Pilot here - can confirm. Setting aside the dynamic differences, the biggest difference in a practical sense is this: When you screw up your turn in an airplane, you *really* need to screw it up to get yourself into trouble (worst case, a spin), and even then you can recover it. You screw up on a bike, you're in a lowside, highside, run wide into traffic or off the road. It's part of why I can go out and practice turns in my plane over and over and over and get better - there's very little consequence to getting it wrong (provided you're not close to the ground). That being said, this channel is the closest thing I've found to a flight instructor, except for bikes. Maybe one day I can take Mr. CanyonChaser out to teach him some basic aerobatics :)
This just killed every useless debate in every thread. Thank you! In my never ending pursuit of going faster safely, I have experienced advice from legitimate verified experts. Only to have 2 crashes in the same turn on the same track in the same conditions. That tough me that even the best advice is well intended, but can have bad results. “It Depends “, is the only answer that is truly accurate. Thanks for another great video 👍
YES!! I don’t want to be overly critical but I was working with another coach. And the student came up and asked “what gear should I be in in x corner?” The other coach just dived in. “You need to be in x gear and then brake to x marker and then punch a counter steer right when the bike lines up with the third post on the other side of the field…” And I was like “whoah whoah whoah”. What bike? What speed? Spring or summer? Which tire? How many laps into the session?
I've learned a lot about riding from books, but only being able to relate by actually riding. None of it was by rote, what a good point. Your passion, competence, and communication skills continue to help and inform us all. Thanks!
Great episode. I've strained and had riding buddy friendships ended over this. There isn't a list that if you just do, you'll be Pecco. It is your choices in each moment that make you good and safe. Adaptable for the win.
I *always* appreciate the WHY. I teach my kids the WHY behind something. It's almost as important [and sometimes more so] than the WHAT. Great info, thanks!
Also, I find by understanding the WHY it helps me remember the HOW. By having a greater knowledge behind a subject helps me remember the basics or initial concept.
@@deanmsimpson Heck yeah! Especially with motorcycling, it lets you make tweaks to your riding here and there to make the bike do the thing you want it to. You know why something on the bike reacts the way it does, so you can manipulate it better.
I love this video! I want more content like this. Mastering riding is all about having a multitude of techniques that have been learned over time, then blending those tools together based on changing road conditions.
I tell beginners to spill or lose or reduce their speed before the curve/bend. That's 1000 times more important if you've NEVER taken that curve before, but even a familiar curve can have roadkill, sand, an opposite direction vehicle going wide, an accident, so get rid of that speed before the turn. Beginners tend to believe in their traction and lean right up until they are in the curve, where, as a beginner, it may be very difficult to get rid of the speed they no longer want, usually because they have now fixated on where they fear they will end up rather than on where they want to go, usually followed by a fist full of front brake.
Setting entrance speed is critical but I think we get it wrong with the whole “before the corner” bit. We slow until we are happy. No matter where in the corner that is. Abruptly grabbing the brake mid corner is mostly caused when riders think they must be completely off the brakes before tip in.
Wow. Good stuff. You described exactly how I've been riding since the early 80s. I've done it so long it's almost all muscle memory. This is the best articulation of how I ride and how I taught people to ride. I became an MSF instructor in 1984 at the age of 18. I think I am still the youngest MSF instructor ever. Anyway, terrific vid.
That's a well informed and highly functional approach to prioritising one's perceptions and focus. Thank you so much! As a fiddle player (Irish Trad), I was once given similar advice re perception and focus: I was advised that in music there is only tone and rhythm (that's not the same as being in tune or in time). I was told that if my playing is going to pieces, just concentrate on one or the other (one cannot do both simultaneously) and the playing would sort itself out. I found this advice to work like magic. I may only be an amateur fiddler, but when I apply this practise to my playing I now easily slip into the 'present moment', the 'here and now', that wonderful intuitive, spiritual place. So now I'm wondering if there is tone and rhythm (or some other biking analog such as composure and rhythm) inherent in the job of identifying 'where one is' and 'where one wants to be'? Probably.
I love this observation. I work 4-6 hours a day on a motorbike and my thinking is always where am I going next? What is my goal, what risks can I see and most importantly what risks can't I see. I'm normally working at 70%, being polite to traffic but sometimes I have to give it 100% just because it's so good to hit that groove😊
I learn my riding by riding. I follow the speed limits in general and cruise rather than having a speed mindset. I try different things each time I ride and focus on being in control and not coming into contact with any object. So far so good after 13 years of riding.
Have you done a video that really went into detail on Neutral/Maintenance throttle ? I don’t think so ? Would be a great topic - help with the over-slowing thing and hearing how to fit it in with trail braking etc would be fascinating ..
So true! A few months ago I crashed my bike when I was trying to follow to the best of my ability what I had been taught over the past two years. Now I readily accept my responsibility, but after the accident I thought along what you are saying. I had it drilled into my head that when cornering don’t look anywhere but where you want to go. It may have helped if someone had said “at the same time, don’t loose track of where you are and what is around you.” I was so focused on the left green turn light and the median at the end of the street I was turning onto. I lost track of the median that ran along side me and I crashed into it.
I had been out Motocamping (so the bike was loaded up) and took a detour home knowing that a road could be quite fun on a bike, but had never tried it. That road is indeed much more fun on a bike than in a car! However there was extra weight up high on the back, so dynamics were different to what I would normally be used to on that sort of road, and it meant I had to do things to make it feel right in the never-ending left right left right wide and smooth and grippy surface... It was more about weight distribution, changing the grip levels (that were out of whack because of the luggage) and this meant using the brake in ways and places I wouldn't normally do, and even using the brake and throttle at the same time to adjust the level of grip each end had (it only takes a very little amount of brake bring the centre of gravity forward, and keep it there, and it really depended on what was happening as to whether I used the front or rear brake, because they both do different things, sometimes It had to be the rear brake only, because using the front brake increases the sideways load, but can't bring the weight of the luggage pushing down on it when in a turn, but the rear can shift enough weight forward to have extra downward pressure on the front without increasing the grip requirement on the front tyre. This is hard to explain... in the wet we know that if we hit the front too quickly it will lock up, and it needs to be more gradual to place more downward pressure before the tyre has more grip and can handle enough brake pressure to add even more weight and downward pressure... entering the corner wasn't much different, but it required more time and lean, maintaining grip was about using the tyre with the most grip to add some to the other! each corner was different (yet everything flows nicely on that road) it's not just a slalom, there are rises and dips, multi apex corners and changing camber, but the visibility is good, there is plenty of room, plenty of grip, plenty of line choices... it's like some aliens picked up a high level racetrack and moved it into the mountains. it was the perfect road to discover what brake force could do for the balance of the bike right the way through the corner!
