Once again thank you for your explanation and clarity doing so. The way you present almost everything allows for the simple minds like mine to actually understand the way things work and in addition stimulates new ideas. Again thank you Rob
Thank You Robert!! You always make sure that I understand these things!! Sometimes other folks Overcomplicate stuff and my brain freezes up, going "No, Nope, Me no Comprehendé!" But your explanations Always make sense!!!😎👍
@@ThinkingandTinkering Lol!! Thank you for your kind , thoughtful, and, often humorous replies!! Alas!! I am going to have to wait a little bit longer for my 3D Printer!! (a friend* of mine lost her Nan,,and needed to borrow enough for flowers, clothes and a suit for her son.) *She didnt ask me,but helping her out was the right thing to do,,, ~As soon as she manages to get back on her feet I will buy myself my 3D Printer!! (WoooHoooooo!!!) And a load of things from your Shop!! *Carbon felt, neodinium magnets, graphine ink,~the list goes on and on!! Seasons Greetings, to you and your family. from Carlisle, Andrea and Critter. ...XxX...
Perfect explanation! Just saved me a ton of extra coil winding on my Ugrinsky wind wall. 12 blades with a top and bottom axial flux generator on each for 24 generators in parallel. The desired outcome is to charge a battery bank for emergency outage situations to charge phones and like small appliances. As always, I really appreciate your knowledge and insights. You really make learning and experimenting fun. Thank you!
That explains one of the most puzzling questions that I had about generation. Thank you for explaining the how and why of why it is the way it is. Often I find you videos very enlightening.
Great video as always Robert, I love the simple way you explain things. I worked in the alternator winding industry for 20 years, and although I already fully understood three phase winding, your explanation is the best I have heard, most engineers make it sound so much more complicated.
There is aways effort for you to make video your experiments. Having said that, I would appreciate seeing the 3 phase serpentine generator in action and most importantly seeing the output display on you CRO. That you for all you videos . 👏👏👏👏👍👍👍👍
Rippling could interfere with the car systems, but i guess mass production costs play a role too. To simply charge a battery with no gadgets connected... just a zener to avoid overvoltage?
Another sensible explanation. Now if I could only acquire your spark. And your ease of presentation. I’d be ahead of myself by far. Knowledge really is entertaining when we’ve got fireflies in a jar!
@Rob, I realize this one may be a tough one, but take some time with family to enjoy the holidays mate. What you keep giving us far out-shines what we give back to you. Enjoy Christmas Rob. I'll be looking for more of you next week for sure. Loved your explanation of the 3 phases vs single phase here, in that, maybe we should be thinking of filling that physical gap with more turns on that single phase, as opposed to wasting out time trying to properly fit 3 separate phases into that space.
Always wondered if there was any benefit to using 3 phase to generate, that was probably the best description I have seen yet as to what it is and why it's not practical to use to generate. Thanks for that, and as always keep tinkering!
There is another advantage: In Europe, we use 230V (Single phase+neutral) for weak appliances, and 400V (between 2 Phases) for heavy loads. So you can run 2 different kind of appliances on the same wires and dont need an special transformer to do that.
Yes- same in Australia, BUT - the Voltage is "the same" just with a different reference. (Neutral - Earth (1P) vs the other phases (3P) ). 240VAC(RMS) - 363VAC Peak - 1P vs 415VAC(RMS) 3P (Aussie Summer daytime -my grid is currently running at 253VAC... (256VAC is the Max allowable) - this isn't really an advantage in terms of most domestic users (UK especially) except for electric furnaces and Air conditioners which. (15Amps - a special outlet is needed here, can deliver 3.6kW, 3P 415VAC 3P delivers 10.78kW (Resistive loads - PF = 1.0) - Line to Line 415V is Line to Neutral 240V - that is the reference for power calculations. 3P gets 3x the work done for the same (line size) amps than an equivalent single phase voltage. (Naturally 415x "AMPS" is more power than 240 x "AMPS" (RMS) Voltage) At any (WYE Connected) 3P machine one can simply tap put a single phase 240VAC Active and Neutral -nice to be able to use the same hardware for lights, small heaters etc as in a single phase system. (Many internet users are USA based and they are confused as their 3P and "Single phase" (split phase has no bearing to each other 480VAC 3P has no bearing to 110/120 and 220/240VAC Split phase (ther eis a different transformer used with a centretap.) Rob also got the 4 Wire thing "incorrect" - for transmission lines (DELTA usually) there are only 3 wire sets - 3P Transmission is all Phases relative to each other, the Neutral is created at the Local Grid transformer in WYE (Star) configuration - We use Main Earth Neutral. DC transmission does not have a "return" wire - the earth is that - get ready for Mega Volts...
@@markgeurts258it's easy to have 3 phase in Germany because most places are close to a power substation with all three phases. Here in the US, most farms and many small businesses are not. If we need all three phases, we run a Motor-Generator phase converter off our 240V split phases.
@@kadmow i think the advantage is that i can redustibute the L1 L2 and L3. Each wire is secured at 50 Amp so i can have many groups so the wires doesn't get to hot 😄 But it is indeed not necessary...
Okay, for one, it triples your electrical frequency so you can either use a smaller bus smoothing capacitor or benefit from much lower ripple, which helps with regulation when you're converting to DC, even with a switch mode stage. Secondly, it reduces mechanical ripple, which increases vibration and wear on components causing them to fail more quickly. Ifnyou aren't driving a transformer you don't need the output to be sinusoidal, so you can alter the back iron or the winding shape to get a more trapezoidal waveform - which is exactly what car alternators do because they're trying to make good stable DC.
