Here is a list of what Abusers/Narcissists usually do to their targets : - Insults their target very often. Then lie when confronted about it, or say it was a joke. - When confronted with their behavior, they pretend to be innocent and play the victim. - Everything is always your fault, even when it's obviously not. - They always have a justification for every bad thing they do. They think they're always right. - Very controlling, they tell you how to live, but they can live anyway they want. Very hypocritical. - They accuse you of what they're doing to you (RED FLAG!), it's called Projection. - Portraying themselves as angels outside, when they are actually demons with their family and especially their target. - They want you to fail, while pretending to want you to succeed (they're very convincing). - They never say they are sorry for hurting you (RED FLAG!). - Poison your favorite activities, they don't want you to be happy or to get pleasure. They also poison other useful activities like important skills which will help you in the future. They DO NOT want you to have skills, they want you to be as weak as possible. They don't teach you anything. - Subtly lead a smear campaign against their target, so they isolate it and make sure they don't get help. - When you want to leave the relationship with a narcissist, they beg you to stay with them and cry crocodile tears. They are the best actors. - Sometimes nice, sometimes cruel. You never know where you stand with them. - They pretend to be "victims", and they blame the target for their own behavior. - They are incredibly arrogant and sadistic. They see the target as weak, and deserving to suffer. - They think they are models to be followed. - They are spiritually dead although they might loudly profess some kind of Spiritual Belief. Please share this message to other people and forums.
If I was happy about something then my dad would throw a tantrum and my family, and eventually the police, would come and I'm guilty of everything my dad does in front of them. He drinks liquor and gets drunk and they look at me and call me a drunk, even though I don't drink and it is well known. This denial of my "drinking problem" is grounds to get me "psychiatric help" because of my delusions. IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND COWARDICE. THEY ARE COWARDS AND HATE ANY SIGN OF COURAGE, NO MATTER HOW SMALL. YOU CAN TELL THEY KNOW BUT THEY ARE COWARDS!!!
I've been under this atrocity for 2 DECADES...the torturers are local LE and local court systems. 20 years w/o a DL and ive fought this time after time accruing huge legal fees as well aa FINES.... I'm a. Documented Chronic Pain Individual; divorced with a son on the Autism Spectrum-/PDD diagnosis. I feel that in becoming invisible. No social activity. Unable to absorb incoming information....and this post by Dr VAknin on torture and torturers drives everything home that time and illegalities has taken from myself and most of all my disabled son's lives. This is true directed planned out psychological torture but how can I, a dysfunctional human being presently help myself. ?????????
I honestly think part of the desire to bond with the abuser is the hope to change them, by merging with them, to open their eyes so the abuse stops. But it never does. They never let anyone in. They just let you think they do. Everything they do is a lie to only hurt you more so they can continue to watch and manipulate the show. They are sickest of the sick, most twisted, evil minds and the deepest depths of hell is filled with them.
I had to beg for my life on several occasions, when I was a small child and as a teenager, yet whenever I bought these scenarios up I was told that I was imagining things, I thought I was crazy, then finally , after many years my enabler parent admitted that it was all true. Physical torture occurs long after the event and becomes psychological torture. Thanks Sam you validated all that I have experienced, which certainly assists in the "moving on" process
I grew up with a cruel mother. Paedophiliac grand-father and grand-grand-father on my father side, a village full of unlisted incestuous & pedophiles. I teach myself psychology since the age of 13 yo. And discovered your channel juste recently. It helps me to understand a lot better these cold and fragile psyches. More and more, the weight of theirs numerous crimes flies away from my soul. Thank you so much Sam!! Thank you for everything you share. I know what it is to have Narcissistic traits (I think I might be Asperger as well), but after a life time of work on my own psyche, I did learn to Love my 2 sons deeply and worked on myself every days since they were born to grow old the best Mom I can be for them. And it's always a relief for me to observe that, despite all the traumas and abuse I've been through, they grew up being both young happy independent adults with purpose in life! They grew up developing healthy forms of individual narcissisms. Unlike me, which is the result of enormous amount of hours of psychology studies and applied it to my own life. But first, I had the chance to encounter Resilience in my early age, other members of the family shown me what a normal kid life was. And that this kid would have a better future!! Thank you so much for this channel! Thank you, Sam, for being a Survivor!!
