If Self did exist in multiple forms, that would’ve multiplied the work needed to design/draw/model/animate it compared to a character with only one form. So cutting such a character would be an easy way to save a chunk of time and effort all at once.
@@shelbybayer200 Even just two seperate finished 3D models can take hours and hours of labor, especially if there's a chance there was more than one form or changes in details for each of those two models and if there's a change in voice acting (far less likely but still possible depending on how individual they'd wanted Self for each of the kids) then that takes even longer, and if there's any severe bugging with beta models that bodes poorly to how worth it Self would have been to keep. Ultimately with many hours of work at stake and a game that looked like it was progressing past the need for Self, it really is an understandable cut for a character that may have needed more than one model alone, even just two... Modeling is very time consuming, then rigging and animating is even more work. To do that two-fold is more intensive than it seems you understand.
I think it's interesting you've already associated Claris and Elliot each with a particular set of the collectibles. It's obvious why, with Claris' having more feminine "hair" and Elliot's having harsher looking horns, but looking at them side-by-side it makes me think they may be the opposite. The point on top of the former set appears to mirror Elliot's hair, while the horns of the latter could represent Claris' ponytail; in both cases, one of the dreamers' hairstyles are adapted into the iconic harlequin-style head decorations of the first level nightmarens. I believe that Selph is supposed to appear more masculine for Claris, and more feminine for Elliot, representing their animus and anima respectively, which in Jungian psychology can be taken as representative of the true Self.
Reaching towards this, I noticed that the colors of the emblems seemed like abnormal choices. If you invert Self's colors, the horned one is Claris' hair's pink and the pointed one is Elliot's pants' green. The stripes also resemble the opposite character with opposite sensibilities. Claris' shirt's orange and Elliot's hair's blue. They are reflections, after all.
A new lead?! NiGHTs fandom SCHMOOVIN. Lol but seriously, love these updates DiGi, keep em coming, very happy to see the passion for Nights bear so much fruit
I was thinking that it could be possible that the prototype builds of Sonic X-Treme could be hiding unused/unseen assets for NiGHTS into dreams, specifically the July 18th 1996 prototype as that build utilizes the NiGHTS engine. It's also possible that maybe Sonic Jam or Burning Rangers have unused NiGHTS data but that's really stretching it
They've actually already been datamined (the X-treme protos) at least all the ones we have available, if we find another one we might actually be able to find Self!
It’s definitely worth looking through, the X-treme only had the engine for a short time since the Nights team had a shit fit because they had access at all
@@xinus2286 Honestly I'd have a shit-fit if some dev takes and attempts to essentially lampoon my engine that i spent hard work on being recycled for a shitty project for a shitty game that was dead on arrival too.
I think that both Self and the 3d models are directly connected to the A-Life system. The A-Life system is almost irrelevant in the final version of the game, despite its complexity and all the effort involved. It's possible that Nights' alignment could change as the nightopians were happy and Nights' shape would change to reflect that alignment, similar to how Megaman changes color in Megaman 64/Legends. The same could happen with Self or maybe just Self would have their shape changed to reflect the player's alignment. Eitherway, the final Nights design kind of resambles a middle point between both 3d icons. Maybe the chao having evil and angelic forms on Sonic Adventure 2 was directly inspired by this concept, since the chao are basically A-Life 2.0 Also, maybe it's me, but Self's head looks similar in shape to the Nightopians without the Aureola. Maybe this is an indication that the icon represents a "neutral" design, being able to have an angelic or evil form depending on the player's alignment.
My only gripe with the idea that NiGHTS' design changing as part of the A-Life system is the complete lack of any sort of concept art depicting a design for NiGHTS that resembles either emblem. Self not having any art revealed makes sense because there's been a pretty clear push to keep everything about them under wraps. Of course the idea might not have made it far enough to have concept art developed, but I can't imagine it'd get as far as having 3-D modelled emblems without any concept art being made for it. That said, concept art could exist and it just might not have been shown to us at all.
Well, you technically have make the Nightopians happy in order to get a King Pian, so there is at least one reason to make the Nightopians happy... Now one thing I always wondered was if the King Pian's castle had a point besides looking cool in the levels...
@@megaxlex_ We have the Nights icon on the official website that looks like one of the 3d models from the beta, so it's very likely that at least some concept art was made. I wonder if we could convince Sega to release an Nights artbook or something with the concept arts they still have.
This is basically the same conclusion I reached. In the final product, A-life is just so weird of a feature. The idea that it would be finished and given so many weird, hard to understand details without getting scrapped implies to me that they had something really important in mind for it. Its just not the kind of thing a team that was low on time would've done so much with otherwise, at least thats what I think
The NiGHTS community is on fire right now, I am so happy. The dedication to finding a cut feature from an obscure 25 year old Sega Saturn game is just amazing. I love the internet.
I absolutelyj loved that documentary so much. When I saw the Self boss Icon am I the only who thinks it looks like a NiGHTS facing the side? I hope one day we will find Self.
I still think there must be at least one unreleased concept drawing of Selph somewhere out there. I don't think they would bother making assets for Selph before drawing Selph first, so maybe somebody could try to contact concept artists for Nights Into Dreams in the 90's? It's just a thought. Edit: I did find some early design concept art for Reala that has a side profile that kind of looks like the icon, plus some concept art for NiGHTS themselves from 1996 that has a side profile that really resembles the icon. I'm sure everybody has seen them before (I'm not really a big fan of the game series itself, but I'm enjoying the hunt) but I still want to point them out since Selph could really be a different self of NiGHTS. It's also possible that Reala's old concept was going to be repurposed into Selph. I'm not positive on any of these things. I'm just trying to throw small ideas around that may or may not spark something bigger. (While hopefully not making people go backwards.)
Can we convince Sega to release an artbook with concept art from the series like they did with Sonic? Maybe an artbook with concept art from several smaller Sonic Team games like Ristar, Burning Rangers and maybe Sonic Mania to help sales I think it would be our biggest chance A Concept Art of Self or of demonic or angelic forms from Nights would be enough to confirm some of our theories
Ristar being a Sonic Team creation is a common misconception. It probably comes from the fact Yuji Uekawa, who later worked on Sonic’s redesign in Adventure, designed Ristar.
@@anguset yeah. He fits right at home design wise but he's not a Sonic Team sibling. The other children are Billy Hatcher, Samba De Amigo, and I recently found out, Post 90's PuyoPuyo
@@anguset To be specific, Sonic Team didn't exist back then. But key Sonic CD team members like naofumi hataya, masafumi ogata and takumi miyake worked on it, so in a way it's a game "made by people who also made Sonic" Didn't know about Yuji, but yes, one more reason
More unlikely than you may realize. Ristar wasn’t actually made by Sonic Team, but his designer later worked on Sonic’s redesign in Adventure, hence the misconception.
Personally I believe that the bottom spike on Self’s icon is just their neck. 😂 I was surprised to see so many supporting the Chaos theory though so I didn’t want to mention it.
It looks like a downturned Hero Pure Fly-type Chao's head. (which is relevant because the Neutral Fly/Fly chao is a NiGHTS Chao, and the Dark Fly/Fly Chao looks like it has Reala's horn shapes and can actually be made to look more like Reala if you get certain genetic color highlights on it (I think the one that gets Reala colors is called a Red Two-Tone Monochrome)
Mad lad drx dropping a lore bomb for the self discovery just being "i also have another build" where people find these things still amazes me. Good luck to the search party from now on this seems to be the last push for what may be self.
Theme of a tragedic revenge might not be a typo. Tragedic is in reference to the theatrical genre of a tragedy. In this context it could be a reference to the fact that NiGHTS & Reala are siblings, hence their battle being a tragedy.
But then it would surely just be "tragic," right? I always figured that "tragedic" was an intentional portmanteau of "tragic" and "comedic," highlighting the somewhat absurd nature of their rivalry.
I still think Chao as Proto A-life and the Chaos/Selph connection has more weight. Look at the shape of the head, it's a Nightopian! Perhaps a grown up (more powerful) version...like how Chaos was to Chao.
That's my theory as well. I think the fight with Selph would have been the reward for completing the A-Life System chain of requirements and successfully breeding a King Pian. It's a laborous process requiring a lot of trial-and-error and the game never explains it outright to you, but there's no real reward for it beyond the addition of a prop castle to the level you're on. I feel like a hidden boss battle would have been a more fitting reward and maybe that was what was originally intended.
