Lab Notes - Off the Shelf Catalyst Testing - Nov 11th 2018
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- We continue testing more catalysts for the sodium production reaction from magnesium and sodium hydroxide.
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#sodium
Being able to witness your journey to produce easily obtainable sodium metal has been pretty incredible!
Why thank you!
Trying out this newfangled UA-cam Premiere thing. Let's see if it works out or not. EDIT: looks like its "or not." okay, i'll stop doing them.
Please don't.
Maybe view Strange Parts' video on this feature and how it cost him so many views on a video.
Wasn’t this video up on Patreon?
What's the benefit meant to be for subscribers? This is the first video like this I've seen, and I'm just annoyed that I can't watch the whole thing.
I presume it'll go into sub-boxes as a regular video in a couple of minutes, right?
no offense, but don't do it. It tends to kill the video. I only came to post a comment because I like your stuff, normally I would have skipped on this. Why? Because I am on youtube to watch stuff on demand. Otherwise I'd be on twitch right now.
I have really enjoyed your lab note videos, being able to witness the process of solving problems has been very entertaining.
Ikr 😎😎😎😎
Yeah, in a sense it has even more value than the correct solution itself. Seeing people confront problems teaches you the ways to solve problems yourself.
Maybe livestreams instead of premieres. If people can watch Fish Plays Pokemon I'm sure they'd be someone watching tea tree oil distill over.
Yeah, give the guy his vst to change pitch on his microphone
Racemic Patchoulol apparently has a melting point of 56 °C, is soluble in ethanol, and insoluble in water. Instead of distilling it, maybe you could try recrystallizing it out of a water/ethanol mixture?
(like, mix patchouli oil with ethanol (not sure about the ratios, maybe 25/75?), heat up to 50°C, add water dropwise till stuff starts crashing out, then just enough ethanol to make everything clear again, and let it slowly cool down to room temp, then in the freezer for a couple days or so?)
I'd try it myself, but I have no mean of getting my hands on essential oils now.
Also, most of the other stuff in the mixture could be boiled off first.
I love the lab note style videos recently and am learning more than ever. I have been watching these videos since I was a kid an am now halfway through a chemical engineering degree and I must say these practical chemistry videos have helped me more than some of my college classes. These videos are a great life's work and I hope they live on forever.
11:06 honestly when I heard the phrase "and everything went perfectly" I was so happy. How long have you been working on this project now? Best part of a year?
Wonderful work! No way to thank you quite ENOUGH, so I'll just say thanks yet again, and repeat it now and then.
I'm looking forward to that final treatment, and still farther forward to what's next!
Wow, didn't expect to see my name credited in your video. Really made my day :) I'm really glad that I was able to point you in the direction of a viable catalyst!
I'm hyped for the final video but I could watch a thousand more videos of you preparing for it :D
95% yield?! Congratulations ! Persistence pays.
I've been in awe of this project from the start. It seems incredible that someone can produce sodium metal without resort to the electrolysis of molten salts.
lots of work in this one, interresting point of view to see how you do what you do.
If those 2 secondary alcohols were somewhat good, maybe menthol could work as well... but I guess tertiary ones are still the best. Perhaps, menthol could be isomerised to a tertiary alcohol with H2SO4.
I have loved following this series, the lab notes format is great.
NurdRage, maybe the oxygen from the manganese hydroxide bonds to the primary and secondary alcohols leaving the hydrogen and sodium behind and backflow the operation, just maybe, try to collect the gas coming out of the bobbler and testing it out to see what type of gas it is, just a theory tho.
It's been a journey. I'm excited for future projects!
Please try menthol as sec. alcohol. Due to its chair conformation, it should not degrade to quick. Additionally, it is readily available in pure crystaline for on ebay, amazon etc..
i've already been testing menthol for a couple of months now, i'll be making a video on it soon.
Butylated Hydroxytolulene's molecule looks cool. Also, my spellcheck hates it.
carboxylic acids decompose with bases at high temps. R-COOH --> R-H + CO2^
Much higher temperatures. That reaction is usually done by dry distilling the carboxylate/base dry mixture, I'd say that the temperatures are around 500°C.
I could be wrong though.