Hi Robert. In Denmark we have a three-phase system in our houses. We then divide this into several groups. For stove, oven, washing machine, dryer, etc., three phases were previously drawn, (N, L1, L2, L3 and ground) however this is becoming a rarity today when building new houses. This is probably because appliances are becoming more international and only use one phase. However, it has its disadvantages, for example, you cannot turn all the burners on the stove fully up and the oven does not heat up as quickly. However, we will not let go of the three phases as more and more people are installing heat pumps for heating in the home (7-15 kW) and charging stations for electric cars (usually 11 kW). Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Have fun.
I have 3 phase mate and in the UK that is extremely rare - I am not against 3 phase i just want to encourage folks to think - do they need it - you have a great xmas too - cheers
Great discussion Dr. Smith. This relates back to the War of the Currents between Tesla and Edison. If Edison has gotten his way, there would be a DC generating station about every 1.5 miles. AC proved Niagara Falls could power the Worlds Fair. What was funny was the fight over the light bulbs. Edison held the patent on the bulbs Tesla wanted to use. We can be such a greedy species.
Thanks for the clarification. I think the design of the coil already allows for efficiently capturing the energy of a moving magnet over it with its many humps, adding more phases is just adding more copper basically and unessarily complicated to seperate them like that for energy harvesting. Coincidentaly im learning how motors turn using 3 phases so i could maybe make a diy controller with just an arduino and a few mosfets. This helps and kind of confuses things but good to point out not to get confused. The phases in the motor are there to basically push it along so it keep turning and doesnt stop like what you mentioned with rotating the magnetic field is what they're trying to do with the 3phase motors. With power generation you already have something turning and just want constant current flow and the humps in the coil allow for that.
Our farm needs 3Ph for the grain dryer. Everything else does fine on 120/240 split phase (US). Easiest and cheapest solution is a Motor-Generator phase converter powered by both legs of our split-phase 240V lines. These setups are fairly common on US farms.
Bravo.......why I have three phase .. because I scraped a bunch of cnc machines .....three phase to dc controler for induction motors..... .....they also have higher voltage ....440 ac 3 phase .....do more on transformers 3 phase.....cheers
I just wanted to wish you a happy new year. and to perhaps buy some books from you, didn't have any money in the past, a lot has been going on. Some of these battery recipes I could really utilize, and truly I wish you would create a video series that I could purchase a long time ago. In any case, I missed your face and your brain. May this coming year bring you the health spirit and luck you need to accomplish all you wish to accomplish.
Automotive alternators use a three phase winding and send each phase through it's own diode for smooth output, I always figured it was best for charging as well, although I'm reconsidering my design thanks to that complexity you spoke of. I am just charging a battery after all, the sensitive electronics will all gobble up the dc battery juice after charges.
Looking at the diagram at 2:00 reminded me of a video I recently saw where the author insisted that 6 phases are better than 3 to provide a smoother torque on a motor. but as the diagram shows, 3 phase motors still can have 6 points offset by 60 degrees or any multiple of 3, even 81 as would be the case with the serpentine coils in your video, so 3 is indeed the best number of phases for AC motor.
To be honest mate - you will find folks arguing everything - and very often they have a point - but veru often they miss the point - as I said in the video the only reason for 3 phase is it is a balance between cost and complexity - if folks want 6 phase - knock themselves out lol
Hi Robert, always a pleasure to watch your videos.I have learned a lot from you.I am not electrician but I teach myself a lot.What is your view about a double stator single rotor, that is taking advantage of the two poles of a magnet.That's a project I am about to tackle.Thanks a lot.
Thanks Robert. I have been wondering myself about the efficiency of the single phase serpentine coil generator myself. Now I see that if my desired product is DC output to a battery, then 3 phase is not really that advantageous. I want to experiment with the Ugrinsky style vertical access wind turbine with self furling features for amperage control and variable permanent magnet excitation for voltage control. Chuck in Florida.
I am working on a water turbine project. I was wondering about 3 phase serpentine. But really what is needed is low ripple after the rectifier, rather than 3 phase as such. So I am considering 2 phase, to keep it simple. The output from the rectifier would go via a peak power tracker inverter, to feed the mains. The water flow has a potential of several kW.
Please consider doing a video on Thermal energy generator (TEG's) cascading for energy generation I was looking into peltier cooling the other day and learnt of the concept of peltier cascading where you stack the modules in order to achieve greater levels off cooling, up to -40 degrees in some cases The idea is you stack them with the cold side facing the hot side of another and so forth As I understand it, this will be applicable to TEG's for a number of reasons. The heat gradient is balanced between the layers in a stack, with each additional layer consuming heat energy that the previous layers would have wasted. Since the heat is balanced, this allows for higher heat tolerances than usual (Marginally perhaps) I think it would also be worthwhile to try two different setups, one where the modules are connected in series/parallel as usual and one where two modules are wired in series but not connected to others in parallel but instead wired to a circuit board or bus-bar and paralleled with all series connections, if that makes sense. So as to create two separate circuits. One internal for the series and one external for parallel My reasoning for this is that thin wires have higher resistance and lose energy more quickly to heat than large bus bars. Running the parallel through a thicker bus bar or independent circuit board should serve to constrict the higher amps to thicker copper, thus losing less energy
Thank you for explanation. Although personally i am still tempted dues to being tempted by ease of coil making.🙂 Serpentines are great but little bit problematic to form into final shape. Where with multi-phase generator it just might be the case of wrapping coil around some printed forms with same number of phases as lobes of a serpent. It might be little bit more material, but the end shape could be spot on. Or am i missing something ? Oh and Merry Christmas and all the best in to the new year to you Sir Robert and all the others around here too.