A few comments about the boss icon that's been written here have defenitely made me look at it differently! People commenting about the shape being similar to a Nightopian, how Selph could be a pun on Sylph and such, and now all I can see is a more mature Nightopian faced sideways with fairy wings on the back~ It would be lovely to find a picture of Self one day, but I am honeslty just so happy about seeing all these theories and people's imagination flow that it wouldn't make me too sad if we never did. The creativity that it has sparked is wonderful on its own ♡
I wonder if the codename "Selph" could be a pun on the word sylph, as in a fairy. This only came to mind after comments on the previous video drew parallels to the character Lumina from Sonic Shuffle, but even if their designs are unrelated, maybe Self's design could involve fairy imagery. The "neck/lower spike" on their boss icon looks like elf ears to me.
I would like to share some of my ideas in here. There is one comment I saw under the vid that said that Self's design looked like a grown nightopian. Now if you consider the boss emblem's similarities to Chaos 0, the chao coming from nightopians and the latter's resemblance to little fairies/angels with egg shaped heads, you could get the idea that Self was meant to look like an alien or more specifically, a mantis alien. Remember also that Self is a secret boss, so their design could have been made to be a complete contrast to Wizeman's, which is most likely meant to represent a big and angry mechanical god of thunder(A sky-father/Senex). I think Self would've looked like a slim alien like wind spirit with insect wings and ties to nature(like Pan, who I think has a connection to NiGHTS because both of them play a different flute. Though it might be more likely that this element is a reference to Peter Pan since NiGHTS is a being who has the ability to fly.) Now before you say that I'm under the influence, I would like to note that a lot of alien abductions are cases of sleep paralysis and that Chaos 0 from Sonic adventure looks like one, so to me, these are plausible inspirations. (Forgot to mention that the greek word pan means "all" from what I've looked at and that aliens can be used as a metaphor for separation from others. This can be connected to the archetype of the self since it is the whole of a person but the concept requires a fundamental separation from other people and things that don't make up that whole.)
Forgot to mention that if Selph is a pun on the word Sylph, then it makes the shapeshifter theory more believable, since like Chaos(water), Selph would be made of a classical element(if you are not the OP, it's air).
For me, personally, a visual confirmation of Self is more than enough. I'm more intrigued about how they look like rather than how their fight would've been tbh.
I dont know if I buy into the shapeshifter theory. It seems odd to me that Sonic Team would design a form of Selph that looks almost identical to Reala, and we already know there was some other content planned for Reala that would make perfect sense being attached to that set of emblems that looks like him.
I reinstalled the game and gave it a few more runs thanks to the last NiGHTS video. I really liked the clown nightmare aesthetic. Now I'm hooked. So don't let me down, team. I need to see Selph.
My theory is that the Self Boss fight would've involved a mirror, and Night's reflection would've been replaced by Self and the boss fight would've involved Self using Night's maneuvers against it and Night's would have to figure out a way to use the environment to defeat Self. This is worth noting, because I believe self would've resembled something like a serpent, and mimic the way Nights flies and stuff.
11:22 an alternative option for this that ties into the pincer theory from earlier. If Selph did have multiple forms, it is entirely possible that a pincer, or multiple pincers could be the only consistent element, and thusly would be chosen for the icon. Just an idea with nothing backing it up, but thought I should mention it.
while the build DRX has in his possession is promising, the fact it's 80-90% complete does kind of make me lose hope of finding Selph in there, since the E3 build may be even earlier, so a build that's more recent would have deleted most traces of Selph by that point great video btw!! love to see more of this case and your commentary
Its actually a 80-90% version of the E3 demo disc is what DRX said, which most likely means that this new disc is the one that the disc they actually used for E3 was trimmed down from.
Hey DiGi, I just wanted to say, I _loved_ your documentary on Self/Selph, your passion and enthusiasm for the matter was very apparent, and a few weeks after I posted my comment on that video, I actually did what I promised on that comment and played NiGHTS Into Dreams from start to finish, and had a lot of fun doing so. I had to play the Steam version because unfortunately my Saturn emulator of choice, Mednafen, really hates the controller I use so I couldn't get the analog stick to function (I prefer playing on a keyboard, having done so since early childhood, but NiGHTS was designed for analog controls, so...), but I definitely want to go back and master all of the stages , find all the Nightopian eggs and even try messing around with the A-Life system to change the music (though unfortunately there isn't a lot of information about it online that I could find, at least here on UA-cam...maybe YOU could make a video on it...). While I can't help with datamining projects because of my lack of technical knowledge, I really hope someday I'll look at my feed and see a video of yours saying that the community had finally found Self/Selph. Last, but not least, I also truly believe that simply _asking_ one of the developers who worked on the game about Self/Selph's appearance wouldn't be as dangerous as you made it sound, it IS a game from '96, after all, and Sega is more open to fan endeavours than a lot of other japanese developers out there.
Honestly I'd never even heard of NiGHTS until I got randomly recommended the initial documentary, and I've played my fair share of SEGA! But seriously though this search has me hooked, and I'd never have known if I hadn't seen the video. I love long form documentary style videos with a good narrator! And all this datamine stuff is absolutely fascinating to me as a total novice! Personally I was a big fan of the Self/Reala theory with the 3D model heads, to unlock the bonus battles at the end, because of the Reala Returns nametag, but then again all I really know of this series was the datamine stuff and the character reviews soooooo not sure my opinion holds that much weight? XD
1:55 That's interesting! I just learnt about "sora" from this. Before today, I only knew of the similar word, "ora!", I didn't know it could also be said with an s in front.
The self boss really reminds me of eleven the street fighter 3 third strike robot he could shape shift to and they both have a similar icon and similar headshape
This entire documentary sparked my love for the series again. I never realized how deep this investigation goes since I came in with JoD and my first time hearing of Selph was from an obscure NiGHTS creepypasta. You inspired me to do my own research and try my hand at designing Selph. Your morphing theory is not far fetched. It would give reason to why he was cut because it would be a pain to program two models (and possibly two boss stages) with two fully rendered art compared to one per boss which may be the reason his art is not there to begin with. Personally, I don't think Selph is meant to shapeshift too much as finding self involves the balancing of aspects in your life until you find true acceptance and happiness. So perhaps Selph had more to do with the A-Life system than the characters: ex) the more hostile you are to the Nightopians, Selph may read this as unbalanced behavior and become more aggressive to make the player realize what they are becoming. But that's just a theory like the rest of us. I hope somehow, someday we find the missing boss.
Just out of curiosity, do we have any idea of *when* in production DRX's "80-90%" build dates from? I am only asking because I know that it is commonplace for 'preview builds' to be compiled towards the end of game development with all or nearly all finished assets, oftentimes with functional debug tools, for the purpose of troubleshooting various bugs and issues.
I think it's a beta that's close to how the final game released. I could be wrong, but that's the impression i was getting from it being a 80-90% complete build.
regarding the side-profiles of the emblems (regarding the bottom one), I looked at it sideways (as in I tilted my head) & I could see Self/Selph's Boss icon with the protrusions coming from it.
Someone probably mentioned this already but tragedic is a word. It relates to tragedy, specifically in theater, so it fits with NiGHTS. Like how comedic relates to comedy.
I wanna say that I really, really appreciate the documentary vid you've done about NiGHTS and the search for Self/Selph. I remember ages ago reading about, like, the unused boss and how it could've had something to do with mirrors due to the "mirror staff" thing, lol, but I never really gave much thought about it after. When watching your other vid and you were getting at the decrypting of the credits render images, I was getting truly worked up for a sec as if something was actually found there xd NiGHTS is quite the special game for me, and one of my faves along the Klonoa games and Undertale. I remember seeing the game for the very first time in a videogame magazine that had a retro article about it, and despite seeing it for the first time, I, just, had this huge sense of nostalgia over it somehow. And when I finally got to play the game via the HD remaster, I just felt, like... so happy about finally playing the game, as if I was replaying my favorite childhood game or something despite being the first time... I love the characters, the settings, the dream world, just, even without words, I just could feel a lot of emotions, the final level when you have to fight Wizeman, the way it starts, it's just... tremendously powerful, along with the fantastic music going with it. I just truly love this game, I wish I could live it for real, perhaps in a dream, eh... Regarding Self, I kinda have a dumb theory myself about them: Is about the point where people were saying the second NiGHTS that shows up during the finalfinal battle with Wizeman is them due to where the file is located: What if those people were like sorta correct? Like, as their name and also the scrapped track's name imply, Self is about, well, the self/yourself and such, what you also explain in the vid. But, if instead of Claris/Ellis' self... is NiGHTS? NiGHTS is after all a Nightmaren that decided to go against Wizeman... Maybe Self could've been like a mirror boss with another NiGHTS, like, their true self or who they were supposed to be. Something like "You may deny it, but you ARE a Nightmaren! Know ThySelf!" or something like that, heh. Could be like Wizeman creates another NiGHTS, the one that was to be their subordinate or what and the two fight...? I dunno for sure, just like your Chaos' theory, well, this one's too just a theory, and kinda hope I'm wrong 'cus I'd like me to see a new char and design myself, ahah ^^;
Although not proof of anything, "Theme of a Tragedic Revenge" was repurposed in NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams to be a Reala Rematch boss theme. Without getting too much into it, there's a change made in the game's story if you perform well enough in every stage, which unlocked a few new bits of gameplay. One of those is a rematch with Reala. I doubt it was specifically rank-related in NiGHTS into Dreams, but the concept of a secret rematch with Reala based on the player's choices and performance is used elsewhere in the series. It seems possible to me that this could have been a matter of actualising something originally planned for the original game. As an aside on this, Reala is front and centre in Journey, but Jackal ~ the other jester boss ~ is nowhere to be found. It's possible that a fight with Reala would have led to a new fight with Reala, while a fight with Jackal would have led into a fight with Selph, assuming all the unlock requirements were obtained.