You’d see CO2 bubbling if this was the case.
@@ExternusArmy
CO2 would be absorbed and turned to carbonate in such extremely basic conditions
@@pietrotettamanti7239 *basic
Thanks for the correction, I was thinking of other stuff while typing the comment so I messed up😂
Wow, I totally forgot about this channel, My brother used to watch 7 years ago, then he died from an overdose and I forgot about your channel. I was still subscribed nut since the bell was not hit I never got any videos in 7 years lol. I was watching a Thunderf00ts video and your video was on the recommended. Anyway so im back now lol
The new UA-cam Premier "feature" is terrible and has resulted in nothing but tears for all the other channels I have seen use it. Please don't. It shows up in our subscription feed and looks like you have already posted a new video unless we are paying very close attention, only to be disappointed that it is not available for viewing yet, which only causes frustration, not the "anticipation" which I'm sure was the desired goal.
Don't understand half the words but still very enjoyable to watch
At least for the indeterminate time being, the premiere feature is... not a good idea. It's been really screwing up notifications, and for me whenever a channel I'm subbed+belled to uses this feature, the video doesn't show up in my notifs at all and the only way I'll ever find out something was posted at all is if it pops up in my recommends. One channel I'm subbed to has pretty much completely moved over to using the premiere feature and I never know when her new videos come out anymore. They barely show up in my recommends feed. :(
I'm convinced that UA-cam pushed a feature that is still very much in its alpha stages of development and pretending it's good enough for production release.
Excellent series on sodium metal production. I just ordered some tetrahydrolinalool, can't wait to try this!
I think they're a smallish company... They're probably gonna come in Tuesday and be like WTF are all these orders for tetrahydrolinalool about.
I misread "tetrahydrolinool" as "tetrahydrocannabinol." I got really excited.
Absolutely awesome!!! Thanks bud, I really appreciate all the work you have done and have contributed to science. I would love to do experiments just like this.
Unlike Norlimbanol, Kohinool's chain is highly branched, with each carbon atom having a CH3 group. Could that have had an effect of the (slightly) better yield? Do you think that a primary alcohol with a similar structure could have worked better?
it may indeed be a steric issue, so now i need to find a super-highly branched primary alcohol.
Thank you so much for the acknowledgement, you made my day! If you can't distill patchoulol, maybe you could crystallize it by refrigerating the oil? It has quite a high m.p.
Doh, not too fond of these premiers . You think there's a video but then you have to wait. :(
Lol, gotcha, i won't do them in the future. :)
You can also leave comments about how great the video was, before ever having watched it ! :)
and also
Chat !
Im unsubscribing from any channel that uses them. Bye
Alright bye, take care.
@@NurdRage by the way, love the channel. To be honest, I don't think the premiere is a big problem but i have heard that many creators miss or lose a lot of views when using this new funktion.
If you're bored you could try mixtures of different alcohols.
Not sure why it would work, I'm just putting it out there.
When I'm able to I'm donating to you.
Dear NurdRage,
can a process similar to this one be used in order to recycle lithium (oxide) from batteries?
Such as - Lithium-rich trash is deposited separately from the rest, the batteries which remained intact are disposed of into water, and you get *free* Hydrogen for fuel cells or other uses + Lithium Hydroxide + the work of increasing Temperature and pressure in the vessel. With a reaction process similar to yours for Sodium, we reconstitute the Lithium and use it for whatever else. Sorry for the layman question, this was probably considered earlier by people who know more about chemistry than I ever would.
That kohinool appears to give a better yield than the norlimbanol I would think due to it being more sterically hindered. This seems to hint that 2,4-dimethyl-3-pentanol (diisopropylcarbinol), might be worth a try. Of course that's not remotely OTC but it would still be of scientific interest. Your results with the secondary alcohols at least suggest that the α-elimination is a bimolecular process, perhaps with hydride being abstracted by a metal atom.
Thinking about higher homologues of this hindered secondary alcohol, *the hydration product of isobutene dimer* springs to mind. This would be 2,4,4-trimethyl-2-pentanol (and a tertiary alcohol because hydration would happen at the tertiary carbon atom). Excuse my ramblings!
