I appreciate your covering Mike, my mother seems to be a fan of his yet I know little enough about him. I'm not inclined to spend my time watching his sermons. These videos help understand what she's taking in.
No! I am not sick of anything you discuss. I like when you "take down" these idiots (I'll say it because you are the gentleman). Go, SON OF HITCH!!!! Oooops! That has to be said very slowly! :))
I’ll never get tired of seeing Mike Winger get owned. In some ways he’s one of the worst ones because of how much he sanitizes horrible ideas through good looking affability and production values.
When I was 6 or 7 I burned my hand and it was excruciating. My mother took the opportunity to say, "imagine if that feeling was all over your entire body? That's what hell is like FOREVER, it never stops and that's why you don't want to sin." That was absolutely terrifying to me. I never forgot that lesson. Fear is a very effective tool to make people comply.
Personally, I regard that as child abuse, the supreme court views it as protected speech, much like money in politics. Somehow, folks still think the founding (slave owning) founders were geniuses.
That honestly is child abuse. The reason why I hate christianity with burning hell fire is that it TEACHES people to abuse their children mentally like this. I myself suffered similar emotional abuse throughout the years and I don't blame my parents because it's what they sincerely believe. But I hate the religious system that propagates this and if I find a genie in a bottle and it gives me just one wish, I would wish for nothing more than to see personally the destruction of this religion.
It's amazing that if the average human were to be asked about certain things like torture, or debilitating diseases like cancer, the first thing they would say after hearing the effects of those things would be "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy". That sentiment alone, makes most humans more moral than a god who would torture someone for all time, for "sins" committed in the all too short span of a mere human lifetime.
@@YY4Me133 Doing any harm to anybody I find horrific, even when the reason given is ' it will save millions of people ' I can't fathom why such a powerful being, who is supposed to be so loving and merciful, would do this to his creations.
Don 't be a good person because you are afraid of eternal punishment, be a good person because treating others with kindness feels good and makes the world a better place!
*With billions of 'good' people doing 'good' deeds, Our world continues to be a dismal mess, and evil continues to rise unabated. Please explain that.*
"kindness feels good and makes the world a better place"--- I certainly agree with your sentiment, as would St. Catherine of Siena. It is also true, however, that being kind sometimes does not feel good and that the physical earth will eventually be engulfed by the sun despite our best efforts to be good. Feelings and practical utility are certainly good, but they cannot be our ultimate reason for being a good person. Deus caritas est. see also: Treece, Patricia "A Man for Others: Maximilian Kolbe the Saint of Auschwitz" HarperCollins, 1982 Peace be with you.
I met a guy who is now serving 10 years in federal prison over marijuana. The arbitrary nature of hell as punishment for acting as we were creared to be is much like the absurdity of the United States' justice system.
@@Nocturnalux They are very correlated. Only a sick minded conservative bent on revenge and without any empathy would defend the American justice system which incarcerates a higher per captia than any nation on earth (and it's by a long shot). People on the left like to blame "capitalism" but that's not really the root, imho, although greed pays a part for sure, but more a lack of empathy and a high-mindedness that disconnects people from reality (the prison system demonstrably makes things worse, not better). A super irony is that one major effect on crime going down was Roe v Wade. So, yeah, if Christians want less crime, one of the answers is to give women body autonomy. Not without irony, this would carry over to drugs/prostitution, giving people body autonomy ends all kinds of nonsense crimes that only feed the beast.
@@michaelsbeverly I am not American and to this day find it appalling how prisoners cannot vote in the States. In my country, Portugal- hardly one of those borderline utopias in, say, Scandinavia- prisoners can vote. They vote ahead of time, along with the hospitalized. I’m unsure how many prisoners avail themselves of this right, can’t seem to find much info but it is available. And not in a “technically you can vote but not really” kind of way. Everyone is automatically registered to vote when they turn 18 and can vote with the ID card that is issued to all citizens. Prisoners probably do not even need their ID given they are so easily identifiable, being in jail and all that. No death penalty either (hasn’t been a thing since I think the 19th century), maximum term anyone can serve in 25 years (no accumulation either), and all crimes can, and do, have a statute of limitation, including murder and even genocide. And the country is, once again, full of structural issues yet as far as its justice system goes, it is not half as demented as the States.
A kid born today in India, raised by Hindu parents, has friends who are mostly Hindu, lives in a nation that celebrates Hindu holidays and most of their family are Hindu who may grow up to be a wonderful human being who leads a fantastic life, is forever doomed to be tortured for eternity by the omnipotent God who sent them to be born a Hindu, KNOWING they would fail. But John Smith, the serial killer, who has an absolute disregard for life and shows absolutely no remorse or mercy to his victims, can be “saved” at the end of his life and go to the eternal theme park. All of this, of course, God ALSO knew ahead of time. Hell is nothing more than a stop gap, created to make sure the congregation falls in line with the beliefs of the church and never strays. Without hell or the devil, this school of thought would have died out in the bronze age.
The best is when they accuse you of unbelief because you want to sin or you don’t want to face the consequences for your sins. As if getting out of jail free isn’t exactly what Christianity was designed to do.
@@frederickfairlieesq5316 Correct. If the only reason someone wanted to be Agnostic or Atheist is to sin, then it would be MASSIVELY advantageous for them, to REAMIN a Christian. Go to Church, pray with all of your heart, or say some Our Father’s in a row and BAM, right back square with the house again.
@@ucanliv4ever I know everything I need to know about JW’s. Know all about your “new system” that you’re always insisting is JUST AROUND THE CORNER after Armageddon. I’m also very aware how often your members are called, “good for nothing slaves”. Appreciate your comment, I will NEVER be going to your website.
Exactly, I love how you said it; if the god of the Bible existed, he would be evil. He would not be worthy of worship. And this tautological, circular argument that we can trust God because he’s good and he’s good because he’s God just doesn’t cut it.
Divorce is not an active punishment inflicted on someone. Divorce is deciding to not deal with someone anymore. Hell is an active punishment because it requires an effort to inflict deliberate pain. If an ex husband imprisoned his cheating wife in a basement and tortured her for 20 years, then Mike's analogy would make sense. Mike's analogy doesn't work because ex-wife is not entitled to her ex-husbands time and effort. That is something you have to keep earning.
"this state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (Catechism of the Catholic Church) “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you…” (John 5)
"whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation... and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness" (Wisdom 17)
exactly. same thing with the prison analogy. we don’t throw people in prison and torture them for the rest of their lives (ideally anyway). we just separate them from society so they can’t hurt others. they still get food and clothes and shelter. i’ve recently thought of that: why would there have to be such polar opposite places for people’s spirits to go? okay maybe god can’t be around sin, fine, but just….put them somewhere else? why does the “somewhere else” have to be permanent, unending torment? i’ve said it before, but it’s punitive for punitive’s sake. there’s no betterment or improvement occurring. just suffering with no goal.
I get what you're saying but the divorce thing fails for me completely. Marriage (at least in Western culture) presumably is a free will choice between two consenting adults who have spent time together and have made an informed choice. Divorce is a consequence of a violation (extreme, repeated or not) or someone made a choice to do something different. God isn't presenting people with the opportunity to make an informed choice. Asking questions and doubting him is a sin. Accept him based on what he says about himself, worship him (despite violence behavior) or he'll set you on fire. There's no free will choice. God is pretty much saying to commit to him or he'll torture you in hell for eternity. This isn't a relationship. I'm not cheating on anyone and I haven't been violent. The only person threatening violence is god.
@@TaeyxBlack "we just separate them"--- Separated from God? God is existence in and of Himself. God is Love. "In departing from God, the ungodly have brought death on themselves through the unjust things they have said and done. They yearn for death as if it were a lover. They have gone into partnership with death, and they obtain what they have imagined" (Wisdom 1)
@@MindShift-Brandon "this state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (Catechism of the Catholic Church) “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you…” (John 5)
"whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation... and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness" (Wisdom 17)
@@carlasmith9093 "why are there so many different interpretations of hell within Christianity?"--- It would be prudent to distinguish between speculation and doctrine (or dogma). The Church provides dogmatic teaching about hell which is very generalized and recognizes the limitations of our ability as humans to understand certain realities that are so far removed from our common experience. Keep in mind that all other denominations came out from The Church at some point in history. Often these schisms occured because of speculation. The Church, like a referee says, in effect "Here are the basics. You are free to question and speculate, but don't confuse your personal speculations with dogma". So today, you have thousands of sects and each with their own speculations about hell, (and many other topics). The speculations themselves are not the problem, but rather the insistence that they are something more than speculations. Each sect sees their own highly detailed speculation as dogma, when real Church dogma is actually very generalized. Heaven & Hell are simply an assertion that reality has consequences, but we cannot fully appreciate the entirety of those consequences. A three-year-old cannot understand the misery of being a thirty-year-old drug-addicted prostitute. But we know and we are certain that every thirty-year-old drug-addicted prostitute was a beautiful and innocent three-year-old at one point. Teaching about consequences is never meant to condem, but rather to save. "the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9) "when Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (John 8) Peace be with you.
If the gradient approaches 0, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that we are already in the 13700000000th year of Hell, here on Earth. There is just enough suffering to hurt, but we are consistently getting better. It won't be long before Hell will dry out xD
This reminds me of the punishment where you have to hold out a pencil at arm's length for an extended time. After enough of a while, even a mere pencil feels like it weighs a ton because your arm gets too tired to hold that position for much longer.
@@MrCanis4 I'd actually be interested in a psych evaluation of him, or even an MRI scan - to test whether he's a psychopath. He certainly comes off as one in my opinion...
I can't believe Mike said that. "Just trust it, even if you don't understand it." But I'm glad he did because it focuses and highlights the central problems with his entire presentation. He doesn't know exactly how hell works. He doesn't know exactly how we can avoid going there. He doesn't even know that hell exists. But it is just, because it has to be. You can't justify things you can't even define. He could have made a more concise presentation, and just said "Just trust God, and don't think too hard about what any of this means". I don't think the problems are all Mike's fault. I think he's working with concepts and claims that are extremely ill defined in the bible. But I am not fond of his air of authority, on matters where he admits lack of knowledge.
absolutely Even under the idea that humans could not completely understand that reasons of an infinite being, the very concept of *eternal* torture or suffering is fundamentally antithetical to our very notions of morality.
yea the major problems we are having in the world is is becuase peaople "just belive in the science" yet the "Science" was skwed and paid for and effed up, just blindly follow what you are told, volitair. "for beelzabub has never seen a soilder quite like me, i do as i am told, this is why im evil" look at all those suffering now becuase they keep blindly beliving what the lairs microsoft tell them?
Sounds like you've got it all together and have arrived at the ultimate level of Truth that's available in the entire Universe🎉please tell us how you got there...
@@CheknoEternity Even a vague brushing over of archeological findings from the last 40 years confirms these so-called 'mythical' rulers, places and peoples. I recommend you look into the work of the late Dr. Michael Heiser for an unbiased, scholarly critique of the ancient world. His book 'Unseen Realm' was a 15 year project with a wealth of footnotes for any sceptic's enjoyment. Best of Luck. 👍
Thank you for these videos. I only found you recently, but they have made my deconstruction and spiritual departure from religion a much calmer and fulfilling experience. Thank you for validating the struggle and what it takes to get out.
@@20july1944Same reason I read the Bible which is barbaric and a programmed fabrication of human mentality. That's where my journey to spirituality begins.
He gives an excuse for Hell, and then just in case that excuse doesn't work for you, he has a backup excuse that contradicts the first one. And then if THAT excuse doesn't work, then he has a third excuse that contradicts the other two. But all those excuses don't work for you, he says just don't think about it. You'll understand it after you die.
I had an interesting interaction recently. A person replied to a comment I made on the video of an atheist channel. I think it was Paulogia but I could be wrong. It was basically repent or find out the hard way type nonsense. Basically a threat on behalf of god, wrapped in the language of grace and love. I basically told him I don’t need to repent because all my actions were predetermined by god. His response was god gave me free will so god is not responsible for my sins. I responded by telling him I have simply used my free Will to never sin, and asked him why he doesn’t just do the same thing. That way he won’t need to repent. He sensed the intellectual trap I was laying and responded that he would not engage with any question I asked him until I first proved God doesn’t exist. I explained burden of proof and the impossibility of proving a negative, and called him out for being a coward and dodging the point. If you can’t ever stop sinning which is what Mike seems to be suggesting, that even in hell we cannot stop sinning, there is no free will. There is apparently no way to ever stop or not sin. That a design flaw by the creator.
I like your way of handling the free will defense. There’s a video from a TikTok apologist where he makes the case that we are not being punished for Adam’s sin because God knows we would all make the same choice if we were in Adam’s situation. In other words, sin is a necessary entailment of morally significant free will. He then immediately undercut his own position on free will by affirming that we are not free to not sin. 🤦♂️ Throw in the serpent being allowed to speak to Adam and Eve (with God’s blessing), and it is crystal clear that people in hell were put there by God.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. 25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” Ezekiel 18:20-32
At some point, I feel like we're arguing with children: their emotional teddy bear is under threat, so they will say literally anything to protect it. They could straight up say, "The Holocaust was a good thing because it was God exercising his divine right to punish the Jews" with a straight face.