What a relief to hear/see "evidence based" applied science/physics to riding. I am so sick of stupid rules thrown around on UA-cam with some knowledge and no understanding. You're getting it right. Keep on riding.
I use to fly a Cessna years ago and consider riding motorcycles the closest thing to flying. Motorcycles may have more angles but gaining and loosing altitude is a big deal.
Great advice, ride based on direction and ride based on your comfort level. Oh, and don't ride at your limit when you cannot see what is coming up. My plan is to be an old rider with 'nothing to prove.' Been there and done it.
I totally agree with title. I am a pilot. I also agree with your overall message here, I've been thinking about this a lot, as I ride canyons around SoCal on my new CBR 600 RR as a newer rider. I find the UA-cam content problematic - like you said; "It depends"
Love your videos and your tips keep em coming mate .watching these always gives me a reminder to assess my rides throughout the year even though ive been at it over ten years. Safe riding brother from the UK 🇬🇧 🇺🇲
I really like the approach "it depends" to most questions about how to do this and how to do that on a motorcycle... but as a newbie with only 6 months riding experience (i'm excluding the winter months from Nov til now), this past summer, i focused on the "how" rather than the "why" simply because i really wanted to know all the basics + control my bike fully before "moving on" to more complex things. Like trail braking... never got to try it yet as i never take corners faster than maybe 5-10 km/h above the posted speed limit, that way, i can fully control my lean angle. Question for you Dave : typically, is there some sort of time frame before an average rider who just wants to ride for the freedom of it and not for the "thrill of speed" can move on from the "how" and to the "why" ? Or did i (maybe) miss-understand something here!? Thanks ✌😎🖖
The How works for the mechanical stuff. How to shift, how to rotate the throttle. You already know all the how's. But the sooner you move into riding the bike based on direction - not even trail braking as a concept, but making decisions and choices based on where the bike is pointed, and where you want it to be pointed the better off and the more your riding will start to improve. As you correctly say, it's not about speed. But it is about precision. Putting the bike precisely where you want it.
@@CanyonChasers thank you Dave for having taken time to answer. It's appreciated. And thanks for the precision about the how's. I understand better. The 1st half of summer 2024 was definitely about the how's... learning to control my bike (like friction control and downshifting at the right times) but for the 2nd half, i can say that i was a lot more in control of the bike and not the other way around like in the beginning. And my riding did improve because i was indeed focused on precision (not speed) and intend on continuing to improve. And with tips + good advice from professional riders such as yourself, hard not to improve!! Keep up the good work 👍😎👍
Thanks Dave, I'm now going to become a Y and not a How. When you consider what you say it makes it make sense. As I've said before your videos make everyday a school day. Stay safe and warm. Take care and ride well, once it warms up. 🤔 🤓
Excellent video. I never learned much of anything by rote, probably why I struggled in school so much where that is so much the norm. I learned how to ride a motorcycle by myself, no schools in existence 60 years ago. It has surprised me that what you teach is much the same as I learned in the school of hard knocks. An example was in the early days guys would gasp when they heard I used the front brake in corners. Gasp! I an rooting for Jorge on his new ride.😊 I ride Moto Guzzis so a natural choice.
@CanyonChasers I don't have an Aprilia but two Moto Guzzis so I was kind of thrilled to see him going to Aprilia. It's going to rankle Ducati to see the No 1 plate riding around on an Aprilia. Hopefully Jorge can dial in his new bike.
Rote doesn't leave a lot of wiggle for forward or out-of- the-box thinking. I prefer the "Here is how to critically think, you figure it out. But, if you like, I can give examples from my limited experience." My kid just rear-ended a car. He said that I "many times emphasized that, in your experience, where one is going is the most important, what's happening behind you is second, and what's happening to the left and right is third, and overhead is forth. At no point is your dash, phone, or a pretty girl on the sidewalk, important." And he further stated "I had to rear-end a car to admit you were right." And I said "If only you could have done that 'proving' with your own motorcycle, not mine."
Darn, but I'm really glad he's OK. I'm sometimes amazed we (most of us) lived through those early years. Even so I had to be reminded a couple years ago, checking the map to see how far to the campsite turnoff..I'm just glad the horse thar suddenly appeared in the road went one way and I went the other. No more phone fiddling for me, I'll pull over.
3:47 I totally disagree, with all respect. The conditions on a race are way more manageable and easier to understand than on the Road. Race tracks are just a few km long, with just meters on altitude and everyone ride it 100 of times over and over again (virtually and physically) before the race even started. The track is so compact that the micro-climate difference almost never radically differs from each other. Meanwhile on the road we easy travel 50km. We climb up to 400mts of altitude, we never repeat a curve and the climate can change extremely. We should never take MotoGP as an example. Another aspect to consider is, before the rider jumps on the bike, this MotoGP bike has been meticulously inspected by several people: engineers, mechanics, riders and bike experts. Meaning the bike is „every time“ in perfect conditions. Let’s not mention that everyone riding near you knows how to ride. Anyways, this was a great video and I’m a big fan. I truly think every rider should watch this channel 👍 keep rocking!
I really like what you just said thank you so much. I shared your videos a bunch i teach some basic riding skills and a few advanced but I know riders how say I’ve been riding for 20 years and they only have 1 year of actually experience they’ve been repeating the same shit year after year. And they don’t practice the riding skills are perishable. If you don’t practice, you lose it Everything you learn on the track except for speed comes out to the street. Nothing you know on the street goes to the track. I really love your videos You help me so much when I see like this I share them Thank you so much
@@CanyonChasers Flipside of the coin here. I can (somewhat) work with inches, miles and pounds but still to this day, whenever I hear "it's like 70 degrees" I imagine spontaneous combustion 😁
@@exothermal.sprocket Honestly, and this might just be my algorythm, but ALL I get is feet, Fahrenheit and ounces 😄But the real answer to your question is because America is the odd one out 😁And also because the imperial system is a mess because 1 kilometer is 1000 meters but 1 mile is 8 football fields, 38.72 yards, 2 cups, 4 ounces and 1/192983 of an inch (rough estimate)
65 years and an unknown (many , many) amount of miles on stuff with two wheels and a motor and I'm still learning ! Can't wait to hear what people that are both pilots and motorcyclists have to say about this...