After looking at the pincer comparison, the image reminds me of a beaked creature with the beak open. It would be a massive beak, being a similar size to the head, itself. Something like a raptor without the curve.
I'd never heard of NiGHTS before I was recommended your video on Selph, but I enjoyed the watch very much, and I would totally be interested in more documentary style content coming from you!
Why do I feel like the end result of this search is gonna be a massive reflection of ourselves? Lol I remember getting into nights when I got a copy of Journey into Dreams for $10 at the supermarket before. The mystery of Selph is so interesting. I hope Sega is secretly making a 3rd game with Selph hidden in it somewhere because that would be an amazing thing to see if the search effort finds him.
Thanks for the update. Your Nights videos mean a lot to me as a person who only knew of the series beforehand. Im curious why you're not in the discord server, considering how important this all is to you
I was just rewatching the long video, hoping someday if not soon that someone will find a new lead, then, as if the universe had this all planned, you happened to post a new video relating to Selph on the same day just around several hours after I rewatched it! Damn Sega really trying to convince us that Selph “doesn’t exist.” Like some tease for us to either stop or keep going. I hope more people datamine Journey of Dreams more, out of curiosity. I wonder if Selph was brought up again to be used, then scrapped again possibly because the character still didn’t fit with the story in Sega’s eyes or couldn’t find a use for them in the story. Sometimes some devs could bring up past ideas and either scrap it again or use it. It’s mostly just a baseless guess though, but could hopefully inspire somebody to be like “hmm,” and try looking through detangling more of the knots if the knots are still present.
Thanks for showing us the backs of the 3d emblems. I shared the theory that it was backwards, though I was doubtful as that would mean the back of the head would have been unusually detailed. Been curious about Self ever since I entered the fandom many years ago, I'm excited that some more technically-minded ppl are datamining for it now!
idk if you cover this but my theory is Selph just had horns like jackle reala and nights but they went straight back. they all have variations of their horns
I could see the Reala bossfight theory coming from JoD, since there is an unlockable second bossfight with Reala in that game. A lot of JoD is very traditionalist to NiD, so could have been something to that.
Upon looking at the boss icon again what if it's not a spiked head facing left, or a Crab Pincer... But actually a Bird like creature with its beak wide open and eyes near the back of its head, Or maybe the bottom beak part is just the neck
@@marcellosilva9286 Yeah but theres still the possibility of the bottom beak part being a neck almost like it were a staff. Maybe Selph Didnt have any noticable limbs like with Wizeman or Jackal. And in theory would gain limbs if they mimicked the player And maybe the icon could also represent a claw and be a repurposed head of Selph. I know Im shooting in the dark but what else can we do with the current sparse information?
Only found out about NiGHTS through your videos very recently as I love digging through things in these type of games. In regards of that boss icon, I'm pretty convinced it's a side view head shot of the boss with the black spot being its eye and the head shape being similar to Night's/Reala's but with shorter points, unless it has one point instead of jester-like twin points like the other two characters which would make sense having them on a side view if that's the most recognizable feature of their design
I'm surprised not many are pointing out that you DO have a rematch with Reala in JoD, it may not be Into Dreams, but I feel like it could be inspired by the scrapped concept.. Theme of a Tragedic Revenge even plays during it and NOT during that game's multiplayer
I know it's 2 years on but I noticed something on the JP special sampler and e3 demo. Its hard to put in words lol but here we go.. On the character select screen, you have the three level icons either side for Claris/ Elliot and because Claris or Elliots character is in the middle of the screen in this build its hard to see but if you keep rapidly selecting between them, you can just about see the (presumably) final level icon behind them (twin seeds / wiseman) but it looks different. In the final, the icon is literally half of this symbol with a rounded off edge rather than the full, which is like a circle with a triangle top. It looks like at some point, one whole became two halves. I've been wondering, has anyone found these symbols in the datamine? It occurs that if this obscured symbol represented the final level then would there be two hidden symbols maybe either side of it (where wiseman symbol is in the final) for perhaps Reala Returns and Self unlockable boss battles perhaps? With two collectable heads in the beta, two hidden boss icons from the level select screen could be something buried in the files.
I wasn't expecting an update so quickly, having only watched the documentary a day or two ago. Hopefully we get some interesting information from the next demo disc, if it can be dumped properly.
Ooh... I wonder if the games that NiGHTS cameod in other games like Sonic games or officially playable in spin-off games have interesting datamine finds, well if people want to datamine them.
I'd start looking a bit closer at the Hero Fly/Fly Chao in Sonic Adventure 2, because the Neutral Fly/Fly is CLEARLY NiGHTS, and the Dark Fly/Fly's horns match Reala's but lack Reala's texture. The Hero Fly/Fly looks like it breaks the theme, but it looks a LOT like a stylized version of the Self icon if we interpret it as a head with hindsight. It has a somewhat upturned elongated head, and long feathery ribbons that honestly get REALLY COOL (and long!) when you manage to get a Chao who's a fully-grown pure Hero Fly, it looks like a fountain, a bit.
@@neoqwerty Is it possible to show it whether in files or 3D model form? If so please show it in any social media or website. It would be quite cool to see it. Also WHAT A REALA CHAO!? YES PLEASE! My favorite character hehehe. 😄
Hey there, it's me again. Just came here from watching the first video. All of the stuff I've said in that comment I still stand by. It's a rather long read (just like this one), but If you're interested, it's still there for convenience sake. To go over the points, though, allow me to talk about two things for this video: 1: I'm still interested in making fan art for this project, whether it's for an unsubstantiated theory that can't be proven, or a claim or piece of evidence that helps the Self (Selph) theory hold water (No payment needed, but if you do want to do something so generous, I plan to open up Commissions in a few days, depending on if the project I'm working on gets finished by then). As you said, the theory of the Chaos-esque design is only for fun, and I intend to do just that: A fun little speculation on what that idea would have looked like from your description. It's actually a fan theory that I love the most, even if it turns out to be false. 2: I still very much believe that Both Beta64 and Shesez could help you search for clues about Selph, or even just for new discoveries for the datamining community of NiGHTS' fanbase, in their regarded fields. While Shesez's involvement would be shakey at best, since he's only looking around the environment that's outside the player camera's point of view (though, that would help the datamining community out for finding out if the items they do find are actually in the game, just outside the camera's view), Beta64 is definitely your man. However, again, if those two wouldn't be helpful in your Search for Self, it would still be cool for them to maybe have a sort of shout out for what they do in their field. The world of datamining just seems endless, at this point, and it would be incredible for two or even multiple communities to work together in one shared goal. And what better goal than to discover more hidden secrets of our favorite Jester in our Dreams?
Question- if there were possibly two unique bossfights with Self, why isnt there 'Self for Claris' and 'Self for Elliot' placards like there are for wiseman?
7:52 Worth noting that it's still present in the remaster when you do the April Fools Reala vs. NiGHTS character swap easter egg, I managed to get it lol, more annoying is me having to repeatedly retry the level to get the boss fight again after messing up the first time Also for some odd reason I only just learned of the Saturn having a 2P mode lol (I've seen the screenshot before but just assumed it was lost content lol)
I know the NiGHTs esque head is the “correct way” to see it but the first time I saw the boss icon with no context, I thought it was a bird man of sorts, specifically how Plague Doctors are portrayed with the beak being the curve and the eye being the mask. I feel like it’s a bit of a Rorschach drawing in that sense with some people interpreting it differently.