As usual a good video but I have a couple of questions First have you found a way of getting all three coils the same distance fron the magnets as I have tried a couple of configurations like this and the varience of at least one coil always being further away (normaly the last one fitted) produced lower levels of generation Secondly I understood the reason for using 3 phase in wind turbines was that they had less resistance so a lower wind speed start up that single phase of the same power and the ability to automaticaly brake the turbine in high winds by shorting all the phases to create a magnetic brake
I've (prior to this video) been working on exactly this (3-phase serpentine coil)! I'm having a hell of a time getting the 3 coils to behave well. Like you, I created them in CAD (SolidWorks), but getting them to behave in the real world the same way they do in CAD is not the same! My logic in why I'm trying to achieve 3 phase generation is overall physical size (energy density) and efficiency of material use. i.e., I only need to spin one set of magnets over 3 coils, versus 3 sets of magnets over 3 coils for the same power level. And being that the magnets are one of the expensive components, it seems like a good way to go. Thoughts?
if you take one big coil and 3 smaller coils with the same wire as the one big coil - spin them over identical magnet sets you will get pretty much the same power - try it and see.
Hmm- yes, however, there are many household motors, refrigerators, air-cons with fans and compressors, furnace fans, washing machine motors, dryer motors, power tools. Could they benefit from 3 phase in either cost or efficiency or features? Also a drone/quad-copter motor is 3 phase. Perhaps a nitro methane glow engine could generate 3 phase to run one of those with speed controlled by the NM engine? I have seen problems if one of the 3 phases in a supply drops out for whatever reason - so complexity issues for sure. I also know a few people that would love to run an old industrial 3 phase lathe in their basement.
3 phase is also used to reduce current per wire. EG if you wanted say 20HP from 240V rounding to 750W per HP that would be 63A in ballpark figures. If you had 240V 3 phase that would be 21A per phase. However 230V per phase gives you 415V so this reduces current to just over 12A per phase. Commercial jets use 3 phase to save weight. Military jets sometimes use 6 phase.
Great video Rob but I'm still not sure how the coils are arranged. If the coils encircle the magnets on the shaft, aren't they all being exposed to the same N-S movement? I don't see how they would be out of phase with each other. Maybe I missed something in the video so I'll watch it a few more times. Happy Christmas.
that's because you are thinking of it in terms of physical space only - think of it in terms of time - that is the time taken for one leg to pass over a magnet
@ThinkingandTinkering Ok, I can see that but a serpentine coil is a full circle so unless each of the circles are flattened and placed 120° away from each other, I don't see how it works. Another option would be to arrange the coils parallel to the shaft rather than at 90° but that would mean the magnets would also be arranged parallel to the shaft wouldn't it?
Would it work to wind a 3 phase coil using three wires at the same time. I'm suggesting having three spools of wire that you wind onto the form all at once.
it depends what you thiink of as 3 phase - 3 single phases al in the same phase - is what you would get - does that qualify? well in a sense i guess it does
@@ThinkingandTinkering Ah, I see. As I watched the video, it looked at first that you were stacking the coils on top of each other, when in fact you were aligning them side by side. Stacking the coils would produce 3 single phases in the same phase as you said, while placing them side-by-side produces the desired 3-phase output.
I am thinking more in terms of coil winding safety. Three four hundred or three hundred wraps seems less opportunities for disaster than one thousand wrap coil. If I get an extra 10% out of it, I'm doing the same work regardless. One question, were I to stack three coils and offset them by 120 degrees, but keep the magnets in the same line, then wire them up, would I get a three phase or a flaming mess?
It's been some time since I have been into it, but many homemade axial flux turbines are made as 3 phase, so there must be SOME improvement in generation, or least an improvement in the performance of the generator in some way...does it smooth out the performance (less cogging)? As I said, been awhile since I did research on it so I can't really remember the why it's done like that.
2 or 3 phase seems to be most useful in transmission, appliances, automotive, or high amps. Any rotational energy capture device of low enough power, voltage, current, is most likely going to be fine if transmitting power locally to a rectifier, charge controller, and battery bank. But should you ever need to work on a 3-phass industrial "trailer" or "conex" generator, it is definitely a plus to understand 3-phase, and a valuable learning project.
well i suppose that would depend - most folks just want power out of it and that isn't changed by much - if you slow down rotation you will decrease power
Someone might have a big welder that needs 3 phase power or other such of a device. Also electric "kiuas"(heater) for sauna uses 3 phase, at least here in Finland which usually have been wired into the wall so that there is no plug to pluck out, that I am aware about.
I would argue that there is a point to 3 phase in homes, not worth the trouble, but useful. Anyone who has had to rectify single phase AC and deal with the ripple of it would like 3 phase. I know this is more true with old linear power supplies, but even all but the technology switch mode power supplies still raw rectify the line AC. That first capacitor takes a real beating and is often the failure point. In industry we have some 3 phase in 24V 50A output power supplies and they never fail and the input components are much smaller.