Even as a Christian I never liked mike winger , very cringey man. Now as an ex fundamentalist Christian , my mom still sends me his videos to try to bring me back. I never get tired of you covering his videos!🙌🏼 love your content
@@20july1944The evidence against Christianity is that all of the "evidence" FOR Christianity is bullshit that is only convincing for someone who's either been brainwashed to believe it already, or has the critical thinking skills of a wet sponge (or chooses to set aside those skills for emotional comfort). Not believing absurd fairy tales with magic, monsters, wizards, dragons, giants, and heroes with superhuman powers is (or should be) the DEFAULT position, otherwise you should believe in every other religion that's ever existed, because all of them rely on the same bullshit "evidence."
As an atheist, I have zero worries about Hell, even if I am wrong and it exists. Since the only unforgivable sin is not believing in the Christian God, I guarantee I will start believing in it just as soon as I "wake up" there and then the "all forgiving" God will have no choice but to accept me into Heaven. See, no worries, and I didn't even have to waste any Sunday mornings in church or give 10% of my money away.
God warns us in the scriptures that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of men, who suffered and died for our sins and rose again the third day according to the scriptures to be saved or we will perish (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, John 3:16). We have this life in which to trust in Christ and receive his gift of eternal life (see Romans 6:23). After death, a person no longer has the opportunity to be saved but will be in hell (see the rich man's experience in Luke 16:19-31). Jesus warned, ...for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins (John 8:24b). It is not God's will that any person perish, but that all come to repentance (see 2 Peter 3:9).
@@sdlorah6450 If “we must believe on ….Jesus…….to be saved”, what about those who die as babies; THEY didn’t “believe on Jesus” , so according to you, THEY cannot be “saved”; is hell full of babies then? Furthermore, what about those who lived before Jesus; what about those born into cultures where they never hear of Jesus; are they condemned simply because of the timing or geography of their birth! As for “it is not god’s will that any should perish”, if your god is omniscient, he knew before he created us that the vast majority would “perish” , and just to make sure that happened, he maliciously created Lucifer.
I think it does say somewhere that you can still earn salvation after death so 🤷♀️ I don't really know why Christians worry so much anyway. If I'm wrong then I will have more information, and more importantly be able to give informed consent about where I spend my time.
There he goes saying the silent part out loud. "God is wholly just and good. If he's punishing people this strongly, then people must be sinning really bad. That's the logical perspective, I think. It's _illogical_ to think 'well God must be wrong!'." I cannot overstate how much of a red flag this is. This flag is dripping red, and that is NOT paint. This is the warning sign that something has gone HORRIBLY wrong in your mind. The idea that "God is Good" is so fundamental, so basic, that it is taken as unchallengable, unassailable, axiomatic. It is the ground on which ALL of this person's beliefs have been built, same as a building rests on a concrete slab. Stable, level, safe. But this idea isn't at all stable. It isn't a given. It hasn't been shown to be true, and many, MANY things show it to be wrong. But because the idea is treated this way in his mind, and the mind of many a believer, it wins all disagreements by default. In theory, God could walk up to Mike Winger, slap him across the face, break his arm, say "I did that for fun", and walk away, and Mike would STILL think his God was all-good. "It must be because I sinned. It makes perfect sense that God would enjoy punishing sin, it is the ultimate good deed, and good deeds SHOULD be fun." There is always always ALWAYS some new excuse to be made. Some way you can bend and contort your thinking to keep it true. Which means the fact that you CAN do this DOES NOT PROVE YOU RIGHT. If you have to contort that hard for reality to be reality, something has gone horribly wrong. So what are you supposed to do instead? Just callously rip out the foundation on which your entire reality rests?! That's insane, no one in their right mind would do that. ....Well I'm sorry, but yes, that is exactly what you must do. Ever hear ex-Christians tell the story of how they left the faith, feeling like they lost everything, even their very identity? They did it. They saw that the tower that was their reality was collapsing under its own weight, traced the problem back to the faulty foundation on which it rested, battled with themselves, sometimes for YEARS, until finally admitting that there was nothing left to do but topple the entire tower of "truth", right down to the twisted foundation, replace it with something that's actually sturdy, and start all over again. Does that suck? Yes. Is that horrible, painful, and the very last thing any human being wants to go through? Yes. But the longer you ignore it, the worse the wobble gets. The tower will fall on its own some day. it will be so much easier to start now, when you have less invested in it. Ask yourself the tough questions _today._ Push on the tower. If it budges, it wasn't built properly to begin with. A foundation in ACTUAL truth, buildings made of beliefs that are factually correct, can never be pushed around or toppled with hard-hitting questions. It is _impossible._ You can't disprove reality using reality. How could you? But for some reason, you very much _can_ disprove God's Divine Word using reality. I wonder why.
So wait. Let me get this straight. The game, rigged from the start by the gamemaster, who knows the outcome before you ever play, is designed in such a way that when you go to hell (which the Abrahamic god knows you're going to go to no matter what you do in your life good or bad), that you're going to be stuck there because you continue to be tortured for eternity, for failing the rules of the game that you couldn't ever possibly win at in the first place. And that's supposed to be YOUR fault? Not the Abrahamic god's. Is that what Mike Winger's entire argument is?
@@rodseller9936 Yes, because God claims to be good and to love everyone in some parts of the bible, while in other parts he claims to only love those whom he has chosen (or predestined) while not loving everyone else, while in other parts he doesn't act like he even loves his chosen people. God is not only not upfront with his intentions, but it doesn't seem as though God has even made up his mind regarding his intentions.
@leonticonderoga-h6i You lie. Yahweh does not that keep his word. His intentions are not up front. I have concluded that even if I obey I still perish.
@@BennyTwennyGrand Well, take your pick. There are geographical locations that support what the Bible states; Sodom and Gomorrah has been found along with Noah's Ark and the garden where Jesus was burried etc. Then you have all the prophecies that either have come true or are coming true; Euphrates River drying, sin's on the rise, money is being fazed out, wars and rumours of wars, people hate Jesus, natural disasters. There is evidence of a worldwide flood. There's so much evidence that is not just false claims.... People REFUSE to open their eyes.
Thank you once again. The fear of hell can follow someone around for a long time after deconversion. Honestly, there are many reasons why I am an unbeliever but one of the main ones is that religion only added to my lack of self esteem and feeling bad, broken and unworthy. Once I let go of it, it has increased my self esteem so much and I am not someone who would deserve such a horrible place for being human, making mistakes or not believing.
I love the series finale of Netflix "Lucifer" in which Lucifer Morningstar realizes that his role in the cosmos is not necessarily a punisher. He could be a therapist as he helps lost souls regain their moral footing and escape hell. It's a brilliant parodic contrast between the therapeutic model of psychology and the morality of the Christian god.
While I do question how the show runs with the premise, I enjoy the premise itself. Even back when I was Christian, I could not help but notice the meaning of Lucifer's name and end up comparing it to the myth of Prometheus. Funnily enough, you know what ensured that the premise of Lucifer not being a villain would always be interesting to me? A light fixture company... in San Antonio, Texas... that, according to their website, has been in business and servicing public places for over 40 years (so they would have been operating, assuming their name never changed, through the satanic panic). It might have also contributed to why one of my favorite pizza chains is Hell Pizza, which has a big ol' 666 plastered on their boxes.
I enjoyed that show and when I was a Christian, I loved that happy ending of Lucifer helping those lost souls in hell. Then again I wasn’t in that hell being a torture place doctrine.
In response to saying people in hell will just want heaven and not Christ, I think it’s important to point out that many people become Christians simply to avoid Hell, not for the transformative power of Christ or whatever he said.
Perhaps, but if they fully engage with the faith and its tenets, that isn't the sole reason they persist as Christians. It's wise to jump out of the way if you're walking on train tracks and see a train suddenly barreling down on you. The fear of death made you jump, and it was a rightful and wise fear in the moment. However, you don't stay off the tracks simply because of fear. Rather, because you affirm the value of your life and staying off the tracks prolongs all the good things you experience in your life - as you are not in danger of being killed by a suddenly appearing train. It's much the same with faith in Christ. It may be that some come to Christ simply to avoid hell. But would that be a wrong motivation, given their belief that God A) exists, B) can and will sentence them there unless they repent and C) do not want to end up there? I don't think so. I think it is entirely rational.
@a.j1031 Fear of hell is a terrible motivation because that motivation of fear eventually drives people towards trauma and resentment and is a means of god exploiting fear to minipulate the masses, such as kids having nightmares of religious traumatic experience of god sending them to fiery pit of doom thanks to some parents who tell thier kids. That's nor any indication of loving father but rather an abusive one. Just like what happened to Job. If god is supposed to be all about benevolence creates a system of negative reinforcement where fear of hell is the greatest motivation, then how can you rationally expect any human being to find that is a loving relationship? It all it becomes is just tip toeing around a singular path without offending you're father and rocking the boat without any new ideas.
Very well said, Brandon. I remember how scared of death I was, growing up as a Catholic. Imagine a six year old boy having trouble sleeping because of how bad both heaven and hell sounded, and there was no escape. Even with the best intentions, Christian indoctrination can be so harmful to a very young person. Interestingly, now that I am an atheist I am not afraid of death at all. I don't know what will happen or if anything happens at all after death, but I know it's almost certainly not what the Bible says.
"growing up as a Catholic"--- "there were they in great fear, where no fear was" (Psalm 53) "this state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (Catechism of the Catholic Church) “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you…” (John 5)
"whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation... and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness" (Wisdom 17) Peace be with you.
Reminds me of the Prophet of Zod story about his childhood where he was extremely afraid of dying and going to hell before he was old enough to go to an outside pastor (so his own people wouldn't know about his doubts) and ask how to really really really get saved. If that it's a total mind-f**k I don't know what is. I was once, for a few years, in the AOG church so I said the sinner's pray about 3 x a week....haha....boy, I was saved again and again...
@@michaelsbeverly " I was saved" --- Please clarify what that phrase meant to you at the time, or what your expectations were in expressing that phrase. "In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1821)
@@andrewferg8737 lol......... If I wasn't saved, either are you, unless you claim YOUR church is the only one that's saved and every other denomination is damned to hell...... *What do you claim is required for salvation?* Give me your list and I'll confirm or deny whether I met YOUR standards....hahahaha... If you believe ONLY Catholics are saved, fine, I was never saved, and I'm on the same ground as an athiest as half of Christians (who aren't really Christians, I guess, lol). you see how stupid this game is? _"In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved"_ Yet another proof that hope in God is as meaningless as hope that Santa will show up with presents and PROOF that prayer doesn't work.
Nice point by point breakdown by Brandon. 😂 Mike's incoherent, contradictory and logically faulty attempt at justifying the unjustifiable was painful to observe. 😢
Thanks for your intelligent comments. The Bible is a mess of contradictions written by people thousands of years ago. No wonder there are so many different denominations.
The Bible doesn't contradict itself. You just don't know how to decipher it. The bible was written by holy men under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It wasn't just a group of men sharing their ideas. GOD'S WORD IS DIVINE.
How can you sin in hell, people would be to busy screaming and crying in pain to even speak or think. I didn't realized how much this book can halt critical thinking. The world needs critical thinkers
ua-cam.com/video/BqcDXIx6CA8/v-deo.html yep havent seen anybody come up with a valid argument against this besides that cant proove God is love or fear but as for anything else none came up with anything legitmate.
I completely disagree. If there was no punishment (in whatever form), there couldn't *be* any mercy. There would be nothing to be saved/pardonned from. There would also be no justice, and, it seems to me that one of the reasons the world hates God is that "he let's evil abound." Yet, they also call him unjust *because* there might be this place where people *are* punished if they keep doing wrong unrepentantly.
@@elizabethryan2217 lts one thing to say that punishment is justified but its entirely different story when you say that infinite torture for finite crimes, regardles of the degree of severity, is justified. Infinite torture entirely contradicts or at very least seems counterintuitive to god's tradmark mercy or benevolence that he is often known for, especially when you factor the idea that you dont have to be a ruthless coldblooded person to sin and get on gods enemy hit list. You can be a loving non christian that may be different but still civil moral standard contrary to gods way but yet still get the same infinite torture as Hitler, so does that exactly add up to God being the ultimate embodiment of love or mercy compared to a mere lowly human who would say that he wouldnt wish that on his own worst enemy? So it seems rather perplexing.
@@evanurena8868 @evanurena8868 hi. Yes, I understand why people struggle with that. However, I keep being reminded that our standards as human beings for what classifies as righteousness/goodness/purity are so far below God's standards. I've been more and more conscious over recent years how unaware - and sadly, often unconcerned - we can be of the consequences of our own sin on other people (and ourselves.) We tend to shrug things of - sometimes with a bite of a lip or a guilty grin, if even that - and say "that's life 🤷♀️" or "it was only x/y/z" ..or "everyone does it" .. when we absolutely don’t have to and shouldn't. I think if we could really see the long- and short-term effects of our wrongs on other people, we should be dismayed. God gives us ample time to come to him for help to put that right and be the people he created us to be. If we don't, then vengeance for those we have wronged is punished. And if we haven't *accepted* Christ's payment for us on the cross (with his time in hell), then we have to pay it ourselves 😢 Edit: sorry, I'm not really sure if I answered your question properly. I think the nub of what I mean is that we don't realise how serious sin is. For whatever reason (i didn't set the scales): apparently *all* sin deserves death. (Whether that's eternal torture or not, I don't know.) I do think that if we could see more clearly the effects of our sin, we would understand and accept that better. But there it is. And if we don't accept the debt that was paid for us, we have to pay it ourselves. Personally, I don't have a particular issue believing that eternal torment is just punishment if someone is unconcerned about dealing with the eternal consequences of their actions in this life.
