The Match in Question | Joe Perry vs Mark King | 2023 Welsh Open L128
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- Опубліковано 4 вер 2024
- Although there are some unusual bad shots, it doesn't seem conclusive proof. But you can judge for yourself.
Let's hope there is no connection to betting activities and that all was a misunderstanding.
Match date: 13 February 2023.
All statistics are as of the game date unless otherwise noted.
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King looks pretty shattered/rough here. Remember, it's not necessarily a case of King throwing the match, maybe he was unwell or hungover and his mates lumped on him to lose. One mate tells another who tells another etc. Therefore, suspicious betting patterns
Wait, it’s the suspicious betting patterns that are spotted 1st before the players suspect behaviour.
@@johnmc3862 I think they suspend betting before the match if there are irregular betting patterns
Judging from Mark's body language and expressions, the first thing that comes to my mind is that he was clearly having a bad day and someting else was running in his mind through the entire game other than the match itself. The shots that he missed don't entirely convince me as deliberate misses, cause similar shots were missed by Joe himself. I really feel MarK comes out clean from the allegations. Thank you Cesar. :)
It's called over compensating. It's actually quite hard to miss a pot by a small amount which is why he missed the pots by a long way. But when 10x the normal betting amount is placed on a score it's almost certain match is fixed . Especially a random match like this.
And I guess the scoreline is significant....... Hard to say lose 4 v 1 because then you have to try and win at least one frame..... but much easier to guarantee losing every frame...... however I'm still not saying the match was definitely fixed....... with the number of players now involved though it would appear that the situation certainly needs a thorough investigation....
Nothing wrong to me, nothing to accuse him of any wrongdoing…
Dude , that guy is clearly in someone's pocket.
Blatantly threw this game. But he didn't want to throw it.
@@FransBlaas1 I would normally say that but those misses where the worse I've seen
They both made some good shots, and missed some easy ones.
However, I can tell from the way Mark King held his facial expressions and his body that he's got something big weighing on his mind, causing him to miss those shots. I have the same thing when I'm in a match - if there's something else heavy on my mind during that match, something that I can't get out, I'll miss some of the easiest stuff.
I'm really hoping Mark's clean, he's usually such a positive character out there, on and off the baize. Gets quite a few laughs out of people with some of his antics, same vein as Mark Williams. We need that kind of good spirit and positivity, just as much as the sportsmanship and the integrity.
I really hope that Mark King didn't find himself in a situation where he had to lose 4-0 to Joe Perry in front of a crowd. Thats a terrible situation for anyone to be in.
I bet Mark was annoyed at how badly Joe played 😂
Exactly, I watched the start of this match and it looked like both were trying to lose the first frame.
It's a fairly depressing situation in snooker now, with so many players suspended
And one is still playing despite clear evidence... I'm talking about John Higgins of course.
Even if we ignore the clearly visible miserable state of King in this match - itchy, flinching, not taking his time over shots, missing by a mile (like brown to corner) and lacking confidence in stroke even on the harder hitting shots - the thing that stands out to me are his shot choices in a few key situations:
5:06 Deciding to stun into a red left him no connecting shot. Instead, he could have followed forward off one rail into the area between blue and pink, which would have given him a look at at least three playable reds to the right corner.
10:05 Choosing to try the black to corner instead of blue to middle. Playing blue with natural helping left side and a little bit of screw, then letting the cueball run off the baulk rail would bring him right into the area behind the two reds below the pink to pot them into the bottom right corner (where he tried to end up anyways). Black was also completely blocking the blue spot which made a mess-up by respotting blue close to black impossible.
15:52 attempting a very thick hitting, aggressive safety shot off the first red in his sight line instead of choosing the red behind it (from his pov) which would have given him a much greater chance at a successful safety.
20:53 The red he took on was potable into both bottom pockets from where it was. Attempting the long, straight red to the green corner instead with a little screw (or medium screw off the bottom rail) would have left him a lot better on the black while at the same time not giving his opponent an easy shot on a red if he missed this red to the green corner. Also: playing the shot he played with follow instead of screw would have brought him into a much more favorable area for potting the black to the bottom left corner with more opportunities at connecting reds afterwards.
21:06 finally left me scratching my head... Why would you ever try to play a black that way from that angle instead of playing on the red above the pack to right middle? The chance of him potting it and then having a good shot at a red were minimal.
Another small weird thing was 6:33, where following one rail instead of stunning out straight towards the next red would have given King a much greater chance of having an angle to work with on the next shot.
Weird.