I'm speechless. I thought I was delusional. I know I'm being tortured and abused but even when I think it, another dialogue in my mind says I'm mistaken. Much like the narcissist makes me feel about every single perspective I have.
yeah. my parents destroyed me since I was a infant. the gaslighting, the isolation. was starved and kept awake at age 2 for 3 days so they could make sure I was asleep when they were going to suffocate their third child since he wasn't a girl and my father promised my mother she was going to have one.
My example of 'torture' is being put in dilemmas, being bounced into catch 22's, constantly in psycholigcal ways being trapped by an NPD between the two horns of a bull with no way out.
A frightening video, Sam exposes the sometimes permanment resulting psychological damage, not limited to the decimation of self-esteem in the victim, and emotional damage that becomes crippling and life-changing, or as Sam put it, a "psychological death." Most victims of narcissists have already been groomed by abusive parents. The escalated
Emotiona damages are the biggest problems. Panic of move forward it takes time for gain fully confidence. I been through that . am afraid of remembering
I live out in the country alone and my Narc took advantage of that. If anyone came around he'd drive them away. He would get up at 3 am while I was sleeping and scream at me in a fit of rage. His abuse was mental torture and he used his size and strength to intimidate me by getting close to me- in my space. I likened it to living in a house of horrors- mental torture.
Sam, thank you for posting these videos. You have helped me tremendously understand the horrendous abuse that I survived as a child. I've been told by several therapists that what I went through was one of the worst cases of child abuse they've ever heard. People have told me that I should write a book...I don't know if that is healthy idea or not.
I don't recommend it. I won't go into the details but I wrote a book about an experience I had being subjected to a form of torture. The amount of thought you have to put into it, not healthy in the least. It resulted in a near on nervous breakdown - I got the book published but regretted it.
It would be so useful to have a summary of the internal damage children suffer from when they endure molestation from birth, and then torture and molestation in Foster Care on top of it. Please consider posting on child abuse and it's impact, as well as the need to separate siblings who were trained to molest and torture each other.
I'M a spanish MALE VICTIM OF TORTURE AND CORRUPTION AND MORE THAN 30 CRIMES AGAINST ME IN MURCIA, SPAIN DURING MORE THAN 5 YEARS. IS THERE ANYBODY ABLE TO HELP?
Sam, can you please, would you possibly, be able to do a video talking about how one recovers from torture having been a political prisoner? I was deprived of regular sleep in which I was awakened every couple of hours for months on end, kept in isolation, not knowing if it was day or night, was beaten, exposed to hot and cold, dislocated shoulders, starved losing 25 pounds in two and half months. Loud music was played, and the guards also worked on my teeth in the dental dispensary without anesthetic. My hair was pulled out, I was made to stand still for hours long... other times, had my arms pulled back, bound behind me for long periods of time... and horrible, heartbreaking things were said to me repeatedly. I want to be how I was before I was tortured.
Wendy I was the victim of torture in different circumstances, I wasn't a political prisoner, but the circumstances were unusual, I was detained against my will at gunpoint and it went from there. The main perpetrator went to jail for seven years, two others also went to jail, it drove me to the point where I ended up with epilepsy from this, it transcended PTSD, for 4 years I had to take tegretol until I was given the all clear to come off it. A nightmare. I'm sorry but being realistic there is no fast recovery from something like this, no one walks away without being profoundly affected, and I'd suspect your experience was far worse than mine because it was more prolonged than what happened to me. Mine was 31 years ago and as such it has faded now. That's the only thing I can say that may give a little hope. There isn't a fast track to recovery, it's probably just doing the best you can to live life, and time doing some healing. Just remember, life is good and there is a lot about life that is good, there would be people who care about you. Try and think about the good things in life, keep the one's you love close, it's worth being alive even though you've suffered immensely.
Shake your reality to its core instilling a deep fear then once engulfed provides a savior for your new reality a false hope in this you are embraced in the perversion of torture
How??? I’m fed the fuck up !!! Mine is dhs government crooked shit medical neglect. I can’t work !!! I can’t leave my house n not worry about who is it n why ? N we my kids n I don’t feel safe here. . I been through crazy xs n lots of abuse in every way possible but this shit gone to far GANG STALKING 💯💯💯
Sam as a therapist who experienced 'abuse by poxy' all I can say is there is a God of the Universe...because abusers and malignant narcissists DO NOT STOP! SO when dealing with these things learned helplessness is almost inevitable sometimes but for a force superior to the intense motivations and at times institutional and systematic abuse...great video
A frightening video, Sam exposes the sometimes permanent resulting psychological damage, not limited to the decimation of self-esteem in the victim, and emotional damage that becomes crippling and life-changing, or as Sam put it, a "psychological death."
