How To Support Undermount Sinks
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- Опубліковано 20 кві 2017
- Some natural stone countertops require an independent support frame for undermount sinks. Anchors or epoxy are not viable. In this video I'll show my solution for a strong and adjustable support frame. The example is for a stainless steel sink under a soapstone countertop.
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Omg finally someone who actually supports the sink properly! Everyone else on youtube DIYing appears to be using only silicon regardless of countertop type, they are asking for trouble.
Imagine when they bath the baby in it 😅😅
This is a great idea and also a solution to a undermount sink that has failed due to poor adhesion. From one Craftsman to another. Thank you.
I have seen many videos on this subject and always felt a wood frame underneath the sink would be much more secure that clips held on with epoxy. Thank you for showing exactly how to do it. Like you said, it is an elegant solution. Thanks again.
I've used this method a few times now and it has worked well.
@@enduringcharm you could extend the frame support rails all the way to the bottom of the cabinet as full panel to carry an even heavier sink.
Well, the oak frame shown in the video would be able to support a pretty heavy load! If you feel the need for additional support I think it would be a matter of beefing up the wood frame and using more screws into the side of the cabinet. Extending the support frame to the bottom of the cabinet isn't the best idea because the bottom of the cabinet is really not designed to carry significant weight. Many are made of particle board and even those with plywood bottoms have no support underneath. There would be flex in the bottom, which would translate to movement of the sink. The sides of the cabinet are designed to carry loads and the vertical position of the sides means that there is no flex in the assembly--the load is carried directly to the floor. So if you are concerned, you could build a support frame similar to the one in the video and use wider and/or thicker pieces of wood to carry more weight. Then you could use more screws into the side of the cabinet or perhaps the rear as well. I mean, a single steel screw into the side of a board can handle quite a bit of weight before it shears. Even a big ceramic farm sink maxes out at a couple hundred pounds. That's less than the shear point of a single screw in plywood. So, I would think more about beefing up the frame to prevent flex and getting good anchor points in to the sides of the cabinet. You could even switch to a steel support frame if you know a welder/fabricator.
I installed an undermount for the 1st time on mdf countertops. I wasn't confident the clips would hold so I framed it under with 2x4s. It worked well, but this is so clean
This is exactly what I was looking for. We're doing a DIY concrete countertop and plan on an undermount sink
Thank you for a great solution! I've been looking for a good solution for quite some time. My search is over! Much appreciated.
This is Fantastic solutions for supporting an Undermount sink. Job well done 👍
Thanks for the tip! I've only installed sinks under granite and quartz but never know when I'll run into soap stone or other material that might not hold so well, and I'll be glad I watched this.
Yeah, some stone counters can hold anchors, although I've started using some variation of this method on most kitchen countertops. I don't want to trust the countertop installers to do the right thing, so I'd rather just make the extra effort and be sure. Same goes for the dishwasher. If it needs top anchors (most are through the sides now) I'll go ahead and put in a bracket before the countertop guys arrive so I know it will be done well.
Nicely done shims to tighten it up once installed.
this is the best way to install an undermount sinks for any countertop material, strong and remove-able incase something fails in the future. great job! I did something similar, but saw your video later, I would have done it like you did, a moveable frame.
Thank you so much for making this video!
This is a great idea. You can also get some steel metal brackets and screw them into the side of the cabinets pushing it up to the bottom of the sink. Sink is secure.
This is what i need for my kitchen!! Thanks i spent manny hours on youtube looking for a solution. I am desining my kitchen and i was worried about the skin support. Grat Job. Greetings from Mexico!!!
That's great, I'm glad it helped. Good luck on your kitchen!
Thank you for this idea. You saved me a lot of headache 👍💯
Perfect. This is exactly what I will do even though my countertop can support the weight of the sink.
VERY NICE!! I love your craftsmanship! I built an undermount frame for my farmhouse apron-front sink using ripped-down 2x4 boards - which supports just the side flanges on the sink - being an apron front. I had to "thin" the 2x4 boards because of the tight fit between the sink and base cabinet walls. I ran four corner "vertical leg supports" to the bottom of the cabinet, then screwed/glued them to the inside cabinet walls. It's rock solid and VERY sturdy - not going anywhere!