Great news about the tetrahydrolinalool though!
Yeah boii, he is back!
Great work as always, but I definitely still think the theory is incomplete. The sodium product is far more effective at destroying any water present than the magnesium reactions, which shouldn't leave any to regenerate the alcohol from the magnesium complex. Your intact glassware testifies to the fact that there is no water in the hydroxide, which is where it is supposed to be produced.
It could be that you are actually catalysing the exchange of magnesium for sodium in the hydroxide, and then the sodium reduces the hydroxide to an oxide which has a much higher affinity for magnesium. In that path, the alcohol is never regenerated, instead staying as a metal complex. No water is formed after the initial complexing. That at least has a liquid as one of the reactants in the hydrogen producing reaction, unlike magnesium with wet sodium hydroxide.
I'm actually going to present an updated mechanism soon. Stay tuned :)
I had a thought a while back of using menthol as a secondary alcohol catalyst, it's pretty easy to get at a pharmacy otc at least in my country, might be worth a shot
nvm I just watched the next video
Oh, the smells from those perfumer’s alcohols...
Man, thank you very veru MUCH, it's such a wonderful work that you've done. And foremost, done professionally. It sparks some interest in building an amateur lab even in me who thought I've never have anything to do with chemistry! I wish you'd also do some professional teaching because you seem to have a talent for that.
It also sounds like hydroginating the distilled tea-tree oil might help it work even better. Regardless, I think you've given several paths for amateur chemists to produce Sodium metal.
Perhaps the _Tetrahydro Linalool_ was unpopular and of limited use; little demand but lots of supply. Your formula could drastically affect the industrial price of elemental Sodium and alter TL demand. I see it has most of its uses in scents and flavouring, with minor use in various industries... Now it can be used in the production of alkali metals. Amazing!
Amazing reaction
Will you add a timer when you speed up parts of your videos? (If thats a thing) I just wanted to get a better idea of how long distillation and other reactions take. And I understand that lab settings and environment may vary the results.
This might be a dumb question but isn't it ok if NurdRage were to get the patchouli oil as hot as he can with his set up and try that? I feel that even though you can't distill off the desired product on its own which would be ideal, you would still remove some of the impurities and make it at least somewhat worth your time.
Patchouli oil...gross. Dirty hippies messing up your reactions
Like, far out, man.
I know. I'd rather work with thiols than have my lab smell like the aftermath of Woodstock!
@@eclectichoosier5474 I'm eagerly awaitnig reports of your attempt to crack tris(thioacetone)... :D
@@eclectichoosier5474 Thiols...hey, thanks for reminding me! I have a few stink-bombs to make before Thanksgiving! Or as I like to call them, the Anti In-Law Devices. :D
@@AguaFluorida the only way I would go near thioacetone is...
Well, actually, I wouldn't go near it. I wouldn't touch it with YOUR hands.
Have you considered trying the same process with rubidium?
It would probably work even better.
And caesium. Itll be safer than the current method!
Mr Slinky dragon I don’t know.. caesium is *much* more reactive than sodium
@@among-us-99999 probably still safer than a caesium fire!
@@among-us-99999
The reaction is thermodinamically favorable, and should work MUCH quicker (in theory). We know from experimental evidence that potassium is easier to make than sodium with this approach.
This is due to the fact that the larger the ion, the more "shielded" the charge is, resulting in lower surface charge and higher soubility of the alkali metal alkoxide in the reaction solvent (which is nonpolar). Cesium, being even larger than potassium, should have a more soluble alkoxide resulting in higher reaction speed and lower operating temperatures.
Chemistry is a bitch though, so I don't know if this reasoning applies in reality.
Guess who just ordered 80mL of tetrahydrolinalool!
How about geosmin, trans-9-decalol, 1-Methyl-4-propan-2-ylcyclohexan-1-ol and P-Menthan-8-ol? Vendors can be found on Pubchem.
None of those vendors sell to me.
NurdRage 2-Pinanol and terpin probably work🤔
So forgive me if I've missed this, but have you considered 1-methylcyclohexanol? 25 g $100 USD from Sigma-Aldrich..
Try tetrahydrocannabinol, making sodium in a Canadian way.
its a phenol, so it can't be used.