Hearing such dictations is more torture for me. If such absolutes are know then the failure of continued CHILD ABUSES and more, that still exist, lies on so-called professionals who claim such enlightenment. I find that this man in the video, among billions whom I feel are so abused and tortured that they fail to see the abuse and torture they're inflicting on others, especially innocent and helpless children. I don't think any child wants to feel harmed, yet harm is almost always inflicted in return and/or is used as revenge on a child by others who feel harmed or judge that something was done wrongly. From experience I think Bullying, Abuses, Torture, Hypocrisy, assumed authority and more are still being practiced, supported, permitted and when challenged more harm occurs. I hate it when others and myself speak in absolutes, and dictate what's true for others. I hate when people talk in manners that are incorrect because other possibilities exist that contradict what's initially expressed as absolute truth. Humanity seems too messed up to evolve for the better; I don't know anyone smart enough to understand what I'm talking about, let alone help. It seems to me that we can't agree on how to talk to each other, so I don't think people will figure out how to help others solve abuses, bullying, and torture and more that are still occuring and seemingly getting worse. What say you all?
@@annastone5624 From your comment and such a horrific reality still being participated in, perpetuated, and profited off of, I still don't see that you understand what 'm saying, even though you say hear what I'm saying. And are you feeding the monster by supporting so-called therapists profiting off of criminal acts - who don't work to stop and prevent harm? Are you a part of the problem? Sick people harm innocent and helpless children, many of whom, if not the majority of who become sick themselves and then harm innocent and helpless children generation after generation? - Is this what humanity is overall? I don't need as much if any validation, what I need and innocent and helpless children need is to not be harmed by people who are seemingly incapable of realizing what harms entail. Results in correcting the mistreatment of people are needed, not more of what we have and don't have now. Can you help or no? Does your and others lives have any meaning - knowing we aren't stopping nor preventing child abuses of so many types and are ruining so many children's lives?
My narcisist when farther that just devaluing me. When he changed into a girl (and changed his name), she said, "I understand you must hurt over the loss of James (he had become a gay transexual" the perfect woman?) but it was OK because she had lost "her DeLyla" And she was right. She has.
Narcissistic and psychopathic parents and their children - click on the links: groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4727
So the psycho gets off knowing the victim creates this weird bond? Or is this just a way to describe what pray and hunter go trough on a individual level?
![Роберт Сапольски - Депрессия [Vert Dider]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_UtA0dwGoUQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Here is a list of what Abusers/Narcissists usually do to their targets :
- Insults their target very often. Then lie when confronted about it, or say it was a joke.
- When confronted with their behavior, they pretend to be innocent and play the victim.
- Everything is always your fault, even when it's obviously not.
- They always have a justification for every bad thing they do. They think they're always right.
- Very controlling, they tell you how to live, but they can live anyway they want. Very hypocritical.
- They accuse you of what they're doing to you (RED FLAG!), it's called Projection.
- Portraying themselves as angels outside, when they are actually demons with their family and especially their target.
- They want you to fail, while pretending to want you to succeed (they're very convincing).
- They never say they are sorry for hurting you (RED FLAG!).
- Poison your favorite activities, they don't want you to be happy or to get pleasure. They also poison other useful activities like important skills which will help you in the future. They DO NOT want you to have skills, they want you to be as weak as possible. They don't teach you anything.
- Subtly lead a smear campaign against their target, so they isolate it and make sure they don't get help.
- When you want to leave the relationship with a narcissist, they beg you to stay with them and cry crocodile tears. They are the best actors.
- Sometimes nice, sometimes cruel. You never know where you stand with them.
- They pretend to be "victims", and they blame the target for their own behavior.
- They are incredibly arrogant and sadistic. They see the target as weak, and deserving to suffer.
- They think they are models to be followed.
- They are spiritually dead although they might loudly profess some kind of Spiritual Belief.