I wish I had seen your video before now! Granite countertop install is tomorrow - I have NO MOVEMENT in my sink - YIKES! I hope the granite company's measurements were accurate! I installed the sink EXACTLY as they requested.
You're probably fine. Most countertop vendors are pretty good about accuracy. I left some movement just as a precaution.
Clean work! 👌🏼
The best I've seen sooooo far, good on you...
Good idea sir because it really support the sink and very clean.. Thank you for sharing this video.. Keep safe and God bless you.
All I can say is 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼! Perfection! Perfect video!
Thank you!
Very smart, very smart!
Thank you!
I like your style sir.
Very nice, love it!
Great idea . Thank you so much
Perfect. Thanks for sharing.
You do nice work John. I just wish you were in my area. I would hire you. :)
This will do. Thank you for posting.
awesome method.
awesome design ! ... awesome video ! ... thanks so much for sharing, im going to install my under mount sink exactly like you did
thanks you
cheers
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent diy
I'm using your idea. Thanks!
I think this is an elegant solution
I like your idea, looks to be nice and strong. However I feel you may have failed to account for the amount of deconstruction needed just to replace the sink in the future if it happens to get damaged. This design I do agree with you is elegant. It may be even better if you had the plywood longer so you can remove the sink from under the countertop. Just in case you are not following me…. When sink and countertop is installed, how are you going to remove the sink if you can’t reach the screws In the plywood supports mounted to the side of the cabinet? The sides of the sink will be in the way. I think everything you did was great, just need to make the side supports longer and drop your screw position to be reachable so you have the ability to drop the sink from under the cabinet and pull it out thru the cabinet face.
Respectfully, Don
This concern is understandable, but not borne out in practice. The reality is that undermount sinks are very rarely replaced anyway. Even the old surface mount sinks posed issues when replacing, because finding a sink which exactly matched the previous size could be an issue. In this case the side supports I made can be easily removed, either by using a right angle drill or by simply cutting the screws with a reciprocating saw or multitool. But, that's not the real problem. To remove an undermount sink you will also need to remove the entire drain assembly, possibly including the stub from the wall. The supply pipes could also be in the way, depending if they come out from the wall or the floor. You may need to cut or desolder the valves. Now you've dropped the sink to the bottom of the cabinet, but you may not be able to get it out! If the base cabinet is a double door there's a good chance you'll need to cut the center divider out of the way or the sink can't come out. Now you can try to find a new sink to match the old size and shape.
So, my point is that stainless steel sinks tend to last the life of the countertops or the kitchen. Porcelain undermount sinks are not very common, and solid-surface undermount sinks are typically glued to the counter and can't be removed anyway. In the 17 years I've been doing this professionally I have never come across a situation where an undermount sink was worth replacing prior to the rest of the countertops or the whole kitchen. The cost of the work outweighs the worth. I have come across undermount sinks that were coming loose because of poor original installations, though. Just a few weeks ago a client had that problem, and I built a frame in place to push the sink back in place and hold it there.
I agree with you on several points of our conversation. My eloquent response to your video is based more off of repairs I have had to make from substandard workmanship and failures from original installs. Again I agree with you and am fond of your sink cradle fabrication.. Thank you for sharing your great ideas with all of us..
Thanks for sharing. Doing the same thing now with my SS sink, ikea cabinet and quartz countertop. There are is no room for epoxy and clips.
GENIUS!👍
nicely done.
Thank You john
Simple,but brilliant Thanks. A sink of water is heavy,it needs support
Great idea
saved for my future reno
I like it and it speeds up the process with waiting for epoxies to dry.
Really? You are a master indeed
I liked that. I saved the video so I can reference it. I think that's probably what I'll do when I replace my sink and counter shortly. I guess I can go ahead and have that all finished when the guys come out to install the countertops. I just won't secure it until they come. It's just some silicone caulk so no big deal. Nice job though.
Typically the countertop people will come once to measure and a second time to install. Most countertop vendors now use laser measurement systems which gather highly accurate measurements directly into a laptop. When they arrive for their first visit they want all the cabinets and appliances installed. You can build your sink support and have your sink in place too. Use a four foot level as a straight edge and install the support so the sink edge is at cabinet level or a sixteenth below. Then the countertop people will know exactly where to put the sink hole. Leave room in the back for the faucet and leave room in the front so that the countertop doesn't get too narrow.