I don't know if it's relevant, but dihydroterpineol is significantly cheaper in my region. Petrichor oil contains geosmin, also a tertiary alcohol so maybe these are good alternatives as well.
I fell alseep with my headphones on and this started playing, made me jump lol
I'm so excited =))))
If you were to heat 4 terpineol with an acid maybe you could end the double bond misery and a double tert alcohol could be formed? Also wondered if cetyl alcohol could be halogenated and grignarded onto e.g. MEK? Maybe even via lithium?
Check out the video just before this one where i try to make "terpin hydrate"
Sorry - pity it didn't work.
Awesome!
i will say that out of all the essential oils for catalyst, tea tree oil has got to smell the best :)
In terms of primary alcohols that might work what about about Tris 2 4 6 Tri isopropyl methylcyclohexyl alcohol
Booyakasha! I love your indepth insights into da chem bussiness
any tips on distilling things with higher boiling points than 100C when you can't use a vacuum? I've heard that I should be worried, but I'm not sure why.
How about Diacetone alcohol, its synthesis is easy and cheap, although i found some papers on its decomposition in alkali.
if its destroyed slow enough it should be viable (boils at about 160 though)
Being a complete newb in chemistry, I wanna ask what the difference is between CH3 and H3C. The components are the same but not the result? Am I reading it wrong?
Its the same thing. They're just written like that to emphasize that the carbon is connected rather than the hydrogens
@@NurdRage Oooooh okay :D Thanks!
also we didnt get the answer to why you made the potassium video private? or did we
ua-cam.com/video/gHgyn-wsxFw/v-deo.html ;)
It is so amazing that nobody on earth knew about The thing that he discovered
Can any chemist expert here explain what is happening when you pass current through lead and a strip of magnesium
When placed in magnesium sulphate and MSG, the mg turns into a grey turd, but the battery is chargeable until the mg disolves
You should try hydrolyzing 1-8 cineole (eucalyptus oil) and using the resulting tertiary diol. That would be easier than a hydrogenation, wouldn't it?
any procedures? I haven't seen a literature prep for it.
@@NurdRage I just saw the molecule while reading about essential oils and the structure was so close to a tertiary alcohol I figured I'd point it out to you. If that's not helpful then I apologize. I assumed an acid hydrolysis would be easy to carry out, yielding a tertiary diol. Do you start from literature on most of these projects?
I try to start from literature if its available. If not, i'll still do it if the reward is high. The thing is i've already found good off-the-shelf catalysts. So spending time on eucalyptol seems moot since its a catalyst that requires processing, And that's assuming it works.
when is part 600 coming out?
SOON
Hey I need some help I have been trying now for the past 7 months to make potassium chlorate whit no success I have not managed to produce 1 single crystal so far and honestly I’m really frustrated I have spent hundreds off hours and hundreds more research
In and trying everything I possibly can I’ve tried every single electrode I have ever heard mmo carbon and titanium and yet no success I have bought 8 different salts and re crystallized them and tried getting them as pure as I possibly can pls if any 1 has any tips or some thing to say I would love to hear it have a good day bye bye
Update I now have produced 3 grams off kcl03 I know it’s not a lot but I still did it I’m working on developing my methods the reason my healed was so small was based on the fact that I ran in to some production problems I toasted my dc power supply and made my entire house go black but anyways I’m so happy
This is super cool! I’ve been following this for a while and would like to try these things but alas I do not have a condenser. Do you think using a metal tube wrapped with Teflon tape stuck into an Erlenmeyer flask would work?
You don't need a condenser if you're using a heavy alcohol. Tetrahydrolinalool and 4-terpineol are heavy enough that you can do this with just the flask and a bubbler.
What about making the high-temperature way safer and higher yield? What about having the NaOH molten hot and dropping magnesium shavings slowly into it, or vice versa?
Mr. Nerdrage, i am not by any means a chemist. However i wonder/doubt but if you had a round bottom beaker/flask would the sodium solidify into 1 ball instead of many? Thoughts?