Rewatched the documentary vid and some thoughts occurred to me (this is just me and my big but ultimately limited "game designing brain" speculating due to a bigger/earlier build not currently public or having any (currently) existing development notes from that time to work with at the moment): - Could the Reala we know now possibly be a rework of Elliot's half of Self's boss battle? -- He's more Masculine and NiGHTS has been noted as being genderless (even though they took on SOME more feminine traits in Journey) -- He somewhat matches one half of the unused emblem collectible set which COULD be connected to Self in some way since we don't see the other half's design used anywhere else -- A personal guess based on this idea, if NiGHTS is mostly purple, and Reala is mostly read, and if Reala MAY BE a repurposed "Elliot version Self boss", could Claris' version have been "mostly blue & more feminine"? I do find it strange that 2 of the collectible emblems have those colors but swapped, with the more Reala looking set having blue, and the other having red. -- Heck, this is just me shooting in the dark but all if this could maybe even be linked to the A-Life system to a degree. At least as far as like the idea of Self morphing based on who's playing. - Could the 4 emblems possibly have been set as "pieces"? Like you can see the whole emblem in the stage with it being transparent, but one part/portion of it be solid? I mostly just find it interesting that one half of each set has stripes, and the others don't. Brain is thinking 2 parts were each side of the "face", and the other 2 were each half of the jester/Nightmaren "hat".
I don't think your chaos theory is as far out as you do! This game dabbled in some concepts and mechanics that became more fleshed out in Sonic Adventure, like the Nightopian's similarities to Chao. Plus there's that theory concerning the other emblems with differently shaped horns possibly reflecting good or evil character growth, something that would show up in Sonic Adventure 2's Chao garden, your Chao could start to resemble who raised it the most. Naka led both projects so clearly that sort of mechanic was something he was interested in. Loved the documentary!
I watched this documentary and update video on repeat. There is so much information to cover and I absolutely adore all of your effort. Now I have come up with a theory. Kinda like your Chaos Theory: it's a far reach that can't possibly be true but kinda cool to think about. I find it weird Selph's development name is spelled with a "ph" instead of the official "f" spelling. I saw that mystery "blue door" have an angelic being on its side. My mind remembered something about the Self archetype being used to depict god-like beings. Now I am wondering if Selph was meant to be a seraphim angel because that type of angel is the most powerful and highest ranking angel, always seated next to God, and is spelled with a "ph" instead of an "f". I'm not fully sold on it, but hey whatever keeps the search alive and NiGHTS with more content. Here's to finding our lost boi!
I noticed at 12:40 if you glance at the top of that list, you can see 2 files named "Reala1" and "Reala2" respectively. This could mean that the theory of a 2nd Reala battle was actually true, possibly regarding the "Reala2" file.
Has DRX dumped that build yet? Or was that Journey of Dreams build he dumped a year or two ago the build he acquired and incorrectly assumed it was a build for the first game?
For the hand pincer thing I'd like to add a thing I noticed. All 2nd level nighrmaren bosses have their whole body represented in the emblem. Reala, as he is the only 1st level maren, is also the only one represented by just the head. Wizeman, being above all Nightmarens is the only one who shows what is basically a face-related detail, similar to if we had zoomed in a bit more closely, enough to easily see his eye. We know that Selph is the boss right between Reala/Jackle and Wizeman and we know that he's not a 1st level maren, but is also most likely above the power level of one, as he is disconnected from the Claris/Elliot split (like Wizeman is). But we also know that he can't be as powerful or more powerful than Wizeman as he's the creator/god of Nightmare, which would probably make Selph his creation too. So, what if the sort of ambiguity of the icon (is it an elongated alien-like head? Is it a hooded head? Is it a crab pincer) is actually an indication of power level? He is right between a 1st level maren (represented by a head) and Wizeman himself (represented by a hand)
I still stand by my thoughts I shared on the documentary that the unused icon looks a lot like some of the NiGHTS concept art? Like I wonder if it's possible they used those designs for Selph? Most of it's just early concept for Nights himself but it does have some similarities so I thought that was kind of interesting and it'd be fitting if they used an early concept of Nights himself for a character called Self. Don't really think that's any kind of lead, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.
If DRX couldn't dump the build... it has me worried it could have some corruption attached to it. Either with the startup process or some incomplete code somewhere else. I hope it's not at a technical level, and if it is, i hope it's repairable. Another concern is that, this is a later build than the E3 build right? I worry that, even if the dump is successful, it could have even less information due to it simply being a later build. I'm not a Nights fan, but lost character recovery is extremely interesting to me, especially when it's a community project, and even i get excited when it comes to new leads or new recovery breakthroughs, even if it's games I'm not familiar with or consider myself a fan of. I hope you guys get some more info in the near future, this has been really exciting to follow so far.
I think it’s worth saying that I don’t think Chaos Zero comes from Selph, but rather Kaiser Greedy from Ristar. Same head shape (sans horns), same character designer (Yuji Uekawa). Just thought I’d throw that out there!
I like the thought that the nightmaren emblems represent NiGHTS becuase I think it has some interesting implications for his character. The mechanic of collecting the emblems to unlock a boss battle seems to make more sense, but the the emblem with the more horn-like hat-tails just looks SO much like other emblems of NiGHTS that we've seen before. Regarding Journey of Dreams, it might be worth mentioning that sequels sometimes contain assets made for the previous game- and occasionally those assets weren't actually in the previous game. NiD stuff aside, there is some interesting cut content that's strictly JoD-related that's been found in there.
You know I listen to this at work but the emblem looks like a plague doctor mask. Not sure if that is possible though as I'm not aware of any theme of plague doctor matchs dreaming
This is the absolutely obvious answer which I believe. Must've been a palette swap of NiGHTS or sth like that. Way too much overthinking here i believe.
Wouldn't DRXs 80 - 90 % completed build not be what we're looking for? You stated we needed almost a prototype / alpha copy earlier than the 40% disc to see if there's anything Self related in there.
To me the coin icon associated with Self looks a bit like a side profile of the head of the NiGHTS character, his name is "Self" so it would make sense the boss would resemble the NiGHTS character
The theory proposed here kinda gives me two ideas of how the fight would play out. First idea is that it'd be similar to the secret boss from Sonic Rush, where you'd be constantly switching between the two main characters as the boss switched between two forms. In this case, the horned design and the 'hooded' design, with Self's attack style changing between the two forms (Horned would use more physical attacks like ramming into you and Hooded would focus on magic and projectiles, similar to Wizeman's fight). And it'd end with Self reverting to their icon's 'neutral' design for the final hit. Alternatively, as you mentioned, the emblems would unlock individual encounters with Self. Perhaps by finding all the emblems in a level, you could face off against Self after or in place of the main boss, as a sort of test of strength/skill. The 'fights' would be less about trying to overcome Self, but to showcase mastery of specific abilities; one encounter could be a race emphasizing the Drill Dash, another could be a 1v1 where you have to Paraloop Self (which would be the version of the fight associated with the icon). You're not just fighting/challenging Self, you're teaching yourself about your own capabilities to better *_know thyself._*
Personally, I was thinking it would look a lot like nights, but it would be transparent with the yellow eyes that we see in chaos in sonic adventures. But then again, the logo that we see could also be a placeholder as they did not model a full emblem for them considering they didn’t even know if they’d keep them in the game.
If Self did exist in multiple forms, that would’ve multiplied the work needed to design/draw/model/animate it compared to a character with only one form. So cutting such a character would be an easy way to save a chunk of time and effort all at once.
That’s what I was thinking. So probably concept art would be the best bet
It would just be 2
1- Boy dreamer Form
2- Girl Dreamer form
@@shelbybayer200 Even just two seperate finished 3D models can take hours and hours of labor, especially if there's a chance there was more than one form or changes in details for each of those two models and if there's a change in voice acting (far less likely but still possible depending on how individual they'd wanted Self for each of the kids) then that takes even longer, and if there's any severe bugging with beta models that bodes poorly to how worth it Self would have been to keep. Ultimately with many hours of work at stake and a game that looked like it was progressing past the need for Self, it really is an understandable cut for a character that may have needed more than one model alone, even just two... Modeling is very time consuming, then rigging and animating is even more work. To do that two-fold is more intensive than it seems you understand.
@@plutototoh 🤓
I think it's interesting you've already associated Claris and Elliot each with a particular set of the collectibles. It's obvious why, with Claris' having more feminine "hair" and Elliot's having harsher looking horns, but looking at them side-by-side it makes me think they may be the opposite. The point on top of the former set appears to mirror Elliot's hair, while the horns of the latter could represent Claris' ponytail; in both cases, one of the dreamers' hairstyles are adapted into the iconic harlequin-style head decorations of the first level nightmarens. I believe that Selph is supposed to appear more masculine for Claris, and more feminine for Elliot, representing their animus and anima respectively, which in Jungian psychology can be taken as representative of the true Self.
Reaching towards this, I noticed that the colors of the emblems seemed like abnormal choices.
If you invert Self's colors, the horned one is Claris' hair's pink and the pointed one is Elliot's pants' green. The stripes also resemble the opposite character with opposite sensibilities. Claris' shirt's orange and Elliot's hair's blue. They are reflections, after all.
Those are great points!
So much BS. Your parents must be proud. But indeed you're on par with the other more ones here.
Not to say anything about you trying to comment on Jung without knowing anything at all.