@@enduringcharm Thanks for the info. I'll do it that way.
I think this is an excellent solution. I can understand why you want to silicon the under sink to the counter top, but I wouldn’t want to silicon the wooden frame to the under sink. The reason is if I need to remove the counter top, it will easily come away with the under sink attached. But if the frame is attached then it will be a lot more difficult to remove and re-install the counter top, because of the tight fit. 👍
Right--there is no need to apply silicone to the frame. The sink must be sealed to the countertop, though.
I never really liked that screw and clip method. It just wont hold that much and you always have to worry about the weight. I'm glad to see someone do something the same thought of supporting it properly.
One of the guys from work had his undercounter sink separate. They had used glue and screws. They held great for about 5 years. They had a party, and afterwards too many dishes and water in both sinks and it finally separated. Your engineering supports is very well done! Thanks for sharing this plan!
Brilliant
Are you going to shim or otherwise lock down the frame when you have the final position of the sink? Is the movement going to cause an issue or will the weight of the countertop and silicone hold it in place?
Good question--I should have mentioned this in the video. You set the height of the frame and rails so that the top of the sink is just below the bottom of the countertop when it is installed. In this case I left a light sixteenth of an inch, although your countertop installer may have a different preference. The weight of the countertop and the silicone then hold the sink in place. The installer may apply silicone between the sink and counter and he will certainly apply it around the edge inside the sink, which is required by code. So, the frame sets the position of the sink and holds the weight. The silicone and weight of the counter are more than enough to keep everything in place.
Thanks. Neat
Nice work. Simple solution to support the sink all around it’s lip with sturdy wood. Will be just putting a full layer of 3/4 inch plywood under my full countertop with a proper size cutout for the sink. The sink will then be supported on all sides with the plywood instead of just a few clips. Was not looking forward working from below with clips and drilling into a solid countertop, then hoping the clips hold the weight when full of water. These huge sinks get pretty heavy when filled with gallons of water? It is more than a little cramped installing the faucet from below….have to plan for that, also.
If you are thinking about just a piece of 3/4 plywood then you won't really have much support. The plywood will be able to flex after you make the cutout. And, it will be difficult to ever replace the sink. That's why I chose to orient the wood strips upright in the video, that's the strongest orientation and will not flex to any meaningful degree.
Hello, I would like to know if the frame you built is it’s flush with cabinet frame edge or is a lowered by 1/8 of an inch
This is one of those "it depends" questions. You really have to examine the sink you are using and see how the edge of it is shaped. And, you need to determine how the sink will be caulked--will a bead be applied prior to the countertop being dropped onto the sink or after the counter is in place? As a general rule I would keep the top of the sink flange slightly under the top cabinet edges--perhaps a 1/32 or 1/16 inch. This allows some adjustment after the counter is in place. If you will be caulking in advance of dropping the countertop you may want to increase that gap by another 1/16. If you will be caulking after the counter is placed, you could put the top of the sink flange exactly level with the top cabinet edges.
Thanks for the video. I'm going to be fixing a customers sink that was attached with silicone and strapped with all-round. They bathed their kids in the sink, and the water and children caused it to collapse into the cabinet. I would have used epoxy clips but the cabinet is so tight there isn't much room to attach now that the counter is installed.
I'm going to copy your design, except I'm going to make the side support boards screwed to the cabinet long enough that screws can be installed below the sink. Also, the wood gusset don't really serve a purpose in your design as all the force is vertical, and even plywood would go out of square.
Yikes, nothing like losing a kid into the cabinet! The wood gussets on my design are there to allow some movement during a countertop installation for alignment purposes.
@@enduringcharm Wow! Kid in a Kabinet!!!