Was there a specific reason for using this quite complex method of producing sodium other than scientific curiosity?
scientific curiosity
Just curious, how does tetrahydra linalool vary from the linalool found in cannabis? I ask because cannabis terpenes are readily available and fairly cheap as well...
not nearly as readily available. In some countries possession of cannabis related substances is punishable by death. I won't encourage my viewers to risk their lives for something as trivial as sodium.
So how many Kgs of sodium do you have lying around now? Seems like after all this time it would be a lot.
All done but the fat lady singing. Congratulations on what you have accomplished, and a big thank-you from all of us amateur chemists who have benefited from what you have done.
When you do the final summary video, can you please revisit your procedures for working with dioxane. The last tutorial you gave on this had you distilling to dryness and then picking out the pieces of sodium. Now you are pouring through a seive -- I assume you are recycling the dioxane but you have not said as much.
Why thank you!
I am indeed recycling dioxane by distillation.
Once you have a nice 1/3rd pound or so you don't have any plans for...take disc of sodium and then take 5 paper towels with a 1/4 inch hole punched in the middle of each and get them wet in grease, then wrap your disc one by one with the hole being on opposite sides with each wrap. Put a couple of light rubber bands to keep paper towels from coming undone and then take to a deeep water hole and throw it in and wait. Make sure you have you canoe ready on the shore but do not throw the disc into the water while out in the boat or a bubble might swallow you up and drown you along with your boat! Nothing can prepare you for what will happen, no not the cheesy pieces your chem prof showed you in high school, it's got something to do with the pressure and intimate contact which compresses the hydrogen bubbles but it will look as if a submarine has hit a mine and exploded and yet only a mm or so of the exterior of the disc is used up ejecting the disc out of the lake upon which it then explodes properly into thousands of pieces and spreads over the entire surface leaving fresh fish and of course the belongings of anyone who happens to be fishing on the banks ripe for the picking, yes including their car keys!!!! LOL Hint: if you immediately launch your boat with a net in hand it is possible that a brave soul might see you and point the finger. However those brave souls usually run for hills right past their cars without ever looking back! ROFLMAO
Sizzlean
got a video for this? or at least a less opaque tutorial?
Hell NO! you obviously have not processed this in your mind yet, sorry it is opaque to you only, anyone who has played with large pucks found in the 1LB cans of Na can see what I said in their mind with perfect clarity. Nurd made it easy enough for you to make your own supply so get to it, then you please make the video and we'll see if you want to post it!
By the way this is not a tutorial, it is merely a dream SWIM had long ago.
Sizzlean
Picture this video (in your minds eye). There you are fishing on the banks of a nice quiet lake, drinking some suds and kicking back when all of a sudden a Humongous bubble filled with white smoke gurgles up from the depths of the water and out of nowhere a shiny metallic disk shoots out of the gurgling hole into the yonder and then seems to have an engine failure (since the first thing that goes through your mind is it must be a damn UFO!) and begins to drop in an arc and then skips a couple of times across the water and suddenly explodes into a thousand pieces with each one shooting white smoke and exploding as it hits the water until there are thousands and thousands of pieces of shiny metal darting back and forth and then there is silence....except for the screams of the panicking freaking out bare foot fisher-persons running through patches of goat-heads...but never bothering to look back as they've all seen too many scary body snatcher movies and surely know better. Once they reach the end of their oxygen supply they realize they left all the beer and car keys, yet they don't return for hours until the police tell them their is nothing and no signs of a downed UFO or little green men anywhere to be found and start asking them if they've consumed any kind of wild mushrooms or smoked something lately!
Then and only then ...if you can picture that in your head ...you will realize one video camera could never capture it ...especially if it's not pre-positioned and running on a tri-pod as the laughter would have ruined the video anyways!!! If I ever meet someone with great rendering skills I'll make the video you are looking for, but until then sharpen that imagination friend....and get up off the floor!
Here is a short video that will help you to understand what I'm talking about ua-cam.com/video/wAcotjjTj4s/v-deo.html
Sincerely
Sizzlean
GIven the fact that secondary alcohols worked, albeit with poor yield, would isopropanol be worth another look?
Also, with the near-quantitative yield that you got with tetrahydrolinalool, I wonder what kind of catalyst recovery you'd be able to get, processing the spent liquor. An expensive catalyst isn't that horrible a hit if you can get most of it back for another run.