It’s hard for me too. I go really slow and talk to smarter people than me to make sure I got it right. I’ve done a few that go deep. Like our countersteering video. Did you see that one?
@CanyonChasers yes I did and it was excellent as always. Your ability to present information in a clear and concise manner is a gift. Maybe one day I'll be able to attend one of your classes.
One of the reasons I ride is the fact that it is a dynamic skill to master. I know that I’ll never master it, and that’s why I like it. Most pilots ride bikes…
thanks for doing this! Maybe now people will stop repeating TWOT mantra regarding “roll on though the corner”. I’m just a bit pissed that we, as community need so much effort to get away from bad habits and old beliefs to new ones. Just like even 2 years ago people were against trail braking, but now every youtuber is preaching that’s the best thing…
nice info sir!❤ how about breakin' down the riding style of MM93? i'm just so curious also on his approaches to corners, his attacks and his lines..maybe you can do it for your riding students..thanks!❤❤❤
Ooh. That would be fun and super challenging. He has a very unique approach. And he’s still racing so information is limited. But often we can get a lot of info from retired riders. I’ve been pulling a lot from Casey Stoner because he’s extremely good at articulating what he did.
Anything that takes motor-coordination, physical strength or skills require practice. Knowing how things work is just the first step to later be able to execute. It is like shooting hoops in basketball but much more complicated in motorcycling. And it is important to recognize that not everyone can do it, just like I'll never be a good basketball player. 😞
I was in air force in 2005. 5 pilots died on sport bikes within a 2 year period. The base Commander temporarily banned all pilots from riding a motorcycle.
Exactly. 'Institute of advanced motoring': a collection of folk who really want to learn the rules and demand everyone follow them, rather than having to think. Military mindset is what you rely on when you can't think for yourself.
@9:30 Pecco does not apply brakes slowly. When racing in top level, typical time between full/maximum throttle and maximum brake pressure is /should be somewhere around 0.1-0.2 seconds. It is very abrupt action compared to typical braking while street riding. That is maybe the biggest difference between street riding (street bike with stock suspension) and track riding (suspension built for track riding).
How he loads the brake - the first five percent is very different to how he builds pressure (and how quickly he builds pressure) once he has load. You can see it pretty clearly on that graph. It's amazing how talented these guys are. Stick around, this is going to be the topic of the next video (probably) :)
There is a Pramac racing video Pecco on the bike at Misano camera facing front tire. Look how he loads up front at the end of strait. Not abrupt at all very smooth same thing opening the throttle
As soon as a rider releases throttle, at least 50% of the weight/"load" is already on the front tyre. That is why you can use front brake very abruply. That is why there is no need to do any kind of "first five percent". That "first five percet" is just one of those old total bs legends, which is kept alive by people who want to believe in it. And when they believe in it, they want to see all kind of proof of it everywhere. Just get actual brake pressure data from multiple fast race riders who are good on braking zone, and compare data to amateur/ novice racer data, and you will see the proof with you own eyes. Or if that is not possible ask someone who is working with race rider data/ who has acces to race rider data.
We should know our limits, and the bike's limits. That's why everyone should practice in a controlled environment. Racers are within 99%-100%, as they have to be, sometimes push too far and can save, or not. On the road, we should maintain 50-70%, and leave the rest for overhead, for when (not if) a phone fixated truck driver leans into our lane, or there is an oil spill, grass, tumbleweed, fallen cargo in the middle of a corner. Good news, most of our limits is by far exceeded by the bike's. A good lesson, if you have a racer friend, even an amateur one, ask him to ride your bike a little bit to see how much potential is still there. Then, if you're all there, take some lessons. :D
Your point still stands, but an Aircraft has 8 points of freedom, 10 if you use a glider (you can elevator up and down on an air wave/thermal without pitch, not moving forwards or backwards, same at kiting). Everybody, seems to forget Side Slip. You can actually move the aircraft sideways, a skill good pilots develop (former Glider Pilot). You do have more freedom or axis or movement in a bike, even though it's on a fixed plane (pun intended). Though put a powered pilot, in a non-powered plane, and they really discover that extra sideways axis their not using!
Isn't a side slip just combining a slight combo of roll and yaw? Airplanes move about by essentially compressing or stretching gaseous molecules. They achieve thrust by compressing gasses backward and having a reactionary forward movement. If they side-slip, something has to cause a compression of gasses to the left to move right, or to the right to move left. Yet the plane cannot stay in the sky unless it's compressing gasses beneath it at a sufficient rate to balance against the acceleration of gravity.
@@CanyonChasers It all depends on how you model things. Form a structucal perspective, every non-rigid object has infinite degrees of freedom, but practically if you want to bend a ruler you will have an easier time doing it in one direction than the other two, so it makes sense to consider the easier to move mode as a degree of freedom (dof). For mechanical systems we like to consider joints as places where the system can move, so we can split the motorcycle into 4 rigid bodies connected by joints that allow motion, thus having 3 degrees of freedom as at the beginning of the book, or we can dive deeper and end up with 11 dof, because we consider other non-rigid joints such as suspensions and tire deformation. An airplane has 6 dof if you model it as a single rigid body. It can mode in 3 directions, and rotate around 3 axes. If you then start to consider that the control surfaces are better modeled as separate bodies since they can rotate independently, then you'll have 1 additional dof for each of them. If you then add things that flex such as wings (as we did for tires and suspensions), we get even higher. For fighter jets you can also have directional thrust, which gives 2 more dof.
There is a difference between the skill of and the art of. Rote is skill, intentionally and thoughtfully going off script when applicable and beneficial is the art of. The art of starts to dissolve rote into nuance.
Your tutorial is excellent and so much appreciated in expanding one's skill set with common sense physics knowledge you explain in simple terms. You explained well how varied riding techniques are allowable as dictated by speed, turn radius, road surface, weather, and the list is long. The fundamental take away for me from your instructions was to always see your exit before increasing throttle and you're ready to lose lean angle.
