In general any motorcycle dealer. I went today to a BMW and 5 people hanging there nobody bothered to greet me. One guy eating lunch in the corner shouted "how can I help you" while eating lunch and looking at his screen. No eye contact.
HarleyDavidson tried to turn Erik Buell invisible and erase the greatest legacy they owned over their egos being bruised for all of his contributions to improve on their engineering of an inferior design in the xl line. Then he stock Buells won the sportsbike championship first year with a 100% stock Rotax powered bike/s. Harley canceled them, then continued to use his upgrades to improve the xl line and even his ideas in the Milwaukee 8. They are elitest snobs. I love the bikes. But if you gotta be a retired CEO to afford one, who needs to ride at 75. I need to ride now. BTW, Buell was the only division of HD in the black fiscally when they were erased.
It sure seems like they are intentionally trying to destroy the company by not doing anything about the dealership problems. Perhaps HDMC is letting the dealerships destroy themselves because a different business model is in the works. Sure would be nice to find a trustworthy H.D. dealership.
A problem over the past couple of years is that many H.D. dealers are bought up by company's that own several auto dealers. These company's own several H.D. dealerships as well. So, if you don't like how you were treated at one dealer, the dealer 40 miles away is owned by the same company and has the same markup and prices.
How's that new Kawasaki Jerry. Funny how those bike prices aren't affected the same way and at the same, skyrocketing rate as Harley though, eh? LOL I believe you even called the Kawasaki Voyager one of the better touring bikes. It is still a great deal! Now if Kawasaki had the same marketed culture as Harley, perhaps this would be a different conversation. Maybe one day soon it will.
@@Joseph-wh5of same here on the east coast of florida... from central to south florida they are all owned by the same guy in miami ... terrible situation
I went into a Harley-Davidson dealer in San Jose California. MSRP on that motorcycle is around 20 grand the manager said after all the additional charges it would be around 28,000 I said forget it and walked out.
Yup, the one right off of 280. The prices there are a joke! Cool shop and a massive inventory but honestly it’s just good for looking at. I honestly believe they raise the prices like that because of all the high rollers that live in the area, they mark it up just like all of the home rents, etc
This is an all too common practice. Both the dealerships in the Portland area pull this crap, especially Volcano HD. When the dealership doesn't have a price tag on the bike, you can expect that they will try to find a way to gouge you for whatever they can get out of you.
I was a Harley employee in Kansas City. In 2013 the Mount Rushmore models first came out. The local dealership tried to charge me 4k over MSRP. I asked him if he knew where I worked and he said it didn't matter lol. I drove 75 miles west to Topeka KS where they sold me a bike at MSRP with no set up fees.
Setup/Prep fees are some of the biggest BS a dealer can pull. If dealers aren’t making enough from msrp, clothing and service department, they need to take that to take that up with the Motor Company and reevaluate their own management. Those fees are telling.
I live in Orange county. I bought 2 bikes from Huntington beach Harley. Next one will be from Laidlaws. Just because of What I've heard, read, and experienced.
First there were doc fees….then there were bullshit set up fees….then came the freight fees…..now surcharges and bullshit market adjustment fees. Harley dealers will suffer the same fate as ford and Chevy dealers. Tons of bikes they can’t sell. It’s disgusting that hd is still charging a surcharge. I’ve been riding and buy new since 2002. I’d rather put crazy money into my current bike than feed the greedy corporate machine that hd has become.
I worked at a Harley dealer for a minute. This was a dealer that "sold at MSRP", except they didn't. They just jacked on warranties and other shit you had to add on if you wanted a new bike, it's all a sham. The baseline was the sticker, but by the time you got to the dotted line you were far above that.
I bought a tourer last year. I went to three dealerships with my specification for the bike and extras to ask each for a quote for the complete bike on the road. I told them this was what I was doing and the lowest quote would get my service. I told them I would not be returning to try and get them to undercut each other - just give me the best price. I went with the dealership giving the best price and then when we were signing the contract they started adding extras - admin fee, parts fitting fee, registration fee etc. They wouldn't back down and nor would I so they returned my deposit and I went to the second dealer who delivered the bike as specified for the price agreed. I agree with you Matt, if a dealer doesn't play fair, don't use them.
The local dealerships in my area don’t put price tags on their bikes and are coy when you ask about them. I was looking at a street glide special and asked if the price was in the low 30’s and the salesman said high 30’s low 40’s. That works out to a 7 to 10k mark up, and the finance deals were awful as well. In the end I purchased a bmw r 18 b for under 20k out the door with an interest free loan to boot. They are definitely pricing themselves out of sales.
I brought my 2005 Road King into local dealer in Va. for repair. Cam chain tensioners failed. Spoke to the service dept, they said they could take care of it. Cost me $150.00 to have it towed, driver pushed the bike inside. Service manager wrote out ticket, do not start the bike. My mechanic friend had already diagnosed the problem, listened to it with a stethoscope, your tensioner are bad he told me. Told the service Manger don't operate the bike, it was even written on the repair order ny the manager. 7 days later they call me, an he says his top mechanic listened to my bike, an said I need a new long block, $9000.00 he said. Man it said on the invoice don't start the bike. Hell you could have done further damage I said. Take the cover off an send me pictures, we were trying to save you the $150.00 for the inspection. They wrote on the invoice, it needed a new motor, however it could be fixed. Well what is it ? does it need a new motor ? Or can it be fixed. Wound up having to have it towed to my friends house who repaired it. Bike had 18,000 miles on it twin cam 88. A Harley defect, they wouldn't take responsibility for. .y bike has had 20 tanks of gas run through the engine no issues. Harley Davidson, they don't want to work on older bikes is what their salesman told me. Well then why the he'll did they tell me to bring it in ? Guess I'll just have to take it to the local sport bike who will work on the bike. So I'm out $450.00 for the experiences. Yes Harley Dealers do rip off they're customers. I didnt name the dealership, but they lost my buisness. I'll order my parts online.
Huge red flag when a dealer won't give you a price. I called one for a listing I saw online. Immediately got the run around, come in, take it for a ride, let's value your trade, what's your E-mail, blah blah blah. I said "please, I'm only calling for a price, please tell me how much it is, I'm not interested in anything else at this time other than that." A bunch of stammering and BS later, I had to tell the sales guy on the other end of the line "lose my number, don't add me in your system, don't ever contact me again." Why would I want to do business with a place that can't even give a number? Imagine trying to order lunch and the place won't tell you how much your sandwich will be? It's absurd.
You can’t blame all dealers or sales people. Like Matt said if you’re not happy try another dealer. I called got a price over the phone and closed a deal in 10 min over the phone on a 22 Street Glide Special.
One of my peeves of my local dealership is when I'm browsing on their website, either new or used they don't show the price but instead the website says "call for price". Good thing there's two HD dealerships within 20 minutes from me.
I ended up buying from a dealer 2 hours away. It was a great experience and I will buy from them again. I won’t by from my “local dealers” based on the initial experience. I left and found a dealer that values my business and treats you with respect.
That's why I live in Mexico...Found an excellent guy down here in Rosarito, Baja that just sez: "How much do you think it was worth" (reverse psychology, but it works for me)!!
$1,000 charge for freight, when it's listed at $375. $1,000 charge for set-up when there is no actual set-up charge. Dealers are allowed a certain number of hours if needed to prep a new bike , they are then reimbursed in a parts credit. Any charge for a set-up fee is another rip off.
I hear you Matt, but the bottom line is that the typical guy just can't justify the price of a Harley along with his mortgage, car note, electric bill, and so on. Man, I'd LOVE a new Harley, but it'll never happen unless that lotto ticket comes in. Thanks for your honesty and ride safe.
Matt, I agree with you completely. I’m a retired teacher and coach from central Illinois so you know I’m not wealthy by any means. My dealer Walters Brothers in Peoria, Illinois has to make a profit to stay in business, but have always been extremely fair and provide great service. I’m called by name by every member of their staff and treated like a friend not just another customer. I think everyone has to decide what their passion is and find the right dealership for them. Price is important, but service and relationships is what’s important to me
Honestly I felt the same before. But if you want something in life you have to take a chance, get off your butt and work. I thought I'd never be able to afford one but went and started mowing yards as a side hustle. I don't have but about 7-8 yards to mow a week but 30-50 a yard depending on how big times 7-8 yards a week, than I can. So honestly if want to get one go for it. Start on a used one and maybe trade it off a year or so down the road. And ask any older person what they wish they did different. Most will say the regret not taking chances in life and doing stuff. I would rather regret doing something and trying than regret not even trying at all. You live once, live everyday like it's your last and enjoy things when they come to you. Safe travels my friend and if you ever get one keep the wheels down and see you on the road.
Eric-combined my wife and i made over 200k last year. NO debt except for a 1500 mortgage. we are VERY lucky and worked hard to get there. There is still NO WAY I'd pay full msrp + freight + a FUCKING surcharge for anything that HD makes. I LOVE harley and always have but enough is enough. get ready because the next thing is Harleys made in CHINA...They already have a Chinese made bike for their riding schools. it's disgusting.
Hey Matt, you’re spot on with all your comments! Walked out of a dealer in central Florida (my dealer, Stormy Hill HD closed so had to go somewhere else) that had a $2,500 fee in tiny print. They chased me out the door and will never step foot in that dealer again. Found another dealer that was super nice to deal with and no BS fees. Plenty of good dealers around the country. Really wish you were in Florida!! But, when I’m in SoCal I’ll stop in and buy a t-shirt.
Good discussion Matt. I’m a 35 year HD guy. For almost all that time I have been a customer and friend of Lyndon Abel. Followed him through at least three dealerships. For several years now he has been general manager at AllAmerican Harley Davidson in southern Maryland. These guys are straight up, honest, professional, knowledgeable, and always make you feel at home. When I trade in my old bike for a new road king a couple of years ago I got a great deal with no run around. If any of your readers are in the Washington DC area, go see Lyndon. These guys what do you right.
I have the answer for those folks who want to own a Harley but find it too expensive. Buy used! My wife and I love to ride and in the last two years, I have bought and sold 3 Harleys from 3 to 5 years old. The first was my touring bike, the next was my wife's starter bike and most recently she also got a touring bike. All 3 of these bikes combined cost me 15 to 20 thousand dollars less than one brand-new Harley! The answer is to know what you want, look for it, and be patient. The last tip is never to buy a bike at a dealership new or used if you're trying to get the best deal.
I agree, used bikes are great value. Most owners really look after their Harley and most owners do very few miles. I have great deals on low mileage used bikes.
I recently went to my local dealer and made an honest and straightforward attempt to buy a new RGS and ultimately found they priced it exactly $4k over MSRP. (This is 30 min in before they would actually give me a price, and asked for a credit check first) Nope. I will buy used or elsewhere.
Exactly! I live in the northeast and can't really ride all year long. What gets me is that my low mileage pristine bike is worth nothing on trade but their new bike is what it is. Good for them I guess but they won't be selling me a new one and I'll just keep what I have for now.
I went to see a new one and it would top 30k out of the door. I paid 21k on a pre-owned, brand new not even 5k miles, with a lot of accessories like pipes, pegs, back rest at the same dealer. I really wanted a new one and was not seriously considering the pre-owned, until I put the figures on paper and saw that It would cost me almost 50% more, and I would spend 3k on the accessories that I would end up putting on anyways.
Good Day: Matt, The biggest thing that gits me is the price of the freight? Especially when a dealership receives more than two bikes. From York PA. To a dealer is $850.00. When I can ship a bike for $246.00. Even with gas prices or up, one trailer can delivery 20 motorcycles, Where's the 17,000.00 on freight going...Cin-Cin and Salute. Have a bless day....
Hey Matt, I bought a 2022 FXLRST when they first dropped last year. I pre-ordered with my dealer and worked everything out with them before the bike even showed up. They honored MSRP, along with the additional H-D charges, so I ended up paying the (at that time) $600 surcharge. I also ended up with the $1,000 setup fee. I haggled with them a bit on that point, as I have done with all my other bikes, but the fact of the matter is that the bike was so in-demand that they were completely unwilling to budge. If I wasn't willing to pay the setup fee, there were 6 other people in line behind me that were. All in all, I didn't blame my dealer for their stance on that, based on the demand, and I was happy with the overall process of buying that motorcycle. This also wasn't the first bike I had purchased from them. The issue I have is more with H-D-their pricing, surcharges, etc. While we all can understand the supply chain issues that went on during the pandemic, I also think manufacturers used that excuse to their advantage. It was a convenient way for them to simply make more money. I'm not expert on H-D's overhead, but I have a hard time believing the company would go into the red without the ridiculous surcharges they're still implementing today. Now that all that extra cash flow is there, it seems as though they're having a hard time giving it up. I believe the surcharges we've seen are nothing but corporate greed. You hit the nail on the head, though. People look at H-D as a "rich man's brand." We've normalized the $30K motorcycle. Just so I can remind H-D: people can legally start riding at 16. There aren't many 16 year olds I know willing to shell out $30k, over even $15k+ for that matter on their first bike. H-D have effectively priced themselves out of the new generation of rider. Sure, there's a used market-but when you can buy a brand new beginner-friendly Honda for $5K, is there even a decision to be made? H-D is banking all of their new sales on an older generation of rider, who also happen to have the money to shell out. They haven't done anything to capture the new generation, especially since the majority of the new generation can't even get out of mom's house and afford a $15k car, let alone a motorcycle.