Your videos help me heal!! They validate and confirm my deconstruction process in the most profound LIFE giving way! I love knowing I get to turn on one of your videos and learn new, profound concepts that I can't believe I never recognized before! I've never supported a channel financially but I'm going to set up financial support asap.
Great format! It was fun to feel like we all watched the video together and reacted. Its almost painful to watch apologists repeat talking points I was previously convinced by. Thanks for covering these topics!
Listening to an ex-pastor talk about how much the punishment of hell doesn’t make sense is actually what led me to atheism. These religions just don’t make any sense.
Eternal burning torment would only be NECESSARY if two reasons were BOTH true: 1. The souls of all humans are immortal (i.e. all souls become conscious after conception and continue to exist into eternity future), and 2. The corrupting seed of sin that we receive from our parents grows progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Even a speck of sin is the seed of a future satanic being within. No matter how kind and gentle a nonbeliever may seem to you at the moment, God sees the sin inside them growing. Ephesians 4:22 (NASB) says, “That, in reference to your former way of life, you are to rid yourselves of the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit.” 2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) says, “But evil people and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Galatians 5:9 (NASB) says, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.” Colossians 1:21 (NLT) says, “This includes you (Gentiles before they became Christians) who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.” Ephesians 2:12 (NASB) says, “Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.” For this reason, God knows that their immortal soul is on track to being another satanic-like being in the future. And since their soul exists forever, if they do not obtain salvation through Jesus, God must eternally separate them from Himself and those who will be in heaven. But He loves His enemies and has made a way out of our hopeless situation through the person of Jesus Christ if we accept Him before we die. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (NLT), “And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.” Look at the current behavior of Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage. They are the end products of complete corruption. John 10:10a (NASB) says, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.” How can anyone contain satanic evil in a group of lost immortal humans and angels? Do you remember what God said in Genesis about the abilities of humans? God reveals something about humans in Genesis 11:6 (NLT), “‘Look!’ he said. ‘The people are united, and they all speak the same language. After this, nothing they set out to do will be impossible for them!’” Eternal pain will eternally contain the lost souls’ thoughts and attention. They will forever be in such torment that they can never unify to break forth and spread corruption again. Bottom line - the sin (selfishness) in lost people is growing progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Death does not stop the progression. Every lost person will end up completely corrupted like Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage so that all they want to do is “steal, kill and destroy.” Eternal separation and containment in torment are necessary.
I can’t believe he said if you’re still conscious you can still sin. Implying that people in heaven are unconscious because there is no sin or that you can still sin in heaven. And i’m sure that if you asked Mike whether you are a conscious being in heaven and that there is no sin in heaven he would then say yes to both. Make it make sense Brandon!!!
This video brought back some fear of hell for me. In the end, i have decided that i have little control over where i spend eternity. Whatever will be will be
You are a sinner, and your sin is the reason you will go to hell. However, Christ died to take the penalty for your sin. If you agree with God that you are a sinner, you're already halfway there. The only thing left is confess to Him, and place your faith in Christ so you'll be forgiven. The next step is to join a fellowship of believers, so you can share your struggles and be encouraged in the new way of life you've chosen. We're addicts to sin from birth. Going to church is like going to AA/NA meetings.
How's dare even a transformers war in heavenly kingdom perfect paradise?? Thought SIN iz kryptonite to gawd and can't be near it or devoid of dis SIN we're told bout.
On top of that could there be another rebellion that would cause billions of people to fall from heaven? They say we will maintain our free will in heaven but we won't want to sin. Like the guy above said why would Lucifer want to sin along with 1/3 of the angels to overthrow Gawd?
The difficulty with Mike is evident in the conversations and debates he’s had in the past, where he conflates criticism with personal attacks. When one believes that an interpretation of a text comes from a conversation with God, there comes a blurring of God and self and the commandment of a deity and the personal opinion of the religious follower. I don’t think the merging of God and self is intended, but when there is no being outside of oneself to which one may point, then God and self becomes intertwined.
@@DHPersonal Yeah, the fundamentalist inability to understand that their personal, subjective interpretation of their scripture is indeed personal and subjective and not indicative of absolute truths handed down directly from God that should be obvious to everyone can make it very difficult to have an honest conversation. To be fair, I think it is a very difficult thing for EVERYONE to realize the subjectivity of their beliefs on extremely complex topics. It just becomes significantly more problematic when that topic involves believing you have special access to the mind and will of God.
Fortunately I was never indoctrinated, but I enjoy your videos and I commend your cause, trying to ease people’s confusion and pain caused by the religion. You and kristi Burke are the best!
Hey Brandon, my name is Titus and both my parents are worship leaders at a church of god (pentecostal but less cultish) so I’ve been raised in the church and have been being forced to go every Wednesday, Sunday morning and Sunday night sense birth I’m 15 and I’ve been having doubts of christianity sense i was 11 i found your channel three months ago and i just wanted to say all the problems that i thought i saw but i didn’t want to believe because hell doesn’t sound like a very fun place(not to meatride but your video about overcoming the fear of hell helped me alot, i really just want to thank you) you pointed out in a clear way and ive been reading the scriptures in your videos and it is astounding to me that a priest/ believer can read any of it and justify it in any way at all so i just wanted to say thank you ive recently came out as agnostic to my parents (they didnt take it very well) and my step dad forced me to talk to my churches main pastor and he hardly get a word out and kept using “he owns us so he can do whatever he wants” which i find incredibly immoral and horrendous to think about but hard to argue with can you help? You dont have a if you dont want too and it didnt convince me in any way but i really just want some way to dismiss that if it comes up in further arguments because “thats horribly immoral” didn’t really work as you could imagine thanks for everything you do
Hey man. Thanks so much for the kind reply. Im so impressed with your courage and you are literally decades ahead of me. I wish i had a better rebuttal for you but that line of thinking is impossible to argue with. Theres no rationality. I would however suggest that if gods morality is so ultimate why doesnt even he follow it? A video like mine from last sunday on gods objective morality could give some ammo
@@MindShift-Brandon I was just watching that video before this video! It really sucks that you can use that “ he owns us and made us” line, but it objectively doesnt make sense if hes an all loving and forgiving god thank you for your videos are always informative and helpful keep doing what your doing man, peace ✌️
@@Eviserix I fear you're being led wrong by what you think is reason. It is not. Brandon is a man who hates God. You say that going to church has been part of your upbringing. I understand having questions, but can you honestly say that you hate God?
It helps to imagine Mike Winger talking with the same enthusiasm and sincerity about reconciling issues with the Silmarillion, or whether midichlorians were already foreshadowed in Episodes IV-VI...
I'm at Point #2 and Jesus Christ (pun intended), what a wild thing to say. "Yeah you're being tortured forever but you can still be prideful and that's bad"
@@chaseblock6358if that's true and most if us go there then would you agree solomon was right about life in ecclesiastes 4:3 ? Better are they who have never been? Did Solomon understand what you are saying is correct and reach this conclusion based on your premise?
@chaseblock6358 This kind of relates to the might makes right fallacy where an offense towards something more powerful equates the right for such a powerful something to dish out a harsher punishment, which is incorrect, because usually a punishement is given based on the severity of the public or society's well being, not towards the position of power itself. A person can commit a crime against the federal government but the feds will judge it relative to the severity of the nation or people's safety, not because of how the feds feel offended by it.
I never believed Hell existed until I dicovered that Mike Winger held an 11 hour video on “Women in Ministry” Series. Now imagine sitting through that; about as close to hell as it could get I would imagine.😏
I really appreciate the methodical approach you use to address these arguments. Its a good mix of appropriate indignation and measured response to ideas that are frankly disgusting.
My faith took a serious hit the day I realised that people don’t respond to punishment, only correction, empathy, and understanding. Punishment is one dimensional, reductive, and impermanent. Not to mention that when I became a father, I quickly realised how shit god was at being one. I came from a home that used corporal punishment, and until I met my wife, I thought that was okay to physically discipline any children we would have. Now, I would rather set fire to my own junk than raise a hand to a child.
spot on. Ive learned positive reinforcement training for my dog and it works for human as well. Coercion and positive punishment has severe fall-out. It made me hate my parents. That is one reason I hated church as a child. I hated the ultimatum of do this or else.
I don't quite think the point of hell is to generate a response. It is final judgment. What God desires your response to is the Gospel of Jesus Christ - the loving action He took on your behalf.
Well-done response as always, Brandon. And while I really dislike Mike Winger & utterly despise his beliefs, the size of his following and the horrific views that he holds make him a good “target,” so to speak. They need to be addressed and shown to be the monstrous ideas they are.
It's heaven. It's where God is and you exist in His infinite pleasure. Is it possible that heaven can be more immediately meaningful to the creatures inhabiting it than the fate of the ones who aren't there to experience it? Is it possible that time blunts the trauma of remembering their fate?
Currently at the gym Brandon, and I love watching your videos, ever since the beginning. I'm working the muscles and the brains, and fortunately not doing mental gymnastics.
Brandon, Thanks again for your videos. I wish I could support you via Patreon but I just can't do it right now, so I continue to support with likes and comments, my dude. Just an update on me, I am slowly moving closer to the "dark side" lol, but I do still fear hell and the possibility of being wrong. I've been doing a lot of research on the historicity and probability of the resurrection, and I am at a place where I am not convinced by either side. I go back and forth. Still holding on to faith, but not sure I should....idk. Things are very confusing. I am also scared to not believe for many reasons, but I do agree with much of what you are saying. IDK, man. But thanks again.
Tough spot, My man. But im happy you’re still working snd looking into it all. Im hearing more of why you dont want to admit the truth then that you dont know what the truth is. That will fade eventually and at some point these beliefs will be as foreign and ridiculous as the greek myths. You dont lose any sleep over zeus. Yahwehs next lol. Thanks for the support!
Thank you Mindshift for all you videos. I am now far from enslavement of faith and religion. All was replaced by knowledge and the desire to know truth and logical evidence. I hope you save more poor minds like me enslaved by god and religion. With gratitude from Manila, Philippines.
“Inspiring philosophy” has the best video on hell imo, even if most Christians don’t hold his view, it seems the most consistent with scripture. I’d love to see you react to that. Great work btw. Although I am still a Christian, you challenge me to think, which I actually enjoy.
The argument (excuse) of “you stay in hell because you continue to sin for eternity is yet another example of why I believe God would make a great villain. Like you said, this is ETERNITY we are speaking, and that means eventually we would get bored of whatever we are (doing wrong) and want to stop, not to mention the eternal suffering would probably make us not even want to focus on said supposed sin. But my point is, the fact that god assumes we are going to sin for all of eternity, so we stay in hell, just means that god gave up on these people. I mean think about it, if god (an immortal all knowing, all living being, TRULY loved us, he would be with every single one of us in hell, talking to us, trying to help us, trying to work us through the process so we can be better people, like a kind of therapist. He’s just throwing us in the bin like we are forever tainted goods, that’s not something many parents would do, there are tons of parents that try their best to support their kids even when they do awful things, but it’s supposedly too hard for an almighty (all loving god?) All I’m really saying is, why isn’t there a therapy room with relaxing music and coffee with a bunch of angels that sit sinners down and talk with them. It’s pretty monstrous that god would just throw people out and then assume they will stay that way. He basically believes that we can’t change, and he isn’t helping us through it. And like, even if these people are willing to sin, god should be helping us through it. Gotta love how when your alive, god apparently has a plan, and is making it so things go the way he wants, (or something). But when your in hell he can’t do anything about it, he suddenly can’t intervene like how he apparently does in all the “good things”/miracles he does.
I imagine that the experience of hell would break the mind in such a way that you aren't really there anymore. I feel that the human mind would disasociate till you just aren't concious anymore.
Thank you so much Brandon this was another wonderful great video and we encourage you to keep making these videos We can never get sick of your content You are helping a lot of us who are going through these discomforts based off of the fear that we were conditioned to follow through this belief system especially eternal punishment. I believe this eternal punishment concept takes away not only the human experience but even dying in peace, nobody will have that comfort of their loved ones passing away whether that's elderly without worrying about where their destination might be it's very stressful and it is stressful enough that we have to think about the inevitable which is death unless someday we find a way to live forever and stay youthful when technology grows sorry for the rant but I believe if we found a way to live forever and stay young forever this would definitely defeat religion sort of there will still be the fear of that being taken away but great video will love to hear more about that
Mikes audience goes along with whatever he says without thinking about it very much. He is one of the guys who huddles together with those he is trying to control and make it a club that doesn't want the other kids to play with them. Eighth grade mentality at most.