5:06 is 100 percent suspect. No way would any player ever stun off a red to get position on pink or blue. It's impossible to play that shot. No pro player would hit that red. It's totally avoidable so that looks a deliberate mistake.
How obvious is it man…look at the red into the middle bag at 5.36, someone that’s never played could tell you he’s missing it right and he’s playing it with left hand side lol
12.30 did it for me. Running up to one red off a cushion when you are likely to leave a shot on the other one when you have a direct shot open to you.
@@bobsmithy9024 he was stunning into the middle red to get position on the next red though, although poorly and suspectly played? Your comment doesn't make much sense in that situation though cause he was on a red next..
Bloody hell. Are you Stephen Hendry or summat?
While I don't know based on watching the match here, not knowing how well or badly Mark is playing this year - altho I know I haven't seen him play once, so he's obviously not advancing far - but like others have said here, betting patterns don't lie. If there is a case against him, it'll be in those statistics, and not his play on the table.
I just hope it isn't true that Mark King is guilty. It'd be a pretty crazy stunt to pull in a year where snooker is obviously clamping down on match fixing.
Damn, their referee is Mike Ehrmantraut
Thanks Cesar for a reasonable and serious forum to discuss this.
The irregular betting patterns will decide this more so than the style of the defeat. That being said, there were some really dodgy looking wides, especially the one to the middle!...
Never had trouble telling the 2 players and the ref apart from the back of their heads as much as in this match! lol.
Imagine trying to throw a match when the other guy is playing rubbish :D
Imagine playing so bad that people accuse you of cheating, must feel bad :)
I thought he was going to Gamblers Anonymous for 20 years. Must have missed a few meetings before this match.
Totally normal match! I dont know what they were thinking 😂
No conclusion can be made after watching this video. Yea there's tons of incredibly bad shots but when a player is having a bad day it do be like that. Heck I have been a Ding fan for almost 12 years now, he plays like Mark King in this match for the last 7-8 seasons most of the time. Maybe WSC should also investigate him LOL i have seen him missed 3 straight red over the pocket in a frame before
A newspaper report says Ding IS being investigated. I totally agree with your take on his match play
"Recently, the Chinese snooker world has been very unstable. First, some well-known players were banned for cracking matches, and then Ding Junhui became the focus of investigation. This is really unacceptable. You must know that the strength of Chinese Snow players is very strong, and there is no need to play fake matches to ruin their reputation. For their choice, most netizens expressed their incomprehension.
"
Absolutely nothing suspicious about that match whatsoever. In fact, if you asked me which of the two were under investigation I would not know the answer. Both struggled at times and both made seriously bad misses. This, incidentally, is why the courts never look at the actual game when investigating allegations of match fixing. I mean, how many pots did Mark miss this match? Six? And Joe played well, especially to win the second frame.
Just pick up a cue and try this for yourself. You'll miss six pots on the spin all day, never mind six over a best of 7. As Joe said, I hope this is nothing more than a coincidence.
Clear as day unfortunately, you just need to look at Mark's body language and compare to any other game, he's much more of a battler than this and has far too much experience to keep playing simply the wrong shots nevermind the misses ☹️
Perry also missed by a long way 2 or 3 easy balls... I sincerely hope that King is not so financially desperate as to cheat
In the past he had big financial problems, but the footage can be seen as only a bad day at the office imo.
@@Mssmaimone Let's hope it is so... There is a problem common to many sports, a lot of money for top players, crumbs for the others.
He should immediately come out and protest straight away his innocence with anger.
That’s what I would do.
@@fredericpelloud7536 make them unable to afford to live and choose between giving up the game they love or having to leave it to survive.. and you can corrupt them.
I hope it's not.
I think I heard you're on about 15k unless you're one of the top players
There is a sophisticated algorithm that red flags any abnormal gambling patterns on matches. Snooker is an extraordinarily difficult game, made to look easy by some players, so it’s hard to judge whether there was match fixing in any particular match. I do recall a video on Mark King some years back in which there was open reference to a serious gambling addiction that Mark struggled with. If he’s been in serious financial straits recently, and felt compelled to cheat, I do feel some sympathy for him. That notwithstanding, snooker cannot tolerate any match fixing. It strikes at the very heart of the game, and must be dealt with severely. I hope Mark is found to be not guilty, but I suspect that’s unlikely.
Honestly I believe they're all in it together. Every sport is corrupt after all
What a cynical attitude.
@@sansovino4124 don't mean it ain't ture unfortunately
It's tough for snooker to take any ethical line on gambling.
The bizarre thing is that those that are approached to throw matches stand to earn more money than the wages the sport pays them for winning.