Please share this message to other people and forums.
If I was happy about something then my dad would throw a tantrum and my family, and eventually the police, would come and I'm guilty of everything my dad does in front of them. He drinks liquor and gets drunk and they look at me and call me a drunk, even though I don't drink and it is well known. This denial of my "drinking problem" is grounds to get me "psychiatric help" because of my delusions. IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND COWARDICE. THEY ARE COWARDS AND HATE ANY SIGN OF COURAGE, NO MATTER HOW SMALL. YOU CAN TELL THEY KNOW BUT THEY ARE COWARDS!!!
I've been under this atrocity for 2 DECADES...the torturers are local LE and local court systems. 20 years w/o a DL and ive fought this time after time accruing huge legal fees as well aa FINES.... I'm a. Documented Chronic Pain Individual; divorced with a son on the Autism Spectrum-/PDD diagnosis.
I feel that in becoming invisible.
No social activity. Unable to absorb incoming information....and this post by Dr VAknin on torture and torturers drives everything home that time and illegalities has taken from myself and most of all my disabled son's lives.
This is true directed planned out psychological torture but how can I, a dysfunctional human being presently help myself. ?????????
I can’t not write my experience. Became afraid
exellent definition/thank you 💯💥
I cannot believe how accurate this is.
I honestly think part of the desire to bond with the abuser is the hope to change them, by merging with them, to open their eyes so the abuse stops. But it never does. They never let anyone in. They just let you think they do. Everything they do is a lie to only hurt you more so they can continue to watch and manipulate the show. They are sickest of the sick, most twisted, evil minds and the deepest depths of hell is filled with them.
when I was tortured for 9 months I found I cared more for them and went beyond logic to please them. They control you whole body and mind.
I had to beg for my life on several occasions, when I was a small child and as a teenager, yet whenever I bought these scenarios up I was told that I was imagining things, I thought I was crazy, then finally , after many years my enabler parent admitted that it was all true. Physical torture occurs long after the event and becomes psychological torture.
Thanks Sam you validated all that I have experienced, which certainly assists in the "moving on" process
I have suffered and suffered and I don't want to suffer any more.
Sorry about that many story yet on told. I was tortured more than what imagine
Please consider the 43 videos dedicated to precisely these topics on my channel.
I grew up with a cruel mother. Paedophiliac grand-father and grand-grand-father on my father side, a village full of unlisted incestuous & pedophiles.
I teach myself psychology since the age of 13 yo. And discovered your channel juste recently. It helps me to understand a lot better these cold and fragile psyches. More and more, the weight of theirs numerous crimes flies away from my soul.
Thank you so much Sam!! Thank you for everything you share. I know what it is to have Narcissistic traits (I think I might be Asperger as well), but after a life time of work on my own psyche, I did learn to Love my 2 sons deeply and worked on myself every days since they were born to grow old the best Mom I can be for them. And it's always a relief for me to observe that, despite all the traumas and abuse I've been through, they grew up being both young happy independent adults with purpose in life! They grew up developing healthy forms of individual narcissisms. Unlike me, which is the result of enormous amount of hours of psychology studies and applied it to my own life. But first, I had the chance to encounter Resilience in my early age, other members of the family shown me what a normal kid life was. And that this kid would have a better future!!
Thank you so much for this channel! Thank you, Sam, for being a Survivor!!
I'm speechless. I thought I was delusional. I know I'm being tortured and abused but even when I think it, another dialogue in my mind says I'm mistaken. Much like the narcissist makes me feel about every single perspective I have.
yeah. my parents destroyed me since I was a infant. the gaslighting, the isolation. was starved and kept awake at age 2 for 3 days so they could make sure I was asleep when they were going to suffocate their third child since he wasn't a girl and my father promised my mother she was going to have one.
I have written several e-books for victims. They are all available from my website.
Shamed of victims is painful. Thanks for helping
Brilliant. My father is an abusive full-blown BPD. I now understand him better after listening to your lectures
My example of 'torture' is being put in dilemmas, being bounced into catch 22's, constantly in psycholigcal ways being trapped by an NPD between the two horns of a bull with no way out.
