Top tip for keeping easy runs easy is switch your watch to heart rate only display and target zone 2 or whatever is easy for you, it gives you a target to aim for on easy runs.
Hey Matt. Dan here. So i hadn't run in 12 years a year ago i picked up running again at age 48. After 7 months of finding my legs i decided to run another marathon using Hal. Except this time i chose Intermediate II for the same reasons you did. With my base it was still challenging but doable. Im 5 weeks out from Grandmas Marathon as we speak. Running those Saturday runs at marathon pace are so good for the confidence building.
Hey, agreed. Right now I’m trying to wrap my head around whether I do a similar program next time around or try something a little different. I’m always up for experimenting and trying new ways of training.
@@WhatMatterstoMatt So here is what i have done with the program. Everything around my home is hills so Tuesday is generally 6 miles with hills. I try to keep the heart rate in check. Wednesday i switch around. Sometimes hills and sometimes I drive to an old railroad bed that has been paved. Nice and flat. Thursday depends on Saturdays run. If Saturdays run is at pace I usually take it easy and vice-versa. So two weeks ago was my first 20. I did an easy 10 Saturday and Sunday had my wife drop me off 20 miles from home. Problem was i didn't check the wind. 25 mph wind out of the west. I was running straight into it. By 10 miles in I was exhausted. I ran/walk the remaining. It was cold too. Summer just decided to come with all the heat and humidity so todays 10 will be hot. Im not much of a morning runner.
Hals Advanced plans have much more variety: Hills, Tempo, Pace, Intervals etc. Because I have just come off of a year of running ultras, I was easily able to step up to the advanced plans even though I will be running my first Marathon race this year. I've run much farther but at much slower paces, so I thought a marathon would be a good challenge to push the speed aspect of my running. Plus Hals plans are easily adapted to the 80/20 principle. If I don't get enough miles at a hard effort, I do a "fast finish" on my long runs. The plans don't include strength training, though, so I just add that to my hard days.
There is a lot to like about Hal's plans. You can easily see the progression from week to week. In the Advanced plans you end up with at least 2 quality sessions a week. Fitting in strength training into my schedule has been a bit of a struggle. I was a lifter before I was a runner so it's something I try to keep up but as my mileage gets higher it means I am spending more time running and have less time to lift. I think the simplest answer would be to figure out that whole time travel thing to make more hours in the day :)
I'm doing Novice 1 on the app and because I give music lessons on Wednesdays after work I put Wednesday as my rest day in the app and the app pushed my 2nd longish run to Saturdays with the long run on Sunday. So it's not just the intermediate that does that necessarily. I add short hills and strides to mid week E runs when I feel like it regardless of the plan. They don't hurt anything and help increase turnover.
Very interesting. I really did not end up using the app much so that is good information to have. I am a fan of adding strides at the end of a lot of my runs. It’s nice to feel the legs turn over a little quicker and really, if your doing them the way strides are generally intended it should not have much of an impact on your recovery. I even found towards the end of my taper strides were a nice way to remind myself how to move a little quicker
hey man! i know I was itching to do another marathon the moment i finished my first and I bet you will too haha. I honestly have never followed training plans too aggresively. I always sign up for a race and then take a look at how much time I have in between and put together a plan, but things always come up or I just feel beat sometimes and take some extra rest. And yes, it's so hard to teach yourself to run slow haha. good luck! excited to see how you progress!
You are probably right. I’ve already looked ahead to what’s next and the only thing holding me back is not knowing how much time I need to give myself to fully recover before building towards the next one. I have a race or two in mind for the fall and will do like you mentioned and look at the date of the race and work backwards in my calendar from there. Thanks for the support. Just a couple of days out now. 😬
I recommend a 3-4 month period after marathon if the Maffetone method (check out floris Gierman Extramilest podcast). It’s how you get generally faster (build the engine ) , lots of slow running by HR. Then you do a training plan like you’re doing now and build on that base - get race specific. You can start this method at 40 like me and PR into your mid 50s. Awesome channel you got goin
Thanks 🙏. After hearing you say it, it does seem to make a lot of sense to give myself some time after this marathon to use Maffetone method and build my base. Lots of slow running to build that base will take a certain level of patience. If I’m far enough away from my next marathon I’m more likely to resist the temptation to push most easy runs harder than I should.