A new lead?! NiGHTs fandom SCHMOOVIN. Lol but seriously, love these updates DiGi, keep em coming, very happy to see the passion for Nights bear so much fruit
Maybe Self was the friends we made along the way
I was thinking that it could be possible that the prototype builds of Sonic X-Treme could be hiding unused/unseen assets for NiGHTS into dreams, specifically the July 18th 1996 prototype as that build utilizes the NiGHTS engine.
It's also possible that maybe Sonic Jam or Burning Rangers have unused NiGHTS data but that's really stretching it
They've actually already been datamined (the X-treme protos) at least all the ones we have available, if we find another one we might actually be able to find Self!
It’s definitely worth looking through, the X-treme only had the engine for a short time since the Nights team had a shit fit because they had access at all
@@WhiteCresentKnight yuji naka specifically had a shit fit, threatening to leave the company simply because somebody uses his engine.
@@xinus2286 Honestly I'd have a shit-fit if some dev takes and attempts to essentially lampoon my engine that i spent hard work on being recycled for a shitty project for a shitty game that was dead on arrival too.
Naka is known for being a notoriously shitty person to work with.
I think that both Self and the 3d models are directly connected to the A-Life system.
The A-Life system is almost irrelevant in the final version of the game, despite its complexity and all the effort involved.
It's possible that Nights' alignment could change as the nightopians were happy and Nights' shape would change to reflect that alignment, similar to how Megaman changes color in Megaman 64/Legends.
The same could happen with Self or maybe just Self would have their shape changed to reflect the player's alignment.
Eitherway, the final Nights design kind of resambles a middle point between both 3d icons.
Maybe the chao having evil and angelic forms on Sonic Adventure 2 was directly inspired by this concept, since the chao are basically A-Life 2.0
Also, maybe it's me, but Self's head looks similar in shape to the Nightopians without the Aureola. Maybe this is an indication that the icon represents a "neutral" design, being able to have an angelic or evil form depending on the player's alignment.
My only gripe with the idea that NiGHTS' design changing as part of the A-Life system is the complete lack of any sort of concept art depicting a design for NiGHTS that resembles either emblem. Self not having any art revealed makes sense because there's been a pretty clear push to keep everything about them under wraps. Of course the idea might not have made it far enough to have concept art developed, but I can't imagine it'd get as far as having 3-D modelled emblems without any concept art being made for it. That said, concept art could exist and it just might not have been shown to us at all.
Well, you technically have make the Nightopians happy in order to get a King Pian, so there is at least one reason to make the Nightopians happy... Now one thing I always wondered was if the King Pian's castle had a point besides looking cool in the levels...
@@megaxlex_ We have the Nights icon on the official website that looks like one of the 3d models from the beta, so it's very likely that at least some concept art was made. I wonder if we could convince Sega to release an Nights artbook or something with the concept arts they still have.
I love your theory!!
This is basically the same conclusion I reached. In the final product, A-life is just so weird of a feature. The idea that it would be finished and given so many weird, hard to understand details without getting scrapped implies to me that they had something really important in mind for it. Its just not the kind of thing a team that was low on time would've done so much with otherwise, at least thats what I think
The NiGHTS community is on fire right now, I am so happy. The dedication to finding a cut feature from an obscure 25 year old Sega Saturn game is just amazing. I love the internet.
I realy like your theory with Self being a shape shifter of some kind depending of who Nights is linked with, it would make a lot of sense tbh.
I absolutelyj loved that documentary so much. When I saw the Self boss Icon am I the only who thinks it looks like a NiGHTS facing the side? I hope one day we will find Self.
I still think there must be at least one unreleased concept drawing of Selph somewhere out there. I don't think they would bother making assets for Selph before drawing Selph first, so maybe somebody could try to contact concept artists for Nights Into Dreams in the 90's? It's just a thought.
Edit: I did find some early design concept art for Reala that has a side profile that kind of looks like the icon, plus some concept art for NiGHTS themselves from 1996 that has a side profile that really resembles the icon. I'm sure everybody has seen them before (I'm not really a big fan of the game series itself, but I'm enjoying the hunt) but I still want to point them out since Selph could really be a different self of NiGHTS.
It's also possible that Reala's old concept was going to be repurposed into Selph. I'm not positive on any of these things. I'm just trying to throw small ideas around that may or may not spark something bigger. (While hopefully not making people go backwards.)
Can we convince Sega to release an artbook with concept art from the series like they did with Sonic?
Maybe an artbook with concept art from several smaller Sonic Team games like Ristar, Burning Rangers and maybe Sonic Mania to help sales
I think it would be our biggest chance
A Concept Art of Self or of demonic or angelic forms from Nights would be enough to confirm some of our theories
That'd be pretty great tbh but I don't know how likely it is. Maybe a digital art book...
Ristar being a Sonic Team creation is a common misconception. It probably comes from the fact Yuji Uekawa, who later worked on Sonic’s redesign in Adventure, designed Ristar.
@@anguset yeah. He fits right at home design wise but he's not a Sonic Team sibling. The other children are Billy Hatcher, Samba De Amigo, and I recently found out, Post 90's PuyoPuyo
@@anguset To be specific, Sonic Team didn't exist back then.
But key Sonic CD team members like naofumi hataya, masafumi ogata and takumi miyake worked on it, so in a way it's a game "made by people who also made Sonic"
Didn't know about Yuji, but yes, one more reason
But would they still have selfs concept art?
I keep seeing Ristar or Metal Sonic in that boss icon. Ristar really has a similar look. I HIGHLY doubt that it would be related though.
I thought of Ristar too, must be the style the character designer liked to use at the time.
@@marcellosilva9286 And it was made just a year prior.
More unlikely than you may realize. Ristar wasn’t actually made by Sonic Team, but his designer later worked on Sonic’s redesign in Adventure, hence the misconception.
Personally I believe that the bottom spike on Self’s icon is just their neck. 😂 I was surprised to see so many supporting the Chaos theory though so I didn’t want to mention it.
It looks like a downturned Hero Pure Fly-type Chao's head. (which is relevant because the Neutral Fly/Fly chao is a NiGHTS Chao, and the Dark Fly/Fly Chao looks like it has Reala's horn shapes and can actually be made to look more like Reala if you get certain genetic color highlights on it (I think the one that gets Reala colors is called a Red Two-Tone Monochrome)
Mad lad drx dropping a lore bomb for the self discovery just being "i also have another build" where people find these things still amazes me. Good luck to the search party from now on this seems to be the last push for what may be self.
Theme of a tragedic revenge might not be a typo. Tragedic is in reference to the theatrical genre of a tragedy.
In this context it could be a reference to the fact that NiGHTS & Reala are siblings, hence their battle being a tragedy.
But then it would surely just be "tragic," right? I always figured that "tragedic" was an intentional portmanteau of "tragic" and "comedic," highlighting the somewhat absurd nature of their rivalry.
It's called tragicomic.
You both are "more ones" like everyone else in this comment section. Really incredible.
@@suprememasteroftheuniverse That’s just needlessly mean.
I still think Chao as Proto A-life and the Chaos/Selph connection has more weight. Look at the shape of the head, it's a Nightopian! Perhaps a grown up (more powerful) version...like how Chaos was to Chao.
Occam's razor for sure.
That's my theory as well. I think the fight with Selph would have been the reward for completing the A-Life System chain of requirements and successfully breeding a King Pian. It's a laborous process requiring a lot of trial-and-error and the game never explains it outright to you, but there's no real reward for it beyond the addition of a prop castle to the level you're on. I feel like a hidden boss battle would have been a more fitting reward and maybe that was what was originally intended.
A few comments about the boss icon that's been written here have defenitely made me look at it differently! People commenting about the shape being similar to a Nightopian, how Selph could be a pun on Sylph and such, and now all I can see is a more mature Nightopian faced sideways with fairy wings on the back~ It would be lovely to find a picture of Self one day, but I am honeslty just so happy about seeing all these theories and people's imagination flow that it wouldn't make me too sad if we never did. The creativity that it has sparked is wonderful on its own ♡
I wonder if the codename "Selph" could be a pun on the word sylph, as in a fairy. This only came to mind after comments on the previous video drew parallels to the character Lumina from Sonic Shuffle, but even if their designs are unrelated, maybe Self's design could involve fairy imagery. The "neck/lower spike" on their boss icon looks like elf ears to me.
I would like to share some of my ideas in here. There is one comment I saw under the vid that said that Self's design looked like a grown nightopian. Now if you consider the boss emblem's similarities to Chaos 0, the chao coming from nightopians and the latter's resemblance to little fairies/angels with egg shaped heads, you could get the idea that Self was meant to look like an alien or more specifically, a mantis alien. Remember also that Self is a secret boss, so their design could have been made to be a complete contrast to Wizeman's, which is most likely meant to represent a big and angry mechanical god of thunder(A sky-father/Senex). I think Self would've looked like a slim alien like wind spirit with insect wings and ties to nature(like Pan, who I think has a connection to NiGHTS because both of them play a different flute. Though it might be more likely that this element is a reference to Peter Pan since NiGHTS is a being who has the ability to fly.)
