I only have a couple of hundred 50’s and 60’s mono records so didn’t want to spend a fortune on a dedicated setup so bought a second turntable a Rega P3 and added the AT610mono cartridge. This works great for me and I am sure it is real mono so don’t be put off by this video. A plus point is the interchangeable stylus.
@realworldaudio ....No worries Janos....I have been busy since this summer, my sister is now recovering from cancer so I had to be there for her for everything so I have missed many of your videos and I got to buy you a coffee ☕️ hope all is well Janos and cheers 🍻 👏
Hi Janos, thanks for clearing that up. AT does indeed have a sloppy description of their MONO3 cartridges. I would still be interested in the mono performance of a stereo cartridge with the coils in series. Not so good for mono albums but I still think the better solution to get (as well) the vertical modulation of a stereo album on a mono system.
It depends on the cartridge, whether the stereo channels in series will work better or a mono cartridge. If you get a much higher grade stereo cartridge, then placing the coils in series will give quite better results than a dedicated mono of a much lesser grade. (Provided the step-up and the phono can handle the very much altered gain / impedance of the two coils.) The increase in the signal level is balanced by the need for lower noise / noise floor and the mismatch between the two coils. When a cartrdige is of very high level, then these negatives are negligible, leaving you with the issue of gain and load - if your step up & phono has a lot of flexibility in this area, then it's a non-issue, otherwise a major roadblock.
So I can’t buy a Mono 3LP without buying a step up preamp as well? I spoke to AT tech support a while back and they said that I didn’t need a step up with the 3LP. Don’t want to spend a lot but want to be able to listen to my mono records with a true mono cart. Mono 3LP seemed like the best bet but if I have to buy a step up it seems like I might as well go for the 33.
The 3LP has 1.3mV output, which is a little lower than most MM cartridges which are 3-5mV, meaning that you will need to turn up the volume control more than usual. If you currently have an MM cartridge, and your volume control is not more than halfway/three quarters way, then the 3LP will work fine. If you are maxing out the volume control with a regular MM then the volume will not be enough for the 3LP.
Thanks for the response. Can I ask you one more question? I currently have an AT-VM95E stereo cartridge, which is easily upgradable to the ML (microline) or SH (Shibata) stylus. If I upgraded to one of those would it make it unnecessary to purchase a mono cart anyway, like you stated at the beginning of the video, or is that only the case with really high end, low output cartridges?
@@tmmyt2005 Hard to make that call... I suspect that a VM610 mono would only be marginally better than the upgraded VM95E, but the MONO3 will likely be noticeably better - it will be significantly quieter, record noise will drop a lot.
Thank you. I searched for information on the mono Rega RB78 cartridge. I want to use it for my 78 rpm records. I don’t understand why the Rega has two pins and the mono Ortofon 2M 78 cartridge has four pins. They’re both mono cartridges right?
What I'd really like to know is with what records do you really get the benefits of a mono cart. Original mono cuts up to the sixties, obviously yes. But current mono reissues? How are those cut? Is there a difference between a mono lathe and a stereo lathe cutting a mono signal? I play recent cheapo mono reissues (Wax Time, Jazz Wax, DOL etc.) with a mono cart (AT33 Mono 45th Anniversary) and they sound fine but I'm pretty sure they just carry a mono signal cut on stereo hardware. By the way, I thought the Anniversary designations on these carts referred to the company's birthday, not that particular product, but I may be wrong as AT was born in 1962.
Indeed, you are quite right... they were quite vague about that anniversary description. What a shame. I have not found anything on when they started the AT33MONO, but I suspect quite a while ago as the 33 series has been around forever. The differences between the lathes should not be significant regarding playability when the stereo lathe was set properly. The problem arises when the stereo lathe was not calibrated well, and the two channels cut with different signal strengths. In that case, the cut will be slanted, and the stylus will also ride up and down a bit, needing vertical compliance. Sadly this happens, and sometimes to an extreme manner. It can take only a few plays of a bad stereo lathe-cut mono record to mess up a mono cartridge with zero vertical compliance....