Man. Your comment gave me goosebumps!! As a community and statistically, we energy far more corners than we exit. Even if it was ugly, if we make it to the exit, it’s all good. What’s the old pilots saying? Any landing you can walk away from is a good one. We can apply that to us. Yeah?
What we do is more complex than flying a fighter plane? Well, I guess I have no reason to join, or feel bad about missing my opportunity to join, the Air Force.
After decades of riding motorcycles with some racing involved I decided to get my pilots license. I figured that flying would be easy compared to riding. In retrospect I have to admit that I was wrong. This is not to take anything away from motorcycling. I owned an old tube and fabric piper so I can't comment on flying an F-16 but I suspect that the F-16 is another order of magnitude more difficult to fly. I'm curious why the author of that book says a MC has eleven degrees of freedom but I don't know that I want to go to the effort of buying and reading it just to find the answer. Maybe it's on the internet somewhere. I made this short video for a Flying Magazine contest. ua-cam.com/video/x_8defY71iM/v-deo.html
Don't you know the real solution for being stuck in your riding career, is buying 1200 dollar upgrades? Trading for another bike? Adding horsepower? Building spec sheet Xcel files and comparing data? I would also put motorcycles in this: "Forget mysterious dark matter and the inexplicable accelerating expansion of the universe; the bicycle represents a far more embarrassing hole in the accomplishments of physics." -Michael Brooks, quantum physicist
Thats funny i no driver's license no motorcycle schooling and still ride a motorcycle to work everyday. And you say its harder than flying a fighter jet ! 🙏🏾🤣 i have 1 1/2 half motorcycle driving experience.
Absolutely disagree with the premise. Racing technique is optimized to be fast and not to be safe. Racing riders crash A LOT. Street technique needs optimization to be safe, and that involves a whole set of different skills, often opposite to racing technique
The bigger problem is the amount of imbeciles that want to learn performance riding on the street. Pushing the limit, or even to the edges of it, on the street almost always leads to disaster sooner or later. If they did this at a track, it would allow the skills to develop more safety, and if you are real smart you will buy a beater bike to learn the limits on so you don't wreck your sweet street gal. The street should only be for display of skills, NOT for pushing your skill levels up, or out to the edge. Your life may hang in the balance, and almost always the beauty of your sweet street gal.
I’m sorry. But I like to go fast probably more than the next guy. But the street is not the place for that. There is never a situation where dragging knees on public roads is at all appropriate.
Obviously if you've overcooked it, you'll need to make adjustments mid corner. But generally for road riders you want to have your speed correct before you get into the corner, by looking as far ahead as the clear vision allows. If you can't see the whole corner go in a bit slower.
For sure. Setting an appropriate entrance speed is so important. But the problem with this advice is the whole “off the brakes before tip in” part. We slow until we’re happy with our speed. No matter where in the corner that is.
You have great presentation and video making skills, a vast career in the field, and despite all of that you manage to make simple concepts so hard to grasp!! It's frustrating, I feel stupid watching...
Pilot here - can confirm.
Setting aside the dynamic differences, the biggest difference in a practical sense is this: When you screw up your turn in an airplane, you *really* need to screw it up to get yourself into trouble (worst case, a spin), and even then you can recover it. You screw up on a bike, you're in a lowside, highside, run wide into traffic or off the road.
It's part of why I can go out and practice turns in my plane over and over and over and get better - there's very little consequence to getting it wrong (provided you're not close to the ground).
That being said, this channel is the closest thing I've found to a flight instructor, except for bikes. Maybe one day I can take Mr. CanyonChaser out to teach him some basic aerobatics :)
Yep, flown aircraft a few times, they play nice compared to motorbikes.
Way I describe it is planes are like cars, bikes are like helicopters
Yes, more stuff from Motorcycle Dynamics, please.
Right on!
@@CanyonChasers I am building a modest library from your channel and the greybeards (Kevin and Mark) of the CycleWorld podcast.
@@CanyonChasers I also love motorcycle dynamics. I am a new rider and it was something that I had never looked in to, and wow it's complex!
Yup old school technical manuals abridged for modern riders sounds like perfect content.
This just killed every useless debate in every thread. Thank you!
In my never ending pursuit of going faster safely, I have experienced advice from legitimate verified experts. Only to have 2 crashes in the same turn on the same track in the same conditions.
That tough me that even the best advice is well intended, but can have bad results. “It Depends “, is the only answer that is truly accurate. Thanks for another great video 👍
YES!! I don’t want to be overly critical but I was working with another coach. And the student came up and asked “what gear should I be in in x corner?”
The other coach just dived in. “You need to be in x gear and then brake to x marker and then punch a counter steer right when the bike lines up with the third post on the other side of the field…”
And I was like “whoah whoah whoah”. What bike? What speed? Spring or summer? Which tire? How many laps into the session?
I've learned a lot about riding from books, but only being able to relate by actually riding. None of it was by rote, what a good point. Your passion, competence, and communication skills continue to help and inform us all. Thanks!
Thank you, again. I just love this sport and unlike so many other things it seems like motorcycling gets better the more informed our community is.
Great episode. I've strained and had riding buddy friendships ended over this. There isn't a list that if you just do, you'll be Pecco. It is your choices in each moment that make you good and safe. Adaptable for the win.
Well said!
I *always* appreciate the WHY. I teach my kids the WHY behind something. It's almost as important [and sometimes more so] than the WHAT. Great info, thanks!
“If a man has a why, he can bear any how.” -Nietzsche
Exactly right!
Also, I find by understanding the WHY it helps me remember the HOW. By having a greater knowledge behind a subject helps me remember the basics or initial concept.
Building that critical thinking skill. Inviting natural organic thoughts.
@@deanmsimpson Heck yeah! Especially with motorcycling, it lets you make tweaks to your riding here and there to make the bike do the thing you want it to. You know why something on the bike reacts the way it does, so you can manipulate it better.
Thanks!
Wow. Thank you so much!!
Exactly! The only absolute in cycle riding is the unprepared/unskilled will suffer the results.
Thank you, this is one of my all time favorite, very comprehensive.
Glad you enjoyed it!
11 degrees of freedom going to be an awsemome video. Please do it for all of us!
I love this video! I want more content like this. Mastering riding is all about having a multitude of techniques that have been learned over time, then blending those tools together based on changing road conditions.
That's exactly right. The more we understand the bike the better equipped we are at solving the crazy problems we face on the street.
Great video, as always. Well written and produced. Thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it
thanks God for your existence. thank you for everything.