Mike winger's arguments generally are summed up with "heart issue", which means nothing, but in essence it's "it's your fault deal with it" Which I think is a good representation of apologetics
13:20 There is someone who escaped from Hell during the mid seventies... his name was Meatloaf, and he wrote a testimony about it, it's called "Bat out of Hell" - True story
The whole sinning in hell thing sounds so dumb. How am I going to keep sinning while I’m experiencing varying degrees of torture? Do they stop the torture and let me experience enough clarity to actively sin again??
One need only look at the story of the rich man and Lazarus. "The rich man also died and was buried, and in hell he lifted up his eyes..." He then goes on to have a meaningful conversation with Abraham while being tormented in flame. The story as told by Jesus seems to indicate that the torment in hell does not necessarily overwhelm one's ability to think and reason. The rich man is still sensate in hell, though tormented.
i've always loved listening to & having what i like to call cozy union meeting speeches, & Brandon, i have 2 honestly & sincerely tell you that all, All of these mindshift podcasts of yours R just like very cozy, union meeting speeches 2 me so! which also means that they're all, all very therapeutic 4 me 2 listen 2 they all hellp me relax a whole lot more, and 2 sleep better at night! 2 all the other psychotherapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists i've seen throughout the course of my life, i say move over 2 them, & now usher U in as the, well, let's just put it this way by saying that with a cozy sounding, spiritually comforting podcast therapist like U, I'll never need 2 have or seek out any other kind of personal therapy hellp again in my life!! U saved me here with all these spiritually cozy, comforting so called by me union meeting speech podcasts of yours, my speciall brother, friend, & teacher so!! Amen 2 everything you've said in all of them so!! God 4Ever Bless U in all of your continuing podcast work reaching out 2 everybody the way you've been doing so thus far!! ❤❤❤❤😂😂😂😂😅😅😅😅😊😊😊😊
Thought experiment for Christians: if God had never sent Jesus as a way of getting out of hell, but instead just let every human who was ever born just end up in hell, and he just let this system go on and on, generation after generation after generation of everybody being born and then going to hell, would that be justice? Why or why not?
It would be justice, yes, because the holy nature of God demands that sin be punished. However, what we find from scripture is a God who is not only just, but loving. It is this quality of love that caused Him to furnish a plan in order to circumvent for us the just punishment we all deserve for having sinned. Furthermore, it is His magnanimity which made the currency of exchange for forgiveness something we all have and can trade in: belief. Lying is wrong, and uncontrolled lust, hatred of persons for arbitrary reasons. We can all agree to that now from a basic moral standard. So, many of us are halfway to salvation because we know these things aren't best. To go the rest of the way we simply need to accept that God is the ground for these moral standards, and the one whose authority was flouted when we engaged in such things. Once we do and confess, He is willing to forgive and accept us as sons and daughters. And as we place our belief in Christ, He applies the righteousness of Christ to us so that we no longer need fear eternal damnation.
@@a.j1031 “It would be justice, yes.” So in my hypothetical scenario, a person is born, by God’s will; finds themself to be a human being in the world; finds themself beset with a sin nature they did not ask for; finds themself in a world in which they can not help but sin. Then they are punished eternally because of this. Whether you believe in “original sin” or not, I think the fact that every single human that has ever lived has sinned, indicates it’s a no-win scenario. Then, this person is punished eternally. A vessel created for destruction, for the glory of God. And you find this to be a just scenario, even if hypothetically. Well to that all I can say is, I disagree. To me that seems the height of injustice.
@@MarkSheeres Yes, it is impossible for us to win in this scenario without external intervention. What your scenarios always seem to exclude is that God Himself stepped into spacetime as a real human being and went through great pains to make possible the redemption of those who without His direct aid could not help themselves - namely, all sinners. It would be one thing if God sat on one side and watched as we all marched into hell with no remedy. That is not what you get with the God of the Bible. He is both aggrieved by the sin we commit and the provider of its cure, and that at great personal cost. You cannot leave that out of the Gospel narrative. Further, I do find it to be just that sin should be punished. Let's not pretend sin is simply telling a white lie or stealing a long, lustful glance. Among sinners you have rapists, murderers, child sex-traffickers, brutal despots, drug smugglers, slave traders - the list goes on. The question is, how did all of these sins come to be? Are the people who commit these types of sins special cases possessive of some depraved trait the greater majority of us do not share? If sin is putting our own preferences over and above God's standards and boundaries then, yes, we've all sinned. Adam had but one rule - and chose to break it. From that, the first murder occurred within a single generation, as Abel was slain by his brother Cain. And from there, we've only gotten progressively worse. It stands to reason, then, that if God's goal is a perfect and sinless creation, He would sequester anyone corrupted by sin in a place of His own choosing. Scripture teaches us that a perfect and sinless creation is precisely God's goal, and the place He chose to sequester those who desire to continue in sin is hell. As to the eternal nature of the punishment, well, when does sin become acceptable? Hell is described as a place where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth". We often focus on the weeping part, because we're empathetic to the suffering of those in hell. However, "gnashing of teeth" is idiomatic of great anger from a Jewish perspective [see Acts 7:54]. Those in hell will continue being angry at God and refuse to repent because they see Him just as you do now - as unjust. But there are two problems with this outlook. The first one we've already covered, RE: the great personal cost He paid so they did not have to end up there. The second one is, He's God, Sovereign and omnipotent. Who could you possibly appeal to when facing such a being? There's no appellate court where your case can be reviewed for errors. He knows all and sees all and a being of that magnitude and supremacy cannot be wrong. If you're in hell, it is because you deserve to be. And here's the thing. We all do. Even me. I deserve hell. I'm not standing on the sidelines and pointing fingers at sinners. It's hell for me but for the intervention of Christ and my acceptance of His gracious offer of forgiveness of my sins. If someone refuses forgiveness, how is that His fault?
28:54 Also, non-Christian NDEs exist (including atheistic NDEs). Also, the whole 'staying in hell because you want to' nonsense reminds me of some conservatives saying 'homeless people in America choose to stay homeless'. I wonder how much overlap there is between these two beliefs?
Hey, if we can make up our own versions of Hell, I'll play! Hell is where there's an eternal power source, freethinkers and no being chained to the unending, back-breaking labour farms of God's Kingdom.
Y not finish wha 😈 tried to do and still overthrow gawd and heaven kingdom and make it yours az new lord? Like izn't using knowledge gawds kryptonite since he can't stand it and dats wha we were cursed for to begin of any creator or existence 🌳🫳🍎.
I was told that Hitler will get hell obviously and a kid will get hell if he slams the door and says F off he will go to hell , but if Hitler was born again before he died he will go to heaven because of God's mercy, same person told me the Jews killed in the holocaust will go to hell because they didn't accept Jesus as saviour, so they would be in the lake of fire burning next to their killers. One of many nails in the coffin of my dying faith .
Oh dang, I didn't think about that. Jews don't worship Jesus so even though Christianity is really just an offshoot cult of Judaism, I guess all Jews will go to hell according to the Christian lore. lol
Not sure if this would be enough substance for an entire video, and I think George Carlin touched on this at least for a one liner, but I've always wanted to see someone more intelligent than me break down the wishful thinking of heaven. At a funeral, you'll always hear "He's in a better place." No one ever says "Sucks that he's in hell now... let him be an example for us all."
I think i covered some of this in my video on heaven. If you have seen that one and still think theres more to milk id love for you to further explain. Thanks!
Point 8, I'm brought back to the revelation of complete surrender of morality. The giving up of your own sense of morality and refusal to judge God like we should.
Hope you all are not sick of my Mike Winger Reactions! Thanks for watching. Each of these 8 points get more interesting than the last.
I appreciate your covering Mike, my mother seems to be a fan of his yet I know little enough about him. I'm not inclined to spend my time watching his sermons. These videos help understand what she's taking in.
Glad to help then. Thanks for watching!
No! I am not sick of anything you discuss. I like when you "take down" these idiots (I'll say it because you are the gentleman). Go, SON OF HITCH!!!! Oooops! That has to be said very slowly! :))
Ha! Thanks for that
I’ll never get tired of seeing Mike Winger get owned. In some ways he’s one of the worst ones because of how much he sanitizes horrible ideas through good looking affability and production values.
When I was 6 or 7 I burned my hand and it was excruciating. My mother took the opportunity to say, "imagine if that feeling was all over your entire body? That's what hell is like FOREVER, it never stops and that's why you don't want to sin." That was absolutely terrifying to me. I never forgot that lesson. Fear is a very effective tool to make people comply.
Fuck that! I hate that so much
Personally, I regard that as child abuse, the supreme court views it as protected speech, much like money in politics. Somehow, folks still think the founding (slave owning) founders were geniuses.
That honestly is child abuse. The reason why I hate christianity with burning hell fire is that it TEACHES people to abuse their children mentally like this. I myself suffered similar emotional abuse throughout the years and I don't blame my parents because it's what they sincerely believe. But I hate the religious system that propagates this and if I find a genie in a bottle and it gives me just one wish, I would wish for nothing more than to see personally the destruction of this religion.
Gotta love the parents who say that then tack on how not behaving and not honoring your parents is a sin.
I hope you recovered from that.💪💪
It's amazing that if the average human were to be asked about certain things like torture, or debilitating diseases like cancer, the first thing they would say after hearing the effects of those things would be "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy". That sentiment alone, makes most humans more moral than a god who would torture someone for all time, for "sins" committed in the all too short span of a mere human lifetime.
Exactly. Well said
@TerraStory225MYA
I'd stop after the words "torture someone."
@@YY4Me133 Doing any harm to anybody I find horrific, even when the reason given is ' it will save millions of people ' I can't fathom why such a powerful being, who is supposed to be so loving and merciful, would do this to his creations.
@@55Quirll
I think it's pretty clear that the men who chose and shaped this god were not nice people, to put it mildly.
Perfect. You sumed that up beautifully
Don 't be a good person because you are afraid of eternal punishment, be a good person because treating others with kindness feels good and makes the world a better place!
*With billions of 'good' people doing 'good' deeds, Our world continues to be a dismal mess, and evil continues to rise unabated. Please explain that.*
@@lancemarchetti8673 simple, because not everyone is good, there are lots of bad people doing bad things. Hope that helps, have a nice day :D
@@arktype586 Then who or what decided that some humans would be 'bad'?
Sadly, that's not enough motivation for many.
"kindness feels good and makes the world a better place"---
I certainly agree with your sentiment, as would St. Catherine of Siena. It is also true, however, that being kind sometimes does not feel good and that the physical earth will eventually be engulfed by the sun despite our best efforts to be good. Feelings and practical utility are certainly good, but they cannot be our ultimate reason for being a good person. Deus caritas est.
see also:
Treece, Patricia "A Man for Others: Maximilian Kolbe the Saint of Auschwitz" HarperCollins, 1982
Peace be with you.
I met a guy who is now serving 10 years in federal prison over marijuana. The arbitrary nature of hell as punishment for acting as we were creared to be is much like the absurdity of the United States' justice system.
As bad as that is. Hell would make the american prison system look like heaven.
Makes me wonder about the correlation between hell apologetics and defending such a “justice” system.
@@Nocturnalux They are very correlated. Only a sick minded conservative bent on revenge and without any empathy would defend the American justice system which incarcerates a higher per captia than any nation on earth (and it's by a long shot).
People on the left like to blame "capitalism" but that's not really the root, imho, although greed pays a part for sure, but more a lack of empathy and a high-mindedness that disconnects people from reality (the prison system demonstrably makes things worse, not better).
A super irony is that one major effect on crime going down was Roe v Wade. So, yeah, if Christians want less crime, one of the answers is to give women body autonomy. Not without irony, this would carry over to drugs/prostitution, giving people body autonomy ends all kinds of nonsense crimes that only feed the beast.
Injustice system you mean.
@@michaelsbeverly I am not American and to this day find it appalling how prisoners cannot vote in the States. In my country, Portugal- hardly one of those borderline utopias in, say, Scandinavia- prisoners can vote. They vote ahead of time, along with the hospitalized.
I’m unsure how many prisoners avail themselves of this right, can’t seem to find much info but it is available. And not in a “technically you can vote but not really” kind of way. Everyone is automatically registered to vote when they turn 18 and can vote with the ID card that is issued to all citizens. Prisoners probably do not even need their ID given they are so easily identifiable, being in jail and all that.
No death penalty either (hasn’t been a thing since I think the 19th century), maximum term anyone can serve in 25 years (no accumulation either), and all crimes can, and do, have a statute of limitation, including murder and even genocide.
And the country is, once again, full of structural issues yet as far as its justice system goes, it is not half as demented as the States.
A kid born today in India, raised by Hindu parents, has friends who are mostly Hindu, lives in a nation that celebrates Hindu holidays and most of their family are Hindu who may grow up to be a wonderful human being who leads a fantastic life, is forever doomed to be tortured for eternity by the omnipotent God who sent them to be born a Hindu, KNOWING they would fail.
But John Smith, the serial killer, who has an absolute disregard for life and shows absolutely no remorse or mercy to his victims, can be “saved” at the end of his life and go to the eternal theme park. All of this, of course, God ALSO knew ahead of time.
Hell is nothing more than a stop gap, created to make sure the congregation falls in line with the beliefs of the church and never strays. Without hell or the devil, this school of thought would have died out in the bronze age.
Spot on!!
