How and When to Log Your Hunting Land | Dream Farm w/ Bill Winke
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- I took logs off a number of farms during the years when I was building my dream farm. That brings up a lot of questions about when to cut them (as soon as possible) and how to cut them. I am sure I will need to come back with at least one or two more episodes about logging your farm to really cover this subject well, but in this episode I get the conversation started.
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Would love a weekly show involving Bill talking about all his experiences in buying land and hunting the land! We need more than 8 episodes!
Landon, we are going to do that with the Dream Farm series. This was just a mini-series within that bigger theme. Thanks for the support and the comment. I appreciate it.
Landon check out his blog about the dream farm. I could read that thing weekly and pick up something new
These episodes are worth their weight in gold. I had to subscribe.
Thanks. Appreciate it. Have a great day.
Good topic Bill. I just completed logging my property. Put in many hours planning where the logging roads would be and landing areas that would be turned into food plots after the logging was complete. My Son and I spent a lot of time with the loggers we hired marking selected trees in areas we wanted to open up. The property was closed timber. Beautiful mature hardwoods but as you know that doesn't make the best for wildlife. So we decided to take out about 25-30 percent of the big timber and get some light in and improve the habitat. I made a deal with the loggers on the Black Walnut that I got 70 percent they got 30. On the other hardwoods it was 60/40. I had three different buyers lined up to get the best price possible. Loggers and buyers are fully responsible for getting logs to mill. Now that this is done, We have been walking the property trying to decide on whether we want to remove tops or just leave as structure and side cover. To be honest it really looks good in a way. This part will take time and planning. What are your thoughts on leaving tops for cover and structure?
Sounds like a very well developed and good plan. That is definitely the way to do it. I like to leave the tops for a number of reasons, one of which is to shelter regrowth from early browse pressure by the deer. The deer can get into the tops to feed on small trees, but they often don't and the trees get a jumpstart. Good job.
I can't wait to hear more about the 160 acre island! I used to hunt next to it when you had it. I didn't know it was you at the time. Just it was someone that videos their hunts. One evening on the south end of the island I watched a decent buck that looked to be shot or wounded cause it had a limp and wasn't moving to great for a bit walk back and forth and looked to be deciding if he wanted to cross the creek or I should say the cedar river cut through to the side I was on. After 30-45 minutes he finally bedded down and then it got dark so not sure what ever happened to him. I would love to see some hunting videos from the island to see if there any deer I recognize! Good luck on your new farm and I love watching your videos cause your like a normal everyday guy just like the rest of us and not all about the fancy tv look.
Matthew, I never actually hunted that. I bought it with the idea of keeping it for several years and even making a duck marsh in the middle, but a farm bordering my home place came up for sale and I couldn't afford to buy it without selling the island so I had to sell it. I think that was around 2007. The guys that bought it were filming their hunts. I think they filmed for the Drurys so maybe that is what you are thinking of. Have a great day.
I'd love a series on the logging stories. It wouldn't need to be educational, just sounds fascinating.
You start wading in water fraught with sharks. That is always fascinating. I will come back to this in the future. Have a great day.
Very helpful and interesting info as always. Thanks, and a good day to both of you.
Really enjoying this series! Thanks for sharing
Thanks for the support Stig. I appreciate it.
Love this series, learning so much, thanks for sharing 👍
Thanks for the comment and the support. Have a great day.
These episodes are so interesting. I'll never be able to do this, but very intriguing to hear the story
Maybe not right now, but someday. Never say never. You can start small and build up. It might take a while to get to 80 acres, for example, but if you are young enough, the sky is the limit.
What you said about if they are thinking about selling is 100% true. I wish I had realized this on a buddy of mines place that I should've bought. I could have made a pretty good chunk of money by flipping it after a year or so.
Yes, I learned that the hard way early in my journey. I was too slow to act on 900 acres that would have cash flowed (that's right it would have made its own payments). The ground was in Iowa, but the owners lived in Dallas. I called the family in Dallas and asked them if they would consider selling. The next morning I got a call from a local realtor asking if I wanted to buy it! I moved too slow and someone else bought it. What a huge mistake.