Aw dang it, I got my lynching 10ga wire all ready to go.... well played sir, well played... But seriously, as a machinist by trade and hobby, I would want to generate 3PH to run my mill and lathe, which is a proper mill and lathe. I understand that your setup wouldn't be suited for that but the if the principles are the same then it's just a matter of scaling it up.
An interesting coincidence with three-phase is much as doubling the voltage will give you a fourfold increase in resistive power output, switching from wye to delta voltage will give you a threefold increase in power. The resulting e.g., 208V-delta from a 120V-wye system would run a 240V heater at a neat 3/4 of full power, while 120V would run it at 1/4 power. I don't think that's useful to anyone at the small scale, but it tickles me none the less.
@@ThinkingandTinkering I'm sorry to learn that. I enjoyed watching you building at your bench. Made it real for me. The dining room table just isn't the same. I guess I'm out.
Serpentine coils aren't always the best choice. Three phase currents will add together after rectification. I prefer to use three separate stators and rotors. That way each stator is thin and magnets on both sides enhance the output. I don't like serpentine coils for three phase all mashed together.
3 phase motors have no issues with knowing which direction to rotate. Without additional control circuitry. PWM speed modulation also works a bit better in multi phase applications.
@Vibe77Guy Yes, that IS correct. And they are very effective. I was More thinking from a standpoint that in My spplications i have not required a three-phase engine for many years. IT IS harder to rectify, harder to store and harder to invert. I would not bother but for special applicatons
I want to wind my motor in three phase for two reasons. First and foremost, I want control over which direction the motor runs no matter in what state the motor was turned off. Second, three phase controllers are cheap and astonishingly capable anymore thanks to rc drones. So, I can use an rc drone motor controller to give me exact rpm and power control over the motor I've built to my exact specifications, a motor that can't be bought off the shelf. And I hate to say it, but your diagram is ambiguous., especially when combined with your demonstration.
Let me share my vision of the future. Jobs as we know them are scarce, because AI takes over. So we construct large gymnasiums where all the apparatus are designed to generate power, and we work there, it's our job to generate power. We're not burning fossil fuels and we are healthier. So I want in on it on a residential level. What is the best design for home generation using pedal power? [What's that Mildred, you want a cup of tea? you better get on the bike then and boil a kettle]
On the single and e phase generators . the single phase needs more turns for cut in. Voltage and suffers cogging . In 3 phase is much reduced.. . Hopefully all enjoy Christmas
Once again thank you for your explanation and clarity doing so. The way you present almost everything allows for the simple minds like mine to actually understand the way things work and in addition stimulates new ideas. Again thank you Rob
I am glad you enjoyed it mate and that it was helpful
Thank You Robert!!
You always make sure that I understand these things!!
Sometimes other folks Overcomplicate stuff and my brain freezes up, going "No, Nope, Me no Comprehendé!"
But your explanations Always make sense!!!😎👍
maybe we just think the same way Andrea lol
@@ThinkingandTinkering Lol!!
Thank you for your kind , thoughtful, and, often humorous replies!!
Alas!! I am going to have to wait a little bit longer for my 3D Printer!!
(a friend* of mine lost her Nan,,and needed to borrow enough for flowers, clothes and a suit for her son.)
*She didnt ask me,but helping her out was the right thing to do,,,
~As soon as she manages to get back on her feet
I will buy myself my 3D Printer!!
(WoooHoooooo!!!)
And a load of things from your Shop!!
*Carbon felt, neodinium magnets, graphine ink,~the list goes on and on!!
Seasons Greetings, to you and your family.
from Carlisle,
Andrea and Critter. ...XxX...
Perfect explanation! Just saved me a ton of extra coil winding on my Ugrinsky wind wall. 12 blades with a top and bottom axial flux generator on each for 24 generators in parallel. The desired outcome is to charge a battery bank for emergency outage situations to charge phones and like small appliances. As always, I really appreciate your knowledge and insights. You really make learning and experimenting fun. Thank you!
it sounds really interesting what you are up to mate
That explains one of the most puzzling questions that I had about generation. Thank you for explaining the how and why of why it is the way it is. Often I find you videos very enlightening.
oh wow - cheers mate
Great video as always Robert, I love the simple way you explain things. I worked in the alternator winding industry for 20 years, and although I already fully understood three phase winding, your explanation is the best I have heard, most engineers make it sound so much more complicated.
Thank you so much, Robert, for your immediate reply to my question on three phase wiring! My warmest wishes for Christmas and the new year!!!
I hope it helped mate
Nice. Happy Christmas Robert all the very best for the New Year.
cheers mate and all the very best to you and yours
There is aways effort for you to make video your experiments. Having said that, I would appreciate seeing the 3 phase serpentine generator in action and most importantly seeing the output display on you CRO. That you for all you videos . 👏👏👏👏👍👍👍👍
will do mate
Thank you Robert for your time as always it makes imaging things easier, have a relaxing and enjoyable holiday period
Thank you mate and you too
Merry Christmas Rob! Always appreciate all of your videos and teachings!
merry xmas to you too mate and have a great hols
Rest in peace Patty ❤ Wow she was so young. So sorry for your loss.
We shall remember our loved ones in laughter & good times.
thank you for taking the time to say that - i appreciate it and yes she was young - i miss her dreadfully - all the best
Three phase has advantages when rectifying to DC as well. This is why nearly all car alternators are three phase.