Wow. Thank you! 🙏
I tell beginners to spill or lose or reduce their speed before the curve/bend. That's 1000 times more important if you've NEVER taken that curve before, but even a familiar curve can have roadkill, sand, an opposite direction vehicle going wide, an accident, so get rid of that speed before the turn. Beginners tend to believe in their traction and lean right up until they are in the curve, where, as a beginner, it may be very difficult to get rid of the speed they no longer want, usually because they have now fixated on where they fear they will end up rather than on where they want to go, usually followed by a fist full of front brake.
Setting entrance speed is critical but I think we get it wrong with the whole “before the corner” bit.
We slow until we are happy. No matter where in the corner that is. Abruptly grabbing the brake mid corner is mostly caused when riders think they must be completely off the brakes before tip in.
Thanks!
Wow!! Thank you so much!!
Every ride is a new experience, which is one of the reasons we love to ride.
Yes. This is so true.
Wow. Good stuff. You described exactly how I've been riding since the early 80s. I've done it so long it's almost all muscle memory. This is the best articulation of how I ride and how I taught people to ride. I became an MSF instructor in 1984 at the age of 18. I think I am still the youngest MSF instructor ever. Anyway, terrific vid.
Not all instructors are created equal. Some, like you it sounds, are more equal than others.
There's 3 Golden Rules to riding the perfect corner.
Unfortunately, no-one knows what they are.
ROFL. I love it.
That's a well informed and highly functional approach to prioritising one's perceptions and focus. Thank you so much!
As a fiddle player (Irish Trad), I was once given similar advice re perception and focus: I was advised that in music there is only tone and rhythm (that's not the same as being in tune or in time). I was told that if my playing is going to pieces, just concentrate on one or the other (one cannot do both simultaneously) and the playing would sort itself out. I found this advice to work like magic. I may only be an amateur fiddler, but when I apply this practise to my playing I now easily slip into the 'present moment', the 'here and now', that wonderful intuitive, spiritual place. So now I'm wondering if there is tone and rhythm (or some other biking analog such as composure and rhythm) inherent in the job of identifying 'where one is' and 'where one wants to be'? Probably.
Oh man, thats fantastic. I have a video where I do some pretty music comparisons, ua-cam.com/video/-qj3hw-iZv4/v-deo.htmlsi=uy_-FX2qmkR4RVd9
I love this observation. I work 4-6 hours a day on a motorbike and my thinking is always where am I going next? What is my goal, what risks can I see and most importantly what risks can't I see. I'm normally working at 70%, being polite to traffic but sometimes I have to give it 100% just because it's so good to hit that groove😊
I learn my riding by riding. I follow the speed limits in general and cruise rather than having a speed mindset. I try different things each time I ride and focus on being in control and not coming into contact with any object. So far so good after 13 years of riding.
Have you done a video that really went into detail on Neutral/Maintenance throttle ? I don’t think so ? Would be a great topic - help with the over-slowing thing and hearing how to fit it in with trail braking etc would be fascinating ..
Great suggestion!
So true! A few months ago I crashed my bike when I was trying to follow to the best of my ability what I had been taught over the past two years. Now I readily accept my responsibility, but after the accident I thought along what you are saying. I had it drilled into my head that when cornering don’t look anywhere but where you want to go. It may have helped if someone had said “at the same time, don’t loose track of where you are and what is around you.” I was so focused on the left green turn light and the median at the end of the street I was turning onto. I lost track of the median that ran along side me and I crashed into it.
I'm sorry you crashed, but that is such a perfect example of all this stuff, right?!
I had been out Motocamping (so the bike was loaded up) and took a detour home knowing that a road could be quite fun on a bike, but had never tried it. That road is indeed much more fun on a bike than in a car!
However there was extra weight up high on the back, so dynamics were different to what I would normally be used to on that sort of road, and it meant I had to do things to make it feel right in the never-ending left right left right wide and smooth and grippy surface... It was more about weight distribution, changing the grip levels (that were out of whack because of the luggage) and this meant using the brake in ways and places I wouldn't normally do, and even using the brake and throttle at the same time to adjust the level of grip each end had (it only takes a very little amount of brake bring the centre of gravity forward, and keep it there, and it really depended on what was happening as to whether I used the front or rear brake, because they both do different things, sometimes It had to be the rear brake only, because using the front brake increases the sideways load, but can't bring the weight of the luggage pushing down on it when in a turn, but the rear can shift enough weight forward to have extra downward pressure on the front without increasing the grip requirement on the front tyre.
This is hard to explain... in the wet we know that if we hit the front too quickly it will lock up, and it needs to be more gradual to place more downward pressure before the tyre has more grip and can handle enough brake pressure to add even more weight and downward pressure... entering the corner wasn't much different, but it required more time and lean, maintaining grip was about using the tyre with the most grip to add some to the other!
each corner was different (yet everything flows nicely on that road) it's not just a slalom, there are rises and dips, multi apex corners and changing camber, but the visibility is good, there is plenty of room, plenty of grip, plenty of line choices... it's like some aliens picked up a high level racetrack and moved it into the mountains. it was the perfect road to discover what brake force could do for the balance of the bike right the way through the corner!
What a relief to hear/see "evidence based" applied science/physics to riding. I am so sick of stupid rules thrown around on UA-cam with some knowledge and no understanding. You're getting it right. Keep on riding.
Thank you. I feel exactly the same way. Pedantics or gatekeeping doesn’t help solve most problems.
Merci!
De rien!
As always, you make such a great educational video. Thanks
I appreciate it!
I use to fly a Cessna years ago and consider riding motorcycles the closest thing to flying. Motorcycles may have more angles but gaining and loosing altitude is a big deal.
Falling on a motorcycle hurts. Falling in an airplane hurts a lot worse!
Great advice, ride based on direction and ride based on your comfort level. Oh, and don't ride at your limit when you cannot see what is coming up. My plan is to be an old rider with 'nothing to prove.' Been there and done it.
Yes. Exactly. When I was first taught the whole “slow until your happy” thing it was a bit of a revelation.
sweet! at 9:30 is my favourite place to ride near where i live. always cool to see home on your channel :)
I truly appreciate the effort you put into education for the motorcycling community. One of the best channels in my humble opinion.
Thank you so much. That’s high praise!!