5:30 For me it was this one that gave it away.... its like he's in some snooker club playing with mates....clear cheat
Probably right to investigate but not presume any guilt.
This has been going on since forever. Snooker is so easy to _fix._
The shot at 11:40 to me looks like a deliberate miss.. it didn't even come close to the pocket!!
But someone needs to also explain the extreme betting patterns that are clearly the main cause of this suspicion, not simply his poor play.
mark king seems to be out of sorts he doesn't have rhythm and he is not punishing Joe Perry so I am doubtful if Mark King will make an impact in this game
Anyone who knows snooker and knows how Mark King can play and his mannerisms knows he threw this game. I really really hope I'm wrong, I've grown up watching him fingers crossed he wasn't. But I'm not convinced. Hopefully they can sort out match fixing it's ruining the integrity of the sport.
And initially I thought he was just MARK KING the table. 😅😅😅
It's no wonder some of them resort to match fixing, they're hardly well paid.
I had no idea of the context for this match while watching the video, simply the title; "The match in question"
As I was watching I saw shots that looked off by a long way, uncharacteristically poor shots for this level of play. If this match has raised red flags to do with betting or something else, I wouldn't be surprised.
King could have had a bad day and played like this; he is genuinely struggling right now. In fixed matches players run out of position or go in-off, especially early in the frames. The betting patterns will reveal the truth more than the table play.
When it comes to match fixing, the table play is never considered. It's just the match score and betting patterns that are of interest.
@@Steven-ze2zk But surely there are shots that are intentionally missed, because they are fixing the match...
Those balls didn't even threaten the pocket. It's actually very hard to intentionally miss a shot by a small margin as mark showed
@@Steven-ze2zk those misses didn't even threaten the pocket. I've never seen such easy shot's missed by so much .
I'm a new fan thanks to Cesar's expertly edited videos that have gotten me hooked. What is the purpose and effect of the oversize tip on Mark's cue? Is that called a "mushroom tip"?
To me, the body language and shots are just perfectly clear it was fixed.
Does this mean I'm right ? No. Am I right? Probably, yes.
Just my honest opinion
he will be ok john higgins only got a 6 month ban
I've been playing for decades and to me it looks as clear as day. I really hope I am proven wrong but, I really don't see that being the case.
Wow so many shots were sus in frame 2. Doesn't look good!
King must have been worried when he was in the lead in the second frame
For me it’s his safety play, shot selection and positional play that are questionable. Every time he had a scoring chance he would run out of position. He was taking on low percentage shots and he just kept setting Joe up
to his defense Perry played snookers on him for whole first frame...its hard to get rythm when you cant shoot at balls.Then frustration comes in etc...but still this match looked suspicious like we can almost feel his acting and guilt when he sit down after missing shots.
12:44 I was tempted to say King must have been delighted to see that red wobble in as if it had stayed out & he wasn't snookered behind the yellow on it, it would have looked really obvious if he'd have failed to pot the last three balls he would have needed to win the frame.
However, he was taking a huge chance with that lead in the second frame. Perry had to pull off a very good pink with the rest and if that had been missed, King would have found it hard to lose the frame and it not look suspicious as he'd have only needed the pink.
Is it concerning that there hasn't been a statement from Mark King regarding the allegations?
He was probably just trying to get as far away from Phil Yates as quickly as possible. I know I would be.
Yeah Yates loves his stats way too much
Both the players has to quit the game permanently
I think king might have taken some pills or may be drunked because his body language and his stance and his cue action is not normal he seems to be struggling with the cue action and this is not looking like fixed because he is not looking normal to me
This to me is as clear as day match-fixing wise. Some of them misses were just embarrassing.
if you want to fix a match make the red with no shape,
20:06
I've never seen a worse positional shot than that. Ever. If anyone looked like they were playing to miss it was Perry. 😂 And he won. Lol
Sorry, just don't agree. I thought he just had a Bad day.
The reds to the middle, missed by a country mile. Too many shots missed by too far a margin. Plus his positional play was deliberately bad, sometimes not even taking the right shot on
The league must have better evidence then this.Yes he missed some questionable pots,but he looked befuddled more then anything else.There were times he was muttering to himself and shaking his head like he was battling some inner demons.
This isn't the evidence. The evidence is the irregular patterns of betting on this match.
I don't really see all that much and I wouldn't call out anybody. The only other thing I will say after 50 odd years of watching, if somebody wanted to lose deliberately I don't think it's actually that difficult. There is very little between all these top players.They know all the shots and in a lot normal frames the difference between winning and losing are tiny fractions. So to deliberately miss or play a poor positional shot and make it look relatively normal isn't that difficult. Mark King is also quite inconsistent so I do not see any issue here.