Is there any point in buying a strapped output mono cartridge when you can just use the mono switch in your preamp/receiver? If it’s just a stereo cartridge
Yes, then there's not much point, although the earlier the signal summation happens the better it is. Not much, just a tiny bit, and it comes down more to getting a summed mono cartridge that is higher quality than the stereo cart one has at the moment.
@@realworldaudio what do you make of this? I’ve was looking into the grado ME+ mono cart and the grado opus 3 (available in stereo and mono). I emailed their customer service. Based on their response it sounds like the opus 3 (and presumably the rest of their wood body line) comes in strapped stereo. This is their response: Hi David, We wire the vertical coil in series to achieve the mono signal FYI, there are actually two channel of mono in a ME+ and yes, it will track an older mono vertical signal
Hi Janos, this was a great experience and well done explained! Only two questions open: Can I use a 25um vintage Mono-Stylus on Modern-Mono-Pressings (e.g. Blue Note) and can I use a modern Mono-Cartridge with 17um on old OG-Monos? And, are there true MM-Mono-Cartridges on the market? I can not find one. Thanx and Cheers Stefan
What do you think of the ortofon 2m mono. I don’t have a step up phono preamp so stuck with MM. I use a McIntosh ma 5200 integrated amp. By the way, is there a good MC-compatible preamp that you’d recommend for $500 or less?
I would recommend Jim's Cornet at that price range - slightly over 500, but this is a phono stage that performs in the $3-5K range. (I have its 20yr old version, it used to be a DIY kit back then - I used to bring it over to friends, and it destroyed expensive phonos by a very wide berth... haha, fond memories). Jim also has an MC head amp for under $300 if you want to add it on to access the MC cartridges. (I think it's worth it - or maybe in the future, for now only the phono and a higher output cartridge.) www.haglabs.com/collections/phono-preamps Not sure if the link goes through, YT might block the post... anyway. The Ortofon mono is a strapped stereo cartridge, not true mono. The Audiotechnica MONO3/LP is a true mono for a very low price. It's a high output MC cartridge, might work without the MC head amp. (It has 1.3mV out vs the normal 4-5mV out for MM, and the 0.3mV typical for MC). So, if your Mc has loads of gain, then you will not need the head amp, just the Cornet. BTW the MONO3/LP is the higher output version of the MONO33, which is the "baby Lyra" - Lyra's cartridge designer commented on it as the only cartridge he would purchase if he had to get something that's not his creation. (He also said it sounds closest to the Lyra mono...) That's a very high praise. My buddy has the MONO3/LP, and he loves it. (And I have the MONO33, absolutely superb cartridge, but it needs MC step up).
Great video followup to your other mono cart videos..question: is it more important to find a step-up transformer to match with the CART, or the SUT to match the phono or is it a 3 way synergy - Cart, SUT and phono.. I ask because SUTs can cost considerably and experimenting can get pricey.
Yes, superb point. It's a 3 way match, and depending on the actual components & their combinations, some are more sensitive to matching than others... it all boils down to unique situations, in each system the emphasis to match will be on a different component. (When thinking of phono stage, the phono - preamp interface also changes how it reacts to the step-up...) My cartridge path was set by my SUT. I have a excellent SUT with a 1:25 fixed step-up ratio, and I'm using cartridges that work with that step up. So, 1:40 or 1:10 are off the list, but the 1:25 range includes a lot of superb cartridges at sane prices. (Roughly the 0.3-0.35mV LOMC output range.) We can go wider by getting a SUT that has several step-up options, but as more options are available, each are of lesser quality than a single dedicated step-up ratio. So instead of being able to do just fine on a multitude, I went for doing just one superbly.
@@realworldaudio thanks for the input about the single ratio SUT vs. ones with multiple taps.. that would definitely force one to pick the right mix of Stereo and Mono carts, assuming one wants to use one SUT for both.