Rippling could interfere with the car systems, but i guess mass production costs play a role too. To simply charge a battery with no gadgets connected... just a zener to avoid overvoltage?
ok - cheers
Merry Christmas to you Sir Robert! ❤
And merry Xmas to you too mate
Another sensible explanation. Now if I could only acquire your spark. And your ease of presentation. I’d be ahead of myself by far. Knowledge really is entertaining when we’ve got fireflies in a jar!
ain't that the truth mate lol - cheers
Thanks for all the videos Rob. Merry Christmas, and all the best in the coming year from Battersea Ontario Canada.
chers mate and i hope you have a great new year
@Rob, I realize this one may be a tough one, but take some time with family to enjoy the holidays mate. What you keep giving us far out-shines what we give back to you. Enjoy Christmas Rob. I'll be looking for more of you next week for sure. Loved your explanation of the 3 phases vs single phase here, in that, maybe we should be thinking of filling that physical gap with more turns on that single phase, as opposed to wasting out time trying to properly fit 3 separate phases into that space.
Bless your heart mate and i hope you are having a great xmas
Warmest wishes to you and Luke this Christmas.
thank you mate and all the best to you and yours
Always wondered if there was any benefit to using 3 phase to generate, that was probably the best description I have seen yet as to what it is and why it's not practical to use to generate. Thanks for that, and as always keep tinkering!
Glad it was helpful!
There is another advantage: In Europe, we use 230V (Single phase+neutral) for weak appliances, and 400V (between 2 Phases) for heavy loads. So you can run 2 different kind of appliances on the same wires and dont need an special transformer to do that.
Here in Germany it's almost always three fase 😉
Yes- same in Australia, BUT - the Voltage is "the same" just with a different reference. (Neutral - Earth (1P) vs the other phases (3P) ).
240VAC(RMS) - 363VAC Peak - 1P vs 415VAC(RMS) 3P (Aussie Summer daytime -my grid is currently running at 253VAC... (256VAC is the Max allowable)
- this isn't really an advantage in terms of most domestic users (UK especially) except for electric furnaces and Air conditioners which.
(15Amps - a special outlet is needed here, can deliver 3.6kW, 3P 415VAC 3P delivers 10.78kW (Resistive loads - PF = 1.0)
- Line to Line 415V is Line to Neutral 240V - that is the reference for power calculations.
3P gets 3x the work done for the same (line size) amps than an equivalent single phase voltage. (Naturally 415x "AMPS" is more power than 240 x "AMPS" (RMS) Voltage)
At any (WYE Connected) 3P machine one can simply tap put a single phase 240VAC Active and Neutral -nice to be able to use the same hardware for lights, small heaters etc as in a single phase system.
(Many internet users are USA based and they are confused as their 3P and "Single phase" (split phase has no bearing to each other 480VAC 3P has no bearing to 110/120 and 220/240VAC Split phase (ther eis a different transformer used with a centretap.)
Rob also got the 4 Wire thing "incorrect" - for transmission lines (DELTA usually) there are only 3 wire sets - 3P Transmission is all Phases relative to each other, the Neutral is created at the Local Grid transformer in WYE (Star) configuration - We use Main Earth Neutral. DC transmission does not have a "return" wire - the earth is that - get ready for Mega Volts...
@@markgeurts258it's easy to have 3 phase in Germany because most places are close to a power substation with all three phases. Here in the US, most farms and many small businesses are not. If we need all three phases, we run a Motor-Generator phase converter off our 240V split phases.
@@kadmow i think the advantage is that i can redustibute the L1 L2 and L3. Each wire is secured at 50 Amp so i can have many groups so the wires doesn't get to hot 😄
But it is indeed not necessary...
Okay, for one, it triples your electrical frequency so you can either use a smaller bus smoothing capacitor or benefit from much lower ripple, which helps with regulation when you're converting to DC, even with a switch mode stage.
Secondly, it reduces mechanical ripple, which increases vibration and wear on components causing them to fail more quickly. Ifnyou aren't driving a transformer you don't need the output to be sinusoidal, so you can alter the back iron or the winding shape to get a more trapezoidal waveform - which is exactly what car alternators do because they're trying to make good stable DC.
Have a wonderful Christmas Rob
you too mate and all th ebest
you are on my roster robert. your contribution is appreciated.
oh wow - thank yo mate
@@ThinkingandTinkering truly one of the best minds on youtube
Hi Robert.
In Denmark we have a three-phase system in our houses. We then divide this into several groups.
For stove, oven, washing machine, dryer, etc., three phases were previously drawn, (N, L1, L2, L3 and ground) however this is becoming a rarity today when building new houses. This is probably because appliances are becoming more international and only use one phase. However, it has its disadvantages, for example, you cannot turn all the burners on the stove fully up and the oven does not heat up as quickly. However, we will not let go of the three phases as more and more people are installing heat pumps for heating in the home (7-15 kW) and charging stations for electric cars (usually 11 kW).
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Have fun.
I have 3 phase mate and in the UK that is extremely rare - I am not against 3 phase i just want to encourage folks to think - do they need it - you have a great xmas too - cheers
Merry Christmas Robert, you are truly an admirable man.
Happy holidays! and bless your heart mate - cheers
BEAUTIFUL insight Robert thankyou for the upload ❤
cheers mate
That was a super informative video, thank you for that last bit especially. I guess I’ll be sticking with single phase
Great discussion Dr. Smith. This relates back to the War of the Currents between Tesla and Edison. If Edison has gotten his way, there would be a DC generating station about every 1.5 miles. AC proved Niagara Falls could power the Worlds Fair. What was funny was the fight over the light bulbs. Edison held the patent on the bulbs Tesla wanted to use. We can be such a greedy species.