It’s difficult to imagine in a televised match you would make such obvious mistakes for devious purposes when recent cheating has been so highly publicised.
every criminal thinks he is the sharpest tool in the shed
From 1986 started my love for the game, then called a gentleman’s sport because the audience was educated and the players called for their own faults.. the audience was fan for Stephen Hendry, Steve Davis and so on, applauding their skills, different from nowadays where the audience screams as if they watch a soccer game and no more fans for a player but hoping the one they gambled on wins.. Barney Hearns promoted the gambling and players have to endure this all. Now UA-cam judges them on fixing games… How far did it decline..
I had to practice as a referee on the dutch open 1993 the game of Mark King, already bold, and Lee Richardson...
Shot at 8:34 is hard to understand.
So mark kings mate put 1000 for him to loose the frame, and made 4k,
Im personally not the biggest fan of Mark King anyway but based on this match and this match alone. I don't see how anyone could make these serious alligations. People may not be aware of this but some other big names in Snooker have been charged with betting irregularities, including Joe Perry and Stuart Bingham. Although Joe Perry or Stuart Bigham wasn't betting on there own matchs. I can only assuse Jason Ferguson has much more evidence than just these 4 frames for Mark King to be recieving a life changing punishment.
Well dodge
If he's throwing the match, why open the first frame, and to some extent the second, with such excellent safety? Surely safety exchanges are the easiest to muck up accidentally on purpose - just hit it too thick or too thin. Certainly wouldn't want, as King does, to keep tying your opponent up on the baulk cushion.
Nothing to do with "bad day at the office". For WST to suspend King they would rely on "off the table" evidence. Betting patterns, accounts used to place bets, communication records...etc.
I saw pretty similar mistakes from Ronnie O'Sullivan, specially during 2023 WSC against Luca Brecel on last session and on a lot other matches, like German Masters Qualifying 10 years ago against Thepchaya Un-Nooh. And everyone remember the pink at 11-11 in 2014 WSC final...
I was thinking the same. There was one game Ronnie v King about 3 or 4 years ago I think and I'm sure Ronnie led 3-0 then king won 4-3. That was so dodgy. I remember during that game thinking this has tobe fixed. Ronnie played horrendous
how good he played all the shots , apart from the ones he ´missed´ by a mile ! no question at all IMO
Mark does look tired and I don't think that there was any malice in his misses. In fact some of his safety play was still outstanding. I think that he has just had a bad day at the office. It can not be judged surely on this one match as to whether he is throwing the match.
I am still not skilled enough to see issues. But the look of it, both had some issues that day with what I would call easy by a pro shot. Keep them coming!
It's not simply a matter of shots he missed, it's the irregular betting patterns that flag the fix. It's not as though if you play poorly you get banned for match fixing.
@@jessejeffery4030 I am a snooker virgin, only know about the sport for 3 months. Live in America and not a complex sport like this is popular to the average person. Just learning and seeing if I ever want to buy a table, I think I would land on a snooker table. Seems to be the hardest game to master as a pool player, I think.
These missed balls mean absolutely nothing. It's betting patterns that are the clue.
Really sus. He did it
It's got to some investigation, 10 months on and still complete silence 🤔
Maybe im wrong but it looks like mr king have a Rouge day at the table
The only one thing that can save mark is the second frame he was well in front and if he don’t pot the l blue after potting the red with a freak knock against the blue abs it goes into the top pocket then imo he as to go on to win the frame but wow if it this was a crooked match joe Perry still had a lot to do to win the frame this is by far the main frame this could save mark as the blue ball was a freak of luck it went in wow how incredible one way or another this ball meant rurally massive
Think they might be just using him to take the heat off the Asian players. Trying to make it look like its not just Asian players doing it.
I think most of you are missing an important thing... this will have been flagged up by a bookies that doesn't want to pay out. Someone somewhere has bet a lot of money on a whitewash... or there's a sizeable culmination of separate accounts backing it... and that's going to be just as relevant as his performance. If in this match 50 x the money went down on a whitewash in comparison to every other match... instant red flag. They wouldn't have pulled him up just on playing shit.
Watched it. I actually think he didn’t play that bad. He nearly won frame 2.
Mark king has always suffered with gambling addiction. It's little surprise really
Don't know how u can cause of him fixing, when u see the second frame.
Both bad, but if u're fixing a game, u can't rely on the clearance from perry, it was a great clearance, to win on the black.