I started at my local dealership and was disgusted by how I was treated by the sales team. So I traveled 90 miles to another dealership who sold me my 2023 Road Glide Limited at MSRP with no additional fees and did not play games. I tell anyone who asks about my experience. There are lots of dealerships out there 90 miles is nothing. I enjoyed the ride and my buying experience. I agree with you Matt. Do not give your business to someone who treats you poorly.
When our local dealer adds a markup of say $2,500 over msrp our first move is to offer $2,500 under msrp then discount every other thing possible. What I’m saying is a mark up pisses the customer off and instantly turns it into we could care less negotiation.
Yes MSRP has gone up, but many dealers are marking them way up. A semi-local dealer quoted me 35k on a stock 2022 Midnight Crimson Road King Special . The main problem is the Dealers.
Crazy, I paid 21k on a pre-owned Road Glide Standard , brand new not even 5k miles, with a lot of accessories like pipes, pegs, back rest. Imagine 35k plus taxes, it's almost twice!
Profit margins on a Harley even when sold at MSRP are higher than the margin on most new cars. If people had any idea how much dealers made on their Harley vs. their car they'd be sick. Yet, most people expect some massive discount on cars and think they got a great deal on their Harley by paying MSRP or even a little less. Average $35,000 new car might have a $1000-1500 spread from invoice to MSRP - that $35k touring bike you just bought is usually $5-7k. You don't have to pay over MSRP on a Harley to get raked.
I don’t think it’s dealers as much as it’s the brand itself , waaayyyyyyy overpriced !!!! Blue collar can’t even come close to affording them now. Pricing everyone out is going to make it collapse. The dealers just follow suit.
I bought a Harley yesterday. The sales people were nice enough, but they might as well be McDonald’s cashiers. No ability to negotiate. You take what they have at the price listed, or you walk. If you want a slightly lower interest rate, you have to buy an extended warranty. I noticed the change in interest rate when reviewing the contract (not explained prior to asking me to sign). When I mentioned it to the sales guy, he just shrugged. Not a very impressive experience.
No price tags at the Adamec HD’s here in Jacksonville, FL. That’s a BIG redflag and a shift vs 2021 when I bought my Road King. I get the “feast/famine” bit and it IS driven by supply/demand. Great video Matt- thanks for your continued transparency- very topical.
I’ve never felt ripped off by a dealership on the price of a new bike. I’ve only been ripped off on the valuation on trade ins. On another topic, I feel bad for dealers in California having to deal with all the ridiculous regulations.
trade-in is always the absolute lowest, cars or bikes... its the cheapest way dealers get new bikes, even less than auction prices usually. You do a trade in knowing you are losing a lot of money because you want to just get rid of it fast without having to do any extra work selling it yourself. Its paying a lot for a convenience. A lot of people do it because its easy... dealing with people selling directly to someone yourself can be a nightmare, or a daunting task a lot of people don't want to mess with.
Just learned that a friend of mine bought a Harley Trike. The took his loaded ultra glide for payoff 11,000 and took 4000 off the Trike. 2017 with just over 8000 miles, paid over 29000 for it, his payments are over 700 with a credit score of 811, 11 % interest and will pay back over 51000. How can an average Joe afford to have a bike from HD. I'm through with ever wanting one and will never own one. Sad 😥
I'd say not all dealerships are like yours. Almost anywhere I went to buy a bike, weather it be Honda, Kawasaki or Harley...there was a big mark up. I think because Harleys are premium products to begin with, they're expensive and any mark up puts them out of reach to any potential new Harley riders.
I totally agree with the rant about buying from a dealership that gives you a hard time and high prices. Don't give them your business. You certainly don't have to. I've bought two Harleys from a dealership in another state 2.5 hours away because the local ones suck, treat the customer like an idiot and have high prices. Why would I give them business? In the end, I am willing to spend more time and money to get service if that service is quality. I bought a new '21 Lowrider S a year, year and a half ago from the dealership 2.5 hours away, opting to go there instead of my local dealer. It was right before the new model year was going to start arriving at dealers. I got them to do a stage 2 to the bike at the time of purchase with some other part installs. The service was very good and the whole dealership experience was very upstanding. They even delivered the bike to my home when all the engine work was completed. Can't really beat that and to me, that is worth it.
My local HD dealer had a $3k "availability fee" on a 2022 but was throwing $2500 in accessories credit. This was 2 days ago on a Pan America military green. I would never pay a markup at a dealer. Setup fees are a joke too. They charge $895. That's about 10 hours at shop rate. Ridiculous. Freight on my new Wing was half what HD charges and it was shipped across the Pacific and then across the US. The factory surcharge is just a scam and I never see it going away at HD. Honda surcharge was like $300 and the aluminum Honda uses is much more costly than the steel HD uses. This year ended my 20 year run of HD.
I have no complaints on the softtail suspension. But the very first thing was getting those rears done on my touring bike. They were garbage. I played with adjustment across the entire range of adjustment. The owners manual recommendations were worthless.
Harley could learn a lot from the suspension you see on metric bikes. A different color and a few other things are all Harley offers in their new bikes.
Why are people so upset by somebody asking for more for something. We ALL do it. We don't sell at a loss, or less than we want. All prices have gone up. You can afford a bike, you can buy a used one, or a base model. You may not be able to afford the one you want. I would have slapped myself 7 years ago when I started riding if I thought buying a 30K bike...I've owned 2 new and 1 used in that timeline.
I went the used route because of the markups and supply demand issues. Since 2019, the Ultra limited really haven't changed. so a slightly used FLHTK was purchased. No MRSP. freight, prep, or "market value" up charges were paid.
I live in northeast Florida and the dealers here have an average markup above MSRP of $7000 to $12000 dollars. They have effectively marked out the majority of longtime customers. Then when you turn around to trade the bike in they base the value of trade off MSRP not the increased price you bought it for.
Asked my local dealer about installing Ohlins fork suspension in my 2021 Road Glide. They wanted 5, yes FIVE hours labor at $120 an hour. No way. I just got back from Daytona where at the Ohlins booth had it installed for free. I timed him, 1 hour and 43 minutes. I look for independents now or do it myself if I feel comfortable, unless it’s warranty work. They’ve lost me as a service customer.
I walked into a Harley dealership looked at the huge price markups, and quickly left. Drove less than fifty miles to another Harley dealership and purchased a bike. LOL
Makes perfect sense what you are saying. If you aren't happy with the price or the service, don't buy it. Shop around. I've bought two new Harleys from 2 different dealerships here in Queensland Australia in the past 5 years. The first was a MY18 Breakout which had a stage 1 Performance kit. I had a 5 minute discussion on the telephone with the salesman a few days after I test rode the demo model, we settled on a price and I bought it. The second bike I bought was from a different dealership about a few hours from Brisbane. I bought the bike after watching the Master tech from the dealership building bikes on his UA-cam channel. I contacted him, told him what I wanted on the new Lowrider S and asked for a quote. They gave me an all inclusive price including the new bike, all the fruit I wanted on it, the labour and dyno test. We haggled for a few minutes and settled on a price. I would have liked to get both bikes a bit less expensive but sometimes in life if you want what you want when you want it you have to concede a little bit. Happy with both bikes and have never once felt ripped off.
Love your honesty Matt. It is true that when you are loyal to a dealership they are loyal to you. I have experienced it myself. Thanks for explaining the dealership mark up. It makes sense.
I was loyal to my dealship & thay were disloyal to me & shit on me. Stole parts off my bike. Still to this day have felled to correct it or even do anything. They are no longer in business.
I have been loyal to my local dealership since 1968. They have gone downhill since the new owner bought the place. At first it was great, and I bought three touring bikes from the new owner in 5 years. Now they have finally lost my business. I will never spend another penny in the dealership again. Loyalty is only one sided at this dealer. If I buy another bike, I will travel a long distance for the right deal.
@@emeliaalfaro No problem, I'm not accustomed to having chats on UA-cam. I will be riding both my bicycle and my motorbike today, hope you have a great day as well.
Thanks for in the insight Matt. The dealer I bought my Pan America from only changers MSRP, taxes and tags (On the East Coast). I try to thank them with my wallet. I attend their events. Spend $$ in the store and pay for service. Been riding for 30 years. 1st Harley. Loving it! I think if dealerships are upfront with fees, post them on the bike, they will get less complaints.
@@jaym8027 Eisenhauer's in Chesapeake City Maryland. I believe they have two other locations, I only know the one in York PA. I'm guessing its the same deal.
Thank you so much Matt for ALL that you do for the motorcycle community, as a whole. I appreciate your honesty on these sort of topics and I don't think you are wrong at all. I live in the San Diego area and would have gladly made the trip to your dealership to buy a Road King Special since the Coronado Harley Dealership was trying to convince me that the only way they could sell me a bike was to accept a 24% APR. I ended up going to a local Indian dealership instead, falling head over heels for a different bike and was sold the Springfield Dark Horse you see in my profile at MSRP and at 7% APR.
LOL - His reality is hardly reflective of many owners. Even you, while kissing his butt has admitted that you felt you were being taken. This is hilarious commentary
My local dealer throws bolts into the breather or give us our bikes back after servicing without putting oil back in. Once i got my bike back with damaged folk seals, they were doing wheelies on my bike. They also scam us out of warranty too. After owning 12 new Harleys since 2013 we no longer buy Harleys. My local dealers are charging $55,000 to $80,000 for their bikes :) we now only buy Ducati and other super bikes.
Around my area dealers ask what payment you're looking for, which is a red flag to me. I'm not shopping for a payment, I want an out the door price, so they start high to feel you out and see how gullible you are. Eventually they'll put you on the spot and say make an offer. Then they write it up to go present it to their manager and want you to sign it so they can go ding your credit to check it before you even know if they're going to honor your offer. That's where I draw the line, I won't sign till I know the price and they sign off on it. That process is bass-ackwards. It's like playing poker when you fold and never find out what the best price is. They'll do the whole song and dance with their manager, then come back with a price thousands of dollars higher than your offer after you've taken a hit on your credit, and the deal never gets done. It doesn't cost them anything to negotiate a deal before hitting your credit report.
Had that happen to me at a dealership, they told me they would run a "soft check" that wouldn't affect my credit just so they could go over some numbers with me. Didn't I feel like an idiot when my credit dinged me for getting a hard pull from the dealership lol. I'm happy I didn't buy a bike from them that day, and I'll never be going to that dealer ever again
I was working in sales once and had a kid that came in for an 883. Young, maybe 20 years old, had a little money to put down. I showed him a bike, he fell in love, I gave him realistic numbers on what cost would be, he said he could swing it, I told him I could get him on it, he was really excited, we sat down. Management came over and quoted him almost 2x per month what it should've been without a credit pull. The kid looked shocked and like he wanted to cry. I told him to give me a minute, went up to the manager, and said "the hell was that?" I was told "well that's what it's going to cost him", which was absolute bullshit. I know what it costs to finance 10k, even with an absurd interest rate they weren't close. I said "the kid would've signed right there if you had given him something EVEN CLOSE to the ballpark, and you just screwed us both." Management replied "get him to stick around, we'll quote him something better in a minute." By the time I got back to the desk the kid had already gotten a hard no from his girlfriend and they were halfway out the door. Suffice to say I didn't last long at that place.
The whole shell game with the out the door price is what I have a problem with. Just show the price up front instead of acting like a sleazy vulture. It really leaves you feeling like they don't have your best interest in mind and don't care if you ever come back. Not a good look for the dealership.
You nailed it Matt. If a dealer puts you through hell...walk away and find a dealer that gives you the best deal up front. Walked out of a central Cali dealer that wanted to charge me 30k for a bare bones Pan Am, found a dealer in NorCal that sold me a '23 PAS ,delivered to my doorstep, with full luggage ,ARH, laced wheels and the first service thrown in for 25 OTD. Even called you guys and was prepared to make the drive but Yuba City HD came through as stand up guys just like your dealership. Great take on the current situation !