John, I've been looking at a lot of options for mounting my 60\40 undermount stainless to granite. I really like your method. Definitely don't want to use the glue and screw clip method, and some of the metal frame kits aren't stainless steel. If I were to build a frame system like this, would you advise covering the top of the frame with plastic or maybe something like tar paper to keep water off of the wood? Thanks
You really shouldn't be getting water under there anyway if the sink and countertop are sealed. Sometimes the inside of cabinets have a higher moisture content, but as long as you are using solid wood it should be fine. Using oak or 3/4 plywood strips is a little more dimensionally stable than a softwood like pine, though.
@@enduringcharm Understood. But I just realized the sink isn't rectangular anyway so The frame method would be tough. The wife picked a 60/40 with one side offset. Back to the drawing board. Thanks John...appreciate the videos.
Well, depending on the particular sink, you may be able to put a 1x support through the center. So you'd construct a rectangle, put a center divider in for the middle of the sink, and perhaps one more support for the rear edge of the smaller sink.
@@enduringcharm Thanks... Hopefully that's an option.
you can spray killz on the frame for a layer of moisture barrier
Damn Good 👍
We moved into a home that has a similar frame and undermount sink configuration. We were thinking of replacing the sink in the future, and based on this video it looks like we would have to get someone to remove the countertop to replace the sink, is that right? Is there any other way to change out the sink when you use this type of install?
Well, this frame in the video is a custom design, and it's possible that your situation is the same. My design does allow replacement from below by removing the screws into the side of the cabinet and dropping the frame down. You'd have to remove the plumbing anyway. It's possible the frame under your sink was made the same way. If not, it can almost certainly be cut away and removed in pieces. The bigger question is whether or not a new sink will fit into your cabinet from below. Depending on the cabinet design and size of the sink it could be a problem to get a new sink in there from below. If you can make it fit that way, it's easy enough to build a new support frame from below.
I do the same but a bit different cause i use plywood as the base and cut a hold then put the sink in. All around the plywood now is a frame that holds all the weigh of the sink. No need those under-mount clip etcc. If those get rusted bam every thing fall down.
That's also a good approach. For larger sinks the plywood may get too narrow around the edges, I suppose, but for smaller sinks it should work fine.
Great video. Have question though. My contractor took out kitchen sink, cabinet, disposal, and disconnected dishwasher. He brought in an old laundry sink and attached cold water pipe to it. He said that new cabinet and under mount sink, dishwasher, and disposal can’t be installed until new quartz countertop arrives. That’s at least a month away! Can everything be installed prior using your frame? Would something else need to be put on top temporarily to be able to use all aforementioned appliances.? Thank you
Your contractor probably intends to have the sink mounted to the quartz countertop with mechanical clips and adhesive. Some materials like quartz can be drilled directly, unlike the soapstone counter mentioned in the video. So, he'll need the countertop there and installed in order to mount the sink. Having said that, with a disposal unit hanging off the sink too, I personally would prefer to have a frame installed under the sink for support. And, you can't install a working sink and disposal unit without the counter top in place anyway. The dishwasher might be functional except for the drain, which typically is attached to the sink drain. That doesn't exist yet. Your contractor is not out of line at all, and he must have installed the laundry sink for you so you had something in the meantime.
My kitchen sink is under mount using clips or brackets, whatever they call it. The countertop is granite. It is a double basin sink. I plan to replace it with a single large basin sink early next year. I can still use clips to attach the new sink to the counterop, right? I just need to make sure the screws don’t reuse existing hole?
Or would it be easier if I replace it with top mount sink so it is well supported?
Presumably you intend to leave the countertop where it is? One issue to examine is if you can physically get the old sink out and the new sink in. Depending on the layout of the plumbing and the size of the cabinet, you may have a problem. That aside, you can likely still use clips and silicone to hold the sink in place, but you'll have to examine the old bolt holes. They may be studs epoxied in place, they may be anchors wedged or epoxied in place, or they may be another method. Whether you can resuse them for the replacement sink depends on the details. You may want to consider a commercial or site-made support as well.
is the top of the stainless steel sink flush with the top of the cabinet or just below to allow for the two layers of of silicon? or does it not really matter ?
other than that really straight forward, thanks
You'll want to discuss this with your countertop installer. My preference is to leave a very slight gap for silicone--maybe a 32nd or 64th of an inch.
This is the way.