@@HoomanR17 Multiple SUTs can be a tough call. I certainly cannot afford one more of my main SUT.... if I sell my car AND my truck, the proceedings from both would not cover the cost of a second one! :( Generally I am very budget-centric with my choices, but with the SUT I went total nuts... the dynamics that SUT gives to the system is incredible. I also have a pair of vintage Altec SUT that I will use for the fun mono-phono project, but that's like falling off a cliff compared to the main SUT;
@@realworldaudio Thanks Janos for sharing. I understand what you mean .. this hobby can get out of control if you don't have the budget or the stomach for how deep it will ask you to reach into your wallet, even within the realm of simplicity, simple components, etc.. when all we're ultimately talking about is two coils of wire :) I'm reminded of the Bespoke Audio Company Passive Preamplifier which can go up to $20K and funny enough look like they have an SUT on the inside (Not in my range any time soon, but would love to hear your thoughts one day about their topology )
I can't tell. I do not know the cartridge personally, and the Ortofon website tells conflicting information. For one, it says "true mono" but it immediately contradicts it by "strapped output". One thing is sure - it has dual mono output so it can be hooked up to a stereo system, but how this output is obtained we can't tell as the intel is conflicting on the matter.
@@realworldaudio Ortofon says: "as every Ortofon cartridge the 2M Mono has four coils. In stereo cartridges, the ones diagonal to one another pick up the same stereo channel much more symmetrical than it would be possible with only one coild per channel. At the mono cartridges as the 2M Mono the two outputs (from two coils each) are strapped together and therefore summed to mono inside the cartridge."
@@hannumonto209 That means it's not true mono. The stereo coils strapped and summed to mono.... Too bad that the Ortofon page falsely states "true mono", when it is not.
Hi. Thanks for your interesting points on these topics In one video you have mentioned mono cartridges from Lyra and said that they're the best. So, I have a question. What do you think about London Decca mono cartridge?
I have not heard them, but I highly suspect that they would be most likely the most optimal to listen to Decca and London records, but also most likely superb with other issues as well.
Over 3k views! So does the weight diff between a coil and magnet dictate the speed it can vibrate? Is there an ‘ultimate’ speed for this or is it just what’s physically possible? I mean is there research into other designs and materials besides to challenge what’s been proven already? I find cartridges/stylus a fascinating area of HiFi.👍
Probably no mass would be the ultimate.... lesser mass means that the stylus is more free to track quick changes. A heavier tracker has a momentum and it takes time to speed up, and once it gains momentum it needs more time and distance to loose it. It's so bad that with the basic MM cartridges the stylus is oscillating all the time, and reading very little actual information. A lot of what we hear is the stylus set in motion with the big signal, and then bouncing around, missing all the small signals. That's why we get so massively more detail level once we go lighter with the tracking assembly - and also why the noise floor and distortion dramatically drop. The big challenge is to use lighter and smaller materials, fewer and smaller coils - which makes it much harder to assemble. Even with big cartridge manufacturers, like Audio technica, there's a single person who builds their top of the line cartridges. - Because it requires such extraordinary skills, working with such tiny parts. There's not enough people who can do it... really rare in fact. Plus, when you have so few coild that you need a 1:50-1:100 step up transformer, then that transformer needs to be of exceptional build quality, taking the costs to outer space..
Wow Janos. This hobby sure is a rabbit hole. In no other pursuit could the maxim “That Way Madness Lies” be more apt! Thank you for the thoughtful reply.🌞 ps of course a.i. + robotics will resolve the technique you describe.
Just FYI, an interesting audiokarma thread on the AT33MONO (and AT3MONOs) : audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/at-33-mono-cartridge-holy.825022/
Excellent presentation. I ordered the ATMONO33 last night and looking forward to using it with mu SUT👍👍
I only have a couple of hundred 50’s and 60’s mono records so didn’t want to spend a fortune on a dedicated setup so bought a second turntable a Rega P3 and added the AT610mono cartridge. This works great for me and I am sure it is real mono so don’t be put off by this video. A plus point is the interchangeable stylus.