Hi Bill! Love the series!
You mentioned that you could go even more in-depth about logging your properties. I would be interested to know what strategies you used for determining where to log on specifically just your hunting properties, such as using selective vs clear cut, or perhaps using a combination of both, and any variables that factor into those decisions.
Thank you for all you do! Good luck, and stay safe!
Thanks Will. It is a massive topic. Like I said, it could easily be a three part series - maybe even more. I think I logged five or six properties in my journey, but I had a really good teacher that took the time to go through everything with me. In the end, the main things to look for are crystal clear transparency in every aspect of the sale and the need for competition in every aspect of the sale. Also, logs don't leave until the check clears unless you are selling to a very reputable mill - even then I would be careful. Good luck.
I purchased my land as it was being logged. Lots of people thought I was stupid. Now it's been 2 years, and the land does have a few water issues that I worked out, and I had work to do., but it is looking great now. Lots of regen and deer everywhere.
That is the upside to cutting timber - better low lying cover and browse. The downside is the lost value from the trees being gone and the lack of control over what gets cut and where the logging trails get made, etc. I would rather pay more for the land and cut it myself, if possible, than buy it after someone else cuts it and be stuck with their mistakes/decisions. But it sounds like that was not an option for you. Glad it worked out.
@@bill-winke you are right about the roads in the wrong place, but I think I got lucky on everything els.
I’ve never had my 80 acres logged off, mostly a mix of trees. Enjoying thi series.
Maybe ask a forester to take a quick look at it and tell you what you have. Would definitely be worth knowing that. Good luck.
Your definitely right on not trusting in that industry. It can be shady dealings. I had a couple bids this last time just to be certain. The first time I used a forester, which I would recommend. You pay 5% or so but they manage the bidding and the cut, and also carry the loggers liability when on the job.
The consulting forester is the best way for most people to do this, but even then they need a good one because the loggers still need to know that someone is going to be on-site and counting trees. Good luck.
@@bill-winke very true, they prepaid me for a certain amount of trees, they stump marked them too. I didn't go back thru and count, but based on volume it was similar and i felt comfortable with it. I'm having a cut this spring, another 700 trees, I have a cell cam on my property entry, and will be able to count loads at least. I cant count trees but trucks hold a certain volume so should be pretty easy to track that way. I didn't use a consulting forester this time around having been thru it, and I'm using the same Mill. Will pop in occasionally to check things.
Thank you! Educational and entertaining!
Thanks Luke. Much appreciated. Have a great day.
Bill, really enjoy these videos. Thanks for sharing the creative details on how you accomplished what we’d all love to do and have.
Property taxes vary by state, some much higher for non homesteaded properties than others (Michigan). Did the property taxes ever factor into your buying decisions and if so your thoughts on it?
In Iowa they have something called Forest Reserve that allows you to exempt property tax on timbered acres as long as you don't commercialize those acres through cattle grazing or pay hunting, etc. Other states may have something similar.
75/25 is a good split! I was 50/50 for some rough hilly ground.
Every market is a bit different, I am sure, but I think it also depends on what you are cutting and how good the timber value is. If high value (quality oak and walnut) you should expect a better split going your way. Good luck.
Another Great episode bill. It's almost impossible to do what you did in this time now with the main difference being the market is much more advanced as well as the buyers and sellers. But still can be done just really tough.
Yes, everything regarding recreational land has changed in the past 15 years. Something similar can still be done, but you have to look wider for good deals and it will take longer to get from zero to your dream farm. Or you have to stop at a smaller size.
as a landowner who has 235 acres in Illinois and have never timbered before, I would LOVE more detail
We will touch on this again. It is a very big subject. You can bite off as much control (time and risk) as you want. In the end, there are some things that are super important regardless of how you negotiate the sale. You need to know where the skeletons can be hidden this process - where the gray areas are - so you don't get ripped off. I think I know most of them. I will schedule a series on timber cutting in the future. Main thing for now, is importance of transparency in every aspect of the project and competition. A logger may promise you he is getting competitive bids within a grade and yield, for example, but he may be only selling to the mill that gives him kick-backs. I am not exaggerating. That stuff happens. I don't trust anyone, except maybe an independent forester that could handle the process fairly because he is getting a cut of the final number, but even then, some are definitely better (and more trustworthy) than others. We will come back to it. Good luck.