Now before you say that I'm under the influence, I would like to note that a lot of alien abductions are cases of sleep paralysis and that Chaos 0 from Sonic adventure looks like one, so to me, these are plausible inspirations.
(Forgot to mention that the greek word pan means "all" from what I've looked at and that aliens can be used as a metaphor for separation from others. This can be connected to the archetype of the self since it is the whole of a person but the concept requires a fundamental separation from other people and things that don't make up that whole.)
Forgot to mention that if Selph is a pun on the word Sylph, then it makes the shapeshifter theory more believable, since like Chaos(water), Selph would be made of a classical element(if you are not the OP, it's air).
Tragedic is a real world, albeit old. It's a more theatral one.
For me, personally, a visual confirmation of Self is more than enough. I'm more intrigued about how they look like rather than how their fight would've been tbh.
I dont know if I buy into the shapeshifter theory. It seems odd to me that Sonic Team would design a form of Selph that looks almost identical to Reala, and we already know there was some other content planned for Reala that would make perfect sense being attached to that set of emblems that looks like him.
I reinstalled the game and gave it a few more runs thanks to the last NiGHTS video. I really liked the clown nightmare aesthetic. Now I'm hooked. So don't let me down, team. I need to see Selph.
My theory is that the Self Boss fight would've involved a mirror, and Night's reflection would've been replaced by Self and the boss fight would've involved Self using Night's maneuvers against it and Night's would have to figure out a way to use the environment to defeat Self. This is worth noting, because I believe self would've resembled something like a serpent, and mimic the way Nights flies and stuff.
NiGHTS Fans: IT IS A RARE FIND OF A FACT!
Mirror Staff Theory: Wizeman actually giving us the finger
Me: Oh how rude Wizeman!
I still think Selph is like a darker version of Nights just because of Selph = Self
11:22 an alternative option for this that ties into the pincer theory from earlier. If Selph did have multiple forms, it is entirely possible that a pincer, or multiple pincers could be the only consistent element, and thusly would be chosen for the icon. Just an idea with nothing backing it up, but thought I should mention it.
Selph's icon kind of reminds me of a bird, like the tip of the beak is to the right of the panel. Like it's open and having a yell.
You are seeing this as well?
These are really interesting theories!
Also, thank you for the clarity on the 2P boss theme! :)
A new lead? Call me Selphish, but I'm _very_ interested as to where this might lead...
Ba dum tss
while the build DRX has in his possession is promising, the fact it's 80-90% complete does kind of make me lose hope of finding Selph in there, since the E3 build may be even earlier, so a build that's more recent would have deleted most traces of Selph by that point
great video btw!! love to see more of this case and your commentary
Its actually a 80-90% version of the E3 demo disc is what DRX said, which most likely means that this new disc is the one that the disc they actually used for E3 was trimmed down from.
Hey DiGi, I just wanted to say, I _loved_ your documentary on Self/Selph, your passion and enthusiasm for the matter was very apparent, and a few weeks after I posted my comment on that video, I actually did what I promised on that comment and played NiGHTS Into Dreams from start to finish, and had a lot of fun doing so.
I had to play the Steam version because unfortunately my Saturn emulator of choice, Mednafen, really hates the controller I use so I couldn't get the analog stick to function (I prefer playing on a keyboard, having done so since early childhood, but NiGHTS was designed for analog controls, so...), but I definitely want to go back and master all of the stages , find all the Nightopian eggs and even try messing around with the A-Life system to change the music (though unfortunately there isn't a lot of information about it online that I could find, at least here on UA-cam...maybe YOU could make a video on it...).
While I can't help with datamining projects because of my lack of technical knowledge, I really hope someday I'll look at my feed and see a video of yours saying that the community had finally found Self/Selph.
Last, but not least, I also truly believe that simply _asking_ one of the developers who worked on the game about Self/Selph's appearance wouldn't be as dangerous as you made it sound, it IS a game from '96, after all, and Sega is more open to fan endeavours than a lot of other japanese developers out there.
Honestly I'd never even heard of NiGHTS until I got randomly recommended the initial documentary, and I've played my fair share of SEGA! But seriously though this search has me hooked, and I'd never have known if I hadn't seen the video. I love long form documentary style videos with a good narrator!
And all this datamine stuff is absolutely fascinating to me as a total novice!
Personally I was a big fan of the Self/Reala theory with the 3D model heads, to unlock the bonus battles at the end, because of the Reala Returns nametag, but then again all I really know of this series was the datamine stuff and the character reviews soooooo not sure my opinion holds that much weight? XD
nights is an iconic game, glad you've been introduced by it
Definitely try out the game, it’s on pretty much everything from the xbox 360 gen and pc, it’s also on Sega Saturn (obviously)
1:55 That's interesting! I just learnt about "sora" from this. Before today, I only knew of the similar word, "ora!", I didn't know it could also be said with an s in front.
Considering the Boss Icon for Self is from the side I wonder if that implies they're different sides are a major thing with Self's Character.
The self boss really reminds me of eleven the street fighter 3 third strike robot he could shape shift to and they both have a similar icon and similar headshape
I love NiGHTS so much and had no idea there were others still passionate about these games. It's awesome to see your videos on them, thank you!
This entire documentary sparked my love for the series again. I never realized how deep this investigation goes since I came in with JoD and my first time hearing of Selph was from an obscure NiGHTS creepypasta. You inspired me to do my own research and try my hand at designing Selph. Your morphing theory is not far fetched. It would give reason to why he was cut because it would be a pain to program two models (and possibly two boss stages) with two fully rendered art compared to one per boss which may be the reason his art is not there to begin with.
Personally, I don't think Selph is meant to shapeshift too much as finding self involves the balancing of aspects in your life until you find true acceptance and happiness. So perhaps Selph had more to do with the A-Life system than the characters: ex) the more hostile you are to the Nightopians, Selph may read this as unbalanced behavior and become more aggressive to make the player realize what they are becoming. But that's just a theory like the rest of us. I hope somehow, someday we find the missing boss.
Just out of curiosity, do we have any idea of *when* in production DRX's "80-90%" build dates from? I am only asking because I know that it is commonplace for 'preview builds' to be compiled towards the end of game development with all or nearly all finished assets, oftentimes with functional debug tools, for the purpose of troubleshooting various bugs and issues.
I think it's a beta that's close to how the final game released. I could be wrong, but that's the impression i was getting from it being a 80-90% complete build.
regarding the side-profiles of the emblems (regarding the bottom one), I looked at it sideways (as in I tilted my head) & I could see Self/Selph's Boss icon with the protrusions coming from it.
Someone probably mentioned this already but tragedic is a word. It relates to tragedy, specifically in theater, so it fits with NiGHTS. Like how comedic relates to comedy.
I wanna say that I really, really appreciate the documentary vid you've done about NiGHTS and the search for Self/Selph.
I remember ages ago reading about, like, the unused boss and how it could've had something to do with mirrors due to the "mirror staff" thing, lol, but I never really gave much thought about it after. When watching your other vid and you were getting at the decrypting of the credits render images, I was getting truly worked up for a sec as if something was actually found there xd
NiGHTS is quite the special game for me, and one of my faves along the Klonoa games and Undertale. I remember seeing the game for the very first time in a videogame magazine that had a retro article about it, and despite seeing it for the first time, I, just, had this huge sense of nostalgia over it somehow. And when I finally got to play the game via the HD remaster, I just felt, like... so happy about finally playing the game, as if I was replaying my favorite childhood game or something despite being the first time... I love the characters, the settings, the dream world, just, even without words, I just could feel a lot of emotions, the final level when you have to fight Wizeman, the way it starts, it's just... tremendously powerful, along with the fantastic music going with it. I just truly love this game, I wish I could live it for real, perhaps in a dream, eh...
Regarding Self, I kinda have a dumb theory myself about them: Is about the point where people were saying the second NiGHTS that shows up during the finalfinal battle with Wizeman is them due to where the file is located: What if those people were like sorta correct?
Like, as their name and also the scrapped track's name imply, Self is about, well, the self/yourself and such, what you also explain in the vid. But, if instead of Claris/Ellis' self... is NiGHTS?
NiGHTS is after all a Nightmaren that decided to go against Wizeman... Maybe Self could've been like a mirror boss with another NiGHTS, like, their true self or who they were supposed to be.
Something like "You may deny it, but you ARE a Nightmaren! Know ThySelf!" or something like that, heh. Could be like Wizeman creates another NiGHTS, the one that was to be their subordinate or what and the two fight...?