Great explanation of mono cartridges....thank you Janos 👌.....Ed in New York 😎☕️🎵🎶🎵
Cheers, Ed, I just saw your comment! : )
@realworldaudio ....No worries Janos....I have been busy since this summer, my sister is now recovering from cancer so I had to be there for her for everything so I have missed many of your videos and I got to buy you a coffee ☕️ hope all is well Janos and cheers 🍻 👏
@@heribertovalentin1563 Goodness, my best wishes for your sister! I went through a very challenging time, and all is well. Thank you Ed, cheers!!!
Excellent video - thank you!
👍
Hi Janos, thanks for clearing that up. AT does indeed have a sloppy description of their MONO3 cartridges. I would still be interested in the mono performance of a stereo cartridge with the coils in series. Not so good for mono albums but I still think the better solution to get (as well) the vertical modulation of a stereo album on a mono system.
It depends on the cartridge, whether the stereo channels in series will work better or a mono cartridge. If you get a much higher grade stereo cartridge, then placing the coils in series will give quite better results than a dedicated mono of a much lesser grade. (Provided the step-up and the phono can handle the very much altered gain / impedance of the two coils.) The increase in the signal level is balanced by the need for lower noise / noise floor and the mismatch between the two coils. When a cartrdige is of very high level, then these negatives are negligible, leaving you with the issue of gain and load - if your step up & phono has a lot of flexibility in this area, then it's a non-issue, otherwise a major roadblock.
So I can’t buy a Mono 3LP without buying a step up preamp as well? I spoke to AT tech support a while back and they said that I didn’t need a step up with the 3LP. Don’t want to spend a lot but want to be able to listen to my mono records with a true mono cart. Mono 3LP seemed like the best bet but if I have to buy a step up it seems like I might as well go for the 33.
The 3LP has 1.3mV output, which is a little lower than most MM cartridges which are 3-5mV, meaning that you will need to turn up the volume control more than usual. If you currently have an MM cartridge, and your volume control is not more than halfway/three quarters way, then the 3LP will work fine. If you are maxing out the volume control with a regular MM then the volume will not be enough for the 3LP.
Thanks for the response. Can I ask you one more question? I currently have an AT-VM95E stereo cartridge, which is easily upgradable to the ML (microline) or SH (Shibata) stylus. If I upgraded to one of those would it make it unnecessary to purchase a mono cart anyway, like you stated at the beginning of the video, or is that only the case with really high end, low output cartridges?
@@tmmyt2005 Hard to make that call... I suspect that a VM610 mono would only be marginally better than the upgraded VM95E, but the MONO3 will likely be noticeably better - it will be significantly quieter, record noise will drop a lot.
Thank you. I searched for information on the mono Rega RB78 cartridge. I want to use it for my 78 rpm records.
I don’t understand why the Rega has two pins and the mono Ortofon 2M 78 cartridge has four pins.
They’re both mono cartridges right?
What I'd really like to know is with what records do you really get the benefits of a mono cart. Original mono cuts up to the sixties, obviously yes. But current mono reissues? How are those cut? Is there a difference between a mono lathe and a stereo lathe cutting a mono signal? I play recent cheapo mono reissues (Wax Time, Jazz Wax, DOL etc.) with a mono cart (AT33 Mono 45th Anniversary) and they sound fine but I'm pretty sure they just carry a mono signal cut on stereo hardware. By the way, I thought the Anniversary designations on these carts referred to the company's birthday, not that particular product, but I may be wrong as AT was born in 1962.
Indeed, you are quite right... they were quite vague about that anniversary description. What a shame. I have not found anything on when they started the AT33MONO, but I suspect quite a while ago as the 33 series has been around forever.
The differences between the lathes should not be significant regarding playability when the stereo lathe was set properly. The problem arises when the stereo lathe was not calibrated well, and the two channels cut with different signal strengths. In that case, the cut will be slanted, and the stylus will also ride up and down a bit, needing vertical compliance. Sadly this happens, and sometimes to an extreme manner. It can take only a few plays of a bad stereo lathe-cut mono record to mess up a mono cartridge with zero vertical compliance....