@@bill-winke thanks bill. It was awesome to hear your story. My wife, brother, and I have added 3 separate purchases from neighbors all to my mom and dads initial 40 acres of timber purchased in the mid 90s for pocket change in todays market. We were never comfortable with any purchase but found a way each and every time to make it work to build a legacy farm for our children. It would also be interesting to hear your thoughts on say how one would choose how much to harvest of a farm at a time. What I mean is, if you have a monoculture timber like we have, how would you go about doing cuts over years to create different age structures and habitats as well. Thanks for your time
I’ve really enjoyed this series. Just curious, during this time when you were acquiring these properties were you also leasing other ground to hunt? Would love to know your thoughts on leasing vs buying hunting ground.
One of my neighbors had 200 acres that bordered me and there was no fence between us. I leased that just to keep from having to fence it. Without the fence it was just a trespassing problem waiting to happen. In general, buying is way better than leasing, but as you are building up enough ground of your own, a small lease or two is probably OK, but just keep in mind that what you are paying for the lease cuts into the amount you can pay for land you own. In principle, I don't really like leasing that much. Whenever possible, I would always prefer to own even if it is less land. Good luck.
Thanks for the quick response. I’m 35 and have been leasing hunting land since I was 18. I would love to buy something small in the next 10 years to “get in the game”, but to accelerate that dream into a reality I would be wise to stop leasing and just save money. But that puts me hunting public land only for a while, which is a tough pill to swallow. 😂 Big moves require big sacrifices sometimes, so maybe that’s what it will take.
Unless you were born into a wealthy family you are going to sacrifice to reach those financial goals/dreams. Good luck.
Hey bill thanks again for all this information. I’ve been going through and cutting down ironwoods, elm, smaller basswood, boxelder, and a few hackberry and poppel. I have a lot of red oak and some white oak that are 16” to 24” and my woods are more open than I like for deer hunting. Having all these understory trees on the ground helps to thicken my woods up some. Is this ok to do now before I have some logging done? My end goal is to almost clear cut a couple of the ridges that are full of oak on the top only and I wanna get some new browse and hopefully oak regeneration. I also wanna add pockets of spruce into these clearings. Is this a good plan or not?
A couple things to note here. First, when you cut those smaller junk trees prior to logging just keep in mind that someone is going to have to come through there with a log skidder later to get those other trees. Skidders have tough tires, but if they are constantly driving over small trees cut at an angle, like spikes, they will eventually go flat. So cut those TSI trees off level and close to the ground. Second, I would never clear cut oaks. If you want consistent oak regeneration, you will need those parent trees to drop acorns. Every timber is different based on the distribution of species but I would still want plenty of oaks left in as many places as possible. You might just create openings the oaks by taking three or four trees in one area, leaving a couple and then taking two or three in the next area. I like that idea much better than clear cutting. Third, spruce is likely OK in areas where it is adapted. You will have to tube them so the deer don't eat them when they are just getting started. Otherwise, small (I emphasize small - a half dozen to ten trees max) pockets of cedars would also work. Good luck.
Ok thanks for the reply. I was told to get good oak regeneration small clear cuts are needed for the oaks to get full sun. I been wanting to plant cedars also but I have apple trees and I’m not sure if that’s a good idea with the cedar apple rust
Bill, another one to take notes on and supplements your dream farm blog well! I know cash is king, but was the logging you did on the home farm (I recall seeing pictures of the cutters) to gain income or to make it the thick habitat that sucked in so many deer? And is short term capital gains paid on logging if done within the first year?