Would like to know if you supported the soapstone with a 3/4 inch piece of plywood, and then had to make an adjustment to the level of the two rail supports to accommodate the plywood. You mentioned that soapstone is not that strong, so I imagine that you would have added the plywood to aid it's support.
No, the soapstone counter is installed directly on top of the cabinets. The widest span for kitchen cabinets is probably 36 inches, and that's no problem for the soapstone. When I was talking about the soapstone strength I was referring to the installation of anchors into the stone to hold the sink. Unlike some other forms of natural stone, anchors will not hold or secure well in the soapstone, which is why I built this support instead.
I was going to make my undermount like a farm sink would mount, with a couple bottom braces under the sink then still use clips to suction silicone to countertop
Do you see any problems with what im thinking
As long as you have a solid mechanical connection to hold the weight you should be okay. There's more than one way to skin a cat, so the support doesn't need to be exactly as I've shown here. Just don't rely on the silicone to hold the weight, that's all.
I like this solution better than clips. The only concern is that the thickness of the overhang will raise the countertop and there's no guarantee that the backside won't have a gap. Perhaps another solution is to have the same bracket but have a way to raise and then screw it in. maybe a few slotted holes allow vertical movement then compressed after the countertop and screw it in from the outside?
I think you missed part of the video discussion. The cleats determine the height of the support frame, and the cleats can be moved up or down. So you can make adjustments as needed to get the top of the sink flange either dead level with the cabinet or slightly below if you want to leave room for silicone caulk. This can be done with a straight-edge prior to the countertop install or adjusted after, if you wish, from underneath.
@@enduringcharm Now I will have to rewatch this and find the details! Thanks!
Now what happens if you want to replace the undermount sink with a newer undermount sink, how would you go about removing the sink without ripping off your granite counter top? ty
The wood carriage is removable from below by pulling the screws--I purposely placed and angled the screws to allow for that. However, in my experience it's pretty rare that a sink gets replaced before a countertop, especially a stainless steel sink which is unlikely to get damaged.
Is there any room for faucets?
Ha! Yes, there was plenty of room for a faucet and for a tile backsplash. If you skip to 7:56 in this video you can see for yourself:
ua-cam.com/video/2rON-NptBdE/v-deo.html
Any suggestions for once the countertop has been installed and the weight of the sink falls in due to being i mb stalled with a lack of support?
All you can do is take the sink out and build what should have been there from the start. You may need to disassemble part of the cabinet to do the work. There are some commercially available sink supports as well, and possibly one of those would work best for you. Much depends on your particular circumstances--the countertop type, the sink size, the cabinet construction, etc. You'll need somebody onsite to evaluate the details and come up with a solution.
@@enduringcharm thank you. I have soapstone. The guy just used a gorilla glue type silicone. I was hoping for more support than that. He charged $150 & I had already scraped off all the old silicone. He didn't know what I was talking about when I asked if he'd be using clips.
Good lord. That's awful. With soapstone you need to have some kind of support structure like shown in the video. You can't use clips drilled into the stone as far as I know because the stone is too soft and the bolts will pull out. Hopefully you can find a local carpenter to build a support in place, although now it will be a royal pain because he'll have to work inside the cabinet from below.
What about making the frame out of 3/4 baltic birch ply?
You could use plywood if you wish. You might seal the edges in case water ever gets there in the future.
I have the frame but the sink is not leveled, it moves to one side, it doesn't just stay still, seems like I have to put something under it form the opposite side to level it. Any help?
Well, you can adjust the frame by unscrewing and rescrewing it in place. As for side to side movement, the undermount sink will be siliconed in place, so it will stay put once the caulk dries.
thank you very much for replying!
How do you take the sink out when you need access to change your faucet ?
For the frame I built, you just remove the screws through the side, and everything drops down. However, all undermount sinks, no matter the mounting method, can be difficult to remove. That's because once the countertop is in place, the plumbing underneath will need to be moved or removed in order to drop the sink. For replacing a faucet it isn't necessary to remove the sink, unless you have something unusual. Access to the faucet mounting nuts is from below, and newer faucets have become much easier to replace than in the old days. Faucets generally are mounted in the countertop itself when there is an undermount sink.
how would you change the sink in the future
That's the beauty of this arrangement--unscrew the side cleats and the whole thing drops down. It is unlikely that a new sink will be needed since the stainless metal sinks do last, but the possibility is there if needed.