@@realworldaudio That makes sense, a properly cut mono groove will only contain horizontal modulations, whatever it is cut with.
Is there any point in buying a strapped output mono cartridge when you can just use the mono switch in your preamp/receiver? If it’s just a stereo cartridge
Yes, then there's not much point, although the earlier the signal summation happens the better it is. Not much, just a tiny bit, and it comes down more to getting a summed mono cartridge that is higher quality than the stereo cart one has at the moment.
@@realworldaudio what do you make of this? I’ve was looking into the grado ME+ mono cart and the grado opus 3 (available in stereo and mono). I emailed their customer service. Based on their response it sounds like the opus 3 (and presumably the rest of their wood body line) comes in strapped stereo.
This is their response:
Hi David,
We wire the vertical coil in series to achieve the mono signal
FYI, there are actually two channel of mono in a ME+
and yes, it will track an older mono vertical signal
Hi Janos,
this was a great experience and well done explained! Only two questions open:
Can I use a 25um vintage Mono-Stylus on Modern-Mono-Pressings (e.g. Blue Note) and can I use a modern Mono-Cartridge with 17um on old OG-Monos?
And, are there true MM-Mono-Cartridges on the market? I can not find one.
Thanx and Cheers
Stefan
What do you think of the ortofon 2m mono. I don’t have a step up phono preamp so stuck with MM. I use a McIntosh ma 5200 integrated amp.
By the way, is there a good MC-compatible preamp that you’d recommend for $500 or less?
I would recommend Jim's Cornet at that price range - slightly over 500, but this is a phono stage that performs in the $3-5K range. (I have its 20yr old version, it used to be a DIY kit back then - I used to bring it over to friends, and it destroyed expensive phonos by a very wide berth... haha, fond memories). Jim also has an MC head amp for under $300 if you want to add it on to access the MC cartridges. (I think it's worth it - or maybe in the future, for now only the phono and a higher output cartridge.) www.haglabs.com/collections/phono-preamps Not sure if the link goes through, YT might block the post... anyway. The Ortofon mono is a strapped stereo cartridge, not true mono. The Audiotechnica MONO3/LP is a true mono for a very low price. It's a high output MC cartridge, might work without the MC head amp. (It has 1.3mV out vs the normal 4-5mV out for MM, and the 0.3mV typical for MC). So, if your Mc has loads of gain, then you will not need the head amp, just the Cornet. BTW the MONO3/LP is the higher output version of the MONO33, which is the "baby Lyra" - Lyra's cartridge designer commented on it as the only cartridge he would purchase if he had to get something that's not his creation. (He also said it sounds closest to the Lyra mono...) That's a very high praise. My buddy has the MONO3/LP, and he loves it. (And I have the MONO33, absolutely superb cartridge, but it needs MC step up).
Great video followup to your other mono cart videos..question: is it more important to find a step-up transformer to match with the CART, or the SUT to match the phono or is it a 3 way synergy - Cart, SUT and phono.. I ask because SUTs can cost considerably and experimenting can get pricey.
Yes, superb point. It's a 3 way match, and depending on the actual components & their combinations, some are more sensitive to matching than others... it all boils down to unique situations, in each system the emphasis to match will be on a different component. (When thinking of phono stage, the phono - preamp interface also changes how it reacts to the step-up...)
My cartridge path was set by my SUT. I have a excellent SUT with a 1:25 fixed step-up ratio, and I'm using cartridges that work with that step up. So, 1:40 or 1:10 are off the list, but the 1:25 range includes a lot of superb cartridges at sane prices. (Roughly the 0.3-0.35mV LOMC output range.)
We can go wider by getting a SUT that has several step-up options, but as more options are available, each are of lesser quality than a single dedicated step-up ratio. So instead of being able to do just fine on a multitude, I went for doing just one superbly.
@@realworldaudio thanks for the input about the single ratio SUT vs. ones with multiple taps.. that would definitely force one to pick the right mix of Stereo and Mono carts, assuming one wants to use one SUT for both.