A frightening video, Sam exposes the sometimes permanment resulting psychological damage, not limited to the decimation of self-esteem in the victim, and emotional damage that becomes crippling and life-changing, or as Sam put it, a "psychological death." Most victims of narcissists have already been groomed by abusive parents. The escalated
Emotiona damages are the biggest problems. Panic of move forward it takes time for gain fully confidence. I been through that . am afraid of remembering
What you say is very true. you are a very brilliant man
This is me.... I feel a bond with my abuser(s). I crave pain sometimes... Just to feel that I'm alive.
Dad was a psychopath. Coach was a narcissist. Doctor tortured me for years. I can't leave the house anymore. I need help.
I live out in the country alone and my Narc took advantage of that. If anyone came around he'd drive them away. He would get up at 3 am while I was sleeping and scream at me in a fit of rage. His abuse was mental torture and he used his size and strength to intimidate me by getting close to me- in my space. I likened it to living in a house of horrors- mental torture.
Wow ! You described me as a victim perfectly. I will definitely watch more of your videos. I learned so much about myself just now.
Sam, thank you for posting these videos. You have helped me tremendously understand the horrendous abuse that I survived as a child. I've been told by several therapists that what I went through was one of the worst cases of child abuse they've ever heard. People have told me that I should write a book...I don't know if that is healthy idea or not.
Do it. At least your pain will be in paper.
I don't recommend it. I won't go into the details but I wrote a book about an experience I had being subjected to a form of torture. The amount of thought you have to put into it, not healthy in the least. It resulted in a near on nervous breakdown - I got the book published but regretted it.
Have you filed for any type of disability for ptsd?
Most abusers are men and the majority of victims are women (though, of course, there are female abusers and male victims.)
Sam Vaknin what’s your link again ?
This info helps.
Time for some change.
Thank you Sir
This was the most specific I found. I will look again. You offer a wonderful work and presentation. Thank you so much.
And here we are!
your work is beyond brilliant Professor Vaknin.
It would be so useful to have a summary of the internal damage children suffer from when they endure molestation from birth, and then torture and molestation in Foster Care on top of it. Please consider posting on child abuse and it's impact, as well as the need to separate siblings who were trained to molest and torture each other.
I'M a spanish MALE VICTIM OF TORTURE AND CORRUPTION AND MORE THAN 30 CRIMES AGAINST ME IN MURCIA, SPAIN DURING MORE THAN 5 YEARS. IS THERE ANYBODY ABLE TO HELP?
That is why you must leave. I left my abuser of 17 years... It took seeing the affects on our children to give me the extra boost I needed. Good luck.
Some people took late decision of depart from their tortured. You are lucky for early run
sounds like he's talking about Army Basic Training, especially in the beginning
Sam, can you please, would you possibly, be able to do a video talking about how one recovers from torture having been a political prisoner? I was deprived of regular sleep in which I was awakened every couple of hours for months on end, kept in isolation, not knowing if it was day or night, was beaten, exposed to hot and cold, dislocated shoulders, starved losing 25 pounds in two and half months. Loud music was played, and the guards also worked on my teeth in the dental dispensary without anesthetic. My hair was pulled out, I was made to stand still for hours long... other times, had my arms pulled back, bound behind me for long periods of time... and horrible, heartbreaking things were said to me repeatedly. I want to be how I was before I was tortured.
samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html
Wendy I was the victim of torture in different circumstances, I wasn't a political prisoner, but the circumstances were unusual, I was detained against my will at gunpoint and it went from there. The main perpetrator went to jail for seven years, two others also went to jail, it drove me to the point where I ended up with epilepsy from this, it transcended PTSD, for 4 years I had to take tegretol until I was given the all clear to come off it. A nightmare. I'm sorry but being realistic there is no fast recovery from something like this, no one walks away without being profoundly affected, and I'd suspect your experience was far worse than mine because it was more prolonged than what happened to me. Mine was 31 years ago and as such it has faded now. That's the only thing I can say that may give a little hope. There isn't a fast track to recovery, it's probably just doing the best you can to live life, and time doing some healing. Just remember, life is good and there is a lot about life that is good, there would be people who care about you. Try and think about the good things in life, keep the one's you love close, it's worth being alive even though you've suffered immensely.
Thank you! This helps me understand some of my ex's behaviors and confusing orientations.
Your work in outstanding!
I now understand why I keep going back.. how do I break the chains?
So wise u r, and helping all of us. Bless you
Yeah, I was tortured. I did not want to become a torturer at any point.