Not saying king is innocent but he'd be a genius to plan that clearance.
Cannot categorically prove it imo..
the fact that he was playing Perry - the most well known match fixer in the game - doesnt help his cause
Suspicious!
The shot into the middle at 5.36, you can see clear as day and night he’s missing it way right and he’s also got left hand side on it lol
Like Ronnie, Mark King just can't keep away from controversy can he? Has an appalling attitude and won't be sad not to see him play again.
All the suspicious play as already mentioned. He's not even hitting the knuckles on his 'easier' misses. The miss at 11.50 did it for me though. Not even close. I know he's bridging over it but a pro just does not miss those shots. 25 in front with 2 reds on the table? If that's not trying your damn hardest to throw a frame than i don't know what is.
If this match was fixed for 4-0 King would've been very relieved the blue went in at 10:32! HE came very close to winning the frame anyway. If Perry had left him a sitter later in the frame it would've been very awkward!
Anyone can miss anything. The bookmakers probably just lost money on the match and didn’t like it.
What´s up with that cue tip? 😆- looks like he´s robbed it off a pool cue at my local pub.
The game itself is really really weird but it's not just the fact he missed a lot of easy balls but there was also a lot of bet against him.... 😑 Ne need to be Sherlock to understand, it's obvious
If he did have 4-0 his arse must have been really twitching when Perry started missing everything in that 2nd frame. If Perry hangs that pink over the bag I am not sure how he gets out of that other than feigning illness.
He must have had 7 or 8 chances to win that frame and only really made one scoring contribution where a few may have fell in that he didn't want to fall.
Nothing conclusive in this game, at times they both struggled . Of course the betting pattern might show something different. But as far as the game goes, it's just another match where the favourite won.
The number of misses, the margin he missed by and the body language, which was clearly different to his usual state.
And the table wiping after the misses is over exaggerated. Not a great actor.
When it was 1st announced I said I'd wait to pass judgement & if this is the evidence I'm not saying Guilty
The man is cheating, end of 😢
They both want investigating watching that performance
I'm hard pressed to believe he intentionally fouled the blue in the second frame.
If the bookies don't win, you're in trouble.
Quite clearly threw this match. Body language so obvious. Whatever going on in his life his face tells a few stories. Very stressed looking.
I thought he played OK, a couple of bad shots but certainly no match fixing. Load of old tosh!
Last match whit Shaun Murphy, he made similarer misses. Shall he investigates also??.
First match of the tournament, table conditions were probably not settled, so tough playing conditions for both players - could be a possible explanation for the standard.
Interesting sequence at 3:08 - the way the cue ball stopped so suddenly was strange - clearly the pace of the table was an issue. Then King played an escape which looked really fast when the cueball was running, but he probably misjudged the pace of the table.
11:44 - seems unlikely. Overall, I notice the attitude/posture. Resigned. If you're playing a match you already know the outcome of, you're not as invested. And it shows.
14:18 - that break was awful
12:50 - this shot was a disaster as well
Though mark no where near ronnie's caliber but I like his character
It's absolutely impossible to be certain if a pro has fixed a match/game or not. That's why a player can't bet on a match directly or indirectly. Of course he could be fixing the match in collusion with another party, which is the most likely scenario, but it would require some solid evidence.
Worst positional shot I've ever seen...
20:06
What colour was he playing on to?
😂
Possibly playing to force his way through the reds, but didn't hit it hard enough for that. Not unusual
I doubt it very much; Mark seems to love the sport too much and having one only one title before (and seeing how he reacted to it) I doubt he'd risk it all over a few fixed matches.
Because Joe Perry isnt the best himself makes this tricky. The match is clearly fixed from Kings side but because he had to miss some really easy screamers to let Joe in kinda gives it away.
Match fixing is in all sports, snooker is no different. I'm not sure about this match, but in the end there are some very smart investigators who will find out the truth. A real shame if this is true about Mark.
No I don't think he cheated... I think he's massively depressed. And the odds aren't gonna be that good for a King loss. Perry was favourite here. Plus he thanked the crowd on his way out.. to me, on a psychological level, shows he's not ashamed.. as you would be HAD you cheated. He might have earned only 10k last season, but that's on top of his 25k flat wage.
Bonjour, j'ai bien regardé ses tirs et cela donne l'impression qu'il manque volontairement ses tirs et a plusieurs reprises cela pose question , surtout pour un joueur de ce niveau.
Hello, I looked at his shots and it gives the impression that he deliberately misses his shots and several times it raises questions, especially for a player of this level.