Thanks for the clarification. I think the design of the coil already allows for efficiently capturing the energy of a moving magnet over it with its many humps, adding more phases is just adding more copper basically and unessarily complicated to seperate them like that for energy harvesting. Coincidentaly im learning how motors turn using 3 phases so i could maybe make a diy controller with just an arduino and a few mosfets. This helps and kind of confuses things but good to point out not to get confused. The phases in the motor are there to basically push it along so it keep turning and doesnt stop like what you mentioned with rotating the magnetic field is what they're trying to do with the 3phase motors. With power generation you already have something turning and just want constant current flow and the humps in the coil allow for that.
it is what i think for most generation cases but I am not against 3 phase I just think we should ask do we need it
Our farm needs 3Ph for the grain dryer. Everything else does fine on 120/240 split phase (US). Easiest and cheapest solution is a Motor-Generator phase converter powered by both legs of our split-phase 240V lines. These setups are fairly common on US farms.
Nice info cheers mate
Bravo.......why I have three phase .. because I scraped a bunch of cnc machines .....three phase to dc controler for induction motors..... .....they also have higher voltage ....440 ac 3 phase .....do more on transformers 3 phase.....cheers
cheers
At 64 years of age I've gone through many phases.
lol - ain't we all mate lol
A 3 phase motor will start without a complex starting circuit. Big saving. 🎉
yes - i did say that in the video
I just wanted to wish you a happy new year. and to perhaps buy some books from you, didn't have any money in the past, a lot has been going on. Some of these battery recipes I could really utilize, and truly I wish you would create a video series that I could purchase a long time ago. In any case, I missed your face and your brain. May this coming year bring you the health spirit and luck you need to accomplish all you wish to accomplish.
Thank you Robert (it's been a while since I thank you) amazingly I'm still here, I know you've been going through a lot, me too.
Great explanation, thanks Rob
cheers mate
Merry Christmas!
you too mate
Merry Xmas to you and yours Rob 🎄
you too mate - have a great time with your around you
Merry christmas to you and yours Rob. I love you man.
thank you mate and merry xmas to you and yours too
Automotive alternators use a three phase winding and send each phase through it's own diode for smooth output, I always figured it was best for charging as well, although I'm reconsidering my design thanks to that complexity you spoke of. I am just charging a battery after all, the sensitive electronics will all gobble up the dc battery juice after charges.
they do indeed mate
Looking at the diagram at 2:00 reminded me of a video I recently saw where the author insisted that 6 phases are better than 3 to provide a smoother torque on a motor. but as the diagram shows, 3 phase motors still can have 6 points offset by 60 degrees or any multiple of 3, even 81 as would be the case with the serpentine coils in your video, so 3 is indeed the best number of phases for AC motor.
To be honest mate - you will find folks arguing everything - and very often they have a point - but veru often they miss the point - as I said in the video the only reason for 3 phase is it is a balance between cost and complexity - if folks want 6 phase - knock themselves out lol
Merry Christmas Rob 🎅.
merry xmas to you too mate
Merry Christmas to you! 🎄
and you mate
Thinking of you Robert and Patti to xx
God Bless.
Kevin
God bless you too mate
I really like how the numbering on his videos was mixed up and no one cares, besides us, the hoarders.
feel free to renumber lol
Awesome 👏
Mery Christmas, Maestro!
lol - right back at you mate - have a great one
Urge overkill
Thank you for the wisdom at the end
Sometimes why is just because it’s fun
to be honest mate - if it's fun do it lol
Hi Robert, always a pleasure to watch your videos.I have learned a lot from you.I am not electrician but I teach myself a lot.What is your view about a double stator single rotor, that is taking advantage of the two poles of a magnet.That's a project I am about to tackle.Thanks a lot.
i am working on a model right now mate - video should be up in a week or so i would think
I wish you a happy new year Robert. By the way I'm not sure you ever got it but, I'm not Ed M. He is an acquaintance of mine.
Thanks Robert. I have been wondering myself about the efficiency of the single phase serpentine coil generator myself. Now I see that if my desired product is DC output to a battery, then 3 phase is not really that advantageous.
I want to experiment with the Ugrinsky style vertical access wind turbine with self furling features for amperage control and variable permanent magnet excitation for voltage control.
Chuck in Florida.
that sounds fascinating mate
I am working on a water turbine project. I was wondering about 3 phase serpentine. But really what is needed is low ripple after the rectifier, rather than 3 phase as such. So I am considering 2 phase, to keep it simple. The output from the rectifier would go via a peak power tracker inverter, to feed the mains. The water flow has a potential of several kW.
why do you need low ripple?
Please consider doing a video on Thermal energy generator (TEG's) cascading for energy generation
I was looking into peltier cooling the other day and learnt of the concept of peltier cascading where you stack the modules in order to achieve greater levels off cooling, up to -40 degrees in some cases
The idea is you stack them with the cold side facing the hot side of another and so forth
As I understand it, this will be applicable to TEG's for a number of reasons. The heat gradient is balanced between the layers in a stack, with each additional layer consuming heat energy that the previous layers would have wasted. Since the heat is balanced, this allows for higher heat tolerances than usual (Marginally perhaps)
I think it would also be worthwhile to try two different setups, one where the modules are connected in series/parallel as usual and one where two modules are wired in series but not connected to others in parallel but instead wired to a circuit board or bus-bar and paralleled with all series connections, if that makes sense. So as to create two separate circuits. One internal for the series and one external for parallel
My reasoning for this is that thin wires have higher resistance and lose energy more quickly to heat than large bus bars. Running the parallel through a thicker bus bar or independent circuit board should serve to constrict the higher amps to thicker copper, thus losing less energy
Thank you for explanation. Although personally i am still tempted dues to being tempted by ease of coil making.🙂
Serpentines are great but little bit problematic to form into final shape. Where with multi-phase generator it just might be the case of wrapping coil around some printed forms with same number of phases as lobes of a serpent. It might be little bit more material, but the end shape could be spot on.