Shake your reality to its core instilling a deep fear then once engulfed provides a savior for your new reality a false hope in this you are embraced in the perversion of torture
How??? I’m fed the fuck up !!! Mine is dhs government crooked shit medical neglect. I can’t work !!! I can’t leave my house n not worry about who is it n why ? N we my kids n I don’t feel safe here. . I been through crazy xs n lots of abuse in every way possible but this shit gone to far GANG STALKING 💯💯💯
Sam as a therapist who experienced 'abuse by poxy' all I can say is there is a God of the Universe...because abusers and malignant narcissists DO NOT STOP! SO when dealing with these things learned helplessness is almost inevitable sometimes but for a force superior to the intense motivations and at times institutional and systematic abuse...great video
A frightening video, Sam exposes the sometimes permanent resulting psychological damage, not limited to the decimation of self-esteem in the victim, and emotional damage that becomes crippling and life-changing, or as Sam put it, a "psychological death."
Thank you thank you thank you
Sam, what should one do if they are being tortured?
ua-cam.com/video/tvuTZT9vnJI/v-deo.html
My experience exactly.
Hearing such dictations is more torture for me. If such absolutes are know then the failure of continued CHILD ABUSES and more, that still exist, lies on so-called professionals who claim such enlightenment. I find that this man in the video, among billions whom I feel are so abused and tortured that they fail to see the abuse and torture they're inflicting on others, especially innocent and helpless children. I don't think any child wants to feel harmed, yet harm is almost always inflicted in return and/or is used as revenge on a child by others who feel harmed or judge that something was done wrongly.
From experience I think Bullying, Abuses, Torture, Hypocrisy, assumed authority and more are still being practiced, supported, permitted and when challenged more harm occurs. I hate it when others and myself speak in absolutes, and dictate what's true for others. I hate when people talk in manners that are incorrect because other possibilities exist that contradict what's initially expressed as absolute truth. Humanity seems too messed up to evolve for the better; I don't know anyone smart enough to understand what I'm talking about, let alone help. It seems to me that we can't agree on how to talk to each other, so I don't think people will figure out how to help others solve abuses, bullying, and torture and more that are still occuring and seemingly getting worse. What say you all?
@@annastone5624 From your comment and such a horrific reality still being participated in, perpetuated, and profited off of, I still don't see that you understand what 'm saying, even though you say hear what I'm saying. And are you feeding the monster by supporting so-called therapists profiting off of criminal acts - who don't work to stop and prevent harm? Are you a part of the problem? Sick people harm innocent and helpless children, many of whom, if not the majority of who become sick themselves and then harm innocent and helpless children generation after generation? - Is this what humanity is overall?
I don't need as much if any validation, what I need and innocent and helpless children need is to not be harmed by people who are seemingly incapable of realizing what harms entail. Results in correcting the mistreatment of people are needed, not more of what we have and don't have now.
Can you help or no? Does your and others lives have any meaning - knowing we aren't stopping nor preventing child abuses of so many types and are ruining so many children's lives?
Here i have a question for you. Do some women like to be abused when they have been abused in childhood. Do they except abuse as a form of love
My narcisist when farther that just devaluing me. When he changed into a girl (and changed his name), she said, "I understand you must hurt over the loss of James (he had become a gay transexual" the perfect woman?) but it was OK because she had lost "her DeLyla" And she was right. She has.
Just try to find strength to happy. If not you wouldn’t see the end of the pain
Exactly it’s sick
Can u do a vid about the way u are seen if the victim of a sociopath ! And how to brake free from them. !
You are brilliant . Do you offer counseling for victims
Exactly.
Curiousity → Fantasy
yeah
could a narcissistic mother hurt her kids mentally or physically
Narcissistic and psychopathic parents and their children - click on the links:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4727
God I can't handle it anymore I'm so sore
Delusions. Thanks
ID LOVE TO TELL THIS GUY MY PROBLEMS HE COULD HELP ME
So the psycho gets off knowing the victim creates this weird bond?
Or is this just a way to describe what pray and hunter go trough on a individual level?
Torture is only now, love is eternal.
That was one the respect I have for Obama and Biden administration for abolishing torture in America.
Thank you for your kind words. I offer email and phone consultations. Write to me for details: palma@unet.com.mk