The best is when they accuse you of unbelief because you want to sin or you don’t want to face the consequences for your sins. As if getting out of jail free isn’t exactly what Christianity was designed to do.
@@frederickfairlieesq5316 Correct. If the only reason someone wanted to be Agnostic or Atheist is to sin, then it would be MASSIVELY advantageous for them, to REAMIN a Christian. Go to Church, pray with all of your heart, or say some Our Father’s in a row and BAM, right back square with the house again.
Jehovah's witnesses don't teach the hellfire doctrine...
JWDOTORG
@@ucanliv4ever I know everything I need to know about JW’s. Know all about your “new system” that you’re always insisting is JUST AROUND THE CORNER after Armageddon. I’m also very aware how often your members are called, “good for nothing slaves”. Appreciate your comment, I will NEVER be going to your website.
Exactly, I love how you said it; if the god of the Bible existed, he would be evil. He would not be worthy of worship. And this tautological, circular argument that we can trust God because he’s good and he’s good because he’s God just doesn’t cut it.
Precisely! Thanks for watching
Megatron is LORD
Divorce is not an active punishment inflicted on someone. Divorce is deciding to not deal with someone anymore. Hell is an active punishment because it requires an effort to inflict deliberate pain. If an ex husband imprisoned his cheating wife in a basement and tortured her for 20 years, then Mike's analogy would make sense. Mike's analogy doesn't work because ex-wife is not entitled to her ex-husbands time and effort. That is something you have to keep earning.
"this state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs"
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)
“Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you…” (John 5)
"whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation... and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness"
(Wisdom 17)
exactly. same thing with the prison analogy. we don’t throw people in prison and torture them for the rest of their lives (ideally anyway). we just separate them from society so they can’t hurt others. they still get food and clothes and shelter.
i’ve recently thought of that: why would there have to be such polar opposite places for people’s spirits to go? okay maybe god can’t be around sin, fine, but just….put them somewhere else? why does the “somewhere else” have to be permanent, unending torment? i’ve said it before, but it’s punitive for punitive’s sake. there’s no betterment or improvement occurring. just suffering with no goal.
@@andrewferg8737 hell is not just a separation from God but actual active torture. The whole separation argument was thought of later to excuse God
I get what you're saying but the divorce thing fails for me completely. Marriage (at least in Western culture) presumably is a free will choice between two consenting adults who have spent time together and have made an informed choice. Divorce is a consequence of a violation (extreme, repeated or not) or someone made a choice to do something different.
God isn't presenting people with the opportunity to make an informed choice. Asking questions and doubting him is a sin. Accept him based on what he says about himself, worship him (despite violence behavior) or he'll set you on fire. There's no free will choice. God is pretty much saying to commit to him or he'll torture you in hell for eternity. This isn't a relationship. I'm not cheating on anyone and I haven't been violent. The only person threatening violence is god.
@@TaeyxBlack "we just separate them"---
Separated from God?
God is existence in and of Himself.
God is Love.
"In departing from God, the ungodly have brought death on themselves through the unjust things they have said and done. They yearn for death as if it were a lover. They have gone into partnership with death, and they obtain what they have imagined"
(Wisdom 1)
It's rich when Mike says "We don't know" about the details of hell, yet he doesn't know that hell even exists but he's fine accepting that anyway.
Right! We dont know but heres 8 “facts” to make the mystery better. Lol
@@MindShift-Brandon "this state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs"
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)
“Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you…” (John 5)
"whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation... and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness"
(Wisdom 17)
@andrewferg8737 why are there so many different interpretations of hell within Christianity?
@@carlasmith9093 "why are there so many different interpretations of hell within Christianity?"---
It would be prudent to distinguish between speculation and doctrine (or dogma). The Church provides dogmatic teaching about hell which is very generalized and recognizes the limitations of our ability as humans to understand certain realities that are so far removed from our common experience.
Keep in mind that all other denominations came out from The Church at some point in history. Often these schisms occured because of speculation.
The Church, like a referee says, in effect "Here are the basics. You are free to question and speculate, but don't confuse your personal speculations with dogma".
So today, you have thousands of sects and each with their own speculations about hell, (and many other topics). The speculations themselves are not the problem, but rather the insistence that they are something more than speculations. Each sect sees their own highly detailed speculation as dogma, when real Church dogma is actually very generalized.
Heaven & Hell are simply an assertion that reality has consequences, but we cannot fully appreciate the entirety of those consequences. A three-year-old cannot understand the misery of being a thirty-year-old drug-addicted prostitute. But we know and we are certain that every thirty-year-old drug-addicted prostitute was a beautiful and innocent three-year-old at one point. Teaching about consequences is never meant to condem, but rather to save.
"the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9)
"when Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more" (John 8)
Peace be with you.
@@carlasmith9093it's the big book of multiple choice
A gradient of punishment doesn’t seem to make much sense in light of eternity. Any punishment will become unbearable when extended to infinity.
Yes!! So true
If the gradient approaches 0, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that we are already in the 13700000000th year of Hell, here on Earth. There is just enough suffering to hurt, but we are consistently getting better. It won't be long before Hell will dry out xD
This reminds me of the punishment where you have to hold out a pencil at arm's length for an extended time. After enough of a while, even a mere pencil feels like it weighs a ton because your arm gets too tired to hold that position for much longer.
Mike Winger can say the most horrible things in a calm and loving voice. Like i would imagine the devil would, if he would be real.
Ha. For sure
That's the art of the grift.
Has this dude ever been tested? Based on his statements, I would rather think that he is the devil himself. Does anyone have a crucifix?
For a good person to do terrible things, that takes religion. -Hitchens
@@MrCanis4 I'd actually be interested in a psych evaluation of him, or even an MRI scan - to test whether he's a psychopath. He certainly comes off as one in my opinion...
I can't believe Mike said that.
"Just trust it, even if you don't understand it."
But I'm glad he did because it focuses and highlights the central problems with his entire presentation.
He doesn't know exactly how hell works. He doesn't know exactly how we can avoid going there. He doesn't even know that hell exists.
But it is just, because it has to be.
You can't justify things you can't even define.
He could have made a more concise presentation, and just said "Just trust God, and don't think too hard about what any of this means".
I don't think the problems are all Mike's fault. I think he's working with concepts and claims that are extremely ill defined in the bible.
But I am not fond of his air of authority, on matters where he admits lack of knowledge.
absolutely
Even under the idea that humans could not completely understand that reasons of an infinite being, the very concept of *eternal* torture or suffering is fundamentally antithetical to our very notions of morality.
Very well said. Appreciate this comment a lot
yea the major problems we are having in the world is is becuase peaople "just belive in the science" yet the "Science" was skwed and paid for and effed up, just blindly follow what you are told, volitair. "for beelzabub has never seen a soilder quite like me, i do as i am told, this is why im evil" look at all those suffering now becuase they keep blindly beliving what the lairs microsoft tell them?
The stupidity of apologists like Mike Winger is mind boggling. I love how you expose insincere deluded people like Mike.
Thanks for being here for it
Yay
Sounds like you've got it all together and have arrived at the ultimate level of Truth that's available in the entire Universe🎉please tell us how you got there...
@@lancemarchetti8673by not believing in fictional Bronze Age mythologies
@@CheknoEternity Even a vague brushing over of archeological findings from the last 40 years confirms these so-called 'mythical' rulers, places and peoples.
I recommend you look into the work of the late Dr. Michael Heiser for an unbiased, scholarly critique of the ancient world. His book
'Unseen Realm' was a 15 year project with a wealth of footnotes for any sceptic's enjoyment.
Best of Luck. 👍
Thank you for these videos. I only found you recently, but they have made my deconstruction and spiritual departure from religion a much calmer and fulfilling experience. Thank you for validating the struggle and what it takes to get out.
My absolute pleasure! Appreciate you being here and glad its useful!
Why did you give up on Christianity?
@@20july1944why do you keep running away from discussions when we start to get close to an actual point?
@@20july1944There is a long and a short answer to this question. How much are you asking for?
@@20july1944Same reason I read the Bible which is barbaric and a programmed fabrication of human mentality. That's where my journey to spirituality begins.
He gives an excuse for Hell, and then just in case that excuse doesn't work for you, he has a backup excuse that contradicts the first one. And then if THAT excuse doesn't work, then he has a third excuse that contradicts the other two. But all those excuses don't work for you, he says just don't think about it. You'll understand it after you die.
I had an interesting interaction recently. A person replied to a comment I made on the video of an atheist channel. I think it was Paulogia but I could be wrong. It was basically repent or find out the hard way type nonsense. Basically a threat on behalf of god, wrapped in the language of grace and love. I basically told him I don’t need to repent because all my actions were predetermined by god. His response was god gave me free will so god is not responsible for my sins. I responded by telling him I have simply used my free Will to never sin, and asked him why he doesn’t just do the same thing. That way he won’t need to repent. He sensed the intellectual trap I was laying and responded that he would not engage with any question I asked him until I first proved God doesn’t exist. I explained burden of proof and the impossibility of proving a negative, and called him out for being a coward and dodging the point. If you can’t ever stop sinning which is what Mike seems to be suggesting, that even in hell we cannot stop sinning, there is no free will. There is apparently no way to ever stop or not sin. That a design flaw by the creator.
I like your way of handling the free will defense.
There’s a video from a TikTok apologist where he makes the case that we are not being punished for Adam’s sin because God knows we would all make the same choice if we were in Adam’s situation. In other words, sin is a necessary entailment of morally significant free will. He then immediately undercut his own position on free will by affirming that we are not free to not sin. 🤦♂️
Throw in the serpent being allowed to speak to Adam and Eve (with God’s blessing), and it is crystal clear that people in hell were put there by God.
@@frederickfairlieesq5316 the more you engage with these centuries old arguments the more the flaw become obvious.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Ezekiel 18:20-32
@@laurenferris2223why would you waste time quoting the bible to athiests??? Might as well quote Winnie the Pooh
Brandon your videos are such a pleasure to watch! I could listen you for hours!
Thank you very much for that!
At some point, I feel like we're arguing with children: their emotional teddy bear is under threat, so they will say literally anything to protect it. They could straight up say, "The Holocaust was a good thing because it was God exercising his divine right to punish the Jews" with a straight face.
Some of them do! Just not in earshot of normal people.
I’ve heard exactly that.
Even as a Christian I never liked mike winger , very cringey man. Now as an ex fundamentalist Christian , my mom still sends me his videos to try to bring me back.
I never get tired of you covering his videos!🙌🏼 love your content
Good to know. Thank you!
What is your evidence against Christianity? Maybe you'll convince me!
@@20july1944The evidence against Christianity is that all of the "evidence" FOR Christianity is bullshit that is only convincing for someone who's either been brainwashed to believe it already, or has the critical thinking skills of a wet sponge (or chooses to set aside those skills for emotional comfort).
Not believing absurd fairy tales with magic, monsters, wizards, dragons, giants, and heroes with superhuman powers is (or should be) the DEFAULT position, otherwise you should believe in every other religion that's ever existed, because all of them rely on the same bullshit "evidence."
@@20july1944 are you ever going to finish any of our previous conversations, or are you planning to keep jumping thread to thread starting up new ish?
If I was still a Christian, I would've 100% called Mike a false prophet.
A lot of what he says seems biblically wrong.
“Eight FACTS about hell”?????
You can’t state facts about something you can’t prove exists. Love your channel and love your appearance on The Line!
the facts are more like... 8 things that are said in the bible
As an atheist, I have zero worries about Hell, even if I am wrong and it exists. Since the only unforgivable sin is not believing in the Christian God, I guarantee I will start believing in it just as soon as I "wake up" there and then the "all forgiving" God will have no choice but to accept me into Heaven.
See, no worries, and I didn't even have to waste any Sunday mornings in church or give 10% of my money away.
Problem solved👍😊
God warns us in the scriptures that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of men, who suffered and died for our sins and rose again the third day according to the scriptures to be saved or we will perish (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, John 3:16). We have this life in which to trust in Christ and receive his gift of eternal life (see Romans 6:23). After death, a person no longer has the opportunity to be saved but will be in hell (see the rich man's experience in Luke 16:19-31).
Jesus warned, ...for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins (John 8:24b). It is not God's will that any person perish, but that all come to repentance (see 2 Peter 3:9).
@@sdlorah6450 No God doesn't. A man wrote that and the man also never stated God told that to them. It's called a doctrine.
@@sdlorah6450 If “we must believe on ….Jesus…….to be saved”, what about those who die as babies; THEY didn’t “believe on Jesus” , so according to you, THEY cannot be “saved”; is hell full of babies then?
Furthermore, what about those who lived before Jesus; what about those born into cultures where they never hear of Jesus; are they condemned simply because of the timing or geography of their birth!
As for “it is not god’s will that any should perish”, if your god is omniscient, he knew before he created us that the vast majority would “perish” , and just to make sure that happened, he maliciously created Lucifer.
I think it does say somewhere that you can still earn salvation after death so 🤷♀️ I don't really know why Christians worry so much anyway. If I'm wrong then I will have more information, and more importantly be able to give informed consent about where I spend my time.
There he goes saying the silent part out loud.
"God is wholly just and good. If he's punishing people this strongly, then people must be sinning really bad. That's the logical perspective, I think. It's _illogical_ to think 'well God must be wrong!'."