@@HoomanR17 Multiple SUTs can be a tough call. I certainly cannot afford one more of my main SUT.... if I sell my car AND my truck, the proceedings from both would not cover the cost of a second one! :( Generally I am very budget-centric with my choices, but with the SUT I went total nuts... the dynamics that SUT gives to the system is incredible.
I also have a pair of vintage Altec SUT that I will use for the fun mono-phono project, but that's like falling off a cliff compared to the main SUT;
@@realworldaudio Thanks Janos for sharing. I understand what you mean .. this hobby can get out of control if you don't have the budget or the stomach for how deep it will ask you to reach into your wallet, even within the realm of simplicity, simple components, etc.. when all we're ultimately talking about is two coils of wire :) I'm reminded of the Bespoke Audio Company Passive Preamplifier which can go up to $20K and funny enough look like they have an SUT on the inside (Not in my range any time soon, but would love to hear your thoughts one day about their topology )
Is the Ortofon 2M mono "true" mono?
I can't tell. I do not know the cartridge personally, and the Ortofon website tells conflicting information. For one, it says "true mono" but it immediately contradicts it by "strapped output". One thing is sure - it has dual mono output so it can be hooked up to a stereo system, but how this output is obtained we can't tell as the intel is conflicting on the matter.
@@realworldaudio Thanks for the answer. I'll see what Ortofon support has to say about it.
@@realworldaudio Ortofon says: "as every Ortofon cartridge the 2M Mono has four coils. In stereo cartridges, the ones diagonal to one another pick up the same stereo channel much more symmetrical than it would be possible with only one coild per channel. At the mono cartridges as the 2M Mono the two outputs (from two coils each) are strapped together and therefore summed to mono inside the cartridge."
@@hannumonto209 That means it's not true mono. The stereo coils strapped and summed to mono.... Too bad that the Ortofon page falsely states "true mono", when it is not.
In my Mono3/LP, the L/R+ and L/R grounds are both connected, so this particular cartridge really doesn't offer alternative connection options.
Does anyone know it the Ortofon 2M Mono is a 'True' Mono car
tridge?
Hi. Thanks for your interesting points on these topics In one video you have mentioned mono cartridges from Lyra and said that they're the best. So, I have a question. What do you think about London Decca mono cartridge?
That's only vintage, correct?
@@hugobloemers4425 London Decca can make it for personal order (if seller can ask it for)
I have not heard them, but I highly suspect that they would be most likely the most optimal to listen to Decca and London records, but also most likely superb with other issues as well.
Over 3k views! So does the weight diff between a coil and magnet dictate the speed it can vibrate? Is there an ‘ultimate’ speed for this or is it just what’s physically possible? I mean is there research into other designs and materials besides to challenge what’s been proven already? I find cartridges/stylus a fascinating area of HiFi.👍
Probably no mass would be the ultimate.... lesser mass means that the stylus is more free to track quick changes. A heavier tracker has a momentum and it takes time to speed up, and once it gains momentum it needs more time and distance to loose it. It's so bad that with the basic MM cartridges the stylus is oscillating all the time, and reading very little actual information. A lot of what we hear is the stylus set in motion with the big signal, and then bouncing around, missing all the small signals. That's why we get so massively more detail level once we go lighter with the tracking assembly - and also why the noise floor and distortion dramatically drop.
The big challenge is to use lighter and smaller materials, fewer and smaller coils - which makes it much harder to assemble. Even with big cartridge manufacturers, like Audio technica, there's a single person who builds their top of the line cartridges. - Because it requires such extraordinary skills, working with such tiny parts. There's not enough people who can do it... really rare in fact. Plus, when you have so few coild that you need a 1:50-1:100 step up transformer, then that transformer needs to be of exceptional build quality, taking the costs to outer space..
Wow Janos. This hobby sure is a rabbit hole. In no other pursuit could the maxim “That Way Madness Lies” be more apt! Thank you for the thoughtful reply.🌞 ps of course a.i. + robotics will resolve the technique you describe.