My local H-D dealer is light on the markups, they have the usual setup/doc fees, but there’s a $1,000 “Dealer available fee” I think is ridiculous. The sales staff there are awesome though, so I’m sure it won’t be hard to negotiate that fee down or out. Great video Matt!
I love my local dealership ordered my 22 low rider s with them and they took $1000 off msrp only fee they had that wasn’t on the Harley site was $200 or so prep fee
My local dealer has $7k marked up over MSRP for a Lowrider ST. Add up all their other expenses on top of that, crazy BS happening there. Matt is a stand up guy. I've bought more new HD's than most riders, and I'm having a tough time thinking about ever buying another new one.
Funny, what you say makes perfect sense, but hasn't been my experience. The better places that put price tags on the bikes, and the best places that don't add a bunch of extra fees to said tags seem to move the lowest volume. The snakes that hide the price, blow them up when they sit you down, and offer nothing on trades sell tons more bikes. I don't get it, but apparently there's more to sales than honesty.
Hey Matt, I think you are spot on with all the content. My first motorcycle purchase was with my local dealership. I live in Mission Viejo, CA so there are two local dealerships in my area. It was a bad experience going to my local dealership. (real bad) I looked around and discovered Laidlaws in Baldwin Park, CA (your family owned dealership) I purchased 5 motorcycles between 2021 and 2022 from your dealership. I agree with you, I never go back to any place that I feel is not fair with pricing or the way I was treated. Even though your dealership is more than 100 miles round trip. I am willing to give my business to the Company or Store that has fair pricing and treats there customers with respect. I always have a good time at your dealership. Also, yes everything has increased in price so I do not blame the motor company for raising prices. It's going to be a while before I purchase another motorcycle because of the hi cost of living. I will still continue to have my motorcycles serviced at your dealership because I can trust your dealership. Thank you Matt.
The problem is, is they are not just raising their prices but lowering their quality. I purchased a 2020 Softail and 3 years later almost all of the Chrome or aluminum is pitting And it's never even been in the rain, it's kept under cover it doesn't ever sit in the sun, it's been very well taken care of and yet it looks like it's 20 years old. Higher prices for lower quality is a bad thing. I will not buy another Harley and that makes me sad.
Dealerships don't print the Monroney sticker, the manufacturers do that. In order for there to be a deal made, both parties have to agree with the sale price. Dealerships are the ones that may have a "market adjustment addendum", but it is still up to the customer to agree to buy the bike/car/product for that price, instead of walking away.
People overall have had a very long cycle of low inflation and near zero interest rates. The additional costs are on every product purchased today. Vehicles just seem to exaggerate the additional costs due to it being a larger purchase. 15 % increase on $10 is a much smaller number while 15% on a $30k motorcycle or $70k truck is a much more noticeable dollar amount.
I bought from a dealer who had a dealership mark up. How I got my money back out of the mark up was negotiating incentives that benefited me. I was able to get a $300 Motorcycle rider class, a helmet, luggage rack, bumper, K service, and etc. The point here is if a dealer is marking up a bike, then the question you should be asking, “Give me a reason to buy from you.” If they are not willing to negotiate, then take your business elsewhere.
This was the most honest up-front explanation I've read about the post covid price increases! Initial increase/surcharge because of increased costs. 3 years later surcharges have increased. The fewer bikes they sell the more they need to make on each one. That extra money and time are no longer pumped into the economy. So if sales keep going down due to unafordability they will raise prices even more. One day there will be a 10% surcharge for the equivalent of 'General BS' or 'Because We Can'. That's when it will be over for HD. Great episode.
I think the high interest rates, coupled with the insane surcharges will result in inventory piling up this year. Yes, everything’s more expensive but these platforms are now six and seven years old. Desirability is low, Compared to previous years, 2022s are still available at many dealerships, and prices are high. I don’t think the surcharge is ever going away. The dealers don’t get a piece of the surcharge so in all likelihood it’s here to stay. It’s the anniversary year curse lol. If they announce next gen road glides and street glides at the celebration, sales will crater on this model year. That’s my prediction.
You'll get a "high" interest rate regardless of the state of the economy, or your credit score. Motorcycles are recreational vehicles and you know and will have a higher rate as a result. I tell people who ask me about buying Harleys, or any other brand for that matter to ensure that they're capable of paying half the value of the motorcycle after trade. If they can do that, they can pay it off quicker and that should be the goal. It's the interest that kills people slowly and they don't even know it. The dealers thrive off of getting people to finance through Eagle Mark, it's how they get more bikes on the floor. They don't like it when you brake out a check book and get ready to buy the bike outright.
You're already right. Local dealerships here have ordered based on covid years when they couldn't get bikes fast enough. Now you can barely walk through the door there's ao many. Like nope, I'm just here to pick up some parts for my 23 year old dyna lol.
I think your exactly right. I was planning on buying a bike this year. After the online “reveal” of the models and paint schemes, I completely lost all interest. I’m not playing inflation prices on a bike I don’t absolutely love. I was expecting more from a anniversary year. I did exactly what Matt mentioned. I didn’t buy anything from the only dealers in my area. I’ll wait another year or buy from the competition next model year.
@@Littlekoz I think the pricing is going to turn a lot of people off. That being said, Harley is already offering financing specials which is essentially a small price cut. If sales continue to lag, I expect more aggressive incentives in June if they plan to announce the two new bikes in July. I’m kinda excited for the VVT push rod engine. The Patent was first filed in 2020 and it’s kinda exciting that it’s finally coming to market. I think it was a bad move to bump the prices the way they did. Its gonna make it pretty hard to tack another big premium for the vvt bikes unless the plan is the vvt will be cvo only for the first couple of years. I’m pretty sure the next phase of euro emissions doesn’t go into effect until 2025 so they do have some time.
In Australia if you mod your bike regardless of who installed it, the law says your bike is null and void. This is how i lost all my court battles over warranty. I spent over $70,000 installing genuine crate engines and other mods on 3 of my Harleys at my local dealership. I also installed quiet baffles mod by myself (which blew my engine) I didn't know quiet baffles could blow up my engine :( I lost the court battle because modding power train or exhaust will auto null and void all your warranty but the dealership can still if they want to cover your other parts as long as they are not moving parts. My engine blew up 3 times :( i finally got rid of it and bought a new 2023 Ducati V4S !
Even though i have spent over $500,000 at that dealership, they didn't even give a feck about me .... i was treated like a dog when ever it came to warranty. After how they treated me and over 10,000 other customers, the dealership finally shut its door because no one returned to buy or service at that dealership and that dealership was in Dianella WA called Frasers Harley. I bought over 12 new Harleys and Ducatis from them.
Awesome Video Matt!! I'm a truck driver for a big shipping company. And a lot of customers are not shipping at high value and fast shipping in the last 6-8 months. The last 3 months from today (03/23/23) things are looking bad. Unless the economy takes a drastic change for the good? I don't know how prices are going to come down with production and sales. Unless HD streamlines and cuts more costs. I think the Bronx and any model that has cost the company big money with little return. They had better learn from those mistakes and not allow inflation and economy turning for the worst catch them off guard even more. But that goes for everyone else as well (people not understanding the rise in cost)
Bottom line HD’s are expensive and always have been. But so are most leisure endeavors. Anybody gone skiing lately? Snowmobiling? Golfing? 4-wheeling? Jeeping? The list goes on and on. Many if not most fun pass-time activities cost. And when it comes to big touring bikes they are all expensive. Indian, Honda, Yamaha when they still made one…all approach or exceed $30k. Gotta pay to play as they say. I’ve owned a few new bikes in my day but will most likely buy used from here on out. It’s hard to justify a bike that costs as much as a car. Fortunately there’s no shortage of used bikes out there. Keep the shiny side up and knees in the breeze! ✌️
First thanks for broaching the subject. My take as one who has been on 2 wheels for 45+ years, and operated at management level in the oil and gas industry. Biggest issue I see is.... "Office Burden", the cost of employing those who contribute only in thinking and bean counting phase of a business has exploded over the last 40 years. Too much fat at the top. That is the corporate business model in most industries. 2nd issue is Margins.... 50 years ago, 10-20% margin was considered a good business model. Today, it is closer to 100+% margin. Your points are correct from your perspective. I look from value. Harley Davidson is a poor value. Resell is a fluid concept. last couple of years it has been up, but I suspect a crash coming in the used market. So for me, no new 30000 dollar motorcycle, that HDMC produces for less than $7500 a unit. ..... Plus, my gripe is why delete the Road King Standard?
Just quoted 30k for a Low Rider ST at my local HD dealer in Queens, NY! And I never indicated that I was in love with it. No pressure to buy that day, and will be test riding it next week. Going to check out an Indian Chief Sport soon. No rush to buy now, as I am ready to hit the road with my two 2006 MCs: Yamaha Roadliner S (1854 cc air-cooled V-twin) and my cult bike, a Honda ST1300. I am not an economist, but am predicting low prices starting in November (or sooner) for 2023 models. And low, low pricing for 2024 models from the beginning to the end of next year. My prediction includes all brands of motorcycles.........
Trying to get a price at a Harley Dealership is like pulling teeth . Even looking at their inventory on line there are no prices listed and when you call or email for a price quote they don’t give you definite answer or firm price .
Still hard to buy an HD, when they go for 25-30K. Just had to buy another brand, and pass the RK Special that I wanted. Just a middle class guy trying to raise a family, and love the ride, but HD has passed me up with that kind of money.
Where I'm at in NE plenty of dealers and all have the same markup and won't budge ,and all they want to talk is the monthly payment you want and not the out the door price. One even tried to tack on freight on a fn used bike.🤯
Sorry, but the prices have gotten insane, I have had 4 Harley's. Currently ride a BMW. Interesting how there's a big difference in how much HD has gone up vs BMW and others.
About 9 months ago I decided I wanted to buy a Harley. I had never ridden one, my neighbor let me ride his, and I was immediately hooked. Started with my local dealer and had a horrible experience and started branching out from there. 9 dealerships later, every single one was a horrible experience. I don't know how many hours I wasted getting jerked around. Would work out a deal over the phone or email just to go in-person and have them come up with some BS and change the price. Happened over and over again. Never dealt with so much BS trying to buy something in my life. Ended up going to the BMW dealer. Gave me a good OTD price first time I asked, no BS. Let me test ride the bike without a nanny on a set route at 55 mph. Signed the paperwork and bought myself a new GSA. I love HD motorcycles but the experience of trying to purchase one was awful and really soured me to the brand.
Great video Matt. The problem I see is the motor company is letting large MSO & private equity money buy family owned dealerships. They run them like car dealerships with a high turn over rate of employees & very hard to build a relationship with anyone. They love to mark up their bikes up-over msrp or put accessories on them to build a larger profit margin . My wife & I drive 60 miles to our dealership that is family owned like yours have dealt with this family for 20 years . Keep it in the family Bro
I bought a used Can Am Ryker Dealer and they slaid me withall kinds of charges and did it with such cleverness, I was caught unaware. Now they wont take the bike back.
I have walked out/quit working at dealerships that treat their clients like the way you described. Here's something to think about. I've seen way too many dealerships rotate either owners or management, which does not allow anyone to build up that long or even shorter term relationship. I'm not sure if you have access, but if you can, see how many owners and managers/teams have been through the Harley dealership here in New Orleans/Metairie, LA. Typically with new management, they also bring in their own sales teams and often push out the older salesmen.
I went to my local dealership looking for a Freewheeler. There are 3 of these dealerships owned by the same family in my city and they are known to not treat their customers very well. So anyway, sales rep was fine, we got along well and I thought I was close to a deal. Enter the sales manager. This jackass at all of 5'5" 150 decided he would try to intimidate me into something I didn't agree to and told him I wouldn't do. Bottom line, he cost his sales rep the sale and I bought used from an individual. I do however go to this dealership for clothing etc. because those ladies are always really cool but I will never purchase a bike from any of those dealerships nor do I get my service done there. Some dealers just seem to feel like they're doing you a favor by allowing you to spend your money there. This is a large reason I think people have a problem with the dealerships. Treat the customer right. It's not that hard. Thanks for the video. I live in Florida or I would definitely give your place a look.
Price increases are pretty much expected on everything but the bump to the Street Bob (and Sportster S) feels a little out of proportion. I do think the Heritage Classic still represents a good value.
Thanks so much Matt, great logical explanations, I live semi rural for sure and nearest dealership is 90 miles away, the deal w/my ST was only semi haggling, maybe some shell games but I went for it, theres been one instance where something was promised as a "I'll throw that in" as part of the deal, but when it came time to collect on that verbal promise, no dice, offered a discount on said item. Everybody else has been way cool especially in the service and parts depts. Anyways, now I'm rambling peace out !