I totally agree with title. I am a pilot. I also agree with your overall message here, I've been thinking about this a lot, as I ride canyons around SoCal on my new CBR 600 RR as a newer rider. I find the UA-cam content problematic - like you said; "It depends"
Thanks for sharing! I love it. It really does depend. I’m not going to use a hammer for every problem. Use the right tool for the right task.
Listening with headphones. Nice touch at "IT DEPENDS" ... rumble
Dun-Dun!
I really enjoyed this video since Canyon Chasers is my favourite motorcycle technique channel and Bagnaia is my favourite MotoGP rider.
Great stuff Dave, as usual. Thanks!
Thanks again!
Love your videos and your tips keep em coming mate .watching these always gives me a reminder to assess my rides throughout the year even though ive been at it over ten years. Safe riding brother from the UK 🇬🇧 🇺🇲
Hello UK. The UK is one of our most favorite places in the world.
Absolutely THE best bike content on UA-cam. Cheers!
Wow, thanks!
I really like the approach "it depends" to most questions about how to do this and how to do that on a motorcycle... but as a newbie with only 6 months riding experience (i'm excluding the winter months from Nov til now), this past summer, i focused on the "how" rather than the "why" simply because i really wanted to know all the basics + control my bike fully before "moving on" to more complex things. Like trail braking... never got to try it yet as i never take corners faster than maybe 5-10 km/h above the posted speed limit, that way, i can fully control my lean angle.
Question for you Dave : typically, is there some sort of time frame before an average rider who just wants to ride for the freedom of it and not for the "thrill of speed" can move on from the "how" and to the "why" ? Or did i (maybe) miss-understand something here!? Thanks ✌😎🖖
The How works for the mechanical stuff. How to shift, how to rotate the throttle. You already know all the how's. But the sooner you move into riding the bike based on direction - not even trail braking as a concept, but making decisions and choices based on where the bike is pointed, and where you want it to be pointed the better off and the more your riding will start to improve.
As you correctly say, it's not about speed. But it is about precision. Putting the bike precisely where you want it.
@@CanyonChasers thank you Dave for having taken time to answer. It's appreciated. And thanks for the precision about the how's. I understand better. The 1st half of summer 2024 was definitely about the how's... learning to control my bike (like friction control and downshifting at the right times) but for the 2nd half, i can say that i was a lot more in control of the bike and not the other way around like in the beginning. And my riding did improve because i was indeed focused on precision (not speed) and intend on continuing to improve. And with tips + good advice from professional riders such as yourself, hard not to improve!! Keep up the good work 👍😎👍
Thanks Dave, I'm now going to become a Y and not a How. When you consider what you say it makes it make sense. As I've said before your videos make everyday a school day. Stay safe and warm. Take care and ride well, once it warms up. 🤔 🤓
Thank you so much. And yeah. As someone else commented . When you better understand the why it often answers the how. That’s great right?
Excellent video. I never learned much of anything by rote, probably why I struggled in school so much where that is so much the norm. I learned how to ride a motorcycle by myself, no schools in existence 60 years ago. It has surprised me that what you teach is much the same as I learned in the school of hard knocks. An example was in the early days guys would gasp when they heard I used the front brake in corners. Gasp! I an rooting for Jorge on his new ride.😊 I ride Moto Guzzis so a natural choice.
I love it. And I too am rooting for Jorge next year. I mean, I also have an aprilia, so a natural choice.
@CanyonChasers I don't have an Aprilia but two Moto Guzzis so I was kind of thrilled to see him going to Aprilia. It's going to rankle Ducati to see the No 1 plate riding around on an Aprilia. Hopefully Jorge can dial in his new bike.
@@karlbishop7481 what I'm hearing is really encouraging. BTW, are you listening to the Oxley-Bom podcast? You really should!
Rote doesn't leave a lot of wiggle for forward or out-of- the-box thinking.
I prefer the "Here is how to critically think, you figure it out. But, if you like, I can give examples from my limited experience."
My kid just rear-ended a car. He said that I "many times emphasized that, in your experience, where one is going is the most important, what's happening behind you is second, and what's happening to the left and right is third, and overhead is forth. At no point is your dash, phone, or a pretty girl on the sidewalk, important." And he further stated "I had to rear-end a car to admit you were right." And I said "If only you could have done that 'proving' with your own motorcycle, not mine."
Darn, but I'm really glad he's OK. I'm sometimes amazed we (most of us) lived through those early years. Even so I had to be reminded a couple years ago, checking the map to see how far to the campsite turnoff..I'm just glad the horse thar suddenly appeared in the road went one way and I went the other. No more phone fiddling for me, I'll pull over.
Such a great summary. We need to improvise all the time right.
I’m glad the kiddo is okay.
Absolutely explore more about the dynamics.
3:47 I totally disagree, with all respect. The conditions on a race are way more manageable and easier to understand than on the Road. Race tracks are just a few km long, with just meters on altitude and everyone ride it 100 of times over and over again (virtually and physically) before the race even started. The track is so compact that the micro-climate difference almost never radically differs from each other.
Meanwhile on the road we easy travel 50km. We climb up to 400mts of altitude, we never repeat a curve and the climate can change extremely. We should never take MotoGP as an example.
Another aspect to consider is, before the rider jumps on the bike, this MotoGP bike has been meticulously inspected by several people: engineers, mechanics, riders and bike experts. Meaning the bike is „every time“ in perfect conditions.
Let’s not mention that everyone riding near you knows how to ride.
Anyways, this was a great video and I’m a big fan. I truly think every rider should watch this channel 👍 keep rocking!
This might be the coolest motorcycle video I've seen.
Wow, thanks!
I really like what you just said thank you so much.
I shared your videos a bunch i teach some basic riding skills and a few advanced but I know riders how say I’ve been riding for 20 years and they only have 1 year of actually experience they’ve been repeating the same shit year after year. And they don’t practice the riding skills are perishable. If you don’t practice, you lose it
Everything you learn on the track except for speed comes out to the street. Nothing you know on the street goes to the track. I really love your videos You help me so much when I see like this I share them
Thank you so much
Wow. Yeah. Very well articulated. I completely agree!!
Thank you for another great video and the Celsius and metric units 😄
NGL, learning Celcius was the hardest for me. There's no easy, quick translation between F and C.