I dunno for sure, just like your Chaos' theory, well, this one's too just a theory, and kinda hope I'm wrong 'cus I'd like me to see a new char and design myself, ahah ^^;
Although not proof of anything, "Theme of a Tragedic Revenge" was repurposed in NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams to be a Reala Rematch boss theme. Without getting too much into it, there's a change made in the game's story if you perform well enough in every stage, which unlocked a few new bits of gameplay. One of those is a rematch with Reala. I doubt it was specifically rank-related in NiGHTS into Dreams, but the concept of a secret rematch with Reala based on the player's choices and performance is used elsewhere in the series. It seems possible to me that this could have been a matter of actualising something originally planned for the original game.
As an aside on this, Reala is front and centre in Journey, but Jackal ~ the other jester boss ~ is nowhere to be found. It's possible that a fight with Reala would have led to a new fight with Reala, while a fight with Jackal would have led into a fight with Selph, assuming all the unlock requirements were obtained.
After looking at the pincer comparison, the image reminds me of a beaked creature with the beak open. It would be a massive beak, being a similar size to the head, itself. Something like a raptor without the curve.
I still maintain that Selph would have been a liquid metallic being like t-1000 from terminator. In this form he can reflect back like a mirror
1:09 oh, that's what it meant. What a lovely message.
I'd never heard of NiGHTS before I was recommended your video on Selph, but I enjoyed the watch very much, and I would totally be interested in more documentary style content coming from you!
Why do I feel like the end result of this search is gonna be a massive reflection of ourselves? Lol
I remember getting into nights when I got a copy of Journey into Dreams for $10 at the supermarket before. The mystery of Selph is so interesting. I hope Sega is secretly making a 3rd game with Selph hidden in it somewhere because that would be an amazing thing to see if the search effort finds him.
Thanks for the update. Your Nights videos mean a lot to me as a person who only knew of the series beforehand. Im curious why you're not in the discord server, considering how important this all is to you
I was just rewatching the long video, hoping someday if not soon that someone will find a new lead, then, as if the universe had this all planned, you happened to post a new video relating to Selph on the same day just around several hours after I rewatched it!
Damn Sega really trying to convince us that Selph “doesn’t exist.” Like some tease for us to either stop or keep going.
I hope more people datamine Journey of Dreams more, out of curiosity. I wonder if Selph was brought up again to be used, then scrapped again possibly because the character still didn’t fit with the story in Sega’s eyes or couldn’t find a use for them in the story. Sometimes some devs could bring up past ideas and either scrap it again or use it. It’s mostly just a baseless guess though, but could hopefully inspire somebody to be like “hmm,” and try looking through detangling more of the knots if the knots are still present.
Thanks for showing us the backs of the 3d emblems. I shared the theory that it was backwards, though I was doubtful as that would mean the back of the head would have been unusually detailed. Been curious about Self ever since I entered the fandom many years ago, I'm excited that some more technically-minded ppl are datamining for it now!
idk if you cover this but my theory is Selph just had horns like jackle reala and nights but they went straight back. they all have variations of their horns
One of the scrapped heads matches concept art of Claris which is interesting
I do appreciate these videos!
I‘m always so happy when you upload a new NiGHTS video! 💜🌙
3:20 Actually now that I think about it, it also looks like a scorpion stinger, a scythe or a cane topper.
that head icon/crab claw icon reminds me a little of void from sonic shuffle
This channel is underrated
I could see the Reala bossfight theory coming from JoD, since there is an unlockable second bossfight with Reala in that game. A lot of JoD is very traditionalist to NiD, so could have been something to that.
Upon looking at the boss icon again what if it's not a spiked head facing left, or a Crab Pincer...
But actually a Bird like creature with its beak wide open and eyes near the back of its head,
Or maybe the bottom beak part is just the neck
I don't think it's a beak because the bottom part cuts off abruptly, while the top part has an entire curve.
@@marcellosilva9286
Yeah but theres still the possibility of the bottom beak part being a neck almost like it were a staff. Maybe Selph Didnt have any noticable limbs like with Wizeman or Jackal. And in theory would gain limbs if they mimicked the player
And maybe the icon could also represent a claw and be a repurposed head of Selph.
I know Im shooting in the dark but what else can we do with the current sparse information?
Only found out about NiGHTS through your videos very recently as I love digging through things in these type of games. In regards of that boss icon, I'm pretty convinced it's a side view head shot of the boss with the black spot being its eye and the head shape being similar to Night's/Reala's but with shorter points, unless it has one point instead of jester-like twin points like the other two characters which would make sense having them on a side view if that's the most recognizable feature of their design
I'm surprised not many are pointing out that you DO have a rematch with Reala in JoD, it may not be Into Dreams, but I feel like it could be inspired by the scrapped concept.. Theme of a Tragedic Revenge even plays during it and NOT during that game's multiplayer
After watch the research of Self the music you guys found I have to add it to my music list. It gets me pumped.
I really hope you continue to do videos like this
I know it's 2 years on but I noticed something on the JP special sampler and e3 demo. Its hard to put in words lol but here we go.. On the character select screen, you have the three level icons either side for Claris/ Elliot and because Claris or Elliots character is in the middle of the screen in this build its hard to see but if you keep rapidly selecting between them, you can just about see the (presumably) final level icon behind them (twin seeds / wiseman) but it looks different. In the final, the icon is literally half of this symbol with a rounded off edge rather than the full, which is like a circle with a triangle top. It looks like at some point, one whole became two halves.
I've been wondering, has anyone found these symbols in the datamine? It occurs that if this obscured symbol represented the final level then would there be two hidden symbols maybe either side of it (where wiseman symbol is in the final) for perhaps Reala Returns and Self unlockable boss battles perhaps? With two collectable heads in the beta, two hidden boss icons from the level select screen could be something buried in the files.
I wasn't expecting an update so quickly, having only watched the documentary a day or two ago. Hopefully we get some interesting information from the next demo disc, if it can be dumped properly.
Literally purchased and played NID for the first time after your doc. Thank You :)
Soora would be そぉおりゃ！ Or Soorya!
It's often used in intense battle moments as a sort of battle cry.
Ooh... I wonder if the games that NiGHTS cameod in other games like Sonic games or officially playable in spin-off games have interesting datamine finds, well if people want to datamine them.
I'd start looking a bit closer at the Hero Fly/Fly Chao in Sonic Adventure 2, because the Neutral Fly/Fly is CLEARLY NiGHTS, and the Dark Fly/Fly's horns match Reala's but lack Reala's texture.
The Hero Fly/Fly looks like it breaks the theme, but it looks a LOT like a stylized version of the Self icon if we interpret it as a head with hindsight. It has a somewhat upturned elongated head, and long feathery ribbons that honestly get REALLY COOL (and long!) when you manage to get a Chao who's a fully-grown pure Hero Fly, it looks like a fountain, a bit.
@@neoqwerty Wow mate! That is REALY AN AMAZING FIND! 😃
@@neoqwerty Is it possible to show it whether in files or 3D model form? If so please show it in any social media or website. It would be quite cool to see it.
Also WHAT A REALA CHAO!? YES PLEASE! My favorite character hehehe. 😄
Hey there, it's me again. Just came here from watching the first video. All of the stuff I've said in that comment I still stand by. It's a rather long read (just like this one), but If you're interested, it's still there for convenience sake. To go over the points, though, allow me to talk about two things for this video:
1: I'm still interested in making fan art for this project, whether it's for an unsubstantiated theory that can't be proven, or a claim or piece of evidence that helps the Self (Selph) theory hold water (No payment needed, but if you do want to do something so generous, I plan to open up Commissions in a few days, depending on if the project I'm working on gets finished by then). As you said, the theory of the Chaos-esque design is only for fun, and I intend to do just that: A fun little speculation on what that idea would have looked like from your description. It's actually a fan theory that I love the most, even if it turns out to be false.
2: I still very much believe that Both Beta64 and Shesez could help you search for clues about Selph, or even just for new discoveries for the datamining community of NiGHTS' fanbase, in their regarded fields. While Shesez's involvement would be shakey at best, since he's only looking around the environment that's outside the player camera's point of view (though, that would help the datamining community out for finding out if the items they do find are actually in the game, just outside the camera's view), Beta64 is definitely your man. However, again, if those two wouldn't be helpful in your Search for Self, it would still be cool for them to maybe have a sort of shout out for what they do in their field. The world of datamining just seems endless, at this point, and it would be incredible for two or even multiple communities to work together in one shared goal. And what better goal than to discover more hidden secrets of our favorite Jester in our Dreams?
Question- if there were possibly two unique bossfights with Self, why isnt there 'Self for Claris' and 'Self for Elliot' placards like there are for wiseman?