For years I was the guy that owned several Harleys without ever stepping foot inside a dealership, and now due to life and kids etc I'm a guy that has 1 bike that's being financed. I feel I got a fair shake from the dealership I got my bike from but I see plenty around me to indicate that's not always the case. I live in California and if I ever decide to finance another bike I will make the trip to Laidlaw, for one because I like Matt's UA-cam content and for two because I've heard good things from everyone who's bought there.
I have zero problem with dealers making their money, my problem is using deception to make more money. I’ve bought at least a dozen new bikes and every time the additional costs were tax, title, documentation fee, freight and assembly. Those fees (not including tax) are usually around 1k. Went to a HD dealership for the first time ever to possibly buy a new Harley. The fees above the usual were out of control. After tax, the dealer included an additional 3k for freight and all the other fees. What got me is the manager telling me the $700ish fee for theft protection was not optional because HD makes that theft protection mandatory. I left. From what I hear, HD finances almost anyone, so the dealers just play smoke and mirrors with patents and then people end up with a way overpriced bike. I’ve been looking at used HDs in Facebook the last few days and it’s shocking how many people are stuck with these bikes. They can’t sell them because they owe so much more than the bikes are worth. I think HD and their dealers need to rethink their strategies. The market is flooded with newer HD bikes due to the easy but expensive and long-term financing.
The issue I have with one of your point is that once you have a bad experience at a dealership it can turn you off to the entire buying process. I recently went to purchase a Road Glide Custom and the sales manager was such an arrogant douchebag that I walked out and completely bagged the idea of buying the bike at all. The last thing I meed os to drive to hours and risk having the same awful experience somewhere else. I think this new era of the MoCo convincing is that this is an almighty premium product has rubbed off on the dealerahips where they act like they don’t need the customers as much as we need them
If they’re not trying to “rip you off”, then why is the motor company worried about how much a dealership is selling Harley stuff online for and forcing them to only sell within their target areas? And each dealership has to agree to the motor companies online sales policies. Example, Utah Harley was selling everything online at a huge discount but was forced by the motor company to stop this past January 1st. The dealership obviously wasn’t loosing money. Makes no sense. It’s soured my willingness to keep giving Harley my money. I love my road glide ultra but when it dies, I’m not sure I’ll be in the market for another Harley.
Those dealers that offer that tires for life crap can add thousands on top of MSRP. Some dealers will overprice the bikes by almost $10k and even if executed properly, you manage to negotiate those $10k off of the OTD price, they’ll still try and get you with stupid BS tires for life useless warranty. I learned that the hard way. My Slim is upside down right now cuz of that! Can’t even trade it in now! Live and learn! Thanks for this video Matt. Very informative. Saves others from making the same mistakes 😔
I think it’s not only the dealership as a whole that influences the buying experience but it comes down to the salesperson. I recently left my local dealership that I’ve bought new bikes off for 20 years and bought from another dealership a hundred miles away. Ironically it is a sister dealership to my local dealership. The difference was the sales staff changed at my local dealership and it wasn’t a good experience. Funny there was no markups at the store I bought from. I actually got some discounts.
To your first point, if Harley Davidson was completely transparent with their pricing it would help them out a lot more. At best they are opaque, for example lets look at a 2023 Road Glide. On the website it says the MSRP is $21,999. Then if you scroll down to the bottom of the page, click on pricing, then you see that $21,999 is not MSRP, it's base cost of a black bike + $850 freight + $1000 surcharge, so your MSRP is actually $23, 849 for a basic bike. That's not including if you want ABS, RDRS, Premium Audio, or if you live in California. Just say from the beginning that the motorcycle is $23,849. To your second point, there are three dealerships within 30 minutes of my house. Two are owned by the same LLC and the third is part of a larger LLC in multiple states. The first two were charging $5000 to $6000 OVER the actual MSRP when I was shopping for my bike. The second not only was not charging anything over actual MSRP but was extremely up front about the pricing and walked through all of it. Maybe it's because they have many more locations or maybe it's because the first company is greedy. There is no reason there should be that much difference in the price of the same bike from different dealers. This isn't just HD dealers, this is a pandemic across all motor vehicles, and there are hundreds of videos going over just how people aren't buying it and companies like Ford are thinking of doing away with the traditional dealership model. I guess the overall point I'm trying to make is this, people feel like they're being taken advantage of. No one likes that feeling and people are getting more and more vocal about it.
It doesn't take anything more than a modicum of common sense to know if you're getting ripped off or not. Gut feeling? Trust it. Surchages? Prep fees? Markups? Absolute rip. Corporate and dealer greed. No excuse for any of it. Automobile dealers may be able to get away with this BS for longer as cars and trucks are needs, but for most, bikes aren't. Especially Harleys. The current jackass CEO wants to make the brand "exclusive" and "premium", well, guess what the first things to go are when people decide to stop spending money (or worse, the economy tanks and we head into a recession?) Non-necessities. I think he has zero pulse on not only his own clientele but the market in general and is leading Harley down a very bad path of sky-high prices & dipping quality in an era where majority of people have less and less disposable income by the day.
Harley are over priced. To many hidden costs. Harley doesn't want to back there bikes up when they have a defect in them. I am pretty much done with Harley Davidson.
I don't have a problem paying MSRP because of the cost going up. The problem I have is when a Dealership tries to charge me 38,000 for a Sreetglide ST. They wanted my 2020 Streetglide special with 9500 miles on it with 6500 down payment and finance 11,500. I laughed at them because they are the ones that called me at home to sell me a bike. All I can say is that I wouldn't even be looking had they told me the truth about my 2020 Streetglide Special. I told them before I bought the bike that I needed the Clutch adjusted because the friction zone was in the wrong spot for my hands. They just said OK. I bought the bike and when I rode it home I noticed the Clutch wasn't adjusted yet. I later found out on my first service that it isn't adjustable because it is Hydraulic. So they pay me back with a deal like the one aforementioned. This is the story that I tell everyone now. How do you think that affects business for Harley Davidson. I'm still a Harley Davidson Fanboy admittedly so. I know there has to be someone out there that is willing to sell at MSRP.
You can buy a Timex or a Rolex, they both tell time. It just comes down to how much you personally want to spend for that ability to tell time. I just find it silly to blame Rolex because I feel it cost to much. Love the transparency Matt, great video as usual. 🤙🏻
I’m pretty sure my statement was comparing a Timex to a Rolex, with any Harley comparisons directed to the act of purchasing a more expensive item like a Rolex. But words confusing and comprehension hard. But let’s have some fun. Let’s say I was comparing Rolex to a Harley. Both are antiquated technologies, both have performance issues if not serviced regularly and for the most part both are purchased for the look and status it gives the owner over technological advancements and reliability. So yes, I guess the two actually are relatable. 😂
I am very much against dealerships adding a markup over msrp just because they can the customer effectively has lost that money and the normal depreciation the moment they leave the dealership as they won’t get it back when they sell or trade in as they will only get the “book price”. This practice long term will kill the business as people will go elsewhere or not bother the dealership would be better off trying to sell upgrades stage one or two , suspension etc not nitrogen in the tyres and overpriced coatings. I live within 30 miles of 3 dealerships two who I will buy from and one which I will never go to again even if they are the last Harley dealership in the country.
Is Harley raising wages for its employees at the same inflation rates that they are raising their prices? I would love to have the option of shopping around, and i do have 3 dealerships within 100 miles. All owned by the same group. I mourn the small dealer.
Thanks for sharing Matt! I wish anyone who complains about price increases would google the governments CPI calculator. The first new Harley I ever priced was a 1976 Super Glide and it was $3600 (wish I could find one for that now). As of February 2023, that's $19,478 today. The closest comparable modern bike is a Softail Standard (with ABS, shipping, and surcharge) its $17k. Thats $2,478 LESS for a LOT more bike performance wise. The other pet peeve I have is the old canard that Harley was a "working mans" bike. That '76 Super Glide was $600 more than my first new Chevy Nova I bought 2 years before. USED Harleys were a working man's bike back then. If you did buy a new Harley, you usually had to cut back someplace else like be single or married with no kids, drive a beater car/truck and/or live in a trailer/dive. Part of me wants to blame this complaining on an "entitled" (I deserve to have it all my way) mentality some seem to have now. I grant that some dealers are shady, but when I sold Harleys back in '81, I saw how tight margins were. Some people think there is a "pot of gold" profit per unit. I remember a Super Glide made the dealer $1000 profit then (minus my $100...10% commission) And they had to pay the rent, utilities, staff, advertising, and taxes out of that $900. This was not the thousands of dollars I thought they made before I worked there. Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit, ride safe!
Matt, your dealership might not be ripping off your customers, but send some of your employees out and around Los Angeles and other areas "undercover" and ask them to try to negotiate pricing on new HD's from other dealerships, or ask your more discreet "friends" to do so, and get back to us with what the results are. No "inter dealership deals" or trades. Try trading in a used Low Rider S and see what they offer you, WITHOUT using their financing. See how much money you lose in 1 to 3 or 4 years on your trade in, then see what they list it for in a couple of months.
I'm an old fart. Going through another childhood. I've had 3 different Harleys in 7 years. My gripe mainly, is why in hell doesn't Harley put a reverse in a 900 pound motorcycle!? The dealership I use recently changed hands and there was a mass exodus of employees.😢 I was shocked by the new people's charge for a warranty check up and full fluid (oil) change. It went from $285 to $727. That's a bit much of a jump. Especially when I did a 3 hole change myself for $92.
I’m in Thailand. The situation here is very different. While overall motorcycles are more expensive over here. Average income are also very low. Harley Davison are out of reach for most people. Bike like a Rebel 500 or RE Super Meteor 650 are considered “dream bike” for many. With all those reasons. Harley Dealership over here are willing to give customers very good deals. I just have a privilege to buy my first Harley last month, a Nightster 975. They gave me 15% price discount for the bike and 20% discount for accessories with free installation. That made my 975 cost cheaper than a Triumph Bobber and way cheaper than an Indian Scout, which is an imported bike here. I didn’t even have to negotiate at all. Superb services here.
Where Harley needs to improve drastically is in their customer service.
In general any motorcycle dealer. I went today to a BMW and 5 people hanging there nobody bothered to greet me. One guy eating lunch in the corner shouted "how can I help you" while eating lunch and looking at his screen. No eye contact.
HarleyDavidson tried to turn Erik Buell invisible and erase the greatest legacy they owned over their egos being bruised for all of his contributions to improve on their engineering of an inferior design in the xl line. Then he stock Buells won the sportsbike championship first year with a 100% stock Rotax powered bike/s. Harley canceled them, then continued to use his upgrades to improve the xl line and even his ideas in the Milwaukee 8. They are elitest snobs. I love the bikes. But if you gotta be a retired CEO to afford one, who needs to ride at 75. I need to ride now. BTW, Buell was the only division of HD in the black fiscally when they were erased.
It sure seems like they are intentionally trying to destroy the company by not doing anything about the dealership problems. Perhaps HDMC is letting the dealerships destroy themselves because a different business model is in the works.
Sure would be nice to find a trustworthy H.D. dealership.
A problem over the past couple of years is that many H.D. dealers are bought up by company's that own several auto dealers. These company's own several H.D. dealerships as well. So, if you don't like how you were treated at one dealer, the dealer 40 miles away is owned by the same company and has the same markup and prices.
Hello
How are you doing?
Hey Jerry. Thanks for weighing in on the topic. I always appreciate your insights.
How's that new Kawasaki Jerry. Funny how those bike prices aren't affected the same way and at the same, skyrocketing rate as Harley though, eh? LOL
I believe you even called the Kawasaki Voyager one of the better touring bikes. It is still a great deal! Now if Kawasaki had the same marketed culture as Harley, perhaps this would be a different conversation. Maybe one day soon it will.
100 percent! I live in Port St Lucie, and the four dealerships within a 50-mile radius of me are all sister companies and owned by the same person.
@@Joseph-wh5of same here on the east coast of florida... from central to south florida they are all owned by the same guy in miami ... terrible situation
I went into a Harley-Davidson dealer in San Jose California. MSRP on that motorcycle is around 20 grand the manager said after all the additional charges it would be around 28,000 I said forget it and walked out.
Yup, the one right off of 280. The prices there are a joke! Cool shop and a massive inventory but honestly it’s just good for looking at. I honestly believe they raise the prices like that because of all the high rollers that live in the area, they mark it up just like all of the home rents, etc
A 21000 bike at my dealer will have at least 3600 in BS fees plus tax and license
This is an all too common practice. Both the dealerships in the Portland area pull this crap, especially Volcano HD. When the dealership doesn't have a price tag on the bike, you can expect that they will try to find a way to gouge you for whatever they can get out of you.