@@CanyonChasers Flipside of the coin here. I can (somewhat) work with inches, miles and pounds but still to this day, whenever I hear "it's like 70 degrees" I imagine spontaneous combustion 😁
Why should Americans be the ones doing all the conversions in videos? 😆
@@exothermal.sprocket Honestly, and this might just be my algorythm, but ALL I get is feet, Fahrenheit and ounces 😄But the real answer to your question is because America is the odd one out 😁And also because the imperial system is a mess because 1 kilometer is 1000 meters but 1 mile is 8 football fields, 38.72 yards, 2 cups, 4 ounces and 1/192983 of an inch (rough estimate)
@@genelgezer The real reason was the founding fathers wanted a clean break from the manipulation of the Crown over American goods and services.
65 years and an unknown (many , many) amount of miles on stuff with two wheels and a motor and I'm still learning ! Can't wait to hear what people that are both pilots and motorcyclists have to say about this...
Apparently the pilots agree.
Great advices!
Excellent video. Thank you for your efforts and advice.
Would you counter lean on really sharp & slow corner while riding through then hills ?
It depends. 🤣 but yeah. That’s a scenario where counter leaning is still very effective.
Really great presentation. This is all absolutely true.
Glad you liked it!
I would love for you to go more into the physics of motorcycles. I've tried reading Motorcycle Dynamics, and it was way above my head.
It’s hard for me too. I go really slow and talk to smarter people than me to make sure I got it right.
I’ve done a few that go deep. Like our countersteering video. Did you see that one?
@CanyonChasers yes I did and it was excellent as always. Your ability to present information in a clear and concise manner is a gift. Maybe one day I'll be able to attend one of your classes.
GREETINGS FROM THE PPRC GREAT VIDEO TODAY. YOU HAVE THE BEST VIDEOS GOING.🇺🇸🏍️
Hello PPRC. Thank you. That’s some mighty high praise and I do appreciate it.
Great video 🎉
This is excellent!
One of the reasons I ride is the fact that it is a dynamic skill to master. I know that I’ll never master it, and that’s why I like it. Most pilots ride bikes…
I completely agree. That has been a massive reason why it’s been so compelling.
thanks for doing this! Maybe now people will stop repeating TWOT mantra regarding “roll on though the corner”. I’m just a bit pissed that we, as community need so much effort to get away from bad habits and old beliefs to new ones. Just like even 2 years ago people were against trail braking, but now every youtuber is preaching that’s the best thing…
Oh man. Right. When I made my first trail braking video. Like in, 2017 or something. I literally got death threats.
nice info sir!❤ how about breakin' down the riding style of MM93? i'm just so curious also on his approaches to corners, his attacks and his lines..maybe you can do it for your riding students..thanks!❤❤❤
Ooh. That would be fun and super challenging. He has a very unique approach. And he’s still racing so information is limited.
But often we can get a lot of info from retired riders. I’ve been pulling a lot from Casey Stoner because he’s extremely good at articulating what he did.
For me too more stuff from Motorcycle Dynamics please
I’m glad I’m not the only nerd who loves this stuff.
Anything that takes motor-coordination, physical strength or skills require practice. Knowing how things work is just the first step to later be able to execute. It is like shooting hoops in basketball but much more complicated in motorcycling. And it is important to recognize that not everyone can do it, just like I'll never be a good basketball player. 😞
That's a great way to put it.
I was in air force in 2005. 5 pilots died on sport bikes within a 2 year period. The base Commander temporarily banned all pilots from riding a motorcycle.
Wow. Near the end of the last war more marines died in one year on motorcycles than in combat. Sobering right.
Exactly. 'Institute of advanced motoring': a collection of folk who really want to learn the rules and demand everyone follow them, rather than having to think. Military mindset is what you rely on when you can't think for yourself.
What are the 11 herbs & spices?!?!
@9:30 Pecco does not apply brakes slowly. When racing in top level, typical time between full/maximum throttle and maximum brake pressure is /should be somewhere around 0.1-0.2 seconds. It is very abrupt action compared to typical braking while street riding. That is maybe the biggest difference between street riding (street bike with stock suspension) and track riding (suspension built for track riding).
How he loads the brake - the first five percent is very different to how he builds pressure (and how quickly he builds pressure) once he has load. You can see it pretty clearly on that graph. It's amazing how talented these guys are. Stick around, this is going to be the topic of the next video (probably) :)
There is a Pramac racing video Pecco on the bike at Misano camera facing front tire. Look how he loads up front at the end of strait. Not abrupt at all very smooth same thing opening the throttle
As soon as a rider releases throttle, at least 50% of the weight/"load" is already on the front tyre. That is why you can use front brake very abruply.
That is why there is no need to do any kind of "first five percent".
That "first five percet" is just one of those old total bs legends, which is kept alive by people who want to believe in it. And when they believe in it, they want to see all kind of proof of it everywhere.
Just get actual brake pressure data from multiple fast race riders who are good on braking zone, and compare data to amateur/ novice racer data, and you will see the proof with you own eyes.
Or if that is not possible ask someone who is working with race rider data/ who has acces to race rider data.
We should know our limits, and the bike's limits. That's why everyone should practice in a controlled environment. Racers are within 99%-100%, as they have to be, sometimes push too far and can save, or not. On the road, we should maintain 50-70%, and leave the rest for overhead, for when (not if) a phone fixated truck driver leans into our lane, or there is an oil spill, grass, tumbleweed, fallen cargo in the middle of a corner. Good news, most of our limits is by far exceeded by the bike's. A good lesson, if you have a racer friend, even an amateur one, ask him to ride your bike a little bit to see how much potential is still there. Then, if you're all there, take some lessons. :D
OMG yes. Exactly. I love going fast. Probably more than the next guy. But time and place, right?
Soooooooo, it depends on the thing? I'm so confused 😅
It depends! 😉
Develop critical thinking skills, the "why" behind the "act, react".
@@CanyonChasers it's a shame the image doesn't show up here
I could watch someone start a bike once and know how to do, can’t say the same for a fighter. That’s without even taking off or fly one!
100%..right...its depend😂😂
This is the way!
Your point still stands, but an Aircraft has 8 points of freedom, 10 if you use a glider (you can elevator up and down on an air wave/thermal without pitch, not moving forwards or backwards, same at kiting). Everybody, seems to forget Side Slip. You can actually move the aircraft sideways, a skill good pilots develop (former Glider Pilot).
You do have more freedom or axis or movement in a bike, even though it's on a fixed plane (pun intended).