@@WhatMatterstoMatt I found myself doing the same thing. Once I switched for a couple of months and let go, I found myself over a minute faster at the easy efforts, and then when I picked up the pace, I was faster than ever. I too selected an intermediate plan right out of the gate so I relate
Hey, my understanding of the novice 1 plan (marathon) is that the majority of not all the runs are meant to be done at an easy conversational pace. The increase in difficulty comes simply from the increase in volume over the course of the program. The idea of the novice 1 plan is to help you get to a point where you can confidently run the marathon. Novice 2 plan includes some “race pace” work and these runs are meant to be done at well “race pace”. Even the intermediate kinda follow the same principle just an increase in volume with some race pace work thrown in there. It’s only when you get into his advanced plans where you start doing intervals, tempo work or hill repeats.
That’s interesting. A lot of folks had suggested Hal Higdon as a decent place to start. What sort of differences will I find in the Jack Daniel’s running formula or Run Faster by Brad Hudson?
@@WhatMatterstoMatt Higdon's intermediate marathon plans prescribe runs only at two paces: easy pace and race pace. By contrast, Jack Daniels and Brad Hudson's plans prescribe runs at five paces: easy pace, marathon pace, threshold pace, interval pace, and repetition pace. Each pace corresponds to a specific objective. The purpose of easy runs is to build aerobic capacity while minimizing injury risk; the purpose of race pace runs is to practice running at race pace; the purpose of threshold training is to improve the body's ability to clear blood lactate; the purpose of interval training is to improve VO2 max; and the purpose of repetition training is to improve anaerobic power and running economy (mechanics). Higdon entirely neglects three of the five components of effective training. Moreover, Higdon's plans prescribe that all long runs be done entirely at easy pace. By contrast, JD and BH's plans prescribe various types of long runs, including fartlek runs, progression runs, and runs with a few miles at marathon pace and/or threshold pace. As the books explain, even intermediate runners sell themselves short if they do all of their long runs at easy pace. Additionally, JD and BH prescribe strides or hill sprints at the end of many easy runs, whereas Higdon does not prescribe any strides or hill sprints. Lastly, unlike Higdon, JD and BH divide their plans into phases - BH calls them the introductory phase, fundamental phase, and sharpening phase, whereas JD simply calls them phases I-IV. Each phase corresponds to a certain training focus. These are just a few of the major flaws in Higdon's plans; if you read the Running Formula or Run Faster, you'll surely identify other ways in which Higdon's plans are suboptimal.
Thanks for the quick response. Definitely something for me to look into once I “survive” this first marathon. It will be the plan moving forward to include more types of workouts into my plan. What are your thoughts on Hal’s advanced plans where it seems like he is including repeats, tempo work, hill work into his plans?
@@WhatMatterstoMatt I'm looking at Higdon's most-advanced marathon plan. Problems: (1) No variation in long runs. For an advanced runner, many long runs should include fartlek work, marathon pace or threshold work, and/or a progression at the end of the run. (2) He prescribes weekly 30-50 minute "tempo" runs in which the pace builds up progressively to 10k race pace. These runs don't serve any clear purpose. Daniels recommends that steady threshold runs be limited to 20-25 minutes even for advanced runners. And the standard work/recovery ratio for threshold intervals is about 5/1. Also, threshold training is effective only if it is done at or slightly below threshold pace. Slowly building up to threshold pace doesn't serve any purpose. (3) No strides or hill sprints. (4) Not enough VO2 max training. Only the 800m workouts are VO2 max workouts - he prescribes them only once every three weeks. (5) The volume is way too low given that it is his most-advanced marathon plan. The long run distances are especially egregious - of the seventeen long runs, eight are at or below 12 miles.
Top tip for keeping easy runs easy is switch your watch to heart rate only display and target zone 2 or whatever is easy for you, it gives you a target to aim for on easy runs.
That’s a great tip. I find if my pace is there it’s so hard not to pay attention to. Thanks 🙏
Thank you for this. Will do this on my next long run.
How do I switch my garmin to heart rate display only and put target zone? Thanks!
Awe that's a really good tip
Been doing zone 2 training the past 5 weeks. Did this today and stayed within the zone the entire run. Made a huge difference not focusing on pace.
