in this video the PERFECT candidate for your story line, but no, what do you say, 'it will probably better to replace the car' REALLY!!! You need to research better my friend!! There plenty of battery swap outs for the Leaf.
how long should it last if you drive 50000 miles a year?
And I would think the replacements would be better than the originals. I would only count on Tesla and the Chinese to replace them though .
Sam you should see the new Munro Live Ytube on the Sakuu battery . Solid State Lithium in stack able polymer cells. All dry process for both cathode and anode. There where reports of the other brands of cars like you mentioned raping there customers for replacement battery's
NEW battery technology by SAKUU promises to be SAFER, easier to manufacture and uses less metal thus making it LIGHTER too. SANDY MUNRO loves it. EXCITING TIMES!
Sam, 8 years is nothing. EV batteries must last as least 20-25 years in good condition and the warranty must be doubled from the 8 years. There is no point otherwise in the whole electric car market. There will not be any resale value for old EVs if batteries must replace a cost which is 10-20 000 dollars. Still EV battery replacement cost cannot be higher than 3000$.
Show me an ICE car with a 20 year warranty on any part.
@@GlenisRetiredNZ Show me the ICE car fuel tank which will fail when fueling up too fast or too often or too many years? There is no need for warranty for ICE cars fuel tank because it will not fail.
Exactly. EVs will come of course but energy which is used and filled must be as reliable as like fueling a ICE car tank.
Fuel tank could last even longer than 20 years without any degradations or corrosions inside the tank. It is not the consumer's job to pay the expensive development costs of insufficient batteries for electric cars.
They need to halve that insurance. I'm paying a lot compared to my fossil bmw.
Try other insurance company. That is unless you BEV is much more powerful than your BMW.
The insurance for my Skoda Enyaq is abou the same as for a comparable ICE car.
if vw would commit to an fixed price of around 7500 euros for an new 58 kwh battery , i would consider to buy an id 3
Toyotas recent 3.4 Twin Turbo V6 debacle cost the company $30,000 for each engine rebuild at the STEALERships, and that is not an all new engine only parts that went bad,new crankshaft and block and bearings.Toyota still has no clue what is the cause of failure.
That's not true, Toyotas don't break, I read that all over the internet. That's why the don't have an EV because their GV's are perfect in every way.
@@joedoesfun9336 You know what? The Internet never lies, because it is like a broken record.Lol
A Price being down 50% isn't saying the cost of production is down. Just as BEV prices are being slashed; it isn't due to lower production costs, in fact those are rising due to higher interest rates. The prices are down due to lower demand for the same reason; higher interest, resulting lower demand, and over production. You can find many such economic upsets. Oil producers can overproduce resulting in oil sold under the cost of production; or wheat, or hoursing in a high interest environment. So you see all the BEV makers and subsystem makers cutting prices and quaity just to try to survive. It isn't a good sign; it is a very bad sign as profits go to losses.
If batteries last 20 years. Well, my daily driver is 21 years old, so not yet for me I guess. Room for improvement.
Half of $50K is still way too expensive. Needs to be under $5K
Supply surpasses demand. That would explain lower prices. Then.ask why?
EVer buy a mobile phone that cost more but did less ?Even though the world is swimming in the things?
@@JoeMcMorrow-k7e used to be you could buy a Samsung phone and upgrade the memory. Then the company found they'd make more money selling you another phone .
You can't get same amount of range from 35 and 60 Kwh battery . You mean that you could get the same range from a smaller size and Weight battery of the future that is energy desse
so the cost of battery packs is coming down, but we are told the cost of a battery is half the cost of the car new, so why aren't we finding the cost of cars coming down, except in China
No. A $50 per kwh 80kwh is only $4k. Even if you double it to account for pack fabrication costs it is still less than half.
Replacement? No EV should need a replacement yet only a few years that EV sold in any volume this shows to wait to buy EV until the problems are worked out