Alex, it was a combination of the TSI we did before the logging and the logging itself that thickened it up. I do think that the TSI was much more aggressive and that probably had a greater effect than the logging which resulted in much less openings in the canopy. Logging doesn't create taxable income as long as your accountant positions that income against your basis. Make sure you discuss with your accountant. That means that taking the logs reduces the basis (the amount you have in the place) for tax purposes and is not treated as ordinary income. Then when you sell the property one day, the basis being lower would result in larger capital gains as a result and that is where those taxes would be paid. If you sell using a 1031 exchange you can further defer the time when you have to pay those taxes. Good luck.
@@bill-winke thank you for your time and detailed reply! Have a great week
I was into timber for a while and we use to cut 50 50 we cut skid and sold in the yard and you took half and we took half that's how it's mostly done here and there is alot of mills still working and some just deal logs alot of crooks in the industry I mean alot
Yes, my deal the only time I did grade and yield was 75 to me 25 to the middleman and his crew. I didn't like it because I got shafted on the walnut (I realized that later) and there was only one buyer that the middleman was selling to (no competition in the bids). I also have no idea exactly how many logs came off that I never got paid for. In hindsight, I am sure it was some. What percentage, I would hate to know. That experience soured me on any deal that didn't have crystal clear transparency and plenty of competition. Live and learn, but that probably cost me $30 to $50K in hindsight.
@@bill-winke that's why we cut honest 50 percent is the norm but even then loads can easily disappear by some guy that needs extra for break down most of em screw ya one way or another
Timber value is a moot point here in the northeast. Anyone who is going to sell their property in this area always cut every valuable tree on their property before they sell. Is this different in The Midwest?
Yes. Some people either don't realize what they have or they don't care. Most properties have at least some decent marketable timber. Maybe not enough to justify a harvest but rarely are they scalped.
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If you are going to sell timber get a forester he will work with you on your goals and send out bid packets to timber buyers the range of bids is unbelievable
Agreed. That is the best way to do it if you want the least risk and least follow up management on your part. Someone (the forester) still has to be on-site regularly during the cut to make sure the logger only takes the trees that were marked. There are ways to sneak trees out even if they are marked. A simple can of spray paint the same color the forester used to mark the trees in the hands of a crook could cost you a few precious logs. You (or someone you trust) has to watch each step of it unless you are dealing with a very reputable log buyer. Good luck.
Is your website still active?
It is, but I don't update it often. I need to do that. I think that site could be a cool resource, but there is only so much time in the day and the site has been neglected. I will figure out how to get that rolling in the next few months. Have a great day.
What are tax issues when one gets paid for selling timber? Critical issue.
It depends in some degree when you cut the timber. Ideally, you cut it shortly after you buy the land and then the timber value can be assumed to be present at time of purchase and you can take that against the basis rather than ordinary income. If you aren't going to cut it right away, it would be in your best interest to get a timber appraisal done on the property and file that away for the future. If you cut it later in time, you may still be able to treat it as basis reduction if it falls below the timber appraisal you got earlier. I am sure there are details here that I am overlooking, so talk to a good accountant. Mine was very helpful in this process. Good luck.
When loggers come thru n say they're taking 200 trees. That does not count the hundreds of trees that will b damaged in the process.
The good ones minimize that. I lost a few trees that way, not a lot. Again, it pays to use experienced cutters even if they are a bit more expensive. That's also why I was on site every day - to head off those kinds of problems.
do the math $100 ac cash rent on $1000 ac cost ground vs. $300ac cash rent on $5000 ac cost ground.
But it wasn't $1,000 per acre when I sold it. That was the average price for the entire farm when I bought it. The farm land/tillable is always worth more than the rough ground in those deals. When you sell off the tillable it should be worth much more than the average price of the entire recreational land parcel.
Go 20 minutes 15 to short Bill
Thanks for the vote of confidence. We have one more episode coming in this mini-series and then we will start to take on the topics that came up in more detail. Good luck.