@Justus Nelson Yeah, but Dr Lithium has a problem with buying from Sigma (otherwise, why go to all the work of homemade Na?), and from the labels it looks as if he was paying top dollar from some perfumer.
could tert-Butanol work? That substance is not that expensive. Here you can get 500ml in high purity for 15-20€ from a chemical company. Thats the simplest tertiary alcohol.
Or am i missing a reason why that wouldn't work? is it too short?
It works perfectly, but the fact that you do need to get it from a chemical company makes it not-amateur friendly. I want to find catalysts that are amateur friendly.
ohh, i thought your approach was to simply find something affordable. Theres some sellers on ebay selling it as well, anyone can buy it without any paperwork, but you won't exactly find it on amazon. Fair enough though, i understand what you are going for.
wow!
How about weak C-H - Acids like Aldehydes/Ketones? no elimination and a matching pKa ;)
what about diacetone alcohol?
What about Cyclohexanol as catalyst instead of aromatic rings? It should work simillary to secondary alkohols and is rather easy to buy.
do you know where i can buy it? i've been looking for it but can't seem to find a supplier outside of chemical supply companies.
Can alkyl amines work in this?
hmm, 4k seems to get stuck all the time :-(
Don't you have any palladium on carbon? It is easy accessible and you can use it to hydrogenate the double bonds
he talked about that in a previous video, he does not like hydrogenation as a solution for the amateur chemist.
Patchoulol is what I'm going to call Patchouli from now on.
Polyvinyl Alcohol?
Is is feasible to synthesize Tetrahydrolinalool from Linalool?
absolutely! But takes some work though.
Soooooo..........get ya tea oil before it too becomes more resctricted and the shelf price is jacked up 5 fold.
But what about hydrogenating tea tree oil with Urushibara nickel? Or you abandoned this plan?
still on. But i wanted to keep testing off-the-shelf the catalysts to be thorough. If i find something easily available and directly usable, THEN i'll abandon tea tree oil.
How hard would it be to hydrogenate linalool to tetrahydrolinalool yourself?
Any chance you will be doing a new how-to for the potassium oil/alcohol method as well when you redo the sodium one? Will the K version work with the same methods used for sodium, or is it even easier? For example, how about KOH, Tetrahydro linalool, Mg and baby oil?
@NurdRage ?
I wonder if alkyl amines would work.
Yeah but what is your proposed mechanism ?
it was shown a few videos back.
I'm actually making an updated video now with the new mechanism i hope to post soon.
Makes sense, sorry new viewer :P
Interesting methodology; when you mentioned drying, are agents like MgSO4 and the likes unavailable?
How much sodium have you created during this series of videos?
Have you considered adamantanol? It is readily available and inexpensive
really? where?
pleny of suppliers have it on alibaba
Unfortunately the shipping difficulties and minimal quantities make it less than idea for the amateur.
I'm not at all a chemist. What would be involved in hydrogenating the linalool yourself?
An oxygen free environment and probably palladium black with activated carbon, Hella expensive and it would require decomposing something to evolve hydrogen. Lotta very custom gear, atleast from the labs I've had.
(I'm only a third year undergraduate and there could be a host of other ways of doing this which I don't know about, please don't crucify me)
what do you think about using a centrifuge to purify the off the shelf oils? It might work, but probably requires speeds that may be difficult to reach.
Unless you invent new laws of physics, you cannot separate several substances that are highly soluble in each other by centrifugation. At least not in a centrifuge that fits in a normal room and that isn't also used for enriching uranium. :)
@@stamasd8500 yeah, that's why I said "speeds that may be difficult to reach." Centrifuges that can separate molecules have been done in the laboratory, as can be referenced here: www.thoughtco.com/centrifuge-definition-4145360
What about cyclohexanol?
Do you know where i can buy it? I've been looking for it but can't seem to buy it at a reasonable price
I was going to suggest salicyl alchohol but then "no aromatics" crushed my dreams
try
2-Ethylhexanol
That's a primary alcohol. It won't work
you do have a point. i might need to test it
What is the website he uses at 1:35?
New Directions Aromatics