Though put a powered pilot, in a non-powered plane, and they really discover that extra sideways axis their not using!
Awesome. I love this perspective!
Isn't a side slip just combining a slight combo of roll and yaw?
Airplanes move about by essentially compressing or stretching gaseous molecules. They achieve thrust by compressing gasses backward and having a reactionary forward movement. If they side-slip, something has to cause a compression of gasses to the left to move right, or to the right to move left. Yet the plane cannot stay in the sky unless it's compressing gasses beneath it at a sufficient rate to balance against the acceleration of gravity.
@@CanyonChasers It all depends on how you model things. Form a structucal perspective, every non-rigid object has infinite degrees of freedom, but practically if you want to bend a ruler you will have an easier time doing it in one direction than the other two, so it makes sense to consider the easier to move mode as a degree of freedom (dof).
For mechanical systems we like to consider joints as places where the system can move, so we can split the motorcycle into 4 rigid bodies connected by joints that allow motion, thus having 3 degrees of freedom as at the beginning of the book, or we can dive deeper and end up with 11 dof, because we consider other non-rigid joints such as suspensions and tire deformation.
An airplane has 6 dof if you model it as a single rigid body. It can mode in 3 directions, and rotate around 3 axes. If you then start to consider that the control surfaces are better modeled as separate bodies since they can rotate independently, then you'll have 1 additional dof for each of them. If you then add things that flex such as wings (as we did for tires and suspensions), we get even higher. For fighter jets you can also have directional thrust, which gives 2 more dof.
@@AntonioPugliese88 What an excellent explanation. You summed up in a few paragraphs what I had to noodle for about an hour to understand. Awesome!
@@CanyonChasers If it is of any consolation I have been wrangling with this stuff for 18+ years. Keep on learning!
There is a difference between the skill of and the art of. Rote is skill, intentionally and thoughtfully going off script when applicable and beneficial is the art of. The art of starts to dissolve rote into nuance.
Yes! I love this!
🤠 Thanks
You betcha!
Your tutorial is excellent and so much appreciated in expanding one's skill set with common sense physics knowledge you explain in simple terms.
You explained well how varied riding techniques are allowable as dictated by speed, turn radius, road surface, weather, and the list is long.
The fundamental take away for me from your instructions was to always see your exit before increasing throttle and you're ready to lose lean angle.
Man. Your comment gave me goosebumps!! As a community and statistically, we energy far more corners than we exit.
Even if it was ugly, if we make it to the exit, it’s all good.
What’s the old pilots saying? Any landing you can walk away from is a good one. We can apply that to us. Yeah?
The brits don't say corners because it is not...... But what do I know......
Whats the saying; two countries separated by a common language?
What we do is more complex than flying a fighter plane? Well, I guess I have no reason to join, or feel bad about missing my opportunity to join, the Air Force.
Maybe it's just me projecting that I never made into the AF Academy. 😎
Don’t give someone a fish, teach them to fish
The more you practice, the luckier you get.
In the UK gravel doesn't count as a road defect.
Tinted visors and shades aren't always helpful.
Haha right. Isn’t that the truth.
So true
After decades of riding motorcycles with some racing involved I decided to get my pilots license. I figured that flying would be easy compared to riding. In retrospect I have to admit that I was wrong. This is not to take anything away from motorcycling. I owned an old tube and fabric piper so I can't comment on flying an F-16 but I suspect that the F-16 is another order of magnitude more difficult to fly. I'm curious why the author of that book says a MC has eleven degrees of freedom but I don't know that I want to go to the effort of buying and reading it just to find the answer. Maybe it's on the internet somewhere.
I made this short video for a Flying Magazine contest. ua-cam.com/video/x_8defY71iM/v-deo.html
It's pretty hard to parse. Some of it is online. www.researchgate.net/figure/Eleven-degrees-of-freedom-motorcycle-model_fig1_228363418
@@CanyonChasers thanks - I'll take a look at it.
Don't you know the real solution for being stuck in your riding career, is buying 1200 dollar upgrades? Trading for another bike? Adding horsepower? Building spec sheet Xcel files and comparing data?
I would also put motorcycles in this:
"Forget mysterious dark matter and the inexplicable accelerating expansion of the universe; the bicycle represents a far more embarrassing hole in the accomplishments of physics."
-Michael Brooks, quantum physicist
I agree. I use that exact quote in our video about countersteering!
@@CanyonChasers Nothing like using handlebars to force gyroscopic stability to yield to gravity and centrifugal acceleration. Hahaha
Thats funny i no driver's license no motorcycle schooling and still ride a motorcycle to work everyday. And you say its harder than flying a fighter jet ! 🙏🏾🤣 i have 1 1/2 half motorcycle driving experience.
Absolutely disagree with the premise. Racing technique is optimized to be fast and not to be safe. Racing riders crash A LOT. Street technique needs optimization to be safe, and that involves a whole set of different skills, often opposite to racing technique
It can get muddled. Race Craft vs precision high speed riding. We are looking at the precision stuff. Not the race craft stuff.
The bigger problem is the amount of imbeciles that want to learn performance riding on the street. Pushing the limit, or even to the edges of it, on the street almost always leads to disaster sooner or later. If they did this at a track, it would allow the skills to develop more safety, and if you are real smart you will buy a beater bike to learn the limits on so you don't wreck your sweet street gal. The street should only be for display of skills, NOT for pushing your skill levels up, or out to the edge. Your life may hang in the balance, and almost always the beauty of your sweet street gal.
I’m sorry. But I like to go fast probably more than the next guy. But the street is not the place for that. There is never a situation where dragging knees on public roads is at all appropriate.
Obviously if you've overcooked it, you'll need to make adjustments mid corner. But generally for road riders you want to have your speed correct before you get into the corner, by looking as far ahead as the clear vision allows. If you can't see the whole corner go in a bit slower.
For sure. Setting an appropriate entrance speed is so important. But the problem with this advice is the whole “off the brakes before tip in” part. We slow until we’re happy with our speed. No matter where in the corner that is.
Ph. Don’t pronounce Bagnaia like that!!!
I really flubbed it, didn’t it. It’s like trying to pronounce gnocchi.
You have great presentation and video making skills, a vast career in the field, and despite all of that you manage to make simple concepts so hard to grasp!! It's frustrating, I feel stupid watching...
Thanks!