Hey Matt. Dan here. So i hadn't run in 12 years a year ago i picked up running again at age 48. After 7 months of finding my legs i decided to run another marathon using Hal. Except this time i chose Intermediate II for the same reasons you did. With my base it was still challenging but doable. Im 5 weeks out from Grandmas Marathon as we speak. Running those Saturday runs at marathon pace are so good for the confidence building.
Hey, agreed. Right now I’m trying to wrap my head around whether I do a similar program next time around or try something a little different. I’m always up for experimenting and trying new ways of training.
@@WhatMatterstoMatt So here is what i have done with the program. Everything around my home is hills so Tuesday is generally 6 miles with hills. I try to keep the heart rate in check. Wednesday i switch around. Sometimes hills and sometimes I drive to an old railroad bed that has been paved. Nice and flat. Thursday depends on Saturdays run. If Saturdays run is at pace I usually take it easy and vice-versa. So two weeks ago was my first 20. I did an easy 10 Saturday and Sunday had my wife drop me off 20 miles from home. Problem was i didn't check the wind. 25 mph wind out of the west. I was running straight into it. By 10 miles in I was exhausted. I ran/walk the remaining. It was cold too. Summer just decided to come with all the heat and humidity so todays 10 will be hot. Im not much of a morning runner.
Hals Advanced plans have much more variety: Hills, Tempo, Pace, Intervals etc. Because I have just come off of a year of running ultras, I was easily able to step up to the advanced plans even though I will be running my first Marathon race this year. I've run much farther but at much slower paces, so I thought a marathon would be a good challenge to push the speed aspect of my running. Plus Hals plans are easily adapted to the 80/20 principle. If I don't get enough miles at a hard effort, I do a "fast finish" on my long runs. The plans don't include strength training, though, so I just add that to my hard days.
There is a lot to like about Hal's plans. You can easily see the progression from week to week. In the Advanced plans you end up with at least 2 quality sessions a week. Fitting in strength training into my schedule has been a bit of a struggle. I was a lifter before I was a runner so it's something I try to keep up but as my mileage gets higher it means I am spending more time running and have less time to lift. I think the simplest answer would be to figure out that whole time travel thing to make more hours in the day :)
Also. I started taking recovery shakes immediately following longer runs and my recovery time improved.
This makes sense. Planning out post long run nutrition rather then just getting random calories can make all the difference
I'm doing Novice 1 on the app and because I give music lessons on Wednesdays after work I put Wednesday as my rest day in the app and the app pushed my 2nd longish run to Saturdays with the long run on Sunday. So it's not just the intermediate that does that necessarily. I add short hills and strides to mid week E runs when I feel like it regardless of the plan. They don't hurt anything and help increase turnover.
Very interesting. I really did not end up using the app much so that is good information to have. I am a fan of adding strides at the end of a lot of my runs. It’s nice to feel the legs turn over a little quicker and really, if your doing them the way strides are generally intended it should not have much of an impact on your recovery. I even found towards the end of my taper strides were a nice way to remind myself how to move a little quicker
hey man! i know I was itching to do another marathon the moment i finished my first and I bet you will too haha. I honestly have never followed training plans too aggresively. I always sign up for a race and then take a look at how much time I have in between and put together a plan, but things always come up or I just feel beat sometimes and take some extra rest. And yes, it's so hard to teach yourself to run slow haha. good luck! excited to see how you progress!
You are probably right. I’ve already looked ahead to what’s next and the only thing holding me back is not knowing how much time I need to give myself to fully recover before building towards the next one. I have a race or two in mind for the fall and will do like you mentioned and look at the date of the race and work backwards in my calendar from there. Thanks for the support. Just a couple of days out now. 😬
I recommend a 3-4 month period after marathon if the Maffetone method (check out floris Gierman Extramilest podcast). It’s how you get generally faster (build the engine ) , lots of slow running by HR. Then you do a training plan like you’re doing now and build on that base - get race specific. You can start this method at 40 like me and PR into your mid 50s. Awesome channel you got goin
Thanks 🙏. After hearing you say it, it does seem to make a lot of sense to give myself some time after this marathon to use Maffetone method and build my base. Lots of slow running to build that base will take a certain level of patience. If I’m far enough away from my next marathon I’m more likely to resist the temptation to push most easy runs harder than I should.