I did the same today. Ill pay MSRP or buy an Indian.
I was a Harley employee in Kansas City. In 2013 the Mount Rushmore models first came out. The local dealership tried to charge me 4k over MSRP. I asked him if he knew where I worked and he said it didn't matter lol. I drove 75 miles west to Topeka KS where they sold me a bike at MSRP with no set up fees.
Setup/Prep fees are some of the biggest BS a dealer can pull. If dealers aren’t making enough from msrp, clothing and service department, they need to take that to take that up with the Motor Company and reevaluate their own management. Those fees are telling.
They also profit off loan interest and warranties. Don’t forget those.
I live in Orange county. I bought 2 bikes from Huntington beach Harley. Next one will be from Laidlaws. Just because of What I've heard, read, and experienced.
First there were doc fees….then there were bullshit set up fees….then came the freight fees…..now surcharges and bullshit market adjustment fees. Harley dealers will suffer the same fate as ford and Chevy dealers. Tons of bikes they can’t sell. It’s disgusting that hd is still charging a surcharge. I’ve been riding and buy new since 2002. I’d rather put crazy money into my current bike than feed the greedy corporate machine that hd has become.
I worked at a Harley dealer for a minute. This was a dealer that "sold at MSRP", except they didn't. They just jacked on warranties and other shit you had to add on if you wanted a new bike, it's all a sham. The baseline was the sticker, but by the time you got to the dotted line you were far above that.
I bought a tourer last year. I went to three dealerships with my specification for the bike and extras to ask each for a quote for the complete bike on the road. I told them this was what I was doing and the lowest quote would get my service. I told them I would not be returning to try and get them to undercut each other - just give me the best price. I went with the dealership giving the best price and then when we were signing the contract they started adding extras - admin fee, parts fitting fee, registration fee etc. They wouldn't back down and nor would I so they returned my deposit and I went to the second dealer who delivered the bike as specified for the price agreed. I agree with you Matt, if a dealer doesn't play fair, don't use them.
The local dealerships in my area don’t put price tags on their bikes and are coy when you ask about them. I was looking at a street glide special and asked if the price was in the low 30’s and the salesman said high 30’s low 40’s. That works out to a 7 to 10k mark up, and the finance deals were awful as well. In the end I purchased a bmw r 18 b for under 20k out the door with an interest free loan to boot. They are definitely pricing themselves out of sales.
no kidding, I would ask for price, and they would go.."mid twenties". Frustrating.
I agree 100% with you
I brought my 2005 Road King into local dealer in Va. for repair. Cam chain tensioners failed. Spoke to the service dept, they said they could take care of it. Cost me $150.00 to have it towed, driver pushed the bike inside. Service manager wrote out ticket, do not start the bike. My mechanic friend had already diagnosed the problem, listened to it with a stethoscope, your tensioner are bad he told me. Told the service Manger don't operate the bike, it was even written on the repair order ny the manager. 7 days later they call me, an he says his top mechanic listened to my bike, an said I need a new long block, $9000.00 he said. Man it said on the invoice don't start the bike. Hell you could have done further damage I said. Take the cover off an send me pictures, we were trying to save you the $150.00 for the inspection. They wrote on the invoice, it needed a new motor, however it could be fixed. Well what is it ? does it need a new motor ? Or can it be fixed. Wound up having to have it towed to my friends house who repaired it. Bike had 18,000 miles on it twin cam 88. A Harley defect, they wouldn't take responsibility for. .y bike has had 20 tanks of gas run through the engine no issues. Harley Davidson, they don't want to work on older bikes is what their salesman told me. Well then why the he'll did they tell me to bring it in ? Guess I'll just have to take it to the local sport bike who will work on the bike. So I'm out $450.00 for the experiences. Yes Harley Dealers do rip off they're customers. I didnt name the dealership, but they lost my buisness. I'll order my parts online.
Huge red flag when a dealer won't give you a price.
I called one for a listing I saw online. Immediately got the run around, come in, take it for a ride, let's value your trade, what's your E-mail, blah blah blah. I said "please, I'm only calling for a price, please tell me how much it is, I'm not interested in anything else at this time other than that." A bunch of stammering and BS later, I had to tell the sales guy on the other end of the line "lose my number, don't add me in your system, don't ever contact me again."
Why would I want to do business with a place that can't even give a number? Imagine trying to order lunch and the place won't tell you how much your sandwich will be? It's absurd.
You can’t blame all dealers or sales people. Like Matt said if you’re not happy try another dealer. I called got a price over the phone and closed a deal in 10 min over the phone on a 22 Street Glide Special.
One of my peeves of my local dealership is when I'm browsing on their website, either new or used they don't show the price but instead the website says "call for price".
Good thing there's two HD dealerships within 20 minutes from me.
I ended up buying from a dealer 2 hours away. It was a great experience and I will buy from them again. I won’t by from my “local dealers” based on the initial experience. I left and found a dealer that values my business and treats you with respect.
Hello
How are you doing?
How much did you pay in dealer/ set up/ dock fees
The markup that most dealers are doing is ridiculous. On top of bogus added fees that is not necessary.
What about service? $169/hr.? Really? Dealership wouldn't loan me a pair of pliers unless my bike was "on the clock"...Ridiculous!!
@@sobergnostic2222 Amen
$1200.00 new bike prep fee.
@@brucerobeson6760 $185/hr in San Francisco
That's why I live in Mexico...Found an excellent guy down here in Rosarito, Baja that just sez: "How much do you think it was worth" (reverse psychology, but it works for me)!!
$1,000 charge for freight, when it's listed at $375. $1,000 charge for set-up when there is no actual set-up charge. Dealers are allowed a certain number of hours if needed to prep a new bike , they are then reimbursed in a parts credit. Any charge for a set-up fee is another rip off.
That’s some nerve of dealers charge over listed freight 🤣
I hear you Matt, but the bottom line is that the typical guy just can't justify the price of a Harley along with his mortgage, car note, electric bill, and so on.
Man, I'd LOVE a new Harley, but it'll never happen unless that lotto ticket comes in.
Thanks for your honesty and ride safe.
Don't forget natural gas bill. SoCal Gas just ripped off all their customers.
Matt, I agree with you completely. I’m a retired teacher and coach from central Illinois so you know I’m not wealthy by any means. My dealer Walters Brothers in Peoria, Illinois has to make a profit to stay in business, but have always been extremely fair and provide great service. I’m called by name by every member of their staff and treated like a friend not just another customer. I think everyone has to decide what their passion is and find the right dealership for them. Price is important, but service and relationships is what’s important to me
There are plenty of used Harley's out there at very affordable prices,,,🤸🇨🇦
Honestly I felt the same before. But if you want something in life you have to take a chance, get off your butt and work. I thought I'd never be able to afford one but went and started mowing yards as a side hustle. I don't have but about 7-8 yards to mow a week but 30-50 a yard depending on how big times 7-8 yards a week, than I can. So honestly if want to get one go for it. Start on a used one and maybe trade it off a year or so down the road. And ask any older person what they wish they did different. Most will say the regret not taking chances in life and doing stuff. I would rather regret doing something and trying than regret not even trying at all. You live once, live everyday like it's your last and enjoy things when they come to you. Safe travels my friend and if you ever get one keep the wheels down and see you on the road.
Eric-combined my wife and i made over 200k last year. NO debt except for a 1500 mortgage. we are VERY lucky and worked hard to get there. There is still NO WAY I'd pay full msrp + freight + a FUCKING surcharge for anything that HD makes. I LOVE harley and always have but enough is enough. get ready because the next thing is Harleys made in CHINA...They already have a Chinese made bike for their riding schools. it's disgusting.
Hey Matt, you’re spot on with all your comments! Walked out of a dealer in central Florida (my dealer, Stormy Hill HD closed so had to go somewhere else) that had a $2,500 fee in tiny print. They chased me out the door and will never step foot in that dealer again. Found another dealer that was super nice to deal with and no BS fees. Plenty of good dealers around the country. Really wish you were in Florida!! But, when I’m in SoCal I’ll stop in and buy a t-shirt.
Thanks for watching and sharing your experience Jim. Come say hi. 🤙🏼
Good discussion Matt. I’m a 35 year HD guy. For almost all that time I have been a customer and friend of Lyndon Abel. Followed him through at least three dealerships. For several years now he has been general manager at AllAmerican Harley Davidson in southern Maryland. These guys are straight up, honest, professional, knowledgeable, and always make you feel at home. When I trade in my old bike for a new road king a couple of years ago I got a great deal with no run around. If any of your readers are in the Washington DC area, go see Lyndon. These guys what do you right.
I have the answer for those folks who want to own a Harley but find it too expensive. Buy used! My wife and I love to ride and in the last two years, I have bought and sold 3 Harleys from 3 to 5 years old. The first was my touring bike, the next was my wife's starter bike and most recently she also got a touring bike. All 3 of these bikes combined cost me 15 to 20 thousand dollars less than one brand-new Harley! The answer is to know what you want, look for it, and be patient. The last tip is never to buy a bike at a dealership new or used if you're trying to get the best deal.
But have to watch for those selling bikes with a salvage title. Not dealerships but third party. Heard too many horror stories so be careful.
I agree, used bikes are great value. Most owners really look after their Harley and most owners do very few miles. I have great deals on low mileage used bikes.
Lot of junk bikes on used market
One of the biggest complaints I have at dealerships is the cost they charge per hour to work on it.
I recently went to my local dealer and made an honest and straightforward attempt to buy a new RGS and ultimately found they priced it exactly $4k over MSRP. (This is 30 min in before they would actually give me a price, and asked for a credit check first) Nope. I will buy used or elsewhere.
Exactly! I live in the northeast and can't really ride all year long. What gets me is that my low mileage pristine bike is worth nothing on trade but their new bike is what it is. Good for them I guess but they won't be selling me a new one and I'll just keep what I have for now.
I went to see a new one and it would top 30k out of the door. I paid 21k on a pre-owned, brand new not even 5k miles, with a lot of accessories like pipes, pegs, back rest at the same dealer. I really wanted a new one and was not seriously considering the pre-owned, until I put the figures on paper and saw that It would cost me almost 50% more, and I would spend 3k on the accessories that I would end up putting on anyways.
Good Day: Matt, The biggest thing that gits me is the price of the freight? Especially when a dealership receives more than two bikes. From York PA. To a dealer is $850.00. When I can ship a bike for $246.00. Even with gas prices or up, one trailer can delivery 20 motorcycles, Where's the 17,000.00 on freight going...Cin-Cin and Salute. Have a bless day....
Hey Matt,
I bought a 2022 FXLRST when they first dropped last year. I pre-ordered with my dealer and worked everything out with them before the bike even showed up. They honored MSRP, along with the additional H-D charges, so I ended up paying the (at that time) $600 surcharge. I also ended up with the $1,000 setup fee. I haggled with them a bit on that point, as I have done with all my other bikes, but the fact of the matter is that the bike was so in-demand that they were completely unwilling to budge. If I wasn't willing to pay the setup fee, there were 6 other people in line behind me that were. All in all, I didn't blame my dealer for their stance on that, based on the demand, and I was happy with the overall process of buying that motorcycle. This also wasn't the first bike I had purchased from them.
The issue I have is more with H-D-their pricing, surcharges, etc. While we all can understand the supply chain issues that went on during the pandemic, I also think manufacturers used that excuse to their advantage. It was a convenient way for them to simply make more money. I'm not expert on H-D's overhead, but I have a hard time believing the company would go into the red without the ridiculous surcharges they're still implementing today. Now that all that extra cash flow is there, it seems as though they're having a hard time giving it up. I believe the surcharges we've seen are nothing but corporate greed.
You hit the nail on the head, though. People look at H-D as a "rich man's brand." We've normalized the $30K motorcycle. Just so I can remind H-D: people can legally start riding at 16. There aren't many 16 year olds I know willing to shell out $30k, over even $15k+ for that matter on their first bike. H-D have effectively priced themselves out of the new generation of rider. Sure, there's a used market-but when you can buy a brand new beginner-friendly Honda for $5K, is there even a decision to be made? H-D is banking all of their new sales on an older generation of rider, who also happen to have the money to shell out. They haven't done anything to capture the new generation, especially since the majority of the new generation can't even get out of mom's house and afford a $15k car, let alone a motorcycle.