I want to do this with large format tile counters but hard to find videos on that
Well, the undermount sink for a tiled counter would be similar, the bigger problem would be sourcing tile for the sink edge and other details. I'll be honest with you, I have never met a homeowner who already has a tiled counter who is happy with it. Never. The tiles come loose or chip with pots and pans, the grout gets stained and cracked, water gets to the underlayment, and the look appears dated in short order. I would encourage you to look around for a solid countertop, whatever the material, and find something you like. There are a crazy number of options now.
@@enduringcharm 24x24" tile hardly has any grout and it's $500 vs $3000+
Yes, a tiled counter can be done more cheaply if you do it yourself. Still, you'll need to figure out the edge treatment and it will not be as durable as a solid counter. If you are not experienced in tile setting and you are doing this yourself then you should expect a learning curve and mistakes. I'm rooting for you, but I would still advise you to investigate a solid counter. If you are not too picky about color you can often get deals on composites or natural stone by visiting a wholesaler or installer. It might be as little as $40 a square foot, versus the $80-200 which is more typical.
Nice solution, but how is the plumber going to install and connect the water supply and valves?
In this case it was a single handle faucet being installed, and those come with the braided lines already connected. You just drop those through the single hole in the countertop, tighten up the provided nut for the faucet underneath, and attached the hot and cold. These are among the simplest to connect, actually. You can see in the video there is a notch cut out in the back of the cabinet to allow maximum room for the faucet nut. If you have different styles of faucet the same sink support can be used, but you may need to use a smaller sink to allow more room for the faucet.
thanks, or maybe a deeper, nonstandard, cabinet@@enduringcharm
What if u want to change your sink eventually. How would u remove the old sink??!!
As I explained at 3:18, the frame sits on rails or cleats attached to the side of the cabinet. Unscrew those cleats from below and the whole frame and sink would drop down. However, no matter how you attach an undermount sink to a countertop, getting it out later is not easy due to the plumbing supply and drain in the way, and sometimes the way the cabinet face frame is constructed. If the face frame has a stile in the middle, for example, the old sink may be too big to remove and the new sink to big to insert. Fortunately, it's pretty rare to have to replace a sink. Typically by the time a sink gets in bad shape, the rest of the kitchen is also in bad shape and a remodel is in order.
What is the size of the frame please ?
The frame is sized to support the edge of the sink, so it will be different depending on your particular sink.
Isn’t the back of that frame going to be in the way of the tap?
If you look at 1:22 you'll see there is a small notch cut into the back of the cabinet itself. The faucet was centered in that notch. remember, the faucet needs to be mounted outside of the sink lip anyway and my frame goes under the sink lip.
Is this strong enough to hold a stone composite sink?
Probably, but like anything else--the devil is in the details. Depending on circumstances I might choose to use a thicker wood for the frame, or I might add additional framing, or I might be careful about choosing a stronger hardwood wood like oak over a softwood like pine.
@@enduringcharm do you think adding legs to rail will help? I'm going to put a pull out drawer because I have room with my plumbing I can easily do that and make the drawer smaller. It's a 33"x 22" stone composite double sink, I think it's around 50 to 40lbs. I'm going to have a sealed butcher block counter as well. But this method seemed most logical in my scenario.
No, legs aren't necessary. If you can get screws into the sides of the sink base cabinet that will be plenty strong. Just design the actual frame with the weight in mind and use enough screws into the cabinet sides. It probably won't look much different than in the video.
@@enduringcharm okay will do! Thank you for your response!
I’m confused. I thought undermount sinks (the lip) was sandwiched between the plywood and (granite/quartz) the stone countertop. Isn’t the soapstone going to sit over the lip of your under mount sink?
Not sure why the frame was necessary.