@@WhatMatterstoMatt I found myself doing the same thing. Once I switched for a couple of months and let go, I found myself over a minute faster at the easy efforts, and then when I picked up the pace, I was faster than ever. I too selected an intermediate plan right out of the gate so I relate
If you thought Higdon was monotonous, Maffetone is worse.
I just started the HH training novice plan. how do i know which runs are supppose to be easier? it doesnt specify.
Hey, my understanding of the novice 1 plan (marathon) is that the majority of not all the runs are meant to be done at an easy conversational pace. The increase in difficulty comes simply from the increase in volume over the course of the program. The idea of the novice 1 plan is to help you get to a point where you can confidently run the marathon. Novice 2 plan includes some “race pace” work and these runs are meant to be done at well “race pace”. Even the intermediate kinda follow the same principle just an increase in volume with some race pace work thrown in there. It’s only when you get into his advanced plans where you start doing intervals, tempo work or hill repeats.
@@WhatMatterstoMatt thats sorta what I was thinking. Thanks!
slow is the new fast
If slow is the new fast, then I was built for this 💪
It is so hard to run slow
💯 it does seem though that when I convince myself to run those recovery runs and easy runs truly easy, I feel better on the harder days
Higdon’s plans are a joke. If you want a legit training plan, buy Jack Daniels’ Running Formula or Run Faster by Brad Hudson
That’s interesting. A lot of folks had suggested Hal Higdon as a decent place to start. What sort of differences will I find in the Jack Daniel’s running formula or Run Faster by Brad Hudson?
@@WhatMatterstoMatt Higdon's intermediate marathon plans prescribe runs only at two paces: easy pace and race pace. By contrast, Jack Daniels and Brad Hudson's plans prescribe runs at five paces: easy pace, marathon pace, threshold pace, interval pace, and repetition pace. Each pace corresponds to a specific objective. The purpose of easy runs is to build aerobic capacity while minimizing injury risk; the purpose of race pace runs is to practice running at race pace; the purpose of threshold training is to improve the body's ability to clear blood lactate; the purpose of interval training is to improve VO2 max; and the purpose of repetition training is to improve anaerobic power and running economy (mechanics). Higdon entirely neglects three of the five components of effective training. Moreover, Higdon's plans prescribe that all long runs be done entirely at easy pace. By contrast, JD and BH's plans prescribe various types of long runs, including fartlek runs, progression runs, and runs with a few miles at marathon pace and/or threshold pace. As the books explain, even intermediate runners sell themselves short if they do all of their long runs at easy pace. Additionally, JD and BH prescribe strides or hill sprints at the end of many easy runs, whereas Higdon does not prescribe any strides or hill sprints. Lastly, unlike Higdon, JD and BH divide their plans into phases - BH calls them the introductory phase, fundamental phase, and sharpening phase, whereas JD simply calls them phases I-IV. Each phase corresponds to a certain training focus. These are just a few of the major flaws in Higdon's plans; if you read the Running Formula or Run Faster, you'll surely identify other ways in which Higdon's plans are suboptimal.
Thanks for the quick response. Definitely something for me to look into once I “survive” this first marathon. It will be the plan moving forward to include more types of workouts into my plan. What are your thoughts on Hal’s advanced plans where it seems like he is including repeats, tempo work, hill work into his plans?
@@WhatMatterstoMatt I'm looking at Higdon's most-advanced marathon plan. Problems: (1) No variation in long runs. For an advanced runner, many long runs should include fartlek work, marathon pace or threshold work, and/or a progression at the end of the run. (2) He prescribes weekly 30-50 minute "tempo" runs in which the pace builds up progressively to 10k race pace. These runs don't serve any clear purpose. Daniels recommends that steady threshold runs be limited to 20-25 minutes even for advanced runners. And the standard work/recovery ratio for threshold intervals is about 5/1. Also, threshold training is effective only if it is done at or slightly below threshold pace. Slowly building up to threshold pace doesn't serve any purpose. (3) No strides or hill sprints. (4) Not enough VO2 max training. Only the 800m workouts are VO2 max workouts - he prescribes them only once every three weeks. (5) The volume is way too low given that it is his most-advanced marathon plan. The long run distances are especially egregious - of the seventeen long runs, eight are at or below 12 miles.
Thanks for your insight. Always looking for different opinions 👍