I cannot overstate how much of a red flag this is. This flag is dripping red, and that is NOT paint. This is the warning sign that something has gone HORRIBLY wrong in your mind.
The idea that "God is Good" is so fundamental, so basic, that it is taken as unchallengable, unassailable, axiomatic. It is the ground on which ALL of this person's beliefs have been built, same as a building rests on a concrete slab. Stable, level, safe. But this idea isn't at all stable. It isn't a given. It hasn't been shown to be true, and many, MANY things show it to be wrong.
But because the idea is treated this way in his mind, and the mind of many a believer, it wins all disagreements by default. In theory, God could walk up to Mike Winger, slap him across the face, break his arm, say "I did that for fun", and walk away, and Mike would STILL think his God was all-good. "It must be because I sinned. It makes perfect sense that God would enjoy punishing sin, it is the ultimate good deed, and good deeds SHOULD be fun."
There is always always ALWAYS some new excuse to be made. Some way you can bend and contort your thinking to keep it true. Which means the fact that you CAN do this DOES NOT PROVE YOU RIGHT. If you have to contort that hard for reality to be reality, something has gone horribly wrong.
So what are you supposed to do instead? Just callously rip out the foundation on which your entire reality rests?! That's insane, no one in their right mind would do that.
....Well I'm sorry, but yes, that is exactly what you must do. Ever hear ex-Christians tell the story of how they left the faith, feeling like they lost everything, even their very identity? They did it. They saw that the tower that was their reality was collapsing under its own weight, traced the problem back to the faulty foundation on which it rested, battled with themselves, sometimes for YEARS, until finally admitting that there was nothing left to do but topple the entire tower of "truth", right down to the twisted foundation, replace it with something that's actually sturdy, and start all over again. Does that suck? Yes. Is that horrible, painful, and the very last thing any human being wants to go through? Yes. But the longer you ignore it, the worse the wobble gets.
The tower will fall on its own some day. it will be so much easier to start now, when you have less invested in it. Ask yourself the tough questions _today._ Push on the tower. If it budges, it wasn't built properly to begin with. A foundation in ACTUAL truth, buildings made of beliefs that are factually correct, can never be pushed around or toppled with hard-hitting questions. It is _impossible._ You can't disprove reality using reality. How could you? But for some reason, you very much _can_ disprove God's Divine Word using reality.
I wonder why.
lots christains, give a satanic allaster-like smile and will snicker and say "need blood sacrafice to forgive sin"
Kinda like how god played with Job's and his family's lives all in order to freaking win a bet against the devil
ua-cam.com/video/BqcDXIx6CA8/v-deo.html this video describes it PERFECTLY!
@@jojobizarrelivingstone594 imagine if the first bet was the fruit of knowledge (since is pretty rare that God didn't noticed the weird snake
nuh uh
So wait. Let me get this straight.
The game, rigged from the start by the gamemaster, who knows the outcome before you ever play, is designed in such a way that when you go to hell (which the Abrahamic god knows you're going to go to no matter what you do in your life good or bad), that you're going to be stuck there because you continue to be tortured for eternity, for failing the rules of the game that you couldn't ever possibly win at in the first place. And that's supposed to be YOUR fault? Not the Abrahamic god's.
Is that what Mike Winger's entire argument is?
That's the entire argument, my friend. I keep comparing Yahweh to Frieza for a reason.
@@rodseller9936 I mean he's way worse than Frieza, at least you can escape Frieza in death.
@@bacaestrife3615 At least Frieza is honestly evil. At least Frieza up front with his intentions.
@@rodseller9936 Yes, because God claims to be good and to love everyone in some parts of the bible, while in other parts he claims to only love those whom he has chosen (or predestined) while not loving everyone else, while in other parts he doesn't act like he even loves his chosen people. God is not only not upfront with his intentions, but it doesn't seem as though God has even made up his mind regarding his intentions.
@leonticonderoga-h6i You lie. Yahweh does not that keep his word. His intentions are not up front. I have concluded that even if I obey I still perish.
Mike certainly seems to know a great deal about a subject for which there is no evidence.
What would you classify as "sufficient evidence"?
@@laurenferris2223 Don't worry. You don't have it. Trust me. You're too far brainwashed and indoctrinated to break free.
@@laurenferris2223I'd say anything besides the claim alone. He's trying to give details on an imaginary place.
@@BennyTwennyGrand Well, take your pick. There are geographical locations that support what the Bible states; Sodom and Gomorrah has been found along with Noah's Ark and the garden where Jesus was burried etc.
Then you have all the prophecies that either have come true or are coming true; Euphrates River drying, sin's on the rise, money is being fazed out, wars and rumours of wars, people hate Jesus, natural disasters.
There is evidence of a worldwide flood.
There's so much evidence that is not just false claims.... People REFUSE to open their eyes.
@@laurenferris2223state your sufficient evidence that god exists
Yes! Apologetics is the art of having your cake and eating it too (or, rather, trying to convince people you've managed to do that)
Thank you once again. The fear of hell can follow someone around for a long time after deconversion. Honestly, there are many reasons why I am an unbeliever but one of the main ones is that religion only added to my lack of self esteem and feeling bad, broken and unworthy. Once I let go of it, it has increased my self esteem so much and I am not someone who would deserve such a horrible place for being human, making mistakes or not believing.
I love the series finale of Netflix "Lucifer" in which Lucifer Morningstar realizes that his role in the cosmos is not necessarily a punisher. He could be a therapist as he helps lost souls regain their moral footing and escape hell. It's a brilliant parodic contrast between the therapeutic model of psychology and the morality of the Christian god.
While I do question how the show runs with the premise, I enjoy the premise itself. Even back when I was Christian, I could not help but notice the meaning of Lucifer's name and end up comparing it to the myth of Prometheus.
Funnily enough, you know what ensured that the premise of Lucifer not being a villain would always be interesting to me? A light fixture company... in San Antonio, Texas... that, according to their website, has been in business and servicing public places for over 40 years (so they would have been operating, assuming their name never changed, through the satanic panic). It might have also contributed to why one of my favorite pizza chains is Hell Pizza, which has a big ol' 666 plastered on their boxes.
I enjoyed that show and when I was a Christian, I loved that happy ending of Lucifer helping those lost souls in hell. Then again I wasn’t in that hell being a torture place doctrine.
This channel Is SO GOOD. You don't need to be struggling with your faith to enjoy this.
Love to hear. Thanks, man!
Your response videos are some of my favorites. It REALLY helps me to hear counter arguments to apologists. I hope you do more!! Thank you!
Appreciate that! No plans to stop anytime soon
Killing it. Congrats on breaking 1 million total views. Keep it up!
In response to saying people in hell will just want heaven and not Christ, I think it’s important to point out that many people become Christians simply to avoid Hell, not for the transformative power of Christ or whatever he said.
That is an absolutely wonderful point!
Perhaps, but if they fully engage with the faith and its tenets, that isn't the sole reason they persist as Christians.
It's wise to jump out of the way if you're walking on train tracks and see a train suddenly barreling down on you. The fear of death made you jump, and it was a rightful and wise fear in the moment. However, you don't stay off the tracks simply because of fear. Rather, because you affirm the value of your life and staying off the tracks prolongs all the good things you experience in your life - as you are not in danger of being killed by a suddenly appearing train.
It's much the same with faith in Christ. It may be that some come to Christ simply to avoid hell. But would that be a wrong motivation, given their belief that God A) exists, B) can and will sentence them there unless they repent and C) do not want to end up there?
I don't think so. I think it is entirely rational.
@a.j1031 Fear of hell is a terrible motivation because that motivation of fear eventually drives people towards trauma and resentment and is a means of god exploiting fear to minipulate the masses, such as kids having nightmares of religious traumatic experience of god sending them to fiery pit of doom thanks to some parents who tell thier kids. That's nor any indication of loving father but rather an abusive one. Just like what happened to Job. If god is supposed to be all about benevolence creates a system of negative reinforcement where fear of hell is the greatest motivation, then how can you rationally expect any human being to find that is a loving relationship? It all it becomes is just tip toeing around a singular path without offending you're father and rocking the boat without any new ideas.
Another great video. Perfect for my Monday morning drive. Thank you for being the voice and articulating the things that I cannot.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
I've gotta say, the analogy of the father with the ten kids seems really excellent.
Thanks. Anything that can help bring perspective
Very well said, Brandon. I remember how scared of death I was, growing up as a Catholic. Imagine a six year old boy having trouble sleeping because of how bad both heaven and hell sounded, and there was no escape. Even with the best intentions, Christian indoctrination can be so harmful to a very young person.
Interestingly, now that I am an atheist I am not afraid of death at all. I don't know what will happen or if anything happens at all after death, but I know it's almost certainly not what the Bible says.
"growing up as a Catholic"---
"there were they in great fear, where no fear was"
(Psalm 53)
"this state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs"
(Catechism of the Catholic Church)
“Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you…” (John 5)
"whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation... and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness"
(Wisdom 17)
Peace be with you.
Reminds me of the Prophet of Zod story about his childhood where he was extremely afraid of dying and going to hell before he was old enough to go to an outside pastor (so his own people wouldn't know about his doubts) and ask how to really really really get saved.
If that it's a total mind-f**k I don't know what is.
I was once, for a few years, in the AOG church so I said the sinner's pray about 3 x a week....haha....boy, I was saved again and again...
@@michaelsbeverly " I was saved" ---
Please clarify what that phrase meant to you at the time, or what your expectations were in expressing that phrase.
"In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1821)
@@andrewferg8737 lol.........
If I wasn't saved, either are you, unless you claim YOUR church is the only one that's saved and every other denomination is damned to hell......
*What do you claim is required for salvation?*
Give me your list and I'll confirm or deny whether I met YOUR standards....hahahaha...
If you believe ONLY Catholics are saved, fine, I was never saved, and I'm on the same ground as an athiest as half of Christians (who aren't really Christians, I guess, lol).
you see how stupid this game is?
_"In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved"_
Yet another proof that hope in God is as meaningless as hope that Santa will show up with presents and PROOF that prayer doesn't work.
If you don't know what will happen after death, how can you know it's not what the bible says?
Nice point by point breakdown by Brandon. 😂
Mike's incoherent, contradictory and logically faulty attempt at justifying the unjustifiable was painful to observe. 😢
Its painful and sad to see the state of what is very common amongst christian beliefs. Scared for the future. Thanks for your comments!
Woke up this morning ready for a takedown!!! Im obsessed with your channel!
Thats awesome to hear. Thank you!!
So are you an atheist?
Thanks for your intelligent comments. The Bible is a mess of contradictions written by people thousands of years ago. No wonder there are so many different denominations.
So much confusion and no agreement!
The Bible doesn't contradict itself. You just don't know how to decipher it. The bible was written by holy men under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It wasn't just a group of men sharing their ideas. GOD'S WORD IS DIVINE.
@@pam7500 that's what people told you or you investigated it?
@@pam7500yeah a book that’s supposed to save me from damnation should absolutely need “deciphering” god knows what could happen if misinterpreted smh
How can you sin in hell, people would be to busy screaming and crying in pain to even speak or think.
I didn't realized how much this book can halt critical thinking. The world needs critical thinkers
Right it makes no sense. Also the physics of an indestructible body doesn't make sense
Mercy and eternal torment cannot exist together... neither can fear and love. They are complete opposites!
ua-cam.com/video/BqcDXIx6CA8/v-deo.html yep havent seen anybody come up with a valid argument against this besides that cant proove God is love or fear but as for anything else none came up with anything legitmate.
Yes well done!
I completely disagree. If there was no punishment (in whatever form), there couldn't *be* any mercy. There would be nothing to be saved/pardonned from.
There would also be no justice, and, it seems to me that one of the reasons the world hates God is that "he let's evil abound." Yet, they also call him unjust *because* there might be this place where people *are* punished if they keep doing wrong unrepentantly.
@@elizabethryan2217 lts one thing to say that punishment is justified but its entirely different story when you say that infinite torture for finite crimes, regardles of the degree of severity, is justified. Infinite torture entirely contradicts or at very least seems counterintuitive to god's tradmark mercy or benevolence that he is often known for, especially when you factor the idea that you dont have to be a ruthless coldblooded person to sin and get on gods enemy hit list. You can be a loving non christian that may be different but still civil moral standard contrary to gods way but yet still get the same infinite torture as Hitler, so does that exactly add up to God being the ultimate embodiment of love or mercy compared to a mere lowly human who would say that he wouldnt wish that on his own worst enemy? So it seems rather perplexing.