You are confused! So, the undermount sink does not sit on top of the cabinets, if that's what you assumed. The cabinet base will always be bigger than the sink lip. There are various methods for attaching undermount sinks. Some porcelain undermount sinks, for example, use a combination of adhesive between the top of the lip and the underside of the counter as well as mechanical clips drilled into the underside of the countertop. This is a common arrangement for bath vanities. Stainless steel or other metal sinks were often attached to the underside of wood or laminate countertops using a similar clip system. Mechanical clips can be used with some types of stone, but others, such as soapstone or marble, are too soft for the clips. That's why this frame is being built in this video, it provides the structural support without relying on clips. I actually use the system in other circumstances too, even when clips might be possible. It's just a stronger system and it doesn't take long to construct.
Thanks. I stand corrected. Your setup is clever.
The best solution to my problem
How would you remove the sink if there is damage to it?
The support can be removed from below. Take out the screws in the sides and drop it down. The plumbing would need to be removed anyway, and you'd need to have the clearance for the sink to be removed through the bottom or brought sideways through the countertop hole. Clearance issues with the cabinet or supply pipes can prevent removal of the sink with the counter in place anyway. The truth is, it's extremely rare to need to replace the sink. The only time I've come across it is when the sink wasn't installed well in the first place and actually fell off. In that case the rest of the kitchen was also done so poorly that the whole room was remodeled.
@@enduringcharm OK, that's what it looked like, but appreciate the answer! Was thinking of building one of your frames myself.
I think I'm going to put my frame about 1/16 low so that when I put the sink in, it's flush.
You can even put your sink in place, have a helper hold a straight edge over the cabinet edges, and push the sink/frame up to where it just kisses the straight edge. Then mark that position for your rails.
How about faucet space?
It is important to think about room for the faucet. I like to have the homeowner pick out the faucet well in advance and I have it on hand when the countertop is measured. I go over the hole placement with the fabricator. You also want to leave room for the hook-up and hoses underneath. Some faucets are easier than others to install as far as needed room. If you look at 2:16 in this video you'll notice a slight cutout in the rear countertop support, which was done to allow more installation room.
So you have to remove the counter top if you ever want to replace the sink??
With many support options that is the case, but with this design in the video you can remove the wood support from inside the cabinet. It wouldn't be fun, but you could do it. You just need to be aware as you put the support together to drive the screws in a direction that can be accessed from below. That said, in literally every kitchen remodel I've ever done the sink was original. By the time a sink wears out or looks bad, the rest of the kitchen does too.
Where did you get all this charm?
Ha! Just born this way, I guess!
If you did that for the counter guys I'm giving you a hand...ie
A Hercules Universal Sink Harness (Braxton Bragg) or a Sink Strap (Regent Stone Products) are a much better method for attaching sinks, because their constant pressure against the stone bottom turn the sink into a 10" deep steel truss. Cleats and frames cannot do this. Plus they leak as the wood shrinks.
Need to replace your sink? Good luck with that frame. With a strap, you undo one or two nuts and change 'er out in a hour.
Maybe you didn't watch the whole video. In this case the sink was stainless steel, not stone, and it doesn't require support anywhere but the rim. I also specifically designed the frame to be removable after the counters were installed in case the sink ever needed replacing. Unscrew the rails and the whole thing drops down. Seasonal expansion and contraction is not an issue, since the cabinets and frame are both made of the same material and therefore have the same expansion and contraction properties. The two cable products you mention are designed to be used after the countertops are in place, because they need the countertop itself as something to push against in order to be secure and positioned properly. For a new installation, as this was, the countertop installers want the sink to be in place and ready for attachment with silicone, or else they won't guarantee the sink installation. It's also a lot easier to position and install the sink from above than to work with a cable system underneath with the countertop already installed.
How to support an existing sink that is not properly supported
I have run across that problem a few times, including homeowners who didn't realize their sink was about to fall out! Typically I will solve that in a similar way, but support the sink from the bottom of the bowl. I'll cut horizontal supports to the basic shape of the bottom of the bowl and put one in front and behind the drain assembly. I'll use silicone to fill in any gaps. With those two supports temporarily propped up, I'll install cleats on either side of the cabinet to catch the ends of the two supports. Remove the temporary props and you are done.