7:52 Worth noting that it's still present in the remaster when you do the April Fools Reala vs. NiGHTS character swap easter egg, I managed to get it lol, more annoying is me having to repeatedly retry the level to get the boss fight again after messing up the first time
Also for some odd reason I only just learned of the Saturn having a 2P mode lol (I've seen the screenshot before but just assumed it was lost content lol)
Also more Documentaries from Digi would be a huge blessing! Love this man and his content!
I know the NiGHTs esque head is the “correct way” to see it but the first time I saw the boss icon with no context, I thought it was a bird man of sorts, specifically how Plague Doctors are portrayed with the beak being the curve and the eye being the mask. I feel like it’s a bit of a Rorschach drawing in that sense with some people interpreting it differently.
Instead of a crab claw, why not like, a bird mask? That could be a bird mask with an open mouth. Given the flight theme, it may make sense.
Rewatched the documentary vid and some thoughts occurred to me (this is just me and my big but ultimately limited "game designing brain" speculating due to a bigger/earlier build not currently public or having any (currently) existing development notes from that time to work with at the moment):
- Could the Reala we know now possibly be a rework of Elliot's half of Self's boss battle?
-- He's more Masculine and NiGHTS has been noted as being genderless (even though they took on SOME more feminine traits in Journey)
-- He somewhat matches one half of the unused emblem collectible set which COULD be connected to Self in some way since we don't see the other half's design used anywhere else
-- A personal guess based on this idea, if NiGHTS is mostly purple, and Reala is mostly read, and if Reala MAY BE a repurposed "Elliot version Self boss", could Claris' version have been "mostly blue & more feminine"? I do find it strange that 2 of the collectible emblems have those colors but swapped, with the more Reala looking set having blue, and the other having red.
-- Heck, this is just me shooting in the dark but all if this could maybe even be linked to the A-Life system to a degree. At least as far as like the idea of Self morphing based on who's playing.
- Could the 4 emblems possibly have been set as "pieces"? Like you can see the whole emblem in the stage with it being transparent, but one part/portion of it be solid? I mostly just find it interesting that one half of each set has stripes, and the others don't. Brain is thinking 2 parts were each side of the "face", and the other 2 were each half of the jester/Nightmaren "hat".
I don't think your chaos theory is as far out as you do! This game dabbled in some concepts and mechanics that became more fleshed out in Sonic Adventure, like the Nightopian's similarities to Chao. Plus there's that theory concerning the other emblems with differently shaped horns possibly reflecting good or evil character growth, something that would show up in Sonic Adventure 2's Chao garden, your Chao could start to resemble who raised it the most. Naka led both projects so clearly that sort of mechanic was something he was interested in. Loved the documentary!
great timing since i finished the selph video like, yesterday
I watched this documentary and update video on repeat. There is so much information to cover and I absolutely adore all of your effort.
Now I have come up with a theory. Kinda like your Chaos Theory: it's a far reach that can't possibly be true but kinda cool to think about. I find it weird Selph's development name is spelled with a "ph" instead of the official "f" spelling. I saw that mystery "blue door" have an angelic being on its side. My mind remembered something about the Self archetype being used to depict god-like beings. Now I am wondering if Selph was meant to be a seraphim angel because that type of angel is the most powerful and highest ranking angel, always seated next to God, and is spelled with a "ph" instead of an "f".
I'm not fully sold on it, but hey whatever keeps the search alive and NiGHTS with more content. Here's to finding our lost boi!
how in the WORLD did I miss this video and I am just now seeing it!?😭
I noticed at 12:40 if you glance at the top of that list, you can see 2 files named "Reala1" and "Reala2" respectively. This could mean that the theory of a 2nd Reala battle was actually true, possibly regarding the "Reala2" file.
It's awesome to see this effort is still going strong!
Weird thought, some of the chao in chao garden resemble nights and the self collectables there might be some clues to selfs design philosophy/colors?
Maybe the real Self was the friends we made along the way.
Has DRX dumped that build yet? Or was that Journey of Dreams build he dumped a year or two ago the build he acquired and incorrectly assumed it was a build for the first game?
For the hand pincer thing I'd like to add a thing I noticed. All 2nd level nighrmaren bosses have their whole body represented in the emblem. Reala, as he is the only 1st level maren, is also the only one represented by just the head. Wizeman, being above all Nightmarens is the only one who shows what is basically a face-related detail, similar to if we had zoomed in a bit more closely, enough to easily see his eye. We know that Selph is the boss right between Reala/Jackle and Wizeman and we know that he's not a 1st level maren, but is also most likely above the power level of one, as he is disconnected from the Claris/Elliot split (like Wizeman is). But we also know that he can't be as powerful or more powerful than Wizeman as he's the creator/god of Nightmare, which would probably make Selph his creation too. So, what if the sort of ambiguity of the icon (is it an elongated alien-like head? Is it a hooded head? Is it a crab pincer) is actually an indication of power level? He is right between a 1st level maren (represented by a head) and Wizeman himself (represented by a hand)
I still stand by my thoughts I shared on the documentary that the unused icon looks a lot like some of the NiGHTS concept art? Like I wonder if it's possible they used those designs for Selph? Most of it's just early concept for Nights himself but it does have some similarities so I thought that was kind of interesting and it'd be fitting if they used an early concept of Nights himself for a character called Self. Don't really think that's any kind of lead, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.
If DRX couldn't dump the build... it has me worried it could have some corruption attached to it. Either with the startup process or some incomplete code somewhere else. I hope it's not at a technical level, and if it is, i hope it's repairable. Another concern is that, this is a later build than the E3 build right? I worry that, even if the dump is successful, it could have even less information due to it simply being a later build.
I'm not a Nights fan, but lost character recovery is extremely interesting to me, especially when it's a community project, and even i get excited when it comes to new leads or new recovery breakthroughs, even if it's games I'm not familiar with or consider myself a fan of. I hope you guys get some more info in the near future, this has been really exciting to follow so far.
I think it’s worth saying that I don’t think Chaos Zero comes from Selph, but rather Kaiser Greedy from Ristar. Same head shape (sans horns), same character designer (Yuji Uekawa). Just thought I’d throw that out there!
You got me into this game im obsessed
I like the thought that the nightmaren emblems represent NiGHTS becuase I think it has some interesting implications for his character.
The mechanic of collecting the emblems to unlock a boss battle seems to make more sense, but the the emblem with the more horn-like hat-tails just looks SO much like other emblems of NiGHTS that we've seen before.
Regarding Journey of Dreams, it might be worth mentioning that sequels sometimes contain assets made for the previous game- and occasionally those assets weren't actually in the previous game. NiD stuff aside, there is some interesting cut content that's strictly JoD-related that's been found in there.
This is why any sega related community is the best.
You know I listen to this at work but the emblem looks like a plague doctor mask. Not sure if that is possible though as I'm not aware of any theme of plague doctor matchs dreaming
Selph sounds really interesting hope they are found eventually.
Is it not possible the Selph could have been a doppleganger/shadow boss?
Like a dark representation of one's SELF.?
This is the absolutely obvious answer which I believe. Must've been a palette swap of NiGHTS or sth like that. Way too much overthinking here i believe.
Wouldn't DRXs 80 - 90 % completed build not be what we're looking for? You stated we needed almost a prototype / alpha copy earlier than the 40% disc to see if there's anything Self related in there.
Bro i just had a dream where the only thing i remember was ME shouting "Sora". ts so crazy
To me the coin icon associated with Self looks a bit like a side profile of the head of the NiGHTS character, his name is "Self" so it would make sense the boss would resemble the NiGHTS character
I was extremely happy that the video did well
The theory proposed here kinda gives me two ideas of how the fight would play out. First idea is that it'd be similar to the secret boss from Sonic Rush, where you'd be constantly switching between the two main characters as the boss switched between two forms. In this case, the horned design and the 'hooded' design, with Self's attack style changing between the two forms (Horned would use more physical attacks like ramming into you and Hooded would focus on magic and projectiles, similar to Wizeman's fight). And it'd end with Self reverting to their icon's 'neutral' design for the final hit.
Alternatively, as you mentioned, the emblems would unlock individual encounters with Self. Perhaps by finding all the emblems in a level, you could face off against Self after or in place of the main boss, as a sort of test of strength/skill. The 'fights' would be less about trying to overcome Self, but to showcase mastery of specific abilities; one encounter could be a race emphasizing the Drill Dash, another could be a 1v1 where you have to Paraloop Self (which would be the version of the fight associated with the icon). You're not just fighting/challenging Self, you're teaching yourself about your own capabilities to better *_know thyself._*
Personally, I was thinking it would look a lot like nights, but it would be transparent with the yellow eyes that we see in chaos in sonic adventures. But then again, the logo that we see could also be a placeholder as they did not model a full emblem for them considering they didn’t even know if they’d keep them in the game.