@@evanurena8868 @evanurena8868 hi. Yes, I understand why people struggle with that. However, I keep being reminded that our standards as human beings for what classifies as righteousness/goodness/purity are so far below God's standards. I've been more and more conscious over recent years how unaware - and sadly, often unconcerned - we can be of the consequences of our own sin on other people (and ourselves.) We tend to shrug things of - sometimes with a bite of a lip or a guilty grin, if even that - and say "that's life 🤷♀️" or "it was only x/y/z" ..or "everyone does it" .. when we absolutely don’t have to and shouldn't. I think if we could really see the long- and short-term effects of our wrongs on other people, we should be dismayed. God gives us ample time to come to him for help to put that right and be the people he created us to be. If we don't, then vengeance for those we have wronged is punished. And if we haven't *accepted* Christ's payment for us on the cross (with his time in hell), then we have to pay it ourselves 😢
Edit: sorry, I'm not really sure if I answered your question properly. I think the nub of what I mean is that we don't realise how serious sin is. For whatever reason (i didn't set the scales): apparently *all* sin deserves death. (Whether that's eternal torture or not, I don't know.) I do think that if we could see more clearly the effects of our sin, we would understand and accept that better. But there it is. And if we don't accept the debt that was paid for us, we have to pay it ourselves. Personally, I don't have a particular issue believing that eternal torment is just punishment if someone is unconcerned about dealing with the eternal consequences of their actions in this life.
I subscribed to you on Paulogia's recommendation, and he didn't steer me wrong! Excellent content, eloquently presented. Looking forward to more.
Thats awesome to hear. Thanks so much for coming over!
How this Mike guy simply makes stuff up with a straight face is shocking. He just pulls things out of thin air
Brandon, it would be fantastic to have someone like a mic when you’re on your show or an actual debate between him. Great job again.
Thank you! Trent Horn in a couple weeks will be my first conversation with someone from the other side. Hopefully that will open some other doors.
I'm happy to see your channel is growing. You do a great job and deserve it.
Thank you!
I've been praying to Lucifer for this channel to grow 🎉❤and wow!... Look! Satan does answer prayer 😂
Your videos help me heal!! They validate and confirm my deconstruction process in the most profound LIFE giving way! I love knowing I get to turn on one of your videos and learn new, profound concepts that I can't believe I never recognized before! I've never supported a channel financially but I'm going to set up financial support asap.
Great format! It was fun to feel like we all watched the video together and reacted. Its almost painful to watch apologists repeat talking points I was previously convinced by. Thanks for covering these topics!
Listening to an ex-pastor talk about how much the punishment of hell doesn’t make sense is actually what led me to atheism. These religions just don’t make any sense.
I hear you, but neither does atheism imo.
Eternal burning torment would only be NECESSARY if two reasons were BOTH true: 1. The souls of all humans are immortal (i.e. all souls become conscious after conception and continue to exist into eternity future), and 2. The corrupting seed of sin that we receive from our parents grows progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Even a speck of sin is the seed of a future satanic being within.
No matter how kind and gentle a nonbeliever may seem to you at the moment, God sees the sin inside them growing.
Ephesians 4:22 (NASB) says, “That, in reference to your former way of life, you are to rid yourselves of the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit.”
2 Timothy 3:13 (NASB) says, “But evil people and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”
Galatians 5:9 (NASB) says, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.”
Colossians 1:21 (NLT) says, “This includes you (Gentiles before they became Christians) who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.”
Ephesians 2:12 (NASB) says, “Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”
For this reason, God knows that their immortal soul is on track to being another satanic-like being in the future. And since their soul exists forever, if they do not obtain salvation through Jesus, God must eternally separate them from Himself and those who will be in heaven. But He loves His enemies and has made a way out of our hopeless situation through the person of Jesus Christ if we accept Him before we die.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 (NLT), “And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.”
Look at the current behavior of Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage. They are the end products of complete corruption.
John 10:10a (NASB) says, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.”
How can anyone contain satanic evil in a group of lost immortal humans and angels? Do you remember what God said in Genesis about the abilities of humans?
God reveals something about humans in Genesis 11:6 (NLT), “‘Look!’ he said. ‘The people are united, and they all speak the same language. After this, nothing they set out to do will be impossible for them!’” Eternal pain will eternally contain the lost souls’ thoughts and attention. They will forever be in such torment that they can never unify to break forth and spread corruption again.
Bottom line - the sin (selfishness) in lost people is growing progressively, irreversibly, absolutely, and completely given enough time. Death does not stop the progression. Every lost person will end up completely corrupted like Satan and his demons driven by hate and rage so that all they want to do is “steal, kill and destroy.” Eternal separation and containment in torment are necessary.
I want to know what sins I’m likely to commit while writhing in agony in a lake of fire.
All that lust and pride apparently lol
If hell has freedom of choice for decisions and heaven does not... Is this a case of safe slavery vs dangerous freedom?
How about cursing God?
Thou shalt not take the name of thy god in vain 🤭
@@glistasnajter I expect to be screaming too much for that lol.
Yeah i would be cursing that douche nonstop @@glistasnajter
Thank you for sharing definitely a lot to think about
Always my pleasure!
"having your cake and eating it too" is a fantastic name for a book on Apologetics. Perfectly encapsulates my problem with the entire field.
I can’t believe he said if you’re still conscious you can still sin. Implying that people in heaven are unconscious because there is no sin or that you can still sin in heaven. And i’m sure that if you asked Mike whether you are a conscious being in heaven and that there is no sin in heaven he would then say yes to both. Make it make sense Brandon!!!
This video brought back some fear of hell for me. In the end, i have decided that i have little control over where i spend eternity. Whatever will be will be
You are a sinner, and your sin is the reason you will go to hell. However, Christ died to take the penalty for your sin. If you agree with God that you are a sinner, you're already halfway there. The only thing left is confess to Him, and place your faith in Christ so you'll be forgiven. The next step is to join a fellowship of believers, so you can share your struggles and be encouraged in the new way of life you've chosen. We're addicts to sin from birth. Going to church is like going to AA/NA meetings.
@@a.j1031Jesus didn’t die. He respawned
@@seanmower3926 LOL! That's actually funny. Blasphemous, but funny.
If we wouldn't want to sin in Heaven then why did Satan?
Right!
How's dare even a transformers war in heavenly kingdom perfect paradise?? Thought SIN iz kryptonite to gawd and can't be near it or devoid of dis SIN we're told bout.
On top of that could there be another rebellion that would cause billions of people to fall from heaven? They say we will maintain our free will in heaven but we won't want to sin. Like the guy above said why would Lucifer want to sin along with 1/3 of the angels to overthrow Gawd?
Exactly 😂 a being more righteous than us at the time still sinned and became arrogant 😂
Mark Twain: “Heaven for the comfort, Hell for the company.”
Lol
Twain didn't go to heaven, whatever else happened.
@@20july1944 Matthew 7:1
@@20july1944 how do you know? Did you hang out with Kat Kerr up there?
@@carlasmith9093Kat Kerr 🤣🤣
One can just imagine how a conversation between you a Mike would go... it would be interesting
Maybe someday! I think we are both pretty kind and respectful in conversation
The difficulty with Mike is evident in the conversations and debates he’s had in the past, where he conflates criticism with personal attacks. When one believes that an interpretation of a text comes from a conversation with God, there comes a blurring of God and self and the commandment of a deity and the personal opinion of the religious follower. I don’t think the merging of God and self is intended, but when there is no being outside of oneself to which one may point, then God and self becomes intertwined.
@@DHPersonal Yeah, the fundamentalist inability to understand that their personal, subjective interpretation of their scripture is indeed personal and subjective and not indicative of absolute truths handed down directly from God that should be obvious to everyone can make it very difficult to have an honest conversation.
To be fair, I think it is a very difficult thing for EVERYONE to realize the subjectivity of their beliefs on extremely complex topics. It just becomes significantly more problematic when that topic involves believing you have special access to the mind and will of God.
Fortunately I was never indoctrinated, but I enjoy your videos and I commend your cause, trying to ease people’s confusion and pain caused by the religion. You and kristi Burke are the best!
I appreciate that very much!
Hey Brandon, my name is Titus and both my parents are worship leaders at a church of god (pentecostal but less cultish) so I’ve been raised in the church and have been being forced to go every Wednesday, Sunday morning and Sunday night sense birth I’m 15 and I’ve been having doubts of christianity sense i was 11 i found your channel three months ago and i just wanted to say all the problems that i thought i saw but i didn’t want to believe because hell doesn’t sound like a very fun place(not to meatride but your video about overcoming the fear of hell helped me alot, i really just want to thank you) you pointed out in a clear way and ive been reading the scriptures in your videos and it is astounding to me that a priest/ believer can read any of it and justify it in any way at all so i just wanted to say thank you ive recently came out as agnostic to my parents (they didnt take it very well) and my step dad forced me to talk to my churches main pastor and he hardly get a word out and kept using “he owns us so he can do whatever he wants” which i find incredibly immoral and horrendous to think about but hard to argue with can you help? You dont have a if you dont want too and it didnt convince me in any way but i really just want some way to dismiss that if it comes up in further arguments because “thats horribly immoral” didn’t really work as you could imagine thanks for everything you do
Hey man. Thanks so much for the kind reply. Im so impressed with your courage and you are literally decades ahead of me. I wish i had a better rebuttal for you but that line of thinking is impossible to argue with. Theres no rationality. I would however suggest that if gods morality is so ultimate why doesnt even he follow it? A video like mine from last sunday on gods objective morality could give some ammo
@@MindShift-Brandon I was just watching that video before this video! It really sucks that you can use that “ he owns us and made us” line, but it objectively doesnt make sense if hes an all loving and forgiving god thank you for your videos are always informative and helpful keep doing what your doing man, peace ✌️
@@Eviserix I fear you're being led wrong by what you think is reason. It is not. Brandon is a man who hates God. You say that going to church has been part of your upbringing. I understand having questions, but can you honestly say that you hate God?
It helps to imagine Mike Winger talking with the same enthusiasm and sincerity about reconciling issues with the Silmarillion, or whether midichlorians were already foreshadowed in Episodes IV-VI...
Ha! Indeed that does
@leob3447 Hey sorry for that! And now that you mention it, maybe a few atrocities _do_ deserve eternal punishment... 🤔😅
I'm at Point #2 and Jesus Christ (pun intended), what a wild thing to say.
"Yeah you're being tortured forever but you can still be prideful and that's bad"
So stupid!
God punishes people for sinning by trapping them away from his grace, which causes them to sin more and justifies more punishmemt
Prideful sinner: I AM ON FIRE!!!!!💀💀💀💀
Sinner 2: Why must you take things literally!!!!
That's an abusive father logic.
"Can’t you see? I'm only punishing for your own good! How dare you scowl at me, you ungrateful brat?!"
Damn. That last one of his really was just "turn off your conscience"
If i didnt torture someone for eternity , i cant believe i deserve eternal torture
Simple
You have sinned against an eternal God… therefore you have an eternal penalty
@@chaseblock6358if that's true and most if us go there then would you agree solomon was right about life in ecclesiastes 4:3 ? Better are they who have never been? Did Solomon understand what you are saying is correct and reach this conclusion based on your premise?
@chaseblock6358 This kind of relates to the might makes right fallacy where an offense towards something more powerful equates the right for such a powerful something to dish out a harsher punishment, which is incorrect, because usually a punishement is given based on the severity of the public or society's well being, not towards the position of power itself. A person can commit a crime against the federal government but the feds will judge it relative to the severity of the nation or people's safety, not because of how the feds feel offended by it.
@chaseblock6358 if that's so, then this god deserves no faith of mine, let alone respect.
I never believed Hell existed until I dicovered that Mike Winger held an 11 hour video on “Women in Ministry” Series. Now imagine sitting through that; about as close to hell as it could get I would imagine.😏
I really appreciate the methodical approach you use to address these arguments. Its a good mix of appropriate indignation and measured response to ideas that are frankly disgusting.
Thank you kindly for that. Thats nice to hear
My faith took a serious hit the day I realised that people don’t respond to punishment, only correction, empathy, and understanding.
Punishment is one dimensional, reductive, and impermanent.
Not to mention that when I became a father, I quickly realised how shit god was at being one.
I came from a home that used corporal punishment, and until I met my wife, I thought that was okay to physically discipline any children we would have. Now, I would rather set fire to my own junk than raise a hand to a child.
spot on. Ive learned positive reinforcement training for my dog and it works for human as well. Coercion and positive punishment has severe fall-out. It made me hate my parents. That is one reason I hated church as a child. I hated the ultimatum of do this or else.
I don't quite think the point of hell is to generate a response. It is final judgment. What God desires your response to is the Gospel of Jesus Christ - the loving action He took on your behalf.
Fantastic video!!! Thank you so very much for your insightful videos! They are healing 🥺
Glad to hear it. Thanks so much for watching
Brother,, another awesome teaching. I love how you still show respect to Mike. I would love to see a debate between you and him. Love ya brother 👍🏼😁
Well-done response as always, Brandon. And while I really dislike Mike Winger & utterly despise his beliefs, the size of his following and the horrific views that he holds make him a good “target,” so to speak. They need to be addressed and shown to be the monstrous ideas they are.
Thanks so much. And agreed. I think its fair game. Good to hear i havent yet overdone it
@@MindShift-Brandon
Mike Winger's understanding or lack of understanding is irrelevant to the issue you are attempting to address here.
His willingness to say something like "it's okay to burn someone for being horny" is just demented.
My main concern above all else is how can people in heaven be happy if they have friends and unloved ones in hell?
It's heaven. It's where God is and you exist in His infinite pleasure. Is it possible that heaven can be more immediately meaningful to the creatures inhabiting it than the fate of the ones who aren't there to experience it? Is it possible that time blunts the trauma of remembering their fate?