You still have a weak area with the 2 pieces of 1x2 straps which you have attached to the left and right gables of the sink cabinet, those few wood screws have very little sheer value, a wider piece of 3/4"
7 ply birch plywood, through bolted with at least 5 stainless steel bolts on each piece,and glued to the gables with PL PREMIUM construction adhesive , at least then you have a chance
Also what about the poor Plumber who is going to install the Faucet etc.etc. not much room left behind that oak frame thats in his way now, lots of colorfull language when he see's the that ,
My plumber was telling me a couple of weeks agot that they are getting 2-3 calls a week to fix these droping sinks, problem is that the falling sinks are not the fault of the plumber it's the PAPER G. C. out there ,
Brian, you greatly overestimate the weight requirements of a sink! The cabinet screws I use to attach the short ledger boards are far more than needed. One manufacturer (www.pro-twist.com/folders/Data%20Sheets/031%20Cabinet%20Screws.pdf) suggests a shear strength of 1340 pounds for each screw. I used 4 screws per side, which equates to 5360 pounds per side. I think it's pretty unlikely anyone will be putting ten thousand pounds of weight in the sink, and both the sink and the cabinet would buckle before the screws snap.
As for the plumbing access, remember that the frame goes under the lip of the sink. That area is blocked for drilling anyway. The faucet manufacturers have made life easier now for installation and we all use the stainless flexible supply lines, which have an excellent track record. Typically a kitchen faucet is a one-hole design these days, and there is a nut tightened from below. Some manufacturers even give you a plastic tool to tighten that nut--I must have a dozen of them kicking around my trailer. It's a non-issue. The problem with sinks being poorly installed, though, I would put on the countertop vendors OR handyman types who have no expertise. When I do a kitchen or a bath, I have a discussion with the countertop guys to make certain we'll have no issues.
No way to move the sink vertically unless you use shims!
Apparently you didn't watch the whole video--at 3:19 I specifically describe how there is infinite adjustment in height using the rail positions. Of course, you would set the height before installing the countertops, which you can do with the sink in place for exact measurement.
Interesting concept. I wonder how much money was spent in oak for something that will NEVER be seen. 2x4s are the way to go…elegance be damned
Well, this is one way I can use up short scraps, actually. I have a whole section of my barn devoted to storage of excess materials. As a pro I couldn't possibly save everything but I try to save some. That aside, the problem with using 2x4 or 2x3 material for this type of frame is that the bulk can get in the way. There is limited room around the edges, depending on the size of the sink, and in the back you need access for the faucet and related plumbing. Oak is not required for a 1x frame, I just happened to have that available. Pine would work too, as long as you take care in the construction to avoid splits.
Mmmm, until you have to work on the faucets
The frame clears the faucets, otherwise you couldn't install them in the first place. Remember, the frame is under the sink edge. The faucets are always mounted beyond that edge, of course.
Funny how you have no idea how to install a sink on granite or quartz
What's amusing? I support an undermount sink this way regardless of stone type. It is superior to the method of installing anchors into the stone, which can come loose or crack the counter. On bath vanities I will use anchors and adhesive if the vanity manufacturer provides them, but bath vanities are not subject to the same weight and stresses found in a kitchen sink.
@@enduringcharm think you misunderstood what I was saying I love the way you do it and I think it is far superior to silicone or clips I was commenting on the way you said they use clips or silicone or something like that.when you know exactly how the do it.ill be using your method in 3 weeks my son is getting quartz installed.i too do not feel those clips and silicone do a good enough job.i will use silicone on sink with you bracing.
Oh, I see. And, yes, with quartz it would be good to use the cradle support rather than clips. Kitchen sinks can really take a beating with the weight of pots and pans, water, and people pushing down on the sink while scrubbing.
Very nice, the only issue is you are unable to tighten the sink to the countertop after the countertop is dropped down. Some other methods use brackets with screws which are adjusted to push it up tight. Probably not an issue if you get that wood bracket in just the right place height-wise. Could possibly end up with a bit thicker silicone Bond.
Actually, you can adjust this frame very easily if need be. Just unscrew the screws going into the sides of the cabinet, push the frame and the sink up until it hits the counter, and refasten. You just need to watch that you put the initial screws in where they won't interfere with the sink when removed. That said, it's very easy to set the sink height before the counters are delivered. Just put a straight edge across the top of the cabinet and push up the frame and and sink until it touches the straight edge or comes just below if you want to leave some room for caulk.