I started at my local dealership and was disgusted by how I was treated by the sales team. So I traveled 90 miles to another dealership who sold me my 2023 Road Glide Limited at MSRP with no additional fees and did not play games. I tell anyone who asks about my experience. There are lots of dealerships out there 90 miles is nothing. I enjoyed the ride and my buying experience. I agree with you Matt. Do not give your business to someone who treats you poorly.
In a word…. YES
When our local dealer adds a markup of say $2,500 over msrp our first move is to offer $2,500 under msrp then discount every other thing possible. What I’m saying is a mark up pisses the customer off and instantly turns it into we could care less negotiation.
Yes MSRP has gone up, but many dealers are marking them way up. A semi-local dealer quoted me 35k on a stock 2022 Midnight Crimson Road King Special . The main problem is the Dealers.
I agree. Parts and material have gone up, but a $5k Jack-up is simple extortion. Vote with your feet- that’s what I’m doing.
Crazy, I paid 21k on a pre-owned Road Glide Standard , brand new not even 5k miles, with a lot of accessories like pipes, pegs, back rest. Imagine 35k plus taxes, it's almost twice!
@@fabiors10 nice deal! I walked on that clown.
Profit margins on a Harley even when sold at MSRP are higher than the margin on most new cars. If people had any idea how much dealers made on their Harley vs. their car they'd be sick. Yet, most people expect some massive discount on cars and think they got a great deal on their Harley by paying MSRP or even a little less. Average $35,000 new car might have a $1000-1500 spread from invoice to MSRP - that $35k touring bike you just bought is usually $5-7k. You don't have to pay over MSRP on a Harley to get raked.
I don’t think it’s dealers as much as it’s the brand itself , waaayyyyyyy overpriced !!!! Blue collar can’t even come close to affording them now. Pricing everyone out is going to make it collapse. The dealers just follow suit.
Two-thirds of new HD bike sales are financed. Guess who does the financing? Rhymes with Darley-Havidson.
I bought a Harley yesterday. The sales people were nice enough, but they might as well be McDonald’s cashiers. No ability to negotiate. You take what they have at the price listed, or you walk. If you want a slightly lower interest rate, you have to buy an extended warranty. I noticed the change in interest rate when reviewing the contract (not explained prior to asking me to sign). When I mentioned it to the sales guy, he just shrugged. Not a very impressive experience.
When my local dealership (Sacramento) has at LEAST a $5000 markup on every single bike on their floor, it's obvious they don't want my business.
No price tags at the Adamec HD’s here in Jacksonville, FL. That’s a BIG redflag and a shift vs 2021 when I bought my Road King. I get the “feast/famine” bit and it IS driven by supply/demand. Great video Matt- thanks for your continued transparency- very topical.
Hello
How are you doing?
I’ve never felt ripped off by a dealership on the price of a new bike. I’ve only been ripped off on the valuation on trade ins.
On another topic, I feel bad for dealers in California having to deal with all the ridiculous regulations.
trade-in is always the absolute lowest, cars or bikes... its the cheapest way dealers get new bikes, even less than auction prices usually. You do a trade in knowing you are losing a lot of money because you want to just get rid of it fast without having to do any extra work selling it yourself. Its paying a lot for a convenience. A lot of people do it because its easy... dealing with people selling directly to someone yourself can be a nightmare, or a daunting task a lot of people don't want to mess with.
Don't feel bad for any California business or client.....they VOTE for the idiotic governments they have.
@@AyaWetts Yep, well said.
Just learned that a friend of mine bought a Harley Trike. The took his loaded ultra glide for payoff 11,000 and took 4000 off the Trike. 2017 with just over 8000 miles, paid over 29000 for it, his payments are over 700 with a credit score of 811,
11 % interest and will pay back over 51000. How can an average Joe afford to have a bike from HD. I'm through with ever wanting one and will never own one. Sad 😥
I'd say not all dealerships are like yours. Almost anywhere I went to buy a bike, weather it be Honda, Kawasaki or Harley...there was a big mark up. I think because Harleys are premium products to begin with, they're expensive and any mark up puts them out of reach to any potential new Harley riders.
I totally agree with the rant about buying from a dealership that gives you a hard time and high prices. Don't give them your business. You certainly don't have to. I've bought two Harleys from a dealership in another state 2.5 hours away because the local ones suck, treat the customer like an idiot and have high prices. Why would I give them business? In the end, I am willing to spend more time and money to get service if that service is quality.
I bought a new '21 Lowrider S a year, year and a half ago from the dealership 2.5 hours away, opting to go there instead of my local dealer. It was right before the new model year was going to start arriving at dealers. I got them to do a stage 2 to the bike at the time of purchase with some other part installs. The service was very good and the whole dealership experience was very upstanding. They even delivered the bike to my home when all the engine work was completed. Can't really beat that and to me, that is worth it.
I think it is wrong for the motorcompany to force out family owned dealers
My local HD dealer had a $3k "availability fee" on a 2022 but was throwing $2500 in accessories credit. This was 2 days ago on a Pan America military green. I would never pay a markup at a dealer. Setup fees are a joke too. They charge $895. That's about 10 hours at shop rate. Ridiculous.
Freight on my new Wing was half what HD charges and it was shipped across the Pacific and then across the US. The factory surcharge is just a scam and I never see it going away at HD. Honda surcharge was like $300 and the aluminum Honda uses is much more costly than the steel HD uses. This year ended my 20 year run of HD.
If HD is a premium brand, why don’t they have premium comfort seats and premium suspension from factory?
I have no complaints on the softtail suspension. But the very first thing was getting those rears done on my touring bike. They were garbage. I played with adjustment across the entire range of adjustment. The owners manual recommendations were worthless.
My pan am and my lowrider s both had/have great suspension from the factory, at least for the intended use case.
Harley could learn a lot from the suspension you see on metric bikes. A different color and a few other things are all Harley offers in their new bikes.
Why are people so upset by somebody asking for more for something. We ALL do it. We don't sell at a loss, or less than we want. All prices have gone up. You can afford a bike, you can buy a used one, or a base model. You may not be able to afford the one you want. I would have slapped myself 7 years ago when I started riding if I thought buying a 30K bike...I've owned 2 new and 1 used in that timeline.
I went the used route because of the markups and supply demand issues. Since 2019, the Ultra limited really haven't changed. so a slightly used FLHTK was purchased. No MRSP. freight, prep, or "market value" up charges were paid.
I live in northeast Florida and the dealers here have an average markup above MSRP of $7000 to $12000 dollars. They have effectively marked out the majority of longtime customers. Then when you turn around to trade the bike in they base the value of trade off MSRP not the increased price you bought it for.
Asked my local dealer about installing Ohlins fork suspension in my 2021 Road Glide. They wanted 5, yes FIVE hours labor at $120 an hour. No way. I just got back from Daytona where at the Ohlins booth had it installed for free. I timed him, 1 hour and 43 minutes. I look for independents now or do it myself if I feel comfortable, unless it’s warranty work. They’ve lost me as a service customer.
I walked into a Harley dealership looked at the huge price markups, and quickly left. Drove less than fifty miles to another Harley dealership and purchased a bike. LOL
As long as customers keep paying the dealer mark up, The Dealers will keep charging it. Basic math.
🤘⚡️🤘✨✨✨
Makes perfect sense what you are saying. If you aren't happy with the price or the service, don't buy it. Shop around. I've bought two new Harleys from 2 different dealerships here in Queensland Australia in the past 5 years. The first was a MY18 Breakout which had a stage 1 Performance kit. I had a 5 minute discussion on the telephone with the salesman a few days after I test rode the demo model, we settled on a price and I bought it.
The second bike I bought was from a different dealership about a few hours from Brisbane. I bought the bike after watching the Master tech from the dealership building bikes on his UA-cam channel. I contacted him, told him what I wanted on the new Lowrider S and asked for a quote. They gave me an all inclusive price including the new bike, all the fruit I wanted on it, the labour and dyno test. We haggled for a few minutes and settled on a price. I would have liked to get both bikes a bit less expensive but sometimes in life if you want what you want when you want it you have to concede a little bit. Happy with both bikes and have never once felt ripped off.
Love your honesty Matt. It is true that when you are loyal to a dealership they are loyal to you. I have experienced it myself. Thanks for explaining the dealership mark up. It makes sense.
I was loyal to my dealship & thay were disloyal to me & shit on me. Stole parts off my bike. Still to this day have felled to correct it or even do anything. They are no longer in business.
I have been loyal to my local dealership since 1968. They have gone downhill since the new owner bought the place. At first it was great, and I bought three touring bikes from the new owner in 5 years. Now they have finally lost my business. I will never spend another penny in the dealership again. Loyalty is only one sided at this dealer. If I buy another bike, I will travel a long distance for the right deal.
Very well-done Mr. Laidlaw, a nicely balanced presentation addressing a tough topic. Thank you for standing up and telling it like it is.
Hello
How are you doing?
@@emeliaalfaro I'm doing fine, thank you for asking. Trust you are as well.
@@richardgitz2264 yes I’m good
Sorry if my approach was awkward. I must admit you really speak good in that comment.
@@richardgitz2264 what are you up to today?
@@emeliaalfaro No problem, I'm not accustomed to having chats on UA-cam. I will be riding both my bicycle and my motorbike today, hope you have a great day as well.
Reno Harley-Davidson dealership tried to charge me $1990 prep fee.
Has the ceo or franchise owner taken a pay cut?
No
It's greed man
Thanks for in the insight Matt. The dealer I bought my Pan America from only changers MSRP, taxes and tags (On the East Coast). I try to thank them with my wallet. I attend their events. Spend $$ in the store and pay for service. Been riding for 30 years. 1st Harley. Loving it! I think if dealerships are upfront with fees, post them on the bike, they will get less complaints.
What state, if you don't mind me asking.
@@jaym8027 Eisenhauer's in Chesapeake City Maryland. I believe they have two other locations, I only know the one in York PA. I'm guessing its the same deal.
Thanks! SE PA is just about one big conglomerate now, I'm not a fan. I'll have a look at those guys. Good luck to you
Thank you so much Matt for ALL that you do for the motorcycle community, as a whole. I appreciate your honesty on these sort of topics and I don't think you are wrong at all. I live in the San Diego area and would have gladly made the trip to your dealership to buy a Road King Special since the Coronado Harley Dealership was trying to convince me that the only way they could sell me a bike was to accept a 24% APR. I ended up going to a local Indian dealership instead, falling head over heels for a different bike and was sold the Springfield Dark Horse you see in my profile at MSRP and at 7% APR.
How are you liking the Indian. Reviews seem to be inconsistent with them.
LOL - His reality is hardly reflective of many owners. Even you, while kissing his butt has admitted that you felt you were being taken. This is hilarious commentary
My local dealer throws bolts into the breather or give us our bikes back after servicing without putting oil back in. Once i got my bike back with damaged folk seals, they were doing wheelies on my bike. They also scam us out of warranty too. After owning 12 new Harleys since 2013 we no longer buy Harleys.
My local dealers are charging $55,000 to $80,000 for their bikes :) we now only buy Ducati and other super bikes.
Around my area dealers ask what payment you're looking for, which is a red flag to me. I'm not shopping for a payment, I want an out the door price, so they start high to feel you out and see how gullible you are. Eventually they'll put you on the spot and say make an offer. Then they write it up to go present it to their manager and want you to sign it so they can go ding your credit to check it before you even know if they're going to honor your offer. That's where I draw the line, I won't sign till I know the price and they sign off on it. That process is bass-ackwards. It's like playing poker when you fold and never find out what the best price is. They'll do the whole song and dance with their manager, then come back with a price thousands of dollars higher than your offer after you've taken a hit on your credit, and the deal never gets done. It doesn't cost them anything to negotiate a deal before hitting your credit report.
Had that happen to me at a dealership, they told me they would run a "soft check" that wouldn't affect my credit just so they could go over some numbers with me. Didn't I feel like an idiot when my credit dinged me for getting a hard pull from the dealership lol. I'm happy I didn't buy a bike from them that day, and I'll never be going to that dealer ever again
I was working in sales once and had a kid that came in for an 883. Young, maybe 20 years old, had a little money to put down. I showed him a bike, he fell in love, I gave him realistic numbers on what cost would be, he said he could swing it, I told him I could get him on it, he was really excited, we sat down.
Management came over and quoted him almost 2x per month what it should've been without a credit pull. The kid looked shocked and like he wanted to cry. I told him to give me a minute, went up to the manager, and said "the hell was that?" I was told "well that's what it's going to cost him", which was absolute bullshit. I know what it costs to finance 10k, even with an absurd interest rate they weren't close. I said "the kid would've signed right there if you had given him something EVEN CLOSE to the ballpark, and you just screwed us both." Management replied "get him to stick around, we'll quote him something better in a minute."