Or am i missing something ?
Oh and Merry Christmas and all the best in to the new year to you Sir Robert and all the others around here too.
As usual a good video but I have a couple of questions First have you found a way of getting all three coils the same distance fron the magnets as I have tried a couple of configurations like this and the varience of at least one coil always being further away (normaly the last one fitted) produced lower levels of generation Secondly I understood the reason for using 3 phase in wind turbines was that they had less resistance so a lower wind speed start up that single phase of the same power and the ability to automaticaly brake the turbine in high winds by shorting all the phases to create a magnetic brake
❤Happy X-Mas! Robert❣
🎅⛄🎅 PS. What about 3-fased SSG on it to?❣ /Mikael
Happy New Year
Merry Christmas
Same to you!
I've (prior to this video) been working on exactly this (3-phase serpentine coil)! I'm having a hell of a time getting the 3 coils to behave well. Like you, I created them in CAD (SolidWorks), but getting them to behave in the real world the same way they do in CAD is not the same!
My logic in why I'm trying to achieve 3 phase generation is overall physical size (energy density) and efficiency of material use. i.e., I only need to spin one set of magnets over 3 coils, versus 3 sets of magnets over 3 coils for the same power level.
And being that the magnets are one of the expensive components, it seems like a good way to go.
Thoughts?
if you take one big coil and 3 smaller coils with the same wire as the one big coil - spin them over identical magnet sets you will get pretty much the same power - try it and see.
Hello Rob, what do you think about making a serpentine induction motor?
Hmm- yes, however, there are many household motors, refrigerators, air-cons with fans and compressors, furnace fans, washing machine motors, dryer motors, power tools. Could they benefit from 3 phase in either cost or efficiency or features? Also a drone/quad-copter motor is 3 phase. Perhaps a nitro methane glow engine could generate 3 phase to run one of those with speed controlled by the NM engine? I have seen problems if one of the 3 phases in a supply drops out for whatever reason - so complexity issues for sure. I also know a few people that would love to run an old industrial 3 phase lathe in their basement.
There are - but they are not the most significant load - it is like everything mate - it is a compromise.
3 phase is also used to reduce current per wire. EG if you wanted say 20HP from 240V rounding to 750W per HP that would be 63A in ballpark figures. If you had 240V 3 phase that would be 21A per phase. However 230V per phase gives you 415V so this reduces current to just over 12A per phase. Commercial jets use 3 phase to save weight. Military jets sometimes use 6 phase.
yes - for transmission
U look good Mister
wow - thank you very much
Good lecture and demo. Can multiphase AC be more easily used for voltage amplification than DC current? IOW transformers?
not really mate a buck boost circuit is going to do a good job on DC amplification
Great video Rob but I'm still not sure how the coils are arranged. If the coils encircle the magnets on the shaft, aren't they all being exposed to the same N-S movement? I don't see how they would be out of phase with each other.
Maybe I missed something in the video so I'll watch it a few more times.
Happy Christmas.
that's because you are thinking of it in terms of physical space only - think of it in terms of time - that is the time taken for one leg to pass over a magnet
@ThinkingandTinkering Ok, I can see that but a serpentine coil is a full circle so unless each of the circles are flattened and placed 120° away from each other, I don't see how it works.
Another option would be to arrange the coils parallel to the shaft rather than at 90° but that would mean the magnets would also be arranged parallel to the shaft wouldn't it?
Thumbs 👍 nice explanation
cheers mate
Would there be less of a logging effect with a 3 phase permanent magnet generator vs a single phase unit ?
Great vid as always makes me think
no - cogging isn't really a property of the wiring - it's because the magnet in the rotor interacts with the lump of metal in the stator
Would it work to wind a 3 phase coil using three wires at the same time. I'm suggesting having three spools of wire that you wind onto the form all at once.
it depends what you thiink of as 3 phase - 3 single phases al in the same phase - is what you would get - does that qualify? well in a sense i guess it does
@@ThinkingandTinkering Ah, I see. As I watched the video, it looked at first that you were stacking the coils on top of each other, when in fact you were aligning them side by side. Stacking the coils would produce 3 single phases in the same phase as you said, while placing them side-by-side produces the desired 3-phase output.
I am thinking more in terms of coil winding safety. Three four hundred or three hundred wraps seems less opportunities for disaster than one thousand wrap coil. If I get an extra 10% out of it, I'm doing the same work regardless. One question, were I to stack three coils and offset them by 120 degrees, but keep the magnets in the same line, then wire them up, would I get a three phase or a flaming mess?
lol - very good point - it is most frustrating to get nearly to the end and have a disaster!
It's been some time since I have been into it, but many homemade axial flux turbines are made as 3 phase, so there must be SOME improvement in generation, or least an improvement in the performance of the generator in some way...does it smooth out the performance (less cogging)? As I said, been awhile since I did research on it so I can't really remember the why it's done like that.