Currently at the gym Brandon, and I love watching your videos, ever since the beginning. I'm working the muscles and the brains, and fortunately not doing mental gymnastics.
Ha. Awesome comment! Thanks for the support
im so amazed by your discussions.ive shared them.
Appreciate that. Thank you!
youre welcome@@MindShift-Brandon
Brandon, Thanks again for your videos. I wish I could support you via Patreon but I just can't do it right now, so I continue to support with likes and comments, my dude. Just an update on me, I am slowly moving closer to the "dark side" lol, but I do still fear hell and the possibility of being wrong. I've been doing a lot of research on the historicity and probability of the resurrection, and I am at a place where I am not convinced by either side. I go back and forth. Still holding on to faith, but not sure I should....idk. Things are very confusing. I am also scared to not believe for many reasons, but I do agree with much of what you are saying. IDK, man. But thanks again.
Tough spot,
My man. But im happy you’re still working snd looking into it all. Im hearing more of why you dont want to admit the truth then that you dont know what the truth is. That will fade eventually and at some point these beliefs will be as foreign and ridiculous as the greek myths. You dont lose any sleep over zeus. Yahwehs next lol. Thanks for the support!
33:05 "We must join him, Gandalf. We must join with Sauron... it would be wise, my friend."
Lol!
Thank you Mindshift for all you videos. I am now far from enslavement of faith and religion. All was replaced by knowledge and the desire to know truth and logical evidence. I hope you save more poor minds like me enslaved by god and religion.
With gratitude from Manila, Philippines.
Thank you so much for this encouragement!
You make so many great points and you are funny at the same time. Great stuff.
I appreciate that!
Also, great title for your book. You should definitely write it.
“Inspiring philosophy” has the best video on hell imo, even if most Christians don’t hold his view, it seems the most consistent with scripture.
I’d love to see you react to that.
Great work btw.
Although I am still a Christian, you challenge me to think, which I actually enjoy.
Appreciate that. I have seen it and was not as impressed lol. Thanks for the kindness though despite our differences
Holy, just, and good must be code for grotesque, narcissistic, and monster.
Im thinking so!
Hmmm...do you think when a judge sentences a criminal to prison, he's not entirely aware that the environment there will be brutal and torturous?
The argument (excuse) of “you stay in hell because you continue to sin for eternity is yet another example of why I believe God would make a great villain. Like you said, this is ETERNITY we are speaking, and that means eventually we would get bored of whatever we are (doing wrong) and want to stop, not to mention the eternal suffering would probably make us not even want to focus on said supposed sin.
But my point is, the fact that god assumes we are going to sin for all of eternity, so we stay in hell, just means that god gave up on these people.
I mean think about it, if god (an immortal all knowing, all living being, TRULY loved us, he would be with every single one of us in hell, talking to us, trying to help us, trying to work us through the process so we can be better people, like a kind of therapist. He’s just throwing us in the bin like we are forever tainted goods, that’s not something many parents would do, there are tons of parents that try their best to support their kids even when they do awful things, but it’s supposedly too hard for an almighty (all loving god?)
All I’m really saying is, why isn’t there a therapy room with relaxing music and coffee with a bunch of angels that sit sinners down and talk with them. It’s pretty monstrous that god would just throw people out and then assume they will stay that way.
He basically believes that we can’t change, and he isn’t helping us through it.
And like, even if these people are willing to sin, god should be helping us through it.
Gotta love how when your alive, god apparently has a plan, and is making it so things go the way he wants, (or something). But when your in hell he can’t do anything about it, he suddenly can’t intervene like how he apparently does in all the “good things”/miracles he does.
I imagine that the experience of hell would break the mind in such a way that you aren't really there anymore. I feel that the human mind would disasociate till you just aren't concious anymore.
At 7:14 Winger says - “If you’re still conscious, then you can still sin”. So we are unconscious in heaven? Sounds awesome.
The correct theology is the one that keeps and gets the most butts in seats to tithe. They will change to appease money
Yup! This has been shown time and time again
Thank you so much Brandon this was another wonderful great video and we encourage you to keep making these videos We can never get sick of your content You are helping a lot of us who are going through these discomforts based off of the fear that we were conditioned to follow through this belief system especially eternal punishment. I believe this eternal punishment concept takes away not only the human experience but even dying in peace, nobody will have that comfort of their loved ones passing away whether that's elderly without worrying about where their destination might be it's very stressful and it is stressful enough that we have to think about the inevitable which is death unless someday we find a way to live forever and stay youthful when technology grows sorry for the rant but I believe if we found a way to live forever and stay young forever this would definitely defeat religion sort of there will still be the fear of that being taken away but great video will love to hear more about that
Appreciate all that so very much. Thank you!
Mikes audience goes along with whatever he says without thinking about it very much. He is one of the guys who huddles together with those he is trying to control and make it a club that doesn't want the other kids to play with them. Eighth grade mentality at most.
Very compelling video.
Thank you!
Mike winger's arguments generally are summed up with "heart issue", which means nothing, but in essence it's "it's your fault deal with it"
Which I think is a good representation of apologetics
13:20 There is someone who escaped from Hell during the mid seventies... his name was Meatloaf, and he wrote a testimony about it, it's called "Bat out of Hell" - True story
The whole sinning in hell thing sounds so dumb. How am I going to keep sinning while I’m experiencing varying degrees of torture? Do they stop the torture and let me experience enough clarity to actively sin again??
One need only look at the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
"The rich man also died and was buried, and in hell he lifted up his eyes..."
He then goes on to have a meaningful conversation with Abraham while being tormented in flame. The story as told by Jesus seems to indicate that the torment in hell does not necessarily overwhelm one's ability to think and reason. The rich man is still sensate in hell, though tormented.
Point 8 is literally “just trust me bro.” What an absolute sham of an “apologist”
Quite ridiculous!
Another great video Brandon! You're killing it!
Thank you, sir!
i've always loved listening to & having what i like to call cozy union meeting speeches, & Brandon, i have 2 honestly & sincerely tell you that all, All of these mindshift podcasts of yours R just like very cozy, union meeting speeches 2 me so! which also means that they're all, all very therapeutic 4 me 2 listen 2 they all hellp me relax a whole lot more, and 2 sleep better at night! 2 all the other psychotherapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists i've seen throughout the course of my life, i say move over 2 them, & now usher U in as the, well, let's just put it this way by saying that with a cozy sounding, spiritually comforting podcast therapist like U, I'll never need 2 have or seek out any other kind of personal therapy hellp again in my life!! U saved me here with all these spiritually cozy, comforting so called by me union meeting speech podcasts of yours, my speciall brother, friend, & teacher so!! Amen 2 everything you've said in all of them so!! God 4Ever Bless U in all of your continuing podcast work reaching out 2 everybody the way you've been doing so thus far!! ❤❤❤❤😂😂😂😂😅😅😅😅😊😊😊😊
Thought experiment for Christians: if God had never sent Jesus as a way of getting out of hell, but instead just let every human who was ever born just end up in hell, and he just let this system go on and on, generation after generation after generation of everybody being born and then going to hell, would that be justice? Why or why not?
This is a great question
Divine command theory, whatever God does is just. "The clay doesn't get to tell the potter no'thig m'f-*cer!"
It would be justice, yes, because the holy nature of God demands that sin be punished. However, what we find from scripture is a God who is not only just, but loving. It is this quality of love that caused Him to furnish a plan in order to circumvent for us the just punishment we all deserve for having sinned. Furthermore, it is His magnanimity which made the currency of exchange for forgiveness something we all have and can trade in: belief.
Lying is wrong, and uncontrolled lust, hatred of persons for arbitrary reasons. We can all agree to that now from a basic moral standard. So, many of us are halfway to salvation because we know these things aren't best. To go the rest of the way we simply need to accept that God is the ground for these moral standards, and the one whose authority was flouted when we engaged in such things. Once we do and confess, He is willing to forgive and accept us as sons and daughters.
And as we place our belief in Christ, He applies the righteousness of Christ to us so that we no longer need fear eternal damnation.
@@a.j1031 “It would be justice, yes.” So in my hypothetical scenario, a person is born, by God’s will; finds themself to be a human being in the world; finds themself beset with a sin nature they did not ask for; finds themself in a world in which they can not help but sin. Then they are punished eternally because of this. Whether you believe in “original sin” or not, I think the fact that every single human that has ever lived has sinned, indicates it’s a no-win scenario. Then, this person is punished eternally. A vessel created for destruction, for the glory of God. And you find this to be a just scenario, even if hypothetically. Well to that all I can say is, I disagree. To me that seems the height of injustice.
@@MarkSheeres Yes, it is impossible for us to win in this scenario without external intervention. What your scenarios always seem to exclude is that God Himself stepped into spacetime as a real human being and went through great pains to make possible the redemption of those who without His direct aid could not help themselves - namely, all sinners.
It would be one thing if God sat on one side and watched as we all marched into hell with no remedy. That is not what you get with the God of the Bible. He is both aggrieved by the sin we commit and the provider of its cure, and that at great personal cost.
You cannot leave that out of the Gospel narrative. Further, I do find it to be just that sin should be punished. Let's not pretend sin is simply telling a white lie or stealing a long, lustful glance.
Among sinners you have rapists, murderers, child sex-traffickers, brutal despots, drug smugglers, slave traders - the list goes on. The question is, how did all of these sins come to be? Are the people who commit these types of sins special cases possessive of some depraved trait the greater majority of us do not share?
If sin is putting our own preferences over and above God's standards and boundaries then, yes, we've all sinned. Adam had but one rule - and chose to break it. From that, the first murder occurred within a single generation, as Abel was slain by his brother Cain. And from there, we've only gotten progressively worse.
It stands to reason, then, that if God's goal is a perfect and sinless creation, He would sequester anyone corrupted by sin in a place of His own choosing. Scripture teaches us that a perfect and sinless creation is precisely God's goal, and the place He chose to sequester those who desire to continue in sin is hell.
As to the eternal nature of the punishment, well, when does sin become acceptable? Hell is described as a place where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth". We often focus on the weeping part, because we're empathetic to the suffering of those in hell. However, "gnashing of teeth" is idiomatic of great anger from a Jewish perspective [see Acts 7:54].
Those in hell will continue being angry at God and refuse to repent because they see Him just as you do now - as unjust. But there are two problems with this outlook. The first one we've already covered, RE: the great personal cost He paid so they did not have to end up there. The second one is, He's God, Sovereign and omnipotent. Who could you possibly appeal to when facing such a being? There's no appellate court where your case can be reviewed for errors. He knows all and sees all and a being of that magnitude and supremacy cannot be wrong. If you're in hell, it is because you deserve to be.
And here's the thing. We all do. Even me. I deserve hell. I'm not standing on the sidelines and pointing fingers at sinners. It's hell for me but for the intervention of Christ and my acceptance of His gracious offer of forgiveness of my sins. If someone refuses forgiveness, how is that His fault?
28:54 Also, non-Christian NDEs exist (including atheistic NDEs).
Also, the whole 'staying in hell because you want to' nonsense reminds me of some conservatives saying 'homeless people in America choose to stay homeless'. I wonder how much overlap there is between these two beliefs?
BTW, anyone else think hell would make great anti-natalism fuel?
Hey, if we can make up our own versions of Hell, I'll play!
Hell is where there's an eternal power source, freethinkers and no being chained to the unending, back-breaking labour farms of God's Kingdom.
Y not finish wha 😈 tried to do and still overthrow gawd and heaven kingdom and make it yours az new lord? Like izn't using knowledge gawds kryptonite since he can't stand it and dats wha we were cursed for to begin of any creator or existence 🌳🫳🍎.
Omg I was just thinking of asking you to do this but I didn't want you to be all Mike Winger'd out. Let's do this! 🎉🎉🎉
I just can't comprehend eternal torture
Can you comprehend eternal bliss?
I was told that Hitler will get hell obviously and a kid will get hell if he slams the door and says F off he will go to hell , but if Hitler was born again before he died he will go to heaven because of God's mercy, same person told me the Jews killed in the holocaust will go to hell because they didn't accept Jesus as saviour, so they would be in the lake of fire burning next to their killers. One of many nails in the coffin of my dying faith .
Oh dang, I didn't think about that. Jews don't worship Jesus so even though Christianity is really just an offshoot cult of Judaism, I guess all Jews will go to hell according to the Christian lore. lol
Not sure if this would be enough substance for an entire video, and I think George Carlin touched on this at least for a one liner, but I've always wanted to see someone more intelligent than me break down the wishful thinking of heaven. At a funeral, you'll always hear "He's in a better place." No one ever says "Sucks that he's in hell now... let him be an example for us all."
I think i covered some of this in my video on heaven. If you have seen that one and still think theres more to milk id love for you to further explain. Thanks!
Hell is for gloating about other people's funerals at your radio show.
Praise to the UA-cam algorithm god!!
Because I don't want your channel to be sent to UA-cam Hell
Lol! Thank you!
@@MindShift-Brandon I think I have said this on your channel before, but to me heaven and hell are the carrot and stick in the con trick of religion
Point 8, I'm brought back to the revelation of complete surrender of morality. The giving up of your own sense of morality and refusal to judge God like we should.
man! if you ever do get to have a face to face conversation with Mike, I'd pay money to watch that.