By the time I got back to the desk the kid had already gotten a hard no from his girlfriend and they were halfway out the door.
Suffice to say I didn't last long at that place.
The whole shell game with the out the door price is what I have a problem with. Just show the price up front instead of acting like a sleazy vulture. It really leaves you feeling like they don't have your best interest in mind and don't care if you ever come back. Not a good look for the dealership.
Standard practice that car dealerships are doing. They all just adopted that way of selling. Consumers go along with it so why not continue to do it?
@@mojomanmurph1925 Do consumers have a choice? I mean yeah you can walk, but if they're all doing it...
You nailed it Matt. If a dealer puts you through hell...walk away and find a dealer that gives you the best deal up front. Walked out of a central Cali dealer that wanted to charge me 30k for a bare bones Pan Am, found a dealer in NorCal that sold me a '23 PAS ,delivered to my doorstep, with full luggage ,ARH, laced wheels and the first service thrown in for 25 OTD. Even called you guys and was prepared to make the drive but Yuba City HD came through as stand up guys just like your dealership. Great take on the current situation !
My local H-D dealer is light on the markups, they have the usual setup/doc fees, but there’s a $1,000 “Dealer available fee” I think is ridiculous. The sales staff there are awesome though, so I’m sure it won’t be hard to negotiate that fee down or out. Great video Matt!
I love my local dealership ordered my 22 low rider s with them and they took $1000 off msrp only fee they had that wasn’t on the Harley site was $200 or so prep fee
My local dealer has $7k marked up over MSRP for a Lowrider ST. Add up all their other expenses on top of that, crazy BS happening there. Matt is a stand up guy. I've bought more new HD's than most riders, and I'm having a tough time thinking about ever buying another new one.
Funny, what you say makes perfect sense, but hasn't been my experience. The better places that put price tags on the bikes, and the best places that don't add a bunch of extra fees to said tags seem to move the lowest volume. The snakes that hide the price, blow them up when they sit you down, and offer nothing on trades sell tons more bikes. I don't get it, but apparently there's more to sales than honesty.
Hey Matt, I think you are spot on with all the content. My first motorcycle purchase was with my local dealership. I live in Mission Viejo, CA so there are two local dealerships in my area. It was a bad experience going to my local dealership. (real bad) I looked around and discovered Laidlaws in Baldwin Park, CA (your family owned dealership) I purchased 5 motorcycles between 2021 and 2022 from your dealership. I agree with you, I never go back to any place that I feel is not fair with pricing or the way I was treated. Even though your dealership is more than 100 miles round trip. I am willing to give my business to the Company or Store that has fair pricing and treats there customers with respect. I always have a good time at your dealership. Also, yes everything has increased in price so I do not blame the motor company for raising prices. It's going to be a while before I purchase another motorcycle because of the hi cost of living. I will still continue to have my motorcycles serviced at your dealership because I can trust your dealership.
Thank you Matt.
The problem is, is they are not just raising their prices but lowering their quality. I purchased a 2020 Softail and 3 years later almost all of the Chrome or aluminum is pitting And it's never even been in the rain, it's kept under cover it doesn't ever sit in the sun, it's been very well taken care of and yet it looks like it's 20 years old. Higher prices for lower quality is a bad thing. I will not buy another Harley and that makes me sad.
Dealerships don't print the Monroney sticker, the manufacturers do that. In order for there to be a deal made, both parties have to agree with the sale price. Dealerships are the ones that may have a "market adjustment addendum", but it is still up to the customer to agree to buy the bike/car/product for that price, instead of walking away.
People overall have had a very long cycle of low inflation and near zero interest rates. The additional costs are on every product purchased today. Vehicles just seem to exaggerate the additional costs due to it being a larger purchase. 15 % increase on $10 is a much smaller number while 15% on a $30k motorcycle or $70k truck is a much more noticeable dollar amount.
I bought from a dealer who had a dealership mark up. How I got my money back out of the mark up was negotiating incentives that benefited me. I was able to get a $300 Motorcycle rider class, a helmet, luggage rack, bumper, K service, and etc. The point here is if a dealer is marking up a bike, then the question you should be asking, “Give me a reason to buy from you.” If they are not willing to negotiate, then take your business elsewhere.
This was the most honest up-front explanation I've read about the post covid price increases! Initial increase/surcharge because of increased costs. 3 years later surcharges have increased. The fewer bikes they sell the more they need to make on each one. That extra money and time are no longer pumped into the economy. So if sales keep going down due to unafordability they will raise prices even more.
One day there will be a 10% surcharge for the equivalent of 'General BS' or 'Because We Can'. That's when it will be over for HD. Great episode.
I think the high interest rates, coupled with the insane surcharges will result in inventory piling up this year. Yes, everything’s more expensive but these platforms are now six and seven years old. Desirability is low,
Compared to previous years, 2022s are still available at many dealerships, and prices are high. I don’t think the surcharge is ever going away. The dealers don’t get a piece of the surcharge so in all likelihood it’s here to stay. It’s the anniversary year curse lol. If they announce next gen road glides and street glides at the celebration, sales will crater on this model year. That’s my prediction.
You'll get a "high" interest rate regardless of the state of the economy, or your credit score. Motorcycles are recreational vehicles and you know and will have a higher rate as a result. I tell people who ask me about buying Harleys, or any other brand for that matter to ensure that they're capable of paying half the value of the motorcycle after trade. If they can do that, they can pay it off quicker and that should be the goal. It's the interest that kills people slowly and they don't even know it. The dealers thrive off of getting people to finance through Eagle Mark, it's how they get more bikes on the floor. They don't like it when you brake out a check book and get ready to buy the bike outright.
@@a.r.o7697the interest rate on my bike is 3.5% so no sure what you’re referencing
You're already right. Local dealerships here have ordered based on covid years when they couldn't get bikes fast enough. Now you can barely walk through the door there's ao many. Like nope, I'm just here to pick up some parts for my 23 year old dyna lol.
I think your exactly right. I was planning on buying a bike this year. After the online “reveal” of the models and paint schemes, I completely lost all interest. I’m not playing inflation prices on a bike I don’t absolutely love. I was expecting more from a anniversary year.
I did exactly what Matt mentioned. I didn’t buy anything from the only dealers in my area. I’ll wait another year or buy from the competition next model year.
@@Littlekoz I think the pricing is going to turn a lot of people off. That being said, Harley is already offering financing specials which is essentially a small price cut. If sales continue to lag, I expect more aggressive incentives in June if they plan to announce the two new bikes in July. I’m kinda excited for the VVT push rod engine. The Patent was first filed in 2020 and it’s kinda exciting that it’s finally coming to market. I think it was a bad move to bump the prices the way they did. Its gonna make it pretty hard to tack another big premium for the vvt bikes unless the plan is the vvt will be cvo only for the first couple of years. I’m pretty sure the next phase of euro emissions doesn’t go into effect until 2025 so they do have some time.
In Australia if you mod your bike regardless of who installed it, the law says your bike is null and void. This is how i lost all my court battles over warranty. I spent over $70,000 installing genuine crate engines and other mods on 3 of my Harleys at my local dealership.
I also installed quiet baffles mod by myself (which blew my engine) I didn't know quiet baffles could blow up my engine :(
I lost the court battle because modding power train or exhaust will auto null and void all your warranty but the dealership can still if they want to cover your other parts as long as they are not moving parts.
My engine blew up 3 times :( i finally got rid of it and bought a new 2023 Ducati V4S !
Even though i have spent over $500,000 at that dealership, they didn't even give a feck about me .... i was treated like a dog when ever it came to warranty. After how they treated me and over 10,000 other customers, the dealership finally shut its door because no one returned to buy or service at that dealership and that dealership was in Dianella WA called Frasers Harley. I bought over 12 new Harleys and Ducatis from them.
bike prices are now as expensive as cars, we decided to own only 2 super bikes and the rest on luxury sport cars.
Awesome Video Matt!! I'm a truck driver for a big shipping company. And a lot of customers are not shipping at high value and fast shipping in the last 6-8 months. The last 3 months from today (03/23/23) things are looking bad. Unless the economy takes a drastic change for the good? I don't know how prices are going to come down with production and sales. Unless HD streamlines and cuts more costs. I think the Bronx and any model that has cost the company big money with little return. They had better learn from those mistakes and not allow inflation and economy turning for the worst catch them off guard even more. But that goes for everyone else as well (people not understanding the rise in cost)
The $1200.00 prep fee the dealer charges is a rip off!
Bottom line HD’s are expensive and always have been. But so are most leisure endeavors. Anybody gone skiing lately? Snowmobiling? Golfing? 4-wheeling? Jeeping? The list goes on and on. Many if not most fun pass-time activities cost. And when it comes to big touring bikes they are all expensive. Indian, Honda, Yamaha when they still made one…all approach or exceed $30k. Gotta pay to play as they say. I’ve owned a few new bikes in my day but will most likely buy used from here on out. It’s hard to justify a bike that costs as much as a car. Fortunately there’s no shortage of used bikes out there. Keep the shiny side up and knees in the breeze! ✌️
First thanks for broaching the subject. My take as one who has been on 2 wheels for 45+ years, and operated at management level in the oil and gas industry.
Biggest issue I see is.... "Office Burden", the cost of employing those who contribute only in thinking and bean counting phase of a business has exploded over the last 40 years. Too much fat at the top. That is the corporate business model in most industries. 2nd issue is Margins.... 50 years ago, 10-20% margin was considered a good business model. Today, it is closer to 100+% margin. Your points are correct from your perspective. I look from value. Harley Davidson is a poor value. Resell is a fluid concept. last couple of years it has been up, but I suspect a crash coming in the used market. So for me, no new 30000 dollar motorcycle, that HDMC produces for less than $7500 a unit. ..... Plus, my gripe is why delete the Road King Standard?
Just quoted 30k for a Low Rider ST at my local HD dealer in Queens, NY! And I never indicated that I was in love with it. No pressure to buy that day, and will be test riding it next week.
Going to check out an Indian Chief Sport soon.
No rush to buy now, as I am ready to hit the road with my two 2006 MCs: Yamaha Roadliner S (1854 cc air-cooled V-twin) and my cult bike, a Honda ST1300.
I am not an economist, but am predicting low prices starting in November (or sooner) for 2023 models. And low, low pricing for 2024 models from the beginning to the end of next year.
My prediction includes all brands of motorcycles.........
Trying to get a price at a Harley Dealership is like pulling teeth . Even looking at their inventory on line there are no prices listed and when you call or email for a price quote they don’t give you definite answer or firm price .
Still hard to buy an HD, when they go for 25-30K. Just had to buy another brand, and pass the RK Special that I wanted. Just a middle class guy trying to raise a family, and love the ride, but HD has passed me up with that kind of money.
They probably lost a life long Rider as well
Where I'm at in NE plenty of dealers and all have the same markup and won't budge ,and all they want to talk is the monthly payment you want and not the out the door price. One even tried to tack on freight on a fn used bike.🤯
Sorry, but the prices have gotten insane, I have had 4 Harley's. Currently ride a BMW. Interesting how there's a big difference in how much HD has gone up vs BMW and others.
About 9 months ago I decided I wanted to buy a Harley. I had never ridden one, my neighbor let me ride his, and I was immediately hooked. Started with my local dealer and had a horrible experience and started branching out from there. 9 dealerships later, every single one was a horrible experience. I don't know how many hours I wasted getting jerked around. Would work out a deal over the phone or email just to go in-person and have them come up with some BS and change the price. Happened over and over again. Never dealt with so much BS trying to buy something in my life.
Ended up going to the BMW dealer. Gave me a good OTD price first time I asked, no BS. Let me test ride the bike without a nanny on a set route at 55 mph. Signed the paperwork and bought myself a new GSA.
I love HD motorcycles but the experience of trying to purchase one was awful and really soured me to the brand.
Great video Matt. The problem I see is the motor company is letting large MSO & private equity money buy family owned dealerships. They run them like car dealerships with a high turn over rate of employees & very hard to build a relationship with anyone. They love to mark up their bikes up-over msrp or put accessories on them to build a larger profit margin . My wife & I drive 60 miles to our dealership that is family owned like yours have dealt with this family for 20 years . Keep it in the family Bro
I bought a used Can Am Ryker Dealer and they slaid me withall kinds of charges and did it with such cleverness, I was caught unaware. Now they wont take the bike back.
I have walked out/quit working at dealerships that treat their clients like the way you described.