I hate to say this mate - but mostly it's done that way because a lot of folks just don't question it
Thanks for making this video : )
Glad you liked it!
2 or 3 phase seems to be most useful in transmission, appliances, automotive, or high amps. Any rotational energy capture device of low enough power, voltage, current, is most likely going to be fine if transmitting power locally to a rectifier, charge controller, and battery bank. But should you ever need to work on a 3-phass industrial "trailer" or "conex" generator, it is definitely a plus to understand 3-phase, and a valuable learning project.
absolutely mate - cheers
Mono-phase prevails !
well I am a fan lol
Would it not be beneficial to tie the outputs into a series so you get more volts if you have such a low output?
By all means
@@ThinkingandTinkering I wasn't sure if that was a viable option, but it looks like it's something that I can try. Thanks for the help on that.
Well done.
cheers mate
Please make that second video talked about at the end there!
oh ok - will do
Would the advantage be that the rotor does not have to spin as fast for an increase in voltage or current.
well i suppose that would depend - most folks just want power out of it and that isn't changed by much - if you slow down rotation you will decrease power
Someone might have a big welder that needs 3 phase power or other such of a device. Also electric "kiuas"(heater) for sauna uses 3 phase, at least here in Finland which usually have been wired into the wall so that there is no plug to pluck out, that I am aware about.
sure they may well have
I would argue that there is a point to 3 phase in homes, not worth the trouble, but useful. Anyone who has had to rectify single phase AC and deal with the ripple of it would like 3 phase. I know this is more true with old linear power supplies, but even all but the technology switch mode power supplies still raw rectify the line AC. That first capacitor takes a real beating and is often the failure point. In industry we have some 3 phase in 24V 50A output power supplies and they never fail and the input components are much smaller.
Yeah I can see the use - the problem is as you state it - hardly worth the effort - but certainly it can have a use
electric cyclemaster will be amazing sir and zamzam water
I am sorry mate - can you explain?
I love you Robert
Aw dang it, I got my lynching 10ga wire all ready to go.... well played sir, well played... But seriously, as a machinist by trade and hobby, I would want to generate 3PH to run my mill and lathe, which is a proper mill and lathe. I understand that your setup wouldn't be suited for that but the if the principles are the same then it's just a matter of scaling it up.
lol - cheers mate - and with a 'proper' lathe and mill you would want 3 phase - absolutely
I would love to see some stuff on generating DC directly, rather than AC. Homopolar generators, things like that.
basically use a brushed motor
i may well do - though i have done stuff - it's a bit gimmiky and not very useful
Have a look at the 6 phase ev nazcar so much power
seen it - cheers mate
I was told if I want to power an electric motor more than 10 hp I need 3 phase. Is that true?
I have seen a 100hp single phase motor - but it is generally accepted 10hp is a good limit
An interesting coincidence with three-phase is much as doubling the voltage will give you a fourfold increase in resistive power output, switching from wye to delta voltage will give you a threefold increase in power. The resulting e.g., 208V-delta from a 120V-wye system would run a 240V heater at a neat 3/4 of full power, while 120V would run it at 1/4 power. I don't think that's useful to anyone at the small scale, but it tickles me none the less.
Robert, I think you should get back in the shop. The dining room table just doesn't look right.
The shop has gone mate
@@ThinkingandTinkering I'm sorry to learn that. I enjoyed watching you building at your bench. Made it real for me. The dining room table just isn't the same. I guess I'm out.
Serpentine coils aren't always the best choice.
Three phase currents will add together after rectification. I prefer to use three separate stators and rotors. That way each stator is thin and magnets on both sides enhance the output. I don't like serpentine coils for three phase all mashed together.
nothing is always the best choice
Three-phase does not really Make much sense as You Said in normal situations. But for some reason they keep pushing qnd selling gennys for that
3 phase motors have no issues with knowing which direction to rotate. Without additional control circuitry. PWM speed modulation also works a bit better in multi phase applications.
@Vibe77Guy Yes, that IS correct. And they are very effective. I was More thinking from a standpoint that in My spplications i have not required a three-phase engine for many years. IT IS harder to rectify, harder to store and harder to invert. I would not bother but for special applicatons
I agree mate but i think people just think it is better - so the salesmen push it
I want to wind my motor in three phase for two reasons. First and foremost, I want control over which direction the motor runs no matter in what state the motor was turned off. Second, three phase controllers are cheap and astonishingly capable anymore thanks to rc drones.
So, I can use an rc drone motor controller to give me exact rpm and power control over the motor I've built to my exact specifications, a motor that can't be bought off the shelf.
And I hate to say it, but your diagram is ambiguous., especially when combined with your demonstration.
well that is one of the points of 3 phase - go for it
every alternator is 3 phase generator
yeah - sure
Let me share my vision of the future.
Jobs as we know them are scarce, because AI takes over.
So we construct large gymnasiums where all the apparatus are designed to generate power, and we work there, it's our job to generate power.
We're not burning fossil fuels and we are healthier.
So I want in on it on a residential level. What is the best design for home generation using pedal power?
[What's that Mildred, you want a cup of tea? you better get on the bike then and boil a kettle]
Audio has ECHO, bouncing off the walls and ceiling.
Just for good measure, most car altenators a three phase to my knowledge.
yes they are
On the single and e phase generators .
the single phase needs more turns for cut in. Voltage and suffers cogging .
In 3 phase is much reduced..
.
Hopefully all enjoy Christmas
cheers mate - you too