Here's something to think about. I've seen way too many dealerships rotate either owners or management, which does not allow anyone to build up that long or even shorter term relationship. I'm not sure if you have access, but if you can, see how many owners and managers/teams have been through the Harley dealership here in New Orleans/Metairie, LA. Typically with new management, they also bring in their own sales teams and often push out the older salesmen.
True Dat
I went to my local dealership looking for a Freewheeler. There are 3 of these dealerships owned by the same family in my city and they are known to not treat their customers very well. So anyway, sales rep was fine, we got along well and I thought I was close to a deal. Enter the sales manager. This jackass at all of 5'5" 150 decided he would try to intimidate me into something I didn't agree to and told him I wouldn't do. Bottom line, he cost his sales rep the sale and I bought used from an individual. I do however go to this dealership for clothing etc. because those ladies are always really cool but I will never purchase a bike from any of those dealerships nor do I get my service done there. Some dealers just seem to feel like they're doing you a favor by allowing you to spend your money there. This is a large reason I think people have a problem with the dealerships. Treat the customer right. It's not that hard. Thanks for the video. I live in Florida or I would definitely give your place a look.
I believe in transparency too, it’s not happening.
It's kind of hard to get a good rapport with any dealership because not one single dealership service center is willing to work on my Harley
Price increases are pretty much expected on everything but the bump to the Street Bob (and Sportster S) feels a little out of proportion. I do think the Heritage Classic still represents a good value.
Thanks so much Matt, great logical explanations, I live semi rural for sure and nearest dealership is 90 miles away, the deal w/my ST was only semi haggling, maybe some shell games but I went for it, theres been one instance where something was promised as a "I'll throw that in" as part of the deal, but when it came time to collect on that verbal promise, no dice, offered a discount on said item. Everybody else has been way cool especially in the service and parts depts. Anyways, now I'm rambling peace out !
I can relate to the distance part.
For years I was the guy that owned several Harleys without ever stepping foot inside a dealership, and now due to life and kids etc I'm a guy that has 1 bike that's being financed. I feel I got a fair shake from the dealership I got my bike from but I see plenty around me to indicate that's not always the case. I live in California and if I ever decide to finance another bike I will make the trip to Laidlaw, for one because I like Matt's UA-cam content and for two because I've heard good things from everyone who's bought there.
I have zero problem with dealers making their money, my problem is using deception to make more money.
I’ve bought at least a dozen new bikes and every time the additional costs were tax, title, documentation fee, freight and assembly. Those fees (not including tax) are usually around 1k.
Went to a HD dealership for the first time ever to possibly buy a new Harley.
The fees above the usual were out of control. After tax, the dealer included an additional 3k for freight and all the other fees.
What got me is the manager telling me the $700ish fee for theft protection was not optional because HD makes that theft protection mandatory.
I left.
From what I hear, HD finances almost anyone, so the dealers just play smoke and mirrors with patents and then people end up with a way overpriced bike.
I’ve been looking at used HDs in Facebook the last few days and it’s shocking how many people are stuck with these bikes. They can’t sell them because they owe so much more than the bikes are worth.
I think HD and their dealers need to rethink their strategies. The market is flooded with newer HD bikes due to the easy but expensive and long-term financing.
The issue I have with one of your point is that once you have a bad experience at a dealership it can turn you off to the entire buying process. I recently went to purchase a Road Glide Custom and the sales manager was such an arrogant douchebag that I walked out and completely bagged the idea of buying the bike at all. The last thing I meed os to drive to hours and risk having the same awful experience somewhere else. I think this new era of the MoCo convincing is that this is an almighty premium product has rubbed off on the dealerahips where they act like they don’t need the customers as much as we need them
HD prices are high....just like everywhere, but can you imagine living in CA right now? Insane, I understand why people are packing the U-Hauls.
A lot of unsavory predatory sales
If they’re not trying to “rip you off”, then why is the motor company worried about how much a dealership is selling Harley stuff online for and forcing them to only sell within their target areas? And each dealership has to agree to the motor companies online sales policies. Example, Utah Harley was selling everything online at a huge discount but was forced by the motor company to stop this past January 1st. The dealership obviously wasn’t loosing money. Makes no sense. It’s soured my willingness to keep giving Harley my money. I love my road glide ultra but when it dies, I’m not sure I’ll be in the market for another Harley.
Those dealers that offer that tires for life crap can add thousands on top of MSRP. Some dealers will overprice the bikes by almost $10k and even if executed properly, you manage to negotiate those $10k off of the OTD price, they’ll still try and get you with stupid BS tires for life useless warranty. I learned that the hard way. My Slim is upside down right now cuz of that! Can’t even trade it in now! Live and learn! Thanks for this video Matt. Very informative. Saves others from making the same mistakes 😔
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Yes!! Certain HD dealerships are Marking up prices over $8K MSRP prices 🤦🏻♂️😭
I think it’s not only the dealership as a whole that influences the buying experience but it comes down to the salesperson. I recently left my local dealership that I’ve bought new bikes off for 20 years and bought from another dealership a hundred miles away. Ironically it is a sister dealership to my local dealership. The difference was the sales staff changed at my local dealership and it wasn’t a good experience. Funny there was no markups at the store I bought from. I actually got some discounts.
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To your first point, if Harley Davidson was completely transparent with their pricing it would help them out a lot more. At best they are opaque, for example lets look at a 2023 Road Glide. On the website it says the MSRP is $21,999. Then if you scroll down to the bottom of the page, click on pricing, then you see that $21,999 is not MSRP, it's base cost of a black bike + $850 freight + $1000 surcharge, so your MSRP is actually $23, 849 for a basic bike. That's not including if you want ABS, RDRS, Premium Audio, or if you live in California. Just say from the beginning that the motorcycle is $23,849.
To your second point, there are three dealerships within 30 minutes of my house. Two are owned by the same LLC and the third is part of a larger LLC in multiple states. The first two were charging $5000 to $6000 OVER the actual MSRP when I was shopping for my bike. The second not only was not charging anything over actual MSRP but was extremely up front about the pricing and walked through all of it. Maybe it's because they have many more locations or maybe it's because the first company is greedy. There is no reason there should be that much difference in the price of the same bike from different dealers. This isn't just HD dealers, this is a pandemic across all motor vehicles, and there are hundreds of videos going over just how people aren't buying it and companies like Ford are thinking of doing away with the traditional dealership model.
I guess the overall point I'm trying to make is this, people feel like they're being taken advantage of. No one likes that feeling and people are getting more and more vocal about it.
It doesn't take anything more than a modicum of common sense to know if you're getting ripped off or not. Gut feeling? Trust it.
Surchages? Prep fees? Markups? Absolute rip. Corporate and dealer greed. No excuse for any of it.
Automobile dealers may be able to get away with this BS for longer as cars and trucks are needs, but for most, bikes aren't. Especially Harleys. The current jackass CEO wants to make the brand "exclusive" and "premium", well, guess what the first things to go are when people decide to stop spending money (or worse, the economy tanks and we head into a recession?) Non-necessities.
I think he has zero pulse on not only his own clientele but the market in general and is leading Harley down a very bad path of sky-high prices & dipping quality in an era where majority of people have less and less disposable income by the day.
Harley are over priced. To many hidden costs. Harley doesn't want to back there bikes up when they have a defect in them. I am pretty much done with Harley Davidson.
I don't have a problem paying MSRP because of the cost going up. The problem I have is when a Dealership tries to charge me 38,000 for a Sreetglide ST. They wanted my 2020 Streetglide special with 9500 miles on it with 6500 down payment and finance 11,500. I laughed at them because they are the ones that called me at home to sell me a bike. All I can say is that I wouldn't even be looking had they told me the truth about my 2020 Streetglide Special. I told them before I bought the bike that I needed the Clutch adjusted because the friction zone was in the wrong spot for my hands. They just said OK. I bought the bike and when I rode it home I noticed the Clutch wasn't adjusted yet. I later found out on my first service that it isn't adjustable because it is Hydraulic. So they pay me back with a deal like the one aforementioned. This is the story that I tell everyone now. How do you think that affects business for Harley Davidson. I'm still a Harley Davidson Fanboy admittedly so. I know there has to be someone out there that is willing to sell at MSRP.
You can buy a Timex or a Rolex, they both tell time. It just comes down to how much you personally want to spend for that ability to tell time. I just find it silly to blame Rolex because I feel it cost to much.
Love the transparency Matt, great video as usual. 🤙🏻
Thanks Shannon. Well said.
Harley ain't Rolex though 😂 you really gonna pretend like we think Harley is that high end? They still haven't even discovered led turn signals lol
And they will ripp your ass of i got ripped bad at Mike Bruno's Baton Rouge
I’m pretty sure my statement was comparing a Timex to a Rolex, with any Harley comparisons directed to the act of purchasing a more expensive item like a Rolex.
But words confusing and comprehension hard.
But let’s have some fun.
Let’s say I was comparing Rolex to a Harley. Both are antiquated technologies, both have performance issues if not serviced regularly and for the most part both are purchased for the look and status it gives the owner over technological advancements and reliability.
So yes, I guess the two actually are relatable. 😂
@@ridingwithyogurt Harley would be like if I had one of those sundials from before they invented electricity 😂
I am very much against dealerships adding a markup over msrp just because they can the customer effectively has lost that money and the normal depreciation the moment they leave the dealership as they won’t get it back when they sell or trade in as they will only get the “book price”. This practice long term will kill the business as people will go elsewhere or not bother the dealership would be better off trying to sell upgrades stage one or two , suspension etc not nitrogen in the tyres and overpriced coatings. I live within 30 miles of 3 dealerships two who I will buy from and one which I will never go to again even if they are the last Harley dealership in the country.
Solid info Matt. Those who want facts, hear facts. Not everyone does. You led them to water…
Is Harley raising wages for its employees at the same inflation rates that they are raising their prices?
I would love to have the option of shopping around, and i do have 3 dealerships within 100 miles. All owned by the same group. I mourn the small dealer.
Thanks for sharing Matt! I wish anyone who complains about price increases would google the governments CPI calculator. The first new Harley I ever priced was a 1976 Super Glide and it was $3600 (wish I could find one for that now). As of February 2023, that's $19,478 today. The closest comparable modern bike is a Softail Standard (with ABS, shipping, and surcharge) its $17k. Thats $2,478 LESS for a LOT more bike performance wise.
The other pet peeve I have is the old canard that Harley was a "working mans" bike. That '76 Super Glide was $600 more than my first new Chevy Nova I bought 2 years before. USED Harleys were a working man's bike back then. If you did buy a new Harley, you usually had to cut back someplace else like be single or married with no kids, drive a beater car/truck and/or live in a trailer/dive.
Part of me wants to blame this complaining on an "entitled" (I deserve to have it all my way) mentality some seem to have now. I grant that some dealers are shady, but when I sold Harleys back in '81, I saw how tight margins were. Some people think there is a "pot of gold" profit per unit. I remember a Super Glide made the dealer $1000 profit then (minus my $100...10% commission) And they had to pay the rent, utilities, staff, advertising, and taxes out of that $900. This was not the thousands of dollars I thought they made before I worked there.
Anyway, thanks for letting me rant a bit, ride safe!
@MattLaidlaw You should pin this guys response.
@@nicklabrie it’s a great comment, echos the sentiments of our podcast on pricing.
Matt, your dealership might not be ripping off your customers, but send some of your employees out and around Los Angeles and other areas "undercover" and ask them to try to negotiate pricing on new HD's from other dealerships, or ask your more discreet "friends" to do so, and get back to us with what the results are. No "inter dealership deals" or trades. Try trading in a used Low Rider S and see what they offer you, WITHOUT using their financing. See how much money you lose in 1 to 3 or 4 years on your trade in, then see what they list it for in a couple of months.
I'm an old fart. Going through another childhood. I've had 3 different Harleys in 7 years.
My gripe mainly, is why in hell doesn't Harley put a reverse in a 900 pound motorcycle!?
The dealership I use recently changed hands and there was a mass exodus of employees.😢
I was shocked by the new people's charge for a warranty check up and full fluid (oil) change. It went from $285 to $727. That's a bit much of a jump. Especially when I did a 3 hole change myself for $92.
I’m in Thailand. The situation here is very different. While overall motorcycles are more expensive over here. Average income are also very low. Harley Davison are out of reach for most people. Bike like a Rebel 500 or RE Super Meteor 650 are considered “dream bike” for many.
With all those reasons. Harley Dealership over here are willing to give customers very good deals. I just have a privilege to buy my first Harley last month, a Nightster 975. They gave me 15% price discount for the bike and 20% discount for accessories with free installation. That made my 975 cost cheaper than a Triumph Bobber and way cheaper than an Indian Scout, which is an imported bike here.
I didn’t even have to negotiate at all. Superb services here.